Seems like our friendly neighbors across the West Sea have been using the burning of Sungnyemun Gate to have a little classless fun :
Curious to see how this tragic event was being covered in the Chinese media, I visited some internet portals and after browsing the news stories, I read the comment threads and was shocked at the almost uniformly nasty vitriol spewed by Chinese netizens: scornful jokes about the unimpressiveness of the gate and put-downs of Korean culture and history, punctuated by the epithet “gaoli bangzi,” a favorite anti-Korean slur.
The anonymity of the internet is the refuge of scoundrels everywhere; however, one would expect message threads on major portals like Sina and Tianya to contain some voices of reason, yet nearly every Chinese netizen posting on the threads used the loss of a historically important city gate as an excuse to ridicule Korea and Koreans, revealing themselves as a classless and mean-spirited bunch.
Nice. Real nice.
(HT to reader)
{ 177 comments… read them below or add one }
after browsing through, I agree with some points.
Foreign tribes which invaded China accepted Han Chinese culture, not the other way around.
China is all about China. The Center of the WORLD, they think.
stop assuming all of us yellow skins are Chinese. It’s a grave insult.
not that we make any such distinctions for white or black folk.
China, Korea, Japan are destined for war.
the prophet, baduk, has said so.
I agree.
Particularly ironic when you consider how the Chinese government reacted when a Korean pet shop owner was using a photoshopped picture of the Tiananmen.
Holy smokes, that’s pretty damn low by the Chinese. However, because it’s coming from China (as opposed to Japan), I am wondering whether or not the Koreans will just accept it since they seem to try to do anything to avoid upsetting or offending China at all costs, even if it means kowtowing to the Chinese as a “master”. On the other hand, if this was coming from Japan, then Koreans would unleash hell…and going so far as to do so with a joyful grin as they really don’t mind, but rather enjoy engaging in a chance to trash the country to the east. I really wonder why it is that they don’t act in the same way to the country to their west. Is it Sinocentrism?
However, I do remember how many Koreans were reported celebrating and posting on the internet joyful messages of how they were happy that many Japanese were killed during the 1995 Hanshin Earthquake and the train derailing a few years ago in Hyogo prefecture. I guess what comes around goes around.
Chinese have a very difficult time accepting that Koreans went beyond the peninsula and into PRC territory for a short time.
Why? Korea chose to be a tributary to China since 668AD. How dare they change stances after 1000s of years !
Baekje’s presence in China is based 95% on south Chinese kingdom records. It’s denied and not mentioned in Samguk books written by Mr. Kim.
Goguryo is mentioned as a foreign barbarian nation, not of Han Chinese origin. In Chinese history books. After swallowing up Khitan, Manchu, Mongolian, Tibet, PRChina wants to say these barbarian tribe were Chinese after all. They should, too. How embarassing to have been ruled under Yuan and Qing under 100s of Years! Nah, they were Chinese, too.
Of interest, Goguryo is mentioned in Romance of the Three Kingdoms…not as Han Chinese, though.
You are Chinese after all~,
You are Chinese after all~,
You are Chinese after all~,
You are Chinese after all…
look at the Chinese coming clean, and saying they consider the
Vietnamese “inferior” as well.
add Vietnam to the great East Asian War.
ROK will probably kowtow to China, continuing the stance they took, since they betrayed 2/3 of the peninsula kingdoms.
Going to that Peking Duck blog is like when the Simpsons kids in Springfield went over to Shelbyville to recapture the mythic lemon tree.
Ugh…
In a related topic, looks like they have a new plan for Namdaemoon:
http://www.koreadaily.com/asp/article.asp?sv=la&src=metr&cont=metr&typ=1&aid=20080212200108200200
Wouldn’t that expansion seriously mess with the traffic around there though?
“The anonymity of the internet is the refuge of scoundrels everywhere”
Really? Who would have thought? Thanks for the heads up!!
“one would expect message threads on major portals like Sina and Tianya to contain some voices of reason”
Really? Why would you think that? By your own account, “The anonymity of the internet is the refuge of scoundrels everywhere.”
“nearly every Chinese netizen posting on the threads used the loss of a historically important city gate as an excuse to ridicule Korea and Koreans, revealing themselves as a classless and mean-spirited bunch”
Really? Who are you calling classless and mean-spirited? The “scoundrels” on the internet? Chinese people in general? (that is the obvious connotation)So, what is the point of posting this ridiculous article? To bash Chinese people because SOME of them bash Korea?
Brilliant! Hate feeds hate. Stupidity feeds stupidity. Congratulations on being a part of the cycle!
It’s not much worse than the scoundrels who write graffiti on the Great Wall.
http://dereck.i.ph/photo/v/Photos/miphotos/j_CIMG008623928.jpg.html
I guess, but to be fair there is graffiti written and trash strewn all over the Great Wall, so it’s not a Korean thing at all.
Not sure if you caught it, but some pics of Japanese tourists posing and smiling in front of the burned down Namdaemun was the most-viewed piece on Cyworld News a day or two ago. The photos are gone from the cyworld site—from the looks of it—but the comments are still there:
http://cynews.cyworld.com/Service/news/ShellView.asp?LinkID=4&ArticleID=2008021214052890120
The photos are here: http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com/2008/02/shameful-scene.html
No, because they are building those walls on existing land which BTW doesn’t involve any removal of current roads.
Something that will be obvious if one were to look at photos of Namdaemun or maps of Seoul.
“I guess, but to be fair there is graffiti written and trash strewn all over the Great Wall, so it’s not a Korean thing at all.”
One does not excuse the other.
Tourists smiling in a picture? Well, gee, I never saw that before.
It’s always nice to know that some people have even less of a social life than I do.
# 8,
In all fairness, I can imagine if Zojoji temple or Sensouji temple in Tokyo burned down some stupid Korean kids would take smiling pictures with V signs as the hulks smolder in the background.
Just as long as people in East Asia aren’t shooting each other I think we’ll be okay.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23277872@N06/2232991291/
@3) I remember the last Korean Independence Day celebration I attended at city hall (two years ago?) when the fireworks and giant video projection culminated in footage of an atomic bomb going off, that is Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the corresponding roaring cheers from all the Koreans surrounding me…
#14,
I remember last time I went to Pagoda Park with my wife. Old men were insulting her just because she was with me. I just thought it was so damned ironic given the place we were at. I guess these old farts had never heard of Dr. Frank Schofield.
Genki japanese girls smile because they are genki. I don’t think those smiling tourists were gloating at their nation’s former imperial subject’s loss. Then again, when I was an elementary student, I wasn’t taken to a museum where I saw wax figures of evil Japanese oppressors torturing wax figures of my countrymen, etc., so I such blind hate weren’t properly instilled into me.
These girls were probably Japanese girls excited to visit Sparkling Seoul, the Soul of Asia.
Yes, the kids (and yes, it is almost invariably kids) on Sina and Tianya are being cunts. But is it even worth taking these people seriously? Who looks to 4chan for social commentary?
See also:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
#13, I had no idea Dokdo was so densely populated.
We shouldn’t take those nasty comments by Chinese netizens seriously. Let them have their say, let them have their day. We don’t have to stoop so low to their level.
As far as I know the majority of Chinese people do respect Koreans and their culture. They see them as cousins.
You’re surprised at this?
It’s starting to get dangerous to be a Korean in China. One of the Samsung managers in China had his hand cut off by a Chinese mob because he dared to fire a subcontractor providing substandard food. So far the Korean media has covered up all kinds of assaults and hate crimes against Korean nationals because they don’t want to disturb their number one trading nation.
Scoundrels aren’t the only people who post comment on message boards. Nice people like us leave comments, too.
Please reread the quote you are commenting on. The subject of the sentence is “nearly every Chinese netizen who posted on the threads;” that is who “revealing themselves to be a classless and mean-spirited bunch” refers to.
Please notice that I posted at the Peking Duck, not the Marmot’s Hole. Many of the Peking Duck’s readers and commenters are Chinese; commenters of several nationalities have speculated as to the reasons for ill will towards Korea among some Chinese netizens and how widespread this is.
@21) Cover-up?
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200801/200801240015.html
ru86ed, a little chippy there? “Nearly every Chinese netizen posting on the threads” somehow equals all Chinese? There was nothing ambiguous or difficult to understand about how she phrased it. Are you “likes to fight guy”? All the vitriol you are projecting is non-existent and you seem to be the type to imagine a shit-storm on a sunny day. ru86ed?
Um, those Japanese tourists aren’t posing in front of the destroyed building, the only one posing is the girl on the right, and she’s facing 90 degrees away and to the side of it.
“One of the Samsung managers in China had his hand cut off by a Chinese mob because he dared to fire a subcontractor providing substandard food.”
I suspect the Chinese probably share more genes with their Arabic brothers to be able to commit such an act.
“So far the Korean media has covered up all kinds of assaults and hate crimes against Korean nationals because they don’t want to disturb their number one trading nation.”
I think it’s probably more because of the journalists’ fear of the the Chinese thugs than the trade loss.
“Korea, meet your neighbour, oh; and resume the position”
Why no flak on the local TV news about this noise??
Beers for those who can answer.
#21,
That’s not a hate crime, that’s a mob hit. It just shows that there’s a lot of money to be made in China and that consequently there are bastards who will stop at nothing to claim a bigger share of the profits than they deserve.
To be fair, the feeling is mutual across the West Sea. Check out the comments for this particular post.
http://bemil.chosun.com/brd/view.html?tb=BEMIL085&pn=3&num=102125
#24
“All the vitriol you are projecting is non-existent”
I’m sorry. I must have misunderstood this
“China is all about China. The Center of the WORLD, they think. Stop assuming all of us yellow skins are Chinese. It’s a grave insult.”
Or this
“Holy smokes, that’s pretty damn low by the Chinese”
And, of course this
look at the Chinese coming clean, and saying they consider the Vietnamese “inferior” as well.
add Vietnam to the great East Asian War.
ROK will probably kowtow to China, continuing the stance they took, since they betrayed 2/3 of the peninsula kingdoms.
And my favorite
“It’s starting to get dangerous to be a Korean in China. One of the Samsung managers in China had his hand cut off by a Chinese mob.”
Do you see anywhere in these comments the poster limiting their thoughts to the “Chinese netizen[s] posting on the threads”? No.
As I said, posting a comment about people hating other people simply causes more people to crap on about how they hate people, too!
Comment #24, which was mischaracterized or misread by #29, was attempting to correct comment #7′s mischaracterization or misreading of the original Sonagi post. I share your concern about hateful comments begetting hateful comments, but you gotta read more carefully.
Koreans do it to everyone else, so they’re getting what they deserve. Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals. All Chinese are 3rd world, dirty, smelly people to Koreans. If Koreans don’t like it, them should shut the fuck up about others.
then…
How many of you recall the cheering by the Koreans over 9/11? And now to have Korea equate the, albeit tragic, loss of Namdaemun to the loss of the Twin Towers and thousands of lives? How offensive can it get?
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200802/200802120011.html
Off topic:
Another US on-campus mass shooting has just occurred (sometime in the last couple of hours, prior to 2PM PDT US. At Northern Illinois University campus, DeKalb Illinois, about 65 miles w of Chicago.
A large campus, about 40,000 students. Gunman (white male?) opened fire in a lecture hall, early report is 18 total shot, at least 3 dead (one of whom is evidently the shooter, by his own hand). Gunman had a shotgun and a pistol.
A very prelim story link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-14-shooting_N.htm
And… Bai Ling got arrested for shoplifting:
LOS ANGELES, Feb 14 (Reuters Life!) – Chinese-born actress Bai Ling was arrested for shoplifting at Los Angeles International Airport after a gift shop employee accused her of stealing two magazines and a pack of batteries, police said on Thursday.
Ling, who has appeared in such films as “The Crow” and “Red Corner,” was taken into custody on Wednesday afternoon after leaving the store with two tabloid magazines and the batteries, Los Angeles Airport Police spokesman Jim Holcomb said.
She was booked on suspicion of shoplifting the items worth $16, a misdemeanor, and ordered to appear in court on May 5.
Some reporter reports the sentiments of a few people and then, of course, some moron ascribes these sentiments to an entire nation as the official stance.
Truth be told, any comparison between Namdaemun and 9/11 is ridiculous. But let’s not misunderstand and misrepresent what the report is about. I’m pretty sure that nobody is saying the burning of Namdaemun is equivalent to 9/11 in any sense- definitely not the full blown sense- except in the very particular sense of what it was like to see a national monument, a symbol of a country, burn to the ground in real time.
And, by the way, I certainly wasn’t celebrating 9/11 and don’t know any Koreans who were, just the opposite. I guess we missed the memo that states that we, as Koreans a part of the uniform entity “the Koreans”, were supposed to be celebrating acts of terrorism that result in mass destruction and tragic loss of life.
ru86ed, understood. You’re right about the dynamics of hate. It feeds on itself. On the other hand if you start throwing around the race card when it doesn’t exist it dilutes the instances of genuine racism. Kinda like the boy who cried wolf. People tend to be less alarmed.
Nough said.
abcblahblahblahblah, that was well put. Often we accredit large groups of people with the sentiment of the few. It may be a simple matter of what they’re saying is so dischordant that it seems louder. I’m certain that most Koreans were aghast on 9-11.
I must say I was not a big fan when I first started reading your posts. That’s starting to change.
Gillian’s #33 is certainly a really dumb complaint. Psychological effects of a disaster on people can surely be indicated by analogy to famous incidents in other nations, and there is never any requirement that there be proportionality of actual damage — it’s just about people’s feelings, the intensity of which nobody has any right to snootily judge.
If you’ve ever been trying to console a western boy or even man whose dog just died, you’d know that his emotions are as deep and real as anybody who was watching TV on 9/11, tho hopefully much more temporary. Namdae-mun is deeply symbolic to many Koreans, and the *psychological devastation to them* of the torching of its wooden superstructure can legitimately be compared to the same inpact on anyone anywhere about anything — comparrison of the actual physical damage is entirely another subject, and quite beside the point at the time.
I did not post at the Marmot’s Hole. I posted at the Peking Duck. This was a deliberate choice. I wanted to elicit opinions from Chinese and expat commenters. The thread over there has gone off-topic with bilateral bickering, but I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. Chinese and Koreans arguing about Duanwu/Dano or Goguryo isn’t hateful in and of itself although any argument about even the most trivial topic can turn nasty. Our blogger host can attest to that.
Koreans do it to everyone else, so they’re getting what they deserve.”
Considering our attitude, is it really that shocking to learn that we pretty poorly thought of all around the world?
To know us is to observe us pumping up our fragile egos at the expense of others.
Honestly, since coming back to the States, my wife and I have assiduously avoided other Koreans – we are just too tired of the incessant arrogance, boasting and being subjected to others’ judgemental material standards, something we seldom get from non-Koreans. After decades, it’s really gotten old.
We have now come to sympathize when we hear Chinese people say they don’t like Koreans.
As for 9/11, at Samsung, my colleagues were emailing around a cartoon lampooning the attack on the WTC, which they found quite hillarious.
Anyway, pretty soon many Koreans will calm down and realize that the most important part of the Sunnye-mun, the Actual Gateway, is made of good Korean granite and has survived this disgusting assault just fine. The relatively-quite-transitory fancy-lookin’ wooden pavilion on top will be rebuilt, as it would’ve needed to in time anyway, and when the paint fades it’ll look exactly the same up there on its super-strong foundation. And perhaps some good analogy can then be drawn from this minor tragedy about the Korean character in general…
It was an unwise decision by the Chosun Ilbo reporter or editor to lead with the 9.11 quote, however legit the sentiments might have been by those distressed individuals who expressed them at the moment.
“Honestly, since coming back to the States, my wife and I have assiduously avoided other Koreans – we are just too tired of the incessant arrogance, boasting and being subjected to others’ judgemental material standards”
You’re right. I have the same feelings myself too. In fact, remind me to avoid you and your wife too.
The Chinese netizens are right on one thing at least, the gate was rather unimpressive. It wasn’t even that tall or big to begin with. Why did government select it as national treasure #1?
And to clarify further, it’s not the nasty comments themselves but the absence of any rebukes by other netizens that surprises me. On North American national news comment threads, one finds racist, sexist, homophobic, and other bigoted comments. However, these hateful posts rarely dominate a thread, and there are always others calling commenters on their hate speech. This doesn’t seem to be the case with Chinese (and Korean) news boards, and I wonder why this is. That is why I sought comments from TPD readers.
Because it was the first one to be numbered.
#48:
sonagi, one reason might be this:
because such a high number of koreans and chinese refuse to acknowledge that racism exists in their respective countries, they don’t find their bigoted comments or the bigoted comments of others offensive.
This thread is like an orgy of generalizing the Korean population about how they like to generalize. The hypocrisy is hilarious.
“Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals. All Chinese are 3rd world, dirty, smelly people to Koreans. If Koreans don’t like it, them should shut the fuck up about others.”
Yes. Thank you so much for reminding me of how my genetic dispositions make me think. I’m going to go ahead and tell everyone I know who’s not Korean “Hey… Sorry about this, but my genes are telling me that I hate you.”
Classic racism…
“And to clarify further, it’s not the nasty comments themselves but the absence of any rebukes by other netizens that surprises me.”
Funny… I could have said the exactly the same thing about this thread.
I don’t understand why some posters here assume that Koreans are more tolerant of Chinese offenses compared to Japanese ones. Granted, the Roh administration was a major suck-up for China, but that’s just a retarded president. Majority of Koreans do not agree with his policies, including his foreign policies.
I must say that China, Japan and Korea all have their share of ignorant assholes who would senselessly denigrate other cultures and peoples. Even in this very blog, we have one such individual, Jing. I think one excellent site to look at Korean responses to various posts made in foreign forums is http://www.gesomoon.com. It’s a nice place if you want to read about ignorant assholes from all parts, including Koreans.
That aside, however, I’d like to say that among the nationalisms of the three countries, Chinese nationalism is the most threatening to peace and most rampant among its urban populations(I won’t say the same for rural populations because I haven’t experienced them), not to mention the Chinese government itself actively sponsors aggressive nationalism for political ends.
“http://www.koreadaily.com/asp/…..0108200200
Wouldn’t that expansion seriously mess with
the traffic around there though?”
Not much you can do about the traffic unless you relocate Seoul
Station, or bury some tracks.
In my opinion the best thing to do with Namdaemun is move it as
far south as possible, about 90 meters, and eliminate the lawn on
the south. Have pedestrians converge into a very cramped urban
gate/wall entrance area near the existing office tower, and lead
them through a small entrance in the wall/gate to the north
side. Once through the gate and into the city they enter
the great Namdaemun lawn, and move out to the
market, city hall, etc….turning back to see Namdaemun in all
its glory.
The old Seoul Station is torn down and the tracks leading
north are buried undeground as far north as the second
crossing. The vehicular overpass just north
of Seoul Staion is taken down, and in its place is a huge
“constant flow” traffic circle just northeast
of the Seoul Station. The main entrance to the new station is now
to the north, traffic no longer stops on the east side.
Departing Seoul Station travelers can see the gate’s rooftops in the distance lit up just above the wall.
or something
As far as the sentiment issue goes, I came to Korea not long after 9/11 and I had teachers as well as students tell me that “Americans deserved it.” I have seen the cartoons about 9/11 generated in Korea.
As far as phychological effects on people, watching Namdaemun burn hardly compares to watching people jump to their death out of a burning building.
I am not discounting the emotional response to seeing an historical landmark distroyed, but the feeling that one is being attacked by an “Outside” enemy holds a whole different set of emotions. No one in Korea felt under attack. Everyone in the United States did. That is the difference.
I agree with you, bumfromkorea. While I enjoy this blog thoroughly for its interesting contents (e.g. the recent post on the gates) and Koehler’s photo essays, I can’t help but notice that the behaviors of many commenters on this blog mirror the behaviors of those idiotic Korean/Chinese/whatevs “netizens” who make racially and culturally insenstive comments and get away with it. It’s unfortunate that the commenters who critize Koreans for being narrow-minded and racist seem to make some appalling generalizations such as this one themselves.
Well, I guess it’s a matter of taste. Frankly, I felt the same way when I went to the Great Wall.
Unlike, ahem, a certain other East Asian nation, scale hasn’t been an obsession of Korean traditional architecture.
Actually, the Japanese colonial government did. And the numbers don’t mean anything — they just represent the time order in which the properties were listed.
If it’s covered up, how do _you_ know about it?
As I’ve said a 1,000 times, expats take on the characteristics of their host nation to a greater degree than perhaps they’re given credit for.
I think that conclusion is off the mark. Most Chinese and Koreans would find obvious bigotry offensive. I think North American news threads are more balanced because a)some, though not all, of the commenters are members of the offended group; and b) non-members feel the need to distance themselves from the offenders.
i live in a korea-town in china (a very rich one where upper-middle class koreans live much more luxuriously than they would in korea), and in my opinion both groups tolerate eachother in a rather subtle way. but give them a chancce to whisper their true feelings and it is easy to see why their is a silent rivalry. koreans think chinese are lower on the pedestal (lack of plastic surgery, different levels of hygene, fashion, and speech), while chinese simply laugh at korean culture and let them do their thing here in china knowing full well that the future of asia is in china.
An old man on a train once told me that China is shaped like a chicken…and Korea is its beak. Once the chicken gains its beak (North Korea falls), it will lay the egg (Taiwan), and eat the worm (Japan). Then Asia will be the EU with the RMB becoming the Asian euro. This won’t happen until the next “year of the chicken” comes along though. It is amazing how much economics in Asia is based on dates and supersition. The burning of Namdaemun, by some, can only be seen as sign that the beak is weakening.
#55 – Many Koreans compare the Sungnyemun Fire to 9/11 because a national icon has been destroyed. The destruction of Sungnyemun was not nearly as terrible as 9/11 (most people would agree with me), but it should be understood that Sungnyemun was very symbolic. It represented Korea’s past and also its future, and the struggles in between (it survived the Japanese Occupation and the Korean War).
Lack of plastic surgery is considered lower on the pedestal?
Sonagi, why did you post this? Now Korea is getting bashed left, right, Chinese, and expats taking turns. LOL.
Yeah, Koreans shouldn’t have let the gate burn, so they deserve this.
And poo poo that Chosun Ilbo, they made that infamous stupid comment about 9/11. Now all of Korea is stuck with the label of trying to demean Americans and their tragedy 7 years ago.
“The burning of Namdaemun, by some, can only be seen as sign that the beak is weakening.”
Talk about weakening now. Do you think China is aiming to squash Korea or the US? My bet is on the latter. Evidence? The recent spy case of Boeing secrets being handed over to China. I would say the beak itself is the United States.
#61 – Haha, China is shaped like a chicken? Now that I think about it, it does. Although to me it looks more like a duck.
What you’re implying, though, is that China will one day conquer Taiwan, Korea, and Japan? I’m sorry, but I don’t think that will ever happen.
Actually you won’t here any arguement from me Marmot. I really don’t care for the great wall. Climbing the thing is a bitch and really once you’ve seen one part of it, you’ve seen it all. It really isn’t that interesting from the ground, but is more appreciable from the air.
However, I will disagree regarding the issue of scale. Bigger is always better when it comes to landmarks. Afterall the Egyptians didn’t try to build sequentially smaller pyramids.
Stop whining #51. Learn to recognize racism. I was telling you exactly how most Koreans act and think. You got any evidence to the contrary? I got A SHIT LOAD of evidence to back my opinion up. If you don’t like too bad. Like Koreans say, if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.
Hey English Teachers: “You are being watched!”
I remember quite a few Koreans were happy about 9/11. The rest worried about what may happen to their economy. No racism in Korea eh Bum? Just victims.
Koreans, if you stop talking trash about others, and you do…you may not get trash talked yourselves.
@AussieThunder
You know, I’m kinda bored and midterm just finished. I’ll play with you.
“Stop whining #51. Learn to recognize racism.”
I believe you’re the one who made statements like “Koreans are [insert various characteristics]“. How different is that from pawi’s statements like “Expats are [insert various characteristics].”?
“I was telling you exactly how most Koreans act and think.”
So, you know exactly how 24,000,000+ people act and think, huh? You must be either the world’s greatest/most efficient pollster/psychologist/anthropologist, or you must be a psychic. Personally, I think latter is more likely.
“I got A SHIT LOAD of evidence to back my opinion up.”
I wonder how many evidences can prove your ridiculously absolutist statement: “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals. All Chinese are 3rd world, dirty, smelly people to Koreans.”
Let me guess. They’re all quotes from netizens.
Once again, ‘Generalizing is bad unless I do it’ mentality strikes!
“I remember quite a few Koreans were happy about 9/11. The rest worried about what may happen to their economy.”
Well, at least you’re giving us two choices of opinions rather than one. I guess that’s an improvement.
“No racism in Korea eh Bum? Just victims.”
Lol… that’s it. Make stuff up. Makes you look more like an idiot.
A SHIT LOAD of evidence to show that MOST Koreans hate non-Koreans? OK, let’s see what you got.
May I assume by “the rest,” you’re including the Koreans who were laying flowers in front of the US embassy?
Maybe the Chinese are angry about this Hankyoreh reporter.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IE26Dg01.html
Is it me or has bum implicitly stated that he wants nothing to do with pawi? This from a guy who once defended pawi in public.
The Chinese have a massive superiority complex. Its practically driven into them with distorted history and communist propaganda about how China was the greatest country in the world.
So when there is a country out doing them they develop anti-xxxx sentiments. Japan and Korea are both extremely hated in China. The west is really hated, they resent the fact that Americans/Europeans are better than them.
Honestly China needs to be held down and bomb to shit, I hope as a Korean, the US smartens up and sends China back to the ching chong dynasty.
@#73
there are some comments that are so asinine, it has to be rebuked on. But then again, there are some comments that are really, really idiotic that doesn’t even need logical rebuttal. This, I believe, is such a case.
Well, bum, to be fair, your comments are sometimes idiotic too.
Honestly China needs to be held down and bomb to shit, I hope as a Korean, the US smartens up and sends China back to the ching chong dynasty.
You need to be raped by Rosie O’Donnell wearing a dildo strap.
@#76
Such as?
“Is it me or has bum implicitly stated that he wants nothing to do with pawi? This from a guy who once defended pawi in public.”
Lol, yes min. The discussion here is actually a team game of GyoposTM vs. ExpatsTM where I agree with everything pawi says just because I defended him once.
“You need to be raped by Rosie O’Donnell wearing a dildo strap.”
I bow down to your greatness, Netizen Kim. How did you come up with that one? Awesome..totally awesome.
But damn frightening image.
#79.
Since this is an Expat vs Kyopo spat and since you are part of the Kyopo team, yeah one can assume that you are agreeing with him. Unless of course, you think pawi is part of the Expat team?
Also what’s it with the Expats and Kyopos spat? Why are American and Canadian citizens, who know little about Korea, for that matter, arguing with their countrymen, about Korea?
And now, you can’t even detect sarcasm anymore. I guess I’ll have to spell it out in plain language.
Just because I agreed and/or defended pawi on one issue does not inherently means that I agree with every issue with pawi. It’s really stupid to think that gyopos think alike (your assertion) – in fact, as stupid as thinking that expats think alike (pawi’s assertion).
And what idiotic things have I said in the past, mins?
I was also being sarcastic. Of course you haven’t detected that either.
Lol. Touche.
And it looks like bum helps prove the common Korean stereotype that Kyopos have no manners at all.
Lol… this is just going to be strings of personal attacks, isn’t it? I’ll read it tomorrow.
Personal attacks? LOL. Wow, bum you do live in utopia.
Let’s do this bitch MadLibs style
Bumfromkorea, wasn’t your comment at 75 a response to Korean-Canadian’s post which is now at 74?
I would have sworn min’s post, the following cm’s at 72, didn’t exist at the time I read your post.
If not, or if you don’t understand what I’m writing about, nevermind.
BTW, I must have anger-management issues because, frankly, if I could take a wooden bat and crack it over the skulls of racist knucklehead kyopos such as Korean-Canadian above, I think I would. Well, not really…. I’d hate to be one of those “kyopos with no manners” which Uncle Mins seems bent on proving.
This blog is so complex at times.
Mins, I don’t get you, man.
Why are you picking on Bum? He’s one of the more reasonable and sane kyopo’s on this forum, unlike me.
Bumfromkorea’s all right in my book.
And just to clear things up, I believe 75 was about Korean-Canadian’s post, but the numberings changed once I OK’d some comments being held in the Moderation List.
The only kyopo I know of who can be considered as “reasonable and sane” is WangKon936. The others, I wonder why they act in a matter that leaves them wide open to criticism by the other non-Korean commentators here.
Right, a Korean cannot be critical of Korea without being called Uncle something or other, ironically by Americans, who are under the illusion that they are part of the big happy clan.
Your thinking has some flaws, Min.
You care too much about what others, esp non-Koreans think. This is what I hate most about old-fashioned Korean thinking. It is so obsequious. It is not dignified behavior.
I wouldn’t have such a problem with you if you applied your standard across the board. The expats are certainly not above criticism here but you seem to single out kyopos. Why is that?
You need not feel so apologetic about what other kyopos say or how they behave. It’s no reflection on you. We are all individuals, responsible only for our own words and actions. What you need to be more concerned are the asinine generalizations, esp by these expats, which they reinforce time and time again about Koreans.
Are Korean students taught that all Chinese people smell and don’t take showers or wash their hair often enough?
If I had 천원 for every time that when Chinese people were being discussed by me with a Korean that they were very quick to make sure that I knew that Chinese people were dirty and smell…
This includes conversations with Korean lawyers, researchers, stewardesses, and other people with an educated background or in international positions. I’m sure that Chinese people, thanks to the three quarters of a billion who live in near poverty in the countryside, on average can’t clean up as well as richer Korea, but until I’ve been educated by Korean people, I didn’t realize that all Chinese are clearly very filthy being.
Hey wait a minute I am confused here…
Both Netizen Kim and mins hate Koreans? Or do they both hate kyopos? Or do they hate white people in Korea? Or do they hate white people in foreign countries? Or does one of them hate kyopos and the other hate Koreans?
I thought one of them or both of them are kyopos..or are both white guys posing as kyopos who hate each other? Or do they really like each other but pretend to hate each other?
What a tangled web we weave here. You guys help a brother out. I need the cliff notes for this soap opera.
bbundaegi, you bring the beer and whatever beer snacks you want and i’ll bring the cliffs notes.
i’m completely lost myself, so much so that i can’t summon enough energy to respond to sonagi’s response to my response to her opinion of something about koreans and chinese.
we may not get it all right, who’s whom and where who’s from and who’s wearing what and all, but at least we’ll have a few drinks and a bit of fun.
and who knows, we might even be able to parlay our version of the cliffs notes into a marketable screenplay or something…?
Actually I don’t care what the other non-Koreans and/or expats for that matter think. If I did I would be spending a lot of time battling it out with the non-Korean/expat commentators here. Just like pawi, bum, and cm.
Yes you’re right expats are not above criticism. Actually I didn’t care much about the kyopo commentators here either. I mean if they wanted to battle it out with the expats, well it’s their choice. Now as I once said I don’t mind criticism, there are commentators who disagree with me, say it in a respectable manner, and I leave it at that. But if a commentator start calling me “Uncle Kim”, or something like that whether they be expat or kyopo, I certainly wouldn’t treat them with respect. You will recall that there are two Canadian(not Korean Canadian) commentators that I’m not really fond of.
Who said I was feeling apologetic regarding what others kyopos say?
Aw, c’mon, guys, let’s not end the week this way. We’ve got a whole weekend to dis each others’ identities. Friday, 5 pm, and I’m thinking beers will do everyone a world ‘o good. Let’s call this one a tie and head for the Hof.
beers? I assumed you’d be off sniffing girls hair in gangnam station again this friday evening.
Well I wouldn’t mind a beer. Not sure about the anti-expat commentators, though.
So have Linkd been slapped by one of the girls in question? Or been dragged to the nearest police box?
99 was a reference to linkd’s “poetry” a weekend or so back.
mins, why are you here? i thought you said you were going on vacation. let this fellow korean give you some advice about quitting the marmot’s hole: forget it!
i’ve promised myself many times that i was done with this place only to discover an irresistible urge to return. i’ve finally accepted that i will be visiting until it’s closed or marmot ejects me.
you’ll be doing the same.
ps i can’t stand you either but rest assured i’d be by your sorry side if someone attacked you for simply being an expat korean.
As just one humble white-American with vague pretensions of knowing something in general about the history of the development of human civilization, i have to say they are one ethnic group that kinda deserves to have one. Most Chinese that i’ve met, and that’s been more than a few, handle it with good Confucian politeness, Daoist perspective and Buddhist grace — they just know and assume the reality that was, are quietly proud and loyal, don’t try to push it in anybody’s face. It seems that many of their younger internet posters do not display these qualities, but they will probably mature over time, as the new dynasty of their nation does.
I would say that’s just plain History — don’t know what you have read or seen or heard to the contrary. Considering some fairly rigorous criteria for that title, China has in fact been the greatest country in the world a number of different times in the past — distinctly more times than any other nation on earth. The only way you have any competition at all is if you consider all of Europe as one unit — and even then China comes out ahead.
I’m not any kind of raging Sinophile for emotional reasons — my heart is with America and Korea in fact. But it seems to me to be just objective reality — anybody with a survey of global history over the past 3000 years that has a different conclusion, i’d truly be interested to listen to it…
And nothing of Korea’s history can be understood without this perspective, that from its beginning Korea grew up in the shadow of this huge incredible “older brother” civilization — imitating and maintaining distinctions and competing and admiring and rivalry and fighting against and submitting to and maintaining independence from.
@102
Your loyalty to mins is touching. But, who would ever attack someone simply for being an expat?
@103 sanshinseon,
Maybe you should actually be friends with some Chinese first, instead of basing you opinion of media and history.
Confucian principles, collectivist culture and everything that comes with that does not work. What you get are a group of petty people who get jealous of everything. Honestly the Chinese are probably the most jealous people on the planet, I refer mostly to men though.
You develop a superiority complex to combat insecurity. Chinese have zero concept of being security or confident, they’re too busy rationalizing their shitiness.
China was great? It was conquered for half its history by different people. Tell me what made China the greatest? It is huge, but far from great. Chinese have disgusting manners and are probably the most ugly people on the planet. I have yet to see a good looking Chinese person and I fail to see how any country can be great when they surpress everything.
Korea’s history can be understood with or without China. Korea’s culture and history is influenced by Buddhism not China, but given our location things are transmitted through China from India & Tibet.
The truth is China has little to do with most culture in Asia. If you knew exactly what Confucius’ teachings were you’d realize that most Asian countries have almost nothing to do with Confucius.
The central conduit of culture is Buddhism, most of Confucius’ ideas and the same with Taoism existed long after Buddhism was founded.
The real center of Asian culture is India, not China.
Hey, let’s all come together in unity to celebrate our common hatred of the Japs.
I’m sorry but I have no loyalty nor do I particularly like China. They have been there, thats about it. I have no problem seeing China remain in poverty for another 100 years if it protects Korea from Communist China.
If you were really raised in a Korean family you would know Korean’s do not hold the Chinese in some kind of special light. There’s a reason why we hate the Chinese in Korea, we want nothing to do with them.
This relatively recent anti-Americanism is due to USFK crimes which were then exploited by President Roh. Roh being pro-N.K. and China was a huge mistake for this country. The people know that. This is what happens when you vote liberals into power, you get dumb shit like the Sunshine policy.
Contrary to what you may see in the media, people who get educated in America, or were born there and come to Korea have more and better opportunities.
So pls dont talk about what you dont know , pretending to be us and assume to talk for us.
Minus all the racist drivel, I agree partly with Korean-Canadian, that the Chinese have a massive inferiority complex toward Korea, unfitting of a humungus country that everyone is saying it will economically overtake the United States.
excuse me, bumfromkorea, is it your intention to come off as a reasonable korea? you’re doing a good job. thus, i’ll let you and abcdefg handle that. i have other intentions as you already know.
and you’re right; i do tend to stereotype the expat. that’s my intention. as for you insults: yawn.
i won’t spend too much time attacking a fellow korean as long he no attackee the minjok.
and mins, why do you care what others think about koreans? are you one of those koreans who feel giddy to know gweneth likes bibimpap?
For the THIRD and hopefully last time, I did not post here. I posted at TPD.
Moreover, how many threads DON’T turn into the usual fights between the usual suspects? Even the recent T&A link got derailed quickly.
‘Moreover, how many threads DON’T turn into the usual fights between the usual suspects? Even the recent T&A link got derailed quickly.’ sonagi
and i suppose YOU aren’t part of the ‘usual suspects’, right? wrong!
#94,
Yeah, I’ve heard that one, too. I’ve also heard, “I don’t like Chinese food because it’s to oily” ad nausea.
Oh, I like to yank your chain on occasion, Pawi. As I’ve told you before,
놀리는사람 좋아한다
‘I agree partly with Korean-Canadian, that the Chinese have a massive inferiority complex toward Korea…’ cm
i’m rather surprised that the chinese seem to have a knowledge base about korea. during my lifetime, most chinese people i met, had very little understanding of korea and it’s culture. indeed, i remember one time i was reading a korean newspaper back in the early 80′s at some chinese restaurant, and got asked by the chinese waiter whether the newspaper was japanese. he thought that because he didn’t know koreans used chinese characters* as well.
we koreans should take it as a compliment the chinese are so aware of our culture. of course, they spit on it because they are insecure in the same way koreans are insecure towards the japanese and their culture.
‘koreans look down on the chinese because they can’t afford plastic surgery.’ dinkus maximus
an outright lie. the above is actually the thoughts of the poster who, btw, thinks he’s doing a good job of hiding his disdain for koreans. nice try.
* back in the 80′s, chinese characters were ususally used for headlines as well as the masthead. i curse the people of korea for riding themsleves of hanmun!
I don’t like Chinese food either because it’s oily too. So what? I have to like Chinese food?
As for Koreans having stereotypes of Chinese as dirty and filthy.. yes it is a generalization and stereotype but it’s also based on some truth. Waygooks in Korea hold similar stereotypes against Koreans too, it’s a constant theme that’s written about Korea – so don’t be so hypocritical.
For some reason we got away from the topic. The topic is why are Chinese being irrational about the South Gate burning down. When you read some of their anti-Korean stuff, you’d understand the psychology underneath it. It’s because Koreans changed the name of the capital from the Chinese name of “Han-cheng” to “Seoul” in 2004, disturbing the Feng Shui and insulting the ghosts of Chinese spirits who are punishing these insolent Gaoli bbang-ze.
“they spit on it because they are insecure in the same way koreans are insecure towards the japanese and their culture.”
You are wrong there, bucko. How dare you say such blasphemy? May the thousand Chinese spirits of our ancestors strike you down. We hate you because you guys don’t watch our Chinese made dramas. We hate you because you fooled us with your K-dramas, life in Korea is nothing like the lies you’ve portrayed in your dramas. How many of you can actually afford a car? Not many. Liars!
China will never surpass the U.S. as long as they remain a non-market economy. The Chinese are a G-d-less bunch of opportunists who’s religion is the quickest buck. The economic revolution will decide her outcome. I have to go there next Tuesday and I dread the thought of dealing with the grey coat cadre.
i have lived for long periods of time in both korea and china. and it is true – chinese generally do not have the same level of hygene as koreans. i have often been smitten by a chinese girl who captures my eye until i notice a minor detail that bothers me – dandruff, hair where it shouldn’t be, eating habits etc.
generally, i don’t think the chinese have nearly as many complexes as koreans, and generally i think they tolerate koreans more readily than they do the japanese.
overall, chinese people are much more open to foreigners, and for this reason i chose to live in china and continue to live here. my guanxi and number of friendships with chinese people is much more fruitful than it was in korea with koreans. heck…i even have male friends here who don’t give a rat’s ass if i steal their women.
119: I more or less have had a similar experience, though I found that once I married the girl, I noticed a dramatic increase in Korean male friends. I think that it’s not about “stealing” their women, but that there’s this stereotype that Western guys don’t tend to be committed in a long term relationship; just sex and off they go regardless of any offspring.
Lol… the thread got a lot messier than I had imagined. The fact that there’s both ‘cm’ and ‘cmm’ does not alleviate the confusion (just kidding…).
Disagreeing and ‘battling it out’ are two very different things. Latter implies that I have called… let’s say Sperwer an ‘insecure whitie who can’t get laid in Korea’ or something (Sperwer, I don’t think that and I don’t even know if you’re white). Criticizing someone for disagreeing with opinions is quite ridiculous – why even have discussions then?
“Not sure about the anti-expat commentators, though.”
That sentence right there sums up your logical flaw. You assume that people who disagree with the ‘ExpatTM’ on some issues somehow formed a collective mindset (‘gyopoTM’ ‘anti-expat’ w/e) on everything. Why are you so fixated on categorizing everyone?
“and you’re right; i do tend to stereotype the expat. that’s my intention. as for you insults: yawn.”
Sorry if it came out that way (insults wise), but I do think you overgeneralize the expat community the same way some people here overgeneralize Koreans. -1 + -1 does not equal 0… it’s -2.
As a resident of Southern California, I get exposure to many different types of Chinese. The stereotype of the “dirty” Chinese is actually shared by other, more westernized Chinese. I had this one friend who’s family was originally from Dong Bei, but he himself was born in Taiwan and came to the states at about 10 years old he was like, yeah last night I kissed a girl straight from Bejing… I hope I don’t get those stupid Mainlander germs!
It’s really interesting how the jealousy, inferiority complex, grudge, etc. that describes China’s image and relationship to Korea can be applied word for word to Korea’s relationship to Japan. But what’s the most striking part is so many Koreans fail to see and are clueless about this this.
BTW, the stereotype that Chinese food in general is “oily” is a load of BS. What’s interesting is that this stereotype came about because the imported versions of Chinese food into countries like Korea (jjajangmyun, kkampongi, etc.) and the west (sweet sour pork, chow mein, etc.) are very oily becuase those people changed the original version of Chinese food to fit their own tastes. Thus, if anything, non-Chinese people saying Chinese food is oily don’t realize that they are actually criticizing their own countrymen who enjoy oily food. So much of Chinese cuisine does not contain oil and is cooked using steaming, boiling, or actually even raw.
“It’s really interesting how the jealousy, inferiority complex, grudge, etc. that describes China’s image and relationship to Korea can be applied word for word to Korea’s relationship to Japan. But what’s the most striking part is so many Koreans fail to see and are clueless about this this.”
I was thinking the same thing.
It’s really interesting how the jealousy, inferiority complex, grudge, etc. that describes China’s image and relationship to Korea can be applied word for word to Korea’s relationship to Japan. But what’s the most striking part is so many Koreans fail to see and are clueless about this this.
OK…true, true…I don’t doubt this at all.
I’m still waiting to see if all this nationalistic driven jealousy, inferiority complexes, grudges, etc eventually leads to something like…oh, I don’t know…something like a couple of world wars and a cold one, perhaps?
well i donno, we koreans say lot of shit about chinese very passively in everyday life.
do these chinese citizens know that we regard them like dirt? both in mainstream media and society? i wonder how they feel about watching korean drama and music now.
Jawohl Obergruppenfuhrer Korean-
Canadianof the 51st Vankerjager!*clicks his heels together*
chiang wei kuo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Wei-kuo
Jing, that seems to be a reference to your fellow country man,
I dare you to find a Korean one.
By the way, can you expand upon this
“Island Chain”
that Chinese nationals like to harp about,
claiming that Phillipines, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan are blocking China’s “influence” towards the Pacific?
You mean, just like in North Korea, Sudan, and Burma, right?
EXCELLENT !
by the way, stop stealing US military secrets.
every 3 months, we are hearing of you guys getting busted.
we yellow skins in the US, don’t want a re-birth of internment camps.
So, please stop. Isn’t a nuke enough?
make your own war bird. Stop copying.
island chain,
chicken’s beak,
seriously though, doesn’t Joong Guk, mean, literally,
Center of the World?
WJK, seriously now.
What the hell is all this dribble? Are you trying to rap in haiku or something here? Make some goddamn sense already!
Literate in both Korean and Chinese characters? How did you achieve such a high level of literacy in Korean?
That’s what I don’t like about you bum. Just because I put foward some theories that you don’t agree with, you assume that I am some sort of troll who “categorizes” people, among other things. FYI I was not trying to “categorize” people with that remark. And I find it ironic, that you are commenting regularly against generalization, but you seem to “categorize” me without hesitation just because of those two theories that you did not agree with.
Now let me ask you a question. Why are YOU so fixated about generalizations?
#129 – Although you could interpret it as “center of the world”, 중국 actually means “middle kingdom”. Also, Chu-goku (Japanese) and Zhong-guo (Chinese). Which is why China is many times referred to as the Middle Kingdom in Western textbooks.
That was a stupid comment on my part. I should have elaborated.
“Middle Kingdom” means a central kingdom, but not necessarily the center of the world, although many Chinese may think this. Many think, when they hear “Middle Kingdom”, that it is simply a Sinocentric view of things. Which, I guess, makes 중국mean “Center of the World”…
Okay, that was stupid.
I’m with dinkus maximus there, have had the impression for decades that Chinese generally do not have superior/inferior complexes as much as Koreans or Japanese so strongly do, are more racially and ideologically tolerant and much more open to foreigners, more functional in “global society”. They’re “continental” and have always been multi-ethnic after all, thus more sophisticated, as opposed to our insular island/penninsula friends.
Tho their young generation is now in a strong rising / nationalistic phase, government-fed, and that drives the ugly behavior we’ve recently seen.
All this talk of poor hygene and other supposed Chinese inferiority is just people (incl some Koreans) blinded by the short-term perspective, only seeing the China that is now recovering from the very worst 200-year stretch in its long history, worse even than the 250-588 CE period. It did stumble very badly into weakness in the 1800s and took some very wrong roads into modernization in the 1900s — but it would be a huge narrow-minded mistake to think that this recent disaster-period is “the real China”. It was the greatest civilization on earth seven distinct previous times by my count, and there is some chance that the eighth has alredy barely begun (tho serious problems remain & loom).
You disdain 20% of the human race at your own foolish peril, ‘korean-canadian’ — your comments above are racist drivel and sheer ignorance. Remedial study is all that can be advised — looking over the monumental “Science and Civilisation in China” works of Joseph Needham would be a good start, to see how far ahead of the Europeans they always were, up until 1800.
(and Koreans were their partners in many technical and social advances; no small thing).
“Is it me or has bum implicitly stated that he wants nothing to do with pawi? This from a guy who once defended pawi in public.”
“Actually I didn’t care much about the kyopo commentators here either. I mean if they wanted to battle it out with the expats, well it’s their choice.”
“…Not sure about the anti-expat commentators, though.”
Just in this thread, you’ve implied three times that there were some sort of sides existing between ‘gyopos’ and ‘expats’. Your words, not mine.
“but you seem to “categorize” me without hesitation just because of those two theories that you did not agree with.”
Lol… I categorized you? Yes, I so categorized you when I have said (in the past and in this thread) that you
1) do shallow research and arrive at false conclusions hastily
2) fail to admit mistakes/accept criticisms even when facts are staring you in the eyes
3) fixated on the idea that gyopos are all on the same ‘team’.
… what category is that? It’s not Korean TM, GyopoTM, or ExpatTM… I guess we’ll call that MinsTM. Or maybe it’s not called categorizing. Maybe statements like that are called criticisms.
bumfromkorea”"Yes. Thank you so much for reminding me of how my genetic dispositions make me think…Classic racism…”
Classic racial inferiority complex, you mean. The general dislike of Koreans has nothing to do with racism at all, expecially when you consider that these feelings do not generalize to other Asian nationalities. Wake up, stop whining and accept yourself as deserving of no special treatment or consideration just because of your nationality. Race baiting is the last refuge of a scoundral.
OK fair enough bum. I should have put the word “some”, since it would have in avoided generalization.
As for criticism, there is nothing wrong with that. But when you criticize I have noticed that your form of criticism is something that well….I don’t know…. so I’ll leave it at that.
Now let me make my position clear. Now I’ll put forward what I feel about a certain subject/issue. IT’s not a conclusion, and doesn’t involve research, because I’m not doing a thesis or something like that. Now my mistake is that I didn’t say it was “personal” that I’ll admit to. But if a person gets criticized because he feels something about an issue, and when he tries to explain that and the other side doesn’t look like he’s listening a guy can get a bit pissed off.
I don’t want to fight with you, and I’m sorry for the things I have said. So let’s call it a day, and make peace.
That is assuming that you are willing to accept the peace offer?
@#138
We are, as people say, cool. Looks like there’s a new challenger though (lol). Speaking of which…
@#137
“The general dislike of Koreans has nothing to do with racism at all, expecially when you consider that these feelings do not generalize to other Asian nationalities.”
Lol… a general dislike of [race/nationalities] is not racist? That’s a funny notion, especially when the quote is
“Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals. All Chinese are 3rd world, dirty, smelly people to Koreans. If Koreans don’t like it, them should shut the fuck up about others.”
“accept yourself as deserving of no special treatment or consideration just because of your nationality.”
Right. ‘Please don’t generalize me’ is wanting a special treatment or consideration just because of my nationality. I guess the entirety of civil rights movement and anti-racism movements of the past half century was a big clusterf@ck of whining.
Sanshinseon, you cannot take Korean-American too seriously. He is essentially Nulji 2.0 (God I’ve been reading this blog for too long), an insecure ethnic Korean chauvinist who goes batshit crazy at the besmirchment of the Motherland. You should read up on what Benedict Anderson has to say about diaspora nationalism and romantacist attachements to the old country as a form of socialization.
If I recall correctly, Nulji changed his screen name from Shin Jong Il to Nulji Maripkan because of a similar topic (internet yahoo catfight), in effect de-sinicizing his Korean name into something more “authentically” Korean in solidarity with this Korean comrades. In fact, I think Pawi is just his latest screen name but I can’t be certain (someone back me up on this?)
Hey guys,
I think I learned quite alot in this thread. Let me see, as a summary,
- Mins and Bum are public enemy #1 to each other.
- WJK seems to write in haiku or like ee cummings. Maybe ADD?
- Mizar5 doesn’t think too highly of the Korean people.
- Pawigirogi seems to be disliked by pretty much everyone.
- Korean Canadian seems to hate and look down upon Chinese people.
- Mins and Bum enjoy getting on each others nerves.
- Pawi = Nulji = Shin Jong Il
Am I missing anything? I am a newcomer here but I really want to get the background to enjoy the circus show here. It’s awesome!
BTW, can anyone tell me the meaning of the word “Pawikirogi” and “Nulji”?
I learned that all east asian countries are going to go to war according to the prophet Baduk. Oh yeah, I learned that Baduk is now a prophet.
On another thread I learned that entrepreneur doesn’t mean what I thought it meant. This is a regular font of information.
Oh young Padawan, google is your friend.
Ironically enough, if you search for Nulji Maripkan, the first few links are to Hole.
@#144
Nah, we made up.
‘Pawigirogi seems to be disliked by pretty much everyone.’
yes, that’s true but the operative word in your sentence is ‘seems’. quite a few people who visit this board actually love pawi but just won’t admit it. in other words, they LOVE to hate me. every place needs a villain though in this case, the villain is acutally the good guy. ain’t that right, slim? btw, i’ve been here almost 3 years now and so have most of the others who post on a regular basis.
‘the history of pawi/nulji/shin..’
when i first visited this site, i chose the name shin jong il. why? because i was reading about the manchus at the time, and ‘shin jong il’ was a korean diplomat who actaully spent some time with nurhachi himself. i changed that sinic sounding name when china tried to claim koguryeo. i changed THAT name because it bored me. that was about a year ago. i’ve been ‘pawi’ ever since.
pawi = stone kirogi = goose (shut up, dogbert!)
nulji maripkan = an ancient korean king from either shinla or baekche, i can’t remember.
‘the background to enjoy the circus show here. It’s awesome!’ bbundaegi
why do you think this place is ‘awesome’?
Thanks for the explanation pawi. Maybe “awesome” is not the righth word. “Hilarious” is probably more accurate.
Oh, I forgot to ask…what language is “pawi” and “kirogi”? Is that an old form of Korean?
Next time fear-mongers and declinists threaten a united Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, I shall point them to this.
every place needs a villain though in this case, the villain is acutally the good guy. ain’t that right, slim?
I was hoping for excommunication and retain that hope.
In accordance with Hindu philosophy, the villain is only reprising the role to ensure the enjoyment of the theatre patrons. After the act, of course, everyone gets together over a vat of alcoholic butter milk and dances hand-in-hand around a firepit singing “We Are The World”.
‘I was hoping for excommunication and retain that hope.’ slim
lol, slim! you and lawyer will never be excommunicated.
Re #143 Jing:
You’re probably quite correct; thanks.
I don’t have a dog in this fight.
Of course not.
Also, in the interest of fairness, since I noted awhile back that many Korean commenters on the internets seemed to chose what they probably thought were stereotypically WASPish names, I also wonder why so many posters who are not Korean choose names of Korean victuals, such as “bbundaegi”, “boshintang”, “maekchu”, and variations on “kimchi”?
What’s wrong with you?
really? how many of you have gotten hepatitis and tuberculosis in korea? not a single one.
jing, i’m insecure? on the contrary, my dear friend. it’s you and your people who are insecure. good to see that such a big country like china go ape shit over a medium sized country like korea.
btw, the gate was unimpressive? maybe so but it sure was easy to look at. do a google of chinese gates and ask yourself if most of them aren’t props for the circus.
koreans did your culture better. even the japanese* knew this.
*japanese art is just the best.
That’s a huge assumption that you are foolish to make. That said, it is a truism that poor hygiene + food preparation = hepatitis. This is the same in the U.S. as in Korea as in wherever.
Tuberculosis is endemic in Korea, a fact recognized by the U.S. government and Korea itself.
Medium sized? Not according to some Chinese netizens. (Yes, I can read the characters, too, so I know the map is not recent.) Some Chinese netizens would like to see Korea shrink even more. The characters are a little small. The Korean peninsula is identified as Chosun Autonomous Prefecture.
Hmmm, the links didn’t work. I’ll try again:
http://upload.mop.com/user/2006/01/23/11/1138029211872.jpg
http://melslmx.googlepages.com/chinaditu.jpg
“Lol… a general dislike of [race/nationalities] is not racist? That’s a funny notion”
It might be to you, but to the purveyer of objective cultural criticism, the racist strawman argument is an all too transparent expression of denial that results from an intense sense of national inferiority.
“I guess the entirety of civil rights movement and anti-racism movements of the past half century was a big clusterf@ck of whining.”
Wrong again. It’s an expression of the deeply felt American commitment to the American ideal of racial justice, which is deeply admirable and worthy of emulation.
“the purveyer of objective cultural criticism”
So you claim you have achieved objectiveness in cultural criticism that even the most accomplished scholars have admitted to have not overcome. Quite an ego you have there, Professor Mizar5.
“transparent expression of denial that results from an intense sense of national inferiority”
Lol… who’s strawmaning who? I was criticizing Aussiethunder’s comment: “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” Sounds like a gross overgeneralization to me.
“It’s an expression of the deeply felt American commitment to the American ideal of racial justice, which is deeply admirable and worthy of emulation.”
Yes, let us celebrate it by saying stupid shit like “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” And calling criticisms against it “whining”.
“So you claim you have achieved objectiveness in cultural criticism that even the most accomplished scholars have admitted to have not overcome. Quite an ego you have there, Professor Mizar5.”
The ego lies in claiming that we, as Koreans, are somehow eyond criticism and anyone who would dare critique us is some kind of human rights criminal. And to respond by name-calling is hardly an appropriate response.
“transparent expression of denial that results from an intense sense of national inferiority”
“Lol… who’s strawmaning who?”
The stawman argument is characterizing those who criticise undesirable Korean cultural characteristics as racists.
“I was criticizing Aussiethunder’s comment: “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” Sounds like a gross overgeneralization to me.”
A generalization, certainly, but one about our culture and almost just as certainly not racism. As someone of Korean background myself, I accept the element of truth in such an argument. Have you ever considered the double standard inherent in us promoting favorable generalizations about ourselves (such as “we Koreans are smart and dynamic”) while we resort to name-calling in response to a bit of generall cultural criticism?
“Yes, let us celebrate it by saying stupid shit like “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” And calling criticisms against it “whining”.”
The racist strawman argument certainly is whining. To paraphrase, how misunderstood and oppressed we are. How dare you criticise my culture. It’s you, not me. You see, I’m perfect; you’re racist.”
If you truly believe the statement is false, then critique it on its merits as an argument. Deconstruct it, offer specific arguments to refute its validity.
For example, you might concede that there is certainly a strong ethnocentric tendency in Korean culture but then provide various examples that we are becoming increasingly sensitive to the issue and cite some of the measures we are taking to overcome it.
But don’t throw around strawman ad hominem swearwords like “racist.” And do not pout and act petulant. That just demeans you and undermines your argument, and it’s embarrassing.
“Koreans, are somehow eyond criticism and anyone who would dare critique us is some kind of human rights criminal. ”
Stop right there. Once again, you’re strawmaning by insisting that this is my position. Not quite.
“A generalization, certainly, but one about our culture and almost just as certainly not racism. As someone of Korean background myself, I accept the element of truth in such an argument.”
First, the term ‘Koreans’ is not cultural – the term is talking about actual people of Korean descent. If the sentence was talking about ‘Korean culture’, then I would have said that was a generalization and not racism, but the sentence in question is actually talking about people (which includes me, my family, some of my friends, relatives, and people I know).
Accepting the elements of truth in a statement is not the same thing as accepting the statement. I’m arguing against the latter, and somehow you seem to think I’m arguing against the former. Interesting…
“Have you ever considered the double standard inherent in us promoting favorable generalizations about ourselves (such as “we Koreans are smart and dynamic”) while we resort to name-calling in response to a bit of generall cultural criticism?”
You are certainly on the roll with strawmaning. Already you assume that I promote and/or advocate the ‘favorable’ generalization of Koreans being smart and dynamic (see Better Luck Tomorrow), and then you continue on to attack me on my imagined position you created for me.
“How dare you criticise my culture. It’s you, not me. You see, I’m perfect; you’re racist.””
Yawn, strawman for the same reason as above.
“If you truly believe the statement is false, then critique it on its merits as an argument. Deconstruct it, offer specific arguments to refute its validity.
…
But don’t throw around strawman ad hominem swearwords like “racist.” And do not pout and act petulant. That just demeans you and undermines your argument, and it’s embarrassing.”
I’ll just repeat what I’ve already said in the comments above. The statement “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” is racist, not because it’s a critique against Korean culture or society , but because it seeks to overgeneralize a group of people (i.e. Koreans at large) into a characteristic (hates non-Koreans).
You really gotta stop assuming every person with Korean heritage turns crazy/irrational when they assume their online identity. It’s really, REALLY annoying.
mizar5, you know your discussion points would be a heck of a lot more convincing if you weren’t always pushing some fact about your supposed personal self as if it was needed to justify your comments (you make some good points, and that is justification itself).
The whole we this we that, I’m Korean, worked at Samsung, really makes the tone of your argument sound awkward and immature, as if your trying too hard to bait an image, even if there is truth to it. Not something a rational speaker would do, and yet, I mention this because at times and certain topics you are just that.
Anyway, it’s disappointing to hear such a polarized view on a people, and hopefully it is just limited to Koreans. I’m curious though, not as a way to shun away or anything though (I have enjoyed some of your previous postings), as to why you involve yourself in these discussions if you have such a hardened negative view? (One would think that if you’d physically want to keep yourself away from Koreans, you’d mentally want to be away from involved topics as well)
“Not something a rational speaker would do, and yet, I mention this because at times and certain topics you are just that.”
Perhaps it may help to think of this Mizar as a Vulcan, that analytical, logical mind dedicated to objectivity as a means of overcoming an unfortunate history of irrationality. You may argue that I’m tilting at windmills, much as Richard Dawkins does when he exposes the stupidity of the superstition that we refer to as religion, but there is too much importance in the points he makes to do otherwise.
“I’m curious though…as to why you involve yourself in these discussions if you have such a hardened negative view?”
Perhaps the “hardened negative view” you impute to mes is simply a dedication to truth, exoressed as refutation of the illogic of narrow, unthinking minds.
“I’ll just repeat what I’ve already said in the comments above. The statement “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” is racist, not because it’s a critique against Korean culture or society , but because it seeks to overgeneralize a group of people (i.e. Koreans at large) into a characteristic (hates non-Koreans).”
Repeating an assertion does not constitute evidential proof. You have merely compounded the error, and in so doing, left the assumption unexamined, which is unfortunate for you in terms of personal awareness.
Substitute the phrase “people inclucated in Korean culture” for Koreans, and the flaw in your syllogism becomes immediately obvious.
“Repeating an assertion does not constitute evidential proof. You have merely compounded the error, and in so doing, left the assumption unexamined, which is unfortunate for you in terms of personal awareness.”
Yeah, because the word “because” in my summarizing sentence doesn’t mean I’m explaining my reasonings, right? And it’s not like you’ve made any arguments against it; you just keep strawmaning without actually addressing the point.
“Substitute the phrase “people inclucated in Korean culture” for Koreans, and the flaw in your syllogism becomes immediately obvious.”
“Koreans” and “Korean culture” are two very, very separate things. For one, the term culture is so nebulous that it is laughable for you to substitute it for the concrete term “Koreans”. It’s quite hilarious of you to assume that such distinction is syllogism.
Look at the sentence in question. “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” I’m a Korean, and according to Aussiethunder and to an extent, you, I hate everyone except Korean nationals. Is that an accurate statement? Is that a fair statement?
Of course not. My characteristics have already been determined by this sentence simply based on race (Korean). But you’re right. Assigning characteristics on people based on race is so not racist. That’s just, uh, ‘valid cultural critique’.
“mizar5, you know your discussion points would be a heck of a lot more convincing if you weren’t always pushing some fact about your supposed personal self as if it was needed to justify your comments (you make some good points, and that is justification itself).”
This is because you are logical and unbiased, and these traits are rare in a society that expects one to pay homage to what Chomsky refers to as the mindlessly parroted conventional pieties.
For example, why is it those great atheists who founded America – Paine, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, et al expressed themselves as deists rather than atheists, much as they eschewed the construct of a personal god? Why is it politicians on both the left and right need to pretend to be men of faith to be the least bit electable? When you critique what people hold dear and do not question, you must preface your argument with the qualifier “I understand and respect your right to believe as you do, but….”
I don’t blame people for being socially programmed, but I do question the unexamined assumptions that color their perception of reality.
In any society, there are root assumptions that need challanging. America needs this, and so does Korea. It’s easy to dismiss my observations as “negative views”, and this is understandable because it’s painful to reexamine ilogical assumptions. But if you examine brutal truths, you will begin to see that they encourage self examination, and thereby offer the way to solutions. But this way cannot be dictated by others because they depend on awareness and consequent commitment to action. Thus the need for Mizar5s in society.
“The ego lies in claiming that we, as Koreans, are somehow eyond criticism and anyone who would dare critique us is some kind of human rights criminal.”
This is the inherent flaw with your critique.
1. You are assuming that I would denounce any and all criticisms against anything Korean related. Not only is this ad hominem (how does what I feel about other issues relevant in this particular discussion?) and a false one at that (since I don’t even fall into the Angry KoreanTM mold you’re so hellbent in trying to have me in), it’s also a false causality (how can my opinion on one issue reflect the widely varying stances that I may or may not take?)
2. By ignoring my argument that you yourself cannot possibly achieve something called “objective cultural criticism”, you are sidestepping an important issue: no one can ever be ‘objective’ when it comes to cultural criticism. There’s always a neverending tug-of-war between ethnocentrism and cultural relativism.
“Look at the sentence in question. “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.” I’m a Korean, and according to Aussiethunder and to an extent, you, I hate everyone except Korean nationals. Is that an accurate statement? Is that a fair statement?”
Only you can answer that question, which is your rhetorical response to a rhetorical statement.
More than taking a position with regard to Aussie’s statement, I’m faulting your response – which is to look for racists under the bed. Obviously, not all Koreans hate non Koreans. Presumably the two of us do not. Aussie’s statement was what we call a hasty generalization and thus flawed if taken as a literal representation.
But why take it as a literal representation rather than a rhetorical device, a rib at some of the general tendencies of Korean society in the spirit of, say, Johnathan Swift? Why simply impute racism to the statement?
I point this out because I’ve seen this sort of overreaction become habitual in many Koreans. Others, however, manage to laugh in a self-depreciating way, and this is a strength. Jews are a great example of this. They have actually faced prejudice in ways that Koreans cannot imagine, and yet they still manage to remain dignified and maintain a sense of humor.
My point is there are positive ways to deal with things and negative ways. Blaming others for pointing out our foibles as a society is in fact part of the problem that perpetrates some core problems in Korean society.
Finally, let me reiterate that the racist argument no longer works. Too many people see through it now. They know better. It’s unseemly.
“This is the inherent flaw with your critique. 1. You are assuming that I would denounce any and all criticisms against anything Korean related.”
Am I? Did I state this about you specifically, or did I pose this as a general cultural critique and even include myself in the criticism? Please reread.
“2. By ignoring my argument that you yourself cannot possibly achieve something called “objective cultural criticism”, you are sidestepping an important issue: no one can ever be ‘objective’ when it comes to cultural criticism. There’s always a neverending tug-of-war between ethnocentrism and cultural relativism.”
I ignore the comment simply because it is irrelevent, ie. a “strawman.” No one has claimed omnicience, and nor is the ideal of complete objectivity required in order to offer an educated observation. If that were the case, no claims could be offered on any subject whatsoever.
“But why take it as a literal representation rather than a rhetorical device, a rib at some of the general tendencies of Korean society in the spirit of, say, Johnathan Swift?”
1. I highly doubt Aussiethunder was channeling the spirit of Johnathan Swift (or his equivalence) when he wrote that comment.
2. Reverse can be asked. Why take it as rhetorical rather than literal? You once again take the assumption towards rhetorical with the preset mind that I am some crazy, whacked out Angry KoreanTM.
3. Regardless of rhetorical/literal, to claim immaturity/overreaction on the part that denounces a statement that blatantly overgeneralizes a group of people based on race is to justify expressing statements that characterizes people based on race.
“Blaming others for pointing out our foibles as a society is in fact part of the problem that perpetrates some core problems in Korean society.”
Way to put words into my mouth. Isn’t it so much easier to make arguments when you can decide what you’re critiquing with no regards to what has been actually said?
“More than taking a position with regard to Aussie’s statement, I’m faulting your response – which is to look for racists under the bed.”
Lol… Do you know what you just said? ‘Forget about what you were actually talking about in the first place – let me reformat your arguments so that I can make arguments against it.’ Great idea. Let’s take everything out of context. That’ll lead to accurate assessment of the issue.
“Finally, let me reiterate that the racist argument no longer works. Too many people see through it now. They know better. It’s unseemly.”
1. Yeah. You and…. oh.
2. Your assumption towards the rhetorics (i.e. interpretation) rather than literal (i.e. actual), once again, is the flaw in your thought process.
3. “Obviously, not all Koreans hate non Koreans.” And yet, here you are, defending the statement “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.”
“No one has claimed omnicience”
I’m going to go ahead and let your comment answer this one.
“It might be to you, but to the purveyer of objective cultural criticism, the racist strawman argument is an all too transparent expression of denial that results from an intense sense of national inferiority.”
So who’s the “purveyer of objective cultural criticism”? Aussiethunder? The invisible, inaudible one who hasn’t been arguing against the racist nature of his/her comment? Me? I guess that leaves only one person when it comes to who you’re talking about…
“nor is the ideal of complete objectivity required in order to offer an educated observation”
And yet you have been constantly accusing me of being dangerously subjective towards the Korean side. Nice.
“Am I? Did I state this about you specifically, or did I pose this as a general cultural critique and even include myself in the criticism? Please reread.”
Lol… so you don’t deny that you assumed that I am included in the “Blame everyone but Koreans” mentality. Nice. Making the claim general doesn’t help you, since your claims on the mentality was part of your argument against my claim of racism in Aussiethunder’s comment.
1. I highly doubt Aussiethunder was channeling the spirit of Johnathan Swift (or his equivalence) when he wrote that comment.
You may well doubt it. You may well continue to ascribe to someone’s statements the basest motives without bothering to produce a single piece of contravening evidence or a logical argument to support such accusations. You must do so, however, at the risk of encountering an incredulous reaction.
“2. Reverse can be asked. Why take it as rhetorical rather than literal?”
Because it falls to the accuser to justify the accusation. And so far, your sole argument has been that you doubt it. The point you need to make to prove an accusation is not whether you doubt, but whether there is merit in your doubt to the extent that others should join you in your doubt.
“You once again take the assumption towards rhetorical with the preset mind that I am some crazy, whacked out Angry KoreanTM.”
Embedded in this argument is the smug assumption that you know my mind. Is the justification for your argument then ommicience?
“3. Regardless of rhetorical/literal, to claim immaturity/overreaction on the part that denounces a statement that blatantly overgeneralizes a group of people based on race…”
“Based on race”, you state. But can you document a single reference to race? If you can point to such a statement, you will have proven your argument. Otherwise, the base motives you ascribe remain unsupported.
“ ‘Blaming others for pointing out our foibles as a society is in fact part of the problem that perpetrates some core problems in Korean society.’ ”
“Way to put words into my mouth. Isn’t it so much easier to make arguments when you can decide what you’re critiquing with no regards to what has been actually said?”
This is not so easy for a logically rigorous debator, which I am encouraging you to be.
When Aussie pointed out one of the foibles of Korean society, you reacted by labling him a racist. You did so without first bothering to ascertain his motives for doing so. You never asked for clarification. You simply portrayed him as racist or, as you phrase it “put words into his mouth.”
“More than taking a position with regard to Aussie’s statement, I’m faulting your response – which is to look for racists under the bed.”
“Lol… Do you know what you just said? ‘Forget about what you were actually talking about in the first place – let me reformat your arguments so that I can make arguments against it.’ Great idea. Let’s take everything out of context. That’ll lead to accurate assessment of the issue.”
Your reading comprehension difficulties notwithstanding, you alone are the one making accusations of racism here, and without support for the argument. Slander is serious business and can get you into trouble. This is why I am encouraging you to think and to express yourself with more logical rigor.
“ ‘Finally, let me reiterate that the racist argument no longer works. Too many people see through it now. They know better. It’s unseemly.’
1. Yeah. You and…. oh.”
Sorry, I cannot parse the argument here.
“2. Your assumption towards the rhetorics (i.e. interpretation) rather than literal (i.e. actual), once again, is the flaw in your thought process.”
That is precisely what I have challenged you not to do. But rather than accept my advice, you deflect the critique onto me, thereby proving my argument that blaming others for pointing out our foibles as a society is in fact part of the problem that perpetrates some core problems in Korean society.
You have persisted in accusations which you fail to even attempt to present proofs for.
3. “Obviously, not all Koreans hate non Koreans.” And yet, here you are, defending the statement “Koreans hate everyone except Korean nationals.”
“I’m defending nothing. I have no bone to pick, no position to defend. I’m merely holding you to the defense of your own arguments, a standard of intellectual honesty which you repeatedly refuse to engage in.
I do so because I enjoy the opportunity to assist you in developing your skills as a thinker and writer. And I also do so as a pure exercse in logic to while away a moment of boredom. Naturally, I would far more enjoy an honest debate with a worthy adversary or else with someone who has a sufficient attention span to properly read what is being asserted and to respond to it in a logical manner.
Nonetheless, thank you for engaging me in a bit of banter. It was a fun.
Right.
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