Or so it would seem with the recent resignation of the head of Kia’s US operations, Len Hunt, and marketing director Ian Beavis:
Revolving doors
Hunt replaced Peter Butterfield, who left in October 2005. Three months later, Bob Cosmai, the CEO of Hyundai Motor America, was out. He was replaced by Steve Wilhite, a former Nissan Motor Co. marketing manager, whose tenure at Hyundai lasted 13 months.
Hunt is being replaced by Byung Mo Ahn, a longtime company veteran who was CEO of Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia, in an apparently makeshift solution.
That kind of management churn can’t be good for the South Korean automaker — or any company.
According to Advertising Age, the departure was thanks to the US operation’s latest ad campaign, the humor of which apparently didn’t go over very well with one Korean executive:
But Byung Mo Ahn was not amused. The South Korea-born executive, who returned to Kia’s Irvine, Calif., headquarters nine days ago in the newly created position of chairman and group CEO of Kia Motors America and Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia (the automotive plant currently under construction in West Point, Ga.), doesn’t like the current brand of humor in Kia’s ads, according to executives close to the matter. One of those executives said Mr. Ahn prefers to show the cars and trucks as serious contenders with good quality.
Just five days into Mr. Ahn’s return to the U.S., Len Hunt, who arrived from Volkswagen of America in fall 2005 as exec VP-chief operating officer and promoted last November to president, and Ian Beavis, VP-marketing overseeing advertising, product planning and public relations since May 2005, suddenly left Kia. Neither man could be reached for comment.
This reportedly hasn’t made Kia dealers in the US very happy:
Kia dealers were upset by the departure of the two executives. Michael Crawford, a major dealer in Arizona, said if another carmaker hired Len Hunt, he would sign up for that franchise. “That’s how much I believe in him.” Another dealer, upset over the turnover of non-Korean executives, said, “I am just so tired of the drama.”
Over at Businessweek’s AutoBeat blog, David Kiley writes that Kia’s management has some serious, serious issues:
If I’m one of the Big Three automaker, or one of the leading Japanese auto companies, I’m showing very limited fear of Koreans Hyundai and Kia.
Kia’s Korean management over the weekend appaarently threw some kind of a hissy fit, resulting in the ouster of CEO Len Hunt and marketing chief Ian Beavis. That shake-up came two months after Hunt was elevated to CEO from COO. Hyundai last year, of course, parted ways with its COO, Steve Wilhite, after less than a year on the job. The COO before that was axed shortly after promotion, as well.
Hunt’s and Beavis’s “resignations” were announced at the annual meeting of the National Automobile Dealers Association. Hunt replaced Peter Butterfield, who was fired as CEO of Kia Motors America at a dealer meeting in October 2005.
Talk to most Americans during informal off-the-record moments who have worked for the two Korean car companies and you get a picture of management that is at worst, crazy, and at best, impatient to the point of screwing up any continuity of management.
Keep in mind, these “resignations” come after Kia sales posted 3.8% growth. In a tough year.
Kiley didn’t mince words:
We frequently hear ambitious sales targets for Hyundai and Kia. I suspect they won’t reach them in the U.S. until Korean managers grow up and put stability ahead of ego and a headstrong and dictatorial culture.
Ouch.
(HT to reader)
93 Comments
Great post!
I have a friend in Canada who was hired to do an ad for Hyundai. The work ended up costing a few hundred grand and to quote my friend “change after change after change after change”. When execs in Korea saw it, they axed the entire campaign. He also did a job for Samsung, to which he said much of the same shit happened. He’s since added “Korean companies” to his list of contracts he refuses, the first two being cigarettes and anything related to baby products.
Let’s hope these guys put healthy severance packages in their contracts.
Yeah, good luck with that. (I still think they’ll eventually reach sales targets, if they have good cars to sell.)
The “revolving door” method of handling U.S. executives by Hyundai-Kia has been an issue that keeps popping up in U.S. business publications. If H-K keeps this up, wonder how long it will be before it appears in a list of companies that non-Korean executive candidates should avoid? Because if that happens it would be a loss for H-K in regards to its marketing efforts in the U.S.
Why an american would buy a Kia or Hyundai is beyond me. These same people that protest and shout anti american slogans want americans to buy their cars. Unlike Korea there are plenty of options for people to buy. Perhaps the korean management can not comprehend the idea of competing on quality in an open market. In Korea, they close the market and force you to buy their products, but in the USA people actually have choices and in most peoples perception, Japanese cars are far superior. Outside of those struggling financially, why would anyone buy a korean car. Driving a korean car for most americans represents someone who could not afford a better one.
Robert, this is a very insightful thread and troubling because it tells me that even after the last ten years of Kia going through management problems, successfully solving the quality-control issues that they had in the U.S., regarding after-service, and establishing themselves quite well in the American market, they still have the wrong people in charge of an international organization who just do not “get it”.
I remember that when I once worked on advertising concepts for certain parts of Samsung, I would get some of the most inane and egregious calls in judgment from some manager that was making decisions for an over-seas market. The guy would make decisions based on his own frog-in-a-well taste, which was not appropriate (in my professional opinion).
Also, the idea of selecting advertising concept, using a “team” approach to evaluate such, is counterproductive when applied to working out advertising for a market but this misapplication of method would not occur — due to some Chaebol-style way of working through technical problems. I can say that sometimes I would run into the same problem with some of the larger, bureaucratic clients in the States too.
How about the time when we made a comp presentation for a 4-color print piece and the young, team leader asks me “How is this an improvement over last year’s design?” I had to explain to this rube that it is not about “improvement”. One can improve phones, TVs and cars. Good design is about communication with an audience, thus this illustrated how someone with an engineering background just did not understand what services they were hiring and what the real goal was. We did not get that job either.
What “chiamatt” wrote is pretty much my experiences, regarding certain ways decisions were made, as well. Those jokes about how country-backwards “Hyundai saram” are not just fantasy but have some bone in them.
Just how does one run an international company when their management is still thinking as if they were selling watermelons off the back of a Bongo truck, using a loudspeaker to catch the attention of the local adjumas?!
To defend things…You can argue (in this instance) it was indicative of a disagreement over overall vision. Like the article said, it has more to do with wanting to represent Kia as competitive with other luxury car brands. Don’t interpret this as another anti-foreigner or koreans do things backwards moment…(which always happens on this blog)
Beavis and Butterfield?
How can anyone really judge what’s funny in another country or culture’s humor? How many expats would find Korean comedy shows very funny? Probably not very many. Advertising has to be sensitive to the culture of the target audience, not the producer. Just foolishness from Kia. Koreans view foreign employees as expendable in academia as well - working for a Korean corporation or university has to be considered a pretty risky move.
“Michael Crawford, a major dealer in Arizona, said if another carmaker hired Len Hunt, he would sign up for that franchise.”
So that’s what the Phantom of the Opera is doing these days.
While I’m not saying whether or not ego, headstrong and dictatorial culture don’t exist at some levels above me, I can say this:
I work for the major Korean company (the one with a name that means 3 stars), and I can say that my ideas are respected and given equal consideration (if not more than) as those of my Korean coworkers. The Indian coworker who formerly worked in my group was also given a great level of respect. In my post-doc, I can say the same, except for with one guy. But the guy there who wrote off my ideas was an a-hole who was a dickhead to everyone, and has since found himself in another job.
The complaints that foreigners are ignored in Korean companies may be valid, but in my personal experiences and observations of my foreign coworkers, they aren’t necessarily the norm.
Language barrier is a greater problem, in my opinion/experience.
# 2,
That’s hardly a fair comment. Your friend doesn’t work with Korean companies for the same reasons that he doesn’t work with cigarette or baby product companies. Safety of products are not an issue, degree of difficulty of working with client is, so why associate Korean companies with cancer sticks and (potentially) toxic food?
#10,
I remember reading a while ago an article by AP (I think) that praised Kia’s humorous ad campaign, crediting it for their growing popularity.
All fun aside, this is an issue I’ve noted in my professional career: While there are a lot of law firms eager to get Korean clients, usually these are law firms which haven’t previously worked with Korean clients. Whenever I run into someone overseas who has worked with Korean clients, they usually relate their stories with a lot of eye-rolling exasperation followed by an appeal for help in getting unpaid invoices resolved.
You guys are arguing about someone getting axed over a “Soap on a Rope” joke in a Kia ad? Are you guys saying that “Soap on a Rope” would be a good present? You guys would be happy if I bought you that for Christmas?
To the guy who says that ads are not about “improvement” but about communicating to a target audience, all I have to say is that this is like corn that eats the beef when you are going to Tahita.
“Brian Dean”, you are clueless as well as nonsensical in your commentary.
The comment was to exemplify how the client did not understand the services they were buying in the first place. Applying inappropriate methodology to solving one’s communication needs is like using a hammer and a screwdriver to work on a piece of music — not that they are just the wrong tools for the job but the person that reaches for them does not understand the context of their use, to begin with.
Troubling story. Some people may not agree with me but I’ve stopped buying Korean products whenever possible, especially big ticket items. When a little more fairness, equality, and also quality occur I’ll change my stance. Influencing others with values that you may think are universally appealing just doesn’t work here. I think that’s what makes this place very unique to others around the world, but also extremely frightening
Here’s a link to an article that has a video of the ad.
http://adage.com/article?article_id=125026
It’s obvious that the ad targets the 18 to 25 crowd. Someone really missed the boat if he really did get fired for an ad that does a good job of targeting the age group to which your products appeal the most.
…to which their products…
I like the ad, but sort of had to think about it for a second or two to “get” it. Unheard of people, unheard of prices. It’s not really all that clever to begin with, but I agree with Konglick that it’s likely targeting the right audience.
But for my money, nobody does strange/zany like Bruce Campbell in the Old Spice commercials.
To R. Elgin: In response to your statement, “The comment was to exemplify how the client did not understand the services they were buying in the first place. Applying inappropriate methodology to solving one’s communication needs is like using a hammer and a screwdriver to work on a piece of music”
Your hammer is like kumquats when they pursue the screwdriver in the bar. Melons are like singing rulers when the mops go to town.
I would try to make more sense, except that the problem is since “improvement” has nothing to do with communication, trying to “improve” my hammer comment is useless.
#9 beat me to it
beavis and butterfield….classic
If you watch the car commercials here in Korea you realize they believe the only way to sell cars is to have some snake-like woman whispering huskily a string of sibilant laced words as the car races through turns over a pastoral landscape. It is redundant but sells cars here in Korea where marketing image is all.
The marketing in America will need to appeal to a more pragmatic market where people are, generally speaking, no longer interested in mortgaging their future for a trophy car.
I have a feeling that, once again, Korean management is projecting their narrow tastes, which they believe ring universally, onto a market from a different planet. And more, they believe using humor denegrates their product to something laughable. They are chronically mistaken.
The ad isn’t all that funny. It’s not hard to imagine an auto exec getting worried that a lot of money was being spent on a pretty dumb joke.
Hyundai/Kia’s ads in the U.S. are actually pretty good, and they are usually not at all like the ones you see in Korea. Some of them are funny, some of them are self-deprecating. Some point out how cool their cars are. I get the feeling some of the critics above haven’t actually seen many recent H-D ads. Go here and click on SEE THE LATEST ADS FEATURING JEFF BRIDGES for Hyundai’s.
Here are some Kia ads that didn’t get anyone fired, even though they might not be something the Korean hierarchy would get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs-G4YFdlMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
I’m not just posting links I found on YouTube. These are ads I’ve seen many times on television in the U.S.
If I had any product to sell whatsoever, I would hire Bruce Campbell to promote the crap out of it.
# 12,
I don’t doubt that foreign co-workers coexist well in major companies, but does your experience extend into upper management where different growth and organizational philosophies butt heads with ajushis who rule their respective divisions like fiefdoms?
If you’re looking for car ads that use humor, the VW un-pimp my ride series are good. (You’ll either love them or hate them.)
I’d add a link, but somehow that always gets messed up. So, all I can do is encourage you to search for them on youtube.
#4: That attitude-just make a decent car-might have served Korea, Inc. on the way up, but adding value is the key to solidifying market position and advancing into the Top Three. How many blunders has GM made in its history? What about Nova in Spain? This is not a Korean thing-every multinational company goes through this.
#12: I’d be interested in hearing more from you. You should write the rejoinder to these executives quoted in the article. Yet, how many expat execs are there in ROK?
#24,
So would I, and so would many other people…and that serves to show how badly they really misunderstood North American humor and consumers.
27: Ah, only if Korean screwups were urban legends.
http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp
In my industry in Korea, there’s a good reason why (nearly) all of my Korean colleagues dream of ditching their Korean company and working for a foreign (Western) vendor company : Korean management is oppressive.
So, my bets are on the Kia Korean overlords being a$$holes.
I saw the Kia ad in question on TV here in the US tonight. Pretty much par for the course & fairly effective as humorous ads go.
@26 and 27
as I prefaced my comment, “While I’m not saying whether or not ego, headstrong and dictatorial culture don’t exist at some levels above me.”
I don’t know the exact answer to this. In my subgroup of the chaebol (there are about 30 or so), there aren’t any foreigners that I know of at the executive levels (although I believe that there might be a Japanese person or two who are getting close). My comment about foreigner treatment was based on things at my level–senior researcher of tech stuff, and not intended for any extrapolations.
On Monday, we hosted a North American company. I had a meeting with their CTO and CEO, the latter who some 10 years or so ago was on the 회장’s first team of foreign advisors. He was familiar with the chairman and some of the other execs currently running the companies in the group. He told me that some of the people on this “first team of foreigners” are still with the company and in executive roles now. For example one of the foreigners was VP of marketing for mobile phones, or something similar (hope he doesn’t approve any funny commercials…). I don’t know what kind of experiences they have with the mostly Korean management, but I have been considering finding some of these guys soon and talking to them to see what kind of future I might expect if I stay with the group.
I do know that my company is very interested in recruiting and retaining foreign talent at my level and on up, but it’s difficult to convince Westerners (and their spouses) to move and stay in Korea. They are, at least so I’ve been told, eager to get western thought processes and management processes instilled into the group. Now, just how successful they will be or how serious some of the big dogs are about this.. I can’t say for sure.
When I hear about the revolving door policies for upper management in Korean companies such as KIA and Hyundai I think one has to look at the particular psychology of a segment of the population- the ajushis. Yeah, other countries of the world have egotistical, power trip loving middle aged men who don’t listen to anybody and prefer underlings not intelligent input, but Korea seems to have a disproportionate amount of such men.
This isn’t bashing Korea because, hell, I’m Korean! Stubborn ajushis built this country to what it is today. The World Bank says HA HA Korea, you can’t build a steel mill we ain’t gonna lend you a dime. Well, the ajushis just say fuck you World Bank, how do you like POSCO? So it’s got its pluses and minuses. I’m starting to be convinced that as Korea becomes more of a 1st world country and needs to be a more reputable player in the global market place, it needs ah, er, a different management style. More Wharton, less neo-confucian cronyism.
I don’t know, that’s just me.
@35) Theres a “neo-con” joke somehwere in there….
Aren’t you the guy who posted his breathless observations on “My very first trip to Korea, ever!” on a blog in 2006, at the age of 33? You’re Korean? Got news for you — you’re American.
#31: OK, didn’t know we we’re playing gotcha! So, how about GM selling Buick Allure’s as LaCrosse’s in 2003?
Also, look at what happened when Benz and Chrysler tried to integrate their corporate cultures?
“No va!” Won’t go! That’s hilarious!
I remember when Benz came out with those little cars that were like American eono-boxes for thirty thou. It was just sad.
Brendon,
For some strange reason you continue to believe that blog is some kind of window into my soul. Well, FYI- I wrote it for all my non-Korean friends who kept asking me how my trip to Korea was. Instead of telling my stories over and over again, I set-up that blog. So, if you keep the audience in mind, you’ll see why I describe Korea with a sort of quaintness.
Also, you neglect to understand that there is a such thing as a hyphenated American. Think Michael Corleone. I imagine a shark like you can quote the Godfather chapter and verse, like the Bible, right? Anyways, to me all three movies in the series epitimized what it means to be such a “hyphenated” American. Remember when he went to Sicily to lay low? He blended in and didn’t stick out like a typical American. He could interact between the cultures. His cultural and business interests were both in America and Sicily/Italy. At the end of the day I’m sure he was more comfortable being an American, but his Sicilian/Italian side hung over him like the Comandatore in Don Giovanni.
FYI, and he wasn’t even born in Itay…
The Godfather was a movie, Wangon. Ethnic Koreans from overseas are often easy to spot by their body language, clothing, and hairstyles. Every summer, the campus of the university where I worked would swarm with North American gyopos sent by their parents to learn Korean. The vulgar language and mannerisms of some of these young people offended real Koreans. I’m sure you minded your manners during your visit, but don’t fool yourself. You grew up in a Korean home but were socialized in American schools and society. Koreans have explained to me, “Korean-Americans are not the same as Koreans. Their culture is different.” Koreans in China likewise perceived significant cultural differences that distinguished themselves from local ethnic Korean-Chinese. Your ability to blend in more easily in Korea is largely due to your face and perhaps your language abilities if you are completely fluent in Korean; however, even little differences in language might give you away. A Korean-American friend was chastized by a Korean colleague at a meeting, “When I hear someone make a (grammar) mistake like that, I could slap them.”
#41, I don’t think Wangon’s point was that he could move through Korea undetected, but that as a “hyphenated American” he came to Korea with a cultural framework that helped him to get what was going on.
Good grief woman! I know Godfather WAS a movie! But consider this… Mario Puzo used archetypes he was familiar with in real life to contruct his fictional characters. The depth of these characters and the conflicts each had with reconciling their American Dreams with their conflicted (as well as ETHIC) backgrounds is what makes these (at least two of three) movies classics and Oscar worthy.
And I don’t mean that Korean Americans or Italian Americans or whatever Americans can seamlessly blend into both societies. Most of us can’t. My point in bringing out the Godfather was to illistrate the idea of the American who may have been born and raised in the U.S. but have enough of his parent’s cultural background (which can be reinforced by attending the parent’s church, being babysit by the parents friends and extended family, participating in rituals such as communion, etc. playing with kids and doing business in the ethnic neighborhood, etc.) to at least have a window and a view into his parent’s culture that’s at least a little wider and a little deeper then someone who was never raised in said household/environment.
Ethnic Koreans raised by Korean parents in a Korean-speaking household have a running start compared to non-ethnic Koreans, but the latter can catch up. Brendon is married to a Korean, raising two bilingual, bicultural daughters, and works with a large number of Korean colleagues.
#40 WangKon, nice post.
Brendon’s not like one of those fucking busy North American lawyers. It’s his time to waste, and oh boy does he do just that. He’s apparently a kind of checking and commenting on The Marmot’s Hole every 30 minutes of the damn work-day lawyer. His 15 comments/day on the Hole speak volumes about his importance to his firm. “fucking UPSA!”
How dare you try to complain, Wangkon, that growing up with Korean parents might give you an insight into Korean culture that disagrees with Brendon’s? Hubris! The arrogance of …. ummm, oh, forget it. He has a Korean wife! That supercedes your entire existence growing up with Korean parents! Fool! You must accept that Brendon Carr, grunt-turned-intelletual, knows that he has not left a trail of his own life mistakes online as you apparently have.
Wangon’s comment was measured and thoughtful, in my opinion.
Sonagi,
I can only judge by what I read. Judging by what I read it appears that Brendon merely tolerates and “deals with” what and who Koreans are and there isn’t really any “understanding” going on.
But I don’t know… maybe he’s a real softie in real life and just an ass at the ‘hole as illustrated in his smart ass (and unprovoked, mind you) comment in # 37.
As much as a few here would like everyone to believe, there isn’t so much of a rift between jaemi kyopo and Koreans. I’m well aware of the tensions that might exist, but it’s not something I’d have to worry about when, say, I interact with my cousins or aunts and uncles. And I’m sure all those kyopos in the entertainment business aren’t feeling like wayguk either.
Anyway, potentially any Korean can be a Korean-American. But only Korean Americans are Korean Americans. Not many Americans have parents who are Korean or knows what it’s like to grow up as an ethnic Korean — and be linked in some social and real causal sense to the way Koreans in Korea or anywhere are perceived in the world. This point is significant. There is a heavy imbalance- ie between Americans who can claim a share in the experience of being a KA, and the fact that any Korean, potentially, can be a KA– that makes the identification “I’m Korean” far more correct than ever incorrect. Sayin.
@#45:
“To know me is to like me.”
“Familiarity breeds contempt.”
Both sayings hold true. I think the difference between you and Brendon is not in understanding but in identification. You called yourself Korean. I don’t think Brendon thinks of himself as Korean.
Wow, white people telling non-whites what to think and who they are. What else is new, huh?
# 47,
Brendon has a point… My passport does not say “Republic of Korea” on it so by that definition I’m not “Korean” in a legal sense. But… I don’t think that’s what he means.
Hey listen, I’m not as “Korean” as the average kimchi eating joe in the streets of Seoul, yes this is true. No arguement there. But isn’t it presumptuous to say that I’m not A, but I’m B when questions of identity are more subjective and personal in nature anyways?
Tiger Woods is like what? 1/4 to 1/3 black? But he’s never said that he’s African American (or Thai American for that matter). Halle Berry, on the other hand, identifies more with being African American despite being half white. Who are we to tell any of these aforementioned people that they are wrong or confused?
My point is it’s nobody’s business (least of all Mr. Carr’s) what I identify myself as.
Wow, disgruntled man wanting to turn this into a race thing. What else is new, huh?
So Wangon’s model of a hyphenated American is provided by a cartoon called The Godfather. No wonder kyopos are so challenged in assimilating.
Implicit in this debate is disagreement over the definition of “Korean.” The traditional Korean approach, which is still widely accepted, is to define nationality strictly in terms of race. Many of mixed race in Korea are now officially Korean citizens, however, and the definition is slowly evolving. Immigrants in all countries would prefer, though, that race not be used to determine nationality and citizenship.
OK, not as great a departure from topic as the comedian-does-bikini-pics-post, but still impressive.
Yes, Koreans distinguishing themselves from Gyopos and Joseonjok is a perfect example of that.
The issue is not whether a guy holding a US passport is or is not “Korean”, Ed. As Sonagi notes, it’s really a matter of the software in the head — a cultural question. You are of course welcome to self-identify as Korean, due to race — a choice that none of us Caucasian or half-Caucasian residents of Korea are allowed, even if we were completely socialized as Koreans (which I wasn’t) — but the software in your head is inevitably affected by socialization overseas. What I’m saying is that your criticism of Korea and Korean behavior should be judged the same as mine — you’re just an American like me. Skin color shouldn’t give you a pass.
Tell me which country are kyopos more loyal to, America or Korea ?
# 52,
I believe The Godfather I and II won the academy award for best motion picture, not animation. A tounge-in-cheek answer to your very moronic statement.
And no, the Godfather doesn’t represent my “model” of what it’s like to be a hyphenated American. Like most people who refer to the Godfather, it’s done so to illustrate a point using a pop culture icon. I thought I was doing so to reach a broader audience, but I guess in your case you just don’t get it.
Culturally speaking, the point is, Wangkon is a Korean-American, ie, an American but not like you.
Of course one would have to have a very thin view of personhood to identify oneself as Korean or American based on passport. But, at the same time, culture or the character of one’s socializiation isn’t reducible to nationality either.
If you’re going to use slurs, the term to use is swab-turned-intellectual. But I think “intellectual” is a rather outrageous slur.
All moot, since Pawi already claimed WangKon for the Korean team, 2 days ago in the Gwak Hyun Hwa thread. I think that settles it, no?
@61,
I would have to reject your pawionomy. A Korean-American goes to Korea to teach at a hagwon. Does he become “expat”? It doesn’t depend on pawi’s word, I’d say. There are laws that govern even pawi. I imaagine pawi would settle for the idea that said KA is Korean but a despicable Korean if the Korean is a self-loather and Korean, without any modifier, otherwise.
A strange evolution, this thread. I would say Pawi’s description of a self-loather has little to do with self and more to do with things Korean.
I have met Kyobos who rankle me and others who I hope I can remain friends with for the rest of my days. Now if I had only met one whose personality struck me wrong and painted all with the same brush I’d probably be outta line.
I don’t believe I fit truly within the expat designation or the mere American. I try to grant myself and others a bit broader definition of themselves. When each of us started a new day and when we came home from school we were all greeted with different surprises. This world is not a factory and we are more than the sum of our labels.
Is that what you meant by the soft-ware thingy, Brendon?
@57 this is a question best answered by a hater like pawi, who has the bad habit of making an impossible generalized statement about a group of people who are actually quite diverse.
It’s not a reasonable question since answering that would be an unfair (impossible to make) generalization. Some gyopos are more loyal to Korea, some are more loyal to America. I know some of each flavor.
So which is it nimrod, not a model or a representative icon? Or are you going to claim the usual Korean exception to the elementary rules of logic?
And BTW the notion that the Academy Awards are significant of cultural achievement outside the bounds of the technical craft of cinema, e.g., acting, cinematography, direction, etc. - i.e., that they are indicative of any sort of content quality - is risible. I guess that like most modern investment bankers you forgot to get an education while you were learning to crunch numbers.
We shall refer to a more authoritative source than pop references.
In the NT, Apostle Paul never identified himself as a Roman, despite his citizenship. Basically that citizenship entitled him to a trial and a beheading, as opposed to crucifixion. He was first and foremost a Jew and a Pharisee.
So which is it nimrod, not a model or a representative icon? Or are you going to claim the usual Korean exception to the elementary rules of logic?
Hey Spock, I thought Wang made perfect sense. We’re not talking fucking Boolean equations here.
So, in your analogy taken via the Book, ethnic identity = religion and trumps citizenship, right?
I don’t know. I usually find the non-ethnic Korean (Carr, Sonagi, etc.) side to be correct most of the time in these kyopo vs. white foreigner debates, but this time, I am siding with Wangkon 100%.
I mean, it’s like someone else said, being American does not preclude you from being something else. You can’t apply a “you’re either with us or against us” type of mindset to one’s cultural soul. Sure..why can’t we all be Americans but some Americans be Mexican-American and some Korean-Americans and some other Lebanese-Americans? I see nothing wrong with that.
I find that western culture, especially American culture, seems to unfortunately always think in absolutes or the law of incompatibility. I think it is probably a result of Judeo-Christian monetheistic valus which state that one can only be a Christian exclusively. In other words, a true Christian cannot and must not be accepting of any non-Christian ideas even though he/she accepts all of Christian ideas. Get it? However, I personally believe that it is possible to hold some Christian beliefs as well as beliefs from other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. What’s the problem?
Also, I may be a bit biased, but I really take what Wangkong has said to heart regarding Mario Puzo and the “Godfather”. No other movie has ever captured and depicted the emotional essence and historical dramas that shaped and nourished the Italian American people/culture of this country better than F.Ford Coppola’s masterpiece. Starting from Vito’s childhood in Siciliy and showing how important the “ghetto” community in NYC was for Italian immigrants like him to develop and grow in the early part of this century, the movie, in my honest opinion, is acutally quite a very good icon of what the hypenhated American concept is for this country’s culture.
By the way, if anyone hasn’t already guessed by now, I am of Italian decent from both of my parents side, and I grew up speaking Italian with both sets of grandparents. My father was the first American-born of his family, and my mother actually was born in Italy but came to the US when she was 15 years old with my grandparents. Thus, my mother is completely bilingual and my father’ level is still conversational but less so than that of my mother. I still occasionally converse in Italian with my mom, but less so with my father. Furthermore, because my grandparents were all from northern Italy (Trieste and Firenze), I don’t have dark features and look like your normal WASP.
However, unlike most of my caucasian friends, I actually can identify closely with what almost all of my 1st gen. and 2nd gen. K-American, Chi/Japn/Viet-American friends went through growing up in a somewhat dual-cultural upbringing, and not for one second do I regret it. I actually feel very fortunate that both my sister and I spoke Italian at home with my grandparents who actually only had an elementary understanding of English. I am also glad I was able to visit our relatives in Italy several times during our summer vacations and actually was a die hard fan of Serie A football long before it became “hip” to be a fan of soccer in some esoteric circles in the US. I am also happy I was able to eat so much of the rich and tasty cuisine with which Italy has blessed the world but actually in a homemade and authentic setting. My mom shopped at our local Italian import grocery in our city weekly, just like the mothers of Korean kyopo kids did while growing up in areas of heavy Korean populations such as LA, NYC or Chicago. It’s weird because in a way, even though I am white, I almost feel as if I have more in common with the Asian-Americans since I actually grew up in a semi-FOB (fresh off the boat) environment. Not too many white FOBs in America in this day and age.
You guys like off-topic? Here you go.
@66 thanks for the sermon.
But at the time of his beheading, wouldn’t it be more correct to consider Paul a Christian rather than a Jew?
Try taking a position as an officer in a foreign army or government, joining an organization that acts in furtherance of a position antithetical to the fundamental principles of the Constitution or becoming an enemy combatant at any level, and you’ll soon be learning all sorts of new water sports.
Other than that there is no preclusion, but if the other stuff isn’t subsumed in your freely chosen and professed American identity, and you’re just seeing how deep into Uncle Sam’s rice bowl you can get, don’t expect much sympathy when you start whingeing about not being treated like one.
[BTW, I'm from northern Italian stock, too, I grew up in my WOP (w/out papers) immigrant grandparent's house speaking Italian and eating cuts of meat you can't even find in American groceries any more, and I even have cousins who are bona fide wise guys -- and Puzo is an embarrassment (even to wise guys).]
wait a minute, I thought you claimed you were German desecent, Sperwer.
anyway Sperwer, for all your talk,
you seemed to have FAILED to assimilate into Korean society, despite
marrying into a well to do Korean family and what not.
My uncle was a high rank in the Korean National Police, too.
One stray German on my father’s side.
I haven’t immigrated to Korea, have no intention of becoming naturalized and have no interest in assimilating - which would be impossible in any event in an unprincipled polity the only viable basis for which is race.
BTW, I’m flattered that you’re taking notes.
@70
That’s pretty cool that you are descended from a WOP background just like myself. Così, avete parlato italiano con i vostri genitori anche?
I do agree Puzo is too Italians as Don Ho is to Hawaiians, but I still believe that “The Godfather II” was a great movie in terms of depicting one of the most colorful and endearing examples of the immigrant culture and history of the United States. Also, I found that while living in Korea and Japan (although to a lesser extent in Japan), almost every native I met was very fond of Italy, more so than the US. Even after Ahn Jung Hwan was fired from Perugia after the World Cup controversy, all of my Korean colleagues and friend expressed how much they liked or admired Italy more than any other country in Europe. The funny thing is that my citizenship is USA, but they kept telling me I was Italian, not American. I think it’s because of my last name which is easily recognizable as being Italian.
Also, you are correct that being American can indeed preclude you from claiming “priveldges” or “status” of another country, but I think you are referring to only the legal or citizenship implications being an “American”. Culturally, however, I feel it is possible to be very close to my Italian heritage without having to sacrifice or give up any of my American heritage.
Exactly what cuts of meat are you talking about? Are you talking about Cotechino / Cotechini, Sopressata, Prosciutto Cotto and the likes? You have relatives who are wise guys? Niiice. Most of my relatives are stronzos, but very nice stronzos.
Sorry for the topic change.
i am an american teaching english in korea. my adult business men’s conversational class is fascinating. they like to give me advice on living in korea. one such example: never buy a kia. it is a bad car.
other “korean” brands like daewoo or hyundai? fine. but the korean guys insist that i never buy a kia.
seems they have problems much deeper there than mgt.
Spewer,
That’s because you are northern Italian, which are Lombards and more like Germans rather then the original Italians.
Anyways, the answer to your question regarding supposed divided loyalties of hyphenated Americans is also in The Godfather. Remember, Michael Corleone was a World War II vet with a purple heart and a bronze star (I believe). Thus the answer is not to think of us in terms of where our loyalties lie. In my opinion, it’s possible to be nationally tied to one nation, but culturally still have affinity to another.
bbundaegi,
Thanks for understanding. When I saw all three Godfathers, I kinda thought the theme of the Italian heritage affecting the assimilation process was rather obvious. This naturally lead me to think more about how my heritage was affecting how I was becoming Americanized. Regardless of national origin, one hyphenated American does tend to better understand another.
WangKon:
Nice try, but - Northern Italy is anything north of Rome; that includes a lot of tribes besides the Lombards, Piedmontese, Milanesi, etc. My ancestors come from Tuscany and Romagna - not Roman for sure, but the Tuscan side are “original” Italians, i.e. Etruscans, as you so mistakenly try to essentialize them, although the Emilia-Romagnans - along with a host of other tribes - would probably contest that anachronistic reading too. There really are no “original” Italians, just a lot of tribes that eventually amalgamated as the “Italian” nation in the late 19th century - much as there are no -gasp! - original Koreans, just a similar amalgam. Anyway, there are plenty of Neopolitans, Sicilians and Calabrians - both educated and otherwise - who find little in Puzo with which to empathize. It’s just a caricature.
In my case, I am nationally tied to two nations (USA and Italy) as I hold both passports. Culturally, I have affinities to both nations although I am more comfortable and identify more closely to America.
Bbudndaegi is speaking my language, so thumbs up to you.
For some commenters on this blog, thinking beyond the rudimentary either/or construct is too much of stretch and gives too much of a mental strain. Even worse, there was one person who, in his usual effort to denigrate everything Koreans do, chastized kyopos for referring to themselves as Korean-Americans and not just as Americans; he then tried to generalize and infer some malicious trait therefrom. And then of course there are the other assholes who impugn kyopos for referring to themselves as Americans at all. Good lawd. It’s no wonder pawi exists.
Usually, Wangkon is on the “side” of reason. He’s a smart guy. I’m sure he’s experiencing the same cognitive dissonance I have from time to time when I find my own self in agreement with pawikirogi.
BTW, I don’t have any “question” about the issue of divided loyalties among immigrant Americans. It’s simply a fact that the American way is more or less challenging to all immigrants. In some ways, the challenges are trivial, colorful or otherwise just interesting. In others, they are very fundamental, because the principles of American life fundamentally contradict those in which the immigrant originally was acculturated. Most people overcome these fundamental issues. Michael Corleone wasn’t one of them. His represented service, like Robert Kim’s?, was just a smokescreen designed to groom him to pass as a regular citizen, making his elevation as Don even more certain and ensuring the survival of the atavistic way of life cosa nostra represents as an even more insidious element in American society. And it is insidious - I once knew a President of the Longshoreman’s Union who was just such a cross-over figure - a minor wise-guy in his own right, whose father-in-law was Tough Tony Anastasia - the head of “Murder Inc.” and whose daughter was a much mocked New York newsreader. He was slick, smooth and moved in the “best” circles in New York - he also was a convicted felon (labor-racketeering), and I had to meet him in the back room of a Carroll Gardens Italian ristorante, where people actually kissed his hand. That’s when I started using my permit and strapping up.
Bbundaegi:
I was referrtig to things like trippa, cervello, rene, fegato and piedi di maialle, which were staples of my grandmother’s kitchen table - along with as many varieties of pasta as there allegedly are sorts of kimchi.
I also agree that there are parts of one’s ethnic immigrant heritage that the American way enables one to preserve and cultivate, if you have the wit, energy and courage to make the effort. That’s actually part of the greatness of it, (unlike places like Korea where the nail that sticks up gets pounded down). But the other part of the greatness of the US is that it does away with certain of the constraints of the old country, i.e., those that deprecate individual liberty. Unfortunately, a lot of people grow nostalgic about their former bonds once they get used to moving around without ‘em.
“Unfortunately, a lot of people grow nostalgic about their former bonds once they get used to moving around without ‘em.”
What an excellent way to describe that phenomenon. My grandparents were just like that even though they lived more than 50 years in the US. However, both sets of my grandparents decided to go back to Italy to their hometown villages to live their last years of life. My maternal grandmother is still living there in Castilion Fiorentino.
Also you are right that being able to freely keep what you want and bring a unique flavor to the table is what is great about this country, America. In countries of Asia like Korea, it would be much more of a struggle.
Spewer, you got me. My knowledge of Italian geography and anthropology is basic at best.
I generally avoid pawi like I avoid a Jehovah’s Witness knocking on my door. You are likely to get into an argument without accomplishing anything and who wants to waste time doing that?
Michael Corleone and his friends got in trouble in the village for being crass toward that man’s daughter. Kind of a poor analogy to use when you’re talking about Michael fitting seamlessly into Italy or kyopos fitting seamlessly into Korea. Unless you’re talking about Hongdae, in which case kyopos being crass toward women would make it totally accurate.
Didn’t he marry her?
Castiglione(?) Fiorentino, eh?
Well, compaesano, my grandfather’s hometown wasn’t too far up the road - Commune di Dovadola, right at the border of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna, and now part of the modern province of Forlì-Cesena, which is considered part of the modern area of Emilia-Romagna. My grandmother was from Rimini, on the Adriatic.
#74. “Most of my relatives are stronzos, but very nice stronzos.”
I did a bit of googling to find out the meaning of ‘stronzo’. Here is what I found:
“”turd” in English if I’m not wrong! But it’s used as dubbed version of your asshole in movies. Definitely not a polite word, surely stronger than stupid!”
“my italian speaking friends use this word a lot when they are irritated about something. It works great when you want to cuss out a bad driver in traffic.”
“Asshole connotes willfully obnoxious behavior, whereas I thought a stronzo was just someone who did something really stupid, like our “shit for brains.””
“I used to live with Italians who at first didn’t speak that much English. There did finally come a day when stronzo was finally replaced by fuckwit.”
“Once an Italian friend wrote me about her just-exed boyfriend and glossed it in English, “E’ uno stronzo (he’s a little shit!)!””
I’ve been here since 2001. Someone who got here in 2006 telling me he’s Korean makes me sick. You didn’t go to Yonsei, you weren’t in the ROK Army, you didn’t meet your girlfriend at a booking club, you don’t wear slippers and track suits and you don’t spit in ashtrays. You’re American.
By the way, I would love to get soap on a rope for Christmas.
you’re not a “real” Korean. Fair enough?
No, no I’m not. But neither is he.
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