It seems that the Olympic Torch will be coming to South Korea on or around April 26 but the odd thing is that the only mention of this is by the JoongAng Ilbo article on “Athletes selected to carry the torch in North Korea“. Naturally the North Koreans will cheer for the torch (which would otherwise never have found its way through such a place) but it really seems the government in South Korea is concerned frightened enough of any protest, so much so that there is not even a *peep* on the official website of Korea (korea.net) and no one so far seems to know who will carry it through Seoul. It is very strange to see Olympic spirit in North Korea yet silence in the South but then good is bad and what was bad is now good.
I wonder if it will pass by, at night, while we are in our beds and least aware . . .
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no one so far seems to know who will carry it through Seoul
Anyone want to make book that the Chinese will be doing it themselves or at least providing the security and that Korean Pride will be bending over at what otherwise would be loudly protested as an affront to national soveriegnity
On Sunday I saw a smallish demonstration go past Myung-dong, I assume on their way toward the embassy. They were protesting the persecution of falun-gong. There was one vehicle: a pong-go truck, the back of which had a tableau of an operating theater, depicting chinese doctors harvesting the organs of a falun gong member while soldiers stood guard, and a party aparatchik waved fistfuls of money.
Probably didn’t impress the Chinese too much.
What, they are just running the torch through the former Chinese Goguryeo Kingdom, whats the fuss?
here we have the expat once again imposing his brand of thinking onto to those who may not be at all interested in such wear and tear. this thing with tibet is a western thing and to expect koreans to protest what you superficially find important is the height of bloody arrogance.
how about the expat put his money where his big mouth is and go out protest the torch yourself? don’t see elgin calling on any of his brotheres to do what’s right.
i’ll tell you what, what say we here in the west stop trying to rain on china’s parade while we ignore the over one hundred thousand dead in iraq? you think the chinese can’t see the hypocrisy?
“this thing with tibet is a western thing”
The Dalai Lama clique is no match for Pawikirogi.
here we have the k-expat again imposing his brand of ignorance onto everyone with his giant paintbrush. for once you almost had a valid point (about the hypocrisy regarding Iraq) but you chose to bury it with your snide and patronizing comments. if you weren’t such an ass all the time, you might even find agreement here from time to time. even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Um, Pawi… Several of my Korean co-workers plan to protest the torch relay if possible and attend other protests as well. The local Buddhist community isn’t too happy about the Tibet situation. In case this isn’t clear, these are regular, salaried Koreans protesting, not professional protesters.
“. this thing with tibet is a western thing”
I think the Tibetan protesters who have been thrown in prison would beg to differ.
This thread has nothing to do with America or Iraq, rather is an observation of an absurd situation. Consider this from the statement from the IOC:
Yet the torch is going through South Korea like a thief in the night, most likely because of fear and, from here, to a place of greater fear, where there is no freedom to express opinion — North Korea. After that, it ends up at a truly modern symbol of how amazing, glorious and screwed up mankind can get while having little collective desire for self reflection. IMHO, this whole affair is sad commentary upon more than a few issues.
P.S., “Pawi”, I may be an “expat”, in Korea but you are an ass anywhere you may go.
That’s a very untraditional image! Ninja marathon relay runners. I can see the passing of the torch in the darkest, latest hours of the night, the runners all dressed in black, scampering through streetlamped illumination to take a few deep breaths in the shadows. Hesitantly moving on only after looking around for assailants.
The torchbearer of the future. Surviving the ordeal will become a new badge of honor.
Write about things you understand, pawi: Maybe your gravatar choice of the week or something like that.
Koreans, while most sympathizing with Tibetans, probably do not believe in protesting the Olympics. Especially after how France, Germany, and the US (who were trying to use this opportunity to bash the Chinese out of racial fear and jealousy of their growing economic might over their economies), were put in their places by China. For instance, look at the way the government of France, CNN, tippy toeing around offended Chinese nationalists, trying to fix the damage.
Koreans are pragmatic. Bashing and scapegoating the Chinese for all their problems, like the US is doing, will not do anything except hurt Korea especially at a time when the US military presence in Korea will be gone soon, Free Trade agreement with the US dead in the water, and the trade between the two countries declining. Also unfortunately, like it or not, China is Korea’s number one trading partner and number one destination of foreign investment. China is becoming more important than the United States for Korea to bash it over the head, over something that the West started because of racism and paranoia. Most Koreans probably do not like the growing political and economic influence of China (neither do I), but it’s a reality that a growing number of Asian countries must accept and work with it.
Coupla Chinese students in my Buddhism class just told me that they can’t attend our Haein-sa Temple-Stay trip this weekend because they were summoned to join other Chinese residents here to “help guide” (read: protect) the torch on Sunday… It’s not a voluntary thing for them.
This is an idiotic repetition of Chinese nationalist/netizen claims: “who were trying to use this opportunity to bash the Chinese out of racial fear and jealousy of their growing economic might over their economies”.
This is equally idiotic: “China is becoming more important than the United States for Korea to bash it over the head, over something that the West started because of racism and paranoia.”
Instead of shitting all over yourself and bringing in your tired racialist themes, you could could have answered Elgin’s question with 4 syllables: Sa Dae Ju Ui.
Slim, the current reality is this. How many people in the US really really care about Tibetans? Come on. US, and the West in general, are the biggest customers of China. It was them who created China of today. Instead of bashing it all the time, stop buying from them and stop investing in them. How about that, instead of constantly whining about them, put your actions into work instead of just whining.
Damned westerners:
TOKYO (AP) -: It was supposed to all start with a gala send-off at one of Japan’s most venerable and majestic Buddhist temples, the 1,400-year-old Zenkoji.
Instead, the Beijing Olympic torch will make its Japan debut in a parking lot. If you want a good view, now’s the time to join the riot police.
They will likely have all the front-row seats.
Mounting problems with the Japan leg of the relay - scheduled for Saturday - are just the latest in a string of embarrassments for Beijing, which had hoped the journey of its torch worldwide would be a showcase of solidarity and support for its games, which begin in August.
Following China’s crackdown after anti-government riots and protests in Tibetan areas in March, that hope has sputtered badly.
Protests or extremely tight security have marred the torch on virtually every stop it has made, including emotional scuffles in London and Paris, a massive detour in San Francisco and orders for police in Nepal to shoot if necessary when the torch makes its way up the Himalayan mountains.
The torch’s run through India, adopted home of the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, was whittled down to a virtual sprint under a 15,000-strong police presence through a tightly guarded government sector in New Delhi. In Malaysia, police quickly shut down a protest by three Japanese, who unfurled the Tibetan flag and yelled “Free Tibet” before getting roughed up by Chinese supporters of the games.
In Jakarta, Indonesia, a shortened, invitation-only relay was to take place Tuesday outside a sports stadium. Members of the public were barred from attending……….
If there’s this growing pragmatism amongst Koreans in general then why make the torch run a stealth event?
As bad as the Tibetan situation is, I don’t see any protests over abuse of North Koreans who are in far worse shape. Not one protest in this leg of Olympic torch trip.
Slim’s above link, proves my point Asian countries don’t want to piss off the Chinese who are essentially the new neighborhood gangsters. Thus the reason for tight securities to make sure they don’t get boycotted like France.
Oh yeah, and we’re all tippy-toeing around Chinese nationalists. I’ve got to remember to behave delicately around people who are served their information rectally.
Is President Bush boycotting the opening ceremony? Nope.
Is the US putting in economic sanctions against China like they did with Iraq, Iran, North Korea? Nope. Like I said, put your actions to where your mouth is, instead of just whining behind the Chinese backs. The reality is, the US needs China, and when that latest trade figure is posted and the latest budget deficit is announced, the US is still more dependent on China than yesterday.
ALL manner of causes have been latched onto by Olympic protesters, for better or worse. I would expect South Koreans to focus mainly on Koguryo, since the other issues (human rights, Darfur, Tibet, North Korea refugees) seem to have minimal traction there.
Placating the “neighborhood gangsters” by sacrificing your own values or violating your own constitution only works for so long. China will pocket that gesture and do whatever it wants next time.
This is an opportune moment for protesting and you’re going to see more of it. China is allowing the outside in, much to it’s own advantage. You can’t filter everything. Try to find the Mozart in white noise. China’s going to get a mixed bag. They obviously care otherwise why all the programs to clean up their image? At this point it would behoove them to listen at least a little. It’s only gonna get louder otherwise.
North Korea’s a different matter. You can protest all you want but Kim Jong Il is still going to build himself another small amusement park on a yacht while the rest of the country dreams of having something more than dirt sandwiches for dinner.
i heard the local quaker group is trying to organize a protest for sunday.
i do think though the koreans would apperciate the torch relay since it gots start at the berlin olympics of 1936
Whether China was an Empire, a republic or a communist republic, Chinese will still be bashed. It doesn’t matter what type of regime is in Beijing or Nanjing, China will always be the punching bag.
Take a minute to read this, step back and have a thought of it: http://www.chinesenewcentury.c.....8f7dcf29be
Why Tibet? and not Northern Ireland, Texas, Hawaii or Okinawa?
I wonder
I don’t see any Westerners (except for few organizations advocating North Korean refugees) protesting China’s treatment of North Korean refugees.
When Roh Mu Hyun’s generation appeased North Korea, posters here wrote off South Koreans and many advocated economic boycott of South Korea. Now that the new Korean administration took over and the US is going the other way (appeasing North Korea), not a peep is heard here.
Here’s what a great multi-tasker I am. I can say that I’m against the Chinese trying to build a four lane highway to the base of the Himalayas, the Brazilians cutting down the Amazon rain forest and building suburbs in its place, getting run off the road by logging trucks loaded with redwoods on hwy 1 and have plenty of venom left for the war in Iraq. They don’t exclude one another.
The US government would come across as a little less sincere because of its dalliances in other countries affairs. Maybe that’s why Bush isn’t boycotting.
I’ve been taught that I’m allowed an opinion and that’s all this is. Now you might say I should do something and not just talk. I get up at five and get to work by seven. I get off at five and pick up my daughter at school. Then I try to make her a nutricious dinner that she’ll eat, (no easy task). I pass out and then do it all over again the next day. You say I should do something and there’s something inside me that wants to do just that but what comes out of my mouth is, “yawn”. You might think that’s indifference but it’s not. It’s simply an overwhelming group of other, more immediate priorities.
Cm, I take it you’re a Korean living in Canada. Maybe you’ve never learned that you can have an opinion and express it. Nobody can do anything about it. They can gnash their teeth and threaten you but it doesn’t have to stop you. You can flip them off!
Another good reason to boycott the Beijing Olypics ….. China shipping huge amounts of weapons to Zimbabwe as a last ditch attempt to prop up that evil Marxist dictator Mugabe. Not to speak of the reports of North Korean troops being seen in the eastern part of the country arriving via Mozambique. The plot thickens….
Actually, Joao strip-burns his land simply to create grazing land for cattle not to build endless cloned housing. He doesn’t realize nor does he care that the land will turn to goo-glop in two years, completely unusable. He’s simply trying to feed a starving family. He’s truly a slave to the immediate.
A much more sympathetic figure than the guy who just wants a redwood deck.
Q. What’s the difference between Pawi and a cunt?
A. You’ll never see a cunt making a Pawi of himself on a forum.
Regime-serving propaganda alert: It doesn’t matter what type of regime is in Beijing or Nanjing, China will always be the punching bag.
Is there software that translates what cm says happened or was said or done into what ACTUALLY transpired with the events in question?
That would help a lot.
CM:
The line “Western countries are jealous of China” is getting not only old, but IMHO ridiculous. Sorry, I haven’t met one single Westerner (or Asian for that matter) who said, “Damn, I wish I were Chinese” or “Damn, I wish I were in China”. Not knocking the Chinese here, what they have done (economically) is amazing. The US needs China, you’re right. There’s no denying this. However, China needs the US just as much. They make all of our stuff, they are truly the world’s factory. But without us BUYING said stuff…..yeah, you get my point. China has grown at around 10% a year for a quarter century, awesome. It truly is the greatest economic growth in human history. However, China is still decades behind the US, Japan, Germany, etc. China will pass them someday if China does not disintegrate beforehand, and that is a big “if” in my opinion.
“Benkaiser”, I read your alleged letter and it demonstrates a victim’s thinking — much like a cult member from a doomsday sect — rather than the reality of China today, which is far from being a victim of anyone.
To pick bits and pieces from history without any encompassing frame of reference and insight generally leads one astray since it is like creating a fantasy world from the fragments of fact and history. Such is also a step in a potentially dangerous direction since is also the means by which the weak-minded are prodded to acts of social discord and even violence since it is the way one justifies action taken against others. Adolf Hitler’s rise to power and the rise of Nazism is a good example of this sort of fallacy at its worst.
I’ve met African-Americans that detest “whites” because they can only imagine themselves as being a victim of society at-large. I have also met African-Americans who are millionaires, lawyers, musicians and successful people because they do not see themselves as victims, rather humans endowed with opportunity and they take it, as it is and make the most of it. The expressed mind set of the latter demonstrates a victim’s perpetuation of being a victim; they think they have been a victim and because of this, they must still be a victim.
If you really feel like the author that alleged, anonymous letter, then I encourage you to go talk to a psychiatrist or counselor because you need to badly.
#11,
My cousin, at one time a highly-ranked downhill skier in the junior, carried the Olympic torch during the relay for one of the previous games. He was all excited about the experience…until he received the schedule:
He would carry it at 1:30 am…on some adjacent road where he’d have a better chance of being eaten by a bear or a coyote than being run over by a truck.
So, there’s my cousin out in the sticks in the dead of night and it’s -35C having his Olympic moment.
To add insult to injury, they misspelled his name on the official list of the torchbearers and on the certificate that they gave him.
I record stuff for the digital Korea Herald so I read the unedited articles that will be published the next day.
Check Wednesday’s edition for an update as to who will carry (actually who has refused to carry) the torch after they were asked by Beijing to do so in Seoul. Green Korea rep says no way as well as a few others.
deleted (off-topic)
What happens when some spectator with a death wish tries to wave the Tibetan flag during the Olympics? There will be thousands of foreign journalists milling around looking for a cheap story, thousands, if not more, ordinary Chinese around sick and tired of foreigners trying to break up their country and a group of protesters who want the same street cred that anti-apartheid protesters had back in the 70’s and 80’s. What will the Chinese police and the Chinese government do then?
Things could get ugly if they a) do nothing, and the Chinese man on the street takes things into his own hands, b) if they march in with the riot police and throw the flag waver in jail or deport them.
I wonder if they have a contingency plan for what to do in this case? I’d be surprised if it doesn’t happen. They can search peoples bags going in and prohibit “expressions of marketing or politics” in the stadium, but I suspect it will not deter the determined.
The Japanese built railroads and brought “progress” to Manchuria in the 1930s, too, Grace. Why weren’t the Chinese any more grateful then than Tibetans are now?
Elgin, please, clever strikethrough, THEN safer phrase.
Will the 2010 torch be similarly hounded? Surely the Canadian Armed Forces have killed more folks over the last few years than the PLA has?
#34 because after all, there ain’t no racism in the good ol USuvA, it’s all in yer ATTitude
Why shouldn’t that logic work Slim? That’s more and more accepted that Koreans should be grateful toward Japan for bringing progress.
Hey wow. An Olympics thread that actually has something to do with Korea? Here on the Hole? Amazing.
Anyhow, cm… I have to admit, I’m jealous of China. After all, they’ve got almost as much land as the United States, more than four times the people, and nearly half the GDP. And that’s not even counting Taiwan (who we’re all also very jealous of, just not quite as much.) Numbers don’t lie… It’s a far greater thing to be Chinese than to be anything else on the planet.
“Why not Northern Ireland…?”
Easy. Because the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not support political parties that endorse independence or reunification with Eire. Before too long, in all likelihood, they will, and when that happens Northern Ireland will leave the United Kingdom. In the next 50 years, it’s probably going to happen with Scotland, too.
Now, what’s the parallel with Tibet again?
“… it’s probably going to happen with Scotland, too.”
Is Wales next then? Next fifty years… will the UK just be lower Saxony?…
Not jealousy of the status now. But jealousy of their growth and their potential. I would say it’s more about fear mixed in with envy and jealousy.
I don’t see any Western countries calling for economic boycott of China as they would normally do with smaller countries.
Anyway, get used to more Chinese asserting themselves and bossing everyone around including you, just because they can.
“The line “Western countries are jealous of China” is getting not only old, but IMHO ridiculous. Sorry, I haven’t met one single Westerner (or Asian for that matter) who said, “Damn, I wish I were Chinese” or “Damn, I wish I were in China”.”
Would it be jealousy if someone wished their manufacturing or service job wasn’t being exported overseas to places like China, India, or Mexico?
Since moderation is going on (#36), why is the “cunt” name-calling still there (#30)? Are there exceptions to the moderation policy if it’s directed at Pawi?
As legitimate as the torch relay in Korea is as a post on a Korea-centered blog, to post on a sensitive China topic at this time is to invite a whole world of unreason, hatred and sophistry that almost will make us pine for the calm wisdom of Korean netizens.
I mostly agree with Sonagi’s point a few threads back that the protests — especially the wheel chair episode — have mainly just given China new propaganda weapons with which to rally a captive audience back home. That said, the Borg-like reaction of the Chinese masses has not won that nation many new fans.
Only a few countries on the torch route — North Korea and China itself — have the ability, and are regimes of the nature, to ban protests outright. Wiser protest leaders in Paris and London should have controlled their members and avoided actually disrupting the torch’s progress. Activists could have gotten wide exposure for their messages, Chinese state media could have in their standard fashion filmed and broadcast back home only the supporters and the flagwaivers bused in by PRC embassies, and we all could have gotten past this.
‘Course, that also assumes that the average protester knows China as anything other than a third-world hellhole with a big wall, a bunch of bicycles, and a bunch of people who live and work in sweatshops for pennies a day. Such an assumption, IMHO, overestimates the average Westerner’s general level of awareness concerning China… especially amongst the subset of Tibet protesters (who the Chinese press gleefully pointed out) who can’t even find Tibet on a map of China, and probably wouldn’t do a whole lot better finding China on a map of the world.
Aside from quotes of Chinese officials and selected comments from the fenqing (angry youth), I buy little of what the Orwellian Chinese media are saying about any of this. (And we complain about the Korea media!)
There will always be protesters of an issue du jour, but the most visible and vociferous pro-Tibet protesters have in fact been Tibetan and they well know their maps, including the pre-invasion version that represents a much larger historic Tibet.
China is just throwing its usual tantrums because its feelings are hurt. Welcome to reality, china - nobody likes you.
‘Since moderation is going on (#36), why is the “cunt” name-calling still there (#30)? Are there exceptions to the moderation policy if it’s directed at Pawi?’
yes, there is. i’ve had my posts deleted by marm for calling lawyer a nasty person. he uses different rules when it comes to me and thus, someone calling me one of vilest names that exists in the english language, is tolerated.
Actually, pawi, you might be right; but then, if you want complete freedom of expression, you should start your own blog instead of trolling for insults among your betters (that is to say, you need to learn to play nice with the people who run the place, a talent you seem to willfully avoid using)…
I think most industrialized nations are becoming dhimmi nations as craven, so-called “Liberals” cave in to pressure from various Muslim groups. I say so-called because they are not “liberal” or “tolerant”, just a mix of narcissist, guilt-ridden, and immature… No sense of responsibility for others, especially those with no power (widows, orphans, etc.).
They make all of our stuff, they are truly the world’s factory. But without us BUYING said stuff…..yeah, you get my point.
Our companies design stuff and hire Chinese to assemble it. If the Chinese get too expensive, or decide to stick it to foreign investors, our companies will hire people from some other country to do this. That’s all there is to it. Americans will buy stuff regardless of whether the Chinese or somebody else makes it. Whether the Chinese get to make these things depends on whether they can cut it on price. Take it from me - our people aren’t sourcing from China because of Chinese design capabilities.
#21
“The reality is, the US needs China, and when that latest trade figure is posted and the latest budget deficit is announced, the US is still more dependent on China than yesterday.”
ASnd China IS and WILL be dependent on the U.S. yesterday and today and in the forseeable future. Which is why China is scared that westerners will not show up for the Olympics to spend money and all that investment in the games will be blown at a huge financial cost to China.
The above post was meant to be pseudo-sarcastic…
“Is Wales next then? Next fifty years… will the UK just be lower Saxony?…”
Wales, maybe.
Lower Saxony…no, I think perhaps the remaining part will be called exactly what it is now “England”, [Land of the Angles]!!!
Unless of course, the Cornish liberation movement (Free Kernewek) gains ground followed by, Mercia, Wessex Northumbria et al
Thanks Elgin. Appreciate your concern but I do know what I am talking and where I am coming from. Victimized? I was because I came from a country where Chinese are officially discrimated upon. But it didn’t kill me but made me stronger.
Again, thanks alot.
“Vilest names that exists in the english language”
What’s vile about it Pawi, personally I love cunt….
I want to polish pawi’s pure Korean *ock because I am a vile permiscuous foreigner/sexual deviant like all foreigners are…
Oh yeah baby.
Alright, can we cut that out now?