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The Olympic Rock Throwing Competition Winner: China


photo: Yonhap News Agency

The Olympic torch has come and gone through South Korea but not without surprises. The trip through Japan was marked with some outcry from groups that are critical of China’s policies in Tibet but Seoul was an entirely different matter since the most criticism against China’s human rights violations stems from its treatment of North Korean defectors that are caught in China and repatriated to North Korea despite the likelihood of prison if not execution, upon return to North Korea.

Seoul deployed close to 8,000 police to protect the torch relay through South Korea but it seems that China had mobilized up to 6,800 Chinese (estimated by police) who “shouted pro-Beijing slogans, with many of them running alongside the torch bearers”Yonhap. Clashes between those Koreans protesting the human rights record of China and the Chinese supporters were marked by thrown rocks and water bottles from the Chinese. NY Times. Other than one journalist struck in the head by a rock, no other injuries occurred.

One North Korean defector (Son Jong Hoon) who had tried to save his brother from execution in North Korea attempted to set himself on fire, in protest but was stopped by police.

Some Chinese did not understand why Korean activist groups were protesting during the relay:

The Olympics are not a political issue, I can’t understand why the Korean activist groups are protesting human rights or other diplomatic issues.
Sun Cheng, 22, a Chinese Korean language student in Seoul.

IMHO, Sun Cheng should go back to China since he does not seem to understand why others would be so concerned with human rights — and take about 6,000 of his fellows back with him where they will not be bothered with such extravagant concerns such as human rights or, for that much, legal due process.

UPDATE
Choe Sang-hun has filed a report with the NY Times and apparently groups of protesters were set upon by Chinese in Seoul:

When lone protesters demanded that China stop repatriating North Korean refugees, they were quickly surrounded by jeering Chinese. Near the park, Chinese students surrounded and beat a small group of protesters, news reports said.

About the author: Psst, want to buy some used marble cheap?

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com roboseyo

    I was by city hall today, and boy, the chinese were there in force, loud and proud. I just wrote about Korea boosters on my site, but Korea’s met their match! I wouldn’t have dared show any flag other than Chinese within a kilometer of City Hall. Surreal.

    And until I’m a safe distance from the chanting robots ready to hit me with thunder sticks and water bottles, my position shall be:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=04QoA44c23A
    (courtesy of Monty Python)

    quote of the day on a sign, held by a bespectacled, very shy looking male student:

    “Respect the olympic spirit
    all men — are brothers
    Interfere with China’s internal affairs,
    annihilate — in the far distance”

    kind of a disconnect between the first and last pair of lines.

  • aaronm

    IMHO, Sun Cheng should go back to China since he does not seem to understand why others would be so concerned with human rights — and take about 6,000 of his fellows back with him where they will not be bothered with such extravagant concerns such as human rights or, for that much, legal due process…

    Totally agree, and even more so given that on the day before ANZAC day in Australia, when we commemorate those who served and died to protect our democratic way of life, that bus loads of CCP agents, err students, were doing their utmost to stifle freedom of speech. Some even assaulted elderly people with children in tow. In short, I’d say to the thugs, err Chicom students,come, study, give us your money, but understand that rather than towing your savage, atavistic party line, we have the right to say (pretty much) the fuck what we like.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “The Olympics are not a political issue…”

    Dude, then why were there so many people waving the Chinese flag?

  • aaronm

    Yeah, the calls of “one China” could be mistaken for something more sinister, perhaps by the Taiwanese. It’s the kind of thing that also used to (and probably does) send shivers running down the spines of SE Asian leaders.

  • http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com Brian

    Um . . . what? Doesn’t South Korea have the same policy of repatriation? Wasn’t too long ago that those 22 refugees were found off Incheon and returned to be immediately executed, and I’m sure Joshua and others who follow those stories can provide lots of other examples. Plenty of reasons to criticze China and its human rights record, but I’m not sure South Koreans have a leg to stand on with this one.

  • Sonagi

    Depends on which South Koreans. I don’t think the North Korean defectors and their supporters who participated in the demonstrations were very happy when those refugees were sent back.

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com roboseyo

    do they realize that this kind of bullying and intimidation makes china look just as bad as having the streets lined with tibet protesters? yet the Propaganda Olympics roll on, because everybody wants their cheap-labour shirts, shoes and toys. I just blogged about Korea boosters, and I wasn’t here in 2002 to see Korean nationalism at its most rabid, but if it was anything like this, well that’s just a little frightening.

  • http://www.stafford.net.nz/bimbo.html stafford

    I saw a couple of “One China” type scuffles outside of Doksugung, and elsewhere and I assumed that “One China” was indeed a reference to Taiwan. Photos from around City Hall this afternoon here: http://tinyurl.com/5fse3f

  • http://www.stafford.net.nz/bimbo.html stafford

    Then there were these two holding up this lovely sign – http://tinyurl.com/3nwzoc

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  • http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com Brian

    It’s scary to read about the anti-US garbage that took place after the World Cup. A little Kimcheerleading (that’s Roboseyo’s phrase), a little violence, a little good old fashion blame-game.

  • Wayjan

    I found it amusing that some North Koreans really know how to take advantage of the Olympic Torch Run to condemn China for its own problem. Actually if that’s still a problem, China should just repatriate all citizens of North Korea back, without any question be asked. Remember China doesn’t own North Koreans a living. If everybody is so smart, why not request U.S. to rescue all North Koreans.

  • Maestro74

    I was also at city hall and saw the same sign. I also saw signs that read “Tibet was is and always will be a part CHINA” and “Join Olympic, feel a real China, Beijing Welcomes You Dalai Liar! Olympics of The World Tibet of China” There was a foreign monk outside of Doksugung that got pelted. He was surrounded by Chinese until the police moved in and formed a corridor to move him out. Any protestor I saw today was quickly surrounded and shouted down by chants of “One World One China!”. My Korean friend asked “what does that mean, does that mean us too?”

  • http://www.chiamattt.com chiamattt

    I must say that the Police did a great job. They were polite and very good about letting me walk around and take pictures. You can see them here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/smokehard/sets/72157604753620700/detail/

  • http://none SteelHorse

    Hey, maybe now the Chinese students will pick up some of the anti-foreigner sentiment and us poor hard-working English teachers will catch some slack. Soon we’ll be seeing tv shows with Chinese students groping Korean women in foreigners-only bars and room salons (where exactly are those room salons, anyway?)!!! Seriously, I wonder what the reaction is going to be once the news of a group of Chinese beating up Koreans in the Olympic park settles in. What would the reaction be if it were groups of English teachers running amok like this?

  • Sonagi

    Koreans quit feeling warm and fuzzy about the Chinese after Goguryeo became a bilateral issue. The Chosun Ilbo front page features a number of articles on the demonstrations and a quick glance at the message boards shows that the Chinese flag-wavers haven’t exactly won the hearts and minds of the Korean people. There is one story focusing on the presence of a handful of American and Canadian demonstrators wearing pro-Tibet t-shirts. I expected commenters to be critical of the North Americans, but instead, they were complaining about 중국놈들 and 중국깡패넘들.

    The East is red at Xinhua; its coverage of the torch run in Seoul is filled with photos of smiling patriotic Chinese in a sea of red flags:

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/27/content_8061041.htm

    Scroll down to the middle for a carefully selected shot of a tall, blond laowai possessed by the spirit of “New Beijing, Great Olympics.” The article barely mentions the existence of “a dozen protestors at Olympic Park,” outnumbered by Red Guards mobilized to protect the torch relay.

  • Mondoo

    Leave it to the chinese to actually make the koreans look civilized in comparison.

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    PRC people have done something ridiculously insulting in a place and land that isn’t even theirs.

    They should be deported asap.

    Most of them are students or workers who are at the same time business spies, military spies.

    US PRC scholars are also spies. Some of them are. They look like the average starving, busy student, but they get around
    homing juicy bits here and there back to PRChina.

    This is clearly not acceptable, but the US plays along with it, and bust an occasional big fish here and there,

    but, well after military secrets have gone from US to China.

    This is clearly not something you do in someone else’s country, in visiting status.

    Face it, Chinese people.

    You guys are loud, inconsiderate, care ONLY about money, steal and copy without remorse, and are thoughtless yes-men to the Communist Party of China. That, and you still worship Mao, even though he probably hurt at least several generations up in your own family at some point in time with starvation, war, and political cleansing.

    I don’t like you. Please don’t like me.

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    A lot of things blamed on Bush are actually the fault of the Chinese. What is this? Wjk speaking racist, nationalist, nonsense?

    No.

    Of course not.

    Look around. Chinese development and increased living of standards have come with environmental destruction that is felt in real time in East Asia.

    Chinese development and increased living standards have also come with a considerable increase in petrol demand, with roughly the same supply of petrol, previous to the Chinese surge.

    This means, yes, your $4 gasoline in the USA, is due largely to supply and demand, and the Chinese are using what you used to use, or want to use now.

    So, global warming, and oil prices. Chinese. Got it?

    Next, we move on to war.

    Bush has supposedly destroyed the world with his Iraq War.

    Did he?

    In the Iraq War, I note that roads, hospitals, factories, infrastructure are being built for the benefit of Iraq’s future, although the Iraqis are too busy to bomb it all up. What country in the history of mankind has done so much civilization building projects in war time, as Bush has done in Iraq?

    Let’s see. Sudan and the other African nation at war at the moment. Can’t name it. The Chinese have been supplying weapons to the ruling govts to secure natural resource digging rights. Let’s see. What have the Chinese built for the African people? Nothing. Just total destruction, with the intent to legally take away natural resources.

    Bush abuses human rights?

    China. Burma. Tibet.

    And my favorite,

    North Korea.

    Chinese commies have blood on their hands. I hope someday, the Chinese people will have the balls to drag them out to the streets and step on their necks.

  • user-81

    “IMHO, Sun Cheng should go back to China since he does not seem to understand why others would be so concerned with human rights — and take about 6,000 of his fellows back with him where they will not be bothered with such extravagant concerns such as human rights or, for that much, legal due process.”

    Do you think they will learn this stuff back in China? At least in South Korea they might eventually encounter news about their country that hasn’t been filtered by Cisco.

  • Wilson

    Can anyone confirm the claim made by Choe Sang-hun?

  • baduk

    Compared to Koreans and the Japanese, the Chinese are beggars making $100 per month.

    This frustration and inferiority complex will explode one day in the form of war, as happened in Germany during WWII.

    History will repeat itself. The war will be fought aginst Japan.

    Where Koreans are going to align themselves are the most intriguing question of our time.

  • user-81

    #12: “You guys are loud, inconsiderate, care ONLY about money, steal and copy without remorse, and are thoughtless yes-men to the Communist Party of China.”

    Change ‘Communist Party of China’ to ‘your country’ and this is the same thing some people say about Korea. wjk, you really should watch it with the Pawi-esque broad strokes.

    #10: “Hey, maybe now the Chinese students will pick up some of the anti-foreigner sentiment and us poor hard-working English teachers will catch some slack.”

    “What would the reaction be if it were groups of English teachers running amok like this?”

    The world really does revolve around beleaguered English teachers, doesn’t it?

  • JohnT

    If their is any ‘loud and pround’ group, it would be the Koreans. At least that’s my experience travelling to Europe.

    I don’t know which group was louder and ruder, the Chinese or Koreans. Usually, it’s the Koreans.

    ‘English teachers’ should be changed to white and/or black guys. The white or black girls get put on TV.

  • JohnT

    ‘loud and proud’ that is…

  • seoulmilk

    i completely agree with #16. wjk, you can believe what you want, but generalizing a group of people like that is uncalled for.

    is there any expats who would agree with me that johnT has some serious issues?

  • cydevil

    Pictures of violence perpetrated by these Chinese mobs are widely circulated on the internet, enraging a lot of Koreans. While I don’t think this will generate as much anti-Chinese sentiments as the Northeast Project, but this will definitely generate much more hatred than the Eulyongta incident. So much for Journey of “Harmony”, when in fact this torch is spreading hatred and conflict everywhere (well, almost).

  • Sonagi

    is there any expats who would agree with me that johnT has some serious issues?

    Yes.

  • bumfromkorea

    This torch run is turning out to be the PR event from hell. This is like the first time I’ve ever felt sympathy for the Coca-Cola corporation… Is there any way they can pull out their contribution?

    The pro-China protesters beating up other protesters is really messed up. And it’s not exactly going to help the argument “Olympics is not about politics.”

    Ditto what Seoulmilk said.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    #11,

    In my experience, Chinese students are incredibly polite and hardworking. They’ve been mostly a positive influence on my Korean students. There is a marked difference in classes that have one or two Chinese students and those that don’t. It’s as if the students who would normally goof off in class are too embarrassed to do so…or maybe they notice that I cut my Chinese students some slack because they work hard and show me respect.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    #23,

    I can already see the Pepsi ads. ;)

  • jennie

    I have read news reports of violence and intimidation by Chinese students in Australia, Japan, and S. Korea, but until I saw the images at http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=133166
    I thought maybe they were exaggerated. Now I know they were not sufficiently descriptive.

    I had a college professor who was a Chinese exchange student during Tiannamen. Because of his pro-democracy views he received asylum in US. He says the later group of Chinese students were more carefully screened. I also learned that the majority of Chinese students who get the opportunity abroad are well-connected. They are the children of government officials or very wealthy business people (this is often the same people) so they have a vested interest in status quo in China. It might also explain why they think they can get away with bullying people and beating them up. Maybe at home their position in society let’s them do these type of things.

    Maybe it is years of having to keep silent and obedient to their government that given the chance to protest, they go crazy like this? The only possible good thing that might come from this is that more people can understand the suffering of Tibetans at hands of Chinese government. If young privilged students can go crazy against peaceful protestors, imagine the level of violent they display to those who seek autonomy from their One China? Who knows, after a taste of “freedom of speech” they might find political silence in China no longer tolerable, but then if you are the beneficiary of an oppressive system you might not want it changed.

  • Sonagi

    The Chicago Tribune has a story about how international and domestic Olympic sponsors are planning to cash in on surging Chinese nationalism by using ads with patriotic themes. Expect Chinese and international companies to play up their sponsorship inside China and keep a low profile in countries where there is vocal opposition to China’s hosting the Games.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-olympics-china-sponsorshapr27,0,3462407.story

  • Alejandro Marivosa

    Funny, ’cause any of those Chinese on his/her own would be as docile as can be. I don’t think the Koreans will get too angry about this, because they only hate people they think are economically better off.

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  • http://www.rokdrop.com GI Korea

    In response to #5, the South Korean government repatriates NK refugees that asked to be returned. In regards to the 22 NK refugees recently returned the NIS failed to question the refugees individually and only as a group.

    Richardson over at DPRK Studies explains why refugees should be questioned individually and not as a group:

    http://www.dprkstudies.org/2008/02/18/more-blood-on-roh-moo-hyuns-hands/

    Just because the Roh era government was incompetent and callous in handling NK refugees doesn’t mean the human rights groups shouldn’t protest. LMB has made it a point to promote NK human rights and hopefully he follows through on this promise.

  • JanJan

    To react against the torch snatching from some die-hard extremists of all kinds ie. free North Koreans, free Tibet, free speech, freedom, etc, the Chinese are doing admirably trying to protect the Olympic Torch Run. In any game, if your opponents want to play dirty and rough, the other team can’t be soft and obligizing.

    I thought Tibet is already free, free from the scourges of slavery and serfdom that was practised by Dalai Lama and his cohorts. It’s only that this dark hand that refuse to let go Tibet free for their own selfish reason.

  • http://www.park-hyun.com Park Hyun

    #34:

    We know you’re employed by the Chinese government to go onto foreign blogs and write those kind of things. You don’t fool anyone.

    You’re a tool of an oppressive government. Don’t be surprised when people call you out on it.

  • swlee

    I would not have wanted to have been a foreigner walking around in a hanbok yesterday for fear of being mistaken as a monk and attacked by these blackbean noodle delivery guys.

  • JanJan

    #34 : Park Hyun

    That’s unnecessary accusation. I own no allegiance to China. I’m just a fair minded person who believe that the whole Olympic Torch Run had been hijacked by some Western countries for some selfish reasons. Unfortunately some opportunists like Free Tibet and Free North Koreans have no shame trying to obstruct the Olympic Torch Run. FYI, if both North and South Koreans have problem resolving the refugees problem then they should sit down and negotiate. But instead the Koreans are equally obstinate and hostile to each problem. Kind of funny that they blame it on China.

  • Saxiif

    Yes it is very strange to blame Chinese people beating people up on Chinese people. Bizarre in fact.

  • R. Elgin

    Per #34, I think it is quite pathetic and disgusting to claim that anyone that has concerns with the human rights of defecting North Koreans are simply “die-hard extremists”. I suppose this means the world is full of just such “extremists” since most would chose self-preservation over sure death and torture.

    One can only imagine what the average Chinese citizen gets when no one is looking.

  • bumfromkorea

    I don’t think beating people up in the streets (including peaceful demonstrators, journalists, and cops) can quite match up to the word ‘admirable’.

    Yes, Tibetians are free… to have their human rights violated by Chinese soldiers. Granted, theocracy sucks no matter how nice the current incarnation of Dalai Lama is (and I’m sure he’s an awesome guy), but Tibet as it is… can’t exactly be described as anything positive.

  • http://www.park-hyun.com Park Hyun

    #37

    Oh, but JanJan, it IS necessary. You’re trumpeting your party line. Look, maybe you’re French and you live in France, or maybe you’re using a proxy site, but you’re still a tool of the Chinese government.

    Take a look at some pics from the rally. Did you see the one of the woman being punched and kicked by “I Heart China” rioters?

    I know your game, because I’ve read 1984. Everyone else here has, too.

  • mateomiguel

    Where is the Korean outrage? Is there enough of it? Are there going to be big protests? Candle light vigils? Loudly crying ajummas? I can hardly wait to find out!

  • http://timurileng.blogspot.com Zhang Fei

    BFK: This torch run is turning out to be the PR event from hell.

    Not really. The point of this exercise was to show Chinese that the present government has made China great again – that it can get China’s tributary states around the world to prostrate themselves before China. Police forces around the world are acting as China’s auxiliary troops in restraining foreign demonstrators, much as China has set one barbarian against another for thousands of years.

  • Rambutan

    At some point very very soon, China’s leaders are going to begin to regret having fought so hard for so long to host the Games.

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com Roboseyo

    A propos? Funny as hell, given the situation.

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/04/25/disincentives/

  • JanJan

    Park Hyun & Elgin,

    I am no apologist for any violence (especially when accusation of beating doesn’t come with any evidence) but let us be cleared that the game doesn’t start well in the West. The Chinese being the host, are equally enthusiatic to protect what is rightfully their chance to stage the game without any political interference.

    Now back to North Koreans refugees issue. Why is China single-handedly be blamed for someone’s else problem. Ain’t there thousands of refugees who are also saved by the Chinese despite violation of transpassing thru Chinese Land. You have to respect China’s neutral position that both North and South Korea are their closer neighbours. By nature of hostility (when South Korea is still having thousands of U.S soldiers in its soil), North Korea is more friendly to China. But China doesn’t react any hostility towards South Korea in her dealing. Is that fair enough?

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    Too bad the cops were there. I’d LOVE to have curbstomped those loser white folks trying to split China.

    It was good to see the Chinese out in force! Too bad there won’t be a massive protest against the ignoramuses on this site who know JACKSHIT about China.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    JanJan, you’re funny! Between 11:49 and 1:04, did you look into your propaganda handbook to find the approved statement about Nork refugees, or did you call back to your boss in Beijing for advice? Did you even find this blog by yourself, or did your ubercomrade send you a list of blogs to propagandize? I’m honestly curious about how well-organized your operation is.

    Please feel free to give us your opinions on appropriate threads for any of these topics: Is confuciansim good for NE Asia? Is pawi a troll or not? Is Djamilya hot or not? Will LMB’s government improve Korea’s economy?

    But really, just give up on saying anything about China. You are rice-paper thin, and your credibility is zero.

  • JanJan

    Rambutan,

    The Chinese probably regret that they put too much faith on the West’s jargon for human rights and fairness when in reality, the West practises double standard in their words and deeds.

  • bumfromkorea

    “especially when accusation of beating doesn’t come with any evidence”

    Have you been reading the news, watching the footages, and looking at the pictures? I mean, sources other than Xinhua. Protecting the right to hold Olympics isn’t convincing anyone when
    1. Protests won’t lead to the cancellation of the game
    2. “protecting” involves beating people who disagrees with you without any physical provocation… or journalists and cops (who are incidentally there to protect the torch run)
    3. Olympics has a generous history of BEING about politics

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    JanJan, does that mouthful of nonsense mean something logical in the original Chinese propaganda handbook you are using? Because your English translation is functionally useless. Sorry.

  • JanJan

    Linkd,

    You sound very desperate with your awkful response. Didn’t I mention earlier that I am not from China and I own no allegiance to China. Give everybody a break for your stereotype reply that anyone who is not in sync with your idea are actually propaganda from China. You are ludicrous but naive in your thinking.

  • Saxiif

    JanJan: right now there’s a large number of Korean refugees sneaking through China and getting involved in various illegalities. But if China instead deported them to the country of their choice, then you’d have all of the refugees who made it across the border lining up peacefully at the nearest police station.

    Basically China has no reason to ship North Korean refugees back into North Korea when there’s other countries (for example the US) willing to take them except in order to support an murderous regime.

    Simply shameful.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    janjan, just ignore the ignoramuses on this site. They don’t know anything about China. They get all their propaganda from the Western press.

    This board is for loser English teachers and other assorted lost causes. Don’t forget: most English teachers are unemployable and went to shyte universities. By definition, they are not the brightest lots. After all, if they were smart enough to get a real job, they’d get one!

    They don’t know crap about China. They just e like to run their mouths and parrot the party line.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    Not from China? You? Of course not! You’re a Frenchman, like me. Jesus, dude, you’re as Chinese as boiled bat. And I have no opinions about Tibet, or about the Olympics. I’m not blinded by any desperate belief on these topics. I can see just fine, thanks, and you are a paper-thin propaganda agent operated by Chinese propaganda machine.

  • R. Elgin

    . . . Why is China single-handedly be blamed for someone’s else problem(?)Ain’t there thousands of refugees who are also saved by the Chinese despite violation of (trespassing) thru (sic) Chinese Land

    Well, it is China that forcibly returns North Koreans to face torture, death or incarceration, if the defector is lucky — all because they wanted out of North Korea. The Chinese Government is not in the business of saving North Koreans either, rather North Korea is a client state of China and has been for years, as can be documented through routine news releases.

    I do hope you realize the error of your posts because they are many?

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    Fuck, you sprouted another head!

  • R. Elgin

    A Frenchman like me . . . indeed “Linkd”, his IP address says Malaysia, unless that is through a proxy too.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    …which I think proves he was given this blog’s address by a higher-up.

  • JanJan

    Poor me. I have been discovered and interrogated like a guilty agent of China. Never mind that I’ve admitted who am I in the first place. Did I lie, for Christ sake.

    Really do we see a systematic pattern of outright criticisms against those who do not see or agree with your arguments.

    Linkd, if your choice of your word is appropriate, you are damned for your uncivilised upbringing.

  • MigukNamja

    JanJan and MoralMidgetElgin are obviously trolls, but at least JanJan takes the time to read.

    JJ and MME,

    Both of you realize you are doing more to hurt the cause of pro-Chinese sentiment rather than properly defend China by living up to the ugly stereotypes as shown by pro-Chinese torch relay thugs, yes ?

    Specifically, thuggery (whether physical or verbal) will only isolate China from the rest of the world. You know it’s bad, for instance, when the long-time #1 sponsor of the Olympics, Coca-Cola, a company also not known for activism, human rights, or any of those “touchy-feely” things is seriously considering pulling its sponsorship.

    I believe the proverbial “Ugly American” has been supplanted by the proverbial “Ugly Chinese”.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    Like I said: all lost causes. The lot of them. On this site, pro-China equals facist/brainwashed/robot/etc. It’s funny how the cite Orwell so frequently without examining their own beliefs.

    God forbide you actually come to the conclusion that,—gee whiz–the CCP ain’t so bad. Hell, the CCPs brought more people out of poverty than ANY organization ever. It’s brought civilization and education to backwaters like Tibet and Xinjiang (but don’t worry, no one here cares about the Uighurs, coz their dirty muslims, right, Elgy and co?).

    Hmm… I wonder how many people here were actually at the peaceful protest yesterday? My guess, probably zero.

    LONG LIVE THE CCP!
    LONG LIVE THE PRC!
    ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO WANSUI!
    ZHONGUO GONGCHANDANG WANSUI!
    ZHUNGUO JIAYOU!!

  • MigukNamja

    Re# 50:

    JanJan,

    The Chinese probably regret that they put too much faith on the West’s jargon for human rights and fairness when in reality, the West practises double standard in their words and deeds.

    Since when did either North Korea or South Korea become part of the West ?

    No, I rather suspect that’s not what you’re saying. Rather, I suspect you were pointed here by some other pro-Chinese person and are merely copy/pasting from the same material to be used on every website which criticizes China and/or its government.

  • Saxiif

    We all had doubts about the CCP before, but due to your superhuman ability to write out a national anthem in all caps we have all been swayed by your enlightened rhetoric.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    deleted (off-topic)

  • bumfromkorea

    So… is it cool if the moderators leave JanJan & MME’s comments up there even if they’re making absolutely no sense? It’s pretty funny, and they’re providing an excellent distraction/entertainment for me during the finals week.

    After #63, I’m willing to believe that MME is like shelleytherepublican.com

  • JanJan

    Frankly I accepted your reasoning that thuggery or violence of any kinds is not acceptable when we’re just talking about an Olympic game. However, I do feel the anguish of the Chinese when they saw violence in the name of peaceful protests, during the Torch runs in London and Paris. Neither do I sympathize with the Tibetans in exile or some Westerners, that by obstructing the Torch run, they are taking a high moral ground on human rights. That’s outlandish silly. Any issue on Tibet should lawfully be relegated to other forum for negotiation and settlement.

  • JanJan

    MigukNamja,

    Please read carefully on my response to Rambutan before you comment unnecessary out of stupidity.

  • MigukNamja

    Re: #63

    Hmm… I wonder how many people here were actually at the peaceful protest yesterday? My guess, probably zero.

    For once, you are correct ! None of us were at the peaceful protest yesterday.
    You must be referring to another protest not related to the torch relay.

    Also, it’s scary how much like another recent NE Asian aggressor this sounds like:

    “It’s brought civilization and education to backwaters like Tibet and Xinjiang”

    Replace Tibet and Xinjiang with Korea and Manchuria and you have a different NE Asian aggressor from the 1st half of the 20th century. Specifically, I’m pretty sure Tibet was quite content with being an “uneducated backwater” (that’s tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, if you can catch that) rather than an “educated” region under the jackboots of CCP authority.

  • R. Elgin

    “moralmidgetelgin” is none other than “agitprop”, back again for more trolling, just for the record.

    Actually, if I leave at least “one” of this hopeless trolls postings up, it serves as an acute reminder of just how low and irrational people can get, whether out of boredom or ignorance.

  • mateomiguel

    hey, you pro-Chinese argumentarians. I don’t dislike China because I’ve been brainwashed. I dislike China because of two pictures:

    and

    That’s all it takes. A government that executes female prisoners with a bullet to the back of the head and deploys armored columns against its own citizens is beyond redemption, compromise, or reason to me. Tibet just adds fuel to the fire that was already started long ago, by the actions of your government.

  • mateomiguel
  • JanJan

    Personally I’ll think it’s not right to target any person such as MME or even outsider like my goodself. Everybody has their own culture, principle and thinking which may be different. It’s true that China with his hugh population and vast land, the level of development varies from one region to another. The coastal cities like Shanghai and Shenzhen is comparable to any big cities in the developed countries but the inner west is very much well undeveloped. Except for the lack of political freedom, my personal opinion (I believe it’s agreeable by majority of Chinese) is that the Chinese in general are satisfied with the current government. They are definitely not in the mood to hear some Westerners lambasting them on what happened during Mao’s era. Almost all of them are keen to welcome foreigners for a deeper study of China today. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for.

  • slim

    I agree with MME: “pro-China equals facist/brainwashed/robot/etc.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    JanJan, if you’re interested in Korea, you’re welcome to stick around and comment here. But speak for yourself. Don’t speak for ‘the majority of Chinese’, and don’t paste in the words of whoever told you to show up here and defend the torch run.

    That’s about it. Maybe we’ll see you around. Enjoy the Olympics.

  • http://www.park-hyun.com Park Hyun

    Wow, JanJan, now you’re American. See, you do know how to use a proxy server.

    I’m going to address you now as an employee of the Chinese government:

    Stop lying to me. Lying to your population has worked pretty well, because you can use ethnic nationalism and control of the press, but it doesn’t work with non-Chinese. For some reason we don’t want to bask in the greatness of your glory.

    We do, however, want to hold protests in our home cities without thugs beating us down and then cowering behind the protection of their rich and powerful state.

    Americans are used to people around the world protesting us for much, much worse reasons that Tibet and North Korea. We don’t make things worse by cracking skulls abroad.

    If you care about the Chinese people, you’ll start apologizing for their actions, because Koreans won’t care, and I know what it looks like when they start mobilizing against foreigners.

    Bring on the fear, JanJan.

  • JanJan

    Slim wrote, “I agree with MME: “pro-China equals facist/brainwashed/robot/etc”.

    Far too drastic I think. Any change to tone it down a bit.

  • R. Elgin

    “JanJan”, as you put it, “a deeper study” of a society might be enjoyable within context to a culture that is predicated upon democratic principles, however it is unreasonable to expect a sympathetic response, from reasonable people, when a government — such as the Chinese Government — feels free to commit acts of deliberate evil in today’s world.

    No one here has ever mentioned Mao but do you really want to talk about that terrible history? You know, I read that there is a reason why all those cemeteries, filled with fatalities from the Cultural Revolution, have recently been systematically paved over or uprooted with something shinning and new. Chinese history — as practiced in China today — becomes a conduit of policy rather than insight; what is worrisome is forgotten, what is useful is invented or retold so that, in the latest official edition, the wicked step-mother is not so wicked, rather misunderstood. It is precisely this gross lack of introspection and accountability in China today that worries many because far too often is vice called “virtue”, especially if it is repeated again and again in a systematic manner. How many displays of Chinese youth coming to someone else’s country and running amok does everyone need to see before we form an opinion on what is it that motivates Chinese society today and just how they are shaped by their elders?

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Everybody has their own culture, principle and thinking which may be different.

    True enough. Koreans, for instance, have their own principles and thinking. One principle is an extreme disapproval of organized bands of violent young foreigners rampaging through the heart of their capital city attacking Korean citizens, other foreigners and the Korean National Police.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    That’s the Malaysian flag, Park Hyun.

  • slim

    You have to worry that, at the actual Olympics in August, these Red Guards are going to rough up fans of other country’s teams or reporters or refugees if it appears, or they are told by the Chinese media, that a call has gone against the PRC team. Chinese mobs did attack Japanese diplomats during Asian Cup soccer in 2004.

  • http://www.park-hyun.com Park Hyun

    Linkd:

    Hahahaha! My bad. Geez, they pirate everything in Malaysia, don’t they?

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    It was peaceful and lively. I was there the entire time. except for one scuffle and a few incidents, people were friendly, polite, and boisterous. The media presented the most biased view of the events ever. They chose to focus on a few incidents, not the reality. And the morally bankrupt hipocrites on this site are choosing to fan the flames of bias and hatred. Your double standards are disgust me.

    Actually, the coverage of the torch relay and other recent events are completly representative of media coverage of China anyways: choosing to focus on a few incidents and ignoring the many many benefits and good things. I was THERE. I know how wrong it was. You all dis China, but you don’t have any clue about what China is like. You all claim to know what’s best for China, but you fail to acknoledge China’s unique position. You enjoy bashing China for no other reason than it’s cool and fashionble these days. You’re all band wagon activists with not good reason to protest, because you have NO idea what the situation on the ground is like.

    The CCP is a BENEVOLENT organization. Voting is for wimps. It’s overrated and doesn’t mean anything. So what if people can’t vote? It’s a symbolic right, not something that makes a difference. CCP has lifted several hundred million people out of poverty. It builds infrastucture and cracks down on currption. CCP has led China onto the global stage. So what if there’s isn’t “democracy?” CCP is a democracy to the extent that it has the people’s consent (and, village-level elections are 100% free and fair, even more so than in the U.S.). People are happy with it, contrary to what you hippie westerners might think. In fact, given the events in Russia, they have every right to want to put the breaks on political reform. Russia went democratic and capitalist at the same time. Now Russia’s reverting to authoritarianism and it’s economy has fallen into the hands of oligarchs. China’s position is WAY better than Russia.

    Human rights issues are overblown. You get your panties all up in knot over a few second hand reports. China’s HR situation is improving. It’s not worth your time protesting China. Go protest Saudi Arabia. or the U.S. colonization of Iraq. Those are countries with real human rights problems.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    deleted (offensive content)

  • Maddlew

    Just keep talking and in the meantime continue that wonderful marketing. Beijing welcomes the world? We’re starting to get a load of your act.
    I believe very little of what my government tells me and I let them know. I’m not very practiced at bleating. I’m not very convinced that your country is going to be as welcoming as purported. You may think I’m alone but I’m not.
    You say the torch run was peaceful with a few minor exceptions. I’d say those exceptions create the lasting impression and I don’t think people want to go someplace to be muzzled. Any dissenting voice is treated like a pinata. You have an interesting set of debating skills.
    Welcome? I’ll pass.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    I think your just looking for an excuse to bash china, maddlew. A few incidents? So what? A few incidents occur everytime a large group of people gather together. I say, big deal. How typical of Westerners to bash China at the slightest incident.

    That’s the problem I have with this site and the Western media in general. They tend to focus on a few isolated incidents and blow them out of proportion. Then they point their big old finger of morality and screams “I told you so!! See, those dirty Chinese are up to no good again!! But, we don’t mean to offend the people, just their rotten, no good government.” Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Chinese LIKE their government? Maybe the Chinese are happy with the way things are? Maybe the Chinese see the benefits of CCP rule and gradual political reform?

    Obviously not. The CCP is vastly popular. It allows economic growth and freedoms (though no one on this propaganda site would ever admit it). If you don’t believe me, go live there for a while and see what its really like. Talk to REAL Chinese people. See how they live. See how their lives are improving every day.

  • Maddlew

    You call them small incidents. I don’t. When you deny people their voice you may see it as small. I don’t.
    This time it wasn’t the government. I saw no Chinese government there.
    You’re saying go live among people like this? Talk about walking on eggshells. Hell, that would be living on eggshells in fear that I couldn’t spew the same doctrine as the others around me. Don’t worry about the police. The mob will simply go into an emotional rage.
    Once again, I’ll pass.

  • MoralMidgetElgin

    “You’re saying go live among people like this? Talk about walking on eggshells. Hell, that would be living on eggshells in fear that I couldn’t spew the same doctrine as the others around me. Don’t worry about the police. The mob will simply go into an emotional rage.
    Once again, I’ll pass.”

    I guess your not fit to live in human society. Humans are prone to mob mentalitiy. Happens all the time. Sports riots, anti-globalizagtion riots, anti-fur riots and so on. Get a group of people together for a common cause–anywhere in the world–and see what happens.

    Also, your characterization of the whole event is way off. It wasn’t violent. There were a few incidents, yes. The press made the event seem like it was pure chaos. It wasn’t. Most people were calm and friendly. They were polite and approachable. They were just students. They were their to support their country.
    They weren’t robots and facists spoiling for a fight.

    You can’t judge a society based on a handful of ideologues and a few small violent incidents. If you ready to write off the Chinese people based on some hooligans throwing plastic bottles, then your the fool.

  • JanJan

    @Park Hyun,

    Park Hyun wrote, “Geez, they pirate everything in Malaysia, don’t they?”

    Oh yeah, but then it’s still not as bad as South Korea (based on IP index 2008).

    Anyway I am not here to sow any bad intention as honestly I don’t have much knowledge about Korea (except probably some tear-jerker movies that are ‘hot’ amongst Malaysians). Apologize that I may have unintentionally cause some of you to react with such hostile retaliation such as “brainwash”, “propaganda”, etc.

    Finally I wish to stress (hopefully) that most of you don’t hold incessant grudges against the Chinese for that’ll be counter-productive. The world can’t afford to have billions of Chinese pitting against the West. We need all hands (and brains) to solve more pertinent problems like global-warming, population growth, starvation and so on.

    Terima Kasih.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    # 1,

    Rob, a little late here, but that video link you provided was funny.

    One of the “related” video links that I thought was, ahem, a little more interesting was this one:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=kkhVhUDqfXk&feature=related

  • user-81

    #90: I don’t have much knowledge about Korea (except probably some tear-jerker movies that are ‘hot’ amongst Malaysians).

    That sums it up: Life in Korea is one big tear-jerker. :)

    Who deleted #85?

  • Maddlew

    “Humans are prone to mob mentality. Happens all the time.” I get it, dude. You’re painting a very inviting picture of your world. “Mob Mentality”. Isn’t that a show on Broadway right now? From Mob Rule Productions? I think they’re the same ones who brought us that zany comic musical, “Food, Folks und der Fuehrer”.
    I think we’re familiar with your particular brand of nationalism. Every once in a while there are jack-boots on the stairs late at night and pounding on doors. Too bad about all that bothersome screaming later on. Do you ever go for the Sunday afternoon executions? Always good to bring a Weber, some short ribs and potato salad.
    You’re quite a salesman. It’s all so very appealing but I’m going to be busy… forever. I’m going to take a rain check on your HUMANE Society, also.

  • Sonagi

    MME is a troll best ignored. JanJan is not unless you define a troll as anybody who doesn’t think the way you do. Likewise, accusing JanJan of being a government propagandist is a cheap ad-hominem retort. I disagree with much of what JanJan writes, but JanJan would find many supporters among Southeast Asians of many ethnicities.

    FYI, JanJan and other newcomers, I and a few other commenters actually lived in China and speak the language.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    Ugh. Tuesday morning hangover after a nice Monday night pile-on. I wake up to find myself scolded by Sonagi. Never fun. Mrs. Linkd also says I was too hard on JanJan.

    Maafkan saya. No doubt your last couple comments were significantly humanizing after that ‘dark hand’ stuff.

    OTH: when I say ‘agent’, I don’t mean direct employment. Around the world, little groups of Chinese students are saying “Hey, China’s getting blasted on the Internet. We should do something to help!” And one of their number says “Hey, I’ve got a list of good responses to common comments that foreigners make, and here, I also have a list of popular blog sites. Let’s use these.” And everyone jumps in to help. But just a sec, where did that guy get that ‘handbook’, as I called it? That’s also a type of agency. Nonetheless, I accept that JanJan’s intentions were honest, and appreciate the sincerity in his latter posts.

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com Roboseyo

    I also spotted Jan Jan’s shift in tone over the last few posts, and appreciated the more moderate stance: I know I’ve had it before where I get emotional and defend a position more on emotion than reason; I’ve also had it where somebody with a different view states their point so strongly I overstate my own position in response.

    (I’ve seen this in class, too, where my Korean students, if I’m clumsy in how I present my points, lock elbows and go into “defend Korea” mode, even though the points I’m making might be ones they’d all agree with, if they were being made by a Korean rather than a Canadian. How I present my points is as important, maybe even more important, than what I’m saying.)

    Quite frankly, I was at City Hall on Sunday, and I felt intimidated by the ocean of red flags, and signs that read things like “Interfere with China’s internal affairs. . . annihilation, in the far distance” (picture up on my blog) and could see how other Koreans and/or protesters could feel the same, but of course that doesn’t automatically mean I want to see the collapse of China and everything it stands for.

    I think it’s a kind of a red herring to argue that most of the Chinese boosters were peaceful when the sheer number of them might well have cowed a lot of people out of expressing their true minds, in the same way that I’m only going to say nice things about the Yankees when surrounded by burly fans at Yankee stadium. I’m sure many were there just to cheer things on, but again, wherefore negative signs like “we will resolutely oppose any activity aimed at. . .” rather than leaving it positive, at “Go Beijing, Go Olympics!”
    (from here:) http://www.stafford.net.nz/bimbo.html

  • Zonath

    Voting is for wimps. It’s overrated and doesn’t mean anything

    I don’t think it’s voting as much per se as the other accoutrements of the modern liberal democracy that people are concerned about… Things like freedom of expression, freedom of religion, reproductive freedom, and so on and so forth. The fact that the CCP makes the trains run on time does not really excuse the general lack of freedoms the CCP affords its citizens.

  • stacked

    @95, mob mentality isn’t a valid excuse.

    @5, refugees sent back to N.K. during liberal rule doesn’t even come close to the human rights abuses in China. Dont fucking kid yourself silly monkey.

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    PRC’s Chinese Communist Party is a gathering of pigs, assholes, murderers, and moral degenerates.

    These men are fascists in the purest form.

    Ironically, but truely, both Mao and Stalin’s progeny have turned out to be not communists, but fascist dictators.

    The Chinese, the North Koreans are blind to this. The North Koreans now realize the truth, due to their hunger. The Chinese have not experienced any such, and still revere Mao Zedong, who is in many ways a worser human being that Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot combined.

    History will judge the Chinese people.

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    by the way, as a citizen of the PRChina, exactly what the hell would YOU do,

    If the government charged you with corruption, espionage, political crime, or some other capital crime on their books?

    Just die (exactly the way the state chooses), right?

    What a wonderful country.

    Here, in the free world, we can vote people out every 2,4,6 years, and hire a lawyer who can actually techinically make us a “dead man” walking out of court.

    None of the above is possible in China.

    If the govt said you’re a dick, you’re a dick. You’re dead.

  • Sonagi

    @#94:

    I don’t think Chinese internet vigilantes have noticed the Marmot’s Hole yet, but if we keep posting on the torch relay, they might.

  • http://www.jdlink.co.kr Linkd

    #100 – go to Google and type in ‘korean blogs’. No need to bother scrolling down.

  • R. Elgin

    “WJK”, you are mis-characterizing the legal system in China. Though what you mention can and has happened, the legal system is slowly evolving though judges are still unduly influenced by the Party, as per just one article available online. Please try to stick to debating ideas and not just calling people names; we do not need to feed trolls.

  • R. Elgin

    . . . and please consider #79 again, since it was buried by “moral-midget”s spew: “the CCP is a benevolent organization”. “Benevolent” organizations do not commit the acts of violence and repression that they have committed, in the name of a greater China (http://www.hrichina.org/public/)

  • mateomiguel

    I guess all the Chinese people we’re seeing support their government do it so strongly because the ones that didn’t were shot or imprisoned?

  • jennie

    Moral Midget – very appropriate name, probably the only appropriate thing about your posts. You symbolize the reason China’s Olympic PR campaign failing. Remember propaganda 101? First, never deny the obvious, it makes you look crazy, stupid, or like a puppet and people will laugh at you and dismiss everything you say as a joke or lies. There is clear video footage of Chinese students intimidating, threatening, and physically and verbally abusing those who oppose Chinese government’s policies. The evidence is irrefutable. Why do you think China’s ambassador had to accept South Korea’s claim that such incidents occur? If there was a crack to escape from that truth, he would have crawled through it. So, when you talk like are in 100% denial and make thousands of excuses and distractions, do not be surprise people call you a liar or a tool of China’s government. Second rule learned in propaganda school is to pretend to be reasonable to gain trust, then spread the propaganda. See how JanJan adjusted today? Yet, the points he is trying to sell is the same, only now it is in a better package. Finally, if necessary, a softly worded threat can be used. Threats like someone made in here and at other sites of one day China seizing Korea does not qualify as a soft threat. China’s ambassador to South Korea used the appropriate soft threat, “I will continue efforts not to damage the public sentiment of both nations. I think it requires joint efforts by the two governments”, suggesting to South Korea, if it does not want to damage relations (mainly business) with China, it will find a way to calm its people. Moral Midgit, an order for re-education camp awaits you back home.

    On the point of benevolent CCP. This is the argument kings and emperors made to hold on to power. It is a weak, irrational basis for legitimate governance. What happens when CCP behaves in ways that are not benevolent, as with Cultural Revolution, Big Leap, or Tiannamen? History shows it means hundreds of millions of innocent people die while the nation waits for CCP benevolence. Millions more, in Tibet and China are still waiting for CCP benevolence. However, if CCP is benevolent as you say and are beloved by the Chinese people, then why do they fear freedom and democracy? A benevolent and good government would not fear a free press, free speech, and free assembly. It would not fear having to compete with other political parties for seats in the government. It would not fear opening Tibet to the world so everyone can witness CCP’s benevolence towards Tibetans. It would permit Tibetans to freely speak so they can praise CCP benevolence.

  • jennie

    On the point of the Olympic torch and its symbolism. I think too much is made of it. The amount of money and man power to safeguard the torch is crazy compared to the real human life suffering in Tibet, Burma, Darfur, and North Korea. When I see governments patting themselves on the back for “successful relay” (meaning the torch stay lit). Why is there not the same desire to protect Tibetan monks now in re-education camps. Why is there not the same desire to protect North Koran refugees being sent back to North Korean prisons? The Olympic torch lost whatever symbolism it had when it became a political tool for governments like Hitler’s Germany, Soviet Union, and China. In my eyes now, it is nothing more than a giant match. When people say, it is not fair to the athletes who work all their lives for the event, I wonder why people do not talk about the unfairness to Tibetans, Burmese, Sudanese, or North Korean refugees when China gets Olympics? When people say the Olympics is not political but athletes are told they cannot say things that are political, I am confused.

    By the way, I am not saying do not have the Olympics. Do have the Olympics. Let the athletes who have worked all their life for the day. Me, I will not watch Olympics or spend money on it. One, because I think Olympics is pretty boring. Two, because like giving the athletes a chance, I also think the world should give people of Tibet, Burma, Sudan, North Korea, a chance These people never trained for a sporting event all their life, but they have suffered all their life and they also deserve a chance.

  • Wazi!

    oh boo hoo, Jennie! How lame you are! Just keep on telling yourself that what your doing is right. China doesn’t interfer in Burma and North Korea. Those people should deal with their governments. Chinese government is not responsible for those.

    The olympics will be a success and your cause will fail. You are misguided. Why don’t you learn something about Chinese life, instead of complaining so much? CCP is wonderful. Way better than democrats and republicans. Americans pertend to be a democracy, but their country is controlled by the rich. Americans have no real freedoms, unless they are rich. CCP listens to the people. It helps the people. It’s fair.

  • R. Elgin

    China doesn’t interfer in Burma and North Korea. Those people should deal with their governments. Chinese government is not responsible for those.

    but China has interfered in these places. Why do you think that China is called “big brother” by Myanmar or has given material aid to them as well as North Korea?

    . . . their country is controlled by the rich. Americans have no real freedoms, unless they are rich. CCP listens to the people. It helps the people. It’s fair.

    Oh, no . . . now that’s rich. Just how many millionaires do you suppose are in China just now and how many do you think there will be in ten years and do you think that they know influential people in the Party?

    After so many people’s houses were demolished, in Beijing, due to the games and after the games are done, just who do you think will profit from the planned urban development that is to occur in Beijing and do you think they will make money from this?

    Now if you had complained that dung smells, I could understand that but to proclaim the smell of your own dung as sweet while other’s reeks? You almost sound just like an American from the 50′s. . . you are too funny!

  • http://plus4chan.org/boards/n/ Peanut Butter

    This board is for loser English teachers and other assorted lost causes. Don’t forget: most English teachers are unemployable and went to shyte universities. By definition, they are not the brightest lots. After all, if they were smart enough to get a real job, they’d get one!

    Awesome trolling, 10/10

    I don’t think Chinese internet vigilantes have noticed the Marmot’s Hole yet, but if we keep posting on the torch relay, they might.

    They have over at AsiaFinest Forum; Robert’s also been linked by Global Voices, which gets a lot of Chinese traffic, so I’m sure you’ll get a massive influx of Chinese here.

    I’d LOVE to have curbstomped those loser white folks trying to split China.

    lol, successful troll is successful.

  • Terence

    I just think that everyone should look at the facts before pointing at fingers. If you would like to talk about human rights in China, please provide concrete evidence. Yelling, shouting, protesting without even know about the whole story is a stupid behavior. I meant at least go to China once and live there.

    Say you heard from your friends that X is a bad person. Without trying to know more about X, you go insult X, burn his apartment, kill his family. Is that really a wise behaviour? Why dont you try to know X personally. If X is really a bad person, then correcting him is the best way. Calling X names is just a counter productive behaviour. Let alone his family has nothing to do with it.

    Olympics has nothing do with human rights in China. Does protesting help at all? I will let you think about it.

  • bumfromkorea

    @Sonagi

    Lol… looks like the Chinese Invasion has begun. Run for your life before you get your virtual asses poked by virtual Chinese flag poles!

    I sincerely do hope Beijing Olympics is a success because I’m a general fan of the Olympics (despite all its shortcomings). I love watching almost all events except baseball (boring as hell) and track, and the marathon recharges my faith in humanity for the next four years and implicitly tell me, “Hey, if that guy can run 26 miles…”

    But you are living a pipe-dream if you think Olympics doesn’t have anything to do with politics. Sure, ideally it should be free of politics. But ideally, UN should be corruption-free, efficient political body without vested national interests, and ideally, lobbyists in U.S. should only be able to go talk to the senators, rather than paying for their extravagant plane trips to God knows where.

    And remember that, while the Tibet situation involved violence on both sides, during the protests the pro-China sides had the general monopoly on the violence. The problem also exist in that, under the premise of nationalism, one cannot reflect and self-criticize.

    Same problem exists to a certain level in all countries (South Korea not being an exception… not even close). But just because United States is involved in morally questionable situations doesn’t mean that an American cannot criticize other governments. In fact, the greatest thing about U.S. is that the same American can turn around and refer to his/her president as a chimp or question the vice president’s sanity without fearing any repercussion. Say what you will about Iraq and the idiots in the White House – if there were no freedom of expression or political fluidity, U.S. would still have been going about Iraq the stupid way (instead of Petraus’s way… not perfect, but definitely better). Can anyone say the same for China? Has any Chinese younger than 19 years old even seen the picture of the Chinese protester standing up to a column of tanks in Tiananmen?

    Admitting the problem is the first step towards fixing the problem. Screaming at the top of the lung that CNN is a liar isn’t convincing anybody.

  • jennie

    Sorry, I do not know how to quote from other posts in here so this is how I have to do it.

    TERENCE WROTE Yelling, shouting, protesting without even know about the whole story is a stupid behavior. I meant at least go to China once and live there.

    Who are you talking about? The Chinese students at the torch relay in South Korea? Yes, I agree, they were stupid. But I thought they lived most of their lives in China….

    By the way, how many Chinese who call the Dalai Lama names and accuse him of all sorts of conspiracies and crimes have lived in Tibet? How many have seriously talked to Tibetans (interrogation does not count)? How many have listened to the Dalai Lama speak or read his books?

    Common response to criticism of China is, “have you have lived in China?” First how do you know we have not been to China? Second, what parts of China will give “truth” about China. I am guessing prison is one place. It might be one of the few places where you can find people unafraid to speak critically of China’s government. Third, saying people can only have opinions and thoughts about issues they experience makes no sense as an absolute idea. I do not need to experience child abuse to know child abuse is wrong. I do not have to starve to imagine that starving is unpleasant. If the standard is people can only talk about what they personally experience, then why study philosophy, history, economics, anthropology, sociology, etc. All these things require learning and thinking about events and ideas through second hand information. This would mean a woman cannot have an opinion about military because she cannot be in combat. Yes, personal experience is an important way to reach understanding, but not always necessary. Plus there is danger that people make too much of their individual experience, assuming it is universal, and then making wrong conclusion. An example is a CCP member thinking that all Chinese people think CCP is wonderful because he cannot see beyond the privileged life of being a CCP member.

    WAIZ WROTE CCP is wonderful. Way better than democrats and republicans. Americans pertend to be a democracy, but their country is controlled by the rich. Americans have no real freedoms, unless they are rich. CCP listens to the people. It helps the people. It’s fair.

    How do you pretend to be a democracy? Is it you hold elections with one-party rule, making voting mandatory, then claim unanimous victory by your party with 99.9%?

    I am not bothered by your criticism of US government. We do it all the time here in the US. Everywhere our President goes, inside US and outside the country, people protest him and America. That is one of the great things in free and democratic societies.

    Democracy does not guarantee great or benevolent leaders, but it makes sure that they are not the only voices to have a say in the governing of this country. There are checks and balances, the Constituition, etc. People also get to vote them out of office at next election. Government is slave to voters, not people are slave to government. In China, if CCP is not benevolent, what is the alternative? How can you say that the CCP listens to the people, when China is a country without free speech and free press? News negative to CCP, youtube videos negative to CCP is blocked. Journalists like Wang Dejia or Li Yuanlong getting arrested for articles critical of CCP.

    Anyway, your criticism is not really against democracy but that US does not practice it correctly. This means you agree that democracy is a good thing, only US not doing it correctly. If this is the case, then China should practice it, and do a better job than US. China can become shining example to the world of democracy. Many people, including me, hope for this.

    Okay, I do not know why I let myself get involved in this back and forth with propaganda tools. I think from now on I will let their nonsense words speak for themselves. Otherwise, I can see this becoming a pointless circle. But here is an article a Chinese person who has lived both in China and Tibet wrote. But even she is attacked for criticism of CCP.

    http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/03/tibet-her-pain-my-shame/

  • anti-coldwar

    PRC’s Chinese Communist Party is a gathering of pigs, assholes, murderers, and moral degenerates.

    well done go to get bonus from your CIA boss you fucking stupid jerk.

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