And in the KT, English teacher Steve Schertzer in Busan tells English teachers — and businessmen — to stop Westernizing Koreans. Here’s some of it:
It is no secret that many of the foreign English teachers come here with an agenda.
Like the U.S. government, which unabashedly send troops to different nations to spread democracy, many native English teachers here shamelessly indoctrinate Korean children and adults (especially girls and women), into the Western point-of-view by bringing into the classroom ideas and modes of behavior that should be considered out-of-bounds for a native English teacher in a foreign country.
Examples of this indoctrination are native English teachers in hagwon (private language institutes) and universities “advising” Korean women on how to leave their husband or boyfriend, to English teachers who brazenly bring feminist writings, revolutionist literature, and material which openly advocates radical social change into a public school classroom with the intention of disseminating this to impressionable 13 and 14 year old boys and girls.
A recent thread on a teachers and expatriates’ Web site in Korea will attest to this. Much of this material is not only inappropriate for Korean middle school students, it’s offensive. Any native English teacher who does this should be considered a missionary and a cultural imperialist who seeks to undermine the values of their host country.
Read the rest on your own.
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God, how sad can you get?
He should read “When One Culture’s Custom Is Another’s Taboo” by Barbara Crossette (New York Times, March 6 1999), to my mind a classic on when it’s time to call a spade a spade and acknowledge the bad points of a country or culture to be what they are. Not merely “different”.
http://www.panix.com/~squigle/dcp/cultrel.html
I’m not certain whether “esl_Steve” is right or wrong, since I don’t have a first-hand view of these esl-terrorists in action; but I do agree that esl teachers should avoid politics in the classroom, avoid seducing students or their families, and avoid eating at unhealthy places…
This guy has no right to call himself an English teacher or pass himself off as some sort of education expert giving advice in newspapers if he doesn’t understand the essential point that like all languages, English is embedded with its own values, concepts, ideas and unique worldview. Indeed, the main reason why many Koreans can’t speak English decently after long, hard years of study is because they try to speak it from a strictly Korean point-of-view. If people want to learn English, it’s all or nothing — end of story. To be sure, if people are being forced to learn English against their will, that’s wrong and is the main problem with the current ESL system here, but of course that’s another issue entirely, isn’t it?
It’s inappropriate to begin an article like that with anything other than “Are you there God? It’s me, Steve.”
I’d be the first to say that teachers should be more discreet in the classroom. After all, if the goal is to elicit conversation, a teacher who withholds opinions (at least until the end of class) is generally more successful.
But comparing English teachers to corporate McDonald’s executives? That doesn’t even begin to make sense. He might as well throw in gangster rappers. They’re American and vaguely threatening, right?
Read the rest?
No thanks, the guy’s a nut.
This guy Steve Schertzer needs to be euthanized!
Apparently, he has no life and spends the better part of his non-working time authoring diatribes against foreign teachers in Korea.
He is a foreign teacher in Korea and he keeps writing this insane BS to the papers. Now, with the high quality journalism/media we have in Korea, they keep printing it.
I have not personally met Steve, but I know someone who has and this guy most definitely needs to get a life and/or find a reason for living other than writing letters to the media that totally diss foreign teachers while totally kissing ass on Korea!
After reading his latest diatribe, I can see that Steve’s agenda in Korea is to promote misogyny and male chauvinism as he clearly states that he is against students learning about feminism and other forms of female empowerment.
My guess is poor little Stevie was coming to Korea expecting all the women to be subservient dolls who would cater to his every him and treat him like a king because he feels like he’s a “real man”. I bet he got the surprise of his life.
Steve, go to the Middle East where your views on women are still popular!
#1: Thanks for that link, James. I’ve heard you mention that article before on other comment boards, and was curious to read it.
So who volunteers to adapt those ideas and send a rebuttal to the times editor?
And where does the times dig up these guys? Weren’t they also the ones who published that “top 50 universities” clown a week or two back? I think this guy lost a bet, or somebody’s twisting his arm, or he’s whipped through the floor by his Korean mother-in-law. That’s the only way I can excuse this drivel. Either that or this guy’s the new Jonathan Swift.
In my opinion, a lot of the negative comparisons made by non-Korean English teachers are more a (tactless) expression of culture-shock than a cleverly disguised attempt to colonize the thoughts of Koreans, and I check how well-informed the critic is and how long they’ve been here, and take their critiques with an appropriately sized grain of salt when they start moaning.
I recognize that the topics he’s thinking of don’t go over well with adults, and I’ve advised coworkers of mine not to bring their culture shock into their conversation classes before, for the sake of not rubbing people the wrong way. . . but what’s his proposed solution, anyway, for teachers to be ideologically programmed for three months before we’re allowed to enter a classroom with impressionable children? (Sounds like a great addition to the current E-2 visa requirements.)
Again, thanks, James. I’m sure glad I switched to the Herald-Tribune now, and I’m outta here.
I’m setting the over-under on this comment thread at 80.
#3. King Baeksu, I can’t agree that one has to adopt a certain worldview to speak English properly. If that is true then English is a rubbish language as it is only capable of expressing certain human thoughts.
As far as I know the guys in the Socialist Worker’s Party speak perfectly fluent English, as did Oswald Mosley. Is there some unique worldview that they are expressing?
Just because Koreans use Jondaemal when they speak Korean to one another doesn’t mean I have to, especially when talking to other non-Koreans.
Are you subscribing to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis or just having us on?
I threw up a little bit in my mouth when I saw that the Great Marmot had linked to a Schertzer ‘article’.
We’ve gotten to know Schertzer quite well down at Pusanweb.
He’s an expert teacher:
“An ideal English lesson consists of about 80 percent listening and 20 percent speaking.
http://www.koreabridge.com/for.....topic=5839
He’s professional:
“For the last two weeks I, along with two other EPIK teachers on my team, (24 altogether), have been going around Busan administering a speaking test to middle-school students… The problem is with the EPIK supervisors at each district office. These incompetent boobs, … have not communicated with us as to how to get to their schools…With ONE HOUR to go before the test actually begins, I am in a PC room still waiting for a call. I will sit here and wait. (Or maybe I’ll get a hamburger.) It’s incredible how Korean logic operates.”
Instead of calling his supervisor or asking a co-teacher to help, he took the passive-aggressive approach, just so he’d have something to bitch about.
http://www.koreabridge.com/for.....topic=4985
He’s also fond of the students:
“One beautiful little girl nicknamed “Sophia”, with eyes that danced as she spoke, took both my hands in hers and attempted to teach me the moves to “Tell Me” by the Wonder Girls.”
“I look forward to Sophia taking my hands in hers once again, and teaching me to dance.”
A little over the top, especially about a 10-year old.
http://www.ajarn.com/Contris/schertzerfeb2008.htm
#9. roboseyo, if I take over 80 how many posts am I allowed myself?
The guy is clearly a couple waves short of a shipwreck.
this’ll be my last one. . . no ballot box stuffing, or Stephen Colbert will be angry at you.
Anyone else using the E-2 as an (admittedly financially sound) excuse to learn Korean?
Hahaha – “ESL Terrorist”.
Classic!
#10: Eujin, the writer was arguing that English should be taught in some sort of value-free and concept-neutral manner and I argue that is an impossible task. Why, for example, have many modern Koreans adopted the English word “wife” even when speaking Korean instead using the traditional pure-Korean term anae or “inside person”? Because the word “anae” is freighted with a certain cultural value/concept/gender relation that does not reflect the reality of many married women in Korea today who are no longer confined within the home. English is an especially hybridized and flexible language and certainly does not overdetermine a specific way of thinking politically or ideologically, but when compared with Korean, as is the case here, it certainly does carry many values and concepts that are different from those of Korean, and cannot help but have an influence on the ESL student’s way of looking at and understanding the wider world.
Although I hate to admit I read that crap, and I blame the Marmot for those lost minutes of life, as his one example of evil imperialistic businessmen this clown refers to McDonald’s Korea head Ray Frawley as an “American” executive. Sorry champ, but the mate’s an Aussie.
And this has to be the most condescending-toward-Koreans piece ever published in any “newspaper.” It posits that Koreans are simpletons, equally and uniquely incapable of resisting the spellbinding thrall of a Prince Edward Island English teacher or a Big Mac. Woe betide these poor, helpless souls, that is until their brave defender, ESL Man, comes to the rescue. “Thank you ESL Man, for saving us from moral decrepitude and hardened arteries!” say the kiddies across the land.
That much shame cannot be an easy thing to bear. How can he despise his own cultural identity so much? Good thing he’s clearly not a feminist, or he’d probably have to cut his own unloved dick off.
This guy is frackin’ delusional.
“It is no secret that many of the foreign English teachers come here with an agenda.” I forgot, what’s the name of our secret organization again, SPECTRE, KAOS, or THRUSH? Damn, the meetings are so secret that I can’t even find them.
“many native English teachers here shamelessly indoctrinate Korean children and adults (especially girls and women), into the Western point-of-view.” “Examples of this indoctrination are “advising” Korean women on how to leave their husband or boyfriend.”
As my middle school hagwon students haven’t even started dating, I just ask them if they have any cute and unattached aunts available. Plus, their minds are already jam packed with everything gaming and texting. So, to try and explain why their history text books are highly revisionist, or have omissions the size of the entire Valless Marineris Canyon system, and introducing them to the writings of anyone besides J.K. Rowling would be more than foolhardy on my part.
And as far as McDonald’s goes, no one is forcing people inside and cramming those tasty fries down their throats. Without choice, we may never have come in from the cold, traded the horse for a car, or those stick in the dirt communications for these newfangled computers and cell phones.
BTW, even with all my insidious teaching, I’ve been able to outsmart that eye in the sky of my classroom, and those eyeballs at home, for two years now. I’ve become so adept that I’ve even beguiled the boss into asking me to stick around for another year.
Examples of this indoctrination are native English teachers in hagwon (private language institutes) and universities “advising” Korean women on how to leave their husband or boyfriend, to English teachers who brazenly bring feminist writings, revolutionist literature, and material which openly advocates radical social change into a public school classroom with the intention of disseminating this to impressionable 13 and 14 year old boys and girls.
The irony, of course, is that the vast majority of these washed-up Engrish teaching losers are themselves refugees of Western feminism.
I think King Baeksu’s assertion is dead-on. Cultural values and, inevitably, politics, are embedded into languages at the fundamental level… Therefore, it is also inevitable that “westernization” occurs when one learns the English languages.
Having said that, educators in general need to stay away from intentionally asserting politics into their teachings unless the subject itself is their politics.
My high school American history teacher, who were really respected by her students (extreme rarity these days), would never disclose any of her political leanings because she didn’t want to unfairly change our political outlook – she wanted us to figure that out ourselves. My humanities professor, also very respected, never disclosed her religion for the same reason.
“native English teachers in hagwon (private language institutes) and universities “advising” Korean women on how to leave their husband or boyfriend, to English teachers who brazenly bring feminist writings, revolutionist literature, and material which openly advocates radical social change into a public school classroom with the intention of disseminating this to impressionable 13 and 14 year old boys and girls.”
If these are all true accusations, then I think everyone can agree that the teachers in these incidences have overstepped their responsibilities as language instructors. It’s not necessarily that the politics that they present to the students are bad, but I do have ethical qualm over educators intentionally promoting their view of politics through their position as educators (whatever that politics may be).
These expat types love to compare Western women to Korean women. Western women are too loud, bitchy, assertive, hostile to men, and generally have forgotten how to act like women. A man can get sued for sexual harassment for just looking at a woman the wrong way. Gentlemen, feminism has created this mess. Have you forgotten?
The number one reason why you are in Korea is because Korean women are not supposed to be like that. And now you are consciously working to bring feminism to Korea?
That’s just fucking brilliant, dude.
#23 – So what of those of us who like their women to be loud and in charge? Sorry that you find Western women to be dick-shriveling harpies, but a lot of us find submissive, stay in the kitchen mom-types about the unsexiest thing on the planet.
Oh, yeah, feminist writers… Be careful, they might actually speak their mind and want to go to university if they read ‘Anne of Green Gables’.
Kids are far more sophisticated than he gives them credit for. When I was 13-15, I was going through my Victor Hugo and George Orwell phases. It didn’t prevent me from being the top student in my class.
“…bringing offensive literature into the classrooms of this nation is the exclusive right of the Korean teachers, not foreigners.”
In ol’ Steve’s view, it’s perfectly OK for Korean teachers to indoctrinate their students with offensive literature. I think that’s a new low, even for a bottom-dweller like you, Steve.
Anyone else think that Steve Schertzer is not a real person, but rather some kind of avant-garde art performance?
@#24
. But a surprising number of people that I’ve met in the States do have a thing for submissive women… but they’re still in the minority.
I think somebody unintentionally let out their dominatrix fetishes (just kidding!)
“Kids are far more sophisticated than he gives them credit for. When I was 13-15, I was going through my Victor Hugo and George Orwell phases. It didn’t prevent me from being the top student in my class.”
The fact that you were going through Victor Hugo and George Orwell at the time probably contributed to being the top student. Most kids… not so much.
#22: “Therefore, it is also inevitable that “westernization” occurs when one learns the English languages.”
Bum, I obviously agree, and I think the writer should put his money where his mouth is and just stop teaching English here altogether, or else risk accusations of base hypocrisy for complicity in the very phenomenon of Westernization he decries.
Perhaps he could become a full-time and of course volunteer activist here instead, organizing mass boycotts against Ronald McDonald and Pizza Slut, or work on a farm in Cholla-do where his toxic Western presence amongst the benighted natives would be reduced significantly, while at the same time helping preserve Korean traditions of the land and all that. The pay would suck but he’d probably feel much better about himself.
Or perhaps he could just leave Korea altogether, for if nothing else the removal of his apparently rather large Western body would at least diminish the Western presence here on the Peninsula by about 100 kilos and several loud decibels.
The article is so preposterous it must be a hoax of some sort.
#17: King Baeksu and #22, at the risk of being accused of ballot stuffing, I still don’t agree.
Are you saying that I am more likely to expect my wife to stay at home if I only speak Korean, as compared to if I only speak English? Does Titus 2 or 1 Timothy 5 make more sense in Korean than in English?
Is this like saying that because I use words like “mankind” and “history” I’m more likely to think that males rather than females should play a prevalent role in society? As I learn Korean am I more likely to identify with “ah yes, chipsaram, you must stay at home”?
What is certainly true is that learning a language gives one greater access to the thought processes of the people who use that language. So it is true that learning English allows you to more ready access to whatever “culture” or “politics” you think the language carries. But it’s not really in the language, it’s only in the language users.
There is this certain notion that if a language doesn’t have a single word for a concept then that concept must be somehow alien to the speakers of that language. Allegedly there’s no word in English for the Danish word “hygge”. But anyone who has experienced “hygge” knows what it is. You don’t need a single word for it, just an experience of what it is.
OK, apologies for the long post but Stephen Colbert will be angry with me otherwise.
You almost seem to be suggesting that somehow English is a better language than Korean because it is conceptually more flexible. Pawi seems to speak pretty good English, does pawi understand concepts that non-English speaking Koreans don’t?
@#29
What I’m trying to say is that politics inevitably bleed into language instructions, but one should not consciously and intentionally assert politics into it (as some English teachers apparently had).
For example, Korean language have family titles that obviously do not have its counterparts (누나, 형, 언니, 오빠, 고모/이모, 외삼촌/작은아버지, etc.), in that no one actually calls their older brother “Older brother” or “big brother” without sounding awkward. Consequently, learning about these different family titles would also carry the undertone of intense focus and attention towards family hierarchy that may not be prevalent in the learner’s culture.
Vice versa is true. A Korean learning about English family titles (”mom”,”dad”,”aunt”,”uncle”) would also be learning about the LACK of family hierarchy that is very different from the Korean culture.
Thus, language instructions inevitably carry cultural exchanges. What Steve Schertzer suggests is physically impossible. But I think a fair point can be made that teachers shouldn’t consciously and intentionally insert their politics into instructions, no matter what that politics may be.
Lol… I guess that was directed at #30, not #29
This guy needs to be shot on sight so he doesn’t further pollute the human gene pool. If not, I’m sure he will marry some throw away Korean ajuma that no self respecting Korean gentlemen would even consider and become completely twisted.
Funny thing is…for a guy that whines about McD’s, he looks like a gold card carrying member.
lmao at comment 3
Languages are languages they dont come with cultural values.
Well, it’s been established that Schertzer is:
- nutcase with a real hard on for dissing English teachers in the local media.
and
- a complete loser who has no social life and definitely has some mental issues.
The question remains is do we continue to be pissed off at his habitual attempts to smear all of us or just feel sorry for him because he obviously has some real problems?
Or both?
#30: “What is certainly true is that learning a language gives one greater access to the thought processes of the people who use that language. So it is true that learning English allows you to more ready access to whatever “culture” or “politics” you think the language carries. But it’s not really in the language, it’s only in the language users.”
I think we essentially agree, save for the last sentence which is a distinction without a difference. Language doesn’t exist without users. That’s why it is constantly changing and evolving. I believe this is a point that Wittgenstein made in Philosophical Investigations, i.e., about the impossibility of a truly private language.
I do not think I was arguing that English is superior to Korean. I do think, however, that Koreans use Korean in a Korean way and English-speakers use their particular dialect form of English in their own way, and that there are many differences between the way Koreans use their native language and the way native speakers of English use their native language. It follows that a Korean who has become fluent in English will have learned how to use language and hence think in a new and different way.
Personally, I think Koreans use English too much these days, mainly because it is easier for them to import loan words in many cases than to create new words using Korean roots and semantic building blocks. I would personally support the idea of Koreans being more creative and active in coming up with Korean neologisms that reflect their current reality, rather than being so lazy and coming up with absurdities like “Inno City” or weird hybrids like “Sexy Mong” or “Saladent.” This is actually a form of linguistic colonialism, but it is Koreans who are doing it and thus they have no one to blame but themselves.
Finally, etymologically, the word history is gender-neutral as far as I know. As for Pawi, he seems to be gender-neutral as well.
#34: I believe it was also Wittgenstein who said, “That of which we cannot speak, we must pass over in silence.”
The lack of creativity, a trait unfornuately held by alot of Koreans, is a result of repression and still living remnants of Confucius thinking.
If a Korean becomes more creative and independent in his thought process its not because of a language it most likely has to do with whomever he learned English from.
While it is true that currently system of education in Korea tends to suppress creativity (apparently I was quite an artist until my 3rd grade teacher severely chastised me for drawing things that weren’t ‘on topic’
), to attribute creativity in the Korean population mostly to English language education… is a bit too much.
#39: Bum, I did try warn him in #37, didn’t I?
Oh, yeah, feminist writers… Be careful, they might actually speak their mind and want to go to university if they read ‘Anne of Green Gables’.
I had a thing for Megan Follows, who played Anne Shirley.
And for them, there are any number of women who will happily hop quite readily into a submissive role, whatever that means. Sure, you might have to move away from New York to increase your chances, but heck — who said Utah is that bad a place, anyhow? I’m just saying that not everyone is brutalized by the idea of a strong woman (to the point of becoming a ‘refugee from Western feminism’, even!) As for the people who actually compare Western Women to Korean Women as if such a categorical comparison was even possible… well, they’re just deluded on both ends.
People are such hypocrites sometimes. Anyone ever here of the Korean Wave?
Why anyone would want a weak, submissive woman is beyond me.
It seems many women want submissive men. And heaven forbid a free thinking, liberated Korean women. Korean men wouldn’t have any slaves if that were to happen.
Like the U.S. government, which unabashedly send troops to different nations to spread democracy,
hey dipshit you have a job because those troops were sent to spread democracy
#27,
Yes, basically the point I was making. I was alluding to the fact that the works of Hugo and Orwell are thought provoking and exactly what you should want a teenager to read.
Sure, some kids are content with reading Harry Potter…but in my experience many Korean kids like reading something with a little bit more meat. I knew a 15 year-old Korean boy who had promised himself he would read everything written by Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, for example.
This guy has to be taking the piss:
http://www.ajarn.com/Contris/schertzerfeb2008.htm
I woulnd’t mind foreigners bringing their ideals to South Korea, but I don’t think they should exploit their teaching positions to indoctrinate the children. I will say the same about non-foreingers too, ESPECIALLY the teacher’s union who’s been abusing their teaching position to brainwash students with communist crap.
#47 – that’s brutal. The guy’s self-righteousness and self-loathing rises like the steam from a pile of warm shit.
#47,
A bit too flowery for my own tastes, but I gotta give him credit for being able to write for his audience.
But, is that a poorly formulated sentence I see or does he really believe that HIV positive people are unsavory characters?
Oh, and he’s ‘colored blind’? I’d blame racist hiring practices for that one.
Hey, Link. Drop a line to the Korean government. They need your help with the website for their new TalK program.
This is actually a form of linguistic colonialism, but it is Koreans who are doing it and thus they have no one to blame but themselves.
i.e., it really isn’t “colonialism” then, is it?
@#50
I think that’s the point of the comment…
I understand the articles premise.
We are here to teach the English curriculum given to us. We are not to indoctrinate on our political, religious, or sexual bias.
Korea is a Confucian society. We are not here to change their cultural system.
Korea is a religious society. They are mostly Buddhist, Christian, and Catholic. Foreigners who want a pulpit to rant their Americanized Secular Atheism do not belong here.
Thankfully, Korea still allows pre-teens and young teens to be kids. The National media has not cast them into sexual meat on display. Foreigners who purposely use their lessons as an “awareness” do not belong here.
Like the writer of the article, I am sort of amazed and perplexed. So called educated teaching University Graduates do not have the common sense to simply follow the curriculum in front of them.
#47, That’s disturbing on so many levels.
I’m starting to wonder if he might actually be a North Korean plant?
I wonder if Bruce Cumings senses a disturbance in the force.
I think some here have overstated the connection between language and culture. Sure, English lacks honorifics and is more egalitarian than Korean, but that doesn’t mean that the language somehow contains feminist values. If that were true,the English language should have changed drastically during the 60s Women’s Rights Movement, which isn’t the case. Also as someone pointed out, if a language lacks a word for a concept, it can always borrow one, like “wife” to recognize the new role of women in society.
In the second of Schertzer’s bizarre articles posted by Marmot, he suggests that in addition to a blood test and police check, the Korean government “test his tears” to gauge “his heart” and love for students, which includes the handholding with the 12 yr old girl.
Seriously, this guy’s article makes a real point, although not the one he wants to make – there really does need to be another test to screen English teachers in Korea – a psychological test for mental stability, which would help protect Korean kids from the likes of Schertzer. Something is really off about that guy.
As for culture in the classroom – it’s an interesting topic for the adult level conversation course. In a ‘western style’ classroom students are encouraged to voice their views, and are welcome to argue, like Pawi, that Korean ways are vastly superior, if they wish.
What’s really funny is Schertzer’s view of Korean women as passive followers – ready to separate from their husbands at the foreign teacher’s mere suggestion. Come on now, Korean women are a pretty wary lot, and are a whole lot more likely to manipulate and take advantage of the foreign teacher than the other way around. The foreign teacher is a foreigner in Korea after all, hardly a position of power. The Korea Times ought to exercise better judgement than publish this bizarre garbage.
Anyone have an extra tissue handy?
@51: if only it were!
I used to think that most of the ESL professionals in Korea were self-important weenies, boy was I wrong. The fact that many of you feel like you are lynch pins of Korean society is laughable. You guys are cast aside like used condoms and you don’t see it. When you have paid off your student loans and get your fill of frat-boy lifestyles, go get real jobs and start contributing to the tax base in a substantial sense. You guys live in a circle-jerk world of your own.
No, you don’t have to, but you would sound rude to Koreans and Korean-speaking foreigners. A foreigner wishing to communicate properly in Korean needs to internalize the social hierarchy that determines verb forms and other honorific/humble language.
…speaking of men who feel brutalized by Western Feminism…
There’s a curriculum? That must be nice. Most of my 6 years as a teacher, I was basically told to ‘wing it’. Now granted, I didn’t try to get my 14-year-olds to read Jane Eyre or anything, but if my students really wanted to discuss a topic that I felt was appropriate for their age level, I generally didn’t cower from the invitation — even if it did lead to some exposure to (*gasp*) ‘western’ ideas… When I actually had a curriculum though, I generally stuck to it (since even though the curriculum was dull as a wheel of cheese, they were tested on it.)
This guy is all over the place. He rails on Koreans and foreigners whichever his “beef of the day” entails.
For better of worse, culture is part of language learning. You don’t think Koreans who are teaching the Korean language abroad aren’t teaching their culture and values to those abroad?
“”But it’s not really in the language, it’s only in the language users.”
I think we essentially agree, save for the last sentence which is a distinction without a difference.”
I don’t think it is a distinction without a difference. The language user can express a thought in English, French, Korean, Swahili. He would still be trying to express the same thought, or are you suggesting that this is not possible?
I’m glad you brought up Wittgenstein. While it may be true that the utterances I make do not provoke the same “pictures” in the mind of the listener, this is in essence as much true when talking to a Korean versus an American, as it is when talking to a Kiwi versus an American or talking to my mum versus talking to my friends.
Ironically, it may be the words that we are using that are leading to our misunderstanding. Somewhere along the line we’ve both learnt English and we both use it correctly, but we disagree about what it means. Translate the whole thing into Korean and we’d still be having the same discussion.
See, I still disagree with this below, despite your clarification that you mean it in the context of Wittgenstein.
“…he doesn’t understand the essential point that like all languages, English is embedded with its own values, concepts, ideas and unique worldview. Indeed, the main reason why many Koreans can’t speak English decently after long, hard years of study is because they try to speak it from a strictly Korean point-of-view. If people want to learn English, it’s all or nothing”
What are those values, concepts and unique worldview? Can you put your finger on them for me? (Maybe you admit I shouldn’t get too hung up on the word “unique”?) I can teach English in a perfectly sexist way if I wish. Analyse the following sentences EBS-style for parts of speech.
“A woman’s place is in the home. Women should not get jobs in industry and they should leave decision making up to men wherever possible.”
As for bumfromkorea;
“A Korean learning about English family titles (”mom”,”dad”,”aunt”,”uncle”) would also be learning about the LACK of family hierarchy that is very different from the Korean culture.”
If I based an entire English course on watching re-runs of the Godfather would I still somehow be forced to de-emphasize family hierarchy and family values? Certainly the Corleone’s have a different family structure to your average Korean, but its also vastly different from my family structure. We still both use English to express those thoughts. It’s still English.
I can assure you that I have the concept of a “younger brother”, without necessarily having a single word for it.
THE concept? Family relationships and roles vary across cultures. There is no single universal concept of “younger brother.” Older-younger sibling relationships are different between Korea and North America. Most young Chinese do not have siblings period although they also use family terms with unrelated people.
Essential to mastery of a language is to understand and appreciate that language for what it is, rather than searching for equivalents in one’s native language. As an international language and a vernacular language of several countries, English is far less culture-bound than Korean, but it is not culturally neutral.
#50, 57: Sperwer, I blame the marketeers, media and cultural elite for going batty with the English loan words here in Korea. If you are marketeer who lacks a creative idea for an ad campaign, for instance, it is easier to just toss in some English words into your ad to give the appearance of modernity and glamour. But it’s simply gotten out of control here — imagine if French words comprised 20% of American advertising campaigns. Absurd, right? The English language is clearly colonizing the Korean language and the elite here are doing it to the masses.
#61: Eujin, as soon as I step into a classroom here in Korea and say to my students, “What’s up?” I have flipped the script on the standard teacher-student paradigm here in Korea. My very presence and style of communication as a native English speaker from Western country is a cultural value. I expect critical debate and discussion, I encourage non-hierarchical forms of interaction between me and the students, I expect directness and clear yes-or-no answers and so on and so forth. These are all my biases as a native English speaker and they are very different from your average Korean teacher. I know because my former students had told me this repeatedly. You seem to be arguing from some sort of grammar-translation position which as many have argued is the primary problem with the way ESL is taught here in Korea by most Korean teachers.
#47: Between all the grammar mistakes, typos and cliches, the guy does not have sufficient command of English to be pulling a real salary teaching it to others.
Rather than testing tears, I suggest Koreans simply hire qualified teachers here. A teacher who has invested the time and money to get certified has demonstrated sufficient dedication to the profession of teaching in my opinion.
Personally, I think the powers-that-be here know this all too well but are too half-assed to change the situation for whatever reason, and so dolts like the writer under discussion continue to find their way into classrooms here.
#62: Sonagi is absolutely correct. As any student of semiotics knows, words have both denotative and connotative meanings. The word dog/gae may in the broadest sense denote a furry, 4-legged canine mammal in both English and Korean, but at the connotative level culture enters the picture in a profound way: In America, for instance, dog generally connotes “friendly pet for humans” while traditionally in Korea it connoted a tasty delicacy and important source of protein enhancing male virility. Obviously Westernization had muddied this picture and now gae can also signify pet for many here in Korea. In any case, we must recognize both the denotative and connotative meanings of words in order to understand how they function within their more general cultural context. Simple grammar translation doesn’t cut it.
He writes: “Mr. President, my tears and your legacy are inexorably linked.”
Rahaha…not just the utter bull s*&te but I think he needs to inexplore his vocabulary.
That’s some theory of agency that you have there, King. Does the English language put its trousers on one or two legs at a time?
“Korea is a religious society. They are mostly Buddhist, Christian, and Catholic. Foreigners who want a pulpit to rant their Americanized Secular Atheism do not belong here.”
The split between secular and religious is fairly even approx 50/50; and the religious among them are split fairly evenly between buddhist and christian albeit christians appear to be getting ahead(it looks like christianty is getting ahead now.
Oh, and I just love this “are you a catholic, no I’m a christian thing?” very much evidenced in the comment above.
“Korea is a religious society. They are mostly Buddhist, Christian, and Catholic. Foreigners who want a pulpit to rant their Americanized Secular Atheism do not belong here.”
The split between secular and religious is fairly even approx 50/50; and the religious among them are split fairly evenly between buddhist and christian albeit christians appear to be getting ahead(it looks like christianty is getting ahead now.
Oh, and I just love this “are you a catholic, no I’m a christian”, thing? very much evidenced in the comment above.
#66: You are a lawyer, are you not? I have proposed an argument, and unless you have a counterargument that disproves mine in a convincing manner, you have no case to stand on. I’m no lawyer, but snarkines is not an argument as far as I’m concerned.
On a more general level, if you’re going to start talking about agency, I suggest you read some Foucault and then reexamine your rather cavalier and retrograde assumptions.
#52,
Yes, although English is used at times perpetuate the class division that exists within Korean society, to label it as ‘imperialist’ seems incorrect for the reason that you pointed out.
I was trained as a lawyer and practiced in the US and here for some time, until I tired of being the cigar store white man/white house nigger that is the only status permitted to foreign lawyers here and, like Bartleby, decided I preferred not to.
Interestingly, I was Foucault’s teaching assistant for a year during one of his sojourns in the US; so I’m not impressed by the allusion. If you have any argument to make based on his work, please knock yourself out.
If it’s along the lines of your claim that the English language is capable of acting as an agent and colonizing anything, I suggest you go back and reread Ludwig, Russell, Austin, et al. so that you can be free at last, brother.
As if I wasn’t disturbed enough by the first diatribe posted by Mr Schertzer, I had to read the second posted in #47. That is some scary sh!t! He is obviously suffering from some sort of mental illness.
If you check the comments on the Times website, there are some pretty creepy quotes that the guy has posted at PusanWeb as well.
#74: Actually, I read Austin with John Searle, his former student, in a Philosophy of Language class at UCB, but I think it should be clear that I am not an analytic philosopher.
You still have not proposed a counterargument, and I’m not sure what part of “marketeers, the media and cultural elite” you do not understand. That seems pretty specific to me.
I personally think you just have a bee in your bonnet about me for some perverse reason and don’t actually care about these issues as much as you pretend, or else you would actually stick to discussing the issues.
For now, I will just follow the Sperwer method of snide debate: You don’t actually think the legal sector here is some sort of slave-based plantation system do you?
The “marketers, media and cultural elite” to which you have made reference you have identified as Korean. Yet you persist in attributing colonialism to the English language itself. The use of the English language by indigenous elites may be exploitative (it certainly is often comical or offensive; I probably would have found a lot of French usage after 1066 offensive, except that I understand my own ancestry is in part Norman); but it isn’t “colonialist”, either as the product of a colonizing power or local collaborationists. Your use of the term is at best incoherent, and at worst a gross distortion of what’s actually going on perpetrated through the deployment of a bit of ideological jargon that seems designed more to elicit nods of approval from the like-minded than to illuminate social reality.
Re the others:
1. I find your persistent insertion of yourself into discussions here annoying, especially combined with your own penchant for spouting muddled lefty cant. You often don’t make arguments, just pronouncements. While usually more interesting than Goose Boy’s dicta ex
cathedrahan, they aren’t necessarily more deserving of deliberate counterargument2. No.
Tell me Baeksu, when there was already a shortage a year ago, then add the new visa regulations, then add extra certification, where does that leave Korea? I understand that there are probably some leaders who understand the situation. Do you honestly think they will come out and try to advance this sort of legislation? Mothers can vote here right? Who is going to be the one to tell these women that their child just doesn’t fit into the new English program?
I don’t know. If I have a choice of going back to school to get certified and going on for my masters, getting a real job with decent pay and not having to introduce these kids to the concept of no and stop, tough choice.
Let’s not forget the pragmatic viewpoint. It’s not like the business ain’t making money now.
I also got the skeevy chills reading that guys letter to the president. LMB might just have to rethink everything now.
I’ll make sure Mrs. Linkd, E7 visa-holding International Marketing Manager 차장, reads that one.
English teachers: will they never stop causing the rest of us foreign residents intense embarrassment?
#65. Sonagi
“THE concept? Family relationships and roles vary across cultures. There is no single universal concept of “younger brother.”…Most young Chinese do not have siblings period although they also use family terms with unrelated people.”
I chatted to a Chinese colleague about this at lunch today. Although he would refer to both his younger sister and an unrelated younger friend as “meimei”, he felt that Chinese people still understand that their “relationship” to these two people is different. He was also at a bit of a loss to say what word he would use for “younger female friend not my parents daughter” as he said “xiaojie” has come to represent something more like our maths whiz friend.
And I dare say he hasn’t learnt to distinguish them by studying English. Somehow the concept is there even if the language doesn’t reflect that.
I still maintain you can teach English with completely different cultural contexts and thus the cultural baggage must at some level be divorced (or divorceable) from the language. I perhaps can’t take the “me-ness” out of my teaching but it isn’t there in the language I’m trying to teach (I’m not trying to teach English by the way). I can start a class with “what’s up?” or I can start a class with “you may be seated”. It’s still English.
This must be at least the 80th post so I’ll stop now as I have work to do. I’d like to point out that I had no part in provoking the spat between Sperwer and King Baeksu.
One last thought, I have in the past met people who claim to be native speakers of Esperanto. Their parents taught it to them when they were children and they learnt it “as children do”. Now presumably whatever cultural baggage they carry with them is inherited from their parents native tongues and the cultures that they grew up in, not from Eastern Poland ca. 1880. A “hundo” is to them whatever their native culture suggests it is.
Surely the culture and the language are seperable? A dog by any other name would taste as sweet.
#77: It is obvious that you would rather obfuscate the processes of globalization and its effects in Korea — linguistic, cultural and otherwise — because you yourself a part of that very process. The English language has a certain cultural prestige here and is often wielded by local elites to infect and yes colonize the Korean language. When we say that a language has a certain cultural prestige, there is an implicit power relation at stake. Do you see people here in the streets wearing T-shirts written in Han’gul? No you don’t, because they’re all in English. Why is that? Because English is often seen to have a superior status here — more “modern,” more “fashionable,” more “chic” — than Korean in many local contexts. Where does such a mentality derive from? It derives from the forces of globalization — in the sense of it being an Anglo-American-inspired model of neoliberal corporate capitalism — which is itself a form of imperialism that is taking over the planet, and yes, language is just one of many weapons deployed in that process.
I’ve read many of your comments here on this blog and it is obvious that that condescension you have for Korea is even greater than that that you have for me. I wonder why are you even here. Oh wait, I already answered that question in the previous paragraph, didn’t I?
#78: Maddlew, I have argued many times, including on national Korean TV, that English should be an elective not a requirement here. A majority of Koreans seem to agree. If the number of Koreans studying English here halved overnight, the problem of supply of qualified native ESL teachers would come much closer to being solved. For some reason, however, the government and corporations here insist on forcing people to study English, despite the fact that a majority have no genuine need or desire to do so.
obfuscation, eh. You mean your ascription of active agency to abstractions, your misuse of the term “colonialism, your constant shifting of the terms of debate (e.g., colonialism to globalization) and elision of the two? It’s obvious you’ve sucked up way too much of the soma to ever recover, so adios.
#84: Main Entry: col·o·nize
Pronunciation: \ˈkä-lə-ˌnīz\
Function: verb
3: to infiltrate with usually subversive militants for propaganda and strategy reasons
*******
Sperwer, you often start out strong, but generally speaking you rarely seem able to close the deal.
In any case, just because 21st-century postmodern imperialism operates under very different forms than in the classic 19th century model (see Hardt & Negri, for example) does not mean that it is not imperialism.
Adios to you, too.
I’m sure we’re all glad that’s over.
OK, and be sure to look both ways so you don’t get run down by any stray unicorns
It becomes ever more clear why you and Carr seem to be two peas in a pod.
In the future, before lecturing someone on holding fantasies, why not actually learn Korean before discoursing on the subject as you have attempted to do here?
Pretty fantastical if you ask me.
The good news is, I learned a new word.
obfuscate
1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.
I’m going to use this word tomorrow to my thesis adviser. “You are NOT helping, Beth. You’re obfuscating the whole process!”
“I was Foucault’s teaching assistant for a year during one of his sojourns in the US”
“I read Austin with John Searle, his former student, in a Philosophy of Language class at UCB”
Oh Yeah?! Well I… um… I got my books signed by Peter Singer and John Rawls! So… Ha!
#89: Peter Singer is cool. My old roommate in Melbourne dates and now lives with one of his daughters, who is also very cool and researches Aboriginal languages and communities. I believe his family made a killing in the coffee trade in Melbourne, providing a nice cushion for the important work he has subsequently done.
Gravatar!
EMPIRE explicitly states throughout that the new economic order is NOT imperialism. From page 12:
Not that I would recommend the book at all. Bad history, dull jargon, a lot of reheated Marx for the information age.
oh yeah? well my uncle used to go to church with Avril Lavigne!
King Poseur is right. Just this morning, my 7-year old Korean nephew woke up and immediately searched for a hangul t-shirt to put on before he went to hagwon. Unfortunately for him, a foot soldier of the Elitist Linguistic Colonization Corps showed up and brutally forced a Spiderman t-shirt over his head at gunpoint.
Don’t get me wrong, that kid loves Spiderman more than kimchi. But his affection was born of a swift kick from a jack-booted cultural thug, shoving that cartoon character down his poor, naive, innocent throat. Had it not been for that boot and that thug, perhaps he would be feeling the sweet rub of a cotton t-shirt against his skin bearing the picture of a purely Korean superhero, rather than a perverted, subversive creation of Stan Lee. And then, only then would that little boy be free.
Would you care to elaborate on how much responsibility you believe the Korean “masses” bear for their consumption of all things English? Or for that matter, describe their culpability in driving the success of globalization in Korea by devouring the fruits of the Great Satan?
Is your opinion of the Korean masses so low that you believe them incapable of resisting the great cabal of cultural imperialists? Are the lowly masses just empty vessels, filled with western crap on a daily basis without their consent and against their will, like dead drones invaded by a body snatcher? Are they just unaware of the inherently evil nature of a Big Mac and a pair of Nikes, or simply too stupid to recognize it when they see it?
Can you let us know just how many cardboard cutouts of George W Bush need to be jizzed on via giant zucchini before the Korean people wake up from their collective zombified state of cultural enslavement?
How many ejaculations will it take before they realize that they are not in fact exercising their own free will as they seem to believe, but are in fact the helpless victims of the linguistic colonizers, the cultural imperialists, the Engrish t-shirt Gestapo, and the all-powerful purveyors and enforcers of chic, modern, fashionable, and trendy that patrol the streets of Seoul gunning down all who refuse to fall in line?
Is it really Sperwer who is condescending towards Koreans? Isn’t your portrait of the Korean public as thoughtless, powerless, clueless, ignorant victims rather than individuals exercising free will and rational choice the precise definition of condescension?
#91: Well, yes, they clearly state that the old form of imperialism which was based on nation-states projecting their sovereignty outwards across the planet is over. The new form of Empire they describe is deterritorialized and transnational, and yet they often compare it to the Roman Empire in terms of how it opertates. Thus they write: “The distinct national colors of the imperialist map of the world have merged and blended in the imperial global rainbow.”
#93: “How many ejaculations will it take before they realize that they are not in fact exercising their own free will as they seem to believe, but are in fact the helpless victims of the linguistic colonizers, the cultural imperialists…”
Actually, in my experience about half of Koreans studying English do not do so out of their own free will, but because they are forced to do so either by the state or the economic regime presently in place here. Many of them hate English passionately but are forced to study it nonetheless. That is certainly not my definition of free will.
Now, why don’t you get your facts straight about the zucchini performance-art piece? I was not the one who did it so your repeated rantings about it make no sense at all. I suspect that you are somebody’s sock, but really don’t care anymore so rant anyway because as far as I’m concerned trolls are a simply waste of time.
Annyong!
Korean kids are required to take the classes in elementary, middle, and high school, and that requirement is fully supported by…guess who? The lowly masses! So much so that the mass of Korean parents don’t believe it enough of a requirement so they cart the kiddies off to more English classes on their own dime. A lot easier to blame the “state” and “economic regime” than it is your average everyday Korean parent though, innit?
Doesn’t exactly fit the paradigm of a government fist and capitalist pigs hammering at the masses if you admit that the masses not only approve of and consent to English education, but demand it and seek more of it through private channels because the state can’t meet the demand.
Are you really so blinded by your colonial/imperial fantasies that you actually believe that someone doing something they dislike is the same as being forced?
When did I say you were responsible for the Zucchinipalooza? You invited your pal to do it instead while you sat offstage stirring the yogurt. If Ivy’s “art” isn’t something you feel comfortable being associated with, you wouldn’t have invited him to be a part of your dog-and-pony show in the first place.
You reap the rewards of the media attention and tv appearances, so nut up and deal with the criticisms instead of crying about imaginary socks. Funny how you can spout off for days about linguistic colonialism and cultural imperialism, and then when someone challenges you to back it up, you tuck tail and whine about trolls to avoid answering.
“I suspect that you are somebody’s sock, but really don’t care anymore so rant anyway because as far as I’m concerned trolls are a simply waste of time.”
Whose sock could iheartblueballs possibly be? KB, IHBB is a MH fixture. About the zucchini performance art, you didn’t really answer these questions:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ent-120151
#96: As this thread nears 100 comments, I have answered every question put forth to me in it and answered not with the hostility that you display, but with honest attempts at well-reasoned arguments. They may not be perfect because I am still thinking through these issues myself, but they are honest attempts at public discourse revolving around knotty but nevertheless important issues. So I really do object to your calling me a coward, and if you’re so brave let’s hear what your real name is and even post a picture if you like, OK? Every comment I leave here I do under my own real identity and I stand behind them fully and accept all responsibility for them. Please tell me how that is cowardly.
We all know the main reason why Korean middle-school and high-school kids are studying English are so hard – in order to get into a good university by during well on the entrance exams. And we all know why they continue to study it in university — because if it is not required of all students (as it was at my last university), then it is because they know that they have to get a good TOEIC score if they want to get into a good company here. So I really don’t see how you can argue in good faith that there is no element of necessity or compulsion involved here.
So I remain unconvinced by your assertion that all Koreans freely choose to study English, and there is much documentary and statistical evidence to prove otherwise. In two years at Hongik University, for instance, I taught 8 required Freshman English classes, and conservatively speaking, half of them told me that honestly speaking they did not like English and would rather not have to study it. (On the other hand, I can count on one hand the number of students who were actual English majors in the combined 18 classes I taught during those 2 years.) So please show me your facts if you wish to argue otherwise, because while I’m willing to keep an open mind on this matter, emotional rhetoric will really not do anything at all to change it.
#97: Zane Ivy did it. It is clearly stated in the JoongAng Daily article that was the subject of the original post last year, and which is why IHBB mentions his name in comment #96. I can’t see how it can be any more clear. If people can’t be bothered to read the article that is the topic of the original post, why is that my responsibility?
and 100 it is!
If I may step in for a moment.
I believe what user-81 wants to know is:
1. Was it your idea and Mr. Ivy just carried it out?
or
2. Was it entirely Mr. Ivy’s idea?
and if so
3. Were you aware in advance of what he was going to do?
and if so
4. Did you approve or disapprove of it?
LOL
E.g. (leaving aside all the petty ad hominem shit):
which is a catechism answer, not an argument. let alone the sort of historical demonstration that is called for
I propose we take up a collection so the boy can outfit himself with the gold lame suit and blue suede shoes befitting his royal stature manque. I assume he already has the gut.
#101: It was Ivy’s idea but I did know about it and approve of it. And so? It was an artistic critique of Bush’s global policies, hardly a controversial stance considering his abysmal approval ratings both in the US and around the world.
#102: You are hardly one to talk considering your general tendency to avoid making well-formed arguments as is quite apparent in this very thread. Snark seems to be your general m.o. and actually I did clarify the example you give above. And you STILL have not offered any sort of counterargument disproving my original thesis. More to the point, most people in this thread seem agree with what I said about the writer of the article that is the subject of this post (and vice versa since I agree with most commenters here as well), and I think I made a pretty solid argument about the faultiness of his reasoning. Have you?
Personally I don’t really care either way. I was just trying to shed some light on what I thought user-81 was getting at.
I will say this though: When you showed up here a few months ago I thought you came across as a dick, but since then you’ve brought some interesting thoughts to the table.
Your anecdote is a perfect example of how culture and language use are intertwined. Your Chinese friend knows that the two “meimeis” are not the same. What he does not believe, like Koreans and Japanese, is that a younger unrelated person is a friend of equal stature. I recall speaking with an adult Korean about another Korean a few years younger. I referred to the Korean as a friend and was promptly corrected, “Oh, no, she’s not my friend. She’s younger than me.” Some Koreans very fluent in English and having spent time with English speakers will use the word “friend” to describe close acquaintances who are a few years younger or older.
Native speakers of Esperanto? Does this mean they did not learn the vernacular language of the country of residence until they started school? English is a vernacular language of India and Singapore, but those Englishes contain vocabulary and the inclusion of words from local languages to reflect the need to communicate cultural concepts.
One can divorce language from culture, but how much depends on the language. As I stated in an earlier comment, as an international language and vernacular language of many countries, English is far less culture-bound than Korean. It is interesting that you are using mostly English and the invented language of Esperanto as your examples. Do you speak Korean, Eujin? Do you think a foreigner could become proficient in Korean without understanding and absorbing some of the values of the culture?
#104: When I first came here a few months ago I was getting piled on left and right by people like Carr, The Big Chi and Sperwer (each with their own personal agendas), and as can be seen in the recent case of Metro it’s sometimes tough to deal with a situation when you’re being attacked on 4 different fronts simultaneously. At this point, however, I can see more clearly where most people on this blog are coming from so I’m able to keep a cooler head than I was at the start.
You must admit, though, that this blog can get pretty nasty at times, and that ultimately it is not in the best interests of productive debate.
“…this blog can get pretty nasty at times…”
Ya think?
Well, no, because on the subject of the writer of the article in question, I generally agree with your observations on the relationship of language and culture/values, so (as you might have noticed had you actually been paying attention to anything besides the noises in your head) I never said anything about that, but instead pointed out that your claims regarding the colonialist character of English language use in Korea is just twaddle. BTW, since you are the one who propounded that English is somehow magically “colonizing” Korea, it’s you who have the burden of proof. Pending your production of a viable demonstration of that proposition that would merit a more sustained response, I think it’s sufficient to point out the obvious intellectual fetishes in your mindless catechetical recitation of neo-Marxizt drivel.
violins
When I first came here a few months ago I was getting piled on left and right by people like Carr, The Big Chi and Sperwer (each with their own personal agendas), and as can be seen in the recent case of Metro it’s sometimes tough to deal with a situation when you’re being attacked on 4 different fronts simultaneously
Someone please pass round the kleenex while this agenda-less whinger plays the self-proclaimed victim card.
bathetic
I really don’t see why it’s been so chippy in here lately. I would have thought the topics recently to be less lizard brain tickling.
Baeksu, you have obviously been more deeply immersed and certainly have dialed in the language better than I. I agree with your prescription but am a bit bewildered that you believe it to be achievable or that parents are in favor of it.
You could maybe get the prayer answered by the government although I would have thought it a death sentence for any politician supporting it. How are you gonna change big businesses desire for English speakers? How you gonna reverse recent desires of many of the Universities here towards English proficiency and courses taught in English? These programs were just put into place in the last couple of years. They think it will help them get globally ranked. You think the Chaebols will just cease their demand? You think the Universities will cave to the government? That sure hasn’t been going well on other issues lately.
You say the students don’t want to learn English. I agree but what does that have to do with it? Once again, who’s gonna be the one to tell a specific parent that they will have to resign themselves to having a child that isn’t going to compete for the top prizes. I have yet to meet a parent who would recieve that news with relief or belief.
And my University students are all voluntary. They enjoy learning English and have decided on their own that it’s to their benefit. Granted, all the men have already served in the military and so are more dedicated and responsive, polite and attentive, but they also come in with realistic views of their future.
I agree that it should be done but I don’t see how.
#108: “you are the one who propounded that English is somehow magically “colonizing” Korea.”
No, I didn’t say Korea, I said the Korean language. I was defending the Korean language and arguing that it should be more creative in coming up with its own neologisms instead of lazily importing English loan words.
Sperwer, I must say that the way in which you have hijacked this thread merely because you dislike my personal politics is rather selfish and lame on your part. I didn’t even mention my own politics in this thread until you started stirring the pot, and I believe I have given countless examples of how the English language is having an undue influence on the Korean language, giving numerous examples of words and the forces in Korean society that are responsible for this phenomenon.
That said, if you want to blame me for your inability to make an argument here, that’s your choice, but the only thing I can see you achieving at this point is impressing upon many readers here that you have some irrational axe to grind against me that is frankly getting rather tedious and boring.
Didn’t you see what Linkd said in #86? No one else cares at this point.
Can we just move along now?
#110: Maddlew, well, for a start they can make Chinese an alternate required second-language choice, since that would probably be more useful and relevant in the long-run for many Koreans seeking to work in the business realm in this part of the world. I understand that English is important and necessary for many Koreans but certainly not for all, and the way in which English has become some sort of arbitrary benchmark used by companies and the government here is actually a waste of time and resources for many other Koreans. What I am arguing is that learning a foreign language should be required here, but people should at least be able to have a choice in the matter. Is that so controversial?
That’s a good point! It’d be alot easier and less expensive.
I still don’t see them reversing their field. I haven’t noticed that being something they normally enjoy doing here. There’d be some teeth gnashing. Especially after they built all those English Villages.
The relationship with China is hard to get a handle on. I get kinda ambivalent readings.
Hey, some learn Japanese so, who knows?
In the U.S, my high school foreign language choices were either Spanish or Spanish, as it is in a good portion of smaller and rural schools. Think I liked being forced to learn it? All I can say, is that on the world stage, it has a bigger presence than French and German, and therefore more business opportunities are available to me. But how I wanted to have the opportunity to learn Chinese instead.
Education isn’t perfect. What’s in vogue now, may not be in 10-20 years time. I can’t believe all the time and effort I wasted learning cursive, and then having to teach it to kids as thrilled to learn it as I was. In today’s type/print-driven world it is absolutely useless. I still don’t know why doctors insist on scribbling instead of using print. And why didn’t my school invest more in the “coming thing” that was the pc revolution and force learning computer languages on us. That really would have paid off in the long run.
Right now, there is too much invested in learning English on this peninsula to cut it by half. I doubt that the new President, or anyone here for that matter, would like having thousands of jobless Korean English teachers and hagwon owners out on the street.
Should new avenues be pursued? Absolutely. The problem is just who can see into the future clearly enough to decipher the jumbled road map of global warming, pollution, increasing human population, food shortages, water shortages, fossil fuel shortages, shrinking fish and seafood populations, overcrowding, and other maladies plaguing the future of humankind, err. . . no, mankind (I don’t want to be accused of advocating the equality of women here) and set the proper course for our future generations to prosper on.
Too bad the great grandmaster, Robert A. Heinlein, is no longer among the living to guide us with his fairly accurate future histories novels. Grok?
Learning chinese is pointless. There’s no economic value to learning it.
English has become an international language.
King Baeksu you are starting to sound like another liberal.
Hey! Is this “tomely” or what?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....22695.html
The importing of English words or certain concepts from the US is not out of laziness its because of the fact that independent thought is not cultivated here.
Could you provide a link to some of that statistical and documentary evidence? Heck, even a citation would be cool… I have lots of access to libraries. Anytime I try to Google(tm) ‘koreans hate english’, I end up being directed to a bunch of unrelated pages. I realize that you’ve probably got better things to do than to provide links to back up your assertions, but for the intellectually lazy amongst us, it tends to be a nice gesture.
Your anecdotal evidence is nice, but there’s so very little context — I don’t know, for instance, what school you teach at, whether that school caters to the academic and social elites, or whether or not your school is even known for its English program. I also don’t know what your students’ past experiences with English have been. Plus (and no offense intended), I don’t even know if you’re any good at teaching, or if the material being taught is any good — your students’ disengagement may not be entirely the language’s fault.
But anyhow, amongst all this dislike for the English language Korean people (I’m sure) profess loudly and clearly, I suppose we should look for some sort of reason why it sticks around (if, after all, you’re saying that IHBB’s visions of jack-booted linguistic colonizers are false)… Maybe it’s something in the water.
Oh doh… I just realized that I do know where you teach…. Hongik University. I still don’t know much about the school, but I probably should have read a bit more closely. Sorry.
Baeksu and sperwer should just get a room and honestly be done with it.
This Steve idiot obviously has no idea what he’s talking about. You can’t gain a deep understanding of a language without learning the cultural markers and referral points. He should just stick to singing ABC’s and repeating “Hi, how are you? I’m fine thank you and you?” in the public school system, since this is obviously the limit of his experience as a ‘teacha’.
Anyway, say what you will about Steve Schertzer; at least he’s not a homeless Nazi like somebody around here.
#118: Zonath, here’s a link to the SBS doco on the local ESL education system that I was interviewed for last year:
http://wizard2.sbs.co.kr/resou.....w_list.jsp
It interviewed all sorts of cultural experts and ordinary people criticizing the “English frenzy” here. What’s interesting is that it seems to be the only episode on the site that you can’t download or view now — all the other ones are still available. A conspiracy-minded person might have several different theories as to why it’s been taken off the site.
I got good student evals at Hongik, got along well with my students and am a certified teacher trained at Westminster College in London. Many of them just didn’t like English and I kind of felt sorry for them. There was one 27-year-old female art student during my last semester who hated English and was very poor at it, but had to take Freshman English to graduate. (I believe it was her second to last semester.) Whenever it was her turn to speak in class it was obviously traumatic for her. Her real grade was a borderline F but I felt so bad for her that I gave her a C- in the end.
Somewhat ironically, she was a fine-art teacher herself at a hagwon in the Hongik area.
#122 – That’s nice… I was looking more for the ’statistical and documentary evidence’ though… Not just interviews with a number of people who have a bone to pick over English education in Korea. I figured that since you were obviously more acquainted with the sources, you could lend a hand. No problem, though… I’ll take your word for it that there’s ample statistical and documentary evidence.
Re 101, 103, and 104: Thank you, Iceberg. That is exactly what I was getting at.
Now it is clear that King Baeksu invited Zane Ivy to the lecture, knowing in advance and approving in advance the lewd zucchini-ejaculation performance art. Whether it was brilliant satire or an offensive display, he partly owns it.
Come now, KB. You know it was not his political stance that was controversial.
#124: A documentary is not documentary evidence? OK. I suggest you search in Korean as this kind of hard data may not be eagerly advertised to the outside world. As for me, I’ve taught in 5 universities here and several large companies over the years so my views come from my experiences doing that, as well as meeting literally thousands of ordinary Koreans who very clearly do not use English in their everyday life and probably never will. I’d like to do further research for you but I’ve spent so much time on this thread already that I think it’s time for me to move on.
#124: User-81 it was never controversial amongst the students who saw it nor in the view of the professor who invited me and enjoyed the performance (which only used yogurt to simulate ejaculation in case that was not clear).
But you know what, fuck you because like Sperwer people like you make me pretty tired as well. I can’t believe how many fucking times I’ve had to post about this damn performance art piece that I didn’t even do. Don’t you have better things to do with your life than obsess over such trivial matters? You’ve got people like Stacked making obviously racist comments above and this is all you can talk about? Get a life why don’t you?
I’ve come to conclude that the pleasures of this blog are small compared to the spitefulness and irritation that often infect this blog. I’m done.
Not so much. I mean, I might qualify some of Michael Moore’s films as ‘documentaries’, but I certainly wouldn’t rely on them to form a balanced picture of the issue at-hand. And since you said that such evidence was ‘ample’, I assumed that there must be more than one television ‘documentary’ that may have been made by a producer with a very specific agenda.
Absolutely… I’m not expecting you to do any research for me. I was just wondering if you had done any research to begin with before claiming the support of ‘ample statistical and documentary evidence’, rather than your own anecdotal evidence. Anyhow, bon chance with the moving on bit.
#126:
Never controversial? The article you told me in November to read says that “the students in the class were stunned” and that “some turned away.” You had to wait until “the mood had calmed down.”
All I did was ask some questions. I don’t think I was rude and I didn’t join in any “pile on.” But if that’s the way it is.
You didn’t do it, but you arranged it. And I wouldn’t have asked about it if you didn’t repeatedly vacillate between praising it and disowning responsibility for it.
Who has time to point out every racist comment at MH? It would be easier to list who’s not being racist.
I usually write no more than about ten comments per week on MH, versus your 10+ on this post alone.
Excellent. I will go down in the annals of MH as the one who vanquished King Baeksu.
BTW, fuck you too. Like Iceberg, I think you have some interesting things to say, but your smugness and overall dickiness just doesn’t make it worth it anymore. Good riddance.
i just can’t figure out if king baeksu is a white nulji or a reincarnated shelton. either way, you’re one annoying chap.
I’m not interested in the least. I choose to post under a pseudonym for my own reasons, and I could care less what you or anyone else thinks about it. My words speak for themselves, and I don’t need an accompanying picture to validate them. If you can’t comprehend anonymity, perhaps you should retreat to the world of zines and their inherent purity of purpose.
You, on the other hand, deliberately put yourself in the public spotlight, and manipulate that publicity to sell books and sell yourself. And when people here see some of that publicity — involving yogurt and a vegetable cock — you should expect some questions about it. It’s relevant because it seems that you believe that “art” to be a legitimate form of conveying an argument, and it ties into the hysterical anti-globalization and irrational demonization of western culture and capitalism that permeates everything you write.
By the way, if you haven’t figured it out yet, the reason you’re being piled onto is due to your completely naive and ignorant understanding of English education in Korea, and what drives the industry.
It’s almost as if you have no idea that the Korean economy is dependent on exports, and that a good percentage of those exports are to English-speaking countries or those that use it as the language of business.
Or that one of the major initiatives of the last decade of the Korean government (elected freely by the masses) has been to transform the country into an international hub of everything, which requires a workforce and infrastructure with a high English proficiency.
Or that the widespread and widely accepted dream of the Korean masses is having a son or daughter get into an Ivy League school, and that happens to require fluency in English.
Not to mention the relentless drive by the public at large, the government, and corporations to bring every major, minor, and insignificant international sporting event, cultural celebration, film festival, feminist convention and knitting group meeting to Korea in the name of boosting its international reputation and nationalistic pride…and that all of those events require that same infrastructure of English proficiency.
Your argument is based on the fact that many Koreans dislike studying English, and that because they dislike it, their participation must be forced against their will by those pulling the levers of power. You even claim that a majority of Koreans don’t believe English should be required, and yet the continually booming English hagwon industry proves otherwise. If Koreans truly and actually disliked studying English and did not believe it useful, they would not be sending their 2-year olds to English kindergartens, or hiring whitey at $50/hr to chat with their high schooler, or spending a third of their income on English hagwons. It is not the state or the corporations forcing English upon the masses, it is the masses themselves that recognize its value in relation to the stated economic makeup and direction of the country.
When you prattle on about linguistic colonialism, forced education, and consistently pepper your posts with references to the state forcing this and corporations forcing that, it becomes clear that your real beef is not with mandatory English education, but with English education period in the context of the rapid westernization of Korea. You’re obsessed with criticizing the long arm of western culture no matter where it reaches, and English education just happens to be the easiest target in Korea.
So you dump the blame on the elites, the state, and the corporations because they’re all inherently evil as possessors of power, and yet you fail to comprehend the fact that it is the Korean masses themselves that are the biggest culprits of westernizing themselves and their country, as well as freely and consciously feeding the English frenzy that engulfs them and their all-consuming, zealous quest for power, resources, and status.
Koreans may dislike studying English, but you’re a fool if you don’t see that they’re desperately in love with the opportunities and possibilities it provides them.
And that’s the bottom line, cause iheart said so.
The last sentence sums it up nicely, that is the main reason why English is
studied as if it’s the last thing their gonna do.
Bones
Questions, yes. A pile-on about it in a discussion about the need — or lack thereof — to learn English in Korea? No.
And if true, that’s a shame. Whether you liked the delivery or not, he was actually bringing something to the discussion.
god I’ve missed ihbb.
Too bad if KBS is gone, especially in light of Brendan Carr’s most recent blog post (which I thought was really interesting):
Carr is saying that lack of English in Korea is good for the Korean oligarchy, helps keep out the outside world and supports Korea’s old-world, 19th century mercantile mindset. Which is quite similar to what that EMPIRE book says (minus the Marxism and paranoid academic jargon).
“And if true, that’s a shame. Whether you liked the delivery or not, he was actually bringing something to the discussion.”
In the next paragraph after the one you quoted, I did say I think he has interesting things to say. But when you’re being civil and someone says “fuck you” to you, it overshadows the good things they have to say. However, maybe my gleeful “good riddance” was inappropriate.
I brought it up in reference to his repeated assertions that the English language and western culture in general were on the colonization and imperialism march in Korea. Given that the stated intent of the zucchini piece was a commentary on worldwide Americanization, and that it ties in directly with his comments in this thread, I think it was relevant to bring up the fact that he chose to educate people in such a ridiculous manner.
Now that things have settled down somewhat and this thread seems to be close to being confined to the archives, let me just answer Sonagi’s questions at #105
“Native speakers of Esperanto? Does this mean they did not learn the vernacular language of the country of residence until they started school?”
I suspect they learnt both the local vernacular and Esperanto from an early age. My point was, a person brought up bilingually in Korean and Esperanto, might think of the word “hundo” as meaning something different to someone who was brought up that way in say Argentina. They’d both be “native” speakers of Esperanto. I think it basically covers the same thing as your example about English in Singapore or India.
You would probably agree that the adoption of local terms would allow Koreans to learn English and use it in a Korean way, without necessarily having to assimilate some cultural ideas that are allegedly embedded in English. It would still be English, just like it is in India or Singapore. King Baeksu was saying that is impossible. If the Korean students became fluent at talking English to one another, but seemed to be using the word “friend” in what appeared to an American to be a slightly idiosyncratic way, one would have to conclude that they could speak English and speak it as well as anyone else.
“Do you think a foreigner could become proficient in Korean without understanding and absorbing some of the values of the culture?”
Yes. For example, I can imagine the following hypothetical situation. Imagine that some isolated tribe was discovered in the Amazon who had had no contact with the outside world for thousands of years, but, by some sheer fluke of human happenchance had developed a language that bore a striking resemblance to Korean, except that they did not have the concept of Jondaemal and talked to each other only in Banmal. The words were the same, the grammar the same, the pronounciation the same, they may even have invented a version of Hangul. The tribespeople may have no knowledge of Buddhism or Confucianism or what ddeokbokki was, but you could explain to them what those things were, and explain it to them in Korean.
Now one wouldn’t be able to say that such a tribeperson understood Korean people until they had had these things explained to them, but one would also be hard pressed to say they couldn’t speak Korean.
It may be an absurd hypothetical situation but it does show the logical distinction between language and culture.
“One can divorce language from culture, but how much depends on the language.”
I think if we change this slightly to “One can divorce language from culture, but how difficult it is depends on the language” then we basically agree. There’s no qualitative difference between English and Korean in that respect.
One wonders exactly how certain people are able to survive a normal life if commentary on this blog drives them to profanity.
the person calling themselves “king baeksu” is certainly a detriment to anyone wishing to learn American or Western culture through language–and must be regarded by the Koreans he meets as something unpleasant one might need to scrape off of one’s shoe…
YMMV; but the few interesting points this person makes are rather dramatically offset by the intellectual filth and evident contempt of all not “king baeksu”…
Saying “He is my senior” or “She is my junior” would elicit puzzled looks from anyone not familiar with Korean culture.
You can explain people, places, things, and ideas, but in order to speak Korean properly, one must understand and internalize Korean notions of formality and hierarchy. If a foreigner has to think consciously, “Okay, this person is a college student, so simply jondaemal without jonkyeongeo will do, then one hasn’t yet mastered Korean. I used to interpret for Korean parents at school conferences. At those conferences, I spoke to and about a) the teacher; b) the parent; and c) the student. My verb forms changed according to who I was speaking to and about. I could not do this successfully without internalizing Korean concepts of formality (familiar versus unfamilier) and hierarchy (age, position). When speaking Korean, especially when interpreting, I don’t have time to recall rules. I can speak Korean fluently only if I have internalized the logic behind using honorific and humble language.
A distinction with a difference. Let’s agree to disagree.
“Saying “He is my senior” or “She is my junior” would elicit puzzled looks from anyone not familiar with Korean culture.”
Unless they’re familiar with Japanese culture, Chinese culture, …
god damn this is entertainment at its finest!!!
If a foreigner has to think consciously, “Okay, this person is a college student, so simply jondaemal without jonkyeongeo will do”, then one hasn’t yet mastered Korean.
I understand what you mean, yet native speakers also choose how they will express themselves. When dealing with problems, for example, native speakers often consider what they will say (and not say) and how they will say it, even before the conversation starts. Of particular concern in this situation is the relative positions of the persons involved. And, as the conversation progresses, the process of consideration continues, and the form and content of their message evolves.
Some may do that unconsciously, yet those who do so consciously are arguably in better command. By ‘thinking out’ the conversation, I’d say they are likely to achieve their goals more often and with greater efficiency than are those who simply step in and have a crack at it. To my mind, that’s also mastery.
WTF did he just say? I just could not comprehend that….
From King Baeksu (republished with his permission):
Robert, I’ve decided to stop posting on the Hole and thrown away my password/ID. You are welcome to copy and paste this email itself into the “Stop Westernizing Korea” thread if you think it relevant.
User-81 flatters himself when he says he “personally vanquished me” from the Hole. I have just decided that I’ve been spending too much time here and the high number of trolls and disingenuous commenters on this blog increases the white noise to such a high level that after a while it becomes a waste of time dealing with all the extraneous BS at hand. I care about the ideas discussed in threads like this but I have other important work to attend to for now.
In any case, here is what I told User-81 last November on the thread he linked to himself:
“I did the lecture, Zane Ivy did the zucchini performance. I was the featured guest lecturer, and I was the one who invited Ivy to come along, ergo I’d say I was personally involved in the situation.”
But in the present thread he just keeps on pretending that it wasn’t clear what the context of the performance was after I had already explained it clearly, and keeps on asking questions about it. So after about the 4th or 5th time he brought it up, combined with IHBB’s parallel insistent harping on it, and combined with the fact that it had nothing to do with the present thread, yes I lost my patience with him but he is being entirely disingenuous to say that he was “merely being civil with me.” Is it civil to keep asking the same irrelevant question after it has been answered several times already and, I repeat, is irrelevant to the subject at hand? Instead, it sounds like rude trolling to me.
I also find Jtb-in-texas hypocritical and disingenuous when he makes personal insults about me (”something unpleasant one might need to scrape off of one’s shoe”). Practice what you preach buddy or else stop lecturing people about good manners. And remind me again what you actually had to say about the main topic of the thread itself?
Eujin, you have ignored the denotation/connotation distinction I outline above. I think your argument might make some sense at the denotative level of language but much less sense at the connotative level.
IHBB: “…yet you fail to comprehend the fact that it is the Korean masses themselves that are the biggest culprits of westernizing themselves and their country.
Really? Apparently IHBB has ignored the entire debate I had with Sperwer in this thread. And if Sperwer really cared about these issues he would question IHBB’s position as well because he’s actually taking the same position I was holding against Sperwer myself. But Sperwer would rather make assertions rather than arguments, it seems, and therefore doesn’t really care about this issue as much as he pretends.
It’s been fun engaging with commenters like Sonagi, Bumfromkorea, Linkd, Maddlew, Sanshinseon, Dogbert, Roboseyo, McNut and yes, Robert, too, so good luck to you all.
Huffy message board farewells always coincide with a commenter getting his ass handed to him. As a general rule, if you’re not capable of tuning out the white noise, or ignoring extraneous BS, or scanning past trolls, you’re really not cut out for interweb conversations in the first place. And given Baeksu’s stated disdain toward blogs as a medium, one wonders why he was here anyway.
I found it mildly amusing that he made repeated references to his TV appearances, lectures, newspaper interviews, and books sales to bolster his credibility and add weight to his opinions…and yet he seemed flabergasted and confused when anyone would reference the content of that publicity to challenge his views.
I imagine this blog will survive without his majesty, as it had before he graced us with his royal presence.
“User-81 flatters himself when he says he “personally vanquished me” from the Hole.”
I was not flattering myself. I was using hyperbole. My questions were not the cause of your meltdown.
“I have just decided that I’ve been spending too much time here and the high number of trolls and disingenuous commenters on this blog increases the white noise to such a high level that after a while it becomes a waste of time dealing with all the extraneous BS at hand. I care about the ideas discussed in threads like this but I have other important work to attend to for now.”
What a happy coincidence that your departure coincides with a sudden drop in extraneous BS. KB, you have some intelligent things to say that should be heard but you seem to go out of your way to be obnoxious as possible when you say it. It’s like you’re daring people to accept your ideas and if they don’t then you know they’re all un-hip a-holes.
“In any case, here is what I told User-81 last November on the thread he linked to himself:
“I did the lecture, Zane Ivy did the zucchini performance. I was the featured guest lecturer, and I was the one who invited Ivy to come along, ergo I’d say I was personally involved in the situation.”
But in the present thread he just keeps on pretending that it wasn’t clear what the context of the performance was after I had already explained it clearly, and keeps on asking questions about it.”
I am not pretending anything. Neither KB nor the article answered my questions: How much of the performance was KB’s idea or his blessing? And was he completely unaware of what Zane Ivy was going to do?
Iceberg obviously understood, rephrasing the questions: Was it KB’s idea and Mr. Ivy just carried it out? Was it entirely Mr. Ivy’s idea? Was KB aware in advance of what Zane Ivy was going to do?If so, did KB approve or disapprove of it?
The problem wasn’t my asking. The problem seems that KB is embarrassed by the performance. I was civil but persistent. I did not deserve “fuck you” from KB.
This is all I plan to say on the matter. Two meltdowns within a week and I don’t want to be a third.
#144
If your comment regards my post above, in simple terms I’m saying that, whether they are native or non-native speakers of a language, folks often think before they talk, and that doing so is arguably part of masterfully using language.
Well, I can’t say that I’m not sorry to see KB go. After all, his verbal sparring matches were pretty entertaining. I mean, sure, he was his own favorite ‘authority’ on anything he commented on, was a vainglorious self-promoter, and dropped more names than a clumsy vanity license plate salesman, but uhm…. where was I going with this one?
But anyhow, he has gone away from all the disingenuousness and contentiousness towards social groups that won’t be so much like that — the four or five people who show up for his book signings, for example… We’ll all remember how he puckishly promised to try to keep a cooler head (#106) to cheerfully quitting in the midst of a snit (#126), and in less than the course of 9 hours, no less.
Seriously, though… I’m sure we can all agree that despite the thin skin, KB could be entertaining at times. Godspeed, Mr. Baeksu.
From King Baeksu, again with permission:
Just a favor — do you think we might be able to drop discussion of the “zucchini incident”? Whatever needed to be said about it has almost certainly been said — probably ad nauseum — and I don’t see the need to keep bringing it up.
WTF, you’re letting the royal poseur manipulate you into acting as his merkin, now? Better get checked for stds when he’s done with you.
better to perform the role of a merkin than bring up the dreaded gherkin.
Obviously, even native speakers pause and think before they speak sometimes. “Stepping in and having a crack at it” is different than responding naturally and correctly using acquired language.
“User-81, why would I invite a journalist from a major daily newspaper to observe and report on the performance if I was embarrassed about it?”
I should have been more precise. It seems you’re embarrassed about the reaction to it even though you wouldn’t admit so.
“In the future, if you ask better questions you’ll getbetter answers.”
Better than “fuck you”? The problem is not with me, KB.
“And I’m not having a melt-down, I’m just really, really busy! Is that so hard to understand?”
Not hard to understand, but hard to believe that’s your reason, especially since you said you were leaving because of the spitefulness and irritation.
Please come back (really) when you can be civil.
“Just a favor — do you think we might be able to drop discussion of the “zucchini incident”? Whatever needed to be said about it has almost certainly been said — probably ad nauseum — and I don’t see the need to keep bringing it up.”
I respect that request, though if KB brings up my name shouldn’t I have a chance to reply? I don’t mean disrespect, but if you want this to go away it might be best to stop printing KB’s emails to you. I had said I wouldn’t write any more on this, but I didn’t realize KB would be speaking to us from the great beyond.
Apparently being done involves monitoring the thread, and continuing to respond via special email with extra permission sauce.
#155 – Aw, c’mon… with an ego like his, how could KB not strive to get the last word in?
I think KB should have the last word. But it should literally be just a single word. Here are some suggestions:
Victory!
Idiots.
A-holes.
iheartblueballs!
Rosebud.
I just clicked on the link in IHBB’s username. I’ve learned so many new things since I started reading and commenting at the MH.
#158: A friend of mine who spent a few years working in and around the Korean media used the term to refer to Korean reporters. He called them the Fluff Patrol based on their fawning interactions with celebrities, athletes, and politicians.
His favorite gag was carrying around a little bottle of lube and some Kleenex, and offering it to a Korean reporter if they said they had an interview with anyone famous. Needless to say, they never got the joke.
I know I am a bit late to the party, but I wrote a response to Schertzer’s piece here.
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