Reacting to Metro’s post concerning Korea’s first astronaut, Seoul Buffoon — whose blog I like, actually (Metro, on the other hand, might not) — writes:
The authorities have taken a decision for whatever reason… and the experts opinions are out in full flow. It is a free for all on the Korean blogs. Some male chauvinists are upset that it is a woman who will be the first Korean…others have suggested that the original candidate was spying for Samsung (his employer)…
Even English Teachers who obviously know nothing about space science (or they wouldn’t be teaching first graders grammar)…. have taken it upon themselves to throw in their two-bits!
Take a look at this reaction from one of them who says it is now party time! Some of the comments that follow in the blog post are quite something…. Conspiracy theories flow…. and some are cocksure that she is the better candidate. Com’on guys, leave it to the experts. Why don’t you stick to teaching the kids!
Well, thank God we have Indian business journalists to relieve English teachers of the burden of holding opinions.
UPDATE: This is adorable — “Update: I remove childish and immature reactions to my blog posts!”
{ 112 comments… read them below or add one }
Little does he know that my secret superpower is a Wikipedic knowledge of Australian rules football.
As an expert, I recommend everyone leave it to me. The teaching of kids may be stuck to, though.
All you teachers just talk about teaching. All you garbage collectors, if we catch you talking about the upcoming elections we’ll censor you. Are you a politician? Then you don’t know what you are talking about. Businessmen, if you wonder what NASA is doing with your tax dollars shut the f-up. You’re no expert and have no right to discuss it.
Who is this douche-bag?
Metro burned him in a post about two months ago. I guess he was trying to seek revenge.
#2 I was thinking the same thing. His blog deals with more than just business topics. Using his own theory agaisnt him, he should just leave those other topics to the experts.
What should we do? Stare slack-jawed at one another until someone scratches and we all stand up and say, “Bravo your itch!”
Is he a censor for a fascist arm of Bill Gates’ worldwide governing thought police? If he’s not then he’s no expert and should quit spewing this tripe onto my computer screen.
The Buffoon may not have been aware of Metro’s long advocacy of Ms Yi’s candidacy and his personal acquaintance with her — stuff he could have looked up easily. Speaking of first-grade grammar, maybe this “Indian journalist” is the guy who “edits” the guest “columnists” for the Korea Times.
Not qualified to teach first grade grammar? Leave it to the experts?
If that’s where he wants to lead the argument…
I may be many things, but unqualified to teach first grade grammar? One of the things I happen to be is a linguist. I’m one of the guys who teaches guys like him to write.
I also happen to be a scientist who has friends who helped design the ISS. If I want an informed opinion on aerospace, I’ll pickup my phone and call my buddy… I certainly won’t rely on some guy who graduated from journalism school.
C’mon, we should all just be in awe of his psychic powers that let him know that of course, we are all English teachers. And of course, not a single commenter has any background knowledge that would be applicable. Or heck, any basic science knowledge at all, apparently.
#7,
I actually had a nice little career in science until I figured that living past retirement age might not be a bad thing after all.
I’m quite happily unemployed and living on the equator at the moment. I will gladly discuss the joys of sunburn, cheap beer, the local massage girls, running down my savings, ten cent nasi goreng and being the only bule in the kampung. In keeping with the wishes of the above, I will have to decline any other topic.
Even the “experts” started out by learning from some pretty decent elementary school teachers. Without good teachers challenging and expanding their pupils’ knowledge base, we’d all still be hunting and gathering and not living the rather comfortable lives that most of us with broadband do.
Here’s what I wrote on his post, in response to calling him out on HIS own claims to authority, which he deems a “childish challenge.” Wait — he’s a highly-paid “business journalist” (and “Chief Editor” of a business magazine), who makes “four times the salary of an average English teacher” — yet he can’t simply name the publication? Or link to anything he’s published? Here’s what I said:
#4
Bravo your comment! I just made the other teachers in the lounge look up from their papers and ask, “What’s so funny?”
Maybe I’ll write something mean about English teachers to get more traffic on MY site, too.
Um. . . we’re all so. . . dumb.
Take that!
childish. simply childish.
He must be the editor in charge of the classified ads.
What? You have a site?
It’s certainly amusing to see a bunch of sanctimonious bloggers and blog commenters deride another blogger for being sanctimonious.
Welcome to the viper’s pit that is The Marmot’s Hole, Seoul Buffoon. With a name like that, I’m sure you’ll fit in quite well here.
BTW, Robert, the entire setion of P’imat-gol between Chonggak Station and Kyobo Buidling is in the process of being raised as I write, and will be entirely gone by 2009.
I look forward to reading a penetrating story about this in Seoul magazine in the near future — as soon as you’re done taking care of more far pressing and important matters like dressing down newbie bloggers, of course!
“This is a perfectly reasonable request to make, give the specific claims of this post, as well as the general disdain you seem to hold for those in the English teaching profession.”
Reveal your name and where you work, Buffoon! Don’t worry, no one here will ever use that information to do something underhanded or harmful. What are you afraid of?
“I’m not afraid to offer up a short curriculum vitae. Why should you be?”
Metropolitician, don’t you whip out your CV in, like, every other post on your blog? That’s how I learned you’re “one of the most academically highly qualified and directly experienced foreign educators in Korea.”
Well, Scott, that’s because thanks to your ceaseless efforts to right the grievous wrongs of contemporary Korean society, the rest of us schmucks and government hacks have been freed to write puff pieces for Seoul City and dress-down newbie bloggers. Indeed, we owe our blissful, carefree existences to you, Scott.
Keep fighting the good fight.
#18: See, there you go again being intellectually disingenuous. You actually linked to a story from The Chosun Ilbo about two weeks ago on old restaurants in Korea and you said yourself that “unfortunately there aren’t too many of them left,” without providing any context to the story whatsoever. Indeed, the first story mentioned in the article was a 50-year-old Chinese restaurant on P’imat-gol and the article itself says that it was will soon be gone due to redevelopment of the area.
Using words like “unfortunately” suggests you care somewhat about these urban redevelopment issues, yet failing to provide any context suggests that your concern is merely token lip service. Which is it?
Anyway, here’s some “context” to that Chosun story you linked to:
http://www.kingbaeksu.com/bbs/.....amp;no=772
It would be nice if in the future you could inform your readers a bit more on the stories you link to, don’t you think? Otherwise, why even bother?
king baeksu gets king prick award.
oh, and by the way… fuck pimatkol. not everything in this world needs to be preserved for ever and ever. i’m as sentimental as they come but that little alley is in desparate need of a rejuvenation. that said, i do hope they erect something a bit nicer than what they put in on the other side where pimatkol has already thankfully been razed. some thoguhtful urban redevelopment could retain at least some aspect of the history of the place. or are you in favor of freezing all time and human development?
I’m not being disingenuous at all. Not a night passes when I don’t sleep soundly at night knowing that somewhere out there, Scott is leading the fight against the forces of evil tearing down Korean culture, allowing the rest of us to take cushy hack jobs pushing Seoul’s propaganda on the unsuspecting English-speaking masses. I mean that, truly, Scott.
Well, again, Scott, I could show you the email directives from Karl Rove and Lee Myung-bak I receive to deceive my readership for the benefit of the Seoul Mayor’s Office, Hyundai Construction and Haliburton, but then I’d have to kill you. Which, of course, I don’t want, since I enjoy your work and, after all, if I were to off you, who would lead the fight against the developers?
MJK: “fuck pimatkol”
Wow. That’s a very intelligent observation.
Let me guess, you’re one of those hypocrites who cried on the blogs when Namdaemun was allowed to burn down due to official incompetence (just like official incompetence is responsible for the current sorry state of P’imat-gol)?
You might be interested to know that a majority of commenters on Naver are against having P’miat-gol removed, and the story is actually getting wide coverage in the Korean-language media.
Not that you ever know by reading the local English-language rags here — or Seoul magazine, of course.
That’s great news. It’s being raised! To the 2d floor, 3d floor — where? Because I had heard Pimatgol was in danger of being razed.
#22: “Not a night passes when I don’t sleep soundly at night knowing that somewhere out there, Scott is leading the fight against the forces of evil tearing down Korean culture,”
Marmot, that is disingenuous, because you know that sympathetic people are so turned off by his sanctimonious tone that they never reach the part about the razing of old parts of the city. I agree with him that you should take up the cause (assuming you really do think it’s unfortunate) because of your immense readership.
#21: “oh, and by the way… fuck pimatkol. not everything in this world needs to be preserved for ever and ever.”
That’s true, and most of the buildings along Pimatkol are already modern structures anyway, but I don’t think ‘fuck pimatkol’ is the sentiment to run with. The modern structures are going to go up, so maybe they can find a way to carve out the same space within the new structures, as tile on the ground or even an innovative mallway through an interior shopping/eating center. Maybe “Seoul” magazine can sponsor a design contest to get ideas.
#17 – Yep, that’s me!
What – when writing a letter as an English teacher to Korean folks, I’m supposed to say I’m inexperienced and not qualified?
As I said, it’s a mode you have to use to convince Koreans to listen to you. When I printed a version of that letter as an Ohmynews article, it served its purpose just fine, no Koreans complained, since they knew exactly what I was doing.
You getting all pissy because I drop credentials to make a point to Koreans about education reform? Whatever – your right.
Also, on the post you cringe at, the point is to show the Koreans coming to the site, umm…WHY they should be coming to that site. Like a resume, which is supposed to put you in a good light. I made it public to serve a purpose, which is to get and keep Korean listeners. And it seems to be working.
If being public and transparent with my background to show I’m qualified and have experience bothers you, the problem’s with you, not me.
People like you seem to be the only ones thinking this is a pissing contest to put up our profiles on a commercial a site designed to get Koreans to use it, to trust it.
Like on a resume, I put my best face forward. If that bothers you, that’s your issues you have to deal with. If that makes me a dick in your eyes, so be it.
You’re not paying my light bill, as they say.
#23,
Actually, it doesn’t interest me to know that at all. What? Do you think I’d be surprised that people want to save that alley? I understand them because I general lean to the side of the argument that protects heritage buildings and sites. What I tried to point out is that sometimes the mission of protecting heritage goes too far. But rather than engage me on that point, you decide to point out that some netizens are protesting it? Big deal. Raze the fucker and build something nice (again, I point out that the mafia building across the street is a goddamn eyesore that does nothing to encapsulate even a hint of the pimatkol heritage, and that is a shame).
KB- Actually, likely most of us probably aren’t interested to know that a majority of commenters on Naver are against having P’imat-gol removed. As Robert alluded to earlier, we are more than happy to feed on the rather mindless stream of poo-quality stories that he faithfully feeds us.
You remind me of an old story I heard many times in grad school about an arrogant, self-important, yet socially retarted (my advisor??) physics professor who while talking to some other physics professors at a conference, he asked in an equally condescending and confused manner, “Why aren’t you researching the same topic that I’M researching?”
#26, you may be well educated, and that’s important to point out sometimes, but until you get that PhD done, I wouldn’t put you up there as “one of the most academically highly qualified and directly experienced foreign educators in Korea.”
And don’t confuse mild disagreement and criticism with being ‘pissy.’
#28: Cmm, like many commenters on this site, you really do need remedial reading lessons. As I stated above, Robert himself posted and commented on this issue recently and said, “Unfortunately, there aren’t many old restaurants left in Seoul.” So he cares about this issue and I am not simply imposing my own agenda on him (notwithstanding his attempts to disingenuously spin this issue in another direction more flattering to his own professional interests). Heck, he’s the one who likes to take aesthetized pics of old Korean buildings, and if he took a broader view of things he would see that destroying important landmarks like P’imat-gol is in fact at odds with the main agenda of Seoul magazine which is promoting Korean tourism and culture to foreigners.
And by the way, I have heaps of friends and if anyone is socially retarded it is your average blogger who sits in front of a computer terminal all day long. I have stories I could tell all day long about some very famous expat K-bloggers and their geeky behavior, but I’m too discreet to do so and they can thank their lucky stars that I don’t.
#27: “Raze the fucker and build something nice”
MJW, you and I both know in advance that they will build nothing “nice” there, but rather just another ugly generic high-rise whose sole point is to maximize profit per square meter.
Anyway, there is a very nice ajumma named Mrs. Sok who has been running a grilled-fish shop on P’imat-gol called Daerim for 20 years, and a very cool haraboji named Mr. Kim who has had his own dojang shop off P’imat-gol for 35 years or so. When they and all the other shopkeepers in the area are getting evicted by squads of pipe-wielding gangsters on the payroll of the developers, I’ll get sure to tell them that MJW says, “Fuck you!”
PS: Brendon, thanks for the snarky typo correction. Just the kind of behavior I would expect from someone whose comments were recently all deleted from the Dave’s ESL Cafe Bill Kapoun thread due to general classlessness and base self-promotion. Who are you stalking lately, anyway, Mr. Big Shot Laywer?
all this bitching over a space tourist???
good lord
Sorry that we ignorant smaller species talk amongst ourselves here at the hole. We forgot that we are supposed to remain in stasis until the Bufoon comes down from Mt. Baeksu with the word. What is Baeksu, anyway? The Korean God of vitriol and bittermen?
#31:
“space tourist” — is that what they’re calling K-bloggers these days?
As a point of clarification, I left information at Dave’s ESL for the benefit of teachers who have no better source of information than guys like you. I don’t want English teachers as clients, because in private practice where the remedies are limited, I can’t economically justify taking their matters. So it ain’t advertising and it ain’t self-promotion. I just want people to have important information which can help them avoid the same situation. If one has information from which English teachers in Korea could benefit, Dave’s ESL is one of the primary venues.
That same comment is right there on Korea Law Blog for anyone to examine whether or not it was “classless”. Can I help it if Dave’s ESL is full of thin-skinned whiners like you who prefer to infer conspiracy and malice behind every corner?
You’re very welcome for the snark. Your book still sucks.
#34: B-Boy, I know you’re a lawyer so I appreciate your attempts at spin, but you were deleted from that thread because you started arguing with someone who disagreed with you (which was perceived as tacky and selfish esp. at it had just been announced that Bill had passed on). Basically you brought your bitchy Marmot’s style of “discussion” to Dave’s and the mods didn’t like it. You know, I have friends who have looked at the Hole for about 2 minutes and were shocked by how negative it is and told me they will never look at it again. Just so you know, and I consider you one of the more egregious offenders here.
As for Korea Bug, it’s funny you think it sucks because I’ve never once gotten a bad review of it and that includes the academic press and even Seoul magazine. Anyway, I’m glad you bought it and hope that you can give it away to someone else if you can.
I believe I did screw up your name, though. Sorry about that.
#36: Robert, if you had signed your name to the review I would have sent you a personal thank-you note, but I wasn’t exactly sure who had done it so I didn’t. Anyway, I did appreciate your review so thank you very much!
BTW, I realize it’s the dinner-time lull now and would not be surprised by additional piling later this evening, so I’ll save everyone the trouble and say it myself now: I’m self-important and quite pompous. Happy now?
I’ve got a 20,000-word interview to finish transcribing, so I’ll be focusing on that from now on. If anyone else feels the need to call me additional names or make personal attacks on my character, that’s your hang-up, not mine, and doesn’t really concern me anymore.
Re. #38: piling –> piling on
I was gonna come on here and ask Mr. Hurt why he’s even bothering with Seoul Buffoon. It’s like Triple H going after the Brooklyn Brawler. But now I see Mr. Koehler and King Baeksu going at it. Since we’re all just trolling for hits at this point, I’m going to have to find a jobber in Mokpo to go after.
Oh, and I think it’s hilariously cute that there are two Korea Law Blogs and the administrators both hate each other. “Shake the jar and see if they’ll fight.” Kind of lame that that little blow-up happened across three different blogs, though.
But you have gotten negative reviews of the book — right here at the Marmot’s Hole, from me and from others. I’m not the only one who found it self-important and quite pompous.
Maybe you’re sticking to that point because you haven’t gotten negative reviews at Amazon. You’ve in fact gotten no reviews at Amazon, leading one to conclude that perhaps nobody cares about your book.
I’ve got W5000 to hand to the first guy who comes to my office to take it away.
Speaking of first-grade English… What kind of height is P’imat-kol raised to? 10 feet? 100?
Oh, maybe you meant razed…?
Shit, Brendon beat me to it. Grrrr….
Wow, five cheon AND a free doorstop? I’m there!
Brendon, you’re so cute. I’ve been a professional book critic for 20 years and saying a book “sucks” does not qualify as a “review.” It’s just an Internet eruption.
If you want to read a real “review,” here are a couple of samples:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/m.....centReview
You will note I got a combined 40 out of 43 “helpful” votes, so some people seem to think I know what I’m doing. Saying a book sucks does not warrant a “helpful” vote in my opinion and in any case that opinion is clearly in the minority and hardly objective as far as I can tell — you’re the guy who said here that Obama is an “anti-Semite” despite the fact that he has been endorsed recently by a number of high-profile Jewish leaders, so I consdier your hold on reality somewhat less than “objective.”
Like I said, if you didn’t like my book that’s fine and I hope you give to someone who might appreciate it more.
Oh, and if Robert’s site had an editing function I would changed my typos, which often happen typing in this little comment window here.
In any case, it’s nice to see that with hundreds of local shopkeepers facing evictions and the loss of their livelihoods, people like Brendon and Dda are focused on the REALLY important things here.
I’m sure it’s obvious to all how big-hearted and selfless you both really are.
My my my aren’t we a cheerful little Captain Tnuc?
Those were good reviews. I’m guessing those were good books. For a book such as yours, It sucks will suffice.
As for whether Obama is an anti-Semite, it does appear to be the case. His friends sure seem to be down with crazy anti-Israel BS. But The Jews are generally in the tank for whoever the Democratic Party nominee will be, anti-Semite or not. Like The Blacks, The Jews have been duped. Anybody who gets 90% of your votes no matter what will take you for granted, like Fidel Castro.
So your information concerning some Jewish guys who say they like Obama is not surprising. However, I think for myself, which has led me to libertarian domestic views and neo-conservative foreign policy views. Let me know if Bill Kristol endorses Obama and I’ll take a second look.
By the way, the guy did what somebody here asked for:
http://seoulbuffoon.blogspot.c.....ested.html
“Let me know if Bill Kristol endorses Obama and I’ll take a second look.”
Do you really think I actually take your political views seriously enough to even bother? You flatter yourself.
Anyway, once you’ve published a book of your own, come back and talk to me and I’ll give you an objective and honest opinion of what I think.
The difference between you and me is that you publish a little-read blog, and I’ve published three bestselling books in Korea and counting.
You may think my book sucks, but I can show you about 75,000 book readers who are willing to pay good money for my work and happen think otherwise.
How many people would even READ your blog if they actually had to pay for it?
That’s what I thought.
Now go back to stalking whoever’s on your petty little shit list this week, because that’s what you seem to do best.
Hoo boy, Carr, the Metropolitician and King Baeksu duking it out. Robert should rename this thread “when egos collide”.
Holy napalm, Batman! For morbid rubbernecking at an accident site/clicking on the Britney link entertainment value, the comment boards today have been more fun than betting on haraboji/hobo fights in Jongno 3-ga Station (and that’s saying something)!
I love how the battle rages across four or five comment boards now — like one of those Roger Moore-era 007 chase scenes where he goes from a fire truck to a mini-car to a motorboat to a helicopter to horseback.
Histrionics have never been more entertaining. . . this was better than my dark tourism trip to Sungnyemun!
Also: congratulations, Soyeon.
from:
the peanut gallery
Man, look at Roboseyo’s blog . . . what a loser: http://roboseyo.blogspot.com/
I told myself long ago that I’d never trust anybody born on an island, so that’s why I can’t stand Roboseyo’s blog: http://roboseyo.blogspot.com/
I do also advise clients, you know.
There are tons of crummy books that have sold 25,000 copies. I can only speak to the one book, Korea Bug, which sucks. The other two might be good. Which do you recommend? If it’s good I’ll gladly come here or anywhere else and say It’s good.
It’s so surprising that you’re Berkeley born and bred.
Hey I’m not from Mokpo. That’s disingenuous! Show me your credentials!
Brendon, now you are officially stalking ME!
All I did in this thread is make a light-hearted comment to Robert that he might be interested in covering more important matters than bloggers’ spats, namely, the destruction of P’imat-gol. I was not promoting myself, I have nothing to gain from such a comment other than to highlight a problem that up until now has been largely ignored in the local English-language media and that includes K-blogs.
Your contribition to this thread was to make a snarky comment about a typo I made. You know, I could tear you apart if that’s how you want to play, to wit:
“As for whether Obama is an anti-Semite, it does appear to be the case. His friends sure seem to be down with crazy anti-Israel BS.”
As a lawyer, do you think arguing a case in such a manner would hold up AT ALL in a court of law? First of all, there is a difference between the state of Isreal and the Jewish people and people of Jewish ethnicity, but of course you knew that, right? Second of all, if a friend of mine happened to be a neo-con like you (emphasis on the “con”), would that make me a neo-con, too? I’m not a lawyer and I’m sure there’s a legal term for the kind of argument your trying to make here, but I simply call it bullshit.
Second of all, all you have said (aboout 5 times like a broken record) is that my book “sucks” without ever saying why. This is like saying in the courtroom, “He’s guilty!” Judge: “Why?” B. Carr: “Because he’s guilty!” Again, bullocks!
Look, I understand you’re a conservative lawyer and my book is about zines and alternative culture, so it’s probably not exactly up your alley. So in this case, the more accurate thing would be for you to say, “Burgeson’s book doesn’t appeal to me for such-and-such a reason.” However, saying “It sucks” is a subjectibe opinion masquerading as objective fact.
Ironically, that seems to be the dominant m.o. on blogs, too, doesn’t it?
Anyway, if you feel compelled to continue stalking me, you can find numerous reviews of Korea Bug online, all VERY positive, and then “rebutt” them if you like and present an actual case for your position that my book “sucks.”
OR, you can consider that several hundred shopkeepers along P’imat-gol are soon going to be evicted because of Seoul City’s ineffective zoning and preservation laws. As a lawyer rather than a book critic, I would think that the latter option might be of far greater interest to you, don’t you?
In any case, if you want to talk about P’imat-gol, that would be great, but otherwise if you continue to hound me such as you are, all that does is make you look like a stalker — a pretty sad case, all in all.
I’m just curious to know about J. Scott Burgeson, the great author. What other books of his do you recommend to a reader who thought Korea Bug sucked? Since you know my political predilections, which of the remaining two books might be more up my alley? I’m open to find out if you’ve written a good book.
With respect to Pimatgol, you are exaggerating. There aren’t “hundreds” of shopkeepers remaining in Pimatgol.
Nevertheless, there appear to be a few dozen left. They are being told to make way for development.
Unlike you, I have worked, directly, in matters related to property development in residential, mixed-use commercial, and commercial buildings — especially in the last year. Our friend Sperwer has too. It’s not an easy process by any means, your protestations notwithstanding. Contrary to your imagination, the developer has to placate nearly every owner — there are myriad protections for the smallholder.
Uhm….there’s nothing wrong with Berkeley. For one thing, it has a top-rated law school.
And King Baeksu’s books are great. He’s documenting things in English about Korea that no one else has bothered to.
Brendon, if you read the JoongIlbo story I translated on my site (no doubt imperfectly), you will see that “P’imat-gol” refers to the area and “P’imat-gil” refers to the street itself. Since redevelopment will stretch from the back of Kyobo all the way to T’apgol Park (i.e., from Chongno-1-ga to Chongno-3-ga), that does indeed comprise hundreds of shopkeepers. Just the 5 lots in Ch’ongjin-dong that are first up on the chopping bock comprise several dozen shop owners, for example.
Anyway, you have refused once again to answer my challenge and if you were on pay as council to someone I would recommend your summary replacement, because you are ineffective in making any sort of case here at all.
And yes, you are now officially a stalker. Any wonder why you were so rapidly deleted from Dave’s?
EDIT: JoongIlbo –> JoongAng Ilbo
Is your “challenge” that I hunt around for numerous reviews of Korea Bug and look for ones that agree with my assessment It sucks? And by “refusal” you are referring to the fact that between 10:34 p.m. and 11:10 p.m. I failed to do so? Wow — you got me! Zing!
It’s “counsel”, by the way.
#61: Uh, not what I said at all. I even used a legal term in my challenge but I guess you missed that. You, too, need to sign up for remedial reading lessons, and yet another reason why you would make a miserable book critic.
Brendon Carr — you’re FIRED!
#63: Brendon, thanks again for the typo correction. I guess you’re good for something.
By the way, I support immediate statehood for the Palestinians.
I guess that would make me an “anti-Semite” in B. Carr’s rigorously argued book, wouldn’t it?
It’s interesting that you actually seem proud to confess that you’re a neo-con, when that term and ideology has been so thoroughly discredited around the world.
Perhaps you’ve been abroad too long? Thankfully, most of America seems to have overcome that unfortunate ideological fantasy and moved on. It’s time you did, too.
Whatever, dude. You actually make a guy long for pawikirogi. Why, oh why did I get myself excommunicated with sprinkles on top?
The King of self-importance says:
OK, nimrod, given your complaint about Brendon’s alleged deficiencies in argumentative rhetoric, let’s hear what you have to say in support of your claim regarding the ineffectiveness of Seoul’s zoning and preservation laws. Can you demonstrate that you know anything at all about them, or are you just blowing more smoke outta your fat ass again because in the instances with which you are famailiar they don;t happen to produce the particular outcome you think would be best according to the lights of your peculiar sentimental education?
“Whatever, dude.”
Rousing final words to sway the jury, indeed!
“Why, oh why did I get myself excommunicated with sprinkles on top?”
Well, I think that’s pretty clear to just about everyone, don’t you?
A final pair of quotes from Wikipedia:
Irving Kristol wrote: “If there is any one thing that neoconservatives are unanimous about, it is their dislike of the counterculture.”[29] Norman Podhoretz agreed: “Revulsion against the counterculture accounted for more converts to neoconservatism than any other single factor.”
There, I’ve made your case for you on why you don’t like my book. Happy now?
Fortunately for you, there will always be The Hole, won’t there?
Peace out!
So it’s your fault.
#65, I refuse to debate someone who hasn’t even read the story under discussion. Like Brendon, you are also underprepared and unready for the courtroom, it seems.
We all know that you are Brendon’s willing lacky, I’m surprised you didn’t turn up here sooner.
#51 – Umm…I’m actually not fighting with KB or Brendon. How did you get that impression? I haven’t even exchanged words with KB here. So…huh? Maybe I was included in one of the references, but I haven’t said anything to anyone other than user-81, who bristled at my putting up an online resume profile on my commercial site and the fact that I use credentials to garner authority when I criticize Korean education or anti-foreigner sentiment in Korean.
I still think there’s nothing wrong with doing such things for business, or to show Koreans that I’m not the “typical unqualified” foriegner they assume me (and all of us) to be.
And yes, I was a bit snarkier than I needed to be with #17, but I’m just sick and tired of people freaking out that I drop names in what is an obvious strategic move, not being some annoying dweeb who defines himself by said credentials.
If dropping them for the greater good of arguing against discriminatory visa regulations or criticizing Korean educational policy means I’m some insufferable prick, though, I guess I’m just sick of the accusation.
So to #17, please stop taking my quotes out of context — I think it was pretty clear what I was trying to do in that “Modest Proposal.” So to the extent I apologize for overreacting, I’ll just ask you rethink what you pin on my as some insufferable ignorance and think about what I think you know very well what I was trying to do….
“what you pin on me as…”
An unfortunate typo…
Crap…
and that’s “insufferable arrogance” not “ignorance.”
Thanks.
#69: You are correct and I know that you have also expressed indignation on the destruction of P’imat-gol in the past, so I believe we are both on the same page here at least in this regard.
been sleeping for a couple of weeks. good to know that English Teachers are still everyone’s favorite sacks of shit to kick around.
the over-reaching, silly xenophobia doesn’t bother me anymore. it’s the holier than thou foreigner who climbs on the uncle tom bandwagon and trashes ESL teachers because it’s vogue to do so.
I thought this thread was about how we shouldn’t be discussing Soyeon because we never attended Cal-Tech. As far as Peanut-gol, I hope the people with businesses there are fairly compensated. I hope they don’t stick another pile of screaming metal, glass and concrete on that site and try to retain some of the traditional flavor, sans the mucous and vomit. But if you believe you’re going to get us to halt what is happening, well it doesn’t appear that any of us have enough jeung and are therefore unqualified to discuss it.
King Coward:
I did read the item in question, which is why I could assume with confidence that you don’t really know anything about the nature and process of Korean zoning and preservation laws.
The article, moreover, isn’t very good on the facts, since it leaves out the most interesting details regarding the ownership of the properties in question and the real moving parties in the development. Given that this story is more than five years old, the failure of the article to even scratch these elements of the back story is evidence of both reportorial incompetence and gross amateurism in your chosen pose as activist manque.
So I understand why you’re so reluctant to engage in a debate that will document your ignorance, prejudices and shallowness even further.
Don’t worry though; I won’t pick on you anymore. You punch much too far below your weight to be challenging. Give me a call, though, if you evolve further up the food chain from your current place as an intellectual gnat.
You know, once upon a time I was also a Z-Grade celebrity with a modest audience. And while I never pointed towards that audience as a reason why my opinion was more valid than others, it still gave me a boldness I hadn’t earned.
After reading this, part of me wants to issue dire warnings about the mistake that is hubris.
But then I realized that sooner of later, I’d get to enjoy some very tasty schadenfreude.
Torn between the two urges, I decided to write this comment instead, and let people take from it what they will.
Great, great entertainment. Thanks, all.
You guys should hold a duel in P’imat-gol to settle this thang (whatever it is) and raise awareness about the neighborhood’s plight.
pimat-gil was always a good place to get boozed up
#75: Sperwer, I’ve noticed that when you try to use complicated Korean words (what is “Sadae-buii”?) you often get the romanization wildly wrong which suggests that you don’t speak very good Korean. So I find it interesting that you would so arrogantly dismiss an article that you wouldn’t have been able to understand if I hadn’t translated it for you.
In any case, if you think you know more about this entire affair than the two different Seoul City officials quoted in the story, then that’s quite impressive. When will you be running for Mayor?
I have said that I am not a lawyer and would appreciate informed lawyerly commentary on this situation. But it is obvious to me that both you and Brendon don’t really care about P’imat-gol or the shopkeepers there, and care only about arguing with me on some sort of spiteful personal level. So please don’t even pretend like you care about this issue, and this is why I refuse to debate with you on this matter any further. I have better things to do with my time.
All the best, and by the way, it’s sadaejuui (사대주의), but of course you knew that, I’m sure, since you practice it so well yourself when it comes to Mr. Carr, don’t you?
I like(d) the fish there, and the old-style drinking.
Which brings me to my point of saying, “So long and thanks for all the fish!”
Almost all of the street is gone, I do not like that fact, but what’s done is done. In the big picture, most of the 달동네 and the flavor of the old school neighborhoods and places has been razed over in central Seoul, as well as most other parts, actually. Nothing stands in the way of good ole’ “progress” in Korea, especially if its glass and steel, and has a name with the ring of the future or royalty to it: “millennium” or “noblesse” or “castle” or something equally inane.
No one here lives in a “castle” or “golden tower” but it’ll take 20 more years before people realize what a living hell has been created here, by comparing to what others have in other countries. I feel like Korea is still stuck in the “new car smell” of modernity, in which you can live in a place like Bundang and think you’re really, really lucky — instead of falling on your knees, Charleton Heston-style, and throwing your fists into the sky, chanting, “You bastards! Damn you all to Hell!”
Or something like that.
Anyway, I still remember coming back to Korea briefly in 1997 and several Korean friends wanting to show off Coex to me, how cool it was, blah blah — and I just felt sick to my stomach. I never liked malls, never liked crowds, and it looked just like any mall in the US.
I know that Pimat was cool, and yeah, now that the bulldozer has come to nearly the end, people are lamenting, but I see it bigger picture: you can’t stop an entire cultural tendency to fetishize and covet “the new.” I really think that any apparent “guilt” here may be real, but it seems too little, too late in a culture that is so caught up in the desire to achieve modernity that it doesn’t yet know how to channel a growing post-modern malaise.
Put in other words, people want bright and shiny shit so much that they don’t really get why shopping malls, the Gap, Starbucks, and Kenny G suck. People might rail against Starbucks for a minute, bcs it’s an Evil American Corporation™, but don’t realize that the real enemy isn’t the EAC, but corporatization itself; hence, people line up to get a seat at the local 놀부 samgyeopsal chain, while ma and pop places go out of business.
20 years from now, when people lament about not being able to get a real bowl of 천국장 or why everything tastes the same these days, the lamentation will start. But by then, people will have so few choices, they might now even know to not be satisfied.
Anyway, the reason I kind of stopped caring about places like Pimat-gol is that, in the end, it’s part of a much bigger process that won’t be stopped until it peters out on its own, if it ever does. People will start to do some very public hand-wringing, but in the end, people want their Starbucks lattes (but will lament about the cool place that let you write your name on the walls and the nice ajumma who gave you free refills), line up for the CGV’s (but go on about how cool that old hand-drawn poster art was), and then bitch about paying $10 more in a Chungmuro or Yongsan specialty shop for an $800 camera they don’t need, then go buy it on the Internet after spending 30 minutes haggling with some guy.
It happens on a lot of levels — I just think Pimat-gol is just the most obvious and stark example. There are other “resources” in the city no one laments about, and are visible , depending on where you’re coming from.
For me, Chungmuro is a natural resource for photography knowledge of the true old school, where a master repairman can break down, clean, and reconstruct any piece of photo equipment for a TENTH of what you’d pay in the US, where you can talk to someone in PERSON who can actually show you how to use a medium-format camera and recommend models, who have photofinishing houses have cute 25-year-old girls in the spiffy little uniforms who can yet actually suggest that because you used Tmax instead of Tri-X film, if I undershot by a stop assuming I would push it later, I didn’t actually have to do so, since Tmax tolerates a single-stop push very well, thank you very much and it’ll actually cause a boost in contrast that you actually might like, sir.
That’s one actual conversation, one actual moment of blissful thankfulness, that is very Korean and very much an artifact of the city and how it is laid out.
But as Koreans want to save their $20 online over the shopowner with more overhead and smaller scale, that knowledge will go unrewarded, the master shops will close, the custom finishing houses will go out of business, and 20 years from now, Koreans will be left with their equivalent to the American hell of the pimply guy in an wrinkly “Best Buy” uniform who knows the specs and what he learned in an employee manual, but not much else.
And in the San Francisco Bay Area, the last custom house shut down several years ago, a place called “Custom Process” that had actual black-and-white developing, as well as (*GASP*) slide and negative drum scanning, the works. Now, it’s gone.
No big deal? In a major metropolitan area, the only way to get BW film done was to send it off to a major mail-in lab and wait two weeks, instead of the two-hour turnaround at Custom Process. And it costs $300 to even get a tech to clean my camera, let alone fix it; in Korea, I dropped mine and he did both for $50. I would have gladly paid twice for what he did.
The point of this? It’s not just places we’re losing as we modernize, streamline production, and ramp up the scale while sacrificing the humanity of our consumption — we also are losing all sorts of highly specialized knowledge and skills. Know anyone who can reverse-engineer a Walkman, or just about any other piece of equipment without major microchips? I don’t, but they used to be there, all along the pleasant monstrosity that it Cheonggyecheon, which is an ironic piece of “nature in the city” in that Seoulites flock to regain a feel for something “lost” but was never really there in the first place (walks along the stream that was used as a sewer dump by the population for about as long as Seoul has been Seoul), even as no one even notices the huge and historical displacement of knowledge, expertise, and skills that were scattered to the wind without anyone batting an eye.
Sure, we wrung our hands about those “poor shopkeepers” and whatnot, but people can be moved, if they are fairly compensated, and yes, things change. But I’d remind us to think about the places that aren’t so obvious a “loss” because they are quaint or just have nostalgia value — I’d also suggest we think about whole bodies of knowledge and expertise being lost, or ways of doing things, that are being “razed over” by everyday people and processes, and not just in terms of buildings being broken down.
Anyway — just another way of looking at it and my two cents.
Why say in 500 words what you can say in 15?
“If everyone were as smart as I, then they would know how unhappy they are.”
(That wasn’t directed at you. It was about the other guy.)
#81: Metro, I agree with your analysis and in a nutshell what you are describing is the product of the paradigm of hyperdevelopment that was implanted in South Korea in 1960s and has taken on a logic of its own and will continue to run amok until it eventually implodes, because in the long-run it is simply unsustainable.
It would be nice if individuals like Spewer and B. Cur who enrich themselves in the service of this paradigm of hyperdevelopment and neoliberal economic imperialism could at least show token concern for the countless individuals here who are kicked to the curb and forgotten when they are no longer “useful” to this system, P’imat-gol and the shopkeepers there being only one of many, many examples.
But in the case of Spewer, for example, he is too busy pretending to be an objective historian (”This Could Be a Long Semester”), but in fact if you read between the lines of his analysis his contempt for Korea is obvious and he is merely promoting a neoimperialist, neoliberal ideology of “progress” and “development” of which he is entirely complicit.
I have critiqued Korean nationalism myself over the years but the kind of instinctive nationalism Spewer mocks in fact makes perfect sense to me on a certain level. Korean national sovereignty is indeed being slowly but inexorably eroded and most Koreans know it at the gut level and realize that their country has essentially sold its soul to the devil of hyperdevelopment and the global neoliberal Empire, and now there’s just no turning back.
This is the very hell of which you so trenchantly and eloquently speak.
First time anyone’s ever accused Metro of describing something in a nutshell.
It is a typical conceit of Western liberals that it is somehow better the “noble savages” shall remain impoverished forevermore for the psychic comfort of the Westerner.
Prior to selling its soul to the global neoliberal Empire, Korea was stuck more or less several centuries behind the rest of the world. Its people lived until the age of 30 if they were lucky (Korean life expectancy at the turn of the 20th century was 24; in the United States 47). They starved to death not infrequently. They lived in huts with a mud floor.
Why would you say that Korea has “lost” anything from the exchange of a wretched 5th century existence for the modern miracle of today?
And do you think the modern market economy is kinder, or meaner, to people of marginal means? Life was really hard: People at the very center of the traditional economy starved to death, or died of hideous diseases, or met their demise through violent means. Their children died of dysentery and other easily-prevented diseases. When times got tough the children were dropped in a toilet, or left on the side of the road, or smothered. Tell us, Professor: When a person was no longer “useful” any more in a traditional subsistence-level village, what happened to that person? Did he go away on a cruise liner, or retire on a handsome pension?
In a traditional village society, there wasn’t much call for counterculturalist writers. Those guys got themselves a new job stooped over in a field planting rice, or they got shown the road. Work, you dog, or don’t eat.
I’m glad to help my clients sell iPods, or expensive cups of coffee, or life-extending medical devices. I’m happy to help them build clean, modern apartments. Every one of those things is only possible in a society which is removed from hardscrabble survival.
#86: B. Cur, you’re starting to sound more and more like Occidentalism every day.
Enjoy your time in Korea. You’re a credit to your race, sir.
It’s the same for the Irish! Should the Irish have stayed poor for the benefit of Irish-Americans and their romantic notions of the past?
So are you, mjw.
B. Cur, why do you profess such concern for the suffering of Koreans past when you obviously care not a fig for the suffering of Koreans present? Your moral hypocrisy is astounding!
Instead of spending all your spare time blogging, why don’t you do something useful with it, like some pro bono work for Koreans or foreign migrant workers here who are actually alive today and could actually benefit from your grandiloquent concern?
At the very least, why don’t you do some research on why nearly a year after the gigantic monstrosity known as “Chongno Town” opened on P’imat-gol, a majority of the shops on the ground level remain vacant, and teams of marketeers are standing on Chongno every day trying to convince people to move into the building’s empty offices and apartments? And once you’ve looked into that, you can use your legal expertise to explain to us all why another planned 24-story high-rise right across from Chongno Town will actually be to the greater benefit of the many, rather than to the narrow economic benefit of the few?
I’m not trying to be contrary, but honestly, P’imat-gol holds no real charm for me. I recognize that others might disagree, but am I wrong for not liking it as it is, or for wanting it to change? Should I feel bad if I prefer an alternative environment to the one that is there presently?
And what of Koreans – can it really be said that they disparage change? Most Koreans I know unhesitatingly want to live in as modern an environment as possible.
#91: “Am I wrong for not liking it as it is, or for wanting it to change?”
Well, do you live there? If not, what makes your opinion important than the people who DO live there? I’ve lived in the area for over ten years and don’t like the way it’s changing. Neither did the owners of this restaurant who were FORCED to move by gangsters:
http://www.kingbaeksu.com/bbs/.....&no=59
I personally think the part behind Kyobo has a lot of character even today, and is certainly better than what they’re done with Chongno Town on the next block over. That building is the probably the ugliest thing I’ve ever seen in Chongno.
If that’s “change,” then no thanks, bud.
I don’t think that my opinion is ‘more important’ than someone else’s, whether they live there or not, but I hold it nonetheless. I respect that you don’t like that building, but don’t expect different developers will repeat that design throught the redevelopment, er, dude.
I know this question means nothing in the Berkeley worldview, but are the people we’re talking about owners, or tenants of the real estate in question? One can own a restaurant, but if the restaurant is a tenant of real estate owned by a third party, one’s tenancy is basically at the sufferance of the property owner in accordance with law and the terms of a lease agreement.
You say you’ve “lived in the area” for 10 years, as if that gives you some rights. Are you a property owner?
In my experience, gangsters are brought in by property owners frustrated at extra-legal behaviors — such as squatting — by people claiming natural rights such as I’ve been here all my life! where they have no legal rights. Are you sure that’s not what happened with the restaurant?
KB,
I really like your picture and I agree fully with your choice of title. Certainly, replacing an old building with a new one can only be described, by those who really know what’s what, as RAPE. You’re right on it, man.
Where the fat gangsters like Nazis? How would you describe the cop you met?
What’s the name of the Internet rule that says that as soon as you try to be smart you’ll make a spelling mistake?
“Where” should have been “were.”
#94: Brendon, I can only hope you’re playing dumb. What happens is over a long period of time the developer tries to buy up all the lots in an area it wants to develop. It offers what it thinks is a fair price for each property but many owners may not agree on what that fair price is, or may simply not what to sell at all. That is the current situation in Ch’ongjin-dong, for example, so things may get ugly before too long. I heard a story that development of the Samsung Securities building at Chonggak was held up for several years because one lone haraboji refused to sell his place there. I don’t know what happened to him but obviously he was gotten rid of at some point.
JD, I wrote that article after a gangster tried to take my $600 Nikon camera away from me, and anyway, the title is a pun. I do appreciate your rapier-like wit nonetheless.
Sure — that’s how redevelopment process works. When a certain percentage of owners agrees to the redevelopment plan, the ones who hadn’t agreed yet or hadn’t sold yet can be condemned and forced to move. It’s the law. It’s the law in the US, too.
But you’re not answering the question. Are the shopowners also owners of the properties they inhabit? Few are, in my experience.
#98: Some of the shopkeepers are on leases but some of them also own their own buildings. There are a variety of different arrangements.
YOU haven’t answered my question about the issue of the apparent oversupply of commercial office space in Chongno-1-ga as evidenced by the many empty stores and offices almost a year after Chongno Town opened, and why the need to build another 24-story high-rise right across the street from Chongno Town outweighs displacing a large number of shopkeepers who on the whole would rather not leave, to say nothing of the heritage value of the area.
It seems to me that the development of the section of P’imat-gol behind Kyobo is merely development for development’s sake and is not actually addressing a real demand for more office space in the area.
Scott, in consideration of questions having not yet been answered:
You wrote in #84 that ‘most Koreans know…that their country has essentially sold its soul to the devil of hyperdevelopment’, to which I wrote in #91 ‘And what of Koreans – can it really be said that they disparage change? Most Koreans I know unhesitatingly want to live in as modern an environment as possible.’
Again, most Koreans I know want change – they want to live and work in as luxurous and comfortable an environment as they can afford, and their preference is for newly-developed properties. Can you really say that ‘most’ Koreans feel that modern environments are a negative?
You obviously haven’t ever signed a lease for commercial space if you think there’s an oversupply of office buildings in the Central Business District.
There is definitely demand for more, and better, space in that neighborhood. As for why Chongno Town appears to be a failure, that can be summed up in four words: Wrong building, bad timing.
That’s not an office building. It’s a “luxurious” residential building in the guise of mixed-use residential/commercial officetel. The units above the third floor can hardly be imagined fit for an office. It’s also priced too high and came on line at a time when the market got frozen by Roh Moo Hyun’s war on the property speculators.
There is another officetel about two blocks from there called “Officia”. It was finished a year earlier, with units tailored expressly for smaller offices instead of rich-guy “stabbin’ cabin” pieds à terre — that building is chock full, with rising rents. Right building, right time.
With more office space in the neighborhood (i.e., when other buildings are erected over Pimatgil) we will probably see Chongno Town fill up too. Especially if the unit prices come down a bit. Come to think of it, you make it seem like a pretty good time to see about renting there.
#100: “They want to live and work in as luxurous and comfortable an environment as they can afford, and their preference is for newly-developed properties.”
Yeah, sure, but the amount of personal sacrifice required to reach and maintain that kind of lifestyle here is tremendous and available really only to an elite minority. I taught university here back in ‘96-’97 and then again in ‘06-’07 and the difference in students’ attitudes towards the future was striking. These days they’re terrified of the competitive rat race facing them as soon as they graduate, and they know that it will be tough indeed to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle their parents did (what 25-year-old college grad has W100 million to put down on a basic two-bedroom apartment, unless perhaps if mom and dad can help them out?). I didn’t mind Kangnam being the place where the wealthy lived and most of Kangbuk being cheap but also fairly funky, but now Kangbuk is becoming just like Kangnam in terms of real-estate prices and rent and whatnot. Yes, the developers are making money for now, but Kangbuk is also losing a lot of its soul and character and that’s what I’m talking about.
#101: “Wrong building, bad timing.”
At last we finally seem to agree on something.
Frankly those glass and steel buildings that are popping up all over jongno now sicken me..In a city as ugly as seoul Jongno used to be(and still is to a much lesser extent) a breath of fresh air(not literally of course- you have to go up to the mountains for that).
like Scott, I have lived in the area for over 9 years and there are not too many other parts of this city I would even contemplate living in because most parts are simply too ugly, depressingly drab and soul destroying… This go,go, go mentality of putting up an uninspiring building as quickly and cheaply as possible, then tearing it down 15-20 years later when it looks old and shitty creates an environment of constant noise, disruption to both residential and commercial life(with never any compensation of course to shopkeepers when they can’t even get in to their shops because there is a big pit outside it)..there is not a day of the week when the buzzsaws are not splitting the air around here from early morning till nightfall- and on more than one occasion even right through the night in the mad race to finish the building-in one case this went on for 3 months constantly- day and night without any concern for the impact it had on those who lived around here and the detrimental effect it had on their wellbeing. And for what? so a “new” hanok could be built and japanese and chinese tourists come and take photos of the “traditional” Korean house, dress up in hanboks and then make kimchii before being quickly vanned out of there so the next load of stooge tourists can come in for their authentic slice of real korea. Another example is for 6 MONTHS we had to put up with constant digging, drilling and jackhammering(day, night and sundays too) whilst they put in “walking night lights” into the ground so these same stooge tourists could stroll along the romantic, charming Kye dong gil at night(the streetlights had served the locals well enough for God knows how long)..Calls made to Jongno city office to complain about this hell were simply fobbed off..
If you can’t notice coffee bean and chain restaurants and shops eroding the character of a place like Jongno gu then you have to be semi retarded..What irks me is that locals have no say or sway over how their area is being transformed weekly right in front of them. Case in point a deokpogi ajumah who had had the same shop for over 30 years and was loved by all the school kids and locals, to my dismay after seeing her there 2 fridays ago after picking up my son from his piano class, went down to anguk station 2 days later and she was gone with a sign on her fridge for the council to pick it up. She used to complain to my wife that the 800000 won a month rent was killing her(this place was tiny) now there is a newer, more sterile shop there selling exactly the same stuff) and I overheard the ajummahs whose job it was to clean the place up that the new renter was paying 1500000 a month- kind of a hefty increase. People are being forced out of here as the kangnam types come and buy everything up
So Brendan Carr, the simple point you are failing to grasp in this is the way people, their lifestyles and livelihoods are just being chewed up and spat out in a mad scramble to make property values go as artificially high as they can, and the very heart and soul is being displaced by a bland, generic kangnam north of the river.. Why shouldn’t Scott be moved by that? Actually, I pity you and your parched soul(and go ahead, I am sure you will find many typos and mispelt words in here cos it is quite late, haven’t you gotten anything better to do?)..and by the way I have no intention to reply to you, i don’t actually read Marmot, this link was sent to me though so i read it..
“In my experience, gangsters are brought in by property owners frustrated at extra-legal behaviors — such as squatting — by people claiming natural rights such as I’ve been here all my life! where they have no legal rights. Are you sure that’s not what happened with the restaurant?”
I have spoken first hand with people in an area eyed by developers, and the owners refused to sell their property later experienced vandalism in the form of broken windows, smashed doors, and damage to cars. Some of them joined the squatters and refused to leave. I don’t know how the owners were removed in the end, but there are high rises there now.
King Baeksu’s message is right that much more needs to be done to protect the charming places of the past, though few will be willing to bore through the six-inch-thick layer of arrogance and angry prose to find that message.
King Baeksu, were the restauranteurs the owners or tenants of the building in the photo?
I think it’s sad that they had to leave, but if they were tenants and they knew the pink slip was coming, it might have been better to spend their energies on finding a suitable spot for relocation. Koreans stay loyal to restaurants for the food, not the building, and I’m sure most loyal customers would have been willing to go an extra block or so for the same delicious food they’d always enjoyed. If you’re worried that “in 20 years everyone will lament there’s no more [some such food]” then that’s important.
#104: “King Baeksu’s message is right that much more needs to be done to protect the charming places of the past, though few will be willing to bore through the six-inch-thick layer of arrogance and angry prose to find that message.”
You will note that all I did at the top of this thread was link to an article that I translated without even leaving any personal commentary to the story myself. And all I encountered in return after letting people read that story was sarcasm, haughty dismissal of the story or mostly just indifference.
I actually find it hard to bore through to any message here on this site other than a lot of self-interested noise.
Scott, I’m glad you agree that people want comfortable, modern (and among Koreans, frequently, ‘luxurious’) environments in which to live. You’ve now taken up the idea that, this accepted, such housing is too expensive. Please bear in mind that I did also use the expression ‘as…as they can afford’.
I agree that the price of homes has increased dramnatically, and currently poses a problem for many of those looking to buy. I also believe that, through an either smooth or rough process, this market imbalance will eventually correct.
But that’s another issue, is it not? Or, are you saying that, if leveled and then replaced by ‘affordable’ (whatever that might be) housing, the redevelopment of P’imat-gol would be alright?
#106: “I also believe that, through an either smooth or rough process, this market imbalance will eventually correct.”
Nothing like a little “creative destruction” to sort things out, eh?
“Or, are you saying that, if leveled and then replaced by ‘affordable’ (whatever that might be) housing, the redevelopment of P’imat-gol would be alright?”
You’re joking, right? We ARE talking about central Seoul, after all. There’s nothing affordable about it and won’t ever be.
What I AM saying at this point is that people can read that JoongAng article I first linked to and draw their own conclusions on the matter. I actually grew tired of this issue quite a long time ago, but thought that merely providing some factual information on it to people by translating that article might be of some use.
Yes, I admit that my idealism sometimes foolishly gets the better of me.
I’m sure if you got the real story from the first-hand contacts, what you’d find is that they refused to sell, hoping to get more money from the developers — which is their right — and then found themselves losing the game of “chicken”, ending up getting their properties condemned once enough of their neighbors’ properties had been acquired.
Once the properties are condemned, the owners who refuse to leave become squatters themselves — their legal rights to remain having been terminated by the condemnation process.
When I look at post #16, I see a bunch of insults and no link. In post #19 there is a link and more insults. Now who is being “disingenuous”?
#110: “Now who is being “disingenuous”?”
I was referring to my lack of commentary on the article itself on my own site to which I linked.
As for my initial cheeky comments on this thread, so sue me for playing by house rules. I don’t expect much rational or even-handed debate here, frankly.
In any case, this thread has gone over 100 comments unlike the orginal post on the related topic that got exactly ZERO comments:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....-in-korea/
I’m willing to take a few personal hits if it means raising greater awareness of an important issue.
People keep saying I’m self-important and arrogant, but actualy there’s nothing I’d like more than to focus on the issues rather than myself, believe it or not.
What I wonder is why people keep making this a personal issue when it certainly isn’t my own intention?
I have my own theories as to why, but frankly I just don’t care anymore.
Happy blogging, y’all.
Re. #101: From The Korea Times (14 March 2008):
“The Seoul metropolitan area had 21,724 unsold apartments in January, up 7,100 from the previous month, while the number of unsolicited homes in provincial areas increased by 4,017 over the one-month period.
With mounting unsold apartments, many construction firms, particularly smaller ones based in provincial areas, went bankrupt. The number of builders that went bankrupt totaled 57 during the first two months of the year, up 50 percent from the same period last year.
An official at the Construction Association of Korea, a lobbying group for construction firms, said if the number of unsold apartments continue to pile up at a current pace, more than 200 builders will be out of business by the year’s end, urging the government to support the construction industry.”
Hey, everybody, I have a good idea! Let’s dump a couple thousand more officetel units on the market in Chongno, since that’s obviously what the market needs right now!
Those poor developers need all the help they can get, right?
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