Profiles in stupidity, courtesy the Korea Times:
A 52-year-old man was caught for attempting to eat his landlady’s pet dog.
The man, identified as Park, took the pet Chihuahua into his room, while his 69-year-old landlady Jeon was in the bathroom. He then killed the dog and attempted to cook it at the boarding house in Jongno, Seoul, Monday afternoon.
Park tried to scorch the dog before cooking it in his room, but his clothes in the room caught fire and emitted smoke. His neighbors called the firefighters and his attempt to cook the dog was detected by neighbors and firefighters, according to police.
Police quoted Park, drunk when apprehended, as saying, I did so because I was hungry.”
He was booked on charges of theft.
(HT to reader)
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All that trouble for what, about three ounces of meat? Jesus Cristo…
The only thing they could charge him with was theft? There are no other laws he might have broken?
booked without detention. what do you have to do to get thrown into jail? I know there are a few prisons in Korea. What are most of the people in for? You’d think stealing someones dog and trying to eat it would land you a couple of days at least!
Dude, the man was HUNGRY. What kind of heartless bastard are you?
“Ajussis Ruin Everything” – metropolitician
http://metropolitician.blogs.c.....in-ev.html
On the calls for jail time: Let’s show a little perspective here. It was just a barking rat after all.
Absolutely zero respect for others and their things. Me me me! strikes again.
Reminds me of one of my all time favorite K comedies, ‘Barking Dogs Never Bite’, directed by Bong Jun-ho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....Never_Bite
Who among us has not been tempted to off a chihuahua?
We ought to be giving the man a medal.
Paris Hilton owns a chihuahua.
Paris Hilton once called Lindsay Lohan a “firecrotch.”
I blogged about Lindsay Lohan last night.
Everything is connected.
Karma.
# 1,
Your forgetting it’s not just meat it’s soup stock. Just add some scallions to the boiling water and you’re set!
wonder how long it’ll take this thread to get hijacked? who amongst us is going to be brave (stupid?) enough to take the post and/or anything written in this thread out of context?
anyway, sorry to go there.
i must admit, though, i, too, wondered why the old guy didn’t get charged with something more than mere theft.
on the other hand, it WAS just a chihuahua, as has already been alluded to. something about a medal being awarded was already mentioned.
Paris didn’t call Lindsay firecrotch. It was that greasy guy that Paris hung around with…Brandon something. Paris just giggled. Paris couldn’t have come up with something like that…
wonder what happened to that oily fellow?
stop eating dogs.
either really make it a farm to meat-packer to restaurant industry,
or stop eating dogs.
It’s one of the things that sets Korea in the back seat.
One example is constant stealing of pet dogs for consumption. These people can go to hell.
Something like this need not continue in a OECD 20 country. This happens in China, Vietnam. Wanna be like them? Go ahead.
Maybe you’ll have the south pole sticking up with the Mrs. tonight.
As the prophet Baduk said,
(I call him a prophet, because by definition, what he said came true)
2MB will force upon this country some improvements, such as being better at English language.
Years ago, Koreans were advised not to make themselves look like ass holes when traveling abroad.
This applies now to Chinese tourists.
Someday, thanks to 2MB, Koreans will stop stealing pet dogs for food.
I doubt though, they will stop eating it all together.
Dirty old men are dirty old men.
When talking about eating dog meat with my students- I don’t judge, I’ve tried it myself- most of them get defensive with critics(PETA, Brigette Bardot).
We talk about cultural differences and the misconceptions that go on with it.
However, they are always adamant that Korean people DO NOT eat pet dogs. They get very, very serious about this.
Maybe they mean they don’t eat their pet. Eating someone else’s pet on the other hand……
Man, a lot of Koreans get so worked up and angry when someone like Jay Leno makes jokes about Koreans & dogs.
However, stories like this and the number of stories I’ve heard from students about men in their families eating their pets or someone elses pets just shoots down any argument that dog eating in Korea is very well organized and done carefully.
I guess it’s kind of the same as being an American. A lot of people around the world hate us and criticize us. I try to think that we do have our problems, but we aslo have some really redeeming qualities as well. However, whenever an American, especially in Korea, does something incredibly stupid, arrogant or thoughtless in the public eye, I get mad at that person and think “why did they have to be such an idiot and make us look bad?”.
Every place has it’s fair share of idiots. Maybe you can say some more than others.
I do hate chihuahua’s though!
That and arrogant, selfish a$$es like this ajosshi.
It’s like a child- “but I was hungry!”
“Man, a lot of Koreans get so worked up and angry when someone like Jay Leno makes jokes about Koreans & dogs.”
Of course Koreans get upset. To you this is just merely a joke. HA HA HA, very funny. To Koreans this essentially takes the country back to the M.A.S.H days when it was underdeveloped and dirt poor. So it’s more then a joke, it’s a quick way of putting down a country that has spent the first half of the 20th century being put down culturally, economically and politically.
I get offended also. There are a lot of Koreans in LA. So when Jay Leno says Koreans eat dogs in his Burbank studios, what does that mean about all the Koreans who work in the dry cleaners, convenience stores and gas stations in U.S. neighborhoods? Americans don’t always make the distinction between what Koreans do on the peninsula and what they do in the states. Shit, I even have one friend who lives in NJ who still meets people who seriously ask if she’s originally from North Korea.
oh, man, that guy was hungry. What more he have to excuse? Don’t you know Korea is very poor country? Hahahaha… I couldn’t take my laugh.
I don’t think it takes Koreans back to the days when they were poor, as I do not see any correlation between consumption of dogmeat and poverty. Koreans are offended by the joke for other reasons.
Wangkon936:
Not having the capacity to laugh at ourselves is pretty good evidence that we still have a long way to go in shedding the backwardly image you mention.
Also note that the kind of things Jay Leno and other American comedians “joke” about with regard to foreigners, Korean journalists write up in all seriousness. Talk about being strict on others and lenient on ourselves (as the Korean saying goes).
If I had a dog and someone were attempting to par-broil him or her I’d kill him, as simple as that. I consider pets part of the family. Now I know as a foreigner they’d lock me up and throw away the key. But say I were Korean, or, for that matter, say in this instance this woman who owned the chihuahua were a little more burley when she caught this guy with the dog on the broiler. Say there was a knife handy. How would this have gone down? Could she use the, “I’m old and have had a hard life” defense, or do you have to be guy for that? Okay, what if she were a guy?
I’m sorry, I have to disagree. This story is hilarious…even if you are Korean. The guy stole his landlords dog to eat it? LOL! I know this would make a field day target for Jay Leno or anyone else, but I will admit that I had trouble keeping my laughter in when reading this because it’s not only about a guy who ate a dog, he stole the landlord’s dog and ate it.
BTW, the parents of four of my Korean-American friends were North Korean born. I am not sure why that is a ridiculous question to ask. Furthermore, one of my good friends from university was originally a Zainichi North Korean who was studying abroad.
I guess there’s no edit function. I meant “backward”, not backwardly.
Maddlew,
If drunk Korean male dog owner beats up the thief, police will slap the thief in the head and tell him to go home. If any other kind of dog owner beats up the thief, expect the headline: “사람이 개만도 못한 세상.”
15 / wjk: There are dog farms. Actually a student of mine claimed her father owned a free-range farm in Jeolla… Jindo-dogs that were basically treated like cattle, they could run around and play and be fed all in a certain area and every so often when one was “ready,” it was butchered and sold for meat. She mentioned nothing of the humaneness… but she did claim she couldn’t eat any other dog because free-range was so much more delicious…
…on a sidenote, this guy’s an idiot and I hope the landlady tosses his only worldly posessions off her balcony…
What a relief, he failed to eat Chihuahua. The dog meat would have excited his sexual drive to rape his 69-year-old landlady.
Haha! This story is hilarious. You’d think if you were going to roast some dog, you wouldn’t target your landlady’s dog. I’m guessing Park’s rent has just sky-rocketed.
On a more serious note, I have much more sympathy for Park than I do for Westland/Hallmark Meat Co. whose cruelty toward animals recently led to the largest beef recall in US history (143 million pounds of beef). Hopefully the American beef industry will learn a lesson here. Treat animals with respect. Or if you can’t, at least freakin ban video cameras from your facility!
Yeah, never joke about dog meat. You can joke about 9/11, and did Koreans ever do that! In a constantly recurring TV commercial too. But mention, without proper multi-culti respect, the indisputable fact that Koreans eat dog meat, and hoo boy…
Alejandro, Koreans are very sensitive about their dog meat for some reason. I tried to get a picture of a dog meat vendor in a market last week, and the adjumma refused to let me take the picture, and was rolling up her sleeves to make a boshintang out of me. You can’t joke about dog meat, you can’t even take pictures of it or talk about it. I don’t know if it’s a lack of a sense of humor, or if it’s a victim complex. Whatever it is, if only Koreans knew how much I dig the doggie dinner. I would have gladly partaken in Park’s chihuahua-soju snack party, and I would have even made sure Park put the lighter fuel on the coals and not on his @$#%@#$ clothes.
Benicio74 and Timmy,
If you cannot see the connection between dog eating jokes, M*A*S*H, and a half-century of poverty in Korea, then clearly you both are racist pricks.
Haha Sonagi proves my point exactly. Victim complex and no sense of humor!
24: You’re obviously confusing that with the place where my dog went when he was 12. It was so special that my parents didn’t even let me come along for the ride.
#20
One of the English on-line dailies here published an article last summer explaining the relation between dog and snake meat and the unscientifically proven (superstitious) health benefits.
The premise is that in times as Korea has been a typically poor country, dogs (easy prey) , snakes and other less desirable land and aquatic creatures were sources of needed protein. This often boosted the consumers’ strength and energy, thus creating the myth of ‘health benefits’.
Hence the correlation between poverty and dog meat consumption.
Now, loach soup (추 어 탕) falls in the same category I reckon, and creeps me out a bit. Where do those snake looking catfish hang out? And why is it supposed to be a ” healthy food” ?
Maddlew
He would well deserve a good ass kicking but to stab him for killing your dog! I’d hope the Korean authorities would lock you up whether you were a foreigner or not and I’d bet that your own government would lock you up as well.
Dog-eating Koreans are now charging rich pet-loving Americans $150,000 to bring their dead pooches back to life.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/scie.....tworkfront
How do you like them apples now?
@#32
Next time I see Koreans being antagonized with slurs about them being dog eaters, I’ll remember to laugh and carefully note that such Koreans must have victim complexes if they don’t laugh when they’re being victimized.
I’ve seen Asians bashing Koreans for being dog eaters. Of course, these Asians are usually from countries where the people eat dogs too. Not that they know any of this — because Jay Leno didn’t mention it. Now, that’s funny!
Next time I see Koreans being antagonized with slurs about them being dog eaters, I’ll remember to laugh and carefully note that such Koreans must have victim complexes if they don’t laugh when they’re being victimized.
The next time an expat starts whining about the xenophobic Korean press, or some random ajossi looking at him wrong in the street, or what have you, tell them to lighten up and stop having a victim complex.
Next time I see Koreans being antagonized with slurs about them being dog eaters, I’ll remember to laugh and carefully note that such Koreans must have victim complexes if they don’t laugh when they’re being victimized.
But who said Koreans were being antagonized? Again, you are demonstrating a victim complex.
Wake up Netizen Kim. There’s a slight difference between xenophobia/racism and mentioning the fact that Koreans eat dog meat. Hello!
Wake up Netizen Kim. There’s a slight difference between xenophobia/racism and mentioning the fact that Koreans eat dog meat. Hello!
This is what makes Korea looked down upon in the modern world. Just when people are starting to learn about “Korea Sparkling”, a story about a Korean man eating the most beloved domesticated animal in Western history breaks out. And learning that this is common in Korea, myself am also shocked beyond belief. I always thought the Korean Dog Eaters was just a racist rumor. This story better not get played in the States or Europe because people will believe that Koreans are barbarians and do not deserve the time of day.
“This story better not get played in the States or Europe because people will believe that Koreans are barbarians and do not deserve the time of day.”
Better hope that all the school and workplace shootings that occur in America aren’t reported outside the United States, lest people around the world get a similarly negative impression about its people.
Better hope that all the school and workplace shootings that occur in America aren’t reported outside the United States
They need to start ripping out all those metal detectors from the inner-city high schools and start putting them in the universities.
#43: Doubt it will, there were news stories about some American taking part in beastiality and as far as I know, Americans aren’t considered ‘barbarians’ across the globe for that.
“Better hope that all the school and workplace shootings that occur in America aren’t reported outside the United States, lest people around the world get a similarly negative impression about its people.”
You’re right, Virginia Tech did not help. But back to the subject, Most civilizations stopped eating dogs 30,000 years ago once mankind realized that canines were the most loyal to humans. It goes without saying to not enjoy torturing and eating a loyal subject. And no that was not a North Korea caniballism joke.
And I should clarify, it is estimated that only 1 in 10 Koreans in the peninsula still eat dogs. I can understand cultural values and all, but I have a hard time believing that eating dogs has always been a tradition in Korea. It seems more likely a recent custom brought from Manchuria or China within the past 100 years or so. Even if “man’s best friend” is “man’s best dish” over there, that still is no excuse for someone to eat another person’s pet.
“The consumption of dog meat can be traced back many years. Dog bones were excavated in a neolithic settlement in Changnyeong, South Gyeongsang Province. One of the wall paintings in the Goguryeo tombs complex in South Hwangghae Province, a UNESCO World Heritage site which dates from 4th century AD, depicts a slaughtered dog in a storehouse.”
I can see where you’re coming from acropolis7. I was just pointing out that: 1) You can pop over to the Fox News website and, on a daily basis, find at least half a dozen US News stories that smoke (no pun intended) this one in terms of shock value, and that 2) These stories are probably not the most accurate depictions of Americans in general.
I think that the majority of Koreans, Americans, or people of any nationality – at least those not in the midst of a famine – would tend to oppose the eating of another person’s pet, just as I’m fairly certain that the majority would also disapprove of murdering one’s coworkers or classmates.
Was anyone making excuses for him? Do pro-gun Americans make excuses for guys who go onto college campuses and open fire on students?
Great, now we America — land of the school shooting — and Europe — soon-to-be land of honor killings and sharia law — calling other people barbarians because they eat animals they think are pets. Hindus think cows are sacred — hasn’t stop Americans from eating them by the millions.
Dog: the Other Red Meat
Cows are not loyal nor trustworthy. And unlike cows, dogs are responsible for at least 1/3 of the planets population. Before humans had weapons, they had dogs as companions to find food, even in the toughest times, dogs remain loyal to humans. No other beast has helped human beings as much as dogs. The fact that you would even compare a dog to a cow is amazing. And as far as school killings, lets not bring that up because if you consider those events barbaric, then you must look at the persons who commited the worst. The Romans killed for sport, but they would not be termed barbaric by scholars now would they?
I was looking up the history of 개고기 and stumbled upon this;
http://www.gospelfarm.co.kr/imgData/hang_big.jpg
개소주! 하하하! I’ve got to try it, if only it weren’t a quarter mil a bottle.
Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what, dogs are such good friends to man, that when you’re hungry, you can eat ‘em! And they’re yummy, too! And I’m sure if you trained a cow, he’d be just as wonderful a companion as a dog.
Also, tell 1.6 billion Muslims that a dog is man’s best friend — they consider the animal unclean.
You’re right. The comparison is totally bogus. After all, I’ve never heard of anyone dying of “Mad Dog Disease.” I’ve never heard of a dog becoming a sacred object for a faith of 1 billion people.
I gather that pigs also make pretty good pets; however, they make even better pork roasts, hams, sausages, 삼곂살, and footballs!
I doubt any Cow can be trained to rescue people trapped in unforgiving conditions like Saint Bernard’s can, or be medical companions that help operate things a physically handicapped person cannot,or herd your livestock for you…..
I take that back. Rocko’s best friend from “Rocko’s modern life” probably can.
you win.
Don’t get me wrong. Eating other people’s pet is really f*cked because people tend to, you know, get emotionally attached to them. I love bacon and samgyupsal, but that doesn’t mean I’ll go slaughter my neighbor’s pot-bellied pig (… they don’t have pot-bellied pig).
But ‘man’s best friend’ and ‘loyalty’ is bs concept because it’s not universal. At best, it is a localized societal opinion, and often criticisms against eating dog is associated with overt ethnocentrism. This is amplified when words like ‘barbarian’ gets thrown around. Jay Leno is as guilty as any racially/culturally insensitive Korean media – though Leno does not have the journalistic responsibility Korean media seems to lack, he does have responsibility that comes along with his significant social influence.
Regulation of dog meat industry is critical in order to minimize, if not eradicate, the abuse of dogs prior to slaughter as well as potential sanitation problems.
Just my two cents ^^.
Hey, I doubt dogs can carry packs on their back, plow your field, provide rich and plentiful fertilizer, provide heating fuel (as they do in Mongolia) and create building material (as they do in East Africa). Hasn’t kept them off the dinner plate, now has it?
“I doubt any Cow can be trained to rescue people trapped in unforgiving conditions like Saint Bernard’s can, or be medical companions that help operate things a physically handicapped person cannot,or herd your livestock for you…”
Ironically, two of the three country references you make (Switzerland) is also known for their fine dog meat dish.
#57: Leno has one responsibility: make people laugh. If someone’s wittle feewings get hurt in the process, then that someone needs to grow a sense of humor.
Speaking of Leno, has anyone alerted him to this story yet?
Regulation of dog meat industry is critical in order to minimize, if not eradicate, the abuse of dogs prior to slaughter as well as potential sanitation problems.
Government regulation of the dog meat industry is indeed necessary to stop the abuse of the dogs. South Korea legislation has tried to do that. In order for that to happen, dogs have to be officially classified as livestock.
However, the same animals right people (both Korean and from abroad) have successfully thwarted any attempts to apply the Livestock Processing Act to dogs.
I’m glad you guys finally found your niche.
Comparing dogs with cows is like comparing 9/11 to the south gate collapse. And absolutely no one in their right mind would ever do,… nm.
In all fairness I will just nod my head and agree that dogs are no different from eating than pigs, dolphins, whales, or the Dutch. I do not want Marmot to be mad at a me.
No… no cultural imperialist like yourself would.
WTF are you on about? Try getting a f8cking chihuahua to plow your fields day in and day out until it drops dead! Now that’s loyalty!~
“Dog-eating Koreans are now charging rich pet-loving Americans $150,000 to bring their dead pooches back to life.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/scie…..tworkfront
How do you like them apples now?”
Even in a recession, Americans will find time to spend ridiculous amounts of money to justify the making of the movie “The 6th Day”.
Reams of USDA regulations didn’t stop a California slaugtherhouse from waterboarding and ramming forklifts into downer dairy cows to get ‘em to stand long enough to be butchered.
slaugtherhouse = slaughterhouse
“No… no cultural imperialist like yourself would”
Im still kinda new here so I don’t know if your joking around with me or being serious. But you have to admit that you never here the term “imperialist” in America. First time I read about Americans being “imperialists” was while reading the KCNA webpage.I almost spat my Sprite out my nose. I did not know whether to be flattered or to feel bad. If someone ran up to an American in a foriegn country and yelled ” you American bellicose Imperialist!” the American would more than likely be wondering if the person had just gotten done watching Star Wars or something.
rabies.
not exclusive.
dogs and cats are known to nibble at their dead owners in locked houses.
haven’t been to Bovine University yet,
but it’s my understanding that Koreans “pae” the dog to unleash the hormones they credit to enhance men’s erections.
THAT, I have a problem with.
THUS, dog meat can’t be shelfed like any other animal meat.
fresh in a cage.
THAT, I have a serious problem with.
they don’t get a clean neck slice.
they get beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, beaten, to death.
all for the libido.
that did get me pretty hot
My god, I am so wiped out… Apparently I’m the only person here thats owned a chihuahua. That little dog was sooo loyal. It was just me and my 3 lb dog. I loved that dog. Everybody else couldn’t go near her because she went nuts and started barking her head off. But she was totally different with me. Thats the way those little dogs are. A three pound dog that would come running to the door when I got home from work, wagging her little half ounce tail. Just one cool little happy animal. When she died at 13 years of age It killed me. It was my first dog and I don’t think I will ever buy another. Thats what a good dog she was… I tried to see the humor in a what happened to the ladies little dog. I mean I really tried. But as far as I’m concerned you can hang that bastard… And, thats as creative as I can get. Oh my god!!!
Some people say that loyalty – true loyalty – can’t be bought at any price. I don’t know about that, but this article does show that it can be caught and grilled.
Sonagi:
I like to laugh at jokes that make fun of Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Jews, Chinese, Arabs, and most of all, Koreans. I’m proud of Korea, and I’m not insecure enough to be offended by a joke made by a comedian who is obviously an equal opportunity offender. Moreover, I dare point out your view of Korea is extremely troubling, since (South) Korea never had “half a century of poverty.” I advise you to reflect how your obviously good intentions led you to such an absurd understanding of our history, and to be less insecure and paternalistic about our country and our people. We can laugh at ourselves. Try it, it will be very therapeutic.
timmy, I think Koreans have plenty to be proud about, and I’m glad to hear that you have the capacity – heck, even enjoy the opportunity – to find humor in your country.
Thirty years of poverty might have been more accurate number than the fifty years Sonagi mentioned, at least if one wants to start the clock in 1945 or 1948. I think that my wife’s family got their first fridge in 1978. About the same time as they got a TV. And they’ve never looked back!
#74 Are you one of these people who put human life below animals? Would you spend over $900 dollars for an operation to save your animals life?
#70 Mary Provost did not look her best
The day the cops bust into her lonely nest
In the cheap hotel up
on Hollywood West July 29
She’d been lyin’ there
for two or three weeks
The neighbors said
they never heard a squeak
For hungry eyes that could not speak
Said even little doggie’s have got to eat
She was winner
The became the doggie’s dinner
She never meant that much to me
(But now I see) Oh poor Mary
Mary Provost was a movie queen
Mysterious angel of the silent screen
And run like the wind
the nation’s young men steam
When Mary crossed the silent screen
Oh she came out west from New York
But when the talkies came
Mary just couldn’t cope
Her public said Mary take a walk
All the way back to New York
Those Quaalude balms didn’t help her sleep
As her nights grew long
and her days grew bleak
It’s all downhill
once you’ve passed your peak
Mary got ready for that last big sleep
The cops came in
and they looked around
Throwing up everywhere over
what they found
The handiwork of Mary’s little dachshund
That hungry little dachshund
Poor Mary, poor Mary, poor, poor Mary
Poor Mary
She was a winner
that became the doggie’s dinner
She never meant that much to me
(But now I see) Oh poor Mary
As a Korean i can’t believe this. Its the god damn old people. Early boomers and their parents. I personally blame China because dog eating been in China for centuries.
As a Korean i can’t believe this. Its the god damn old people. Early boomers and their parents. I personally blame China because dog eating been in China for centuries.
Oh shut the fuck up, you retarded fool.
#82 There is a lot of love in those words. Good show old boy!
@#76:
Are ya new here, Timmy? Regulars would figure out that I was mocking comment #18.
Righto, tonto; it was more like 5000 years of poverty for all except the hereditary aristocracy.
Isn’t more accurate to say that Korea, like most of the world, has had several decades of prosperity after thousands of years of poverty?
No, it’s not. The rulers of various countries collected baubles, trinkets, and monuments based on the wealth of their nations — compare the treasures of Britain, France, Cambodia, various Indian subcontinent states, Egypt, the Incas, Mayans and Toltecs, or nearly any other great civilization (China!). Then go see the meagre collections of junk down in Kyeongju, Kongju or Puyo. See the tinfoil hammered out to be the crowns of proto-Korean kings. Even the rulers of these people were dirt poor.
To me that makes the Korean economic miracle all the more amazing and miraculous, and worthy of respect and praise. But for some reason, Koreans want to lie to me and to themselves about the glorious and rich past of the country that they somehow fumbled away. And for that I Blame Japan™.
I wasn’t referring to ruling classes of the world and am not aware of poverty measures that do that.
He knows, slim. He just felt like unleashing a little storm of FU.
You were talking of wealth of nations. Wealth of nations can be measured by the treasures they accumulate, no? For example, Britain was rich, even while many (most?) of the British were poor. Consequently, London is swimming in treasure. By contrast, Korea has virtually none. It may be more satisfying for Koreans to say “It was all stolen!”, but that is a lie. The more likely truth is, for 99.5% of its history, this has been one of the most wretched and poor countries on the face of the Earth.
What a spectacular reversal! Rags to riches. Slaves to free men. Enough of pretend past glories — this current prosperity is Korea’s achievement, and it is truly glorious.
Nice closing counselor. But why didn’t you bold the truly glorious?
I fear too much boldface makes me seem too much like whackadoodle John C. Dvorak.
‘The more likely truth is, for 99.5% of its history, this has been one of the most wretched and poor countries on the face of the Earth.’
a lie but anyway, you’re still married to one, ain’t ya?
‘See the tinfoil hammered out to be the crowns of proto-Korean kings. Even the rulers of these people were dirt poor.’ brenden
this one shows your ignorance even more. you mean, you can gage the wealth and poverty of nations based on the use of gold foil? are you kidding me? the crown’s crap, i agree, but i understand it’s concept while you apparently don’t. got nothing to do with wealth or poverty.
still further, interesting that shilla had one of the largest urban centers in the world, no? how could it be the koreans were so poor?
perhaps, anger.
Consequently, London is swimming in treasure. By contrast, Korea has virtually none.
Perhaps if Chosun had gone on a 500 year span global exploitation rampage (aka imperialism, slave trading, genocide, etc), Seoul also would be swimming in such treasure.
What do you think?
I have read that Korea may have once influenced the regions near Shanghai and established trading routes with India and as far as the East African coast. I know most people would shoot down this idea, but you have to admit that a majority of Korean history has been eroded by constant wars and looting. It would not surprise me if half of Japan’s prosperity and history actually has Korean roots. And this is coming from a non-Korean.
# 49,
Dog eating on the Korean peninsula has had ancient roots and probably came from settlers from or passing through Manchuria. The Tungustic tribes of Manchuria also ate dogs until Nurhachi (founder of the Manchu Qing Dynasty) banned it when a dog saved him from drowning. That’s why dog eating isn’t as wide spread in China and Manchuria.
# 51,
Reminds me of a scene in in The Patriot after Martin’s men capture Cornwallis’ personal baggage…
John Billings: I say we drink the wine, eat the dogs, and use the paper for musket wading.
Reverend Oliver: Eat the dogs!
Benjamin Martin: Aye, a dog is a fine meal.
Reverend Oliver: G-G-Good Heavens!
# 74…
I think all of our male jingoism in these threads is about to scare vicki away…
Sonagi, do something.
Alot of history was systemically wiped out by the Japanese occupation.
China has and still eats a large amount of dog meat. China is the biggest and only exporter of dog meat in the world.
Korea being dirt poor is just a patent lie. Dont comment on Korean history which you know little about mr. reject lawyer.
I actually agree with Mr. Carr on this one.
Samguk sagi and Samguk yusa is full of lies.
First off, it was written 300 years into Koryo’s Kingdom. And it professes to accurately note 5000 years of Korean history.
2nd off, there is surely a severe lack of monumental monuments which are found in other great civilizations.
Rich kings build stuff and collect stuff.
China used to collect them at Luo Yang.
Japan hoarded some, too.
the only proof of having been rich is present…is well, non existant. Unless you want to count some stone made Giant Buddhas.
Giant Buddhas are found in Central Asia as well, though, where they seemed to have been well off sometime ago.
Korean ones aren’t as big as theirs, though. Draw your own conclusions.
Where are Goryo’s monuments, which lasted 400 years, longer than some Chinese kingdoms? Well, there’s a blue jar.
What about Chosun, 500 years? A white jar.
They outlasted some Chinese kingdoms, too.
You gotta take into account that they were portioning a big % of their GDP to China since 668AD. I’d guess 30%.
Hail Great General, Kim Yoo Shin !
He’s a piece of shit.
Granted Maya and Inca don’t exist, they built huge shit to feel good about themselves.
And it is indeed interesting that Shilla and Baekjae kings wore thin gold crowns.
While, it is clearly, clearly, so clearly evident to me now, that
Goryo and Joseon kings were not allowed to wear gold crowns.
Must have been a Chinese edict.
What a powerful peninsular nation.
Netizen Kim:
I agree 100%. But financing that kind of thing takes some initial wealth, which Korea never really had enough of to muster an effort. (It also takes advanced technologies.) The Europeans never got going with it until they had a decisive edge over neighbors, from the 15th century or so.
Koreans are generally pretty good at mistreating foreign laborers here in Korea and overseas. This country also has a history of mass enslavement of its own people. So don’t tell me that slavery was something that Koreans reject by their kind and egalitarian nature. That’s not true either. Koreans are people, and if during their history they had ever been wealthier or more powerful than their neighbors Korean “imperialism” would have presented itself.
pawikirogi:
Sure enough you can gauge the relative wealth and poverty of nations — and corporations — based on the accumulated collection of stuff its rulers have. Why do you think the rulers collect that stuff? It’s to show off how rich they are — they mobilize the wealth of their people for the purpose of aggrandizement.
What do you think the “Leeum” is all about, anyway?
Visitors to the Kim family’s junk closets in North Korea are generally struck by how the nature of the “treasures” on display confirm how poor North Korea is.
Don’t tell me Koreans eschew conspicuous displays of wealth. That’s nonsense. But I’m game: What’s pawikirogi’s explanation for the fact that the rulers of Korea’s various states couldn’t muster very much in the way of baubles? If the crown is crap, what explains that fact?
ditto81:
It would not surprise me either. In fact, I am glad to support such a thesis 100% — maybe more. Why does it matter that you (or I) are non-Korean? Are we supposed to automatically “support” the “Korean side” of some factual dispute if we’re ethnically Korean?
Japan got most of its early technology transfer, and a lot of its people, via the Korean peninsula. And then Japan had better environmental conditions to work with, and thus was able to achieve more. There’s no value judgment here. Poor is poor, just like wet is wet.
I wish someone (your parents) hadn’t filled your heads with nonsense like poor = genetically inferior. Poor just means poor.
“Perhaps if Chosun had gone on a 500 year span global exploitation rampage (aka imperialism, slave trading, genocide, etc), Seoul also would be swimming in such treasure. ”
Exploit whom? And if Korea could have, you dont think they wouldnt have??? Bc Koreans are such nice people???
We were either too busy sucking China’s cock, getting fucked in the ass by the Japanese, or just fighting amongst ourselves like we always do.
I certainly did not intend to open up a whole new front of K-bashing, J-bashing, expat-bashing (and whatever it is that Netizen Kim does with words) when I pointed out that poverty was the normal condition of mankind, including in Korea, for most of history. I got the impression that folks were suggesting that the sparkling Korea we all know and love (or love to hate) today was the norm that Korea got back to after a few lean decades under Japanese rule or Syngman Rhee kleptocracy or something. The downtrodden serfdom of today’s DPRK subjects was more likely the norm, no?
The proximate issue was dog eating and its relation to low living standards and the sensitivity about that image. I don’t associate eating dogs with poverty, because in the two places I’ve seen it (and tried it) — South Korea and Taiwan — as long as I’ve been visiting the region (1980 onward) dog has been a delicacy MORE expensive than other foods.
# 60,
You are wrong. Leno’s primary responsibility isn’t to make people laugh. It’s to make money for himself and NBC BY making people laugh. Otherwise, he’d be out of a job.
Television stations don’t like to upset people because if yelling at them doesn’t work then they just yell at the sponsors. This is why so many mainstream television shows are so PC these days.
# 101,
“We were either too busy sucking China’s cock, getting fucked in the ass by the Japanese, or just fighting amongst ourselves like we always do.”
True… and we end up kowtowing to China or getting bitch-slapped by the Japanese because we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves…
“When a dog bites a man, that is not news, because it happens so often. But if a man bites a dog, that is news.”
- John B. Bogart, city editor of The Sun between 1873 and 1890, offering what is perhaps the most frequently quoted definition of the journalistic endeavor (Wikipedia)
“It’s news! Man bites rabid dog in southern India” Reuters UK
http://uk.reuters.com/article/.....EnoughNews
Sonagi:
Yes, I am new here. Thanks for clearing that up. (Should’ve known; “Racist prick” did seem a bit over the top.)
Brendon:
I’m painfully aware of the over-glorifications and distortions that exist in Korean history education. It is a problem that definitely needs to be constantly addressed. But seriously, “one of the most wretched and poor countries on the face of the Earth”? Unless I’m mistaking sarcasm for sincerity like I did with Sonagi’s comment, seems like you’re simply replacing one form of distortion with another, even more egregious, one. I’m no history buff, but if there’s one certainty in world history, it’s that the pendulum of properity never stops swinging. The height of the British empire or the Mayan civilzation is hardly a fair standard to use in deciding a country is “wretched and poor.” I would obviously never assert that Korea had a glorious history that surpasses the wealth of the British empire or any of the other great civilzations, but if you add the temporal element, there were many periods when Korea was better off than contemporaneous Europe, Africa, etc., just like there were many periods when the reverse was true.
In the end, I think you’re probably annoyed with the closed-mindedness and prejudice you perceive in Koreans to the point you want to just say “the f*** with all this, this is how pathetic your country is.” You’re frustration is evidenced in the kind of counterarguments you preempt; e.g., “don’t tell me that slavery was something that Koreans reject by their kind and egalitarian nature,” “Don’t tell me Koreans eschew conspicuous displays of wealth.” Sure, online comment boards are overrun by these type of comments, but out of ALL the Koreans I know, I’d say less than 1 out of 5 are thickheaded enough to make those kind of assertiongs. Furthermore, if you’re annoyed by Koreans in this respect, you’d be annoyed by 80% of the whole world. Glorification of history and artificial sense of superiority is par for the course in most countries, especially those that are ethnically homogenous (yes, even EUROPEAN countries. All I’m saying is that although your frustration is justified, it doesn’t justify you crossing the fine line between criticism and insult.
#98 It did scare me away. But even though I realize I’m minnow in a sharks tank, I will keep going, figure this out and learn something…
Way to hang in there, timmy and vicki!
#78…”Are you one of these people that puts human life below animals?”…. No, are you? I’m not an animal, are you? And, I would spend what ever I could to make sure an animal in my care was taken care of if it needed help. They are, after all flesh and blood. On the other hand I not radical about it, but I would hang somebody if they ate my dog…
I’m an animal, and I’m pretty sure you are too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal#Etymology
I’m also a smartass.
I’d kill someone if they killed my dog too, if it wasn’t for that pesky law getting in the way. Then again I would do that if someone broke into my house and stole something from me, if not for that law getting in the way again.
Somehow, this thread reminded me of this episode of the twilight zone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....ight_Zone)
I remember watching it years ago, and thinking to myself how ridiculous the dilemma was. Any normal person would push the button in a heartbeat. Or am I too cynical?
I see; so if someone killed your dog you feel it is your right to kill them? What a warped set of values. How many cats do you have in your home?
I believe that what you might have in mind is the career of Chang Bo-go, the merchant adventurer (and would-be prince)of late Silla. He had quite a maritime mini-empire going based out of Gaesong. He was so successful that he offered Silla to clear the pirates out of the southwest of the peninsula and the West Sea at his own expense and succeeded, for which he was given some relatively minor administrative power over that part of the country. He established an entrepot near Mokpo and also a small town on the southern coast of the Shandong peninsula. The latter still exists, and there is a huge buddhist temple there with a shrine to Bo-go that’s worth a visit. There’s no evidence he got as far as Shanghai, let alone India – although he undoubtedly got a hold of Indian trade goods from his Chinese trading counterparts. He had the temerity, however, to think that he could crack the Shilla bone-rank system, and when he tried to forge marriage alliances with the Silla royal family, other elements of the Silla aristocracy had him killed (and helped themselves to his wealth and property). A considered decision also was made to actively “discourage” any other such commercial entrepeneurial undertakings, so he represents the beginning, the pinnacle and the end of “Korean” involvement in any sort of systematized international commercial trade until the (gasp!) Japanese kick-started it after 1876(!).
# 107,
“All I’m saying is that although your frustration is justified, it doesn’t justify you crossing the fine line between criticism and insult.”
Well said Timmy. I’d say that most people here readily cross that line on a daily basis. What sucks is that a lot of Koreans active on this blog return the gesture in kind as a response, which is childish.
Getting back to topic (if anyone cares to) I was going to write a response to # ’s 20, 31 and 32 until I came across an article that expressed my viewpoints on the matter more clearly then I had time to. Some of you guys may have read it already as it’s been in cyber space for awhile.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/art.....ics_of_dog
Some excerpts that I thought were interesting (for the lazy who don’t want to read the article):
“The controversy has attracted a fair share of journalists, who have indulged their Orientalist biases by depicting Koreans in almost cannibalistic terms.”
“But why are most fingers pointing at Korea? Dog is eaten in China, Taiwan, Burma, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam, Ghana, and the Congo, and by various indigenous peoples and desperately hungry Arctic explorers.”
“One reason is the relative obscurity of Korean food in the United States.”
“The pervasive American scorn for this pungency has prompted many Koreans to adopt an apologetic tone.”
“Other ethnic groups have experienced the same problem. At the turn of the twentieth century, when Italians were not yet considered “white,” their food was shunned for its liberal use of garlic and strong cheeses.”
“Because the French define and continue to refine haute cuisine, their unusual eating habits do not receive equivalent scrutiny.”
“If the French ate dog meat as readily as they eat horse meat, Korea would not be the target of so much hostility.”
“The Korean response to the controversy is instructive. Many Koreans, even those who wouldn’t touch the stuff, defend dog soup against the onslaught of Westernization: It may not be good soup, but it is our soup.”
“Korean Americans have objected to media depictions of Koreans as somehow animalistic. They believe that there is plenty enough in Korean cuisine… to define identity without resorting to a defense of this minority preference, which is decidedly not part of Korean-American culture.”
“Both Koreans and Korean Americans, whatever their personal feelings about poshintang, came together recently to achieve a common goal: elicit an apology from Jay Leno.”
“Prominent Korean Americans participated in a conference call in which Leno said that he wouldn’t have told the joke if he could have predicted the reaction of the Korean American community.”
“But the eating of dog has always been a serious matter, even before Leno and Bardot entered the picture. According to scholar Frederick Simoons, author of the classic Eat Not This Flesh, the people of the Egyptian city Cynopolis long ago fought a civil war against their neighbors from Oxyrhynchus. Cynopolians, as you might guess from their name, worshipped dogs.”
“In the best of all possible worlds, we should be able to have our dogs and occasionally eat them, too.”
Lastly,
“Outsiders who think Koreans thin-skinned don’t understand han and Korean history. Han is a difficult-to-translate Korean word that means, roughly, a deeply felt sense of injustice. Koreans feel han about their divided peninsula or the experience of Japanese colonialism. Racist broadsides against poshintang bring up feelings of han in much the same way that the epithet “garlic-stinking” might enrage a certain generation of Italian-Americans.”
Yeah, I’m probably gonna get a few posts that AGAIN ridicule the concept of Han… but if the same people spent their time trying to understand it then making fun of it, maybe they wouldn’t appear so ignorant.
do you know the phrase
“gae pae deuh si, paen da.”
?
That’s how dog is eaten in Korea. Maybe elsewhere in the world as well. That’s why it’s not in the supermarket shelf. It’s animal abuse.
“gae chuh rom, pae buh ryuh.”
I’m no Korean expert, but I thin “pae” is used to mean, beat, and as in beat up like how a dog is beaten. That’s about the only usage.
And, this I realized today. Thanks to a foreigner’s observation about the crowns.
Chosun kings didn’t wear gold crowns, this is BEYOND PATHETIC because surely there is evidence that Shilla and Baekjae kings did.
Too bad we can’t all get this worked up over human life as we can over a dog’s, a cow’s, a dolphin’s, or the loss of inanimate objects.
The milk of human kindness has truly dried up.
Many “nations” have their own version of ‘Han’. What appears to distinguish the Korean variety, apart from the particular events and the particularized narratives of those events constructed in the course of creating Korean ‘tradition’, is (some individual and the entire culture’s) contemporary propensity to wallow in it and to attempt to use it as a justification for demanding special attention and special treatment. Other endearing aspect’s of the contemporary Korean self-absorption with “their” Han include the deliberate and wanton falsification of the historical record both to deepen it (5000 years of 5000 invasions, sigh) and assuage it (Goguryo military prowess as “Korean”, rather than Goguryo, puissance, thump, thump). When it manifests itself, it’s generally not a subject of ridicule but a subject of concern – except in the threads of this blog, where its specific execresences are so meretricious as to warrant not only ridicule but just the sort of calculated insults leveled against it, e.g., Carr’s most recent.
#111….Nooooo, I am not an animal. If you are, go with it.
#109….Geeeeeeee, thanksssssss…
Sperwer,
We still have people who still remember the Japanese occupation, modernization and relative prosperity is relatively recent. The wounds haven’t healed yet.
I’m gonna compare han to something equally tramatic to Americans to perhaps help people understand… and I’m not doing it to be an ass or anything. But hey, I gotta use something American that somehow resembles the Korean experience… and this is the only thing I can think of.
Think of slavery and racism. The South was quite bitter after the Civil War for quite some time, racism, segregation and Jim Crow being the vestiges of that bitterness and that didn’t end until well into the 20th century. Who’s to know if had Lincoln had lived and Reconstruction was avoided if the South wouldn’t have reacted to the ultimate Union victory by keeping black people down?
Likewise, many blacks still feel the the pain of a racist past even though slavery ended 140 years ago and informal Jim Crow laws ended after the 60’s. However, decades (generations) of these policies have been very traumatic to African Americans, right? To this day this past hasn’t been forgotten completely and it’s been used to unscrupulous ends by some black leaders.
These things take time to sort themselves out. But hey, it’s easy for you to judge, right? Koreans should just get over it, right?
How’s it feel to know that you are smarter and more open minded then 71 million of your fellow human beings? Damn fucking good I bet…
#114…. I just don’t understand where all this bad mouthing Korean food is coming from? I watch television, and I read newspapers. I think I remember Jay Leno saying something about dog meat being eaten by the Koreans. And I’m telling you that was wrong and made the Korean people look like fools. But I’m left shaking my head and wondering where I’ve missed all of this upset? The Korean community isn’t represented on television. I haven’t heard this kind of discussion from anyone I know… Don’t get me wrong, I know things like Koreans eating dogs is really hurtful to the Korean community, but I think sometimes slights like this get intellectualized to death and take on a giant life of there own? I’m sure you will set me straight? Bring it down to the street level. How has this affected you? Or has it? I’m white, and this is just off my radar screen…
WangKon:
I feel your pain, I really do!
My current mother-in-law still instinctively counts in Japanese.
My former father-in-law spent 5 years living in the sewers in Warsaw, sneaking out at night to strangle SS soldiers. After he was captured by the Wehrmacht after the failure of the Warsaw Uprising and marked for execution, he escaped, only to be captured by the Russians and similarly targeted (because he was a member of the non-Communist underground). He got away again and walked from the Ukraine to a US refugee camp in Germany where he lived two years before getting a visa for the US.
Two of my uncles were POWs, one of the Japanese in the Pacific where he built railroads for the Jap war machine (under whip of Korean trustys) and took three years to recover his health after being liberated, the other in Germany, where he was subjected to (permamnently disabling) medical experiments.
Interestingly, they none of them whine about it.
The post Civil War South gave birth to the KKK and many similar organizations which left the South with an awful and ugly legacy. So yeah, I think that’s a good example to use to remind people of what comes of nursing your resentments (i.e., han plain and simple, minus the romanticizing treacle), instead of getting on with things. Many Koreans have too without the national self-pity crutch. It would be better for Korea (and the rest of us) if the rest (and the nation as a whole) did so too.
Remember Leno has that Stupid Americans on the Street thing. He doesn’t spend an hour five nights a week on Koreans. Hey, those people on the street are really stupid. In fact, it kinda pisses me off. But I’m not pissed at Leno. I’m pissed at those people for not knowing what continent they live on. It’s not Leno’s fault.
Oh, and earlier, saying I would kill the guy might have been too simplistic. I should have said, after gently removing my dead family member, I would have ACCIDENTLY killed him by bashing him over the head with the grill.
I sometimes wonder whether “The Marmots Hole” should be renamed “The Expat Kyopo Spat Space”
It’s made me hesitant to talk about Korean food to non-Asians because I’m afraid someone will have a Phoebe (of “Friends”) moment and blurt out, “Korean bbq? Ewwww…. a box of puppies, that’s what I think about when I hear Korean bbq.”
Okay, they don’t necessarily have to say it, they can just think it and show me a cringed expression… and I’ve seen this expression before. It doesn’t feel very good.
So I don’t generally talk about Korean food to non-Asians. It struck me as odd once as this one white guy in the Wells Fargo floor asked me if galbi is the only Korean food around since the sandwich shop in the building is owned by Koreans and that’s the only Korean dish they serve and the only one he’s been exposed to. It sounded like he loved galbi and was earnestly asking me what else there was. Believe it or not… I froze. I don’t realize it at the time, but I’ve become so guarded about talking about Korean food that it’s hard for me to speak freely about it to a white face.
# 125,
Hey… I’m not angry….
“Interestingly, they none of them whine about it.”
Yeah, but I think German attempts at reconciliation and Ostpolitik helped.
I’m not sure how that helped a Korean halmoni forced to forget her native tongue, a former US prisoner of the Japs, a former US prisoner of the Germans, or a former Polish underground fighter who’s now a US citizen.
Just the all around warm and fuzzy feeling of Kumbayah?
Oh wait, I get it now.
You mean if only Japan would prostrate and grovel, not only would it help a Korean halmoni forced to forget her native tongue,but also a former US prisoner of the Japs, a former US prisoner of the Germans, or a former Polish underground fighter who’s now a US citizen.
Then, of course, the planets would start revolving around the sun again – or should that be earth? – and it really will be a kumbayah universe again!
Can I have the lemon-lime kool-aid, please?
# 124, All I can say is…
I don’t see how someone who’s decided to have Korean family members can have so little empathy for their collective historical experience.
Even Michael Breen, who didn’t marry a Korea said:
“They are… [an] expressive people. But they also bear a terrible sadness and anger because of their history, which they can neither express nor completely shake off, and which many outsiders fail to understand.”
and…
“After the Second World War, the Koreans came out of a half-century of Japanese domination with such a profound sense of worthlessness that they seemed to have lost any notion of who they were or where they came from.”
There is some confusion at times that trauma means a lot violence and loss of life. You know, that’s not true. The KKK lynched only what? 25 people? But they left an indelible mark on African American history and consciousness because they and their Jim Crow sympathizers pervaded such large parts of Southern society and used a systematic approach to consistently remind blacks of how inferior they were. Blacks were given inferior education, inferior jobs, housing, so on and so forth so they could be controlled despite their large numbers. How Japan treated Korea and Koreans from 1905 to 1945 is soooooo similar to the Jim Crow South it’s eerie. You know that zanichi Koreans in Japanese schools consistently got lower test scores then Japanese students? Some American sociologists use that data to argue that discrimination, and the affect on a young person’s psyche, is the real cause of the Black/White standardized test divide.
Anyways, My grand parents never talked about the occupation either, just like my dad never really talked about the Korean War. Why? Because it was too traumatic. You want to leave a positive legacy for your kids, not give them a bunch of dire stories.
On constantly harping on historical experience being an impediment I agree with and yes, there is a dark side to han and you’ve identified part of it. But you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and shit on the whole concept. If you don’t understand han, then there is a whole dimension of your family’s history and culture that you won’t understand and I think it will be your loss.
“Han’s a black thang — y’all wouldn’t understand.”
I agree with the kyopo. I think what gets most expats worked up about “han” and “jeong” is that many Koreans use those as examples of Korean exceptionalism, when in fact, as Wangkon notes, other cultures are capable of having similar collective feelings.
Why would any American soldier taken hostage in WWII resent Germany for anything the Hitler regime might have committed against him 60 years ago? That’s just plain looney. Not even a Korean would do that. There’s nothing in post WWII culture, of present-day Germany in relation to the U.S. past or present, that would keep memories of such injuries live or relevant. The culture has changed, the government has changed, the sentiments of the people have changed.
Which is to say, resentment is transitive; it needs an object in order to exist and tends toward extinction in the void of its original source. It also helps that Nazi Germany is condemned everywhere as it has been.
uh, brenden, how about you respond to timmy’s post? i’d love to see you stammer. lol.
‘that’s why japan did more.’ brenden
really? japan did more? when did japan do more? if japan did more and only got early technology from korea (not the korean peninsula), why did they have special units designed to loot korean art and technology during the imjin war? that war was in the late 1500s and yet, japan still hadn’t mastered metal type printing and advanced kiln design. they had to learn that, via theft, from the the wretched poverty stricken koreans. why isn’t the other way around if japan ‘did more’? can you tell me that?
more later.
Hey Sperwer, could you spread some of that tough “get over it and stop whining” schpiel to some of your fellow victims-in-training here?
Wang Kon, small hint: trying to explain the nuances of Han in terms of Black History Month language to someone like Sperwer is much rather like a land creature trying to explain to a fish why drowning is a bad thing.
Netizen Kim, small hint: Spewer isn’t my only intended audience.
I have a lot of empathy for their experience, and I respect their particular response (which is not of the hand-wringing victim variety). What I don’t sympathize with is the Korean national cult of resentment and self-pity. Catering to that is like giving a cask of soju to an alkie.
Breen’s a friend of mine and a perceptive observer of Korea, but he’s hardly (and wouldn’t claim to be) an historian. Korea, and to the extent that they foolishly failed to distinguish between themselves and the nation, a great many individual Koreans certainly did emerge from World War 2 with a pervasive sense of worthlessness – the worthlessness of their nation as measured by contemporary standards of achievement. But – and I don’t mean to minimize the brutality of some of Japan’s conduct during the colonial period – the root of that feeling of inadequacy is in Korea’s own failure to adapt to the modern world – a failure that was the result of deliberate decisions by its rulers, that long pre-dated Japan’s misconduct (and arguably necessitated – though it might not have ‘justified’ – Japan’s interference in Korea), and that was continued with even greater obstinacy even when the handwriting was on the wall, e.g., Taewongun’s career and policies). Although Japan’s colonization certainly exacerbated matters at the margin, Korean society would have emerged at the end of WW2 as an impoverished and judged by any standard other than that of its rulers, stagnant, corrupt and profoundly unjust. Cf. the comprehensive account of the pre-colonial economy by Chung Young-lob, in which he lays to rest the fantasy that changes in Chosun economic practices constituted “progress”, let alone the “sprouts of capitalism”, and demonstrates that Chosun didn’t have the human, institutional or technological resources, nor because of the relative primitiveness of the economy and rapacity of the yangban, the accumulated capital necessary to transition to a relatively self-sustaining growth economy connected to the larger world economy.
‘It would not surprise me if half of Japan’s prosperity and history actually has Korean roots.’ ditto
don’t care too much for history so i was surprised to discover that the oldest map made in east asia is actually korean. it’s called the ‘kangnido’. you can still view the kangnido today- in japan. yep, yet another example of japanese thieving it’s poor and wretched neighbor, mr korea.
BTW, to answer your direct question, more directly, I married the woman who is now my wife, not her family, not Korea and not even a Korean. (I know those are impossible distinctions for most Koreans to make, that indeed the fact that such distinctions can be made is so deeply disturbing to most as to be unthinkable.)
‘I have a lot of empathy for their experience, and I respect their particular response (which is not of the hand-wringing victim variety).’ sperwer
well, the first time sperwer ever got my attention. oh, the things that happen when there’s no vitriol. anyway, perhaps he missed the collective korean response to the japanese:
korea #11.
that’s korea’s response to japan. you should be proud to be married to a korean.
that map probably survies today, because Japan stole it.
otherwise, it may have been lost.
I’m serious.
Kim Jong Ho was a man in the late Joseon Kingdom who had a simple dream of making the most accurate Korean map he could. By foot, by drawing with hand. He made one. It’s very accurate. Joseon dynasty officials came to him. Not to congradulate him. He was charged with treason and spying, and the intent to make a map to sell to invading waegooks. He was executed, if my memory serves right.
What did Koreans do to Goguryo and Baekjae? Their kings and their clans were relocated to China.
What did Koreans do with Jang Bogo? Executed him. Gee, what happenned to that trade route? Discontinued.
What did Koreans do to Yi Sun Shin. Shit, they would have executed him themselves, before a stray Japanese bullet hit him. Honest to Holy God.
What did Koreans do to Gwang Hae Gun, possibly the 3rd smartest Chosun Korean king behind SaeJong, and Young Jo? Coup d’etat, put a stupid ass named Injo in there, and get raped by Qing invaders twice. Of note, there is nothing to be found celebrating Gwang Hae Gun in Korea.
What did Koreans do to Hwang Woo Suk? Wait, … anyway it seems the dog cloning trade proves he wasn’t a total cold fusion scientist.
Obviously you spoke too soon, goose. See #140 Apparently I didn’t get your attention, but only said something that triggered another sequence of your onanistic brain farts.
‘(I know those are impossible distinctions for most Koreans to make, that indeed the fact that such distinctions can be made is so deeply disturbing to most as to be unthinkable…’
yeah, right; you’re still married to a korean. the fact that you pretend you aren’t only makes you look foolish.
and angry too.
Is that dude Netizen Kim’s dad?
#140
`#144
Quod est demonstratum.
You’re right, Sperwer. It only got to the lizard brain before his body rejected it. The autonomic nervous system went completely into over-ride. Fascinating!
All over a post about someone croaking a Chihuahua…
#123. Are you for real? Koreans eat dogs. I can buy dog meat at the end of my block. Come to Korea and look around. You are making a fool of yourself.
The most I’ve ever learned about Americans is from Korea blogs.
#127…..I don’t think you could have explained that any better. When a person of a different culture is hesitant to even mention the food he eats to someone that’s not of his race…well, I guess theres been damage done… I can see that clearly. That’s awful.
That comment makes me shudder, Antti.
By god, wjk, you’re actually showing some wit.
#139…..It seems to me that if Japan has an ancient Korean map, that the Korean people are in the perfect position to get it back, NOW. Japaneese people are learning more about Koreans from the dramas that are being played out on Japaneese television… I think this has made the Korean people more well known and even popular with some japaneese. I’m sure that if the Korean news were to point out that Japan has something that in reality is this important to Korean history, then they would not want to look bad in the eyes of the world and they would give it back. Gee, it could improve relations.. This site is full of talented people. Aren’t there teachers and a lawyer on this site? It could be a rallying point for the marmots hole.
#134….It wasn’t too long ago that Germany equalled concentration camps, torture of jews, and nazi… That went on for many, many years. German people as a whole were painted with that brush. The world saw Germany that way. So, if the WORLD hung onto that feeling for years I imagine a soldier that was in a German prison might have left over negative emotions from that experience…
This country also has a history of mass enslavement of its own people. So don’t tell me that slavery was something that Koreans reject by their kind and egalitarian nature. That’s not true either.
I don’t claim Koreans are intrinsically kind and egalitarian. Quite the contrary, a lot of the time. Also, I won’t deny some form of slavery existed in Korea’s past. But this was mostly in the form of starving peasants who sold themselves as slaves to families that were better-off during times of hardship in order to survive.
This is a bit different from 18th century African slave trade, no?
Wow this is a fascinating discussion, especially for a newbie like me. Too bad I can’t log on more often.
globalvillageidiot:
Thanks for the support and kind words, and most of all, for being level-headed; a rare trait indeed.
One quick observation: I never realized the resentment foreigners living in Korea held towards certain aspects of the Korean culture was this strong and bitter. There is certainly no justifying the mistreatment of foreginers and ill-guided nationalistic tendencies in Korea. In the presence of my Korean friends, I’m usually the most outspoken critic of these negative aspects, so I definitely agree with the sentiments many of you express here. But somewhere along the line, the general sense of resentment and frustration seems to have blurred the line between cultural characteristics that are negative and those that are essentially neutral. To me, there is clearly something wrong with the blanket chastisement of every aspect that is “different” from America. Mistreatment of foreigners is wrong. Xenophobia is wrong. But collectivism is simply different from individualism. A culture of “han” is simply different from a culture of aggressive pride. (ironically, Korea has both.) Back-stabbing is a recurring motif in every country’s history (heck, just look at the world right now). America is an anamoly in that its history suffers less from some of the negative characteristics seen throughout world history (the likes of xenophobia and backstabbing) but much of it is just a product of its unique birth as a country established by idealistic immigrants who had the benefit of being equipped with modern perspectives. I’m not taking anything away from America–I think its unique birth is precisely what makes it great–but simply saying that singling out Korea and denouncing every aspect (which most of the world happens to share) different from America is inappropriate.
What I find most interesting is that the very people who denounce Korea’s so called victim complex are displaying the same kind of victim complex as foreigners living in Korea. Both kinds of complexes (if you call it that) are products of a history (long or short) of being victimized. Hence, the same rule applies: being aware and critical of unfair treatment or persecution and trying to fix it is applaudable; letting it become a “complex” and the source of a new form of prejudice and bias is simply wrong. We’re well aware of how easily some Koreans fall into this trap. What I’m oberving in some (a minority, I’m happy to say) of the above comments is foreigners falling into the same trap.
Netizen Kim #156
“This is mostly in the form of starving peasants selling themselves as slaves
to families that were better off during times of hardship in order to survive”
Not only during times of hardship but throughout their entire history slaves called nobi had continued to account for 30 to 40% of the Korean population until the slavery was banned in 1895 by the new government appointed by Japan right after the Sino-Japanese war.
Actually, those who volunteered for slavery generally ended up in the kind embrace of the ruling yangban who pushed them off productive lands that yangban connived to acquire for themselves. Once on marginal land they could no longer make their tax payments to the govt from their poorer crop yields (which typically were not accurately reflected in the tax asessment. Enslaving oneself also meant “freedom” from govt imposed corveee labor and military duty.
Voluntary enslavement was a relatively late development, though. Old-fashioned subjagation was the rule from the time of the Three Kingdoms until well into Goryo. The victims generally were the lower status groups of each tribal grouping and those of all but the highest strata of competing tribes, clans, kingdoms who were defeated in war and taken as prisoners. Again on the initiative of the hereditary aristocratic classes, slavery, which originally was a disability only imposedon the slave himself, also was made hereditary.
The point, in any case, is what does it say about the economic viability – not to mention the justice – of a society whose social arrangements effectively forced up to 70% (by the end of the 18th century) of its population into slavery.
did the Japanese KILL all those slaves, Sperwer?!
Must have been.
There’s so way, way, way many Kim, Park, Lees in Korea, who all claim Yangban jo-sangs, that
That is the only conclusion that could be feasible by calculation alone.
So, the Japanese purified the Korean race, by killing off those slaves for the Yangbans.
Ah, Ha !
Thus, there is now an over abundance of Yangbans in Korea nowadays,
And, we must somehow wonder why the hell the Japanese decided to spare and thus concentrate the Kim, Park, Lees, out of proportion.
Are you a Kim?
Yeah, my ancestor is Kim Yoo Shin, Kim Choon Chu.
Are you a Park?
Yup. Heard of the bak-man, Park Hyuk guh sae?
Are you a Lee?
Hell, yeah. Yi Dyansty. Saejong Dae Wang. Hangul. That’s me.
Hmm…seriously, the only people of Kim, Park, Lee not claiming such ancestry were people living in panja-chons…actually I kind of take that back. I had a dude like that as jjak in elementary school, but at that age, I chose to ignore him for the most part, but he did manage to give me lice.
As a ROK student, I took showers once a week. He smelled like he hasn’t taken one in months. His surname? Park.
No, but the Imjin War afforded the slaves an opportunity to burn many of the slave registries, and others were torched in the oridnary course of the conflict; and slavery only was legally abolished in Korea when it was under remote control by the Japanese shadow of supervisory administration of Count Okuma.
One reason that there is such a market for bogus history in Korea is that so many people would rather not be reminded that they are the progency of slaves and that their ancestors owe their manumission to the Japanese.
Well guys, in my opinion, I think if I was a Japanese imperialist, it would make perfect sense to end “slavery.” Think about it. You are looking for legitimacy with the European imperialists and keeping slavery would be kinda like eating dogs. Embarrassing, uncivilized, so 18th century!
What belongs to the Yangban, doesn’t belong to Japan. So, you need to free these poor people so they can have the “opportunity” to work in Sakhalin Island cutting trees and mining coal, work in munitions factories, be conscripts in Manchuria, and yes… work in the Emperor’s brothels…
@#161:
Slave registries were also torched during the Donghak Rebellion. I knew Koreans whose jokbos dated back only as far as the 1890s. When I asked about possible slave ancestry, I got non-plussed looks.
right enough
what an amazing irony. The Japanese gave the Korean slaves two big chances to escape slave labels.
However, the Japanese didn’t do this because they believed in Democracy, Human rights, etc. That’s utter, complete bullshit. Like Wangkon said, the Japanese did it, to shake up Korean power structure, and take what they needed. Sorry, Natto. Your boys didn’t give us voting rights, treat us with human rights, nor gave us autonomy.
Europeans don’t hesitate to state their last names mean Farmer, Bauer,
Taylor, Cook, Smith, etc.
Koreans never mention their ancestors were named by their jobs.
It’s always, my ancestor is the great general, blah, blah. Or the great and awesome king, blah, blah.
It might be an East Asian thing. Might even include Southeast Asia. Suspiciously high number of Nguyens and Trans. Count in India as well, Patel, Patel, Patel. Actually, I’m not sure about India. Their caste seems relatively strict.
true enough as counterfactual history. In fact, that’s not what happened.
Well, I don’t think that’s why they did it, but they certainly were aware that it would contribute to that end, which was one of their goals – and another positive Japanese contribution, in the sense that Korea had repeatedly demonstrated its own incapacity to get rid of the bloated, self-interested and incompetent ruling class that was the major impediment to any kind of social progress, let alone modernization. The real tragedy of the Japanese-Korean interaction in the late 19th century was that the relatively enlightened approach of Okuma, et al. foundered because of the incompetence of Korean reformers, the obstinacy of the Korean ruling elites and the lingering influence of the Japanese Seikenron faction.
Are you really arguing that ending slavery in Korea is one of the crimes Japan committed?
Then again, since as wjk notes there are no living Koreans whose ancestors were anything other than dispossessed aristocrats, I guess the objection is Damn Japanese robbed me of my right to enslave others! That makes sense, actually.
wjk #165
“However, the Japanese didn’t do this because they belived in Democracy, Human rights, etc. That’s utter, complete bullshit”
I am not so sure about Democracy. However, not only human rights but also animal rights they believed in. In 1685 Tokugawa Tsunayoshi enacted the law of compassion for animals. By this law, dogs were especially protected and the organization of dog doctors was established. Facilities to accomodate and feed stray dogs were built. Those who committed cruelty to animals were severely punished. If you are in doubt, try wikipedia.
Correction: I referred to Okuma on a couple of occasions; I meant Ito.
Brendon,
All I’m saying is… think of it from an imperialist’s perspective. Don’t backwards project American democratic ideals onto late 19th century Japanese. That’s ridiculous!
With so many productive labor people the expressed property of the Yanban, you had to go through the necessary formality of making them no longer bound to a set piece of land to a set class of people. You had to dismantle a feudalistic infrastructure because it was incompatible with Japan’s desire to reorganize the resources of the peninsula for their ends.
Slavery is useless when you want to industrialize an area, which is why the American industrial North abolished it and the agricultural South kept it.
“- and another positive Japanese contribution, in the sense that Korea had repeatedly demonstrated its own incapacity to get rid of the bloated, self-interested and incompetent ruling class that was the major impediment to any kind of social progress, let alone modernization.”
I would agree with that. But let’s be fair, Korea wasn’t the only country that had a parasitic class of people that was an impetiment to modernization. The Chinese had it also and they were carved up like a Christmas turkey by Europe.
Japan also had a parasitic class of people. They were the samurai, a class of warriors that had no wars to fight since the early 17th century. That’s equally as wasteful as either the Yangban or the Mandrains. However, they did have the common sense to appreciate Western methods of war, which then extended into Western methods of industry, government and yes, imperialism. Japan moved from feudalism to a true nation-state in 30 years, something that took Europe 300 years. Kudos to them!
But at around 1860, all three East Asian countries had a wasteful and parasitic ruling class.
Slave registries were also torched during the Donghak Rebellion. I knew Koreans whose jokbos dated back only as far as the 1890s. When I asked about possible slave ancestry, I got non-plussed looks.
Sonagi, I had a white gf who would describe her ethnic makeup as Czech, British, couple more Euro countries that escapes my memory now, and Cherokee. She tended to be especially proud of the Cherokee part.
Anyway, she also had big tits and a big ass. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make. in the streets, Black guys were always checking her out. She would even say, sometimes, with a laugh, that she was a white chick with a black girl’s ass. I suggested maybe there may have been some blacks in her background as well. The response I got, I suppose, was something along the lines of a nonplussed look.
wjk #165
Korean slaves and commoners did not have surnames. Toward the end of the Choson dynasty, a growing number of affluent commoners and entrepreneurs secretly bought the status of nobility and adopted dignitary yangban surnames.
Adopted under the influence of the Japanese government, all Koreans were required to register their full names. Those without surnames mostly adopted the ones of their masters. The Korean surnames, Kim, Lee, Park and Choi were based on admiration and coveting of the status that the name represented, which is the trademark social quality of saving face in Korea.
Well, don’t know much about China, but to be really fair – or accurate, I would say – Japan by 1860 at least was already well on its way formally to disestablishing the samurai- a process that wasn’t without serious conflict, e.g., Saigo’s rebellion, the backdrop for Tom Cruise’s samurai cartoon, but which was accomplished fairly expeditiously because it was the culmination of a long process of copting the samurai into the bureaucracy of the Japanese state, a development that picked up a lot of steam when Japan began to modernize.
But to paraphrase Tina Turner, “What’s fairness got to do with it?” A fact is a fact; Korea’s decrepitude as a polity by the late 19th century – both on its own terms and in terms of the then paradigmatic world order – isn’t in the least ameliorated by the fact that there were other failed states around at the same time.
Recourse to such observations is just a variation of Korean pity pot called han.
But if it makes you feel better to take refuge in a solidarity of shared failure and misery, knock yourself out.
Wangkon, I’m beginning to admire your patience. Brendon’s response was so over the top (I highly doubt he didn’t understand what you actually meant), I think he was simply telling you to shove it. Good for you for still trying to elaborate.
Adding to my previous post, I’m now beyond suprised and onto genuinely amazed. Seriously, where do you guys meet all these living caricatures of the ignorant Korean? Judging from the hostility, I think it’d be fair to assume you’ve met more than a few of these ignorant people, the like who constantly brag about their yangban ancestry. I honestly can’t recall a single conversation in my 25+ years in Korea where a friend bragged about being of yangban descent. Sure I’ve heard some older people mention it (maybe two or three times throughout my life), but only when the topic of ancestry came up. Surely, those kind of passive mentioning couldn’t have been the cause of the digust some of you portray. I suppose there could be some people who try to overcompensate for their unremarkable ancestry by constantly lying about it. But how could you guys all know a few, when I can’t even find one around me? Where are all these people that are hopelessly unaware of these obvious shortcomings of our culture which 99% of the people around me at least acknowledge, if not criticize? Why does a comment that states that it was probably in Japan’s interest in colonizing Korea to free the no-bi’s derided upon, instead of simply being disagreed to?
Like I said, deep-seated resentment towards SOME negative aspects of Korean culture seems to be producing disgust for ALL aspects that that are different from America. I don’t believe for a minute that people who have closely experienced two or more cultures (like everyone here, I presume) don’t realize there is a trade-off between each contrasting characteristic. (E.g., That there are upsides and downsides to indvidualism just as there are to collectivism.) This is why I’m genuinely intrigued (I’m not being sarcastic) by the level of hostility I see here towards Korean culture, which in all fairness is probably not as despicably backward, compared to other cultures in the world, as it’s being made out to be. Who knows, maybe I’m completely missing something. If I am, I’m all ears.
No, I wasn’t simply telling him to shove it. I was highlighting the absurdity of WangKon’s comment — good grief, he even used quotes around the word “slavery” as if we weren’t talking about real slavery.
He’s smarter than that. Yes, good for WangKon for continuing to elaborate on his point — but I already knew he was smart.
It’s quite simple.
Koreans can’t go around claiming to other Koreans that they are descendants of a royal family or yangban, because they’d be recognized as b.s. artists. But if they claim the same to a whitey ignorant of Korean history, they figure there’s a chance he might believe it.
I’m from St. Louis, but graduated from law school (I hesitate to say “attended law school” because I soon lost enthusiasm for that) in Seattle. Wash U offered me a full-tuition scholarship, but put a condition on it: I would have been required to have gotten good grades to keep it. Otherwise tuition would go back up to $24,000 a year. No, thank you.
U Dub, on the other hand, had tuition of $3500 a year for law school, and, more importantly, a rising Division 1 basketball team playing in an intimate bandbox arena. Thanks to the socialist dopes of the State of Washington for all those ballgames.
Got that right! Western Washington politics are fucked up like a football bat!
I’m a believer in good state universities, though. They provide — or formerly provided — avenues for state residents to improve their opportunities and lot in life. Until I was 13 my father was a professor of social work at the University of Missouri (growing up with social workers, trust me — I know what I’m talking about when I decry stupid lefty politics).
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