I did not think this would really be the case but it seems the Chinese guys in blue (see here) are actually Chinese Paramilitary and they will be coming to Seoul, with the Olympic torch, after all. Apparently even the chairman of the London 2012 Olympic games described these guys as “thugs”. Wonderful . . . welcome to Seoul then.
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76 Comments
deleted (troll)
Geez. I’d half expect that agit-prop was on the payroll of the Chinese Community Party… But I’m sure the CCP has better things to do than hire propagandists to comment on blog entries. After all, what kind of petty, two-bit government would do such a thing?
I think comment #1 puts to rest the myth that the Olympics have nothing to do with politics.
The Games are a coming out party for many of the nations that hold them and I for one hope that the politics of these games have the same kind of positive effects on China that the politics of the ‘88 games had on Korea.
Gotta love it how the Chinese are demanding that other countries stop the protesting where it is perfectly legal to protest.
Cliche, but if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Well, I’m proud to say that the CP have been banned from attending the torch in Australia, and also that our new PM has the balls to speak truth to power, in Mandarin no less:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/wor.....85559.html
agit-prop:
However “bankrupt” R.Elgin’s morals might be, and whatever other motives you might think he has for making his opinion known, one thing is certain: he comes from a society where he is able to form an informed opinion. He is able to disseminate information from wherever he wants, and ascribe whatever opinion he sees fit to that information.
You say, “learn the fact, r. elgin”. The irony is that Mr Elgin can learn the facts, but that you, if you’re in China, cannot.
Tell me agit-prop, does it concern you that your government blocks information from you? That you cannot vote or protest? Does western criticism of the regime that rules your country really upset you more than the things I just mentioned?
I wonder just how welcome the people of Seoul will be in welcoming their new Overlords marching down the street.
Some of the positive effects on Korea were visible before the Opening Ceremony: improved infrastructure, specifically subway expansion in Seoul, and the institution of democratic reforms, including the first genuinely democratic presidential election. Rather than opening up, China has become more controlling leading up to the Olympics. Like Korea, China has spent money sprucing up cities that will host events, landscaping downtown areas and major public parks. The Olympics marked the emergence of a modern democracy in Korea; in China, they have stimulated only cosmetic changes so far. It remains to be seen how demonstrations in Tibet and now Xinjiang will play out. My guess is that we will see more domestic and international demonstrations and incidents related to the Games, but once the flame is extinguished and the crowds have gone home, China will be its old self again.
Korea changed because enough Koreans were willing to take risks to push for change. In China, demonstrations remain localized and a national movement seems unlikely. Young, middle-class, and educated Chinese are nationalistic and defensive of the Chinese government in a way that their Korean peers were not back in the 80s.
I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
@#8
Hmm… but maybe influx of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people from all over the world for about a year may catalyze the civil initiatives you’re talking about. It would definitely make the country a lot more open than before - that may be just the thing it needs for making the change.
the best thing for china to come out of these olympics is an attempt at teaching the populace of Beijing against spitting on the streets and qeueing up properly.
I good read about the effects the Olympics had on Korea is the section of Donald Kirk’s book Korea Witness that discusses it. The US government put huge pressure Roh Tae-woo and actually threatened to have the Olympics removed from the country if democratic elections were not held.
In China’s case you are starting to see pressure put on China but it seems to be having the opposite effect as they turn spin the anti-Tibet protests into the foreigners hate our success narrative. I just wish somebody would protest over the human rights abuses against North Korean refugees in China which is just as or even more appalling as the crackdown on Tibet.
politics? nahh. it’s just how human beings get a long with each other. let the games begin! (what? already started? oh…)
Let those thugs come so I can egg them in the face.
#7
“Young, middle class, and educated Chinese are nationalistic and defensive of the Chinese government in a way that their Korean peers are not back in the 80s.”
Their Korean peers were not defensive of the government, but they were as nationalistic back in the 80s as the Chinese are now.
Dalai Lama has just arrived at Tokyo and gives a TV interview this afternoon.
@#14,
Yes, Koreans were nationalistic back in the 80s but not in the defend-the-motherland mode that young and educated Chinese are today.
#1,
Say what you will, rough-handing the torchbearers makes a farce of the relay and the Olympics.
As Sonagi was saying, China has become more closed in advance of the games. Sure, China had become slightly more open in recent years, but early this week it jailed several human rights activists. Try to spin it anyway you like, it is still a major setback.
The Chinese government needs to realize that economic development without human rights will only result in the exodus of the newly wealthy. Don’t believe me? I know several of the newly wealthy young Chinese…they all keep a homes in Canada or the US, which they use as a safety net. Few plan to remain in China past their 50th birthday.
Anyone want to get a pool started for when some krazy Chinese person will chuck their digits at a FILL IN THE BLANK embassy for the whole Tibet thing?
I say give it two more weeks…
As an American, I’ll say it’s kinda nice to have the world’s ire directed somewhere else for a change. Hey, if China keeps this sort of thing up and Obama makes it to the White House, there’s a decent chance the US could fly under the Outrage Radar for quite some time.
Probably not in Korea, though.
deleted (troll)
thats why you’re in Korea?
stfu with your bs.
Wow, agit-prop’s head is so full of lies.
He/She has no clue.
That’s where the Chinese government seems to be really successful- in pulling the wool over many of it’s people’s eyes!
@19
I have a question for you, agit-prop. I get a lot of my information on rights abuse issues from Amnesty International, Humans Rights Watch, Reporters Without Boarders, and a few other organizations. These groups, as I’m sure you know, are also critical of the USA for humans rights abuses, especially recently. My question is: are these groups only lying about China’s abuses, or do they lie about everybody? How about countries that aren’t really Eastern or Western, like Saudi Arabia? Are those lies too, or do they only lie about China?
So what else is a lie about China? How about the lethal crap coming out from your backwards middle kingdom? Poisoned pet food, poisoned toys for kids, filthy food, posionous medicines? is Tibet a lie? Is China’s disgusting support for North korea’s regime a lie? is sending NK refugees back to NK to a certain death a lie? is China’s support for a murderous regime in Burma a lie or is calling it a murderous regime the lie? How about China’s support for a murderous regime in Sudan? Or maybe the whole Darfour thing never happened? what’s a lie? And who should we believe? A communist regime or free media? Thats a whole lot of lying going on, and you sound like a lunatic screaming about conspiracies.
Face it. You country is HATED and REVILED not because of racism but because of clear violations of not only human rights and freedoms but simply for violations of what we percieve it means to be part of the human race.
I was pissed that China got the Olympics. Now, Im sort of happy. I still think China is 100 years away from deserving to hold the olympics. being the World’s cheap labor pool doesnt make you a successful country, it just makes you a cheap labor pool. And an authoritarian, backwards cheap labor pool at that. But OTOH I am happy that the whole thing seems to be falling apart for China. China is losing face big time. A big humiliation is what china deserves and I hope things are JUST WARMING UP.
agit-prop.
What is this a picture of?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi.....square.jpg
You know what’s pathetic. Those protests started at the University of Beijing.
Journalists went to the University of Beijing in 2006 and asked students to tell them about that picture. The student didn’t understand the context of the picture, and didn’t know where it was from. They simply had no idea what that picture meant.
If you are so free, watch this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/
Didnt Google and Yahoo admit that they had to pretty much restrict thir service to operate in China? The only lies are coming out of Beijing and little flies like agit.
deleted (troll)
I’m really lovin’ the protests, not that I bear China much ill will. It’s the hubris, and a deserved comeuppance is a joy to watch. One wonders what the Chinese were thinking when they concocted this worldwide torch tour. What leads someone in Beijing to think, “Hey, the Brits, the Frogs, and everyone else are overjoyed by China’s ‘peaceful rise’, and they’ll want to celebrate us.” C’mon, just unnecessarily tying up traffic is reason enough to piss off many. And did the Chinese forget the numerous aggrieved groups just waiting to pounce on any opportunity to put their gripes in the limelight? If the Chinese leaders saw nothing but a rosy outcome for this exercise then they succumbed to their own delusional propaganda, and this ought to unsettle ordinary Chinese (including those who claim they can freely access opinions from ’round the world) as well as the world community. If I were Chinese I’d really have to question the capability and judgment of my nation’s diplomatic and intelligence communities. How’s they not foresee this? But thanks for the entertaining spectacle.
If you think the US has gotten a free pass on human rights abuses, you’re not paying attention. The abuses of the Bush administration have severely damaged the US image and its ability to influence the world. If the Olympics were held in the US right now, I think many people would indeed be calling for a boycott.
As for human rights, you can expect people to be more vocal about China’s abuses as China becomes stronger and more influential. Congratulations on becoming a world superpower. The first thing you’ll need to learn is that the world loves to criticize a superpower. Trust me, I know. I’m American.
What’s disturbing is that, to an objective, non-educated observer (say, people 50 years from now), agit-prop makes convincing arguments. Why? Because there’s jack shit when it comes to empirical examples involving Chinese human rights abuses, specifically visual kinds (pictures, footages). And why did this shortage happened? C…e…n…s…o…r…s…h…
Without proper visual documentation, historical events have a tendency to slip into obscurities… Which is what some people say is the cause for historical obscurities involving Philippines War or Japanese Internment.
agit-prop,
I can read anything I want. I can get all the informations from the internet, just like you.
Actually, you can’t. Read this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....1567.shtml
Well, he can read anything at the moment (…mostly), since he’s apparently in Korea at the moment.
“U.S. has Kent state massacre, so what? U.S. slaved the blacks, so what? U.S. kills iraqi babies and woman, so what? U.S. tortures muslems, so what?”
So what would be that, anyone in U.S. can look up these incidences and denounce them without having to worry about becoming a political prisoner. Can you name the Chinese equivalent of Jon Stewart? Probably not, unless we go into lists of incarcerated, executed, or ‘missing’.
I am not surprised at the commentary herein; I just let it go because it is amusing to read a defense of the indefensible, as per this “agit-prop” person.
I’ve noted that “brainwashed” and “racist” are common words thrown anyone that is critical of the Communist Chinese Party’s poor judgment and lack of morality. Usually then this is followed by some desperate reference to social evils that have occurred in other countries as being a perverse justification of why the Communist Chinese Party is not so bad; after all if someone did something bad in Europe, then it must normal to do this elsewhere (in China!?).
As per Howard French’s letter on Chinese propaganda:
There is a pathetic confusion of criticizing the Chinese Communist Party with criticizing ethnic Han people — which I would never condone. Most educated Chinese I have met are very nice, smart and interesting, and most would never make such imbecilic attempts at misdirection per “agit-prop”. This fellow’s comments are so deluded that I really wonder if this fellow is simply some internet troll who is attempting to provoke responses rather than a real Chinese person that can think. If this “agit-prop” is a genuine Chinese person, then your parents are really wasting their money sending you abroad because you seem to be learning no critical thinking skills — that is unless your sponsor is actually the Chinese Communist Party.
we chinese can protesting. we can critisize government. many millions of peoples ciritisize and protest everyday. only violent protests and criminals go to jail. nothing happens to regular protestings, most the chinese are very happy with CCP.
Ever tried to protest anything? Give this a good read. (you should take the opportunity, since you won’t be able to read it when you go back to China):
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html
People aren’t criticising the Chinese people, they’re criticising the Chinese government. I had Chinese friends in Australia who hated the CCP.
I kinda think agit-prop is a non-Chinese troll. Nonetheless, I hope you people here realize by now that propaganda works–especially when the propaganda is more subtle (such as telling only half the story) and when it appeals to what the people want to believe anyhow. I read so many opinion journalists say that China’s propaganda is going to hurt them later on. No. Propaganda has kept the regime in power this long and will keep it there. The only area people will start critically thinking otherwise is if the economy is in tatters.
Also agree with BumfromKorea.
Final comment, the torch relay itself irritates more than the Chinese angle. The relay and the quasi-religious lighting ceremony are just hype to swell the egos of the IOC. Although out now, Juan Antonio Samaranch played the world like his own little fiefdom. Let the games be the greatest athletic events that they are. Making it something more, like the IOC and the Chinese government are doing (sacred flame my ass), is just inviting the protestors to come.
Well of course. After all, the Chinese are their own special race that’s actually separate and distinct from the races that reside in all those other countries you don’t criticize so much (or in fact may praise on occasion). South Korea? Separate race. Japan? Separate race. Taiwan? Separate race.
Seriously.
Don’t laugh.
Seriously, dude.
Well, I really doubt agit-prop really is Chinese with a name like that.
“Chinaese human rights situation is not bad. we chinese can protesting. we can critisize government. many millions of peoples ciritisize and protest everyday. only violent protests and criminals go to jail.”
All right, I’ll take a swing:
Hu Jia was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison for the following letter.
http://www.unionleader.com/art.....0aff5f8857
He is neither violent nor criminal. Most of us would probably agree that he truly loves China, that he’s a true patriot. If you don’t understand the feeling, then maybe you should remind yourself that China was born from a revolution, that it was people like him–people discontent with the human rights condition under the old system–who built your country. If his words are worthy of prison, then maybe the Chinese government is not worthy of its citizens.
I lived in China for 9 years. Most Chinese love the idea of the Olympics. They are proud that China is hosting this event.
However, the Chinese population are furious at the CCP. It is the actions of the CCP that is producing this backlash against what should be one of the greatest events in Chinese history.
No one blames the hardworking Chinese people. The Chinese should be proud they can host the Olympics. I am proud of the Chinese people. But every Chinese citizen knows, it is the CCP that is causing shame to be heaped upon the Chinese Nation at this time.
I cannot tell you how much the Chinese inside China hate the CCP. Any Chinese telling you otherwise is a member or a stooge of the Chinese Communist Party.
The Olympics are going to be interesting. I think we’ll see a considerable number of Chinese citizens voicing their opinion when the world media arrives. I hope every frustrated peasant, frustrated factory worker, and forcefully uprooted citizen is simply biding their time….waiting for the world to arrive with uncensored eyes and ears. The CCP is going to have a hard time “containing” that.
#34,
Well, sure. All my Chinese students are all very nice, maybe sometimes more so than many of my Korean students.
I have to agree that the Chinese government must be falling victim to their own propaganda if they thought running the torch through San Francisco was going to be a good idea. The US military marching through San Francisco would get protested much less Chinese paramilitaries marching with this torch.
“we all know tiananmen square disturbance. That is 20 years ago. things change.”
#24, YES, it’s been TWO decades! The World Changed! China has also changed but very little since tanks rolled onto Tiananmen Square in 1989. Few days ago, I read on a newspaper that the Chinese court just simply sentenced a Chinese guy to five years in prison for demanding “human rights instead of Olympic Games.” That’s current situation you or other billions of Chinese don’t get from the Xinhua news nor Yahoo China, agit-prop! You Chinese just robbed of Tibetans cultural identity and basic freedom that’s the FACT that everyone knows but you.
It is time for Chinese Gov. should learn that it’s global economic power automatically not lead to the world’s center stage as one of the leader. Now, Chinese should also know that Mercedes or Louis Vuitton does not automatically give them the democratic freedom.
“I just wish somebody would protest over the human rights abuses against North Korean refugees in China.”
@#11 Great point, it would be a great opportunity to let the world knows about it as well.
Please do not feed the troll.
agit-prop is not the only one. Its common sentiment held by alot of Chinese.
There was an article in SF Bay regarding the SF protests. There were massive amounts of Chinese folks who were showing support for the CCP.
Is agit-prop being ironic? Or is he/she/it truly delusional and trapped in bizarro world?
so I think he might be trolling.
Also, I think that CNN, BBC, and every other news organization in the world has extensively documented that when you protest in China, you get massacred.
Armed with “Mao Tse-Tung thought”, agit-prop can easily defeat the capitalist oppressors and revisionist traitors!
Either that or he’s a “useful idiot”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
@38
Most Chinese aren’t deluded. Most are attending those rallies to support their country. “Agit-prop” is not in anyway representative of the sentiments of the Chinese people.
Most Chinese live at a comfortable peace with their government. They support CCP inasmuch as the CCP allows them to get rich.
@39
That guy wrecks of troll. His English is too inconsistent to be a non-native speaker.
C’mon, fess up R.Elgin, you wrote it to boost your comment count, right?
Cue a long, embarrassed silence…
With a wrecking ball? I suppose you meant reeks…
Not hardly “hoju”. I have better things to do.
We had massive protests throughout Canada, by the Chinese, supporting the PRC government and protesting the West’s media propaganda against China. Most of the Chinese i”ve talked to, believe it’s mostly the Americans and Brits who are using Tibet to score points against China because they’re afraid of economically rising China. The West is just jealous of China.
Coupled with the fact the amount of undeserved hostile Chinese nationalistic bashings against Koreans and Japanese that are on the Chinese internet right now, I don’t know why everybody thinks agit-prop is not a Chinese.
because agit prop says things like “brainwashinged”, but also uses terms like “morally bankrupt hatemongers”.
bite!
Sometimes, Dave’s ESL Cafe is an easier read than this site. Just saying…
I deleted the last three postings of our troll. If he pops up again, I will delete it.
Wow! Is this for real?
I wonder how many hysterical complaints about violations of Korean sovereignity we will hear when the Chinese torch troops show up on LMB’s Magic Mile.
Looks like the ‘hole is getting a little taste of the Chinese Netizen troll. Oh boy, and you thought the Korean version was bad. I’ve encountered the Chinese version in my wiki battles on Koguryo and as a former moderator at a Chinese history forum. Btw, this Chinese history forum’s web site has now been blocked by the Chinese government.
I’ve seen that ethnic Chinese in Singapore are the most moderate and ethic Chinese in Indonesia being about as bad as their mainlander cousins. The ones in the U.S. and Australia are a mix.
I’ve encountered both in English forums and in Korean and Chinese forums. Both sides give as good as they get.
“Most of the Chinese i”ve talked to, believe it’s mostly the Americans and Brits who are using Tibet to score points against China because they’re afraid of economically rising China. The West is just jealous of China.”
A conspiracy because we are jealous of China? Mmm…no. I think they should start wondering who in their community planted those ideas in their heads, who is a CCP agent.
# 61,
The main difference that at least I’ve noticed is that Korean trolls will throw a plate of spaghetti on the wall and hope something sticks. Chinese trolls will follow a line of reasoning that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to a westerner, but isn’t that easy to argue against. Once you get over that hump, they throw another and another. Korean trolls annoy me like a gnat buzzing around my head. Chinese trolls ruin my picnic like ants crawling all over the food.
That description is pretty funny “wang”. Trolls, in general, and this thread subject are just sad, though.
because we know the expat is going to slam ‘koreans’ for not protesting, let’s point out that a little over a thousand people showed up to protest the torch and in the city. that’s out of at least 2-3 million people who live in the immediate area.
let’s also point out that while the expat will attack koreans for not protesting, they won’t say a word about the expats who don’t.
((((
what makes you think he was a troll other than what others said? do you have any proof he was? it seems to me you deleted his post because you didn’t like what he was saying. add to that, people were objecting to his style of writing rather objecting to his points. in other words, you censored him for his thoughts. that’s what china does. that’s what you do too.
lastly, can i ask? what about his point that a country that’s just brought about the death of over a hundred thousand people has very little authority to point fingers at others?
seems like a good point to me. of course, with so many of you so busy proclaiming your manhood over the ‘lil’ korean guy, when do you EVER address the issues, expat?
))))
marmot should be the only one to delete posts. this is his blog, not yours, elgin.
Pawi, the guy flat-out admitted that he was a troll. Like… literally, he said ‘Yeah, I was trolling’. I think it was a joke or something…
Elgin, can you delete the troll @65 too?
“Pawi”, the jackass admitted to trolling for fun and is not Chinese, thus I killed all of his inflammatory commentary since trolls should have no monuments. Like an old D&D player, I kill trolls.
As per censorship, the CCP censors its citizens because they apparently are afraid of losing control of China and they seem to stoop anything to do so and lie about it. Censoring you, however, would be an act taken out of annoyance only and not because I control anything or want to. That is a major difference that you seem to be unable to understand, judging by your post.
Secondly, no one has said anything derogatory towards Koreans so why are you acting as if this has happened? Perhaps you are trolling for fun and maybe I should delete *all* your commentary from now on, but then people say I have a strange sense of humour so . . .
I am curious as to how the Korean public, at large will react when the torch arrives here and how they will take the presence of Chinese paramilitary thugs.
Me thinks that the Korean public won’t give a rat’s ass.
#65,
You need a hug.
#69
just wait until the issue gets intensive media coverage. I’m dearly hoping that it will btw.
The weird thing here is that Elgin deleted the posts where agit-prop wrote, in perfect English, that he was just pretending to be a Chinese netizen. He was playing a role. It’s weird to me that Elgin deleted those posts (which I happened to see in the few minutes they were up) but not his earlier ones. So Elgin wants to maintain the illusion that he was really what he claimed to be. Odd.
I wonder if this post will be deleted too.
What I did “colontos” was use the “spam” button inside Wordpress for the last three comments by the troll (his English was not “perfect” either). The rest I simply deleted in the usual manner so as not to leave odd holes around much of the rebuttal commentary that others had left in good faith. Otherwise the thread would look quite odd.
I am maintaining nothing but the integrity of the thread, if possible, and not any body’s credibility.
I am surprised at the almost complete silence on this issue in the local papers so far. If this keeps up, I would question their collective willingness to indulge in anything more than gossip or news feeds. The torch is supposed to come here around the beginning of May.
Elgin, you are the second-to-last contributer to this blog, behind dram_man, who is qualified to judge whether or not anyone’s English is perfect.
WAY behind dram_man.
#73: “I am surprised at the almost complete silence on this issue in the local papers so far.”
Fear not, I’m sure that if those Chinese Paramilitary guys have big melon heads there will be massive protests. We don’t need any more ugly people here in Seoul.
Colontos, are you sure you didn’t forget to add an extra “s” at the end of your handle?
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