Five myths about the New York Philharmonic’s concert in Pyongyang, published in today’s WSJ, will resonate with many readers. It was hard to choose a favorite as they’re all on the mark, but I’ll single out #2 to quote:
- Any direct contact between North Korea and the U.S. is by definition desirable. Not if it makes things worse for the North Koreans — and it may. Kim Cheol-woong, a musician who defected from Pyongyang to the West in 2001, warned the Journal’s Melanie Kirkpatrick that “there will be educational sessions . . . [on] the triumph of Kim Jong Il’s political leadership, which resulted in the fact that even the American artistic group is coming to knock their foreheads on the floor in front of General Kim.”
Click in and read the other four.
43 Comments
All of these are true to some extent, but since Americans are usually portrayed as monsters, having them portrayed on Korean Central TV as artists and musicians with souls will have a positive effect.
Also, North Koreans may be terrified, but they’re not stupid. They can see that the Americans have no great interest in their General.
I don’t think the people of North Korea needed to see the NY Phil in concert in order to realize that we don’t have horns on our heads and pitchforks in our hands. As you said, North Koreans aren’t stupid, so they wouldn’t presume all Americans to be evil. Negative images of the US in North Korea usually depict soldiers only, not ordinary people.
In my experience, people of other countries take great pains to distinguish their feelings towards the US government from their feelings towards Americans. I believe statements to this effect have been made by North Koreans to American visitors.
“In my experience, people of other countries take great pains to distinguish their feelings towards the US government from their feelings towards Americans. I believe statements to this effect have been made by North Koreans to American visitors.”
What these people don’t get is that the American government IS the people. But of course they wouldn’t, the idea of voting for your political leaders is an alien concept.
I wonder how that works in South Korea.
Is it really? I didn’t vote for Bush either time, and I and most other American expats took great pains to distinguish ourselves from the invasion and occupation of Iraq. I was glad to be in China at the time because there seems to be less overt anti-Americanism there than in Korea.
Wedge assumes that the voting public makes their own independent decision about what they want, and then vote accordingly; rather than being told, via “perception management”, what they want, and then voting accordingly.
You mean like the Obama pillow fluffing by the MSM?
I’m sure you’re correct, although I’ve no idea what you’re talking about.
A clip from last weekend’s SNL:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZcAfVu-UpY
And Hillary’s reference to another SNL skit pulled from Youtube after NBC complained:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYxbRY8MVKc
It’s open question whether the people in those “educational sessions” actually believe what they’re told. I bet a great many, probably a solid majority, don’t.
Probably not, but the regime will recast the visit in its own favorable terms.
The same people that believe any engagement is good engagement are the same who believe diplomacy will make North Korea change. These people would be continually disappointed, if they didn’t blame in on realists.
…blame *it* on realists.
Sonagi is right. It happens in SK all the time, so why not NK too?
I remember Wesley Snipes being interviewed during his visit to Korea. When he commented that he was curious to see how his mixed race kids would be treated by Koreans, the comment went curiously untranslated.
And because foreign visitors make polite comments about Korean cuisine or culture (which they are probably find curious and are trying hard to tolerate) I’ve heard some Koreans state quite matter of factly that Korean food is so beloved worldwide that that foreigners come all the way to Korea from the four corners of the earth just to enjoy the food.
I would expect that the NK spin would be something of this order: Cultured American musicians are so impressed with the people’s paradise that they jumped at the opportunity to come here, sit at the Dear Leader’s feet and learn.
…snd beg for assylum.
” Kim Cheol-woong, a musician who defected from Pyongyang to the West in 2001, warned the Journal’s Melanie Kirkpatrick that “there will be educational sessions . . . [on] the triumph of Kim Jong Il’s political leadership, which resulted in the fact that even the American artistic group is coming to knock their foreheads on the floor in front of General Kim.”
Yes, without a doubt…and I’m sure they’ll find a way to link that to the nuclear bomb test. Nevertheless, North Koreans are not all stupid or brainwashed.
“I’ve heard some Koreans state quite matter of factly that Korean food is so beloved worldwide that that foreigners come all the way to Korea from the four corners of the earth just to enjoy the food.”
Probably not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Not all Koreans are smart, you know. Once you realize that, you’ll be able to take those kinds of comments for what they are.
I’ve read that N. Korea refers to US food aid as “tribute,” part of the sanctions enforced on the US after N. Korea defeated them in combat. Max Brooks referred to the North Koreans as being so subjugated that they would rather eat their own children (literally) than whisper a word of dissent against the ruling regime.
For me, part of the problem with perceptions about N. Korea is that the things I’ve read about the country are so far out there, it’s hard to know what to believe and what not to. I’ve read things from reputable sources that are very hard to swallow, but that seem consistent. I’m at the point where I’d believe pretty much anything about them, and that’s just poor form.
eunsung said…….
“Also, North Koreans may be terrified, but they’re not stupid. They can see that the Americans have no great interest in their General.”
Sorry Charlie, not only are they terr”o”rfied, but stupid / ignorant (take your pick)as well.
http://www.moviesfoundonline.c....._state.php
http://www.moviesfoundonline.c....._state.php
http://www.moviesfoundonline.c....._korea.php
and one more for good measure
http://www.moviesfoundonline.c.....htmare.php
Although they are currently stupid/ignorant, perhaps with proper amounts of protein etc. during formative years, their “superior” Korean genetics will allow them to understand deep concepts behind such things as fan death.
Also, with further enlightenment from their southern brethren they will grasp the reality that it is truly America that is the root of all evil in this world.
Aside from that, I hear it was a wonderful show. Wonder if I could book then for a Bar-Mitzvah ?
#16,
There’s no evidence that isolationism works either. See Cuba, Burma, etc. Engagement typically seems ineffective as well. See China, etc. The fact is nobody knows how to induce change in a tyrannical regime from the outside.
Right. Kim Cheol-woong is the slimy liar who made up stories about NK citizens note being able to hear foreign C20 music (see main article in last Marmot blog on this subject). If he tried to slip whoppers like that past, the rest of his testimony looks pretty suspicious.
Still, I guess he has to pay the bills, and victimhood always sells well in the free world.
Sorry, “slimy liar” is too much. Maybe “attention seeker”.
@#21, Piper:
Can you provide links? I did a search on Kim Cheol-woong at this site and got only one result - this entry. I’m not sure what C20 music is, but what he actually said in the Reuters interview is that ACCESS to MOST foreign music is banned. I couldn’t find the original Reuter’s interview, but here is short story on Kim Cheol-woong on a website devoted to issues of music and freedom:
http://www.freemuse.org/sw13058.asp
What is “foreign C20 music”?
Do you mean foreign 20th Century music? Why not just write such?
I do recall the Yonhap interview with this guy that ran:
Richard Clayderman . . . big WTF?
The WSJ article is a bit too slanted for my taste. I agree Mazzel should stop turning people off with his display of bloated self-importance. But I do think these kind of events have considerable impact on people, even more so on people living in a tightly controlled totalitarian society as that of NK. The more a person is cut off from the outside, the more chance that an experience that is utterly trivial by outside standards may serve as a catalyst for change in a person’s views. Kim Cheol-woong’s experience with Jazz mentioned above would be a very good example. Sure, the starving people of NK would probably not find this event of interest. But let’s not forget that if change is instigated in NK, it will not be by the poverty-stricken third of the population. It will be by either the elite third or the “middle class” third. And these people will be influenced by what exposure they get to the outside world. Let’s not forget, many of the videos that reveal the atrocious realities of NK are actually filmed by North Koreans who risk their lives in doing so. There are people who get past the propaganda.
It’s easy to mock the trifling nature of the experience of seeing (or hearing about) Americans play music in NK, but tell that to the person who is seeing it (or hearing about it) for the first time in her life.
Ever hear of “ping pong diplomacy”? How about a “poison carrot”? On balance it’s probably irrelevant if KJI takes credit for whole NY Phil trip; what’s important is that people got to see some Americans playing great music that they could appreciate. That’s a far cry from the Americans the North Koreans see in propaganda posters. I don’t understand why someone will complain about the regime shutting all windows on the world and then in the same breath insist we should have no cultural exchanges. Isolating countries (or helping them isolate themselves) has a track record of making bad leaders more powerful than any domestic opposition; witness Cuba, Iraq, Iran and of course North Korea.
A peace treaty, on the other hand, would take away the regime’s excuse for spending everything on defense, for keeping everyone in the dark about the wider world and for much of its other bad behavior/crimes and, most importantly, force changes to the official ideology and possibly weaken the influence of the military. It’s just like in Orwell’s 1984, the way Oceania needed its enemies to justify itself.
Totalitarian regimes have a great record of opening through detente, but not through isolation.
(Oh, Robert, I clicked a bunch of Google ads(: )
#23 I had a look at an AP story:
http://ap.google.com/article/A.....wD8V2135O1
in which was written
Maybe that’s a misquote from the Reuter’s article, but that’s what I was going by.
All I’m pointing out is the exaggeration those sort of reports make, although I’ll accept that possibly it was true in 2002.
I chose this article because most others were full of glowing details about the North Korean audience sniffling while listening to Arirang and how this is going to open up North Korea.
Pingpong diplomacy? Yes, the US recognized China, but we were never at war with them. China didn’t really open up to trade, tourism, and other international exchanges with the West until the death of Mao. Draw your own conclusions.
I view this trip as simply a concert, no more, no less. It certainly didn’t make things worse for the North Koreans, but it didn’t bring anything positive, other than one evening of fine music for those who watched and listened.
I’m not pro-engagement or pro-isolation. Rather, I think the best approach to dealing with North Korea begins like the Hippocratic Oath: First, do no harm.
“Timmy”, Richard Clayderman is not a Jazz pianist by any stretch of the imagination (talk about propaganda!). Clayderman is known in the U.S. mainly for the TV adverts with the pompous voice-over (no C.O.D. allowed) and he is milking the Liberace vibe, sans glitter.
That hearing Richard Clayderman’s music would cause Kim Cheol-woong to question the regime speaks volumes about the music scene in North Korea.
That article was depressing, way too negative. I guess it was some kind of backlash against all the lofty posturing that went on beforehand.
I think that looking at the concert as condoning a brutal regime is so wrong. As is the opinion that the US would be hypocritical to criticize. North Korea isn’t a child that must be put in a time out after being naughty. No engagement means no progress.
Anyways, if anyone is interested in actually seeing the effect the infiltration of outside culture can have on undermining a regime you should read “Jazz, Rock, and Rebels”
“Yes, the US recognized China, but we were never at war with them.”
We were just at war with the Chinese People’s Volunteers, right?
Maybe we can trade the subversive Clayderman for a couple dozen political prisoners.
Yes, that’s right, User-81.
Who knows? Maybe that concert will make something out of someone in NK. Remember, it only takes one man to change the world.
Don’t dis the Clayderman. For a long time, he was as popular in South Korea as Air Supply.
70s one-hit wonder Lobo (”Me and you and a dog named boo”) turned up in Taiwan when I lived there in the 1980s.
Was it the original lineup?
I always got “Lobo” and “Poco” confused.
BTW, “Lobo” also had a hit with “I’d Love you to Want Me”.
That’s right, Dogbert; Lobo was a two-hit wonder.
But those were two great songs.
I somehow associated “I’d Love you to Want Me” with another too-cool-for-North Korea outfit, Bread.
I don’t about Lobo’s family tree, but Poco had its roots in Buffalo Springfield and other seminal 1960s groups. Sadly, like the Eagles, they got cheesier as time wore on.
Sonagi, could you elaborate on your answer in #34 please?
Lorin Maazel, the NY Phil’s conductor, has an excellent 15 minute interview with Charlie Rose about the Pyongyang visit:
http://www.charlierose.com/sho.....rin-maazel
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