About 10 days ago, William Kapoun — a 26-year-old American English teacher living in Haebangchon — was badly burned when a fire broke out at his apartment. He was reportedly left with third-degree burns over 70% of his body.
Unfortunately, his employer — Bulam Elementary School — reportedly says it’s under no obligation to provide him insurance coverage.
Anyway, William is looking at about US$130,000 in medical bills. His family is in a rough financial situation, and without insurance, he needs help. His friends and family have set up a website where you can send donations. Head on over and help the guy out.
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114 Comments
His webpage is moving pretty slowly and wouldn’t open for me.
Anyone in Korea can make a wire transfer:
KB Bank
794002 04 03 1635
Warren Franklin-William Fund
Also, there’s a facebook group with updates, donation information, and pics:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8730028742
Too late for William, unfortunately, but is it possible for foreigners to purchase private health insurance? I imagine this blog has readers who are similarly un- or underinsured.
Perhaps our resident attorney can answer this, but I thought employers have to provide medical insurance coverage in this country.
in a worst case scenario, would it be possible (and feasible) to transfer him to u.s. base or to the states? i’m sure korean hospitals are more than qualified by i wonder if he could get better (perhaps cheaper) treatment in the states. just curious.
i know this was in koreatimes but has any korean-language media picked up on this? if word got out to the general public, i’m sure the public will respond kindly. at minimum, it would raise awareness about the treatment english instructors face.
“if word got out to the general public, i’m sure the public will respond kindly.”
Yeah, the same Korean public that denied him his insurance. The same lying, stealing Korean public. Sure, they’ll get right on it.
well, it was the school that denied him insurance, not the public. even if the general public was cold, why would you want to limit the fund to a limited community. even if you only get one korean person to chip in, that’s few more dollars to his fund. and like i stated above, at minimum, it brings awareness to the bad conditions teachers face.
The “Korean public” denied him insurance? I’ll ask some of my coworkers why they all did that.
If you read the article, it says that for his very small workload, the law doesn’t need to cover him. When I was in highschool and I worked part-time at a grocery store (for drastically less than what they are paying this guy), by your logic the lying, stealing US public denied me my insurance?
MrMao, a little angry at Korea/Koreans today are we?
from what i hear, alot of the public school programs (particularly the after-school ones) classify their employees as independent contractors. they offer an e-2 visa, but don’t offer insurance, pension, or any of the other goodies that seemingly should come with such a job.
these are the same programs that are famous for evading korean taxes by forcing the employee to open up a bank account and then hand it over to the recruiter. the recruiter then has all of the monthly revenue earned from the program transferred to the newly opened account, later transferring the employee’s actual pay (~40% of revenue) into a separate account.
When I was once an English teacher, after about 6 months into a 1 year contract, I asked why I don’t have med insurance. The small school said that they will pay 50% as per law if I register for it. I inquired about the insurance and found out that I’d have to pay half of the six months back pay and then of course half of the next 6 months…I decided to wing it and go without.
Coming back to Korea a few years later as company employee, they paid for full medical insurance and an annual check up to value of 400,000won along with all Korean employees. On the check up day, I’d never been put through so many medical tests in my life! Drinking a croncrete like substance to x-ray my stomach, going into a nuclear x-ray machine to check my lungs, getting a blinding photograph of my eye after ace-ing the eye test in Korean, not to mention all the blood they took! Afterwards I was wishing I went without insurance!
Koreans do this check up annually…none of my foreign managers went…explaining they only need to it once every 4 years.
He has to sue whoever is responsible for the fire for damages if he can. How else can he raise that kind of money for medical expenses?
I was wondering about his situation and how he didn’t have insurance. So, you’re right. If he was there as a contractor or if the school was small enough, they could weasel out of the insurance requirement.
#11, this isn’t america. You can’t go around suing everyone. You might consider that the fire may actually be his fault too. And often young people choose not to have insurance anyway, especially young american men that feel invincible. Of course it’s horrible what happened, but he should’ve prepared better.
Part-time employees (15 or fewer working hours per week) are not covered by mandatory employer-contributed health insurance.
However, ALL lawful residents of Korea, including E-2 visa holders and the unemployed, may purchase cover from the National Medical Insurance Plan through their local district office. Itaewon residents through Yongsan-gu, Kangnam residents through Seocho-gu, Kangnam-gu, etc.
In provincial areas, the local authority is the shi (city) or gun (county) office.
Visitors on a tourist visa are not permitted to enroll in the National Medical Insurance Plan.
In the case of a direct purchase the insured has to bear the full premium — i.e., both the employer portion and the employee portion. It’s based on salary, with but for a W2.2-3.0 million wage earner it’s pretty nominal (~W100,000 or so) and beats not having insurance.
However, if enrolling late, be aware that the insured is required to ante up for all unpaid premiums as from the date of eligibility for cover — i.e., date of arrival. You don’t get to buy insurance just when you “need it”.
People are donating to help cover the costs, and to help him get back on his feet. It’s because foreigners ought to help each other out, rather than bitch over which worthless foreign lawyer is the least worthless, or why Bjork is an idiot. It’s not too much to ask for somebody to sacrifice the cost of a night out (or more) or a few nice meals (or more). He’s getting donations from both Korea and Indiana, where he was a student. Everybody should help out however they can.
That said, of course we’re not responsible, and we need to get to the bottom of this situation. My initial impression is that he might be s.o.l. and that his employer or his landlord might not be held accountable.
It’s possible to buy into the national health plan on your own or you can get private health insurance from a global company. From what I understand, the national insurance isn’t great for major problems.
As for getting treatment elsewhere, the cost of transport to the US would be unimaginable without insurance.
You’ve got to have the insurance here. This is not a waegook thing or a Korean thing. Everybody is in danger of fire or getting hit by a taxi or motorscooter. Until this country becomes more litigious, we’re stuck with it.
The price is really worth it. If you don’t think so, wait till the lawyers move in. Of course then we will have mor building codes, less rooms with only one outlet and more fire sprinklers and probably alot less people bringing charcoal burning stoves into their places. You also might see a nurse who not only brings you your medication but a cup of water to wash it down with.
I am going to donate at least $50.
Aren’t employers legally responsible for the people they sponsor for work visas? It should be the hagwon that is s.o.l. for not having gotten insurance.
If I were in Korea, I would organize a round-the-clock picket of Bulam Elementary School with signs in English and Korean demanding to know why they didn’t insure Mr. Kapoun and demanding that they contribute substantially to his care. Call in some media people and have them take pictures (and make sure you have permits).
there’s an intersting contarst article about korean and american healthcare written by the lady who runs ‘where the hell am i?’ the gal’s got diabetes so she wrote about the differences in treating her diabetes in korea and the us. don’t know where it is on her blog so do a search. many of you flag wavers will not be happy.
lastly, of course, this is all korea’s fault, ain’t it?
‘…that his employer or his landlord might not be held accountable.’ poster
how is his employer responsible? answer: employer is korean who withheld ins to big nose on account of racism. thus, employer responsible. do i have that right?
’school was small enough, they could weasel out of the insurance requirement.’
said by a poster who hails from a country where large %s of people have no health insurance. korea manages to cover almost all of it’s citizens, the us does not. let’s keep that in mind while we try to pin blame any which way on the koreans, ok?
i’ll end this post by giving some non americans some info about the difficulty of getting and maintaining insurance in this country:
we have a hourly workers at my place of employment. they make about 11 to 12 dollars an hour where an apartment with one room will run you almost a thousand dollars a month. if the 11 dollar an hour worker insures just his or herself, then s/he’ll pay around 120 dollars a month which is expensive for such a worker, but it is ‘doable’ if you will. HOWEVER, if the 11 dollar worker wants to add just one child, then her monthly payment will jump to almost 800 dollars a month. that’s right! EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS A MONTH for health care! it’s a common situation here.
no american has any room to criticize the health care plans of other nations. it’s just plain arrogance.
Pawi, now is not the time.
#6,#18,
That’s in poor taste. This thread is about helping someone.
#13,
Could he apply for health insurance now? Would his treatment be covered?
@17
Why are we blaming the school again? If they lied to him and told him that he had insurance, then they are fair game, but such a situation hasn’t surfaced. Maybe it’s the Canadians who are so used to their country’s soc medicine that they think that no ins coverage is outrage and a reason to blame everyone who is not responsible for one’s injury/illness? The school was not responsible for his insurance. Making sure that he was covered was his responsibility, not the school’s. The school didn’t light his apt on fire.
It’s tragic and sad and I hope that people pull together for this guy, but blaming Korea or his employer makes no sense. The system is the system and not kept secret from anyone.
The website works fine. It took me 30 seconds tops to send my donation.
@20
“That’s in poor taste. This thread is about helping someone.”
Then why are people blaming korea and the school. That’s not helping anyone. That was the point of 18, btw.
“Could he apply for health insurance now? Would his treatment be covered?”
Are you serious?
QUOTABLE QUOTES vol 2 compiled by pawikirogi
‘Pawi, now is not the time.’ user-81
‘If I were in Korea, I would organize a round-the-clock picket of Bulam Elementary School with signs in English and Korean demanding to…’ user-81
‘Pawi, now is not the time.’ user-81
‘Yeah, the same Korean public that denied him his insurance. The same lying, stealing Korean public. Sure, they’ll get right on it.’ mrmao
‘aren’t you gonna tell HIM now is not the time?’ pawi to user-81
‘My initial impression is that he might be s.o.l. and that his employer or his landlord might not be held accountable.’
‘If he was there as a contractor or if the school was small enough, they could weasel out of the insurance requirement.’
‘Pawi, now is not the time.’
‘but don’t offer insurance, pension, or any of the other goodies that seemingly should come with such a job.’
‘…these are the same programs that are famous for evading korean taxes by forcing the employee to open up a bank account and then hand it over to the recruiter. the recruiter then has all of the monthly revenue…’
‘Pawi, now is not the time.’ user-81
tell us after a couple days if he needs more money.
gave him what I could afford, but might double the effort, if required.
get better, dude.
everyone give.
yeap even in the US when you are hired you either sign up for insurance provided by your employer or you do not
and if you do not the company would not have to pay for your medical bills unless you were hurt on the job
the school has no obligation legally to cover this
i am donating to the poor guy this could happen to anyone!!!
tragic
#18, “korea manages to cover almost all of it’s citizens, the us does not. let’s keep that in mind while we try to pin blame any which way on the koreans, ok?”
Are you speaking for the North as well? The dear leader is actually in the clear from any involvement in this. Personally, I don’t know of the North’s health care system, but if it is akin to their electrical system, I don’t think the lights are on in their hospitals.
Semantics aside, this is a bad situation that could happen to anyone fresh off the boat here in South Korea who doesn’t understand all aspects of full vs. part-time work in regards to health care coverage and the retirement system. Also, some of the blame is the victim’s. I know I made sure I knew all exit points of my death-trap apartment when I moved in which happens to mean my jumping balcony to balcony to escape a fire or any other dangerous situation when our single stairwell and hallway is blocked or not accessible.
We are adults and should be able to provide ourselves with what is in our best interests, even if it is not provided at our current place of employment.
also the USAF might fly the guy back for free
‘Are you speaking for the North as well?’
man, just pathetic!
#24,
What about this quote?
“#6,#18,
That’s in poor taste. This thread is about helping someone.”
#26,#28,
Get a room.
I looked over at Dave’s ESL Cafe to see if there was more information about this case, and the posters there seem to be saying that Bill (or is it Will?) Kapoun is being enrolled in the National Medical Insurance Plan. It would seem — although it’s not directly stated — that some government actor took interest and attended to the enrollment.
Back premiums are owed, but I’m sure they’re being waived in the national interest, or somebody has dug into his pocket and paid up on his behalf. Maybe that’s coming out of the fund-raising.
However, someone enrolled in Korea’s National Medical Insurance Plan is not unburdened by such fact. Insurance covers only part of treatment costs (usually 50-70%) and there are some things (skin grafts, it’s said) which are not covered at all. Therefore, the monetary needs will still be significant.
Litigation could be a factor in improvement of standards, but won’t be because of two glaring omissions (there I go again) from Korea’s damage system: (i) There is no concept of punitive damages allowed, so the awards are limited simply to costs, which reduces the economic incentive to be more careful; and (ii) Clawing assets away from judgment debtors is really hard. So court judgments are often smaller than one would get in the US, Canada, or Australia, and furthermore are uncollectible.
If someone is liable to Bill Kapoun for the fire, that someone’s liability would be would be for his considerable treatment costs plus the net present value of his lost wages for his remaining working life.
This is a young man, so his remaining working life is long — maybe 40 years to retirement age 65. That’s 480 months.
Say he’s deemed 70% disabled. The award is easy to forecast: W2.2 million x 70% x 480 months x NPV deflator x blame ratio. The exact NPV deflator I don’t know, but that looks like lost wages with a net present value of W250 million or so if 100% liability is placed on whoever caused the fire.
Contributory negligence is often imputed by the court. Let’s say the court assesses a blame ratio of 70% tortfeasor, 30% Kapoun (for not having a fire alarm, not leaping from his window, whatever — split the baby is a guiding principle). That W250 million check for lost wages becomes W175 million.
If treatment costs not covered by insurance are W120 million, the award would probably be in the W300-350 million neighborhood. Additionally, Bill would be awarded a sum to cover his expected future medical needs — also discounted to net present value.
In a case like this, an insurance company would probably offer an immediate payout of something like W150-250 million, to avoid the litigation over blame ratio. But that money would be available right now. Otherwise, litigation may be expected to take a year at the first trial level, up to another year at the appellate level, and there’s the possibility of an appeal to the Supreme Court.
There are no million-dollar payouts under this kind of system, and no plaintiff’s bar feeding on outsized judgments. There are personal injury attorneys, of course, but they generally pressure for settlement because outcomes are so predictable.
In the case the tortfeasor is uninsured, there is a problem because in the case of an apartment fire, the tortfeasor has also lost nearly all of his or her possessions too. The apartment — the major store of wealth here — loses a not-inconsiderable portion of its value, especially if the building is not recoverable. Without insurance, and also facing personal damages, an individual tortfeasor probably will disappear or declare bankruptcy.
All of this is for the understanding of the Marmot’s Hole readers, and offered as an illustration of why donating to Bill Kapoun is a worthwhile act of charity. He’s facing profound burdens for the rest of his life and there is no magical support apparatus to help him — just the kindness of strangers.
Mr. Mao, Pawi, you’re each fined $100 for unsportsmanlike conduct. Your fines are payable immediately in your local currencies to either of the following bank accounts.
#21:
“Why are we blaming the school again?”
“The school was not responsible for his insurance. Making sure that he was covered was his responsibility, not the school’s. The school didn’t light his apt on fire.”
I thought visa sponsors were responsible for the costs incurred by the person they’re sponsoring. I thought it included things like this, but I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know.
And if this is school-provided housing and it turns out that the fire and injury are the result of it being a firetrap, they should be responsible for putting him up in a place like that.
#23: “‘aren’t you gonna tell HIM now is not the time?’ pawi to user-81″
Yeah you’re right. It’s unfair to criticize you and say nothing about what MrMao said in #6 about the Korean public. Yeah, #6 sounds like knee-jerk Korean bashing that was against the helpful spirit of the post. I didn’t say anything because #7 and #8 already dealt with him, but I got on your case for saying something I thought was just as inappropriate. Sorry.
Visa sponsors take responsibility for the liabilities of the person they’re sponsoring — i.e., for damages to third parties.
My understanding is that if he pays all premiums from the date he was eligible for coverage he can apply for Korean National Health Insurance now and be covered for expenses incurred thereafter. Though this does not cover the entire bill, it should help quite a bit. He should also contact the hospital’s social worker/welfare department (사회복지팀) to see what assistance can be offered.
Best of luck to the man and his family caring for him.
Which hospital is he at? The level of care at large hospitals for international clientel varies greatly. (as I understand)
As for some other information on the healthcare system for interested readers. (I have a slightly unique perspective as a frequent user of Korean health care, while my employer refused to properly insure me, and have done a medical elective at Yonsei hospital)
As many know there is no obligation for a hospital to treat someone unless they can prove they can cover the costs, unlike Australia where for emergency cases you can be treated for free immediately or in America you have to be treated until stable at which point you may be transfered elsewhere and I am not sure but I think the first hospital may try to gain compensation.
However the cost for the for the hospital beds in crowded 4 and 6 people rooms are much lower than in US or Australia (except that medicare should cover your costs in Australia).
I think Korean insurance covers 70% not 50% (Not completely sure)
If he contacts the US state department (which I assume his family would have done) they may be in a position to assist, especially regarding repatriation.
Another good person to contact would be Dr. John Linton at Yonsei Severance hospital as he and his administrator are particularly good at making the hospital bills of those in hardship shrink. (although you wouldn’t know from all of the unhappy and occaisonally ungrateful internationals who complain at the cost of health care)
As for the treatment in Korean hospitals, meh. The good hospitals are world class or world leading in certain areas. And considering the number of house fires and plastic surgeons in Korea I guess they would be pretty good at this. I don’t know about smaller regional hospitals. The main problem may be the Korean doctors treat the patient without any real communication, this is more of a cultural thing because they don’t expect to have to explain themselves when the patient won’t properly understand anyway. Korean patients tend to accept this and some even prefer it. I know several otherwise excellent doctors that behave this way. This is further complicated by the language barrier problems of doctors over 40yo have with international patients. So you may be treated without ever being told what is wrong, sometimes you may even be avoided on rounds. However younger doctors as a rule have excellent English.
Sorry if this appeared garbled, If I can afford to donate I will. And for those in Korea if you find out his hospital a get well soon card mey be nice as hospitals can be very depressing places as he is undoubtedly the only international in his ward. Possibly someone might mention to his hospital the excellent promotional benefits of his accident as showing there willingness to help the community, possibly the may waive some portion of his medical costs to get some “good news” publicity in the local media.
Giving an E-2 without health care is immoral and disgusting. I stand by what I said. The public that turn a blind eye to abuse of foreigners in Korea are responsible. All of them. Korea is a democracy, people can change the system. Koreans have an immature democracy and are unfamiliar with the idea that laws are made by the people to protect the people, not just to ensure the positions of the powerful. Koreans aren’t able to see past their own noses, as long as they themselves are all right they care little for others.
user-81, i only wrote what i wrote to respond to those expats whose knee-jerk reaction is to blame the korean.
this is more of a cultural thing because they don’t expect to have to explain themselves….’ poster about doctors to patients in korea
don’t know where you’re from but here in the states, it USED to be the same way.
mrmao, how much have you contributed to the fund?
with that much contempt, why are you in that shitty country?
anyway, i hope you feel great using this tragedy to talk shit about korea.
instead of using this forum to bring awareness of this situation and how we as a blog community can help this guy, you fucking hijack this post to make it us v. them issue. you are so awesome!
Pawi,
One’s ability and right to decry an injustice is not limited by one’s nationality. Americans are just as capable of leveling intelligent criticism about healthcare as anyone else. To think otherwise is to see only peoples’ passports and not their ideas. That’s called being prejudiced, and it’s not nice.
That said, I’ll echo the sentiments of others on this thread: less finger-pointing and more wallet-opening, please.
Pawi - Absolutely, and for some doctors here it is the same way. But distrust of the medical system, improved education of the public regarding healthcare and the change from a paternalistic doctor centred system to to an autonomy respecting patient-doctor partnership has changed this. (If it sounds wanky it is because I am using buzz words from my ethics lectures)
The thing is people from different medical traditions find this hard to deal with and conveys a sense of mistrust. Reading about William’s case it doesn’t seem to be this way. But it was more of a message for others to ask questions if they are not being told what they want.
from what i am told asking for a second opinion in korea is taboo
but i am sure its like that in any socialized healthcare based country
Does anyone know if the donations are deductible on your taxes? I know certain donations in Korea such as political donations can be used as a tax write off.
How about this worthy cause?
During my time in Korea, I’ve had my share of good experiences with doctors and not-so-good experiences. In general, though, contrary to stereotype, I have found them very willing to explain things in detail to my satisfaction without any resentment or paternalism.
#33: “Visa sponsors take responsibility for the liabilities of the person they’re sponsoring — i.e., for damages to third parties.”
I thought outstanding bills were one of the liabilities.
#35: “Giving an E-2 without health care is immoral and disgusting.”
I agree. But that’s not the Korean public’s fault that the school didn’t do it. #38 was right. (Did you see that, Pawi?)
#39 is right: less finger-pointing and more wallet-opening, please.
re: 42. According to the facebook group, no. But they are working on it.
Sorry for twisting the discussion towards Korean healthcare system. I just thought I would illustrate some of the pitfalls of the system. As people don’t find out until they are already in big trouble. I hope I stressed that Korean doctor are at a similar level with ours, and more than likely had to study so much harder. 10% of graduates each year fail the licensing exam. Where as in Australia I think I would actively have to try to fail.
In my time I met several international patients who had life changing diagnoses during their time in Korea. In general they were happy with their treatment, but having a medical emergency or crisis in other country will always be more traumatic. If only for the lack of your support network. I think I would much rather need hospital care in Korea than in England.
“Giving an E-2 without health care is immoral and disgusting.”
Did you read the article? He worked less than 15 hours per week. It’s a part time job. It’s not immoral or disgusting that he wasn’t given insurance coverage. It’s life. The guy is American. Getting covered was his resonsibility, not the moral obligation of the Korean people or his boss.
I’m going to give some money now.
I would guess not… I don’t know about Korea, but in the States, an organization generally has to meet various registration requirements in order for donations to that charity to qualify for a deduction. I would think that Korea would have some sort of similar system in place.
He works 15 hours a week and he’s expecting medical insurance lol.
I’d donate if i had money but unless the fire somehow spontaneously started its all his fault.
What I am curious about is that since he was without insurance, and probably without a credit card, yet still in dire need of immediate medical attention, did the hospital accept him?
let me clarify, he obviously was accepted, but were they obstructive about it at the hospital, and if so what did he haveto do to get around it? (this is in light of the 민여들의 수다 girl who was raped and denied medical coverage without an upfront payment)
He probably wasn’t mistaken for a Russian prostitute. That was her problem if I recall.
Okay Brendon, #33! I’ll amend what I said. Bring in the lawyers and then wait for them to work for about 100 years to start putting the fear into building owners. Then we’ll get the building codes, fire sprinklers, etc…
I’ve gone through a wife, daughter and a close friend who have all spent stints in hospitals here. The doctors are generally quite good and there is always someone who can offer English diagnosis if you simply ask. It never hurts to ask a church, any church pastor or priest for assistance. They are generous and seemingly tireless. The care at hospitals is, for the most part, shockingly inadequate, at least by western standards. My friend nearly had to have his leg amputated because of lack of attention to his wound and bandages.
Now, in Korea there aren’t nurses hovering and periodically coming in to check on you. The family is expected to do this. But if you are from somewhere else and have no family attending you this can be a startling set of horrors.
I’m glad to hear that this man’s family has come to help him. I know some people have no family, even Koreans, and some just can’t afford to come.
It’s difficult enough to realize you’re seriously sick or injured. It’s another set of shocks when, as beaten up as you are, you realize you are going to have to nurse yourself back to health. You have to start refusing the pain-killers and keep your wits about you.
About 5 or 6 years ago there was a Korean student jogging in Stanley Park in Vancouver. She was mugged, raped, brutally beaten and left for dead. Someone found her and took her to a hospital where she remains in a coma to this day. As far as I know, she has not returned to Korea and at the time the Canadian federal government paid for and pledged to continue paying for her treatment while she remains in a coma at the the hospital in Vancouver.
Obviously, it wasn’t the girl’s fault she was beaten and raped, but the way some of you talk, I imagine some of you would say it was her fault for jogging in the park. Shit happens, the real question is, what are you going to do about? Blow hot air about who’s responsible or actually do something to help the poor guy out?
What about protesting to the government about employee/employer conditions for foreign nationals? Don’t you remember the warehouse fire a couple of months ago? More foreign workers (without a strong country like the US to back them up) locked in a burning building with no way to escape. They died, at least Bill still has a fighting chance.
Korea’s government may claim it’s a part of first world democracies but the way it treats it’s own people and less fortunate foreigners is more akin to a third world country and until the average Korean, you or I do something about it, it’s never going to change.
A truly sad story! Perhaps sprinklers and smoke detectors may get the attention they deserve.
The focus of some of this argument seems to be if the Korean employer is required to insure this guy because he only worked “part-time hours.” I’m just curious: was the part time job his ONLY job in Korea? I have yet to see a job posting that would fly me around the world, pay a decent monthly salary and give me housing, let alone health insurance, for 15 hours a week. Again, it doesn’t decrease his need for help; it’s just something that seems odd to me. Maybe there’s someone else that could be helping him that we don’t know about.
I posted about my horrific experiences trying to get insulin on the comment thread about the girl from the Beauties’ show talking about being attacked in her apartment (as mentioned in #55-56). I truly hope he finds a better standard of medical care than I did.
Making my donation shortly.
RE- post #51 : I agree with and applaud you, CMM.
Guys, Pawi and Cmm are right here : this is not a ‘bad Korea’ issue’. This is a ‘one of our community has suffered a fucking bad tragedy you only usually see once a decade.’
Stop the politics.
Everyone. Please help this guy. Please donate. Please.
I know Bill from having worked with him last year. Someone asked above whether he goes by Will or Bill. I’ve heard him called both, but I believe he prefers Bill. Someone else asked which hospital he’s in. He’s Hangang Sacred Heart Hospital in Youngdeungpo-dong.
An update on the fund: I hear that between Seoul, Indiana, and Garmisch (German city where Bill worked before) the total is around $36,000 as of Wednesday afternoon.
Man, my heart goes out to this guy and his family. Send money everyone.
My cousin actually died in a suspicious fire in Seoul about ten years ago. My aunt was very wealthy and from what I hear, had a lot of connections. Despite that, nothing was resolved.
The investigator my aunt hired claimed that there were too many suspicious things that happened prior to the fire but the authorities refused to open a murder investigation. From what my mom tells me, it turns out that the building owner was very chummy with the fire chief and the police department and swept everything under the rug.
She later took legal action but nothing came out of that either. I think she got some menacing calls threatening to kill her as well.
I cant imagine a family going through this without being able to speak/understand the language.
We just created a promo banner to help raise awareness for Bill. For anyone that has a blog or site, could you please help out by adding the banner?
http://wiki.galbijim.com/Bill_Kapoun
Cheers,
Craig
How’d the fire start? How did he get burned?
Tragic accident (which I hope wasn’t the result of negligence).
I’ll be donating.
If you think about it, this could of been any expat. Anyone of you guys could of gotten in a horrible accident that at the end of the day had a huge price tag.
Korean Americans generally don’t band together to help with medical expenses, but I know in our history we’ve banded together to help with legal expenses (the frivolous pants lawsuit comes to mind). Communities who feel as if they are in the same boat tend to come together in these situations. I would venture to say that the expat community in Korea probably has similar community feelings.
If you really think about it, $100 is not that much money. You give up buying lunch for a week and going out for a weekend or two and that should be about $100. If just a thousand people (expat and non-expat alike) did that and donated, then that should cover most of Bill’s expenses.
Hey Pawi,
Sorry to be off topic, but it seems as though you are rather famous among the posters over at the “Stuff That White People Like” blog that Robert linked a couple of weeks back. Check out the comments towards the end. Some people have been saying that you are the asian supremecist who goes by “adsf”. Scroll down to the latter part of the comments.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wo.....ian-girls/
That must be kind of flattering to know that your name is widely known out in cyberspace. I don’t know…maybe it’s Netizen Kim that they are talking about. Anyways, just thought i would share that.
>>>Korean Americans generally don’t band together to help with medical expenses, but I know in our history we’ve banded together to help with legal expenses (the frivolous pants lawsuit comes to mind).
I recall reading about considerable support from Korean-American churches in Louisiana for Korean-American Katrina refugees and victims.
i think what he/she meant was that yes they may ban together to help their own but westerns many times over ban together to help everyone regardless of ethnic affiliation
I’m definitely going to donate. Poor guy.
I can understand user-81’s comments.
It’s not “a Korea issue”, but one can imagine that’s what Koreans would do in a situation like this because they’ve done it before.
Anti-US protests, which were also anti-foreigner protests, in 2002-2003 prove this.
Korean-Americans are generally exempt from the Korean hate thing, so #19 and chameleons like him really have no clue.
Koreans want us to act like them when we are here and reactions like users are part of it.
Why can’t most Koreans handle it when foreigners act like Koreans?
The next time a Korean tells a foreigner the whole when in Rome thing, they should think about what that means and if they really mean it.
All these whiners about Korea’s lack of sympathy and health insurance for part-time ESL teachers is ridiculous. Talk about heath insurance, except for United Parcel Service and a couple of other “slave-driven” blue-collar employments, I don’t know any employers in the US which offer it to their part-time workers. And even at UPS, one has to work minimum 20 hrs per week for 3 months to be eligible for one.
As a business owner in the financial sector, I also do quite a bit of business with Koreans who come to the US on E2 visas. A lot of them, own and operate small businesses. When their spouses get employed by an American company, none of them are given health insurance from US employers, unless they are employed full-time. They have to purchase expensive health insurance from a private carrier. A family of 4 would pay ~$1,000 per month for a decent policy; outrageously expensive.
A shortly after earning my undergraduate degree, I got on with a school district as a certified teacher. Since I was on the “bottom of the totem pole,” I was basically employed part-time, working 20 - 30 hrs per week. My pay was between $1,500 - $2,000 per month, much less than what an “waygook” teacher makes in Korea on E2 visa, including Mr. Kapoun working 15hrs/week. SInce I wasn’t eligible for the full benefit from the school district, I purchased health insurance on my own until I got on full-time, later on. This was at a point in my life, I thought about teaching in Korea because of the better pay. A newly certified teacher in the US spend a minimum of 70hrs per week teaching, prepping, grading tests,hw for an average of $2,500 per month. Then, they hold a portion of that $2,500 to pay for the three months in the summer. After taxes, it’s incredibly difficult to be a teacher in the US. Later I decided to get a graduate degree and get out of teaching all together.
The point of my post is taht, a lot of American workers in the US, have much worse than Mr. Kapoun in Korea. Some of the entitlement proponents here are either clueless or were whiners and complainers all their lives. IF you lives are so miserable at your host country, do something about it. Leave and find yourself a better opportunies.
I will also contribute to Mr. Kapoun’s needs.
Mao Boy, it would be better for a piece of shit like you to stay in your own country for the good of the two countries.
“from what i am told asking for a second opinion in korea is taboo
but i am sure its like that in any socialized healthcare based country”
No, it isn’t. Asking for a second opinion in Canada is no more unusual than doing so in the States. I gather that people do the same in the UK, Australia, and other advanced nations where healthcare is guaranteed to all citizens (and, in some cases, to those who happen to get hurt/sick while visiting.)
I’ve also had a lot of good experiences with doctors in Korea, at least in terms of them being willing to explain things to me. I’ve been to Dr. Linton - who I gather has a mixed reputation here among foreigners - a few times over the last eleven years or so, and have always gotten excellent treatment.
As far as this poor guy’s case, if he did have an E-2 visa, he may well have been under the impression that he had come coverage (for what it is worth in this instance.) I know other people who have had E-2 visas here - with 30 hour/week schedules - where the employer refused to provide it, or others who had to wait/argue for months to get insured by their hagwan master.
I really hope he pulls through. He’s got a very tough battle ahead of him, but from what his friends say, he’s a fighter. Like a few others have mentioned, it puts one’s own day-to-day problems and complaints in a different perspective.
I think everyone is missing the point. Instead of talking about negative subjects (that are obviously a problem in South Korea). We need to focus on sending love and support for Bill and his family. We need to keep things as positive as possible. Bill and his family want it to be that way.
According to the facebook group, there is a chance to get him home to the States. It will cost 68,000 USD and has to be paid upfront (The chance is on Monday March 10th). If you can afford a donation (everyone can, even if it is a couple of dollars) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONATE! This is a horrible tragedy and we as humans must rally around those in need.
http://www.billkapoun.com
I went over to their blog at http://savebillkapoun.blogspot.com/ and what looks like would be most helpful at this time is if they could somehow make donations tax deductible.
They are thinking of applying for a 501-C-3 tax exempt status, but I’ve actually tried those and it takes 3-6 months and $3k to process. What’s more likely is that an existing 501-C-3 can set up a fund and run the donations through their infrastructure. Does anyone work for or know of a non-profit willing to take up the cause?
#65,
I donated some money to the dry cleaner who got sued for the pants.
As far as I know, its impossible to get an E2 for part time work. Something is fishy.
#65,
I donated some money to the dry cleaner who got sued for the pants and to Mr. Kapoun as well.
#69,
As far as I know, its impossible to get an E2 for part time work. My guess is that he although he spent 15 hours in class, he was also required to keep office hours…that or he’s one of those teachers that is ‘farmed’ to 2 or 3 schools.
According to the Laura Kapoun on the facebook group, his girlfriend died yesterday.
I just checked out the facebook site which has been updated with photos. If the pictures don’t make you donate a hundred or bucks or two to help him, perhaps this will…
According to what was written there, Bill’s girlfriend who was also injured in the fire succumbed to her injuries yesterday…
non profit?
try a sizable church?
#78,
According to Immigration, there is no minimum number of work hours required to qualify for an E-2. The only time constraint relates to the length of the contract: it must be more than 90 days.
Assuming for the moment that the post on Facebook was true, I’m disappointed no mention of her was made in the KT piece. Yes, I can understand how her family might not want something like that in the papers, but surely there was a way to ensure her and her family’s privacy while noting that another human being was involved in this personal tragedy.
#80, I did. I hope he pulls through.
Come one guys, all his family received in donations from Korea was 18000$ as of yesterday. They are going through enough mental anguish as it is. They don’t need to worry about paying the bills on top of that. If you haven’t donated money, please do, whether it’s 5000 or 100000 won. I’m donating more.
Wow. That’s a lot of money.
If the tax thing is a problem for you, then just keep it. If you’re in a 30% bracket, and you were going to donate $100, don’t let anything stop you from donating $70.
As one of my more prickish visitors asked on my site, what are people back home doing? I know the Facebook site is involving people from Indiana University, but I hope fund- and awareness-raising over there is as active as it is here.
Regarding the $18,000 they have, I suspect that’ll increase a lot in the next day or two b/c they also mentioned it takes a few days for personal checks to clear and for Paypal donations to get organized. I’d like to think that expats in Korea could easily raise that much by getting the word out. And it looks like people are organizing fund-raising events in Seoul (not sure how if they’ll be able to pull anything off).
I think each person can do a little better than 5,000 won. People have no qualms about dropping 20,000 for a pizza, 30,000 at the Wa Bar, or 50,000 for a night out on the town, so I don’t think it’s too much to ask for people to put things in perspective. Then again, a few people on Dave’s, on here, and on my posts have been more focused on blaming people or calling the guy an idiot than actually trying to help.
About the girlfriend, I just got an email from a trusted source who explained that yes, the girlfriend — who was braindead for some time — sadly passed away yesterday. About the lack of mention in the press, the email explained that the girlfriend’s family did not wish for media coverage, they’d like to grieve in private, and friends of Bill have worked hard to respect their request. I convey what he told me to you, and that’s all I’m going to say about it other than I extend my condolences.
If somebody asked me what my definition of hell is, I could find no better example than what this guy is going through. You don’t need to have known Bill to feel absolutely awful about this. I donated this morning (just used the KB bank account number to transfer that’s on his website, it was very easy to do!) and hope that everybody finds some time to help him out. Get well, Bill.
# 87,
I’m not worried about the taxes. I was responding to a question on the blog that Bill’s family started. They were the ones looking into a 501-c-3.
I know. It was a general, not a specific “you”. Sorry for the mis-implication.
The girlfriend was Korean? That perhaps explains why her family requested she not be mentioned in the article.
It would be better if I just stayed home? Why? Can’t take the criticism? Koreans routinely subject foreigners to double standards and racism. It is systemic. Korea’s retention of ridiculous 19th century notions of racial purity are out of place in the modern world. One should not be allowed to sponsor a visa without providing health care and too many employers in Korea take advantage of foreigners’ weak positions in Korea to use and abuse them. This case is an illustration of the perils of Korean racial discrimination. Until Korea starts treating foreigners as equals, Koreans will always have conflict with foreigners. But I guess, in the end, that’s what Koreans really want deep down. It sure works for the North.
And, yes, I am Canadian and yes, I believe in socialized medicine.
MrMao — Remind me again how this was a racial issue?
# 93,
That was a little bit uncalled for. Let’s just respect the family’s request for privacy without those kinds of speculatory assumptions.
I have seen time and time again how hagwon owners and elementary schools use this “after-school” nonsense as a way to employ foreigners cheaply. It has created a sub-class within a sub-class; foreigners without healthcare and foreigners with. It’s a loophole that is being used to deprive foreigners of, what is for all Koreans, the basic human right of access to medical care. I guess you Americans wouldn’t understand.
97, I think you missed my meaning.
Anyway, it’s something that ought to have been mentioned in the news article . . . or at least on Dave’s, since that’s where the story broke in the first place.
Well, regardless, I’m done on this topic. Brings out the best and the worst in people, apparently.
It doesn’t “deprive foreigners” of access to medical care. It relieves employers, by crooked means, of the burden of contributing to the cost of medical care for their foreign employees.
ALL E-2 VISA HOLDERS, as well as other lawful residents including students at Korean universities, have the right to march over to their district office to subscribe for the National Medical Insurance Plan. I’ve heard tell, although I cannot say for certain, that unlawful residents are also permitted to subscribe.
I donated.
Me too. I empathize with the guy so I donated. Whether he knew about health insurance or not, which as Brendon says he could’ve easily gotten for himself in Namyoung-dong, at that age you really don’t think you’ll need it. Even though it’s pretty cheap, at the age of 26 I probably wouldn’t have gotten it either.
As to this idea that health care is some sort of basic human right: give me a break.
98: “It’s a loophole that is being used to deprive foreigners of, what is for all Koreans, the basic human right of access to medical care.”
This is employer vs. employee, not Korean vs. foreigner. Before health care was made universal, many Korean companies used all kinds of tricks and loopholes to avoid paying for medical insurance for all their employees. Their Korean employees.
#99, read #89.
‘Some people have been saying that you are the asian supremecist who goes by “adsf”. Scroll down to the latter part of the comments.’
no way to disprove such rumors other than to say i’ve never once (including today) been to the web site you’ve mentioned. excluding my posts here at the hole, here is where i have posted recently:
1. i wrote a really nasty post to ampotan knowing he would not post it but would read it. i think that was about two weeks ago, maybe three.
2. somewhere in the same time frame, i posted at turnbull’s site congradulating him on his brillant explanation of the korean conundrum ‘은/는’ . i think i also posted once on his site questioning him on the use of a picture that looked liked it was taken in china rather than korea though i’m not sure it was his site.
that’s about it. all those posts were signed pawi. i don’t post under any other name. those folks over there at that web site can