UPDATE 4: Socius in Daejeon has more.
UPDATE 3: You know what I find disheartening about this? This happened five days ago, and still no news. Meanwhile, on the day before he died, Yonhap reports that some dumbass Canadian college lecturer in Busan got busted trying to mail himself pot. That made the news. A kid mysteriously dying in a crowded public sauna with accusations of gross negligence? Not newsworthy.
UPDATE 2: There’s going to be a vigil tomorrow for Michael:
I am writing to let you know about a silent compassion vigil being held at the American Embassy in Seoul on Friday, May 16th, 2008 from 8:30 am onward. The vigil is being held in the memory of Stephen Michael White. There will also be another silent vigil at the Gyeongsan Royal Hawaii Sauna on Sunday, May 18th. (Gyeongsan is a 10 minute train ride from DongDageu Station).
ORIGINAL POST: Got a really distressing — and infuriating — email this morning from a reader telling me of the tragic death of a 14-year-old son of a foreign English teacher in a sauna in Daegu. Mike McStay in Daejeon has been covering it on his blog, and all I have to say is I’m completely speechless. To give you the summary I got in the email:
There has been no coverage of this story, and it’s heartbreaking. A 14 year old boy, Mike, died in a sauna this past weekend. The sauna staff assumed he was dead and waited almost an hour to notify his mother in the women’s area. Turns out he WASN’T dead, but because they waited so long to try to revive him, he ended up dying.
The Daegu police are not conducting an investigation. They started one later, but they won’t even give the victim’s mother, Stephannie, a copy of the police report (I suspect that none exists).
From Mike McStay’s blog:
What do you call it when a room full of men/boys doing their family bathing before the Buddha holiday just turn their backs on someone who’s coughing & retching so bad that there’s extensive damage to his throat, lungs & back of the mouth. What do you call it when ’someone” called him in DOA at 11:02, the mother isn’t notified until 11:45 and she arrives in the parking lot to discover that the DOA is actually alive & NOW doesn’t have proper help because the WRONG type of ambulance was sent.
The mother now has a page open on Facebook with information on this tragedy.
My condolences got to Stephannie White at this difficult time.
UPDATE: I’d be irresponsible if I didn’t point out that so far, there have been no reports on the death, so there are many unanswered questions and nothing you read is “official.” I just called the establishment in question (note to fellow bloggers/netizens: I’d remove the name of the place for legal reasons), and they couldn’t even confirm whether an incident took place (BTW, I don’t blame them for that — obviously, this is not something you discuss with every Tom, Dick and Harry that calls), and the person who might be able to wasn’t in (probably not smoke & mirrors, given I called at lunch). There could very well be more sides to this story; we’ll have to wait to learn more.
99 Comments
That is a horrific story. I cannot imagine the shock and grief that Mike’s mom is feeling right now.
Is anyone aware of any studies done by anyone anywhere that would shed some light on this bizarre and wholly negligent behavior?
And are the cops involved here a part of the same shop that a few years past charged a (Korean) woman with assault for biting off the tongue of a (Korean) man in the midst of his attempting to rape her?
Jesus Christ. Such traces of blatant neglect are mind-numbing. That’s inhuman… there’s just no other word for it. None.
That story made me feel sick…those stupid fucks
I am even having trouble clicking on the facebook portion that would allow me to perhaps share in the mother’s grief and anger. Although my imagination cannot encompass the reality of it, what it skirts is scaring me.
these kinds of things happen here in the states too. let’s not blame the entire korean population, ok?
I’m afraid this is going to get ugly. I hope Mike’s mom doesn’t see what’s going to happen on this thread. - Note: the ‘related posts’ box, above, is a little tasteless.
I don’t control the “Related Links.” The program does that on its own based on some algorithm I won’t pretend to understand.
I’m not going to blame anyone based on nationality.
But I AM going to blame each and every person who heard this boy’s distress and did nothing to help him. That is inhuman and they have no excuse for not helping him.
From the story it sounds like they just waited for him to die. And, in fact, they were eager for him to die because they called his death before it happened, and tried to ship him out of there as if he was dead, while he was still barely alive. They didn’t even check. This is an appalling, inhuman catastrophe and everyone in that jimjilbang is an animal.
@Rockchuck
It’s called Genovese syndrome or bystander effect. Personally, I like to call it criminal negligence/incompetence. But that’s just me. This is fucking horrible…
Also, can we like, ignore #6 and avoid a flame war?
Rockchuck:
The average Korean’s complete indifference to all those subsumed under the word “남” is something that the average Westerner will have a hard time understanding. Add to that (in this case) the Korean’s horror of the ill and afflicted (including ill Koreans). Add to that the Korean assumption that whatever illness a foreigner has, it’s going to be much worse than anything a Korean would have. And there you go.
A terrible story. I feel so bad for the parents.
Did the boy drown? Why did he start coughing?
What happened to the boy?
‘The average Korean’s complete indifference to all those subsumed under the word “남” is something that the average Westerner will have a hard time understanding. Add to that (in this case) the Korean’s horror of the ill and afflicted (including ill Koreans). Add to that the Korean assumption that whatever illness a foreigner has, it’s going to be much worse than anything a Korean would have. And there you go.’
‘Also, can we like, ignore #6 and avoid a flame war?’ bun
#16,
As I was saying in #13.
What a tragedy. My thoughts are with the family. Thanks for posting this, and please keep updates coming.
From Mike’s blog:
“I am writing to let you know about a silent compassion vigil being held at the American Embassy in Seoul on Friday, May 16th, 2008 from 8:30 am onward.”
Anybody in Seoul, think about going, even just for a while to show your face.
so many here will use this to indict the entire korean population. just look at post 11 for a bit of that. here’s some questions i have:
how long had the boy been coughing? was his parents aware of his cough prior to their visit to the sauna? what was the boy coughing up? was he just coughing up phlegm? was it blood? what is meant by ‘wretching’? does that mean he was vomiting?
i think there’s more to the story than the expat version of events.
Insert legal advice here, Barrister Carr.
Firstly, my commiseration to the parents for their loss. I have a daughter who is eight and pray that I never experience such horror or ever feel the depth of their grief. This is absolutely disgusting to say the least. As human beings we have unwritten moral obligations to help our fellow man. It is a sad commentary on the level of backwardness that exists here when people lose their spines in the face of adversity. I wonder if this would have been in the news if this child was a Korean national. AH, before you get your backs up and charge a snap response, I am married to a Korean and have been here for 14 years. …. Douma
That’s bloody tragic, my thoughts are with the family. The carelessness, incompetence and stupidity of the sauna staff, Police and bystanders is truly shocking.
Pawi why don’t you shut the fuck up and go and troll elsewhere? Have some respect you peasant.
Pawi is probably right, there is always more than meets the eye. There are many questions that need to be answered, and probably never will be. Besides, no answer can dissuade a mother’s grief. My heart goes out to her.
I agree that Pawi is probably right. Always listen to both sides of the story. It’s not fair if we are only allowed to criticize the sauna people, with the family itself exempted from even the hint of criticism for reasons of compassion or courtesy.
Accidents happen everywhere.
But widespread negligence, indifference, inappropriate or clueless reactions, ignorance of proper emergency measures and guidelines, and absolutely unprofessional responses by supposed “professionals” in law enforcement and emergency services is what differentiates a country I would raise my child in from one in which I would not.
Very simply, you put your trust in the training and competence of people wherever you go. By that simple metric, most of Korea fails miserably. There is a long, tragic record of these failures on display for anyone that takes a cursory look. I hate to put it in these terms, but if you’re not aware of that record and the general disregard for safety that exists throughout the country, then you really don’t belong there.
The sad fact is that Koreans themselves accept and tolerate that basic disregard and the considerable toll it takes on their own people in the name of profit, ppali ppali, and doing anything and everything they possibly can quickly and cheaply.
And please, spare us the links to something similar happening in Topeka, Melbourne, or Manchester. The issue is not whether this kind of negligence occurs elsewhere. The issue is how often, to what degree, and what the response is when it does occur.
I’ve re read the blog, but still not certain why the boy died. What did the boy die from? What are the sauna people saying? What explaination did they give for waiting an hour before doing anything? Can anyone fill in the puzzles?
I think blueballs and pawi both have a point.
And let me ask: If a Korean woman left her 14 year old boy alone in an American sauna with a bunch of naked strangers with whom he was unable to communicate, and then failed to check up on him for over an hour, and then this happened, would Americans focus their criticism exclusively on the sauna?
americans care about safety because americans care about money. when koreans create the same kind of sue culture the us has, the safety standards will improve.
you should be careful in labelling what is human as being uniquely korean, blue.
Pawi, you’ve been a good friend to this blog, and I value how you balance out some of the anti-Korean opinion on this blog.
That being said, sometimes, you can really be a dick. A woman’s child just died, and you’re accusing her of withholding the truth because, as your comment implies, she’s “an expat.”
And I’ll say this once, Pawi. Yeah, some people will use the incident to blame all Koreans. That’s too bad. And you’re right, Pawi — these things also happen in the States. When they do, however, we usually have “community organizers” on hand to protest and remind everyone just how racist “AmeriKKKa” is. As far as I know, there are no “expat” Al Sharptons or jerkoffs like this protesting in front of Daegu Police Station yelling “no justice, no peace.”
That’s all I’m going to say to you Pawi on this thread. This is one thread I do not want to feed the trolls.
The Koreans probably ignored the poor boys cries for help because 1) they were too focused on protesting the importation of US Beef and impeaching president Lee MB or 2) too afraid to approach him out of fear of catching Mad Cow Disease.
“A woman’s child just died..”
Well, either the thread should be devoted exclusively to commiseration, or both sides should be able to debate the issue freely.
I’m not sure what this post should be devoted to, but I liked it when Robert told pawi he is a dick.
…Point being these people didn’t do diddly squat to help out because they were “busy” trying to cover their own hides. Everyone knows that the average Korean will not attempt to help someone in need out of fear of being involved in any repercussions that may follow after. This ofcourse is until a group of people get involved, then they feel more secure because the “blame” for anything will be spread out. Sad but true fact. My condolences go out to the family of this tragedy.
If you want to debate the issue, fine. There ARE a lot of questions that need to be answered. But if I’d have responded to, say, the Sean Bell killing by saying, “I think there’s more to the story than the black peoples’ version of events,” I’d be slammed as a racist and told to fuck off.
Does everyone know that? Because I certainly didn’t.
“But if I’d have responded to, say, the Sean Bell killing by saying, “I think there’s more to the story than the black peoples’ version of events,” I’d be slammed as a racist and told to fuck off.”
There’s more to every story than just one side’s version of it. If that basic truth can’t even be mentioned, then we might as well just have a thread devoted to 명복을 빕니다’s.
“I’d be slammed as a racist and told to fuck off.”
That happened to pawi back in 2003, yet he remains harder to kill off than Hillary.
I don’t know if there’s any point in debating any of this until there’s more information available. Until then, our energy would be better spent writing letters or attending vigils that appeal FOR such information to be obtained and publicized, rather than harping at each other,
“You don’t know it is!”
“But you don’t know it isn’t!”
“But you’re a dick, and you don’t know it is!”
“But YOU’RE a super-mega-dick and you don’t know it isn’t!”
As it is, details are sketchy, so I hope a proper investigation occurs:
From Bill Kapoun’s facebook page, in response to the question, “Was it arson?”:
Answer:
“We will never know. We had to sign papers terminating the investigation in order to have Billy’s body released.”
A horrible tragedy. I really feel for his mother, his family and friends left behind from such as a tragedy.
I hope his mother can find real answers to what actually occurred and be able to find some comfort that this tragedy has really affected thousands of people here who never met the young man who passed away.
Rest In Peace.
A terrible way to die especially for young person with so much life left to live.
“If that basic truth can’t even be mentioned, then we might as well just have a thread devoted to 명복을 빕니다’s.”
Well, I’m sure one of the posters would write an update when the circumstances and the other side’s stories are published. Right now, we would only be speculating… (though I am inclined to think that negligence and incompetence on the part of the spa is pretty much clear).
A thread devoted to 명복을 빕니다’s wouldn’t hurt.
In other words, now that he’s dead, who cares?
As opposed to continuing to investigate in order to 1) Confirm or eliminate the possiblity that it was murder, and that an arsonist may still roam free with the potential to harm others, or 2) Uncover the possibility of faulty wiring or other dangers that exist in the building that could potentially do harm to others, or 3) Attempt to find out the cause as a basic service to the families of those killed in the name of providing answers and closure, or finally 4) Because it’s your fucking job.
None of those however, seem to register with people simply anxious to avoid any kind of responsibility or blame, avoid further work, and avoid putting actual effort into finding answers that may cast a negative light on themselves, their superiors, or those they’re beholden to. Because if there are no answers, then there is also no blame, no more paperwork, no demotions, and no liability.
So the Kapoun family faces a Sophie-type choice: Give up possession of their loved one, or give up hope that they’ll ever get any answers or closure regarding how he died.
That they were forced into that ridiculous choice, and were not able to expect and demand both, is an indictment of the mindset that surrounds “accidents” in Korea, that was also apparent in the reported reaction of staff, EMTs, and police in the case of Mike White.
“or both sides should be able to debate the issue freely.”
The kid is dead because he didn’t get the care he needed in a timely manner. What is there to debate?
Robert won’t tell you to fuck off, but I will.
#33)
Whereas…
- Twice to my knowlege, once on the 경부고속도로 and once North of Seoul, there were incident where USFK soldiers driving by where the only individuals to bother to stop and render assitance to critically injured people in an automobile accident
- Once in 안성 where I’ve witnessed the immediate aftermath of two individuals run over by a delivery driver, one laying motionless and the other writhing in pain; the delivery driver weeping in fear of the consequences himself; and the traffic cop standing by dping nothing but continueing to directing traffic inches from the injuring people heads all the while decrying “dammit, I told them no to cross the road!”
- Once where I was the only one in a group of hikers who rushed over to help a lady about to fall off a friggin cliff at the top of a mountain (there was a ledge 11 feet below her, but were she to fall it was likely she would have continued rolling down the mountain side…. )
- Stories of my grandfather who, after the Korean War, witnessed two drivers back over the skull of an individual sleeping in the shade of thier truck, point and laugh at his body as it seizured like a decapitated chicken….
I can’t help but pick up on a distrubing, bewildering and yet prevelent behavior pattern expressed by so many members of this society. In light of this story I would be inclined to add to this list (which is not exhastive to begin with), were it not for the fact that several key questioned remain unanswered and judgement best be reserved until such time.
A few years ago my (Korean) wife’s Uncle died.
He was living alone in a small apartment and at the time was on vacation from work. This was in summer. He was discovered dead in his apartment, approximately 3 days after he died.
Was an autopsy performed? No
Was the body examined by a medical practitioner? No
All that happened is some cop took a look at the body, pronounced that he died from natural causes, and that’s it.
Had there been a fan in the room at the time, we know what the cause of death would have been.
Fundamentally gross incompetence is rife in Korea, from the police to the average driver and pedestrian. When surrounded by such gross incompetence and indifference, it is important for all of us to be very careful, at all times.
Finally since the boy is an American citizen would’nt his death be investigated by a US government coroner, abviously there are jurisdictional issues, but at least a medical examination of the body.
Rest in Peace, Michael.
@ 25-
Don’t assume that Mike couldn’t communicate with the locals (that is, when he had a voice to communicate with, a bit irrelevant in this event) by virtue of being American or otherwise. Their family has been in Korea for a while (I know them personally), and although I don’t know if he knows how to ask for help in Korean (and does it work?) I’m sure he could get by.
This is a situation that is calling for more information, and as humans caring about other humans, it’s a matter of working together to demand that information. If this happened to one of the Koreans I know, I would be no less concerned nor vocal about the seeming ineptitude abounding in this situation.
There’s also going to be a vigil at the Jjimjilbang (hit the Facebook group for information) on Sunday.
Rest in Peace, Michael.
Well, I’d be very careful on dissing the patron’s of the sauna too much. If you’ve ever read about the bystander effect…well…it can happen to anyone. Fucking shame on the STAFF of that place though. 1 hour before even notifiying the very obviously foreign parents? And they thought he was dead from the get-go?
“both sides should be able to debate the issue freely.”
The kid is dead because he didn’t get the care he needed in a timely manner. What is there to debate?
Robert won’t tell you to fuck off, but I will.”
Right back at ya.
I emailed my editor at the Korea Herald about this. I encourage all expat living writers to do the same.
On the facebook site, it claims the boy was murdered. On the blog, it says he drowned in a shallow pool. On this site, people are waxing rabidly pious as if they witnessed the incident itself.
Does anyone have anything more substantial to go on?
Condolences to the mother. I hope they get to the bottom of it.
This is truly tragic.
I think I’ve experienced both sides of what people are arguing out in this thread.
In Korea it’s common for cars not to move out of the way of ambulances. I see this almost daily. I’ve also seen a huge group of people walk away from a man who collapsed in the middle of a festival, watching him have a massive seizure from several meters away. I even had a co-worker get hit by a car my first year in Korea. The only person who stopped was the driver. He didn’t stop to help, but rather to berate her for being in his way.
But my own experience has been somewhat different. The best example was a trip I took to 안면도. I ended up with a wicked sunburn and decided to spend the night at a 찜질방 because the sleeping room was air conditioned. I’ve never had so many people ask if I was OK, offer to get me water, aloe or whatever I needed, and just care in general.
All Koreans are not one certain way, but even if they were it wouldn’t bring back this poor kid.
This is a tragic story but you have to remember that it happened in Korea, a place where people are not even taught to look both ways before they cross the street.
Two days ago, a helicopter crashed in Cranbrook, BC, and landed on a Kenyan student. Does this make all Canadians bad?
Finally, if a Korea kills 20 other Koreans, or a couple of hundred in the case of the Daegu Subway Massacre, that is fine. However, if a waygook has a traffic accident that kills two Koreans, that is a crime against the entire Deahan Minguk that must be punished with whippings, lashings, apologies, prostration and calls for lynching from “netizens.”
And it will never change.
replying to #17
Mike was in perfect health as was confirmed by the autopsy. The official cause of death is suspicious drowning. His heart was fine, no sign of heart attack or angina. He was coughing & retching up food & after a about 10-15 more minutes of this, blood. Retching is when you throw up & it is sucked back into the lungs. A horrible way to suffer. There were no head tramas, although the autopsy doctor was evasive about any body bruises.
When a drowning victim is conscious, they retch. When a drowning victim is unconscious, they dont retch, but instead they have convulsions emptying the lungs of air.
Sorry if I sound a bit ticked off at the moment… currently in anger stage of grief.
And further more, Mike could communicate in Korean although not fluently or eloquently. He has been in & out of saunas for 4 years in Korea & around hot tubs back home. He’s had 3 years of swimming lessons & snorkeled with his Mom. He was supposed to get his PADI at 16, so he & mom could scuba together.
And as for the mother “checking” on her 14 year old son… just how would I do that you idiot. no cellphones allowed (you might take pictures!) I couldn’t just stroll over to the men’s side now could I? Now, if he were 5-7 yea maybe I can see your point, but he’s a 14 (almost 15) 6 ft shoulder breadth over 2 feet mountain boy from the Appalachians. He was tougherna pine knot and all he needed was a little help (at first)
Are you posers or posters? to the flamers from Mike’s Mom, why cant you use your “flame power” for Mike instead of against him~ its a pathetic use of synergy. May what you send out return to you 100 fold and with haste.
This is a tragic incident.
Perfect incident mirroring Korean society how badly the 안전 불감증 (insensibility to safety ?) damaging us especially for minors due to our low safety awareness. Regrettably this is my motherland where the school no longer provide proper educations, where the basic guideline does not applies, same shit happens every year, innocent children get kill. We Korean invest so much money on after school classes for college entrance exam, English. I don’t think we ever seriously learn about first-aid nor safety programs. Even if there was a class I doubt that no single student take it as seriously. As it’s not the part of their curriculum. There will be a protest from parents if the education ministry try to give more hours on it and lessen the core subject (Korean, English, Math,..). I think bystanders in this Deagu sauna place also didn’t just know what to do/how to deal when this kind of incident happen in front or their eyes. I don’t know how long it will take us to wake up on 안전 불감증 and how seriously it’s affecting society and the future. Korean society should know that this 안전 불감증 will kill thousands more innocent souls than Mad Cow Disease. It’s not the right place to raise kids.
My condolences go to Ms. White at this difficult time. Rest in peace Mike.
Should she have walked into the men’s section then? Spending an hour in the sauna is not unusual, and a 14-year-old boy, who looked quite large in the photo, is old enough to fend for himself.
Yes, that’s true. However, this is not the way to express that thought:
A grieving mom seeking answers is denigrated as “the expat.” Too bad there weren’t special services for the emotionally impaired back when Pawi was in school.
I doubt very much the owners of the sauna will read this blog, but the heartbroken mother might and her friends do. Even if I thought the mom was negligent in some way (which I don’t), I wouldn’t express that thought right now. She’s suddenly lost her son under troubling circumstances. She needs compassion and understanding. Period. Full stop.
sure, nobody at this point really knows what happened, but…what country can you name where you think these type of events MAY occur:
1. a big white kid choking and retching in a pool and no one wants to help cause he is foreign and the vomit smells bad and it’s dirty. oooooh dirty!
2. a hung over pool manager with a false sense of national superiority that would no more make the effort to help a foreigner in distress than a dog in the street.
3. a death case being handled by a xenophobic police force mannned by pimply faced social outcasts avoiding military service, and led by some career drinkers that don’t want too much hassle that might interfere with their “off work activities”
4. a culture where no one would contact the mother of the boy IN THE SAME BUILDING!!! because the boy and his mother were not natives, and therefore not awarded the care and courtesy due to real human beings.
hmmm. I wonder in what country such a strange sequence of events could ever play out…
It’s so sad the kid died. It’s tragic that he died in a place where none of the locals gives a crap.
#52,
Just to take your idea a step further- I know in Canada, there are laws that for every five employees, one must have a valid first aid certificate (you have to do the 15 hour training every couple of years to keep it valid).
Maybe that’s not practical for every office in Korea, but surely something similar would be helpful for places like schools, restaurants, saunas etc.
My deepest condolences to the victim and the bereaved.
This is a blunt comment.
A 14 year old kid drowns in a sauna. Nobody is contacted for an hour.
I hope that autopsy included a check for male rape, because I think rape/murder would be the first thing on any non-Korean cop’s mind.
57: I’m with you there. It’s a travesty that there was such an egregious lack of first-aid preparation and basic “in case of X, do Y” protocol training in a sauna, where slippery surfaces, hard rock edges, alcohol, old people with bad wheels, running kids, shallow pools, and powerful water-pumps all mix together.
I think it’d be best to leave the speculation for a time when there’s more information available, #59.
“May what you send out return to you 100 fold and with haste.” - hear hear.
Deep condolences, Stephannie, and anyone else reading this who knows Mike.
Welcome to the dark side of Korea. Child abuse is so rampant here i dont think any of you Americans have a clue to just how much.
You were obviously abused as a child.
Probably by your mom ecstatic about your “gochu”.
To repeat what Roboseyo said in #60, but this time in reference to #61, I think it’d be best to leave the speculation for a time when there’s more information available.
It goes without saying that this is a tragedy. However, I also tend agree with Blue Balls and, surprisingly, the Marmot’s Hole’s very own syphilitic sore, Pawisodomy.
Although Koreans love to masturbate all over themselves how high-tech the country is because everybody has access to fast porn downloading broadband, the place is still way behind advanced countries in services.
If there wasn’t any foul play involved, I’m sure this story is about the typically low-paid morons—and I do mean stupid– who work at these service jobs in Korea. They usually make 3000 won an hour. They usually sit behind a desk, listen to crappy K-pop, or play with their favorite toy, the cell phone. The ambulance drivers…please. The same nitwits who watch taxi drivers drive faster than them. As for medical expertise, remember: Roy De Soto and Johnny Gage from Rampart Gen aren’t showing up most of the time.
In my years living in the China’s soon-to-be Korean Autonomous Province, regarding services Koreans usually have three ways of dealing with gweilo: 1) they either give the most awe-inspiring “emperor treatment” to the point it annoys the hell out of you, 2) they are irritable and outrageously lazy to the point they wouldn’t spit on your guts if you were on fire, or 3) extremely shy, nervous, and do not want to do ANYTHING to disturb you. My guess is this is a mix of 2 and 3, especially with cosmopolitan Daegu.
For once, I agree with the sore. I always hate the way many Koreans will compare situations to justify bad behavior, e.g. if ferry sinks, you’ll hear people say, “the Titanic lost more people.” Yet, this could have happened in any country. Stupid people are everywhere. Once again, if there was no foul play, it sounds like a combo of ineptitude and laziness.
I would get a second opinion about the cause of death just to rule out the foul play. There are a number of reasons this boy kid passed away. Have there been any detailed toxicology reports done?
I also completely disagree that nobody cares because he was a foreigner. I simply believe that’s an over- reaction. Koreans deal with shame and guilt differently than us. True, some may try to justify their stupidity and say claim it wasn’t their fault. But, I think people just forget we’re not living in an advanced country. This is a fact.
However, I think Ms. White needs to get a second opinion free a highly experienced medical examiner as soon as possible. One opinion is not smart.
In no way to attempt to be funny…I give me opinion about the following questions.
1. Are there government regulations about safety procedures both
for customers and staff in public baths? If yes, does Royal Hawaii
follow those regulations?
No. If there are, nobody follows them. People don’t even stop at red lights for pedestrians here.
2. Were resuscitation measures done before the paramedics arrived?
Most likely nobody knows or are scared to get involved.
3. Why didn’t the staff try to find Mother immediately?
Probably stupidity or laziness is to blame.
4. How come nobody tried to help Michael when he was coughing &
retching?
Koreans usually don’t help each other. For a country the loves ‘Uri’, ironically they don’t give a shit about any strangers. Also, maybe they thought he had a disease.
5. Why didn’t anyone come forward with a statement to the police
about what happened to Michael?
CYA…the most important rule to surviving the rat race of Korea.
6. What gives the Sauna the right/medical authority to call in a
false DOA?
There probably isn’t one. It’s a typical ‘sajangnim’ pretending to know everything because he is the OWNER or MANAGER. Simply gross stupidity.
It’s really shocking this story hasn’t been posted to any of major Korean web portals.
A strange story. Fair enough that the mother left her son in a room of naked men, but why didn’t her blog bloke buddy check on him?
And why has the Facebook person set up an account to ask for money?
Is it possible some of you are about to be taken for a ride?
Stephanie and friends you have my sympathy and I hope you find some answers and that these answers help you live through this.
Regarding the safety issue, couldn’t agree more. I worked in a 3rd floor Kindegarten. There was no fire evacuation drill and therefore no practices. No one besides the foreign teachers had first aid training (possibly the male manager that came in occaisonally had some in the army). When we went on excursions no roll was taken and I was looked at funny when I walked out in the middle of the road while crossing to make sure cars good see something above hip height crossing the road. Not to mention I spent most of lunch time removing sharp and hard objects from the play area.
And that is without my pet hatred of taxi’s with unreachable (because of seat covers) or non existant seatbelts.
Whew, that feels better.
My mistake. Her blog buddy was also a woman and I double-posted. However…
Why should he have been paying attention to his heart and breathing if he was in excellent health?
So it was a very crowded night and there might have been no-one on the Men’s side. Makes sense.
Maybe the story is not so complicated—a fat, sick boy dies in a sauna and no-one notices. The mother is upset and feels partly guilty and tries to shift all of the blame onto the RH Sauna.
Meanwhile, absolutely no more information.
Even seemingly healthy people can pass out if they stay too long in an overheated sauna.
There is a 45-minute time lapse between the time the staff called the ambulance and the time they told the mother. Doesn’t make sense to me.
The Korean doctor who performed the autopsy stated that the boy might have lived if he had received prompt medical treatment. Again, let me repeat that there was a 45-minute time lapse between the time the ambulance was called and the time it arrived and the mom was notified. The ambulance was expecting to pick up an already dead person, hence, the late arrival. Naturally, the mother is upset and wants answers.
I think you know all you need to.
The fact that this hasn’t been reported doesn’t make me wonder if there’s a conspiracy. It makes me wonder if it’s so common for people to die at saunas that it isn’t considered news.
Piper - at the US embassy this afternoon there was indeed a woman named Stephanie, dressed in black, asking people to sign papers printed with the questions so eloquently dealt with by the silver-tongued Colonel.
Also among her companions was a white guy in hanbok. Not the Marmot, but still, is there any better badge of credibility?
Piper — I met Ms. White in front of the US Embassy as well. She’s very much a real person.
And more to the point, both the Korea Times and Korea Herald ran pieces on it today — the Korea Herald piece quotes police and sauna staff.
72) It would be better if the Korean language press would take note.
59) That is chilling. While in the military I would generally spent the weekend nights in Jjimjilbangs because I was tired of being woken up in the middle of the night by contraband searches and drunken antics… Until I realized how many aggressive homosexuals hang out in the saunas looking for other single guys…
‘72) It would be better if the Korean language press would take note.’
why?
I believe the assumption is that Mike’s mother hopes that the police will pressure the sauna owner and staff for clearer answers to her questions, or perhaps that other witnesses will come forward with information - and that these events are more likely to occur if the story appears in Korean newspapers.
Outsiders seeking redress through the Korean press is a real longshot in the best of times. This case involves non-Koreans and facts and (non)actions that look likely to embarass the home team. I can’t see the vernacular media being helpful here.
You guys obviously need an Al Sharpton figure to publicly address expat grievances in Korea. I nominate the white guy in a hanbok for this role.
Japan has its “Debito”, after all…I second the nomination of the hanbok-wearer.
My last comment got labeled as jumping to conclusions.
Facts:
- The kid is 14.
- A doctor said he drowned WHILE conscious.
- Jimjilbang pools are at a depth where, if you stand up, the water is at your chest at most.
- If you were alone and retching out of control for 10 minutes, wouldn’t ANYONE throw their shirt on and stagger out of the sauna, especially knowing your mom is on the other side?
Murder seems the overwhelmingly likely option here. Conversely, that someone sat on a bench retching to death for 30 minutes without standing up and walking 5 feet out the door seems the overwhelmingly unlikely option to me.
‘Murder seems the overwhelmingly likely option here.’
so i get called a dick for using the word ‘expat’ but nobody says a word when the expat labels people he doesn’t even know as murderers. man! and you wonder the expat is so galling?
dick
Well, it was 10 o’clock on a Saturday morning when Johnson posted that foul comment, and it’s only been an hour.
So, let me be the first: Thank you, Johnson, for that bit of penetrating insight. Now, it might be nice if you kept such musings to yourself for a bit, don’t you think?
RE #80… Pawikirogi, your constant reference to the apocryphal “the expat” grates on a lot of people, but in #17 when you said “i think there’s more to the story than the expat version of events” it sounded like you were referring to the mother. That was way out of line.
Pawi, let the woman grieve. But to be fair I should say the same to wonorama and Johnson. This woman’s kid is dead, so just show a little respect. If you can’t, then don’t comment.
Pawi, I didn’t get any email from you. Please resend: pawis.conscience@gmail.com
“I doubt very much the owners of the sauna will read this blog, but the heartbroken mother might and her friends do. Even if I thought the mom was negligent in some way (which I don’t), I wouldn’t express that thought right now. She’s suddenly lost her son under troubling circumstances. She needs compassion and understanding. Period. Full stop.”
Yeah, uh-huh. Anyway: Can someone tell me if there is or isn’t a rule against unaccompanied minors in saunas? I was discussing this case with a Korean and the question came up.
Johnson — Let’s not speculate at this point.
pawikirogi — There’s a big difference between untimely speculation and denigrating a mother who just lost her child as an “expat.”
Or, in other words, Johnson’s comment is inappropriate at this time, but you’re still being a dick.
And for your information, Ms. White may very well be reading this. So, Pawi, if you feel the overwhelming urge to express your anti-white angst, please, do it in another thread.
‘pawikirogi — There’s a big difference between untimely speculation and denigrating a mother who just lost her child as an “expat.”’
let me explain something to you. when i referred to the ‘expat’, i was referring to the author of the post you linked which was NOT written by the mother.
OK?????????????
in other words, my use of the word expat was in reference to the michael mcstay you referenced. glad i could clear that up for you.
Piper, I’d really like to extend back to you your own disgusting sarcasm.
Why my friends are raising funds:
insurance doesn’t cover any expenses after death. I have to shoulder the morgue fees for storage while we wait for the autospy report to come back (about 2 million won) and I have to pay for a second autopsy (dont have an estimate on that but am looking) not to mention funeral costs.
I am paying out of my own pocket, not the fund, for the vigils (flyers, prayer cards etc) my friends have networked for a free lawyer and possible a free cardio expert to testify in court.
I am paying out of my own pocket for his medical record to be sent from back home to prove no preexisting condition.
And why does he have to pay attention to his heart & breathing in a sauna if he was healthy? What an idiot you are. EVERYONE SHOULD PAY ATTENTION~! this was just a statement of fact that Mike knew the safety rules about sitting in a hot sauna & going into a cold one too quickly.
Calling my kid “fat” when you’ve never met him is verging on some serious disrespect. He’s 6 foot tall with a shoulder breadth of over 2 feet. What are you some kinda freak you have to throw out negativity like this? If you want to raise questions, do so respectfully. And if you can’t have the guts to say it to me!
No, not OK, Pawi. If you’d read the post, you’d know the much of the post’s content was written by Ms. White.
Anyway, Pawi, between your behavior here and your first comment in the post above, I’ve decided to ban you for the time being. I can usually appreciate — or at least tolerate — your comments, but your attitude here has been nothing short of sickening.
This is tragic, but getting angry isn’t going to do shit for you.
Stacked — There are times when it’s better simply to say nothing.
Johnson and Piper: I assume that in the event someone dear to you dies tragically, you won’t mind hateful clowns like yourselves taking uninformed potshots in the name of “open debate.”
Sickening.
(Mr. Marmot - No chance you could extend the ban to them too, I suppose?)
I leave that option open, depending on their future behavior.
Thank you, Robert. I am sorry that Ms. White had to read tactless remarks from some EI commenters.
@91, anger isn’t going to lead this anywhere.
No one cared = dead kid
anger at people who dont care? Good luck.
As tragic as this is, you are forgetting the reputation America has sown for itself.
Could we get that open thread going so some of us can tell stacked, pawi, et al. what we think of their “analysis” in a more appropriate forum?
Along with Koehler’s confirmation, that seems to sort out the authenticity of the story. On another blog, they were saying that no-one was there. On the facebook page, everyone was writing that they couldn’t make it.
No disrespect intended. There were so many inconsistencies in the story that I was calling it as a hoax. It seems I was wrong, so I apologise for that and aggravating your unhappiness.
I am not sure where to send a message of condolence to Ms. White, so as it appears that she is following this thread, maybe here is the place, is anyone knows of a proper forum for a message of this type then please let me know.
Ms. White, reading the tragic story of your son, I was shocked. I extend my sympathies to you and your family. I hope that you receive great support through this difficult time, and that in your son’s memory, good things are accomplished.
Anyone remember Esmie Green? The woman from Jamaica who was allowed to die on the floor of the ER waiting room of King’s County Hospital in Brooklyn? Well, she died and there’s no changing that. BUT, the incident was dealt with swiftly and immediately with suspension and dismissal of all involved, including the Director of Psychiatry. My point in bringing this up? While in North America there have been brutal incidences of violence against humanity, there have also been systems of transparency that have served those who fight for justice for the victims of those crimes. That’s what the West has been able to offer the world as part of the effects of social globalization that has accompanied the more dubious and problematic phenom of economic globalization. Now, I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Korean women brutally beaten by their male partners in the streets of Seoul and where nothing was done and no one stopped to help because it was just not their problem. I have also seen instances of racial and cultural violence and discrimination go untreated because, well, no foreigner has the right to seek duress for crimes that could have been committed against their very presence. All Ms White is asking for is a transparent investigation into the death of her son and why and how the events occurred. I have not seen a single sentence of blame come from her postings or from her calls to action. The fact is…something happened to her son that none of us can fathom because we weren’t there. But other people were and I am sure there is at least one ajoshi who is absolutely aware of what transpired but will never come forward because this is a culture of collectives, not of individual agents and it will never be that way. This is why answers must be fought for. And Westerners are raised in cultures that are not fearful of transformation or of innovation. Fighting for justice for Ms White’s son does not mean in any way the defamation of Korean culture or of Korean people. But an analysis of why that fight must become a fight in the first place cannot avoid issues of cutural difference.
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