In a briefing today, the spokesman of President-elect Lee Myung-bak’s transition team called Lee’s English education plan the “second Cheonggyecheon,” a turning point that will lessen private education fees and strengthen national competitiveness.
All I know is that I find it beyond comprehension that foreign language education has become a matter of national life and death. To quote Jin Jung-kwon:
Sphere: Related ContentThe Philippines is one of the countries where people can speak English best in Asia, and it’s hard to make yourself understood in English in Japan. But compare these two countries and see which is more competitive.
43 Comments
Retard. Singapore is the place where people speak English the best in Asia, and it’s hard to make yourself understood in English in Vietnam. Which is more competitive?
#1: “Retard.”
agreed. he’s a moron.
“Singapore is the place where people speak English the best in Asia”
hate to disagree with you, linkd, but the THE place in asia where people speak the best english is…
right here at the hole.
Who is Retard?
Oh, I thought someone had posted and been deleted or something. He said “one of the best”, not the best. I heard they’re somewhat fluent in Malaysia.
The people in the Philippines, for the most part, were not that adept at spoken English, at least in the places I stayed a few years back. I was surprised because I had heard otherwise.
Hey, we’re competitive! It’s just that Japan mainly sells their cars and we sell our people!
jin jung kwon may be a retard, but can he pitch like this guy can?
http://www.sportsmansdaily.com.....onals.html
Beauty. Anyone looking for an avatar?
re: #5 “Hey, we’re competitive! It’s just that Japan mainly sells their cars and we sell our people!”
‘kin brilliant line!
i wish so many others in the world would have as great a sense of self-deprecating humour about their country as you do, littlebrown. muchos kudos and cheers for bringing a smile to my face.
I would have thought someone might have mentioned India.
hate to say it, but it is a bit of a “retarded” argument if it is only based on language ability. it is the cultural norms that truly are the deciding factor. some cultures work more, study more, and enjoy life a whole lot less. some cultures spend too much time going to churches/mosques and worrying about the man/men upstairs. some cultures focus a lot of time, energy, and money on their youth. others stick them in nike factories to sew soccer balls, and haven’t had the opportunity to break out of that cycle for lack of leadership. english ability helps, but education, drive, and vision do not come from a good TOEIC score. I think the Japanese simply figure leave English for those who really want to learn it,and let them get jobs as translators. I used to work for Samsung HR interviewing people in order to decide if their English was good enough to make or break their opportunity to enter the company. I’m certain they lost a lot of smart people based on those requirements, and a lot of the engineers will probably never meet a foreigner. Korea has been going through 50 years of growing pains and maybe the light is at the end of the tunnel…. in ten years time when putting up with dope smoking canadians teaching their kids for 40,000 bones an hour finally pays off.
“I sometimes find some students very slow in understanding classes even if I explain in Korean.”
That’s because students in Korea are not taught critical thinking. They are told to memorize the answers, even if the professor gives them the wrong answers. I don’t have enough digits or limbs to count the times I’ve argued with students about the proper pronunciation of a certain word, with them insisting that their Korean teacher was right (who can’t even teach an entire class in English) and I was wrong (who has no choice BUT to teach the entire class in English).
In fact, I went to a store recently to buy a lighter and the ajumma corrected me about how to pronounce lighter! It’s an English word! if anybody should be correcting anybody about pronunciation, it should have been me telling the ajumma that it’s pronounced “lightER”, not “lie-tah”
#5 - True!
Filipinos don’t believe in working overtime past a certain hour as well, and I don’t think English has anything to do with it.
Jin Jung Kwon is right that the immersion plan would not produce the results claimed and that it would have a potentially negative effect on learning, for the reason he gives:
“There’s a world of difference between what can be explained and understood in our own mother tongue and what can be explained and understood in foreign languages.”
I would add the phrase, “given limited student ability in those languages,” at the end.
His point that education policy should take into account real demand for English is well made. The sad truth is that English has become a stand in for other measures of social status, and the social demand for it bears no relation to real need. It would be a step forward if some other voices of reason were to come forward and make this point.
English education isn’t going away, and it shouldn’t. There is a need for some portions of the population to reach high levels of proficiency in the language. But it would be great if the Korean public could be brought to understand that knowing English doesn’t actually make you smarter (or more handsome or provide any other virtues). It would nice especially nice if companies stopped making this assumption in hiring and promoting.
It would also be nice if the limits of language education in schools can and should do. It can provide an equal opportunity for all children to gain a foundation that can support later learning if needed. It should allow all students to discover if they have an interest and/or an aptitude in this area that makes it worthwhile for them to pursue it further. It can’t, and shouldn’t be expected to make everyone highly proficient. There just isn’t a need for that.
I could go on and on (and do in other places). It was nice to hear someone call something stupid by its name for once. Cheers for Jin Jung Kwon.
““There’s a world of difference between what can be explained and understood in our own mother tongue and what can be explained and understood in foreign languages.”
I would add the phrase, “given limited student ability in those languages,” at the end.”
Did you miss out that his whole argument was based on an appeal to linguistic pride? Don’t you know that Korean is the “most scientific language in the world”?
The reason immersion won’t work is because even when immersion classes are given in a context where the students have the opportunity to use the target language outside of class (such as for French and English in Canada), the classes produce gaps in their ability to communicate in the second language as a classroom context is much different than a ‘real-world context’. For one, the interaction that takes place between students and teachers follow a certain focus and hierarchy that is not always present outside of the classroom. Language is all about the context in which it is used and the understanding that exists between its speakers.
They need to wake up and smell the coffee. Korea does not have a large enough native speaker community, too few opportunities to use it outside of the classroom, to consider it a second language in Korea. English is a foreign language in Korea, just as is Japanese and Chinese. A few words on signs and the presence of a great number of English loan-words and expressions does not make it a second language (besides, English loan-words and expressions in Korean, whether they were borrowed from Japanese or directly taken from English, have become Koreanized as they are used by Korean speakers to answer a linguistic need that is very much their own. Consequently, these words and expressions don’t always have the same meaning or connotation (let alone pronunciation) as they would in English–if any at all.)
Teaching other subjects in English (and thus having English textbooks) would be in the right direction.
The problem with English education in Korea is that too much emphasis is placed on speaking with a mid-western accent. If your accent is good, your English is good! Which is totally bullshit.
In reality, what the Koreans need most are skills in reading and writing. These are the skills that really matter when it comes to national competitiveness.
Most of the seminal papers that tech start-ups need are in English. Same with patents. Application notes are, most of the time, in English too. They don’t need the fancy twang to be able to figure out how to use the peripherals of an ARM microprocessor, right?
In communications, writing would suffice most of the time. Korea has something like 14 hours or more of time difference with the States. And to insist on talking with the Americans for business purposes would mean staying at the office until 11pm. Writing would be more convenient. I’ve closed supply and consultancy deals with some American companies using only emails.
Koreans really do not need the native speakers. Koreans just have to do it on their own.
- Teach other subjects in English, starting in the first grade so that middle school students would already be reading Shakespeare
- refrain from providing Korean subtitles to English movies
- refrain from dubbing the National Geographic
- Provide unrestrained access to ESPN, HBO, Discovery, BBC, CNN…
And Koreans have to realize that the English language is evolving fast. With the sun setting on the American empire, maybe 50 years from now, American English will just be like British English…
Correction…to consider English a second language here.
someguyinkorea:
Did you miss out that his whole argument was based on an appeal to linguistic pride? Don’t you know that Korean is the “most scientific language in the world”?
Looking at it again, I can see how you might have taken the quote the way you did, but given the overall tone of his comments, it deosn’t seem like a necessary reading of it. (And throwing in that bit about Korean being the most scientific language in a way that makes it look as if he said it in the article in question is a tad misrepresenting on your part).
I agree with you that immersion won’t work here because the environment doesn’t provide the necessary support for the L2 in question. My point, though, was more simply in agreement with the argument that learners, especially those with limited ability, learn less content in a second language than in their first. In fact, I would say that this is a more important reason for not doing this. It’s a big part of why Turkey moved away from its experiment with immersion, in the form proposed by LMB, in the 1990s.
My gut tells me that said article is just a strawman for ppl to beat like a submissive housewife.
# 11,
It may very well be that the ajomma (incorrectly) thinks that “lie-tah” is a Korean word and that “lighter” is the INCORRECT waeguk way of pronouncing a “Korean” word. I was at a Korean bar in Koreatown and I asked for a “rum and coke” and got a puzzled look from my waitress’s face. So I said, “ruh-um and-du coke-coh” and she immediately understood!
Perhaps this type of bs is the reason why LMB should push forward with the English Education plan.
http://sports.donga.com/bbs/sp.....&code=
Perhaps the world should leave Korean to Koreans. Screw English! English never helped Singapore or Hong Kong! I’m sure #10 would agree with that. Please #10 never leave this place. The world doesn’t need anymore Korean gangs started outside of Korea.
With the exception of Jamaica, every English speaking country has a higher per capita GDP then Korea’s.
Don’t know what that means, it’s just an observation…
WangKon936, it’s because the semi-rigid Confucianism and the rather flexible way that it’s deployed to suit the morality du jour…
Napolean called the English “shopkeepers”. To a certain extent that’s true–commerce is highly prized. Individualism leads to competition, which promotes Capitalism. Group-think produces whingey “lotus-eaters”.
Even if that were true (which it isn’t — see South Africa with its per capita income of US$13,000), every German speaking country (not counting Namibia) has a higher GNP per capita, too.
Hey, I know! Let’s see who can find the English-speaking country with the lowest GDP per capita. I call Zimbabwe ($500)!
I’d be curious to see the GDP of just the English speaking Afrikaner population…
Anyways, interesting point. But German is German, French is French and neither is quite the international language of commerce and finance that English has become. Btw… a majority of Germans speak English.
so basically ya’ll are arguing about what determines a nations economic success with relation to English. India might as well be considered an English speaking nation, and only now is it starting to do them any favors with regards to outsourcing. has this been the case in the Philippines yet? Why would IBM chose to house it’s call centers in Mumbai over Manila?
all the stats in the world won’t help this argument. it comes down to social Darwinism. Korea, as much as we all like to slag it, has become the 12 largest economy in the world because of Confucian values and a little help from Uncle Sam. Koreans work their asses off despite lacking in so many things.
As a teacher who has taught middle school kids in the US and Korea, I can honestly say that 50% of the kids I teach here can write English as a second language better than 50% of the students I had in the US. I also disagree with one of the above posters assumption that students don’t grasp creative/abstract concepts. That is a popular misconception that was probably true ten years ago before the internet took over. Whatever these kids were lacking in creative outlets back then has been made up for in cyber space.
Korea’s demographics are in for a rough ride in ten years time, but I’m fairly confident in this next generation of kids, who will be more open,creative, and able to deal with the future. Korea has huge generation gaps and this one will also be big. I think Korea will be a bright spot in the future of Asia.
Seems like the Head of Lee’s transition team has already lost her marbles!
The new government plans to spend approximately 4 trillion won (about $4.2 billion) over the next five years, with the objective of making Korea the best English-speaking country in Asia within a decade, presidential transition team Chairwoman Lee Kyung-sook said Wednesday.
Remember our business plan, everyone:
Underpants —> ? —> Profit!
Korea needs to focus on Korean-language education, not English, because English is just too difficult for the average Korean to learn, and many Koreans have a difficult enough time communicating clearly in their own language.
Korea needs professionals in variety of fields, and it is just too difficult to become a professional in your chosen field and be a fluent English speaker at the same time. The two languages are just too different from each other.
Also, in my opinion, the Korean language still has a lot of structual and lexical problems that need to be sorted out, and there are all kinds of archaic expressions that many Koreans do not really understand and should probably not be forced to learn. For example, there are many old Chinese-based expressions (고사성어) being taught in schools that make Korean unnecessarily difficult and do not fit in well with Korean language structure.
The Korean government should stop worrying about English and focus on streamlining the Korean language.
ROTFLMWAO!
#19
That’s my point, she obviously thought “lighter” was a Korean word and I was the one mispronouncing it, and that’s what pisses me off about the whole Korean push to learn English–
There are so many English words that are a part of the (south) Korean language as we all well know, but many Koreans don’t have a clue. As a teacher teaching a lot of these Koreans, it really bothers me when they are so concerned about learning pronunciation with a “mid-western” accent but then they correct MY pronunciation when I say words like “lighter”, or “computer” nor they can say any word ending with “ge” or starting with “z” to save their life. I’d love to see a Korean tourist go and try to find the zoo in the Middle East using their Konglish.
I’m all for Koreans teaching other Koreans English grammar rules. Trying to teach a bunch of new learners these concepts without being able to explain it in a language they understand is next to impossible, but when it comes to even a passable pronunciation, many (not all) Korean teachers are as useless as the students. It may as well be a different language, in fact it is– it’s called Konglish.
“Looking at it again, I can see how you might have taken the quote the way you did, but given the overall tone of his comments, it deosn’t “seem like a necessary reading of it. (And throwing in that bit about Korean being the most scientific language in a way that makes it look as if he said it in the article in question is a tad misrepresenting on your part).”
Actually, my tongue was strongly pressed against my cheek when I wrote that.
“I agree with you that immersion won’t work here because the environment doesn’t provide the necessary support for the L2 in question. My point, though, was more simply in agreement with the argument that learners, especially those with limited ability, learn less content in a second language than in their first.”
Yes, another very good reason to reconsider English immersion. It’s simply not for everyone. The students who have enough difficulty as it is following the rest of the class in Korean will struggle if the lessons are now taught in English. That is probably the main reason (after politics) that immersion classes are just optional in Canada.
Or rather, my tongue was pressed into my cheek. I’m no Gene Simmons.
Learning a foreign language is difficult enough, especially one that employs an entirely different alphabet. What really boggles my mind is the foisting of the IPA upon hapless kindergarteners who probably think that there is one set of ABCs and then another that is on drugs.
“There are so many English words that are a part of the (south) Korean language as we all well know, but many Koreans don’t have a clue.”
Just remember that sentence next time you’re sipping coca-cola and munching potato chips while sitting on your sofa in your pajamas with your feet resting on the ottoman.
Korean is not a “scientific language,” but people argue that the “Korean alphabet” (Hangeul) is scientific.
By the way, I wonder how many people know why the letters of the Korean alphabet are written as two syllables instead of just one? For example, does anyone know why ㄱ is called 기역 instead of just 기?
Dear Gerry,
I remember a long time ago reading about how the shape of the Hangul letters were based on the shape of the throat/tongue when the letters are pronounced, but I don’t know the answer to your question. I’ll bite - why are the letters’ names like that? And why are they always beginning with and ending with the same consanant?
Thanks
Cactus,
They are written that way to show that the consonant can come both before the vowel in the syllable and after it.
The pronunciation of hangul letter names demonstrates the difference in pronunciation of consonants if they come before or after a vowel. Some of the distinctions can be hard for non-natives (like me) to hear, but there is a difference in how they are pronounced depending on whether they are the initial or final sound in a syllable. There are also more changes when the consonants are between syllables, but that’s even more interesting. Zzzzz….
#27 - IBM Daksh operates in Manila as well.
I actually find Hangul very interesting. I learned it quickly on my own even before I first set foot in Korea. It’s like learning logic: the rules are simple but the combination is intriguing.
Sigh! How I wish my Hangul speaking ability is at least half my ability to read and write it…
#27,
The answers are:
1. Cost (you pay half in India for what it will cost in the Philippines…at least some time ago, which isn’t the case today)
2. Political stability
3. Labor supply
The tide is changing, though. As for Korea, with LMB at the helm, I can only see a brighter future for this country.
…that is, as long as he doesn’t screw up or learn to kiss ass.
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