Sunny Lee at Asia Times writes about how the Borg of China™ may have shown Koreans that they are absolute pussies when it comes down to enthusiastic displays of nationalistic protest.
Per the article:
South Korea’s reputation as the world’s unparalleled bastion of nationalism and master of all forms of street protests - ranging from physical confrontations with riot police to peaceful candlelight vigils - was hurt last week by a formidable new challenger: Chinese student protesters in the Seoul leg of the Olympic torch relay…
Meanwhile, for South Koreans it was their first “up close and personal encounter” with Chinese nationalism displayed right in the heart of their home turf. They watched it with mixed, even complicated feelings — anger, awe, empathy and fear…
There is great similarity between the outbreaks of nationalism in South Korea and China. Both countries experienced humiliating setbacks at the turn of the modern era by more powerful nations.
So, there’s “great similarity between the outbreaks of nationalism in South Korea and China.” You don’t say?
More can be read here.
55 Comments
No way. Koreans are numbuh won (uri nara chwego) when it comes to nationalistic displays of insecurity! Korea fighting! No way the Chinese can match the grand superiority of Korean nationalistic idiocy! Korea wins..hands down.
That pretty much sums it up.
Well, maybe per capita wise, but…
Nah the Koreans still rank #1 in throwing nationalistic shitfit tantrums. The only reason why the Chinese display in Korea was so outta control goes along with the whole adage of - “when in Rome…”
Judge Judy, I was going to insert the same quote. “manic waves of wrath” has nice alliteration. It also strikes at the center of the disease. I’m suddenly a big Sunny Lee fan.
Koreans appear more nationalistic simply because the favored means of expression, rowdy demonstrations, are illegal in China although that doesn’t stop angry workers and peasants from taking to the streets to protest corruption and abuse. Westerners may chide the Chinese government for suppressing public dissent, but if the performance of the “jiayou” Red Guards in Seoul was any indication, banning political protests may not be such a bad thing. You think those boys from the Busan Chinese Student Association had fun kicking that ajosshi’s *ss? How much more fun could it be to kick a fat Western guy, especially if he looks like Jack Cafferty?
Nationalism is a cancer.
What about the riots against the Japanese in China in 2005? The Chinese mob destroyed Japanese restaurants, Japanese stores, Japanese cars, and attacked Chinese driving Japanese cars. Then there were the riots that almost ripped to pieces, the Japanese soccer team and their few fans that dared to win against the Chinese team, in Asian Cup.
Chinese target is not actually Japan, or Korea. It’s the West. Westeners have to wake up and smell the coffee. Typical Westerner’s view that the west can share prosperity with China is out of touch with reality. China’s goal is not to co-exist. Their goal is to put the west under the thumb of China and China revenging for their so called humiliation of the past. In short, they are out to kick you in the ass. They are angry and they are growing increasingly arrogant. China’s growing economic and military clout will mean one day, China will pose a grave threat to world peace. No Korean nationalism however that looks bad can compare to what is rising in the East.
th koreans are worse? excuse me? did the koreans riot in dc? can you show me any korean protests fueled by nationalism that was on par with those anti japanese riots that occured in china?
don’t bother with the tank incident since the girls killings were due to negligence.
cm is right about that.
@9: Negligence on the part of the girls.
Someone asked me about the meaning of my Korean name, and as I was thinking it thru, I noticed something about Hujin Tao.
He is not quite like Hitler, but his position and his policies draw some parallel.
Present day China is like Nazi Germany.
Berlin Olympics. Beijing Olympics.
Unlike the incompetent other portion of the sickle and hammer regime that ruled the world, China is productive, industrious, and amassing arms much like the 3rd Reich. With a lot of the brains behind the arms, being stolen by Chinese scholars in the US. These should be booted out, by the way.
The people are similar, too.
Fervent, almost unanimous denial that they have any problem at all.
Minority groups? Well, not quite any genocide yet, but they are essentially breeding out minor tribes.
China is dangerous. The Christian New Testament tells of the North King, and the East King. Just by sheer size, it must be Russia. The East, although I would like to cred Japan, but all common sense and by sheer numbers, it is China.
China is destined to be a player in the end of the world.
And, not a nice one.
Oh, yeah, you worry that South Korea is a Nazi regime?
I think you should look to China.
The irony here is something that is so clear yet, true.
The Communists became Nazis.
Nazi stands for Nationalist Socialism something something, I believe.
Just like China. Nationalist. Still Socialist.
China is the new evil empire.
cm is right; china is a cancer.
one of the things about China is the following true scenario. Jing is guilty of it.
Apple comes out with iphone.
A great phone.
China comes out with many copy cats.
Jing and others order the copy cat. Praise it and lift it for
1/ 1st and foremost being cheaper.
2/ 2nd, for having functions that are upgrades or new or better parts than the iphone.
3/ Ignores any sort of injustice in copyrights, etc.
4/ congradulates self for being so smart to save some money.
if China is going to be a major economic partner, they better stop copying dvds, industrial tech, military tech.
yeah, the world cannot afford to stop boycott Chinese business, but they seem to have no remorse at copying.
by the way, don’t expect the Beijing Olympics to be a smashing success.
Because it won’t be and can’t be.
“if China is going to be a major economic partner, they better stop copying dvds, industrial tech, military tech.”
but it’s worked so well for the hanguk..
# 16,
True… true.
And they are not done yet. The iphone? China may have copied it bolt for bolt, but Korean companies, although it’s not pure copying, they do a lot of following. Samsung Instinct… LG Voyager anybody?
I would love Korea, Inc. to give the world something original like Oldbo… wait. Oldboy was based on a Japanese manga so nevermind.
“can you show me any korean protests fueled by nationalism that was on par with those anti japanese riots that occured in china? ”
It just takes a few seconds to find video evidence of this on Youtube.
Oh, and don’t kid yourself, the protests about the APC accident were fueled by nationalism.
Why are so many people in here anti-China? I thought Koreans admire and look up to Chinese as sort of the “Grandfather” of all Asian culture and civilization.
Or at least, that’s what Chinese have told me that Koreans, Japanese, and Vietnamese alike do..
‘It just takes a few seconds to find video evidence of this on Youtube.’
lies.
# 19,
When China held all the keys to technology and civilization we adored her so we can continue to have access to it. However, once the sources of culture, technology and civilization could come from someplace else (i.e. the West) the other more unpleasant memories of this “sadae” relationship came up.
For example, to get access to these benefits, client states had to continuously kiss China’s ass. And no matter how “sinofied” we made ourselves, the Chinese still saw themselves as qualitatively better then everyone else. A relationship between equals was not something that China could understand, let alone accept. So we non-Chinese satellite states accepted her culture, but were always resentful of our place within her world, chiefly because we could never upgrade our place within it.
It was the same in the West. Rome and Greece considered themselves better then everyone else until their barbarian neighbors learned enough to survive without them. When Rome and Greece decayed, their carcasses just fertilized the civilizations of the people that they thought were inferior.
Unfortunately, China did not quite “fall” like Rome.
This article is inaccurate on two points.
1. The author infers that upsurge of nationalism prior to the Olympics was the cause of public demand for democratic reforms. The problem here is that the public demand for democratic reforms was hardly nationalistic. It was triggered by the death of a dissenter under government custody, and it was fueled by the long suppressed desires for democracy that has been simmering for decades.
2. Another is the claim that Korean nationalism and Chinese nationalism are similar. True, these two nationailsms were formulated in similar social environments. Both came to being in the fervent discourse against encroaching foreign imperialism. In this regard, both share the perception of victimization, which entails vengeful sentiments where provocative demands or even violence can be committed without guilt or remorse.
It is important however to recognize the fundamental differences as well. Despite having similar social environments in their conception, the two nationalisms developed into very different forms as their host societies underwent different social transitions after the WWII.
Korean nationalism is a form of ethnic nationalism that emphasizes difference, uniqueness and independence of one ethnicity and nation, the Koreans. Korean identity is an exclusive one that denies acceptance of other ethnicities and nations.
On the other hand, Chinese nationalism emphasizes upon similarities, commonness and unity of different ethnicities and nations under one identity, the Chinese. It is inclusive and yet exclusive, and the distinction is based on the current political state, the People’s Republic of China. In this regard, Chinese nationalism is very similar to Japanese imperial racism and Nazism, both of which were forms of nationalism that emphasized upon similarities, commoness and unity of a certain identity closely associated with a political state that encompassed multiple ethnicities and nations, and yet excluded itself from the outsiders. In case of Japanese racial imperiailsm, these outsiders were the European invaders. Take a guess who these outsiders are for the Chinese. It wouldn’t be too hard for those who dealt with Chinese nationalists.
Ironically, under the manipulation of the PRC government in its effort to use nationalism to justify its control over contested territories such as Tibet, Chinese nationalism has been twisted into a form of racial imperialism, the very ideology that it was created to resist. This form of racial imperiailism, coupled with the perception of victimization that comes from its conception, makes a very dangerous mix. Don’t be surprised if, several decades later, China wages war of “resurgence” to unite the “Sinic race” and restore its “grandeur” with absolutely no sense of guilt or remorse.
#20,
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-WOikcNwsM
Tame in comparison to the anti-American protests I’ve been to in the 90’s (people used to die at those), but violent nonetheless.
Best quote from the AT article:
Do you really have to ask?
21: There’s only one thing to say about your summary. The carcasses of Greece and Italy never rose again — or any other ‘Great’ civilization, for that matter. The current China is like a Zombie Dragon, grumpy and angry that she overslept. If China rises again, it will be to pave over the world and replace it with herself. Anyone ever read Chung Kuo: The Middle Kingdom? Expect a future China to be like the old China, except on a global scale… One China, One World. The Roof that Supports Heaven.
#23,
Those people have their livelihoods on the line. I think you should distinguish them from a mob motivated by something far more trivial, such as nationalism.
And what anti-American protests in the 90s are you talking about? Political extremists don’t count.
#@cydevil
So… Korean nationalism is isolationist nationalism while Chinese nationalism is expansionist nationalism?
“I would love Korea, Inc. to give the world something original like Oldbo… wait. Oldboy was based on a Japanese manga so nevermind.”
bumfromkorea,
if you have to put it so simply, I’d say you can say that. I’m not saying that Korean nationalism is not without its faults. I mean, just take a look at North Korea where Korean natinoalism is taken to its extreme. And I hope South Korean society would be more open to foreign expatriats and immigrants, especially those from 3rd world countries.
Speaking of North Korea, I believe China and North Korea are in fact quite similar. Both are former communist states under one-party dictatorships that are adopting nationalism in the ideological void of failing communism.
Okay, I’ll take the hammer and you can have that quirky North Korean designed mini-shot gun with a handle.
China is basically a poor country. With per capita income of $1000 per year, it is dirt poor.
The Chinese right now have deep-seated inferiority complex. This will burst one day in the form of a war.
War against the West? No, the war against Japan will come first.
Expect the second Sino-Japanese war within a decade or two.
The U.S. : Feeling the wind of the war (a TV series title!), the US will completely withdraw from Korea and Japan. It is back to WWII, China as Germany and Japan as England. Korea? Either France or Switzland, depending on how it plays. I think it may even be Italy.
Outcome: China and Japan will both annihilated with nuclear bombs. Koreans are all dead. The US will be the only winner selling fighter planes and tanks during the war and supplying food and medicine after the war.
These two countries which combined together holds 80% of the US debt will become debtor nations to the US.
America wins!
Italain dude,
Check out Egypt, Greece, Roma, etc.
Do they do what China is doing?
1/ Massive, irresponsible copying.
2/ Massive, irresponsible pollution. People are blaming Bush, but it’s not Bush. Hu Jintao is it.
3/ Massive, irresponsible development. This includes so many things, but gasoline supply has never grown while Chinese usage has definately grown in the past decade. What about changing the whole landscape of how food is grown in East Asia and Africa?
4/ Making satellite states, where life is shit for those people. Myanmar, North Korea.
5/ Criticizing the Iraq War, while justifying itself in supporting military dictatorships in Africa, by selling them weapons, and securing natural resource digging rights.
it’s so funny to hear americans condmn koreans for nationalism while they say nothing about american patriotism and a million dead iraqis.
korean nationalism vs american patriotism?
wonder which the iraqis would prefer.
#26,
How do you know that these people have jobs?
Political extremism doesn’t count? But, the argument is about political extremism, isn’t it?
Tell me, are the anti-Japanese protests in China not political extremism?
#33,
What’s that got to do with the discussion at hand? Besides, I’m neither American nor a fan of American nationalism.
By the way, you need to pick up a dictionary. Nationalism is not the same as patriotism.
The other night, I was watching Starship Troopers, the sci-fi movie based on a Heinlein book by the same title, which is full of references to the same sort of blind nationalism. The film features a humans vs. “the bugs” theme but try watching this film again and instead of the “Federation”, insert and country of choice into the name (China works well too). The movie is an apt portrayal of the dark side of human behaviour and how easily people can be moved by the scent of fascism.
And at #33, we have our obligatory pawikirogi Iraq reference. A bit early on this thread, but hey, defending Korean nationalism is a tall order. I mean, Korean nationalism may be responsible for all kinds of goofy nonsense, but it DIDN’T KILL ONE MILLION IRAQIS!
That’d be… Hu Jintao.
I don’t think that American “nationalism” has anything to do with the Iraq war. It’s basically a result of misguided selfish policies of an almost dictatorial president. Money talks in this case…not defending the smell of hot dogs (kimchi) to the point where internet wars will be started.
Also, if after a Sino-Japan war ensues as Baduk predicated. What will be the outcome? Do you think China, after having acquired Japan and most likely “absorbed” Korea, will be satisfied at that or will she try to take it to the next step? What will be the next step?
they don’t want a war. They want to be like old Russia in might.
They want a series of “yes states”, around their borders, especially borders to powerful nations.
They keep these border nations under a dictatorship that relies on China for food and natural resources.
Then, they act as if they’re the kindest charity in fucking earth.
Fucking assholes, that’s what they are.
Simply, they value being a cheapskate, copying, automatically assume superiority over neighbor tribes due to the culture they “reluctantly” spread, and have lost a lot of sense of morals on human rights and social responsibility. Partly due to the 1 child policy that isn’t really stringent, but good enough to generate lots of ass holes.
talk to one of them. They’ll brag to you about all sorts of ways they save money, and expect to be imitated or praised.
in my opinion, a lot of shady or time consuming things go about in doing what they do.
One thing they and the Koreans have in common.
go to McDonald’s, buy a coffee and take 30 napkins.
Morals. Social responsibility. A sense of doing right. Make the world a better place.
That’s all.
I think Korean nationalism is more dangerous to Koreans than it is to anyone else. How many Koreans have committed normal suicide, burned themselves alive, or cut off their fingers for blind nationalism? One would be too many.
they’ll suggest to you and brag about a way to save on rent.
go to chinatown, live with 5 guys in a room meant for one.
Again, morals, social responsiblity, a sense of doing right.
How about obeying local renting laws?
probably would make the world a better place.
Also I think blind nationalism is behind the idea that Koreans must work their asses off to be competitive on the world stage (i.e. to beat Japan). This leads to the idea that Korean children must study their asses off to be competitive in school. This leads to the next idea that expensive extracurricular education is mandatory for a successful life. Also, a related idea is that only certain schools and hagwons in Gangnam are sufficient for educating children, which drives up the housing prices and educational prices in Gangnam.
This whole clusterfuck of blind, ultra-competitive extreme nationalism drives up the cost of having children to insanely astronomical levels, which discourages people from getting married and having children in the first place. This has already passed the threshold where Korea’s population will decline in the future.
So, my conclusion is, the entire country is killing itself over blind nationalism.
wjk, your posts read like Zen koans. Is this intentional?
#39
I would agree, but I think that’s a very biased judgment. In Korea, I’ve noticed a tendency to evaluate things based on the effort put into it, rather than the result achieved (as a Westerner might do). Koreans always tell me that Korean mothers are the best in the world, because they sacrifice the most for their children. The argument doesn’t go anywhere, because myself and the Korean have totally different definetions of “best.”
Similarly, I think that a person who cuts his finger off for a cause, even if it didn’t help advance the cause in any tangible way, is still perceived as having made a great contribution. Whereas in the West, he would be laughed at and/or given counseling.
I’d love for someone who understands Korean psychology better than I to give us your thoughts on this.
“Okay, I’ll take the hammer and you can have that quirky North Korean designed mini-shot gun with a handle.”
I like my odds.
I loved the gun design for some reason… very… steampunkish.
@cydevil
Oh, no, any form of nationalism cannot be good. I was just trying to understand your point in a more condensed version.
I think the term “blind” nationalism is redundant, because in my opinion the blindness of nationalism is its key difference from patriotism (where you actually care about your country to criticize it).
I would call most of Fox pundits nationalists, and I would call Jon Stewart a patriot (bear with me, I’m a bleeding-heart social liberal kid in college :-D).
@#44
I think that is a very interesting and very much valid way of approaching the logic behind self-mutilation. Having spent most of my educational years in the U.S., I cannot rid myself of the reaction “that’s just fucking crazy” towards such acts, but the ‘effort-based’ merit system as opposed to ‘result-based’ merit system sounds pretty solid.
Pawi, sometimes you have something to say but you hopelessly muddy it with your worst instincts to bash the apocryphal “expat” and that guarantees that almost no one will pay attention to your message.
I’ll make you an offer. Whenever you get the itch to comment, email the comment to me first, I’ll edit it into something more palatable, and then the other commenters can focus on your ideas instead of your caricatured identity.
This is a serious proposal. Email me at pawis.conscience@gmail.com. I’m here to help.
“One thing they and the Koreans have in common. Go to McDonald’s, buy a coffee and take 30 napkins.”
Hahaha…actually, Italians do that too sometimes…the older ones, especially from southern Italy (Naples, Sicly, etc.). My grandmother used to carry a styrofoam box sometimes to buffets. It embarrassed everyone in my family, especially my sister and me.
Also, I saw my Korean friends’ mom do that before when we were growing up. Except they would stock up on ketchup more than napkins. Of course, this was back in the 70’s and 80’s.
However, I find that Koreans don’t do that anymore. Maybe Koreans have reached a point to where they will look at someone mooching napkins from a Mickey D’s with disdain.
However, you are right. Chinese in both mainland and in Hong Kong…boy if it’s free, you might as well kiss it goodbye.
Forget the napkins it’s the free onions and Ketchup at Costco that makes them go insane.
# 46,
Okay. That was funny…
first china takes north korea. they then have access to the sea as well as the resources therein (oil, fish, gas hydrates). then they start marrying into the population (as there are already 120:100 male to female population in china) and begin using the dprk labor force as the prc will be the most rapidly aged population at that time.
if they haven’t spent all of their war chest on keeping things stable domestically and taking over north korea, then they either move into the hinterlands or south, into the rok. this will probably be the time when japan gets involved.
either that, or the communist leadership tries to quell domestic instability by uniting the populace against japan. chinese nationalism will surely unite in order to put an end to the century of humilation no matter what may be going on domestically.
bumfromkorea #45, if that’s the case then I guess you and I have different understandings of the concept of nationalism and patriotism. To me, nationalism is the foundation of a unique ethnicity, usually based on cultural and historical legacy. If you take nationalism blindly and to the extreme, then that we’d call ultranationalism.
Patriotism, to me, is a form of loyalty to a certain collective group, such as a nation or a state. Patriotism and nationalism are not the same concept on different degrees of extremism.
@cydevil
Haha, we had a similar discussion in my old poli sci course when someone challenged the definitions given in the text (which was very similar to yours) by calling it obsolete. My definitions are from what I took away from that lengthy discussion.
SomeguyinKorea #34,
I won’t say I know about every single cases of violent demonstrations in Korea, but I’d say I have much knowledge and experience with them as I was particularly interested in the events. As I see it, most of these violent demonstrators were really desperate people who had their livelihoods on the line. Anti-FTA rioters are usually farmers and other affected groups who are not competitive enough stay in business if FTA comes into effect. In case of farmers, the government tried various subsidiaries and financial assistance to prevent these farmers from taking another job or going bankrupt, but the farmers only ended up with more and more debt. Personally, I used to loathe these people in every aspects, but I have changed much after having a long conversation about anti-FTA protests with someone who used to be a farmer. These people are really desperate. I don’t condone their violence, but I understand why they’re being so violent and desperate.
As for political extremsits, I meant extremist political groups like Hanchongryun. These communists or whatever may use nationalistic rhetoric to appeal to the public, but these people in the end are pro-NK extremists and such.
As for the anti-Japanese protests in China, they were nation-wide nationalistic protests, not protests of a few political extremists. Much like how anti-US protests on the US army tank incident can’t really be considered political extremism.
bumfromkorea #52,
Honestly I had a different understanding of the word in the past. I used to interpret nationalism as somewhat of a blind loyalty to the state. After having read about Korean nationalism in detail however, I came to have a very understanding of it. If you’re interested in Korean nationalism, this is a book I strongly recommend:
Ethnic Nationalism in Korea by Gi-Wook Shin, Stanford University Press
^correction. very understanding -> very different understanding