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	<title>Comments on: Yeah, What DO the English Teachers Think?</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Sat,  5 Jul 2008 11:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Multilingual Family / Multlingva Familio</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-136248</link>
		<dc:creator>Multilingual Family / Multlingva Familio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-136248</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;English TV in Korea - Anglalingva TV en Koreio...&lt;/strong&gt;

English TV in Korea - Anglalingva TV en Koreio Quite recently I was shocked by [this film], in which a girl (Yogaile is her name) is playing with a toy duck, speaking herself in English. Yogaile is 6 years old and she speaks 3 other languages, and unde...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>English TV in Korea - Anglalingva TV en Koreio&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>English TV in Korea - Anglalingva TV en Koreio Quite recently I was shocked by [this film], in which a girl (Yogaile is her name) is playing with a toy duck, speaking herself in English. Yogaile is 6 years old and she speaks 3 other languages, and unde&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133361</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133361</guid>
		<description>#24

Sadly, everything you say is the god's honest truth

this is true everywhere, not just Korea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#24</p>
<p>Sadly, everything you say is the god&#8217;s honest truth</p>
<p>this is true everywhere, not just Korea</p>
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		<title>By: leefr</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133360</link>
		<dc:creator>leefr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133360</guid>
		<description>The Chosun Ilbo ran an interview with an American English teacher named Reuben Wackerle in its Korean edition - if you can't read Korean, you can check out the clip of part of the interview near the bottom of the page.

http://issue.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2008/02/04/2008020400389.html

Unfortunately, the reporter did a poor job of translating the remarks made by Mr. Wackerle into Korean. There are several glaring discrepancies, some of them probably made on purpose in order to adhere to the conventional wisdom on what is wrong with English education in Korea. A case in point would be the teacher's remarks concerning vocabulary and grammar - he actually commented positively on the need to obtain basic grammar and vocabulary but the article cited him as denouncing the Korean emphasis on that area. Another would be his comment that some older teachers were proficient in English due to their continuing study and experience, which the article changed into a statement that older teachers were categorically worthless in English conversation. Or the part where he quoted the 49% statistic of Korean teachers who can teach in English - the scepticism he expresses with his grimace and silence just flies right over the reporter's head.

Watching the clip, I kind of felt for the guy. He's earnest and willing to help, but speaking in front of a camera was probably a nervous experience and he just has no idea what agenda this reporter has during the interview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Chosun Ilbo ran an interview with an American English teacher named Reuben Wackerle in its Korean edition - if you can&#8217;t read Korean, you can check out the clip of part of the interview near the bottom of the page.</p>
<p><a href="http://issue.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2008/02/04/2008020400389.html" rel="nofollow">http://issue.chosun.com/site/d.....00389.html</a></p>
<p>Unfortunately, the reporter did a poor job of translating the remarks made by Mr. Wackerle into Korean. There are several glaring discrepancies, some of them probably made on purpose in order to adhere to the conventional wisdom on what is wrong with English education in Korea. A case in point would be the teacher&#8217;s remarks concerning vocabulary and grammar - he actually commented positively on the need to obtain basic grammar and vocabulary but the article cited him as denouncing the Korean emphasis on that area. Another would be his comment that some older teachers were proficient in English due to their continuing study and experience, which the article changed into a statement that older teachers were categorically worthless in English conversation. Or the part where he quoted the 49% statistic of Korean teachers who can teach in English - the scepticism he expresses with his grimace and silence just flies right over the reporter&#8217;s head.</p>
<p>Watching the clip, I kind of felt for the guy. He&#8217;s earnest and willing to help, but speaking in front of a camera was probably a nervous experience and he just has no idea what agenda this reporter has during the interview.</p>
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		<title>By: Woland</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133357</link>
		<dc:creator>Woland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133357</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, Matthew, politics is reality. Politicians are elected to terms of limited length, and their goals will mostly be short term, of necessity. This is especially in systems where re-election is possible. That's not the case for Korean presidents, but even so, too much concentration on things that are going to pay off after you leave office is taking a chance on who will get credit. Best to have things that appear to do something done on your watch so that you can take credit for them, and be seen to be taking credit for them. And if they turn out not to pay off later, well, that's someone else's problem (and fault).

Sure, there's some work towards long term change of the system going on, but the short term stuff never goes away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, Matthew, politics is reality. Politicians are elected to terms of limited length, and their goals will mostly be short term, of necessity. This is especially in systems where re-election is possible. That&#8217;s not the case for Korean presidents, but even so, too much concentration on things that are going to pay off after you leave office is taking a chance on who will get credit. Best to have things that appear to do something done on your watch so that you can take credit for them, and be seen to be taking credit for them. And if they turn out not to pay off later, well, that&#8217;s someone else&#8217;s problem (and fault).</p>
<p>Sure, there&#8217;s some work towards long term change of the system going on, but the short term stuff never goes away.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133351</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133351</guid>
		<description>I agree with the point that Korea has outstripped it's goal of EVERYONE speaking at a high level.  However, this does not mean that MANY can speak at a high level of proficiency.  Korea simply has to change it's goals.  It has to change the short term solution that hires Token teachers to crapilly teach every student English to the long term solution that allows qualified teachers to teach less students English correctly.  Eventually resulting in a fluent English society in the longer term.

Short term solutions = politics
long term solutions = reality</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the point that Korea has outstripped it&#8217;s goal of EVERYONE speaking at a high level.  However, this does not mean that MANY can speak at a high level of proficiency.  Korea simply has to change it&#8217;s goals.  It has to change the short term solution that hires Token teachers to crapilly teach every student English to the long term solution that allows qualified teachers to teach less students English correctly.  Eventually resulting in a fluent English society in the longer term.</p>
<p>Short term solutions = politics<br />
long term solutions = reality</p>
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		<title>By: Woland</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133349</link>
		<dc:creator>Woland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133349</guid>
		<description>Brian - what you've written here and on your blog is good. I agree with much of it.

I would add here that we have to be careful about what the goal of increasing communicative competence means. Given the reality of hours of instruction available, the conditions of instruction, including the talents of the teachers in question, this goal (and the concomitant hiring of native speaker teachers) may be as much a way for politicians to appear to be doing something about an issue the public has an eye on as anything else.

Henry Widdowson's book, Issues in English Language Teaching, is really an extended argument about what the curriculum should be in EFL contexts. He makes the point repeatedly that English is a school subject, like other school subjects, in these contexts and is largely testes and taught in similar ways to other school subjects. Given this, and the time and resources available, a focus on building basic language knowledge (words and rules, as Pinker puts it) is understandable.

And this may be all that school can provide - a foundation of knowledge, with a bit of skill development based on that knowledge. What this can do is give everyone some exposure, help identify people who may have an aptitude for languages or allow others to discover an interest in it. The fuller development of skilled use would really have to wait for other contexts, where people may actually know better who needs to learn what.

What has happened in Korea is that the stated goals (everyone speaking English at a high level of proficiency when they finish school) has outstripped the possibilities given the resources. The demand for this goal has been driven by the misuse of English as a measure of other abilities and social status by people who are unwilling or unable to make decisions about standards. And the solutions to the problem posed by this goal are as much problems as the goal itself - the importing of random native speakers, as if just being exposed to them will make a difference; the splitting up of families to take children abroad for a year or two, again as if this will consistently have long term positive effects on language ability and other measures of knowledge.

Schools can and should be improved, but the idea of what schools can do, at least in terms of language learning, may have moved into the unrealistic in Korea. And there have been a lot of people aiding and abetting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian - what you&#8217;ve written here and on your blog is good. I agree with much of it.</p>
<p>I would add here that we have to be careful about what the goal of increasing communicative competence means. Given the reality of hours of instruction available, the conditions of instruction, including the talents of the teachers in question, this goal (and the concomitant hiring of native speaker teachers) may be as much a way for politicians to appear to be doing something about an issue the public has an eye on as anything else.</p>
<p>Henry Widdowson&#8217;s book, Issues in English Language Teaching, is really an extended argument about what the curriculum should be in EFL contexts. He makes the point repeatedly that English is a school subject, like other school subjects, in these contexts and is largely testes and taught in similar ways to other school subjects. Given this, and the time and resources available, a focus on building basic language knowledge (words and rules, as Pinker puts it) is understandable.</p>
<p>And this may be all that school can provide - a foundation of knowledge, with a bit of skill development based on that knowledge. What this can do is give everyone some exposure, help identify people who may have an aptitude for languages or allow others to discover an interest in it. The fuller development of skilled use would really have to wait for other contexts, where people may actually know better who needs to learn what.</p>
<p>What has happened in Korea is that the stated goals (everyone speaking English at a high level of proficiency when they finish school) has outstripped the possibilities given the resources. The demand for this goal has been driven by the misuse of English as a measure of other abilities and social status by people who are unwilling or unable to make decisions about standards. And the solutions to the problem posed by this goal are as much problems as the goal itself - the importing of random native speakers, as if just being exposed to them will make a difference; the splitting up of families to take children abroad for a year or two, again as if this will consistently have long term positive effects on language ability and other measures of knowledge.</p>
<p>Schools can and should be improved, but the idea of what schools can do, at least in terms of language learning, may have moved into the unrealistic in Korea. And there have been a lot of people aiding and abetting.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133346</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133346</guid>
		<description>To Linkd # 18

I recognize my voice is not as important as a native teacher.  Furthermore, I don't really have a problem with this, because yes, this is not our country.

But at the same time, you can chalk it up to "just the way it ism," but it does not necessarily make it a smart course of action.

This goes beyond simple education to the culture in general.  A system that relies more on age than experience is bound to have some difficulties.  But then again, every culture and system presents it's own unique problems...these are Korea's.

In regards to the newness...I hope the sparkle never dims</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Linkd # 18</p>
<p>I recognize my voice is not as important as a native teacher.  Furthermore, I don&#8217;t really have a problem with this, because yes, this is not our country.</p>
<p>But at the same time, you can chalk it up to &#8220;just the way it ism,&#8221; but it does not necessarily make it a smart course of action.</p>
<p>This goes beyond simple education to the culture in general.  A system that relies more on age than experience is bound to have some difficulties.  But then again, every culture and system presents it&#8217;s own unique problems&#8230;these are Korea&#8217;s.</p>
<p>In regards to the newness&#8230;I hope the sparkle never dims</p>
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		<title>By: Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog)</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133340</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133340</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In general, local organizations do not want foreign input when it comes to major strategic decisions, even from foreigners who might have thought they were hired for just that reason.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You got that right. The syndrome is more or less pronounced from organization to organization, but always in the equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In general, local organizations do not want foreign input when it comes to major strategic decisions, even from foreigners who might have thought they were hired for just that reason.</p></blockquote>
<p>You got that right. The syndrome is more or less pronounced from organization to organization, but always in the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133338</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133338</guid>
		<description>Well, we have a pretty limited role in the classroom.  In my public school I see my students once or twice a month, and some classes I only met with 4 times all semester.  There is still the belief that Korean teachers' experience trumps our abilities as native speakers.  To a large extent that's justified, and I concede that.  They did, after all, graduate with English education degrees, whereas a lot of us were just hired b/c we have the right passport.  But you'll notice that a lot of Korean teachers will concede conversation classes to us, and will be completely afraid or unwilling to teach that subject area.  I think, if the goal is to improve communicative competence, our opinions and input ought to be valued.  But in the grand scheme of things, we have to accept a secondary position.  We are invited guests, and this isn't our country, and the majority of us don't have the paper qualifications to give our opinion any weight.  I do think there ought to be a system in place, to complement the latest round of criminal checks and degree verifications, to allow us a greater stake in the subject we're teaching.  Why not allow us to attend workshops and camps that count for something?  Why not have a grading system in place that evaluates teachers based on teaching experience, camps, workshops, activities, and language skills, and that rewards us---not just with money---but with greater authority and greater influence?   

I wrote more about this on my (quick) take on the survey (which I don't think highly of, btw): http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com/2008/02/korea-times-what-do-english-teachers.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, we have a pretty limited role in the classroom.  In my public school I see my students once or twice a month, and some classes I only met with 4 times all semester.  There is still the belief that Korean teachers&#8217; experience trumps our abilities as native speakers.  To a large extent that&#8217;s justified, and I concede that.  They did, after all, graduate with English education degrees, whereas a lot of us were just hired b/c we have the right passport.  But you&#8217;ll notice that a lot of Korean teachers will concede conversation classes to us, and will be completely afraid or unwilling to teach that subject area.  I think, if the goal is to improve communicative competence, our opinions and input ought to be valued.  But in the grand scheme of things, we have to accept a secondary position.  We are invited guests, and this isn&#8217;t our country, and the majority of us don&#8217;t have the paper qualifications to give our opinion any weight.  I do think there ought to be a system in place, to complement the latest round of criminal checks and degree verifications, to allow us a greater stake in the subject we&#8217;re teaching.  Why not allow us to attend workshops and camps that count for something?  Why not have a grading system in place that evaluates teachers based on teaching experience, camps, workshops, activities, and language skills, and that rewards us&#8212;not just with money&#8212;but with greater authority and greater influence?   </p>
<p>I wrote more about this on my (quick) take on the survey (which I don&#8217;t think highly of, btw): <a href="http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com/2008/02/korea-times-what-do-english-teachers.html" rel="nofollow">http://briandeutsch.blogspot.c.....chers.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Linkd</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133337</link>
		<dc:creator>Linkd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/02/05/yeah-what-do-the-english-teachers-think/#comment-133337</guid>
		<description>Maddlew, I don't know how long you've been in-country, but your newness still sparkles. That's some great spirit you show.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Luckily, I was able to get my school to give me some extra classes in the afternoon. The classes will have fewer kids (like 20) that I get to see twice a week. I’m excited to see the outcome.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I hope that works out well for you. With regard to:
&lt;blockquote&gt;the few that do have expertise are marginalized...
If South Korea is serious about hiring more teachers, and more qualified teachers then it should allow them into the discussion...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This bit of juche thinking is not confined only to the ESL industry. In general, local organizations do not want foreign input when it comes to major strategic decisions, even from foreigners who might have thought they were hired for just that reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maddlew, I don&#8217;t know how long you&#8217;ve been in-country, but your newness still sparkles. That&#8217;s some great spirit you show.</p>
<blockquote><p>Luckily, I was able to get my school to give me some extra classes in the afternoon. The classes will have fewer kids (like 20) that I get to see twice a week. I’m excited to see the outcome.</p></blockquote>
<p>I hope that works out well for you. With regard to:</p>
<blockquote><p>the few that do have expertise are marginalized&#8230;<br />
If South Korea is serious about hiring more teachers, and more qualified teachers then it should allow them into the discussion&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>This bit of juche thinking is not confined only to the ESL industry. In general, local organizations do not want foreign input when it comes to major strategic decisions, even from foreigners who might have thought they were hired for just that reason.</p>
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