Both the Korea Times and Korea Herald have run stories on the death of 14-year-old Michael White in a sauna near Daegu:
The Korea Times piece is mostly a recap of mother Stephannie White’s statements and stuff you can read on blogs, although it will probably be coming out with some more in-depth stuff later.
The Korea Herald (not linkable), on the other hand, was able to talk to the sauna and police — if anyone was thinking this was a hoax, it isn’t:
A mother from the United States is crying foul after her son drowned in a sauna complex for no apparent reason.
According to local police, 14-year-old Michael White was discovered in the cold pool of the sauna in Gyeongsan, near Daegu.
A staff member at the sauna complex saw him face down in the pool, but did nothing, assuming he was bathing, police and sauna management said.
When the employee saw him again later, he was still face down in the pool. Emergency services were then contacted.
Police say they are investigating, but they have no reason to believe a crime had been committed. There were no signs of obvious injury on the body, they said.
At the time, the mother and her female friends had separated from her son while they used the bathing areas. There were 15 other people in the bathroom at the time, according to police.
The sauna claims it DID try to reach the mother, although it did so in Korean:
When Michael’s mother was notified, he was being treated and loaded into the ambulance. The hospital confirmed they declared him dead on arrival.
The mother, Stephannie White, says when she asked the ambulance crew why they had no oxygen or defibrillators, they told her that workers at the sauna reported him as dead to the emergency services. She claims the staff did not contact her until after the ambulance arrived.
“The really heart wrenching thing is that staff didn’t get us,” said White. “We are both first responder trained and we could have saved him.”
The manager of the sauna denies that the boy was called in dead, and says he tried to notify the mother through an announcement. According to the manager, the announcement was in Korean, but used the English word “dangerous” to try and locate people accompanying the boy.
You know, granted, it’s the responsibility of foreigners to learn Korean, but still, given the circumstances, I don’t think it would have been too difficult to send someone in and actually find the mother.
Anyway, concerning laws barring minors from saunas unaccompanied:
There is a law barring minors from entering sauna complexes unaccompanied. However, the management said there was nothing preventing minors from separating from their supervisors once inside.
A vigil was held outside the U.S. Embassy in Seoul yesterday morning, and another will be help outside the sauna complex tomorrow.
Still no news in the Korean-language press. Of course, why should we expect any — it’s not like pot or photos suggesting inter-racial sex took place were involved.
Hopefully people living in the Daegu area will turn up tomorrow at the vigil in front of the sauna. Ms. White can use all the help and compassion we can offer.
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‘You know, granted, it’s the responsibility of foreigners to learn Korean, but still…’
but still what? let me get this right; it’s the fault of the koreans for speaking korean in korea while the boy’s mom couldn’t understand korean while living in korea, is that right? i wonder what you say to a mexican here under similar circumstances.
This is the direct link to the KH.
Like so many other things, this seems to involve individuals with no common sense whatsoever.
Some things just seem so obvious “duh”, but this is a place where taking common sense for granted can be life threatening.
There is absolutely no shortage of human stupidity anywhere and there is never a shortage of lame excuses people give after displaying such stupidity.
I feel for the woman and her family. However, this is a lesson to all of us not to expect that the people around you have fully functioning brains and you and your loved ones will be properly assisted or taken care of.
For the most part, we waygookin are truly complete aliens to the local populace who are very afraid of and completely at a loss as how to interact with us as regular human beings. Most would rather choose to avoid interaction with us altogether.
I don’t see that changing any time in the near future.
Here is the Korean Heral link:
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/N.....170009.asp
They continuously get more advanced, but regardless most Korean websites that try to hide content do so with a frame first and formost… to bypass Korea Heralds in the future just go to http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/kherald.asp and any link you click on afterwards will have a URL in the address bar.
I meant there is no shortage of human stupidity anywhere in the world- not just in Korea.
Seems odd that if they were announcing (in Korean) that there was an accident involving a young foreigner and were looking for his parents, that no one would at least physically lead the adult foreigners to the front desk. I had non-English speaking Koreans lead me somewhere numerous times in Korea before I had learned the language.
Your question was answered in the rest of the sentence, which you conveniently left out of your quote.
Let’s see white kid and white mom and over the intercom system make an announcement in Korean and slip in the word dangerous in English.
That would get any mom’s attention wouldn’t it???
Was it that hard to send a female worker into the women’s sauna to find the only white chick there????
I think austin put it nicely on another thread.
“THESE PEOPLE ARE MORONS”
You are the moron. If you don’t get it, they didn’t want to help at all. It even looks like they declared him dead before he was even dead.
If they cared I’m sure they would have looked for the mother.
“Police say they are investigating, but they have no reason to believe a crime had been committed. There were no signs of obvious injury on the body, they said.”
Takes a day or two for bruising to appear postmortem.
Is that our very own pow pow being dishonest on top of being an asswipe? [oops, can't see his comments, my browser won't let me
]
I am still not satisfied with the conduct of the police in this matter. I would expect them to pursue this until they could determine what happened and why. Based upon everything I have read so far, what really happened is still a mystery.
Korea needs to pay police better and hire better because I think we do not have the quality of police we need.
I don’t consider this a “Korea” issue because no matter where it happened or who it happened to, what happened was WRONG! It’s wrong if it happened in Korea, in America, in Kenya, in France, and it doesn’t matter if the victim/family are black, white, purple or blue. There is NO REASON for this to have happened, especially since there was a large window of time, as said by the medical examiner, in which he could have been saved.
THAT’S why it should be in the Korean press. I’m sure any mother would be horrified to know that another mother had lost her child in such a manner.
And if you want to make it a “Korea” issue, then we can all guarantee it won’t be in the Korean press because it certainly doesn’t lend to a “Sparkling” image, especially since it involves a foreign national. I doubt it would increase tourist (or business) dollars if potential tourists have any doubts in their minds about their own safety and the safety of their children.
@Pawi,
How about you stop thinking in terms of Koreans vs. all others and start thinking in terms of everyone being human beings.
Work on developing a soul and the ability for empathy and compassion. Your comments reveal a lot more about your tortured identity crisis than they do about anything you comment upon.
AND, his mother, her name is Stephannie, not “the expat,” as well as her son (may he rest in peace), were not completely ignorant of the Korean language, as you so assume. And even if she didn’t, that STILL does NOT make her son’s death an acceptable course of events, as you seem to imply.
I will leave my comment at that before I get myself worked up any more.
R. Elgin, the police here, including the detective squad, can be counted on for being lazy and incompetent.
Time and time again they are shown to be very hesistant to perform real investigations. Most of the time, they just go through the motions, but don’t do any real invetigative work. Take the case of the foreign woman attacked by a guy who crawled through her window. Thankfully, she was able to get away, but the police didn’t fingerprint the place, they didn’t take DNA samples, they didn’t interview neighbors or possible witnesses, etc.
They just treated the whole thing as a minor nuisance that should be forgotten about.
Now, the only department that seems intent on investigating is the drug department. When they catch someone, they do all they can to find out who else the person was taking drugs with. This is due to the open secret that they receive a large bonus for every drug taker they catch.
I guess these jerkoffs need bonus incentives to really do their jobs.
Maybe they should hand out bonuses to those who catch murderers, rapists other assaulters!
Maybe then they would really put forth effort in finding real criminals!
I don’t usually agree with Pawi, but it’s we expats here who are looking at things in expat vs Korean terms.
If we really disregarded nationalities altogether, and saw this as a manager versus customer case, we would have to extend the Korean sauna owner the same courtesy that we are told we must extend the mother. After all, he and his friends could stray into this blog too. (Presumably the indignant expats on here would have snorted at the Korean blogs in 2002 where any hint of criticism of Hyosun/Miseon’s actions was banned on the grounds that relatives might see it.) We would also refrain from “these people are morons” type comments that do not make clear how comprehensive “these people” is.
And if we are to disregard the Korean cultural context altogether, and criticize the sauna for not responding the way a sauna would in the West, we have to raise, for fairness’s sake, the obvious question of why this sauna customer did not behave the way a sauna customer would in the West, namely by leaving a 14 year old boy unattended in a room full of naked men – with whom he (presumably) could not communicate – for well over an hour. This is germane to the discussion, because the fact that the boy was unaccompanied may well (in addition to his height) have led some people in the management to conclude that he came alone. (It’s a little ironic, though I see the point, that the Koreans are being criticized for not having divided their customers into ethnic groups and made the supposedly obvious connection to the group of white ladies.) Anyway, if none of this can be discussed for fear of offending the mother, it seems best to make clear in the posting that the thread is just a place to leave 명복을 빕니다’s (but aren’t there separate sites for that?).
It seems that on the one hand, the Koreanness of Korea is seen as a good thing, leading us to relax much more than we would in our own countries. Then we call the locals morons when they don’t move fast and think quickly enough for one of our (monolingual) own. Just remember that globalization cuts both ways. You get the efficiency and safety, sure, and you lose something else too.
Pawi
Body language accounts for approximately 70% of all communication (give or take a few %). Perhaps someone could have thought to use that – somehow?
The Korean press has some fundamental issues with the way it reports on foreigners. The KH has some interesting articles, and it doesn’t always kowtow to the xenophobe line (thanks to a few expat writers), but it’s a rare day that any positive foreigner news (or news of forigners suffering at Korean hands, such as the one in question) makes it out in the local language. No wonder they hate us.
I’m reminded of an incident in Gwangju a few years back when 2 of my friends were bashed by a group Koreans. One of them was so badly beaten (kicked repeatedly in the head while he lay unconscious on the pavement) that he suffered a brain hemorrage. No-one helped him or his hysterical girlfriend; they had to catch a taxi to the local hospital, where a doctor rang his old man in the middle foi the night to ask for his permission to operate on his brain.
There were 2 foreign guys and 2 foreign girls at the scene. (the other waeguk guy got 12 stitches to his mouth) The incident took place on a Saturday night. On monday morning the local rag ran a story about drunk foreigners brawling with locals (5 big-noses beating on 3 locals, no less!) and also added that the foreigners also bashed some innocent bystanders who were trying to stop the fight.
The article was obscene. It also caused a lot of damage to the reputation of the local foreigner community; a good example of how the media has the power to shape public opinion, and the power it has (generally unexercised here) to make a society more civil, in every sense of the word.
This case is another facet of the same ugly machine in operation. White boy sells pot to himself: news. White boy dies; not news. Hate sells; empathy doesn’t. Why would anyone want to read about a white women who has been brutalised by local ineptitude? It rouses unpleasant feelings, requires empathy, is much more complex difficult to grapple with emotionally.
Sticking to the familiar canon of evil expat, korean victim, is an easy, blissful ignorance.
Said it before and I’ll say it again, THESE PEOPLE ARE MORONS.
Just look around, when do you not see people standing 1 metre into the street at a busy intersection whilst waiting for the green light. What’s wrong with actually standing on the pavement, instead of in the path of oncoming traffic.
In a single day, I’ll see more acts of stupidity, than I see in other countries in over a month.
I’ve yet met a single Korean (except the missus) I can have an intelligent conversation with (and I’m not that bright!), before idiotic Korean pride and Nationalism turn the person into a blithering Moron.
Harsh words maybe BUT look around, there is sooo much evidence.
Sorry if this sounds tacky, as the poor mother has lost her son, BUT there are too many “accidents” in Korea, caused by stupid, stupid behaviour.
On a positive note, not many fat people.
Korea imposes no duty of care on third-party bystanders to help someone in trouble; there is no “Good Samaritan” law here requiring intervention by the customers of the sauna.
However, in respect of the owners of the sauna there will probably be liability — operators of public accommodations have a duty to protect their customers from foreseeable harms such as drowning or heart failure.
19: “On a positive note, not many fat people.”
You redeemed yourself with that last line, but only barely.
20: Interesting. But I’m wondering, how can a public bath operator prevent people from drowning or having heart attacks? Lifeguards seated on three-foot-tall towers? Somehow I see all this ending with foreigners being turned away from saunas.
Yes, there are – the Facebook and other sites put up by Ms. White. A boy has died tragically under unclear circumstances, and his mom is known to some readers here and has visited the blog. I think that in cases like this it might be better to post an informational entry with the comment section closed. Other than “I’m sorry for your loss,” there’s nothing worthwhile anyone could say on the matter right now.
Sonagi: I assume you really mean a non-Korean boy…and his non-Korean mom, because I doubt if you would call for the same discretion in regard to all blog postings that refer to a death or deaths in Korea – or even for all the postings that refer to a death of a Korean who might have English-reading relatives. That in turn implies the understanding that this is not an English-language blog about Korea but a blog specifically for the expat community. My take was always that Robert was pushing to make it more of the former than the latter, but I could be wrong.
.
“Other than “I’m sorry for your loss,” there’s nothing worthwhile anyone could say on the matter right now.”
I think you’re right.
Mrs. Linkd here, can’t be bothered to sign him out and sign up for myself:
#20: To my knowledge, there aren’t only no “good samaritan laws” requiring other bathhouse-goers to assist in an emergency situation, there aren’t any “good samaritan laws” protecting said bathhouse-goes from liability from any injury they cause in providing such assistance.
You help someone who’s dying, and they die. They were alive when you started helping, and dead in the process of your helping. In Korea, you can be liable as they died under your care. Perhaps this is not the letter of the law, but it is the belief of my Korean coworkers… which is my only reasonable poll of well-educated Koreans available to me.
I work for a well known public facility here in Korea, and have in the past tried to get AEDs (defibrillators) for use in emergency situations, but they remain illegal for public use in Korea. To my knowledge, they aren’t even available for ambulances, as doctors wish to reserve them strictly for the use of physicians. You’d think that they’d want patients to have a chance at arriving at the hospital alive? I mean, the ROI on living patients is much higher than the deceased, from a long term perspective…
Michael’s death is so distressing because it seems that gross ineptitude, indifference and apathy – and, at worst, criminal malice – of a truly frightening scale greatly contributed to his death.
The old saying, “Evil happens when good people do nothing” comes to mind thinking about this tragic event. I just hope that there’s one or two good people out there who witnessed what exactly happened to Michael come forward and provide information to the police and help ease the anguish of Michael’s mother.
Iheartblueballs comment 2 days ago on safety in Korea should really be the final word from us on this case. In fact it should be printed in large type in all major languages on posters at the immigration line at Inchon Airport.
Wrong, but nice try playing the race card. Many of our readers are ethnic Koreans. If the mother and her son had been Korean, I would have responded in the same way – with empathy – and expected others to do the same.
@ 28 Sonagi
Thank you for articulating my point much more succinctly than I did earlier.
All his mother is asking for is the ability to ask questions and get some answers about what happened to her son, and I think that is something she is entitled to.
I also think this is a warning to people who think that saunas are for everyone. Clearly, they are not. Be sure to know your own health conditions before entering a room that is almost 200 degrees for more than 10 minutes.
Correct. And given the general acceptance of post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning in Korean society, including the Korean bench, the person who attempts to render assistance undertakes a not-insignificant risk.
Sonagi: So you are indeed saying that discussions of any deaths in Korea must exempt the victim and the victim’s family from any hint of criticism, on the off chance that they might stray in here? Okay. Just wanted to make sure.
@Alejandro:
I am saying that we should use our best judgment in making comments about situations like this. Period. Full stop.
I’d like to address the statement by the Sauna that they made an announcement with the english word “danger” in it. This is an outright LIE. I was with two friends that night, one is bilingual. there was no announcement made at all!! NO ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE AT ALL! My friends have come from Cheonan to make a statement to the police tomorrow to attest to this FACT~
@#31
I always thought that was strange, considering how there’s even a proverb similar to post hoc, ergo propter hoc, “까마귀 날자 배 떨어진다”.
Surely, there must have been a few withnesses who could have told the police what went on?
Where are they?
These public bath deaths have evidently been on the rise in Japan and Korea, perhaps because people are just spending a lot more time in these sauna/jjimjil settings than they used to, but also because temperature warnings are increasingly ignored by both the management and the clientele. Every so often the TV news reports on whether the insurance company has to pay out in a certain case of bath death(if the deceased was drunk at the time, etc).
Of course it’s far too big an industry and lobby for the Korean press to give these deaths even a fraction of the mad-cow treatment. My point is that the Korean press’s indifference to the case is not necessarily a matter of racism. The press is almost always on the side of a big industry (provided it is not a foreign one, of course) against a consumer, whom the public too will likely shrug off as “재수 없다”.
#20
The 응급의료에 관한 법률 was signed into law on November 21, 2007.
The government is currently in the process of drafting the implementation guidelines and budget has already been earmarked.
As I’ve been told, the law also stipulates on the deployment of automated external defibrillators in public places (PAD – public access defibrillation)
I’m just not sure whether intervention by bystanders during emergencies is mandatory (somebody’s got to read the bill…).
This is the foreign community’s chance to have a say in the implementation guidelines as the Korean bureaucrats have some implementation issues (e.g. they’re asking regarding AEDs: What if AEDs in public places get stolen? -> in some US states, stealing a defibrillator is a class 3 felony.
they’re also asking, is the police in the US required to have defibrillators in their police cars? -> No, AEDs in police cars are not mandatory, but some states authorize having AEDs in police cars and allocate money to equip police cars with defibrillators)
for comparison, US state laws on heart attacks, cardiac arrest, and defibrillators:
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/aed.htm
AM, while not intending to, saying that this may cause jinjilbangs to turn away foreigners almost comes off as if this boy’s death is causing you inconvenience. I hope that it doesn’t put you out to too great a degree.
I say if that is the way they choose to respond then good riddance! Rather than the industry learning from this lesson and many more, (regardless of the press coverage, word of mouth exists), and at least attempting to provide safety standards, they choose to try to subdue strories like this. Fine! I always had trouble drying myself with a washcloth anyway, and I never could make a funny hat out of those damn things. The experience is okay but nothing I’m going to get bendt over losing.
One thing I do hope is that Stephanie doesn’t come away from this thinking that people are rotten all over. I’m sure that her disbelief and anger must be boundless at present. Despite the possible legal implications of helping someone in need, I am appalled because I know of many genuinely good people here in Korea and can only wonder that not a single one was present at the time and place of the incident. I’m so sorry, Stephanie. I am a father but cannot even imagine your sorrow and grief. My heart and prayers are with you.
Perhaps someday when there is a stronger distinction in Korean culture and language between “victim” and “sacrifice” outrage will become stronger and something will be done.
#25
If you don’t mind, which well known public facility is that?
Maharlika — Thanks for the link. I’ve met you halfway and have read the amended law.
The amendment to the Emergency Medical Services Act does not impose a duty to intervene on bystanders, but does provide for both (i) a duty for a variety of people employed by public accommodations (most of which are “common carriers”) to receive training in lifesaving techniques and use of lifesaving equipment (amended Art. 14); and (ii) a duty for certain common carriers (medical facilities, firefighters, airlines, railroads, and marine vessels) to purchase lifesaving equipment including automated defibrillators (new Art. 47-2).
It’s not immediately clear whether this amended statute would impose a lifesaving training obligation on public saunas. The defibrillator purchase obligation — probably not, unless the forthcoming Presidential Enforcement Decree specifically provides. (I doubt it, since most neighborhood saunas are pretty marginal businesses.) But partly that’s because I don’t know which law governs the licensing and operation of public saunas. Are they classified along with gyms? If they’re classified along with gyms then the staff of a public sauna would be required to take lifesaving training.
As for the foreign community’s opportunity to have input, well… The amendment to the Emergency Medical Services Act takes effect May 21, 2008.
“AM, while not intending to, saying that this may cause jinjilbangs to turn away foreigners almost comes off as if this boy’s death is causing you inconvenience. I hope that it doesn’t put you out to too great a degree.”
Thanks for worrying about me, but I can get hot water at home without having to look at a lot of paunchy naked men. I was simply predicting that Foreigners Unwelcome signs (such as went up a few years ago in a sauna in one of those Kyunggi satellite towns) might be the natural solution for a people who generally would rather not be bathing with foreigners in the first place. But I see that the boundaries of what is considered an acceptable remark in regard to this issue grow narrower every hour.
Maharlika – I work for COEX. I’ll seriously be looking into this. Hopefully we can get some AEDs in before next budget period.
Thanks for the heads-up.
2 words: negligent homicide.
But seriously, if the Korean employees spoke on the intercom asking for information about the boy or whatever and used a single English word (dangerous), I have to wonder about that. Was it said at the beginning of the message? In the middle or at the end? And I wonder about the pronunciation of the word…
It is pathetic to nitpick like this about something that seems very negligent. And, most of all, tragic! I really sympathize with the mother, who must be contemplating her early exit from this place.
Why did they say only one English word? Why did they say dangerous? How does that word really describe the situation? Why not say Free food? That phrase has just as much of a chance to get foreigners attention!
First of all, I believe the foreign community should help the family be sure that the investigations are done thoroughly and as fast as possible, so it is possible to discover the reason of the boy’s death. I say the foreign community because as sad as it may sound, apparently the Koreans don’t want to do much. It hurts their pride, eventhough the ones that listen to the news may know that something sounds very wrong.
I am awfully sorry for the parents, and, if the boy cried for help and he wasn’t helped, I am ashamed, for being a kyopo, and knowing that it could happen that the Koreans there simply chose not to help him. If that really happened, I am awfully sorry that a mother has to go through this, and I don’t think it has much to do with speaking Korean or not.
Really, this case has to be investigated, and someone has to make sure that it is, and explain to the family, the foreign community, and, specially to the Koreans what happened exactly.
Again, let me repeat myself, the Sauna NEVER made an announcement at all, in English or Korean. Period. No Announcement. I’ve been there when they announced the closing of the pools, and it’s loud and can be heard throughout the bathing/changing/pajama areas.
I want to thank everyone who has expressed kind thoughts, prayers or advice & information. It’s a trying time and it does make it easier when folks are so willing to share information and spread the word. Thank you, sincerely, heartfelt thanks.
Alejandro: do you find that passive aggression usually gets you good results in a discussion?
I have been surprised by your wrong-headed thinking on this issue (why would you say 명복을 빕니다 to an English speaking mother anyway?), and questionable judgement in lending credence to Pawikirogi (try substituting another name: I don’t normally agree with Lyndon Larouche, but…; there is a way to make your points without making the most odious poster look like the reasonable person that he isn’t).
You obviously have some some intelligence as well as Korean language ability and Korean experience. You do make some good points at times, but you risk smothering that with your passive aggression and false questions.
I am awfully sorry for the parents, and, if the boy cried for help and he wasn’t helped, I am ashamed, for being a kyopo, and knowing that it could happen that the Koreans there simply chose not to help him.
Collective guilt is a shaky concept and it certainly doesn’t apply here.
Deep inside Pawi is a reasonable person who is surrounded by a Beowulfian monster. It might be convenient to automatically reject whatever he says, but every so often he hits on a hard truth that should be aired out, deodorized, and then analyzed.
That’s my plan, to help kill Pawi’s monster. And I’ll use this alter ego only for that purpose. Sorry, Dogbert, if it seemed I was piling on.
The Internet, ladies and gentlemen. Where alter egos have alter egos.
#27 “Iheartblueballs comment 2 days ago on safety in Korea should really be the final word from us on this case.”
I’d like to read that comment. Where can I find it? I don’t see it under this post, and a search for “iheartblueballs” didn’t bring it up.
Thanks.
Often a person’s good and bad qualities are two sides of the same coin, and one cannot co-exist without the other.
In respect of the COEX and the Emergency Medical Services Act amendment (the “Amendment”), Art. 14, item 8 of the Amendment requires certain tourist facilities (among others) to train employees in lifesaving techniques and use of lifesaving equipment. Those facilities are hotels and timeshare condominiums, international conference centers, casinos, and amusement centers (looks like Lotte World, but probably also means indoor golf driving ranges and the like). There is also a “tourist-use facility” definition which doesn’t make all that much sense — tourist-use facilities are also required to undergo this training.
However, these public accommodations are not subject to the new Art. 47-2 of the Amendment requiring purchase of automated defibrillators. That’s applied to a narrower set of public accommodations which we would call “common carriers” — mostly transportation services like buses, planes, trains, etc.
Whitey:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-153901
and
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-153935
Mr. Carr – since I plan on bringing this up with our facility management team this afternoon, I’m anticipating that their first objection will be that since we’re not required to have AED/PAD, we’re not permitted to either. Does the act state or imply that, to your knowledge?
Pawi’s conscience: is this Alejandro under a new name?
“It might be convenient to automatically reject whatever he says, but every so often he hits on a hard truth that should be aired out, deodorized, and then analyzed.”
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, right? But that doesn’t mean you should hang it on your wall for people to tell the time, does it?
I am sure even Robert Mugabe is nice to his grandkids, and the leaders of Burma’s military junta have their tender moments also. Doesn’t mean we quote them or support them when a truth happens to fall from their lips.
It doesn’t matter whether Pawi speaks from evil intent or from pure misguided ignorance. Why? My take on Grey’s Law: “Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.”
Sonagi, I don’t think that describes Pawi. I think the boa constrictor of his hatred is suffocating the opossum of his better nature.
Obamafan, you are comparing Pawi with murderers. In your head is Pawi really that bad?
mrs. white. my heart goes out to you. I know far too well how incompetent the medical staff and police can be. Stay strong and do not stop fighting for justice.
# 43
Mrs. LinkD
I asked around and facilities like COEX are indeed not included in the said amendment. I will clarify whether having AEDs in places like COEX is not mandatory or not authorized at all.
Seems like the amendment is not really about public access defibrillation after all. In the US, as you may already know, laymen are authorized to operate AEDs and the USFDA requires that AEDs meant for public access should be designed such that even untrained laymen are able to operate them. The same is also true in Japan where AEDs are placed in public places like malls and laymen are authorized to use them.
I think that this is where lobby groups could come in. More data should be provided so that the amendment could be amended.
As you may already know, for sudden cardiac arrest (due to ventricular fibrillation), the chance of a victim’s survival decreases by 10% for every minute that shock delivery is delayed. So the question is, for public places not covered by the amendment, can the emergency medical services in Korea respond to a sudden cardiac arrest in less than 10 minutes?
“there is a way to make your points without making the most odious poster look like the reasonable person that he isn’t).”
And Obamafan, you can make your points without comparing a poster to Robert Mugabe, thereby making the poster look reasonable in comparison to you.
AEDs are amazingly useful. Because of that time-delay/survival factor, on-site responses either by an average person or trained average person (most CPR programs in U.S. also accompanies training in AED usage) is critical. Actually…
What is the argument against making AED public-accessible?
If they’re allowed, we’ll get them. It might have to wait until the next budget period, as we’ll need multiple units to cover our area, but we’ll get them.
A mother lost his boy. I’m Korean myself, and whether it was the incompetence of the paramedics, or sauna attendant, this is no place to play blame games.
Just because one Korean was incompetent, that doesn’t make all of us a moron.
This could have happened anywhere in the world, and fact remains ,a mother lost his boy. My deepest condolecence.
May Mike rest in peace.
“He (Lee Jeong-seop, the manager of the sauna) said that as Michael was over six feet tall and weighed more than 100 kilograms, no one assumed he was a child in need of help but an ADULT KIDDING AROUND.”
It’s a part of the text published in the korea times:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....24608.html
Please… Put that phrase in any newspaper of any country around the world and think if you could digest that. I feel insulted (I’m not talking about the Korea Times, but about the belief of the person who said it, that other people would just read his phrase and say “oh, now I understand”…). I have been to a sauna once and saw a young woman fainting and being helped right away by the ladies around her. I’d be very disappointed with Korea, which I think is a great country, full of incredibly energetic good people, but with a very complicated history and social issues, if nothing was done, by the Korean community or media (at least published in Korean, for respect), regarding this problem. Just don’t turn it to an invisible incident. This is not about judging who is good or evil, but yes, it is a time to say “I’m sorry for knowing what could happen”, if I FEEL sorry (because it’s ME) and I KNOW it could, and before you say sorry, you should admit that something to be very sorry about has happened.
for some reason, my posts are either not posted or deleted. what kind of bs is that? both the US and ROK are nations found on democratic beliefs and free speech is guaranteed on both. did i insult michael or his mother? no i did not. i just had a different perspective on this matter and you all just don’t want to face it. what a shame.
Yes, they are. So are property rights, which means I don’t have to allow your comments to be posted if I don’t like them.
BTW, Pawi, next time you try to beat the ban, at least try to appear like a separate commenter. Capitalization would be a good start.
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