Want to rant? This is the place to do it.
Open Thread #50
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on May 17, 2008 at 12:48 pm, filed under Open Thread. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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150 Comments
I wonder how the Republicans will explain this:
http://news.google.com/news?hl.....amp;tab=wn
So, having less snow in the mountains isn’t linked to global warming, right?
Why are the comments on the “Japanese kid gets golf ball in the face” thread closed? Is there a danger of that one getting too inflammatory?
I mean, it’s got everything I look for in a thread: potential unfair treatment of foreigners, media manipulation, a child getting hit in the face . . . I was really hoping for some lively debate there.
Thanks for the tip. Granfalloon. The post is back open for business now. I must have flipped a switch while I was trying to post a link in my last comment.
@2, does this include foreigners in the US as well or just you guys?
Americans whining about treatment of foreigners is the most ironic thing in the world.
The one thing I realized though is that even if you break the social/racial barrier in the US Americans among their friends are usually scheming, calculating and trying to fuck each other over.
And for that matter, relationships. I dated a half Irish girl from campus for a bit and she was so paranoid about men in general it was funny.
#5,
I think most women would be after dating you.
Out of respect for the grieving mother, I’m posting this here.
Pawi, this is why you should have contacted me. Now it may be too late, but my twelve-step program is always open to you. You will need my help when Marmot lets you back in the hole.
Piper, you probably should consider contacting me as well. pawis.conscience@gmail.com
Do it now. If not, I will hound you like the Others on Lost.
Three cheers for the ban on Pawikirogi - and here’s hoping that it extends way beyond temporary.
IMHO, you really ought to rethink your opinion that he somehow contributes to this blog. How exactly? He provides a balance? All he does is close his eyes and shoot at everyone in the “expat” room.
I know some will say that there are more than a few foreigners who visit here who do the same thing in the opposite direction and they’d be right. They are nearly as pathetic as Pawi. I say nearly because, while that type of individual tends to drop in here for a month or two (or - occasionally - three or four) and spew their irrational hatred before disappearing, Pawi’s been doing it for years.
How sad is that?
It’s as if his only reason to wake up in the morning is to come here and tell “the expat” how much he hates “him” (not seeming to realize - or at least acknowledge - that his static concept of “the expat” is actually a dynamic treadmill of visitors to Korea). A 21st-century Don Quixote fighting “the expat” windmill.
Again, I know there are non-Koreans who visit here and say nothing except how much they think Koreans are shit. But as I said before, they eventually move on. Pawi doesn’t. He just changes his id from time to time.
Mr. Marmot, I respectfully ask that you do us a favor. Do the blog a favor. Hell, do Pawi a favor. Make the ban permanent. Tough love. Make him step outside and smell the roses.
BumfromKorea adds something to the blog. So does cm, jimong, and - despite their (more than occasional) nuttiness - even wjk and baduk add something to the blog. I’m sure there are many more whom I am forgetting who add something positive to the blog.
Pawi does not.
If anything, he causes further harm to the image of Korea. One needs to look no further than the recent episode on the Michael White thread for overwhelming evidence.
The man is a hopeless caricature.
Did it have anything to do with you being “stacked”?
I think some people want Pawi banned because he quickly jumps to ethnic or racial stereotypes about certain groups, he mocks other groups, most of his statements are harsh criticisms or hateful attacks on those others or their group, and he makes no secret of his contempt toward certain groups.
If Pawi quickly jumped to ethnic or racial stereotypes about Koreans, he mocked Koreans, most of his statements were harsh criticisms or hateful attacks on Koreans, and he made no secret of his contempt for Koreans, he might be a popular guy at Marmot’s Hole celebrated for his wit.
Small penises, the women are whores, everyone here’s an idiot, hopelessly corrupt, most racist country, world’s biggest shithole… I don’t see how any of that is any better than what Pawi spews forth (not you, Iceberg), but it seems like few people here have a problem with it. Pawi is condemned only because he’s on the other side. (He did go too far with the grieving mother, but Pawi-hatred didn’t start there)
99% of communication is about style, and that little turd has none.
Not the first time pawi got the boot. As nulji-the-turd-maripkan he got the boot from Robert, who has been very very patient with him…
Iceberg’s comment above pretty much expresses my take on Pawi and this situation, but I’d add one thing.
Another commenter wrote that Pawi ‘did go too far with the grieving mother, but Pawi-hatred didn’t start there’. Quite right in that this isn’t the first time he’s gotten a negative reaction, but I really feel that this situation is different.
Even if Pawi didn’t intend to address the mother, his comment was written in such a way that it did. Yet when this was made clear to him, he offered no quick apology for what could be taken as an insult to a mother who had just lost her son. I mean, if his insult was purely inadvertant, wouldn’t that seem the compassionate (not to mention logical) thing to do?
Instead, he waited and read comments, then rejoined the thread and started arguing again. Although he finally gave a grudging explanation (’let me explain something to you…OK?????????????’), but still never bothered to consider the mother’s feelings.
For that, you’re really damaged, Pawi. No compassion for a mother who’s lost her son? Well, fuck your negativity, then. Take all your angst and tell it to someone who, like you, doesn’t give a damn about the feelings of those who’ve recently lost loved ones. Seriously, I hope you stayed banned until you can figure out that what you did what simply wrong.
Sorry for the typos, but I hope you can get my point…
Cool. Pawi sucks. I’m not sure about a permanent ban, since trolls always find a way back (God knows what purpose they think they serve)…
Since this is an open thread, this is the place for an article submission that isn’t headline-worthy - or is it?
N. Korea offers $100,000 to China as aid for their earthquake trouble:
http://www.reuters.com/article.....2220080517
Let’s not turn this into a “bash Pawi” thread.
I made my decision, so let’s leave at that. And what Pawi’s Conscience said in #10 in right on the money.
“Pawi is condemned only because he’s on the other side.”
Nonsense. (What exactly is the “other side”, by the way?) He’d condemned by many because he’s a hateful prick, who at least for the most part, is talking out of his ass each and every time he posts.
Since, it’s apparently time to let the love begin, why not start by mentioning that the upcoming Seoul Jazz Festival, will be running evenings from May 21 to May 24 at the Sejong Center Main Hall? In the short span of just four days, great acts like The Crusaders, Chris Botti, and Incognito will be on stage.
I think we all can use a bit more of love around here…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s6o5SehgtlE
I see Stacked filling in nicely for pawi, who to me had legitimate value in representing what people who aren’t thinking are thinking — the kind of gut reactionary mindset that may lie behind some of the strange things “the expat” encounters in the media, street and society of their host country.
If anyone should have been banned, it was “stackd”, not pawi.
How can I help you? If it’s regarding the other thread, I admitted making a mistake and apologised.
I agree that Stacked is a “Pawi-in-waiting”, but I don’t see him sticking around here for long.
Hope I’m right.
Although the comments I read here are just a sample of the expat community in Korea, with so much distaste for the Korean culture and Korean ways, no wonder the Koreans are distrustful of foreigners. Which came first, Koreans distrust of foreigners or some expat’s expressed feelings of western culture superiority over Korean culture?
Since Koreans’ distrust of foreigners predates their knowledge of the West, I’d say the former came first.
I guess knowledge and experience with the West didn’t deter but rather confirmed that their distrust was warranted.
Yes, everyone in the world is out to get the poor, misunderstood Koreans.
And, the Koreans are out to get the poor misunderstood expats.
“I guess knowledge and experience with the West didn’t deter but rather confirmed that their distrust was warranted.”
Confirmed an existing prejudice, eh? What a surprising outcome!
So, what’s your solution?
Or are you just another passive-aggressive whining sock?
Confirmed an existing prejudice, eh? What a surprising outcome!”
Yes, precisely!
Wish I had a solution. No, no such intelligence, I’m afraid. Just chiming in like the rest of you.
A Korean once told me, “Koreans think different is wrong”. To the extent this is true, this informs their view of “foreigners”, all of whom by definition, are different from Koreans.
Now, here you have it. No matter how well a foreigner speaks Korean, adapts to local customs and mores, and respects the culture, to Koreans, he is “wrong”, simply by virtue of what he is.
You are being disingenuous by implying that at one time Koreans were open-minded, welcoming naifs who became xenophobic only after “foreigners” (including expats) hurt them.
I don’t know whether you are a Korean, or another soft-headed Westerner, but your premise is mistaken.
Well, there you have it. I posted comments here with some trepidation and my fears played out.
“You are being disingenuous by implying that at one time Koreans were open-minded, welcoming naifs who became xenophobic only after “foreigners” (including expats) hurt them.”
If I came across implying that, I certainly didn’t mean it. Reading various comments today just saddened me and prompted me to comment. I absolutely agree that Koreans are xenophobic and I also believe that this much negativity about a country where expats freely decided to live in, isn’t healthy either.
I think this is my last post for today! Yikes.
Do you imagine that there are no Koreans living overseas, whether in the U.S., Canada, Australia, wherever, who do not harbor the same sort of negativity?
I mean, seriously, what is your point?
Nicely dispatched. Thanks for taking care of that one, dogbert.
“Since Koreans’ distrust of foreigners predates their knowledge of the West, I’d say the former came first.”
Uhh… wasn’t xenophobia pretty much a universal human sentiment until very, very recently (in terms of human history)? How long has it been since racism has been labeled taboo in the “West”?
“A Korean once told me, “Koreans think different is wrong”. To the extent this is true, this informs their view of “foreigners”, all of whom by definition, are different from Koreans.
Now, here you have it. No matter how well a foreigner speaks Korean, adapts to local customs and mores, and respects the culture, to Koreans, he is “wrong”, simply by virtue of what he is.”
Unless he was the spokesperson for the South Korean people, or has telepathic abilities that can survey the minds of 50+million people, I’d say that’s a bit of a stretch of an argument.
My personal sentiment? Korea = Work in Progress, In Construction, Sorry for the Mess. For the people living in the construction area, my deepest sympathies.
Uhh… wasn’t the poster I was responding to referring specifically to Korea?
Is it really that much of a default response to say, “But the ‘West’ was/is just as bad”, whenever Korea is mentioned in a less than flattering light? It certainly seems to be.
Of course, that was one person’s view. On the other hand, my own years of observation lead me to believe it is a representative point of view in Korea, applied not only to foreigners, but to anyone who is “different”. You are ethnic Korean, do you think that is not a prevalent sentiment, or do your experiences lead you to believe otherwise?
“Is it really that much of a default response to say, “But the ‘West’ was/is just as bad”, whenever Korea is mentioned in a less than flattering light? It certainly seems to be.”
Dogbert, I’m really not trying to ‘defend’ anyone or any country here. Just pointing out the overall context of xenophobia. Chill.
“You are ethnic Korean, do you think that is not a prevalent sentiment, or do your experiences lead you to believe otherwise?”
I think that ‘Difference = Wrong’ sentiment is held too literally under your analysis. Assuming that cultural integration occurs on the part of the ‘foreigner’ and, with luck that some of these xenophobic tendencies calm down in Korea (and they seem to be, at an unknown and often unstable rate), it would be possible for ‘foreigners’ to integrate successfully into the SK society. In other words, I find your conclusion too pessimistic.
I’m really counting on ‘Guest’ sentiment and ‘Caring what other people think about you’ sentiment to be the catalyst for reducing/removing xenophobia. Perhaps, to be fair, I’m being too optimistic.
I think my conclusion is accurate (as is my pointing out, once again of the knee-jerk response ethnic Koreans oft display when they feel their “motherland” has been impugned), but as you say, things are a “work in progress”.
How is pointing out a context an argument for, or for that matter against, anything? Am I justifying the xenophobia in any way?
A: Korean shit smells like shit.
B: Well… doesn’t everyone’s shit smell like shit?
Is B trying to say that Korean shit doesn’t smell like shit? Probably not.
And because of this comment, the google ad will probably advertise laxatives. You’re welcome.
In Korea, difference = discomfort.
Some learn to overcome it but some don’t. Some of those that don’t overcome it also think that Korea’s celebrated homogeneity gives them license to go after those many discomfiting differences, because the whole culture is behind them.
Title: Being Pawikirogi (2008)
Plot synopsis: A blogger in America discovers a door in his office that allows him to enter the mind and life of Pawikirogi for 15 minutes. He promptly sets out to exploit this discovery, but it doesn’t take long for him to realize that he’s actually entered the mind of Dr. Phil.
@41
The problem with that example is that the most common response is that the other shit smells worse (or less?) without having any reason for doing so. As such, it adds nothing to the argument. If it is being used as a model example in order to bring about change in the initial statement, then it may have a purpose.
I agree wholeheartedly — my students sometimes get frustrated because their English learning curve isn’t as fast once they reach higher levels as it was back when they started, and had that exciting, “I learned five important, very useful words today!” feeling, and I remind them to compare their ability now with their ability a year ago, rather than with last week, to notice how far they’ve come — sort of like the way each morning you look in the mirror, your hair looks the same as the day before, but then suddenly, after four or six weeks, you say “whoa! I need a haircut!”
Yeah, Korea IS changing. . . but as with my students and their English ability, my theory is that the k-hating expats don’t stick around long enough to notice, or don’t step back and take a long enough view to notice how much progress DOES happen.
I haven’t been told, “Fuck you, go back to your country” since 2003. That counts for something.
The CEO of Samsung had to resign in disgrace, instead of burying the scandal with more bribes, the way he might have been able to do if it were 1995 instead of 2008. Things are way better here, even just compared to when I came in 2003, but when I’m emotional, I forget that, and pull no punches in my prose.
I think that one of the keys is waking Korea’s media up to the reality that the world IS watching (btw: this is piggybacking on stuff Metropolitician’s said — gotta credit my source), and there are no “in house issues” anymore, because of the speed of communication, and that when Coreana runs an ad that glamourizes nazis, or a kid dies in a Sauna, or comparative, international statistics about workplace gender equality are published, Korea’s domestic issues don’t disappear behind the veil of the Korean language anymore, the way they used to when so few foreigners spoke the language, and information moved more slowly. I think Korea’s media is really dropping the ball on this front, and continues to misuse their power of influence over the monolingual Korean-speakers, who are basically a captive audience for them.
Welcome to the Marmot’s Hole, Amyable. How’d your trial by fire go?
“The problem with that example is that the most common response is that the other shit smells worse (or less?) without having any reason for doing so.”
Right, I’m saying I’m claiming nothing of the sort.
“I think Korea’s media is really dropping the ball on this front, and continues to misuse their power of influence over the monolingual Korean-speakers, who are basically a captive audience for them.”
Absolutely. If the media is the fourth branch of democratic government, South Korea has one fucked up democratic government (not that it’s peachy even when disregarding the media). Fox News actually looks fair and balanced and… almost wise in comparison to… any Korean news media.
In my public speaking class, the topic of the day was “give me your thoughts on the American Beef situation” and the main thrust of my two-minute talk was, “Use your English ability to read international media sources.” I’m so glad my English fluency means that I can check Reuters, BBC, and http://www.projectcensored.org/ - a site devoted to noting the stories that were buried by governments or big businesses that have media influence.
Roboseyo,
I’m sure it’s very evident to you how my “trial by fire” went! Thanks for asking. I’ll refrain from posting my thoughts on expat/Korean culture going forward.
Strangely enough for me, my short experience commenting here felt like conversations I have with my father. No real dialogue, both of us with our heels dug in, each just having one-sided conversation together. Unplesant and definitely non-productive.
Amy
“…I also believe that this much negativity about a country where expats freely decided to live in, isn’t healthy either.”
I don’t get this at all. There are certain things about living here that I don’t like - but I don’t quite believe that Utopia exits. Shit happens (and stinks) wherever you are.
Do you really think that some of the posters here do not freely and openly acknowledge problems in their home country? At the risk of sounding like a broken old record - this is a blog predominantly about Korea by and for those living in or who have lived in or have some sort of connection/interest with the place. You expect sunshine and lollipops everyday?
Every country has its share of good people and assholes. The ratio is very close, be it England, Norway, Argentina, Japan or Korea.
When people start think in terms of “we are better than others”, which I do from time to time, then we are not being truthful.
Basically, in the inside, we are the same. We will hurt others to get more stuff for ourselves. We are all sinners.
We need Jesus.
BTW, if you have time go and see “Expelled”. I am a scientist and I think what is happening in science now is so unscientific. I mean “Evolution” Nazis. You see the movie and you will get my point. I have been thinking along the argument Ben Stein is proposing in this movie for last three decades.
“Evolution” Nazis. They have “Darwin” inside a fish sign in the back of their cars. It is like saying, “Heil, Darwin. Heil, Science”(their brande of science).
I think Science has to keep an open mind. Intelligent Design makes perfect sense to me. Even if I were not a Christian, I think Intelligent Design has an equal chance with Evolution.
Which is probably why they often use 틀리다 for 다르다…
@50
The whole notion of ID is infinitely regressive which inevitably leads to contradictions or dismissive religious mumbo jumbo because of one simple quesiton…
What designed the designer?
If the complexity of the world cannot be explained by “chance” and needed a designer, the complexity of the designer must be unfathomable which begs the question etc etc.
By the way, I met Jesus. He was an exchange student from Mexico at my university in Canada. Nice guy.
The very same thought has occurred to me as well.
Any native Korean speakers or linguists care to comment?
@48: No doubt your father is a wise man, who is speaking with years of experience and wisdom that you have not yet attained.
Listen to him.
Hmm… but the statement would have been one of the four..
1. Difference is different
2. Different is wrong
3. Wrong is different
4. Wrong is wrong.
Unless this was a metaphysical philosophical musing, it would have to be #2.
#50 baduk
“I am a scientist… Intelligent Design makes perfect sense to me…Intelligent Design has an equal chance with Evolution.”
LOL. You are not a scientist. You are a pseudo-scientist.
You wouldn’t be the first one to be chased. Not by a long shot. (notice, though, that Bumfromkorea took up your case after you left).
I have had some great conversations here at the marmot’s hole, and it’s helped sharpen or clarify my thoughts about a range of K-topics, but it can be kind of hot in the kitchen sometimes.
I’m not going to say anything more about it here, but if you want to know some of my other thoughts on that, click on my gravatar and ask for them over at my own blog.
Regarding your original question/chicken and egg riddle back at 24:
1. not all the commenters here live in Korea
2. there are a lot of defenders of Korea here, too, and not all of the defenders are koreans themselves — you just don’t know who’s from where, because it’s online, eh? but negative comments stick in people’s minds more strongly than well-developed, even-handed arguments.
3. some, maybe many, of the expats who write whiny, sarcastic blogs or comments about Korea when they live in Korea, would be writing whiny, sarcastic blogs and comments about any place they lived: bear in mind that when Peter talks about Paul, we learn as much about Peter as we do about Paul, on both sides of the debate (because there are people here and other places who harp on expats and foreigners just as harshly as some harp on Korea here)
but
4. i think for a lot of people, comment boards like this one or dave’s esl cafe, or some of the more nasty, sarcastic blogs, serve as a kind of catharsis. All day long, my white skin makes me an ambassador, puts me under a microscope, in my own neighbourhood, or in my conversation classes. I try to be as generous as I can with frustrating situations, and then sometimes I need to blow off steam, and word things more harshly than I really mean, if you actually put me to it.
When one gets tired of being an ambassador face-to-face, it’s fun to purge all one’s piss and vinegar and sarcasm and such online, where there’s a record of it, rather than just screaming into a pillow for a while.
5. most Koreans don’t form their trust/distrust stance about foreigners by reading the marmot’s hole comment boards. many more take what the media presents them on trust, or form their opinion from observation of the foreigners they meet/see around town. the expats who come in with smug superiority get sniped just as harshly here at Marm by the koreans who visit, as you got sniped by the expats.
oops: that was all in response to amyable at 24 and 48.
My own two cents — Yes, some of the bellyaching is very, very unbecoming, but as I’ve said many times before, the non-stop bitching about Korea may be an indication that expats in Korea are better adjusted than they are usually given credit for. I hate using generalizations, but to break one out here, Koreans like to bitch, especially online. Online bitching, pessimism and negativity is the national esprit de corps. And I don’t mean that as a slam on Korea — as a New Yorker, cathartic bitching is a trait I fully appreciate.
Me too. Jesus was my roommate for three weeks at Osan Air Base in 1992. He was a slob.
@Mr. Carr
I’ve always wondered about how many people on your old base knew that Chuck Norris had served there.
The stories I’ve read have him as the first non-Korean to earn a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. And, that he was Charles Norris before he got tough in Korea.
What can you tell us?
About that much. My other roommate Gary could probably tell you more. He was into Taekwondo.
I think I was seven when Chuck Norris was at Osan.I wasn’t born yet when Chuck Norris was at Osan. Chuck Norris is almost 70, you know.He was there in 1958.
I just figured that he’d be the official godfather of the place and that you guys would have to pledge allegiance to the flag and Norris each morning.
They didn’t even have a plaque or nothing? Sad. I’m starting to doubt some of the facts I’ve read about him on the Internet.
Oh the irony.. of all this nonsense about mad cow. I’m fresh back from 9 days in my native Montana.. had a great time. Amazingly did not contract mad cow. Back now, and I see on base the following warning: have fear and stay clear of dead birds. In the paper on the way back, however, I read how the US sent a top official to assuage Korean fears of mad cow disease. So I guess the lying and fear mongering is paying off… PLEASE kill the FTA..
the sad part is chuck norris is almost 70 and he could kick all of our asses!!!!
The Goat,
1) Evolution believers insist that human life evolved from Monkey. Cannot be nothing else. : Why this “dogmatic” insistance? Why not from other planets? Carl Sagan used to say “there are billions and billions planets in our galaxy”. Do these evolutionists visited each planet and identified that there is no intelligent creatures?
2) Some do admit that there is chance of “intelligent design”, then they immidiately ASSUME that designer evolved from another species.: How do they know> He/She could have come from a different dimension/time travel/instantaneous composition. Why this “dogmatic insistence” on only one way? This type of hell-bent religious ferver only misleads science.
Basically these Evolution worshippers want to deny their “religious” background and want to escape from it.
The pseudo-science called Evolution lets them do it.
Hell, that is no way to do science. These people want to use science to do what they want to do.
Scientists have to keep an open mind. Entertain all possibilities and evidences.
Why this insistence on only “one way”? And, these zealots started to persecute scientists with different beliefs.
Talk about Spanish Inquisition.
Evolution is basically 20th century state of art.
As people travel to other planets and discover “other truth”, evolution will lose its luster and be replaced by other theories.
Many will definitely come to accept that we are designed by something from outer space.
Evolution Nazis can everything in their power to stop this scientific advancement. But, they are fighting with obsolete weapon and there are billions and billions of stars.
Isn’t it funny that creatures who are sitting on one planet and never travelled to other galaxies ASSUME they know everything about everything. Big bang and evolution.
Come out of your shell and entertain other possibilities. And, never persecute another being for their beliefs.
Evolution Nazis are “firing” any scientist who even mentions anything about “intelligent…”. The state of science is pretty bad.
However, as the film pointed out, truth will eventually win out.
Any scientific theory must be stated in such a way that it can be proven false. Countless theories have been discarded based on contradictory evidence, and our current understanding of science is collection of evidence-based theories not yet disproven.
The problem with ID is that it is impossible to disprove the existence of a higher power; hence, ID is not a scientific theory.
Evolution is very unAmerican concept.
First, you don’t subscribe that man are created. You believe man has evolved from primodial soup.
Second, you don’t believe man are equal in value. Ben Stein correlated the Euthanesia movement to evolution. Yes, if there are generically weak men they should be eliminated.
Nazism and Communism followed evolution to the core. They killed off so-called “inferior” or “anti-revolutionary” human beings because they work against human evolutionary processes.
I am from Korea. From the early years, “Survival of the Fittest” was hammered into my ears. This is what happens when you do not have God. All that is left is to struggle and kill other human beings.
And, as one person in the film pointed out that these people, Nazis, believed that they are actually “bettering” the human race by killing off these weaklings, infirm and the Jews.
If you believe Evolution so much so that you “hate” anyone who does not subscribe to it, then you are evil.
Keep an open mind. In the 23rd century, people will laugh at Evolution theory and comment “didn’t these people know that they are billions and billions stars? How can they be so close-minded?”
Sonagi,
All intelligent design says is that “we are not randomly evolved creatures”. There may be an alien, a machine, a lab, a time-machine that generated species.
If you intellectually honest, then you must entertain these other possibilities.
If you insist “evolution is the only way” then you are not honest. Especially, there are billions and billions stars.
I have inserted plasmid(ring of DNA) to e-coli and made it multiply inside the bacteria. One can do this outside a bacteria. In a testube, with DNA-polymerase.
It is so easy.
In next several decades, we may actually see a creature made by man. There are generically mutated bacteria in the market already.
Why can’t you accept the possibility of species created outside of the earth and brought to here? Why do all species had to have been arising from one cell?
Biologists are so afraid that they are against even for this possibility. They are scared lot. Religious zealots! Ready to “expell” any who does not believe as they do.
Modern science has become a religion. Anti-God religion. Very narrow-minded men exerting their power and persecuting the weak and the different.
I’m confused here… baduk, are you speaking against the Theory of Evolution or the concept of Natural Selection?
“In next several decades, we may actually see a creature made by man.”
Already happened… well, kinda.
http://www.economist.com/scien.....d=10559637
“Why can’t you accept the possibility of species created outside of the earth and brought to here?”
That sounds like exogenesis… or the Church of Scientology.
I think that, when it comes to the argument between creationism (of any incarnation) and evolution, the biggest hindrance towards a meaningful discussion is the drastic difference in the definition. Besides, it is a bit strange that those two conflicts, considering that one is about how life started and the other is about progression from that start of life.
i don’t get your connection either, baduk. sounds like you’re starting premise is that god created man and you’re back-filling evolutionary details. it makes no sense at all-like much of ID.
never ceases to amaze me.
“I love Korea.”
–1. No FTA.
2. withdraw US troops.
3. no visa waviers.
Yes, you love Korea.
underlying premise about opposing US beef is present in all developed nations.
all govts or, civic groups in Korea’s case, used Mad Cow as a bogus reason to oppose US beef and protect domestic beef.
Europe, Japan, ANZland, they’ve all pulled it.
what, you think Korea is some kind of crazy land, where everything is anti-US?
anti-US is the middle east, my friend.
Precious few in Korea will kill themselves over anti-US.
Baduk, Songai never said that life can’t have come from outer space, or from God, or that life isn’t a movie that conforms to some screenplay that God wrote before the universe existed. She just said, correctly, that these ideas are cannot be called science because they cannot be tested. If you can’t test it, it’s not science. That’s why religion isn’t science, and why there’s a difference between things called “science” and things still called “philosophy.”
(As an aside, what Sonagi was saying about “falsifying” an idea is the philosopher of science Karl Popper’s attempt to deal with problems of inductive reasoning where one tries to create a universal rule out of many single observations. The classic example is the black swan. All of the swans that people saw for hundreds of years were white, so some people said that “all swans are white.” But Karl Popper and would say that no, you can’t say all swans are white, you can only say that all of the swans you’ve ever seen are white. Maybe somewhere in the universe there’s a black swan that you just haven’t found yet. And it turns out that in Australia people later discovered some swans that were black, although they are very rare. So this is a problem with deductive reasoning that science has to deal with. But for our purposes it’s probably easier to just say that we can’t test for God because God is an assumption that can only be made before the facts are known.)
God doesn’t want you to accept God because it makes sense, like 1+1 = 2.
God wants your faith.
Science and faith are different matters.
Baduk, it’s not really called evolution anymore. I believe the term they use is “Periodic Equilibrium”. There are no mutations that give any group of creatures a decided edge immediately. There are lethal and non-lethal mutations. If the mutation is non-lethal, it is passed into the gene pool. Then, when there is a mass extinction, sometimes that mutation does give the creature an edge in the vacated new niche, an area to exploit. Look at the Great Escarpment in Africa. If you do your homework, you’ll see that 99.9% of the fossilized remains hominids on the west side show the spinal chord coming up through the back of the skull case. On the east side there is a similar preponderance of remains showing the spinal chord coming into the skull from the bottom. When the cataclymic event that shaped the rift occured, it changed the east side from a deciduous forest to savanah. If you asked a space alien what was most striking about humans it wouldn’t talk about the size of our brains. It would say, “bipedal locomotion”. It enabled us to stand up and look for predators or game over the tall grasses of the savanah. It also freed our hands for making and carrying tools and weapons and carrying our children.
I don’t know everything but I go with the evidence. You could be right but evidence points in other directions.
Also, primitive truths aren’t exactly convenient arguments for modern day political ideologies. Read Conrad Lorenz’s “On Aggression” if you want to know more. I don’t have time right now to explain it.
BINGO! We have a winner! wjk gets it.
The banning of pawi is quite fortuitous for this relatively new character “stacked,” who was just emerging as a challenger to pawi for being the biggest jack@ss poster. I guess the title is all yours now stacked.
Is it really, really necessary to insult fellow commenters?
Seriously, I have no problem with pointed, witty banter. In fact, I rather enjoy it. But personal attacks get rather depressing after a while.
Stacked’s comments in this thread doesn’t really sound any different from say, a 20-something liberal American, why the resentment? Would think ya’ll would be used to these sort of comments, but then I haven’t read his other stuff
The boss might have a point. Site search reveals:
idiot: 493
asshole: 196
moron: 129
retard: 49
dipshit: 15
shit-for-brains: 4
fuckwad: 3
so we can always say “He started it!”
But of course, controversial topics bring out the combative nature in people. To wit:
murder: 759
racist: 720
dokdo: 627
rape: 390
comfort women: 224
anti-Korean: 220
and..
bevers: 198
@Linkd:
How could you leave out expat and gyopo?
Should they go in the upper or lower list?
@83
No, but I would like think that my comment reflected and resonated with what lies in the hearts of many of the readers here. Anyway, sorry stacked. Sorry Robert. In the future, I will try to troll less and thickly veil my future expressions of disgust with wit instead, or just be slightly indirect, like #20, #21, and #23 above.
@84
the resentment was here because of his posts before this thread. Just a few years removed from being a 20-something liberal American myself, I’ve been quickly rubbed the wrong way.
“Baduk”, your comments seem like a weird combination P.K. Dick and some pentecostal preacher to me — part science and lots of fiction.
You remind me much of a recent book by Susan Jacoby “The Age of American Unreason“, wherein the current American-style love of ignorance is characterized by anti-intellectualism (the attitude that “too much learning can be a dangerous thing”) and anti-rationalism (“the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion”).
The offspring of the two aforementioned traits have produced some real “monsters of the id” too.
i’d like to add “turd” to the list. i had used it in reference to a noticeably absent poster last week, but it was deleted from the thread.
day4night,
Actually, I like Bacon’s definition of science, that one can experimentally determine. Evolution cannot be tested in laboratory and it is just a theory.
However, if you go to the society of physics website, these people are trying to make this theory into a law. They lie and say that Evolution is a physical law, just like electricity. Fucking liars.
I like your story of swans. Yes, we are bound by this planet. Who know what goes in other planets.
When there are billions and billions of stars and billions of life forms probably, think that all creatures on earth were create right from here and from each other is very unprobable.
It is as likely that we are designed by some beings or machines to fit this planet.
However, as soon as a scientist even try to say anything along this line of logic, using mathematical probability, he is shunned. Immediately!
Evolution Nazis are real. Ask any biologist.
Now these Nazis are flexing their powers in sociology, psychology, physics, geology, astronomy, etc.
Where is the open mind in which scientific inquiries are conducted? Where is fairness?
These biologists(psedo-scientists and religious zealots) are so afraid that they expel (=destroy) any scientist who mentions “intellectual design”.
See the movie. I have known this for decades. Fucking biologists. Nazis.
isn’t it usually the other way around where the religious zealots and pseudo-scientists are the ones mentioning creationism, and not the biologists?
“isn’t it usually the other way around where the religious zealots and pseudo-scientists are the ones mentioning creationism, and not the biologists?”
Lol don’t you know? Whacked out preachers and parents aren’t invading the PUBLIC school SCIENCE classroom and demanding that the SCIENCE teacher teach creationism/ID. It’s actually the biologist-Nazis invading churches and Sunday schools and telling them not to make sermons out of Genesis.
Pop Quiz
Which of the following courses in college have I learned extensively about creationism and ID, and was appropriate for the professors to have done so?
A) Molecular Genetics
B) Organic Evolution
C) Human Event (humanities class)
D) Vertebrate Zoology
If the answer isn’t obvious, you don’t know the actual purpose of academic freedom in universities or can’t distinguish science from beliefs.
I know that the theory of evolution is true. I believe (or subscribe myself to) in day-age postulate. Those two do not conflict because one is knowledge while the other is a belief. I don’t seek to question or find proof against/for the latter because I recognize it not as a science, but as a belief.
On a different topic, a friend sent me a link to one of those Asian-themed discussion forums on the internet regarding the topic of how the young Korean American populace views Lee Myung Bak. It was quite interesting because it seems as though all of the regulars here, even the die hard leftist nationalist kyopos, seem to agree that the newly elected president will be a much needed breath of fresh air and common sense change from the past administration of Roh. Thus, I had the image that with Roh’s approval rating having been so bad when he left office, almost all Koreans, even those on the left side of the spectrum, were welcoming to the new President. However, looking at the post in the link below, boy did I ever misjudge the predictability of the Kyopo.
http://www.asiafinest.com/foru.....pic=159373
Right off the bat, the original poster says that Lee Myung Back will be the worst president and that he is an American puppet. The main reason cited is because President Lee is not focusing on going after the Dokdo issue as a priority against Japan. One of the posters actually said that Lee lacks spine and that he wishes that Korean citizens could militarily overthrow LMB in a coup d’etat just like what happened in Thailand. It was quite funny to find out that the opinion of LMB by KA kyopos is that a military coup d’etat should be conducted over the Dokto issue. LOL.
Granted most of the posters in here will probably never venture into a website like this which mainly caters to the younger crowd consisting of the typical frustrated kyopo teenager types who are going through the usual identity crisis issues and for some reason or another suddenly decide to subscribe to tribal Korean nationalism as a means of finding meaning at this difficult adolescent stage of their “empty lives”. However, I just found it very fascinating that there Korean Americans, of all people, belong to the anti-LMB faction. It seems to go against common sense.
Also, one of the guys also called 2MB “slit eyed piece of deformed trash”…..go figure. I didn’t think that’s any way to talk about the president of one’s own motherland.
Baduk said:
1) Evolution believers insist that human life evolved from Monkey. Cannot be nothing else. : Why this “dogmatic” insistance? Why not from other planets? Carl Sagan used to say “there are billions and billions planets in our galaxy”. Do these evolutionists visited each planet and identified that there is no intelligent creatures?
2) Some do admit that there is chance of “intelligent design”, then they immidiately ASSUME that designer evolved from another species.: How do they know> He/She could have come from a different dimension/time travel/instantaneous composition. Why this “dogmatic insistence” on only one way? This type of hell-bent religious ferver only misleads science.
Evangelical atheist Richard Dawkins seems to be among those who takes seriously the space aliens hypothesis. The notion that life on Earth was jump-started by an advanced ET civilization. That was the impression he gave during an interview by Ben Stein in “Expelled”.
However, this does not eliminate the problem of infinite regression (ie. who designed the aliens, then?) and merely shifts it from God to space aliens.
It is useful, though, to talk about space aliens in any discussion involving evolution, intelligent design, and the origin of life, universe, and everything. Space aliens, like God, are a matter of speculation. Most secular scientists would not disagree with the basic premise of the SETI project. If our radio telescopes detected signals of striking pattern and rich in informational content coming from light-years away, this would be considered a strong evidence of intelligent ET life. However, the same premise is employed by advocates of Intelligent Design to argue the case for a Designer. The patterns rich in informational content that bespeak of purpose and intentionality is evident in nature itself, but this is dismissed as hogwash by mainstream scientific community. There is a double-standard in science.
Any scientific theory must be stated in such a way that it can be proven false. Countless theories have been discarded based on contradictory evidence, and our current understanding of science is collection of evidence-based theories not yet disproven.
The problem with ID is that it is impossible to disprove the existence of a higher power; hence, ID is not a scientific theory.
Separation of Faith and Empiricism isn’t so evident in areas dealing with the Big Questions. When physicists like Steven Hawking talk about evidents happening in the nanoseconds after the Big Bang, this is a manifestation of faith.
^ evidents should be events
>> #52
The Goat said:
The whole notion of ID is infinitely regressive which inevitably leads to contradictions or dismissive religious mumbo jumbo because of one simple quesiton…
What designed the designer?
If the complexity of the world cannot be explained by “chance” and needed a designer, the complexity of the designer must be unfathomable which begs the question etc etc.
I think we really need to give the old Ockham’s Razor argument a rest because there is an abundance of complexity in nature herself (nevermind the notion of a designer for the moment), which exists and has to be accounted for.
One key question that the materialists have never been able to demonstrate to anyone’s satisfaction is how did molecules spontaneously organize themselves to produce organic life?
Stanley Miller’s famous experiment was debunked in the 60s when it became apparent that he made inaccurate assumptions about the chemical content of primitive atmosphere but yet biology texts still cite this experiment and claim that he succeeded in producing organic molecules. Yeah, plastic and formaldehyde are also organic molecules. In the late 90s, a scientist demonstrated that one can take chemicals found in any typical lab and produce amino acids and eventually RNA.
However, these experiments all suffer from a fatal fundamental philosophical flaw in that in all such experiments, there is an Intelligent Agent (ie the experimenter) that conducted the experiment with a plan, purpose, and will.
If the complexity of the world cannot be explained by “chance” and needed a designer, the complexity of the designer must be unfathomable which begs the question etc etc.
“Chance” is another word for “miracle”. Eliminate God from the equation and science is left with the unenviable task of explaining miracles in a godless universe.
“isn’t it usually the other way around where the religious zealots and pseudo-scientists are the ones mentioning creationism, and not the biologists?”
Lol don’t you know? Whacked out preachers and parents aren’t invading the PUBLIC school SCIENCE classroom and demanding that the SCIENCE teacher teach creationism/ID. It’s actually the biologist-Nazis invading churches and Sunday schools and telling them not to make sermons out of Genesis.
The biologists are going one step further these days and explaining the origins of HUMAN MORALITY in terms of evolution. Chew on that for a moment.
I have not seen “Expelled” nor do I plan to. I am highly suspicious that Dawkins would think that ET-like creatures came to Earth and established a civilization; rather, Dawkins may have discussed a belief among scientists that some chemical building blocks of life may have been introduced to Earth from meteorites. Listen to this Youtube video of the actual interview and then revisit your claim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
In the video, Dawkins makes clear that IF there are extraterrestrial life forms, that they, too, were evolved, not designed.