In the Korea Times, Gimhae Foreign Language High School teacher Dennis Yang writes that for the English education system to improve, foreign teachers need to be given a stake in the system:
Without exhaustive reform, qualified native English teachers will continue to leave after a few years of making pocket money without a substantial contribution to the English education of Korean students.
First, in order to restore public confidence in the qualification of native English teachers, recruiters ought to be heavily filtered by regional governments and those teachers who possess inadequate degrees should not be allowed to teach just because they possess a much sought-after Caucasian exterior.
Candidates should be selected from the top 50 universities of English-speaking nations with a demonstrated ability to deliver knowledge in a confident, meticulous, and courteous manner.
Second, an upwardly mobile promotional apparatus for current native English teachers is conspicuously absent. Without a system that recognizes and rewards achievements, English teachers will forever feel like second-class citizens.
More responsibilities and subsequent compensation should be allotted to native teachers who demonstrate leadership aptitude and a relentless willingness to educate students.
Read the rest on your own.
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71 Comments
The start of his article is moronical, but he does make a few points… other than the one about only hiring from the top 50 universities. Sounds like he’s pandering to a bunch of people who think that your university defines who you are for the rest of your life and that people are unable to grow beyond what they learn in school. Hmmm, now who thinks like that?
I strongly agree with the sentiment of this, but what possible qualifications can authorities set in place? The author has an MA in East Asian studies, apparently from one of the top 50 universities in the world. In America, that would qualify him to teach community college. Why would that make him, and not someone with an MA-TESOL from a university not ranked in the top 50, most suitable to do his job? What course is there that would adequately qualify someone to teach EFL at a Korean public school?
1. Qualified teachers
2. Low pay
3. Large numbers of teachers
Korea has to pick two.
well said, Saxif, #2
I dig the idea of some kind of chance at promotion or improvement of our lot (the Metropolitician once suggested a kind of E-lux visa for long-term teachers), but the “top 50 English speaking universities” thing is asking a bit much; yang went to Duke and Boston College (good for him) but he doesn’t have an English OR an Education degree, so he might want to be careful about suggesting the bar be raised beyond the “Has a four-year degree from an English Speaking University” level: it might come back and bite him in the ass, too, if they decide to add “And an English or Education major, or TESL certification,” while they’re at it.
Is it even possible for an article in a Korean publication to cover the topic of English teachers WITHOUT marijuana and wild sex being at least mentioned?
It says:
Not all English teachers use marijuana and come to Korea just to seduce Korean women.
[some - let's be fair] Koreans read:
(not all) ENGLISH TEACHERS USE MARIJUANA AND COME TO KOREA JUST TO SEDUCE OUR DAUGHTERS.
Tiresome, is all. Just tiresome.
…hiring from the top 50 English speaking universities..I just stopped reading after that.
So what exactly does this sentence mean? The preposition “with” there could be modifying “Candidates”, “Universities”, or “Nations.” I’m guessing it should be modifying the first, in which case Mr. Yang is advocating for his own replacement with a more qualified teacher.
Plus, whose “top 50 schools”? Newsweek’s? US News & World Reports? Let’s at least let all those aspiring ESL teachers who are in high school now, dreaming of working in Korea, which schools they might like to apply to in order to catch that brass ring…
You don’t say… Well, I suppose this guy proves that it’s obviously not the school that you go to that determines how much you end up knowing or being able to express.
“Any quintessential American meal would be empty without a juicy, flavorful, steak as its main course.”
It was hard to continue after the first sentence. Steak dinners the quintessential American meal? Highly debatable, but, even if we accept his premise that steak is indeed the quintessential American meal, the first sentence is still a jumbled mess. If there is no steak, then the meal is not just empty, it would not qualify as quintessential. Furthermore, is ‘empty’ really the best word to use there? Can a meal be empty?
The guy can’t write (should have gone to a non-top-50 school) and has some strange ideas but he accidentally made a good point. Native English teachers are stakeholders and should be considered in any decision regarding English education.
Ham-handed introduction and pointing out the obvious.
Foreign teachers should be “given a stake” in the education they help produce.
OK — any other obvious points made by another American who gets to the Korean schools and thinks they’re the first to discover that (*GASP*) the kids are forced into regimes of rote memorization, or that foreign teachers are treated like the proverbial walking dictionaries?
Next, we will be treated to exposes of how Korean women (now, hold on, since this a shocker!) are under pressure to get plastic surgery *NO!* or that prostitution is a real, bona fide social problem!
If there’s anything irritating about the round-and-round nature of the way things go here, it’s how the Times and other publications seem to find the next random, wet-behind-the-ears kid who has nothing particular to recommend him or herself as a commentator and give them a megaphone.
Personally, I prefer that Korean American kid who was exposing how bad KA’s get the shaft here, or the adoptee who rages against the country that “rejected” them, or the biracial kid who complains of being “caught between two worlds.” Hackneyed and cliche as these narratives are, at least sometimes the writing’s better.
Nothing against the kid, but I just wonder if the editors at the Times are just getting people to write to fill up space, or whether they actually DON’T KNOW that this has been said a thousand times.
Sure — give us “a steak” in the system, but how about decent pay, or health insurance, or basic respect, or even-handed treatment in the media, or…
Well, how about just asking for just a “steak” instead?
Hehe…
I blame society.
I was hoping to completely disqualify this guy’s argument on the basis of his top 50 universities crappola, but it seems every other post so far has already done that.
One more thing to note… all this talk of the whitey’s making all kinds of bank teaching English here… then why is it that the friends of mine who are English teachers seem eternally broke?
It’s because drugs and whores are so expensive in Korea.
Yu Bumsuk #2, makes a great point. Having a great degree from a top university does not make a teacher. Would much rather see a teacher with a CELTA or TESOL diploma hailing from some middle ranked university, than his ilk.
I got two things from that article.
1. He’s simply writing about what HE wants.
“For instance, at my high school, it is virtually unfeasible for me to elevate my standing in this educational hierarchy because I am a renewable-contract employee.”
and
2. He’s been here two years, and has the audacity to portray himself as a “veteran”.
‘[some - let’s be fair] Koreans read:
‘(not all) ENGLISH TEACHERS USE MARIJUANA AND COME TO KOREA JUST TO SEDUCE OUR DAUGHTERS.’ Tiresome, is all. Just tiresome.’
it’s also tiresome to hear expats tell us that only a few of you go to korea for sex when everybody knows the reality of the situation. that’s why so many of you run around in cyberspace shouting at the top of your lungs that you take the korean man’s woman. how are you, dram?
tiresome, is all. just tiresome.
of course, it’s true that some expats DON’T go to korea for sex and marijuana, but all of them happen to be female.
and let’s be honest; your real beef is with the guy’s name.
@11 english teachers don’t have pay for whores, that’s a sport of the indigenous. english teachers need only lure them with blue eyes and promises of teaching english, duh.
Re. #14: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ifEMquCBPBc
chiamattt: well the thing is that in the EFL industry in general, experience isn’t really much valued. That’s what happens when you get an industry that’s mostly based on getting kids straight out of college who don’t know too much, working them for a few years and then getting a new batch.
Maybe shifting the industry over to being more lifer-based would be a good thing, would certainly remove a lot of the burden of dealing with culture shock from the shoulders of the public school administrators (at the cost of dealing with a lot of freaky burnouts).
But he’s basically right that the way public schools are set up there isn’t much of a reason for him to stick around, but I really don’t see how much chance there is of that changing. I don’t see it being too likely for the public school system to want to pony up enough money to make someone like him to stick around when they could just get a bright-eyed 22 year-old instead of a lot less.
I presume most of you are use to ignoring pawi’s postings. I’ll soon be there with you. Pawi, I come from Canada, why would I come to Korea for marijuana ? That would be like you going to Canada for soju.
Foreigners come to Korea to get laid? Well why not? I am sure you are not turning it down too often. If I were a Korean man, I wouldn’t play that card too often, since it really must be embarassing if not absolutely frustrating. Don’t worry, perhaps in the end, when it comes marrying time, you will benefit from your wifes foreign experiences.
Hey head to Canada and get yourself some great Canadian poonanny…you’ll never be the same. Good luck. There are whores there too, so there’s a chance it could happen.
Perhaps it is true that foreign men get laid so easily here while Korean men are religated to paying for it.
I wonder why ?
again, Saxiif: well said.
Fact is, as long as the perception remains that any white-skinned (or at least native English speaking) monkey can teach English, we’ll never make any headway. Most of the directors at the schools where I’ve worked treated both the Korean AND the Western teachers as if they were basically interchangeable, as long as there’s a warm body in the classroom following the lesson plan. If they really believe the lesson plan is what’s gonna make people learn, then yeah, we’re interchangeable, and you may as well find the cheapest place-keeper you can. If they noticed that some of us DO take our jobs more seriously, and do our damndest to transmit actual, useful knowledge to our students, then they’d start thinking about looking for ways to keep us here, but many don’t pay enough attention to anything but the bottom line, and the fact having a Token White Person on the promotional materials puts more bums in seats.
#16 baeksu: brilliant. I don’t know HOW that dude sustains for the entire song.
#14 Pawi:
Do you really have such a low opinion of Korea that you think easy Asian poon is the only possible reason any male could think of to come, and stay here?
While I won’t deny that many of the Korean women I see on the street are beautiful, and might indeed justify coming and staying here, Korea has a lot more going for it than just that. I hope you get a chance to discover some of the sparkle, bud.
(Let’s not even mention the fact that by saying “Western men come here to bone Korean hotties” is just as insulting to Korean women as it is to western men: it’s basically calling Korean women all stupid (dumb enough to be hypnotized by the blue eyes) and easy. It takes two to tango, and if the Korean women are going for Western men, give them at least enough credit to recognize that they’re adults making consensual choices, eh?)
Meanwhile, Yang can have whatever name, education, face and skin colour he wants; I take issue with his opinions, and the way he presents them; I don’t discriminate; I take issue with ALL shoddy arguments equally. He might well be a very nice guy, he went to “better” schools than I did and he has a “better” job than I do; all the power to him! I wish him the best, but I’d prefer if he didn’t pander to the Korean crowd so much with his western teacher stereotypes and “top fifty university” elitism.
(ps: speaking of that stereotype, here are some accessories to help poor helpless innocent victims know the good English teachers from the bad ones. Hee hee hee.)
#17. You say: “well the thing is that in the EFL industry in general, experience isn’t really much valued.”
It doesn’t because it isn’t valued in most Korean industries. It isn’t just the EFL industry. Almost every “career” after graduating University requires the studying and administering of more tests, and the purchasing of more books and the attendance of yet more hogwan classes.
A Korean national, born and raised in Korea, who wants to work for KBS is required to take a Korean language test(한국어 능력 시험 KBS) in order to even be considered for a job (or to move on to the next level of testing) at KBS. And yet, prospective English teachers are not required to take a test to prove their English ability.
If Koreans want better English teachers, they should simply handle the situation the “Korean way” and have prospective teachers take a test.
I will end by saying, check out this article. I’ve had it bookmarked for a long time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12.....write.html
#19: “I don’t know HOW that dude sustains for the entire song.”
Pawi Power?
Teaching ESL overseas is overrated and underremunerated:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MKIaS0lh-uo
I think I’m going to become an American Gigolo in Seoul instead:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=it_N30ThtvA
There’s a whole lotta lonely ladies here!
As I almost literally choke down comments on the attempt at being punny, I have one concern to voice.
His thoughts are defensible and admirable, but feasible? My major concern is simply who is going to pay for all of this? Each point has quite a few cost drivers, in his order:
1. While school officials deal with recruiters, there would need to be an extensive vetting process that will likely come with a corresponding bureaucracy to deal with it. And on top of these explicit costs are the implied costs for both the hiring school and recruiter dealing with said bureaucracy. A final point here, wouldn’t the vetting process lead to corruption and another hidden cost.
2. His standards for teachers are admirable, but I wonder about the cost of the grads. These are some of the most sought after grads in their home countries. I could go on and on about the costs here, but ’nuff said.
3. It would be great to have a career track, but the costs would be rather large. First, the “top 50″ grads he wants would need even larger compensation on top of the big pay package it took to get them here. That’s not the big cost thought. Think of the opportunity you would be denying domestic teachers. In an ideal world this would not be an issue, however given the militancy of the Korean Teachers Union, domestic teachers would have to be compensated (perhaps even to the point where any career track would be so meaningless we end up back to square one).
I can see where one may be tempted into thinking that given the amounts spent on English education in excess of standard schooling that such a program is feasible if such a cash stream could be diverted. However, the basic logic of that stream is the participants in Hagwons and such are getting an “edge” over their peers. Giving that “edge” to everyone will only create an opportunity to create another “edge” gaining opportunity, thus spiraling educational costs in Korea further upward (get tutored by only the “top 5″ grads).
I applaud the effort to find a solution, but everything here increases costs for the government, the parents, and perhaps opens up avenues for further corruption.
Raising standards for English teachers (top 50 universities, etc) appears merely to be a strategy for some to reduce supply and raise their wages. It’s not clear though, that better educated English teachers would really be in the best interests of most Korean students, who for the most part, just want someone with whom they can speak basic English. Requiring PhDs at McDonalds might get you a marginally better tasting Big Mac, but it’s probably not worth the cost. Maybe a two tiered system is the way to go, with basic requirements (high school education in English speaking nation) for some basic teaching jobs, while Masters Degrees and Korean language ability are required for career positions at major universities. Those in the later category would have the option of promotion and higher salaries with seniority, and receive funds to send their children to international school. They could thus raise a family here and spend most of their career years in Korea.
These career jobs probably will only materialize when Korea does away with the kind of mercantilist policies it has applied so far towards English teaching. Foreign firms and universities have been shut out of the educational market, and foreigners have not been able to directly sell to the Korean consumer. If foreign universities are able to enter, they will need to offer compensation packages lucrative enough to attract quality teachers, including chances at promotion, education for kids, etc. Opening up the market is probably the best chance for English teachers to improve their lot.
Top fifty universities you say? Doesn’t the Times Education Supplement list something like 500 universities in it’s top 50? (something like 300 are placed as 50th equal - does that count????)
#20 thx chiamatt 4 tha intrstin lnk i red n njoyd vry much n think evry1 agree w/dat
Seriously though, I’m shocked with what passes as acceptable correspondence via e-mail or text messaging. Of course, I’ve always firmly believed that to be able to write, you have to read first. A teacher of mine once said that to be able to write 10 words, you should’ve read 100 (or 1000). And for everything you write, proofread 3 times, edit once, and repeat until you find no mistakes and it is clear.
“Candidates should be selected from the top 50 universities of English-speaking nations with a demonstrated ability to deliver knowledge in a confident, meticulous, and courteous manner.”
So, basically everyone who studied TESL at Birmingham University in the UK (one of the top in the world in Applied Linguistics and TESL) would be automatically disqualified. Truly brilliant idea. Maybe the guy needs to stick to Asian studies and leave English education to those who are qualified to those who studied at Birmingham.
“His thoughts are defensible and admirable, but feasible? My major concern is simply who is going to pay for all of this?”
Also even if they do raise their standards and raise the wages it won’t solve the biggest problem with EFL in Korea: the massive turnover. If anything someone with a diploma from a big name school is less likely to stick around if there’s good jobs waiting for them back home.
What would probably be best would be a system that starts people at low wages and then has some kind of career track in place to keep the good teachers around and a system for canning the freaks. The less turnover this is the less chance of a school ending up with an employee who’s trouble.
“His thoughts are defensible and admirable, but feasible? My major concern is simply who is going to pay for all of this?”
Also even if they do raise their standards and raise the wages it won’t solve the biggest problem with EFL in Korea: the massive turnover. If anything someone with a diploma from a big name school is less likely to stick around if there’s good jobs waiting for them back home.
What would probably be best would be a system that starts people at low wages and then has some kind of career track in place to keep the good teachers around and a system for canning the freaks. The less turnover this is the less chance of a school ending up with an employee who’s trouble.
While Mr. Yang veers a bit off track in his details, he brings up an interesting idea: what if foreign teachers were basically treated as Korean teachers in the education system? I wouldn’t recommend anyone hold their breath on this one, but it’s an interesting thought experiment. It would make teachers more accountable for what goes on in their classrooms, and would provide them with better incentive to do their jobs well.
Still . . . be careful what you wish for. I find the less contact I have with Korean administration, the happier I am.
The author isn’t even qualified to teach - sure he’s got a university degree, but it’s not related to teaching, linguistics or more specifically language teaching.
A top 50 university does not a language teacher make. Wow, he has a degree from one of these A list universities - in Asian Studies and Sociology that about the same as a degree in basketweaving from the university of timbuktu when it comes to language teaching.
Just because immigration says that a university degree in anything qualifies one to be a language teacher doesn’t make it true. Yang needs to pull his head out of his ass.
George W. Bush has a degree from a “top 50 university” (assuming that either Harvard or Yale might make the cut).
How man people want him (or someone like him) teaching English? I’m not talking about politics here, just pronunciation, word selection, and the art of training children to communicate effectively with others.
And did Yang pick “top 50 universities of English-speaking nations” because he was intimidated by the USA’s “two thousand six hundred eighteen accredited four-year colleges and universities” (from http://www.voanews.com/special.....1-voa1.cfm)?
Unlike certain “Hermit Kingdoms”, people in America can be quite successful with or without a degree from a top school. Look at Bill Gates and Michael Dell, those notorious college dropouts.
Have a nice day!
For all the disadvantages of being an essentially fungible commodity as an EFL teacher in Korea, one of the things I liked most was not being treated as a Korean teacher. No need to go to pointless and incessant staff meetings. No need to go on late-night soju binges whenever some older asshole wanted a partner for some boozing and whoring. No need to deal with the hierarchical politicking bullshit that goes on… And sure, I knew some people who actually went through all that and ended up with some modest amount of job security (and the slightly higher salary that went with it), but it was because they were willing to play a game that most people were happier just ignoring.
Dang, Zonath. You nailed it!
No need to go to pointless and incessant staff meetings. No need to go on late-night soju binges whenever some older asshole wanted a partner for some boozing and whoring. No need to deal with the hierarchical politicking bullshit that goes on… And sure, I knew some people who actually went through all that and ended up with some modest amount of job security (and the slightly higher salary that went with it), but it was because they were willing to play a game that most people were happier just ignoring.
Sooo….basically what you’re saying is you were a “wang-ta”.
Yeah, what a fabulous way to run an organization - where the people who put all of their energy into actual productive work, as opposed to ass-kissing, are considered wang-tas. There’s something wrong with that kind of system.
didn’t mention prostitution. most of you get laid easy in korea? well, even an ugly black man in germany could get a leggy blond. being different in a sea of the same can be very helpful.
but your reactions are soooooooo predictable. most of you are in korea because most of you got ignored in your home countries. you should be thankful that korea has allowed so many of you to become the men you never were here in the west.
don’t bother with your youtube vids; i don’t watch ‘em.
i know your game, expat.
Yeah, what a fabulous way to run an organization - where the people who put all of their energy into actual productive work, as opposed to ass-kissing, are considered wang-tas. There’s something wrong with that kind of system.
Ok, let me know when you’re done working on your Post-Capitalism Utopian Manifesto. Until then, we have our Dilbert cartoons.
Pawi, you need to remember that sometimes guy-talk tends to be chauvinistic, with sprinkles of hyperbole on top. This is true regardless of culture; so just ease up, we expats ain’t that bad
‘Perhaps it is true that foreign men get laid so easily here while Korean men are religated to paying for it. I wonder why?’ expat poster
don’t know how i missed this one. man, what a doozy! just the expat i’m talking about.
btw, the vast majority of men who use prostitutes in korea are middle aged men who have wives. sorry to burst your bubble, hero.
you know, will ferrell is a white guy. ;_)
The one of the Expat’s many small contributions to Korean society is his dick.
Uh huh… Yeah, I was horribly picked on at work, bullied by my “superiors” into doing humiliating things… Oh wait, no, that’s not at all what happened. As you may or may not know, a ‘wang-ta’ is the lowest rung on the structured hierarchy in the cluster-fuck that is Korean academia. Foreigners tend not to operate (or register) as members of that hierarchy at all. After all, what’s the incentive? Most foreign English teachers who don’t like the job aren’t invested enough in it to stick around and take any abuse. On the other hand, playing the system only ever produces very limited results — how many foreign English teachers in Korean universities have tenure, no matter how qualified they are?
You know, “Expat” — as if there’s only one of us, with only one approach, mind, lifestyle, intelligence level, morality, etc. . . .
arguing with Pawi when he/she’s tossing stereotypes around is like mud-wrestling a pig. After a while you realize that only one of you is having fun.
Yeah, part of the entertainment of the Marmot’s comment boards is when two commenters start a no-holds-barred holla-down, but you won’t find me taking the bait.
I’ve seen Pawi start some interesting discussions over on the open threads the last few Saturdays. . . it’s kinda fun when you play nice instead of being provocative for spite.
That’s all you’re getting from me, big P. We may chat again when you’re back to choosing interesting topics and seeing distinctions and the like.
Until then, you’re starting to sound like this guy.
pawi, why are you eternally bitter? what was her/(were their?) name(s)… the girl(s) who left you for the expat?
@36 “well, even an ugly black man in germany could get a leggy blond. being different in a sea of the same can be very helpful.”
Right on. I bet it’s done wonders for you in America with the white women, hasn’t it pal.
Pawi, and I’m sure went to the US for the ‘chocolate thunder’.
I came to Korea because I’d wanted to visit the country ever since I watched the 1988 Olympics. People seemed so darn nice (the CBC makes a point to show a lot of the host country in its coverage of the Olympics…which is more than I can say from Korean and American broadcasters).
I came here because Asia always interested me. My biggest mistake was coming to Korea which has an over abundence of pawi’s. Not to mention the whole pathetic pure blood bullshit ideology most South Koreans seem to believe in.
Japan (and even China) is far better than Korea for an expat as far as developed or developing Asain nations go. Sorry, I’m being subjective, I know. I’m speaking from experience by-the-way.
Korea has gone as far as it’s going to go. Koreans need to change their education system entirely, not just in regards to English education. China is the future, not Korea.
Put Saxiif in charge.
Correction…I’m sure you went to the US for some ‘chocolate thunder’.
man, you guys are just so predictable. i knew the only response i would get is some variation on expat mantra #4006 entitled ‘i take your woman’. it’s so boring.
how about addressing the issue? you guys say the vast majority of you DON’T go to korea for sex and i say i don’t believe it. the vast majority of you go to korea for sexual reasons. that’s just the truth of the matter. it’s funny how so many of you go ballistic when somebody points that out. c’mon, expat, can you not once tell the truth?
tell me something, why do most male expats go to korea if it ain’t for the sex? can you tell me that? i’m not asking about any one inidividual, i’m asking about the expat as a group. are you going to tell me it’s because of korea’s culture when most of you take every opportunity to take a shit on it? c’mon now! who you think you’re fooling?
the vast majority of you are there because you want sex. that’s why you’re there. don’t bs me. you wanna think i’m some young fart, that’s my advantage…..
I try not to talk to pawi, so I’ll just talk in his (her?) general direction . . .
This morning I was musing on the many faces of racism, and I saw a few parallels between what was said about American blacks in the first half of the twentieth century, and what what’s said about white English teachers by Koreans. Namely, it’s that they’re all drug-abusing, lazy parasites who’s only goal is to have sex with white (or Korean) women. So now, whenever I hear the standard Korean nationalistic contumely, I’m going to pretend it’s being said in a thick Alabama accent, and through a white sheet. Might give me a smile.
Pawi, do you have a sister, and if so is she hot? Details please!
why is that i can only picture pawi’s sister in a burka?
“why is that i can only picture pawi’s sister in a burka?”
That’s hot!
well gee, pawi, we’re not all one person with one mind, one will, and one motivation, you know; these are expats you’re dealing with, not the Borg.
In the same way a handsome person can look in the mirror and notice only their blemishes and imperfections, in the same way a stalker says “I could hear the love in her voice when she said, ‘I’m calling the police,’” you can keep grinding that axe until somebody takes your bait, and anyone who DOESN’T fit your ocean of notions will be dismissed as an exception to the rule — admit yourself that nothing I say would convince you to rethink your opinions about expats.
Here’s why I fell in love with Korea, and stay.
http://tiny.cc/howsthatpawi
it never stops fascinating me. call me an exception to the rule if you want, but recognize that you’re wearing blinders the size of the 63 building, bud.
meanwhile, you still haven’t given any response to my point (cf comment 19) that saying Western men come here to knob Korean women insults your own women as much as it insults male expats: saying that Western men score easily here implies that your own women are stupid enough to be fooled by blonde hair, blue eyes, and fuzzy forearms, and easy enough to spread their legs for that blue-eyed voodoo. Korean women are more educated than ever before (more women than men passed the civil service AND the bar exam last year); those ladies are applying sound, sharp minds to their choice to pair up with Notkoreans instead of with Koreans, and implying otherwise disrespects their free volition.
Got a response now, or are you just going to repeat your same old slurs again and pretend I didn’t say anything?
Or is that why you excommunicate people, because you can’t categorize them?
there’s the gauntlet, pawi.
put up or shut up
sound of crickets chirping. . .
And in the distance, a dog howls…
*cough cough*
btw pawi and any others concerned: the tiny url doesn’t seem to be working, so you can see the same by clicking on my username link on this post, or below, which uses a different keyword, but basically has the same idea.
http://roboseyo.blogspot.com/s.....%20culture
Don’t take it personally, Roboseyo. Pawi is busy organizing pogroms in Chinatowns across the Peninsula.
thanks, baeksu.
I’m a little disappointed, but not at all surprised. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted, and kinda vindicating to get the victory, even by count out.
Pogroms for Chinese Koreans, eh? This is the first time I’m glad to be Canadian since Interpol released Christopher Paul Neil’s photo.
(ps: I love pimatgol, too)
Alot of people i’ve talked to come for money and opportunity and that includes people from US, Canada and Korea.
Unfornuately within that mix there are angry white nerds who look for a second chance at life. They get rejected again in a foreign country and come here to vent.
Then they purport they’re banging women like crazy.
Here’s a dose of reality for all the angry white nerds. Women dont like nerds PERIOD. Look at Japan, super nerd country, their women wont even fuck their own men let alone marry em.
what about the angry nonwhite nerds? And the angry white non-nerds? and the happy white and nonwhite nerds?
I’m still trying to figure out if it counts as defending expats in general if one insults a subset of the group.
I’ve also met a lot of people, white and nonwhite, male and female, oversexed and undersexed, who actually do believe that travel broadens the mind. I like spending time with them. I usually take the complaining about Korea with a grain of salt, and consider it more a manifestation of culture-shock than an outright condemnation of the culture; as my mom used to say, “when Peter talks about Paul, we learn more about Peter than we do about Paul.” Too much of the complaining can get tiresome and repetitive, and I see why some of the lifers have very few western friends, or rarely spend time around the first-year hogwan set.
#61: “Look at Japan, super nerd country”
Only a square would make such an empirically false statement.
BTW, my advice to Pawi would be that if he is really concerned about expat sexual predators, he turn his attentions elsewhere. This is a site dominated by eggheads and with a fairly low female-male ratio. There is indeed a significant amount of expat sexual predators in Korea, but they tend to flock to sites such as Adultfriendfinder, Ublove and probably Englishrectum and many others.
I suggest he set up a fake profile as a nubile coed and then regale those he snares with absurd non sequiturs.
If that doesn’t make them want to leave Korea, then at least it will distract them from their preferred prey for a while, and thereby make this a better place for all.
You know, Pawi mostly reminds me of those random ajeoshis who froth and howl at any non-Korean in sight who doesn’t immediately interact with them, convinced that attention should be paid to them. By interacting, you folks are probably encouraging this annoying behaviour.
But I wanted to note for those who think Pawi’s frog-in-the-well mentality reflects a majority view, that my university students this semester have quite often (and eloquently) pointed out their belief that westerners come here for the money/work (as well as maybe for experience of living abroad). This is less laughable than one might think since the job market and pay are indeed better for many here than would be at home, even given the (oft-muttered-about) negative aspects of living and working here. And a fair number of these students of mine claimed to know foreigners who, living here for some time, had come to care for the place or the people here, and stay much longer than they imagined, despite the sucky parts. (Like meeting people like Pawi in person.) Not one said it was just for easy sex. I’m sure many of the women in the room would have said something if someone had, so I doubt it was just my presence that kept this unsaid.
So don’t let a ninny like Pawi fool you: there’s a whole ‘nother generation of folks who don’t think like that, on their way, to swell the ranks of the older ones who already don’t. Critical mass is on the way, though yes, it’ll take time to really, truly ascend.
When it does, everyone but the officious frogs in the wells shall be better for it. (Or perhaps even they shall benefit, despite themselves.)
I agree with you, gordsellar. Mostly I only engaged (this once) because it’s fun to keep the rhetorical claws sharp, just in case I ever need them for something worthwhile later, because my friend’s been telling me about how he’s been studying techniques in argumentation, and because I’ve had pent-up energy lately from wanting Spring to finally come. I also teach adults and I haven’t run into a single person who actually believes the kind of nonsense spouted anonymously on the internet k-comment boards.
And yeah, my policy is usually non-engagement: a fire without oxygen starves and all.
Like you, I’m also quite excited to see what happens when the group of young people matriculating right now, learning English early, traveling overseas, and actually starting to engage with other cultures and other ideas, starts maturing into the new generation of leaders. The next twenty years in Korea are going to be really interesting to watch, and the way things are going now, I might well be here to see it from close up.
I have a friend whose Kyopo friend goes on comment boards like these when he’s bored, assumes a fake ID, and says junk he doesn’t believe just to get everybody up in arms, for pure shits and giggles. I keep that guy in mind whenever I start digging around in the comments on the K-web.
I think from now on I’m going to refer to the “yankee go home” shouting ajosshis by Jongno 3ga as Pawis, and for the rest, focus on what I love about this place instead of feeding the negative energy cycle.
take care, eh?
and if Pawi reads this, I’m going to hold this ignominious retreat over your head whenever we meet again on these comment boards.
it HAS been a ride. I see why certain other commenters go toe to toe with each other about fortnightly around here. Keeps the juices flowing!
You guys are taking this way too seriously. Also: quit spending so much time talking about people who aren’t responding to you. It makes you look like losers. And judging by the amount of “internet warrior”ism going on here, you can probably see loserville without the aid of a telescope.
Seriously, the “you didn’t reply to me so I win” thing is really the bottom rung of internet immaturity.
colon, as an occasional apologist for pawi, you are the one who comes off as a loser.
stacked, the tired generalization that a lot of the whiteys getting laid right and left here are nerds and social rejects back home might make you feel better about something or another, but 1) if it’s true, it goes back to what roboseyo said about what your opinion must be of the Korean girls who are screwing these guys (read up) and 2) it’s just plain wrong. Most of the guys whom I know here in Korea can and did get laid plenty back home without any problems.
#67: One of my former supervisors at my last university was an extremely handsome metrosexual in his late twenties who kept in good shape, was the nicest guy and in all honesty better looking than Brad Pitt. You could see girls’ knees trembling as he passed them in the hallways in between classes. One time he gave a special lecture on international business and the posters all over campus advertised it as a talk by a “minam kangsa,” accompanied by flattering pictures of him, of course. He was a rockstar without the attitude, the very opposite of a white nerd or loser, and could have had a harem of 72 virgins here if he wanted without even having to go to heaven.
One day, however, he left school for good and I heard the shocking news: Not once had he ever gotten laid in Korea, and apparently it bothered him. He was not gay, he simply hadn’t cracked the code of the mysterious Korean female mind.
I have no general conclusion to draw from this story, except to say that sometimes gross generalizations say more about those who make them than they do about their intended target.
@67 - “NO U!”
Wow, just when I thought that it couldn’t get any less mature, cmm proves me wrong.
Ummm, if I could respond to the article, I’d probably tell them THESE might be of assistance even more than anything else (especially since they are so eager to integrate other voices:
1) The reason why you cannot retain any native English speakers is because of your treatment of them and corrosive reputation abroad as xenophobic, chauvinistic pigs-indeed we are ambassadors abroad and quite frankly many folks have returned with horror stories of mistreatment including illegal withholding of pay, relentless racism (in the case of African Americans, fluent English speakers and some even with Masters degrees) and in the case of females sexism (which in some cases I have read has included sexual assault which your police force/hagwon system has utterly failed them.) THESE are the stories they are bringing back to their respective countries even as we speak-is this the image you want to project, where the tourist board’s slogan of “sparkling” gets sneered at?!!!
2) You currently rely on a system that is unrealistic: most students in other nations (even Africa, where learning a European language in addition to one’s native tongue is very common with FAR less resources than Korea does) DO NOT make memorization there modus operandi but encourage people to speak entirely in the language and USE DECENT, UP TO DATE TEXTBOOKS.
3) If you truly want to attract the higher end teachers with the wonderful qualifications, I must be blunt-DREAM ON. A Yale graduate would be taking an enormous cut in pay, as would McMaster, as would Trinity, as would Oxford. They will leave just as soon as they figure out they are treated like cattle by their superiors and the parents and may not have a guarantee of being payed on time (if at all) nor is a system in place for them to teach adequately in. They will lecture you on it, you will dismiss them as ignorant foreigners, and wake up one horrible day finding nobody is stupid enough to put up with your bull anymore-ALL THE TEACHERS ARE GONE OR BOYCOTTING.
Think I am exagerrating? Fine. Think I am a racist witch? Wonderful. But know this: I have attended school in New York City. I have met up with your best and brightest (it is a top tier art school, one of only a handful that teaches 3D computer graphics) and I can solidly say that the current methods you employ in the classroom are wholly inept: the many Korean students at the School of Visual Arts could simply not understand a word of what was being said to them in the first year and a half and most of the time they were carrying around pocket translators and going home crying because nobody could understand them (my department head mentioned to me that they consistently barely pass the American standard version of a language test and often must retake it.) They were never told that Americans speak at a louder volume and so when they raised their hands they were often not heard-apparently teaching solely perfect pronunciation and grammar didn’t save them from this huge loss of face.
In four years they made zero attempts to get to know the locals and as a result missed out on a great deal: such a “stick to your own kind” attitude won’t work if you need help on homework and the teachers/locals dislike you for treating them like they were infected with plague or an ends to a means or their servants. (It was worse in the grand scheme of things when you consider they were living in a cultural mecca and the only places they ever went for a good time was…Koreatown.) This is not the fault of your teachers, but rather your system: you don’t encourage any real cultural learning and don’t take into account that the standard you currently hold with stuffing a child like a Peking duck may actually humiliate you abroad.
The Korean students I mentioned, furthermore, may have gotten high grades and honor roll mentions, but they will not be getting a job at Pixar anytime soon owing to the fact that they have very poor social and language skills,let alone creative ideas (a classmate of mine themed her thesis around…a boy studying.) This could have also opened the door for other Koreans and improved THEIR reputations abroad. Whether you like it or not this will become more and more the case: Foreigners honestly may some day soon say F#$% You when you beg them to teach in Korea as more contact with the outside world grows and need for connections in foreign markets grows.
So Korea, enjoy your current status while you can: it is killing you slowly and making you a laughingstock abroad.(Or better yet, do what you always do and say I have no right to say such things and b–ch and moan about how all foreigners should be burned at the stake for being more than a passing novelty on the streets of Seoul meant to entertain you….protest with loud angry signs further confirming your xenophobia …and never acknowledge a problem until it is too late…)
MK - it may be that Koreans are actually quite happy not retaining any native English speakers. They may actually prefer high turnover, which eliminates any extra foreign competition for sought after senior positions. And newcomers are much less likely to assert themselves and make demands. And, English teaching doesn’t exactly take a career to master. It’s not as if you can build up a list of publications over time. In addition, keeping foreigners around for the long term is expensive - who wants to pay the expensive international school tuition for their kids? Koreans are probably happy to deny most foreigners a “stake in the system.”
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