The Korea Federation for Environmental Movements (KFEM) is organizing another large demonstration against President Lee’s grand Canal project, and international residents in Korea are particularly invited to participate in this one. A group of us are going to march in it under the banner of the excellent Korean Mountaineering League, and any of you who wish to be involved would be highly welcome to join us.
All the reasons why this canal is a really bad idea, madness even, have already been run out at length in several topics on this estimable Blog, so I need not repeat them. If you share our opposition to the project, whether from the environmental or the economic or even other perspectives, why not show up and add your voice? Festivities will begin at Seoul Station Plaza at 3 pm on Sunday (March 30th), probably ending with a candlelight vigil somewhere. There will be a parallel demonstration in Busan. This is intended to be an entirely non-violent expression of the public will, and without any fingertips getting cut off, but just in case the cops get out of hand i’m keeping Brendon Carr on speed-dial 
For further information/perspective see the front page of the K. M. L. website above.
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54 Comments
Take your candlelight vigils and shove em up your ass!
This is just great.
First, people complain about the canal idea, since there have yet to be done adequate environmental impact studies (since it has been so far primarily a conceptial idea - duh!), and now the opposition is “barreling down the alley” without its own contradicting environmental impact studies or whatever. [If there are such studies, one can imagine how well they may have been done in such short period of time.]
Again, it appears more of the same old, same old knee-jerk reaction to [uri outrage here], typical of too many Korean demonstrations.
If any foreigner wishes to join this kind of Korean populace madness, for whatever the cause or reason, be my guest. But don’t expect much empathy or sympathy from the rest of the foreign community — and don’t be too surprised if demonstrating foreigners are held up for scorn and ridicule down the road for getting sucked into this kind of group behavior.
What the hell. It’s your reputation.
Don’t call me, mate. I’m in favor of jailing all environmental protestors, especially the foreign ones whose visa terms prohibit participation in Korean politics.
All of the economic data I’ve seen on the canal paints a pretty bleak picture for its chances of success. The report released earlier this week detailing the number of briges that would need to be altered or replaced buttresses the economic arguement even further.
However, I’m not so sure its a good idea for Korea’s foreign residents to take part in demonstrations against the canal. First, it constitutes political activity, which violates the terms of most visas. Second, I’d like to see Koreans step up and lead this on their own, rather than be prodded by a bunch of 미제놈. I’m not actually calling anyone imperialst American bastards, by the way. This is simply how it’s likely to be perceived and played by the pro-canalers.
I disagree with Tom to some extent - the government doesn’t seem to be in favor of waiting for proper feasibility studies before pushing ahead with the project, so I guess that means that those who oppose it can’t afford to wait either. In the ideal world, of course, the decision on this would be made based on some level of actual reason rather than political reasons.
#3,
I wonder what kind of visa the Dokdo Riders had when they visited the US? The next bunch of Vank missionaries I see spending their summer vacation abroad highlighting the injustices inherent in calling the Sea of Japan by its proper name, I’ll be sure to let them know the glorious fatherland forbids foreigners from engaging in reciprocal action.
As for members of the foreign community marching against the canal, would it not be in your interests to organize against the kind of absurdities that lead to the Lonestar debarcle or even for the humane treatment of 3D workers? Let the Koreans carve out their ditch, it’s not as if the environment here ain’t proper fucked already.
Congrats, sanshinseon, on officially becoming part of the problem.
#3: “I’m in favor of jailing all environmental protestors”
B. Carr, as a self-proclaimed libertarian, how would you rationalize such a radical, state-enforced denial of others’ freedom of speech and freedom of assembly?
Just curious. You will note that I am being entirely civil here so I would appreciate a reponse in kind.
Good question; I appreciate the direct and fair-minded way you’re asking.
I do not approve of a state-enforced denial of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, which I consider to be God-given human rights. Such violation as we’re discussing in this case is not at the same level as state-enforced denial of some other rights — one’s right to live, for example — but basically amounts to an annoying petty nuisance, like the infringement of one’s right to par-tay.
But as I am not admitted as an attorney under the laws of Korea, and am not a citizen either, there’s not all that much I can do about it. So I would appreciate it if others would leave me out of their predictable and pointless struggles against The Man. Call someone else at 2:00 a.m., please.
Wrongly accused of murder, I’m with you. Jacked up for violating your visa status — dumb law or not — by protesting some environmental cause, not so much.
I do wonder the same as #7, and find #8 quite lame as a non-answer.
I assure ecorn that international residents are not taking any kind of leadership in this case, and it could never be seen in an imperialist way — this is being totally led by the Koreans for their own (good) reasons, some of us woi-guks are just showing that we agree with their opinion, FWIW.
And I would say to aaronm that just because the environment has already been damaged in this nation (tho not nearly as much as in some other countries, yet, thank Dao), that’s no reason not to resist a gigantic further damage. And other issues that might need to be addressed by the international community here will be dealt with in their own proper way in their own proper time, there’s no need or basis to claim priority among them.
As to colontos, i have to wonder what he thinks becoming part of the solution would be…?
Sheesh, i’m surprised by the sheer nastiness of the other responses here. Buncha anti-democracy assholes who declare that citizens and international residents of a Republic have no right or valid interest to publicly demonstrate their opinion on major public policy…? Far as i know, peaceful gatherings and marches of that sort are a standard, historic, proud and valuable (essential, even) aspect of the excellent democracy of the United States of America, where i grew up and am still a proud citizen of.
Shouldn’t the onus of proving the a major project to be environmentally sound fall first and foremost on the people who intend to build it? For example, if I were intending to start up a waste site, mine, or factory, shouldn’t I be the one providing the evidence that my project wasn’t going to harm the environment? Why should a canal spanning the length of the country be any different?
However, while I’m not in favor of the project, I would be hesitant to involve myself in any protest movement here. I have no interest in ever being more than a spectator at a Korean demonstration.
#8: Brendon, thank you for your answer.
If you don’t mind, I have one last question from a strictly legal standpoint.
If standing in front of Seoul Station and expressing one’s views on the environment constitutes “political activity,” how does that differ from going online and expressing one’s political views on a Korea-based blog?
Both seem to constitute public assembly in the public sphere, yet if I am reading your reasoning correctly, the former is illegal in the case of many foreign residents here, but the latter is somehow perfectly fine.
Am I missing something here?
Buncha anti-democracy assholes who declare that citizens and international residents of a Republic have no right or valid interest to publicly demonstrate their opinion on major public policy…?
sanshinsheon, you seem to desire an equal application under a rule and practice of law that does not provide it, and these persons have (perhaps brusquely) pointed that out. From a practical standpoint, they have only informed folks that, in actual fact, different sets of rights accrue to different individuals. That may seem harse or difficult to accept, but it’s true.
Sorry about the misspell on your name, sanshinseon.
4. ecorn,
You may be right in that “the government doesn’t seem to be in favor of waiting for proper feasibility studies before pushing ahead with the project…” but so far, I have yet to see the evidence of such. People are assuming by the Government’s intentions that they are going to to go forward with the canal regardless of any evidence to the contrary of the project. Again, that may be correct, but I have yet to see any evidence to support that assumption.
But no matter, let’s demonstrate!! I’m sure doing such will give several professional 386ers a temporary new lease on life after the last national elections.
We are in agreement with the second-half of your sentence: “so I guess that means that those who oppose it can’t afford to wait either.” Since the masses are not known here to bother with taking the time to get their facts straight, “hey! why wait - let’s demonstrate!”
And I think it is just lovely that some foreigners are willing to risk their visa status so as join in these demos by lending their appearances with their white persons’ credence - similar to how Hollywood stars validate political causes by showing up and making inane speeches.
Rock on, dudes!
White people have credence in Korea? When did this happen?
#15: Apparently you gentlemen have not read the definitive text on this subject: “Koreans Are White” (Wladimir W. Mitkewich, Boston: Meadow, 1956).
A distinction without a difference, as they say.
I agree with you. But you and sanshinseon are both conflating legality — and established fact — with morality, or your own personal value judgments. I don’t have a judgment on either one, and would prefer that we all be free to do as we please. However, I’m not in charge of that. Given that I have limited ability to effect such change, I choose not to lose sleep over it.
#17: Thank you for your reply. I wasn’t aware that I had expressed an opinion on the canal or the demo against it in this thread, but thank you for imputing motives on my behalf nonetheless, because I do appreciate your consistency.
If I read you correctly, then, if you are a foreigner and express political opinions on this blog without the proper visa or legal authority, that would be worthy of “being thrown in jail,” correct?
Or are you saying that the foreign anti-canal demonstrators would NOT be in violation of the law?
How do you “agree” with me again?
I’m in favor of jailing all environmental protestors
Why?
freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, which I consider to be God-given human rights
What’s God got to do with them?
No, no, no… Interference in the Korean political scene should result in deportation, because that’s not allowed under the Immigration Act and the regulations concerning visa issuance. I don’t happen to agree that such a circumstance is just, but I do have to acknowledge that it exists and that as non-citizens of Korea, us foreigners don’t actually have a right to be here except as permitted by the laws of Korea.
If the foreigner (or Korean, I don’t care) is an environmental protestor, anti-military agitator, animal-rights goof, or hippie of any type (or just a registered Democrat), then I think that person ought to be jailed. While I acknowledge that there’s no legal basis to do so, it would be viscerally satisfying to me personally.
Because the vast majority of them are insufferable phonies. Since it’s too hard to separate out the tolerable ones, I advocate jailing the whole lot of them.
King Baeksu, Libertarians tend to believe that the environment will look after itself. Or big business will. Or they just don’t give a fuck.
Most libertarian ethical positions, based in the idea of the rational subject as uniquely valuable, are incompatible with ecological ethics. A libertarian society cannot prevent natural resources from being destroyed, or the environment from being polluted, because of its rejection of collective regulation and control.
Or as Jeffrey Friedman put it: “The environment is the libertarian Waterloo: it reveals the flaws of the doctrine in a way that seems to ensure that no ‘answer’ is forthcoming.”
Or so I gather. What is your position on protecting the environment Brendon?
Brendon, well, OK, but you’re still not addressing my question about Korea-based blogs used by foreigners here. For example, if half a dozen commenters on this blog were engaging in Roh-bashing on a regular basis over the course of years (and maybe that even influenced the casual Korean reader), how is that different from half a dozen foreigners standing in front of Seoul Station and expressing their views on the grand canal project?
The former case would seem to constitute an organized gathering of (mostly) Korea-resident foreigners in the public sphere. From a legal perspective, how do you justify that?
Again, I’m just curious about the legal aspect here. Morality is not my issue here.
As it is often said in certain circle, Brendon “speaks my mind.” This country is a democracy (at last) and so there is basically freedom of expression for its citizens and there is a remarkable indulgences of foreigners within public discussion in newspapers, blogs, etc.
I think where any alien in most countries crosses the line is when one joins in public demonstrations, which normally by their very nature are disruptive to the comings and goings of citizens.
Now, if everyone has the citizenship of the location of the demo and if the government is a liberal democracy, normally all demos do is create some inconveniences to others while making their point.
But if you are not a citizen — even if you are with local citizens at their invitation– and should you become a public nusiance, then you better be prepared to face official harassment — not for your beliefs or your cause — but because of your audacity to step beyond your privilege — not right — to be in the foreign country.
This principle applies in most liberal democracies — and should any foreigner for any cause get his or her tail in wringer since they just got to join a public demonstration, he or she should not expect much sympathy from the greater community.
In short, given the other permitted means of self expression, joining a public demonstration as a foreigner is plain DUMB - unless you are TOTALLY committed to making whatever sacrifice necessary, such as in the case of Norbert Vollertsen. In which case you have elevated yourself up to a different level, but most people are not willing to take their licks like Doc Vollertsen, including losing jobs, etc.
And to answer Zonath’s query, “White people have credence in Korea? When did this happen?” My answer is “more often than white people deserve” Althhough some people go around not noticing it, since real and perceived minor slights by the locals over-color their general perception their condition of being here.
Rubbish. If “foreigners” are contributing and will continue to contribute to the local society and stand to have their lives adversely impacted by something serious, they should have as much right to protest as the next guy.
Re #11, #17, #18 & #20
I may be wrong, but this domain name is registered w/ Network Solutions of Virginia and the site is hosted in LA. If so, do comments here qualify as inconsistent-with-the-foreigner’s-visa-status political activity in Korea?
I don’t think so.
#26: Seouldout, you may very well be correct but that only addresses part of the equation. Certainly a majority of commenters on this site are speaking on Korea-based computers hooked up to local Internet service providers so they are physically making political comments from Korea. Put it another way: Many Korean porn sites are registered overseas to get around obscenity laws here, but is it legal for South Koreans here to download and consume illegal porn in Korea, even if done so from overseas sites? I don’t think so, but as far as I can tell the main problem is inability to enforce the law here on the consumption end due to sheer lack of manpower. The law clearly states that graphic pornographic content showing genitalia is illegal here, and so if it is sitting on your hard-drive you are in violation of the local law.
Anyway, this is all academic because until I see where it says that non-Korean permanent residents here, for example, cannot by law engage in a public demonstration here, I can only rely on what folks like Brendon have to say on the matter.
I look at it somewhat differently. Firstly, though the comments are presented publicly (overseas) they are typed privately here, i.e., there is no public assembly of people, hence it is not a public demonstration in Korea. The data sent over Korean networks isn’t speech (and isn’t understandable or recognized unless one uses a sniffer to capture it), it’s just packets, and the recipient of such traffic (i.e., the website where the packets are assembled into something more meaningful) isn’t in Korea. But I’m no lawyer, so I may very well be wrong.
On to the porn. The downloading of it from a country where it is permitted to Korea where it isn’t I don’t think is comparable to the aforementioned situation. The downloading (or uploading) of it really doesn’t matter to the equation. Once it’s on the HDD in Korea the crime has been committed. From where it originated doesn’t matter.
Lastly, the inability to prevent the consumption of porn has little to do with manpower. Websites can easily be blocked through the use of content or other filters, and domain block lists can be automatically uploaded. Likely the inability to block has to do with either the lack of will or money. Or both.
“As to colontos, i have to wonder what he thinks becoming part of the solution would be…?”
Try becoming a citizen and voting against the canal. That’s democray. The people of Korea knew ee’s plan and they voted him in. What business is that of yours?
“Buncha anti-democracy assholes who declare that citizens…”
No…
“…and international residents of a Republic have no right or valid interest to publicly demonstrate their opinion on major public policy…?”
Yes.
“Far as i know, peaceful gatherings and marches of that sort are a standard, historic, proud and valuable (essential, even) aspect of the excellent democracy of the United States of America, where i grew up and am still a proud citizen of.”
So come and do it here, in your own country. You got no business doing it there, whether it’s legal or not.
Well colontos, all i can say is that i completely disagree with you on that, i hold the opposite perspective about this situation in America, in Korea, in any nation. All my years as an international traveler and expat-resident have led me to believe that you’re totally wrong. Neither of us have anything to do with the other, thankfully, so we can just leave it there.
I also think that tomcoyner is totally fullovit, especially with his unqualified pontificating to and insulting belittling of me (the repeated-attempted-infantilization of anyone with a different viewpoint than his own, common rhetorical-fallacy trick of bullshit-slingers).
Carr is Coulter-level-wacko as usual, but is just expressing his personal view after all, showing us what his values really are — or maybe not, could very possibly just be trolling us again… I shall not bite, life’s too short.
By the way, i would assume that it’s universally known by the experienced people here that the provision in the Visa Law (political activity is forbidden) that the usual suspects keep trotting out here in these situations is just a holdover from the old military-dictatorship days, and hardly ever enforced on anyone.
Like many others of the type (same as in America and other countries, like those old laws against “sodomy” still in some southern US states) it’s just kept on the books because there is no political courage to change it, and no urgency to as long as it’s not enforced, and it may be sometimes useful to hit somebody with who is annoying the authorities for other reasons. Outside of the exceptional case of Vollertsen, and maybe some foreigner trying to form a labor union a few years ago, i can’t remember the last time i ever heard of this being enforced against anybody — 1987, probably.
If it ever was, and the foreigner wanted to fight it and had Korean supporters who would take it all the way to the Supreme Court, then afterwards it would no longer exist — and so the prosecutors would be very reluctant to apply it to anyone they don’t have to. Like for all such laws.
The few guys who keep bringing that outmoded and ineffective legal-provision in discussions like this are fully aware of this, i must believe — and they’re just using it as rhetorical smokescreen bullshit — they seem to get some kind of kick out of publicly displaying their eagerness to lick the jackboot and turn the dissident ‘traitors’ in; it puffs up their self-righteousness and they probably think that Big Brother will somehow someday reward them for it…
Contemptible. But typical of the sort, and they’ve always been with us. I remember in 1986-87 when quite a few international residents were joining in publicly calling for democracy and human rights, and there were some of these same Quisling-wannabes who would write columns for the Times or the Herald with the same whine: “You know, we Americans are legally forbidden by our visas from interfering in Korean politics, and that’s absolutely correct, we never ever should; we are just guests here and must follow every Law of the glorious Fifth Republic and noble President Chun to the very letter, surely I do every day, and it’s just none of our business anyway; Gosh, I sure hope the patriotic Korean prosecutors crack down on these Communists today, deport them so that Korea’s American-gifted Freedom Democracy will continue to flourish…”
sanshinseon, I hope you’re not including me among the ‘jackboot-lickers’, simply because I proffered an explanation for what others said.
I believe that people should make informed choices, and should not avoid information but embrace it, even when they don’t like what it’s telling them. You are free to do what you want, but you are also liable for the results of your actions. It’s true that nothing bad may happen to you, but that does not mean that nothing bad can happen to you. If you understand and accept that, then you are well prepared in life.
I think the key here is “hardly ever”… As long as it’s still on the books, it’s technically enforceable. Now, remembering the wholly arbitrary way in which laws in SK are sometimes enforced, it should at least be a part of the overall consideration in whether or not someone decides to march, no?
Well… Could be, although I believe the SK Constitution doesn’t guarantee the rights of non-citizens to speak or participate in political activities, so I don’t exactly see where you get your certainty on this point. Not to mention that any fight of this that actually could make it to the Supreme Court (or even just the Constitutional Court) would probably entail quite a high level of inconvenience.
But anyhow, I just want to say good luck with the demonstration. If I were still in any position to participate, I would seriously consider joining.
Cheers.
Well, Sanshinseon, you have hit some nerves with this one! I feel like I should offer you some moral support, although I might not phrase some of your later arguments with the vehemence that you do. First, the canal issue itself- I have not seen detailed plans for it yet, so I cannot make technical criticisms, but I have thirty years experience looking at similar river management projects around the world- particularly in Asia and North America- and for about fifteen of those years it was my main academic specialty. That’s where my gut-level skepticism comes from. I’m not an expert particularly on the South Han or the Naktong Rivers, but I have followed both from near their sources to the sea, seen the dams, seen the river beds at numerous points, studied the development plans (this was back in the 80s).
Now, I love the Marmot’s Hole’s strange combination of solid information, occasional high-level intellectual discussion, quirky Korean and expat trivia, mild salaciousness, general insouciance, predictable trolls, in-your-face irreverence, and running photo series on Korean architecture… But I hope you and your readers will understand that I seriously doubt this is an effective or appropriate forum for debating the technical and environmental problems of these giant inter-basin dam projects. I will save my breath on that for other venues.
But the issue of foreigner involvement in internal politics is one that I have more than intellectual interest in. From the late 80s to the late 90s I was both active and visible in the Japanese environmental movement, particularly on river and wetland related issues, and not as an academic but as a spokesman for the opposition to the Ministry of Construction’s plans. I was in many demonstrations, published articles in both English and Japanese, had my name in the newspapers, occasionally appeared on TV. Fortunately for both me and the movement I was not the leader or even one of the iconic figures, but I was certainly highly visible. The same law about foreigners being banned from political activity was and is on the books in Japan. I heard all these same arguments many times. At that time Japanese in one prefecture would tell Japanese from another prefecture that these projects were ‘none of their business’ either, even though they were being funded by the whole nation’s taxpayers. I personally came to see this much the way Sanshinseon does- if you live somewhere for ten years or more, are involved in the society, and in my case, if your professional interest and expertise are actually related to the issues involved, then you can and should speak out. Of course there are risks, you’re pushing the envelope. On this subject, I think ‘gbnhj’ speaks some wisdom. People with dependents and less than secure positions should walk carefully. In Korea, where the whole demonstration syndrome is quite different than Japan, and things are often likely to get violent at some point, I would guess it’s a little riskier. So I’m really curious to see who shows up for your candlelight vigil, and how things develop. Sorry I can’t make it, but I’m stuck on the other side of the Pacific for now. Good luck, Sanshinseon…
Sanshinseon, you’ve always been a true friend of this planet Earth, and I salute your efforts to preserve at least some of Korea’s natural beauty and spiritual sites for future generations.
Your sarcasm notwithstanding, the fact is that Koreans knew what they were getting with Lee, and they voted him in. Given that, I don’t think that even Koreans have much business protesting on this particular issue, much less a foreigner who isn’t eligible to vote. Would you support a foreigner living in America if he protested against McCain or Obama just 4 months after the American people chose him as a leader?
> 32. gbnhj
No, certainly not you, gbnhj, and not all the others who’ve made reasonable and helpful discussion, of course. I just flew off the handle with a bit of vehemence from being annoyed by the smug smirking Ann-Coulter-imitator act and the smug condescending preacher-of-brownnosing-prudence and the smug you-have-no-rights putzes. Shouldn’t let them get to me — just went home afterwards and had a couple shots of the holy-water from Scotland and tried to forget all about them…
I fully agree with you, Zonath and others about making informed choices and taking full responsibility for your actions — i always have, always will — that has never been in question. Note that the only ones who ever suggested that anyone might seek (or should be able to seek) to avoid consequences for their own actions were the far-right jerks — that’s just their strawman. Sheesh, i attended my first demonstration when I was 12-1/2 — a brief walkout and silent-vigil after the Kent State shootings (followed just a bit later by one demanding that we be allowed to wear blue-jeans to school, if you can believe that
) — and i’ve witnessed plenty of them here in Korea; i do have some idea of what is (and is not) involved.
On the Supreme Court — it’s just my guess based on what i’ve seen evolving recently, that they would overturn such an obviously anachronistic and unjust law — could be wrong, i’ve often been guilty of being a bit too optimistic about Korea…
Thanks also, kpmsprtd and Bad Monkey.
12 1/2 at the time of Kent State? Ok, I get it now. So it isn’t your fault that you’re so full of self-importance. You’re part of (the tail end of) the generation that fucked everything up. Sorry, I should have known better.
… sure, we all calculate our chances make our choices, and hopefully take full responsibility for whatever comes back, every damn day. And we all compromise with and submit to the Powers That Be, it at least a little and as much as we need to get by and enjoy our lives and try to accomplish some of our longer-term and greater goals. Just when i do sell-out and tactically cower, i’m not so freakin’ proud of it in public nor bitterly scornful of those who choose not to…
The doctrine you are attempting to assert, that when a person (or party, in the case of England-style systems) has been elected to office every plank in their platform must be considered to be the settled will of the public is simply and completely wrong — US politics does not operate that way and never has, no form of democracy does or has to my knowledge. That just doesn’t even make any sense, sir — where did you ever get this idea?
Within your brief lifetime, Clinton was elected claiming a mandate for health-care insurance reform, and Bush II was elected claiming a mandate for privatizing Social Security — and did either of those come to pass? — did even a single person ever assert that “because he was elected President we must not offer any opposition to his program”? — Kee-riest, not even close! When has that EVER happened in any nation???
Of course i would (support his right to speak out, not necessarily his particular opinion), to the hilt — it’s called “free speech in a democracy”, you should do some remedial study of the concepts…
As to your #39 — oh, you’re one of those bitter-loser GenXers — OK, no harm no foul, no damage done
Hey, if you think my generation fucked things up before, just open your newspaper today — my fellow Boomer GWB and his cronies have fucked America so badly it won’t recover until YOU’re trying to collect no-longer-existing Social Security — yes, my generation will go down in infamy thanks to them
Oh, I see — if I don’t gladly choose to donate my time and efforts in support of your tilting at the windmills of your choice, not mine, and applaud your heroic civil disobedience in worship of Mother Gaia, that makes me a boot-licking, freedom-hating sumbitch cowering in submission to the Powers That Be.
One reason I support jail time for lefties is it gives them time to let the drugs out of their systems and return to reality.
“donate”…? Out of what fevered imagination did this supposition come from? I have never been under any illusions that you would be likely to do anything for anybody without cold hard cash up-front, please do not fear.
I actually only mentioned your name in that way in the original post as a sort of an inside-joke / friendly-poke-to-the-ribs sort of jibe due to your being the prominent lawyer on this Blog and known to me IRL, subtly and teasingly referring to your well-known oft-stated views on environmental activism. I actually did expect a jocular response from you in some similar vein, but call me naïve. When instead i got unsmiling assholery, well, i was shocked and took it badly.
You’re as wrong about this as you are about your right to protest, Dave. I’m one of the softest touches around — and even help hippies. But I choose the time, place, and terms, and am necessarily limited by the simple fact that I’m not admitted to the bar here. If the request is to help someone be a putz, I prefer not to do it — or at the very least to get paid for that.
If you want to protest the government, become a citizen here. Citizens have all kinds of rights.
#42: “One reason I support jail time for lefties is it gives them time to let the drugs out of their systems and return to reality.”
Before I started up my first year in college in Berkeley, I spent the summer in a nearby frat house because they offered cheap rooms there to let. But there were still a lot of brothers there, many of them rich Republican kids from SoCal, and the amount of drug use and general debauchery I saw them indulge in was staggering. I remember one guy named Simon who one night did no less that 12 different drugs at the same time. So what I am saying is that while your hang-ups with progressives are cute, perhaps you do not need to be lecturing people about returning to reality.
I remember when I first saw Dubya on TV, he had the same glib but somehow devious frat-boy swagger that I remembered from my fraternity summer, and I already knew at that moment we were all going to be in a lot of trouble. His whole “compassionate conservative” routine did not fool me one bit, despite my inability to get a grip on reality, as you put it, Mr. Carr.
I do not dispute that drug-addled rich kids are dopes too, Mr. Burgeson. I don’t like them either — most could use a good jailing as well.
Don’t conflate disapproval of “progressives” sitting around in their Mom’s basement grousing about The Man with approval of shithead frat boys. That’s the mistake Dave Mason makes.
Then from where comes your umbrage about “donate”, a concept you introduced to this spat and no one else ever even implied?
And of course You choose — no one, certainly not i, ever said or implied otherwise. Uhm, again, the well-known-by-regular-readers probability that you would NOT choose to take the case was the very basis of the minor JEST i was attempting to make in that original line, just to close off my post with something light. Someone less knee-jerk-virtrolic than yourself might have noticed the big fat
after that statement.
Brendon, the uninformed way you talk about progressives and caricature them indicates to me that you have probably never actually met one — at least not since you’ve been in Korea. Why do you insist on talking about things of which you lack direct knowledge or experience? The only people who talk about “The Man” nowadays are rappers and maybe a few hipsters in their twenties trying to be ironic.
It may come as a shock to you, but some people in the world choose to devote their lives to other pursuits than merely acquiring money. You would look a lot more intelligent if you could just respect that rather than insistently ridiculing people just because they have made different life choices than you have.
Well, yes true, and that parallels his quite bizzare totally-wrong-but-incessantly-repeated screeds on “drugs”, those who use them and the consequences of usage — as if he’d never taken a currently-illegal recreational substance, never met anyone who had, never read a single accurate thing on the subject — but brings it up again and again for scathing derision — just downright weird and getting kinda creepy. I keep hoping that he’s kidding.
But apart from those psycho-concerns, the end-result for me on this is fully ironic — i’m not going to this event after all. “Things Have Changed” as the Prophet Bob said, and i’m a flexible reasonable taking-account-of-circumstances kinda guy. (in contrast to the the cartoon drawn by Sanctimonious Guy above, that anyone intending to attend a public demo must be acting under childish-emotional-compulsion; no-one who has a different opinion than his can ever be a rational adult making free decisions based on calculations of interests, like he always does, y’see).
What happened, you ask? Factors have come up on this that i had not noticed in advance, but prove crucial (for me). On Thursday was the launch of the National Assembly election campaign season, making partisan-political concerns much more acute and bringing the strict new campaign-period laws into play. Unlike the above-discussed visa-rules, these ones might have some legitimacy and might get enforced. This had snuck up on me, hadn’t realized the tabboo-time was starting yet; go ahead call me dumb-not-paying-attention, i been busy.
And then i check around a bit and yup, our dear Canal Project has indeed become a political-party-aligned issue, with the liberal-left opposition parties embracing the anti-Canal movement and the GNP lining up in support of Disaster-in-the-Making just to show support for Their President. Ooooops. I certainly would not want to take a public action that aligns me with one Korean political party and against another — especially not, at this time, with leftists and against the GNP. Hey, almost all my friendly-associates in Korean politics / government are GNP-types…
And so then this rally might even be declared illegal if it is seen as supporting oppo candidates, and the police could move in to shut it down, there would be old-style disorder {sigh}.
I had accepted the organizer’s invitation to attend this rally (lending my incredibly-influential white skin to the cause!
) on the basis that it was non-partisan, totally-enviornment-preservation-oriented, peaceful and legal — but that prospect Has Changed, and thus so has my decision — i sent my regrets this morning.
So therefore i and will content myself with expressing my non-partisan opposition to the Canal Project on the internet, maybe in print-media essays, in my public speeches, whatever — at least until after election season is over and within reasonable contexts…
You might correctly guess that i feel a bit frustrated by this self-imposed stiffling after all the above; it’s kinda bitterly comic, and go ahead call me naieve again — following Korean partisan-political news isn’t my main gig, the Mountains are.
Some of my international-resident buddies are going to be there anyway, not likely to care about the partisan-
party-political angles as much as i have to… Tho i can no longer invite or recommened anyone else to go, i support anyone who does as a friend — not the sort to stab fellow expats in the back, ever. I’ll stand together with them on this issue later on — it’s sure to go on for years — and on Monday morning i’ll be there to bail my close buddies out of jail if need be — and we certainly won’t be calling Brendon
As a kind of a completion of this discussion, perhaps, i can report that it’s all over and my international-resident buddies say it went just fine — completely peaceful, orderly, good mood, functional. Policeman guided their march but gave them no trouble; there was no major riot-police presence at all. Some politicians were present with some of the groups, but they kept the partisan/party aspect low-key. My friends found it meaningful and fun, and said no-one ever made the slightest suggestion to them that they shouldn’t be there… the Koreans seemed to fully recognize that international residents have a legitimate stake in environmental-preservation issues too… so, All Good in the end.
It may come as a shock to you, Mr. Burgeson, that some people in the world choose to hold a job and raise a family instead of posing as a wry hipster. Different strokes for different folks.
After all of your Fight the Power histrionics here — calling me, Tom Coyner, colontos, and any other voice of reason bootlicking cowards — after all of your prattle about your Rights, you chickened out! I am surprised to learn that you’re just a poseur, Dave, especially after you waved the bloody shirt of your “principles” so enthusiastically and denounced the rest of us sumbitches so vehemently. What a phony.
Yes, you’re right. After a decade in Korea that certainly is a shock to me. Thanks for the revelation!
Happy 2008, asshole:
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