This is fucked up — meet Mark Thomas, a Briton who next month will graduate from the English education department of Hanguk University of Foreign Studies. The Hankyoreh reports that Thomas — who has completed his practicals and will become the first foreigner to graduate from a Korean teaching program — spotted an ad on the Seoul Department of Education homepage last December looking for native speaking English teachers. He applied, even taking an interview.
For Christmas, he returned to Britain full of hope. Then came the news. Seoul Department of Education told him he fulfilled the requirements to become a teacher, but — sit down for this — the Immigration Bureau would NOT give him a visa.
Why, you ask?
Because current E-2 regulations state that you must have graduated from a university in an English-speaking nation to be eligible for a visa. Poor Mr. Thomas, however, attended university in Korea.
As Thomas rightly pointed out, had he attended university overseas, he could have obtained an E-2 visa regardless of his major, but since he studied in Korea, he could not get a visa, despite majoring in English education.
Thomas came to Korea in 2002 after meeting some Korean exchange students at his church in southern England. He studied Korean at HUFS’ Korean program for two years, and then entered the university proper in 2004. He’s currently in Korea, or at least until the end of February, when his visa expires. He said he’d get another job in Korea for now, but he’d continue to work to achieve his goal of becoming a teacher.
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Interesting.. I had a coworker from the States a couple years back who was denied a visa because he received his undergraduate and masters degrees overseas. I thought for sure there would be an exemption for Korea. This doesn’t show much faith in their level of higher education.
This is not a new regulation, but I agree that it can seem odd. The government’s take on it is that university-level education done in countries where English is natively spoken provides students with a higher quality of English skills. In my view, education is rather what the individual makes of it, but that is their policy nonetheless.
That is whack, but not surprising. Even in my own personal experience it seems that the government officials are becoming very anal with visas, and this is hardly a time to ask for leniency. I usually enter Korea on C4 visas, and out of the 6 I have had none have awarded me less than 45 days, and most have been 60 or 90. This time around they only gave me the exact dates stated on my contract, a total of 30 days, even though I requested 60.
In any case, this guy probably speaks decent Korean and probably has a decent network of Korean people to help him out. Someone will figure out how to bend things for him and hopefully he will end up doing something more interesting and rewarding than teaching.
Yet another example of Korean logic. It’s a classic and not all surprising. This type of thing doesn’t even faze me anymore. I just had a knock on the door by 5 police officers who came to arrest my wife because she had $500 of delinquent credit card bills, yet some dude who commits millions of dollars of fraud gets off scott-free.
Seems to me using those 5 officers to write a couple of tickets (or even arrest) to taxi drivers who run red lights would be a better use of police resources, not to mention make them a lot more money, than being stormtroopers for the banks.
Actions speak volumes. What this guy did says alot about his motivation and desire to do what’s right. I’m sure that any institute that takes it upon itself to hire him would benefit immeasureably. It’s too bad the beaureacrats here have brick walls beyond the doors where their imaginations should reside.
Heh, “the hub of Asia”, yeah…. *snort*
It’s completely ridiculous, but I can kinda-sorta understand the logic. As an E-7 visa holder, my company has to show (through letters and notarizations, etc) that they couldn’t find a Korean capable of doing my job. Since an E-2 is also an ‘E’ visa, I wonder if what immigration is thinking is along these same lines since he has the same degree as all his (supposedly Korean) classmates.
However, as has been posted here by others, yes, it’s still ridiculous.
I meant to say ‘presumably’ Korean classmates instead of ’supposedly.’
I love all the rationalization in the above posts. Marmot basically summed up the situation by asking rhetorically, “how fucked up is…” ’nuff said.
(Although, I do want to record my official opposition to the use of such potty language on this blog. Robert! Children could be reading this!!)
#1 “This doesn’t show much faith in their level of higher education.”
I chuckle to myself, when I come across a foreigner here that gets a so-called “Master’s Degree” in Korea. Oh my…. LOL!…I am laughing just thinking about it.
#10 and #11. What’s wrong with a Master’s degree from a Korean university?
A degree is what you put in to get it, not from where it came from. Isn’t that right?
Where did President Bush go to school? Don’t you chuckle to yourself knowing that THAT school let HIM in?
More of an oversight or, as Maddlew says, a lack of imagination; one that can be attributed to that all-to-common tunnel vision. Only Koreans do things in Korea and foreigners do things in foreignerland. Betcha it didn’t dawn on the policy makers that a situation such as Mr. Thomas’s would occur. But are policies here (or anywhere) written to include the onesy-twosy exceptions? Or maybe the policy makers know better than I and that degree from HUFS really doesn’t count for much.
#13. Sorry to offend, but I think there should be more to education than self-motivation. A certain amount of external standards — professors with principles, good libraries, challenging classmates, free-thinking atmosphere, etc — are necessary as well.
And yes, American standards have slipped.
It’s pretty obvious that the regulation was written by people who never imagined a white person graduating from a Korean university. And certainly not trying to work in a hagwon or GEPIK afterwards.
It’s pretty obvious that the regulation was written by people who never imagined a white person graduating from a Korean university. And certainly not trying to work in a hagwon or GEPIK afterwards. So while it is ridiculous, the person who had to personally reject probably thinks so, too, but has hands tied by the letter of the law.
So, he never graduated from a university in the U.K. at all?
I’d like to see a (non-Korean) Westerner who happens to have decent Korean skills enroll in a Korean university as an undergrad – and then blow through as an English major with better English skills than the Korean English professors…
Anyone know if this happens?
#11,
Right. Some programs are better organized and more demanding than other, but in the end grad school really about what you put into it since, unlike in undergrad school, you are expected to work with a certain degree of independence. I was basically giving money to my university so that I’d know what books to read and what papers to write.
18. “I was basically giving money to my university so that I’d know what books to read and what papers to write.”
For sure, that is indeed a graduate degree in Korea! You bought it. Do you think that is the way it is in the US, Canada, England, etc?
The first non-Korean with a Korean education degree? No, Stephen Revere has a Masters in Korean Education from Sogang. And there was a Japanese guy who did the same program before him.
From Gbevers blog:
Stephen Revere is one of the hosts of the Arirang TV program, “Let’s Speak Korean,” Besides being a TV celebrity here in Korea, Stephen has made a name for himself by being the first foreigner (white foreigner?) to receive a master’s degree in “Korean Language Education” in Korea. Actually, I think his degree was in “Teaching Korean as a Second Language.”
Besides, it kind of makes sense. An American who does a degree in France in French shouldn’t be able to get a visa here purely because they are American.
#19,
Actually, I attended one of the top universities in the UK.
…probably top 5 in the world for my field of study.
#20,
Right. I know a couple of Korean-Americans who have degrees in education from Korean universities.
To add to #22,
I get the feeling you didn’t attend grad school if you don’t know what it involves.
#22. Right, sorry, the British grad schools are indeed self-driven–almost fetishistic.
Perhaps though we shouldn’t be using that as a yardstick for the Korean — American style– grad schools…
#25. I did, and I know.
#21 Me agrees. Quebecois beware!
Isn’t this much ado about nothing since they will be allowing people who have degrees from countries in the “periphery of English” to get E2 visas?
I think I was being a bit hasty. After absorbing the whole thing more thoroughly I think that beaureacrats everywhere suffer from a lack of decision making ability. In the States it would be rare and perhaps detrimental to one’s job security to bend the rules for an individual. It happens, but too seldom. It is probably more rare here. Conformity in the population as a whole is strong, but within governmental agencies it is overwhelming.
I can also safely say that the States has authored quite a few f’d up laws and regulations.
#27,
Quebecois? Where?
PS. In case you haven’t guessed, I’m not a Quebecois.
30. I was talking to the venerable MrMao.
A few comments. First, a good expat friend of mine got his bachelors in English and an MS in Korean linguistics from a top Korean university and was also barred from teaching English b/c of the same visa rules. He was made to understand that the visa rules were made to stop Korean-Americans/Canandians/etc. who immigrated as middle/high school students and then returned to Korea for college from getting these jobs since most of them are far from fluent English speakers. Given that they now have a different visa status for Korean-Americans I don’t know how good the logic still is.
Second, I recently audited a grad social science class at Korea University in Korean and found it to be not that different in reading load/discussion from my classes at a top US school (and if you think your Korean is good, try sitting in on a grad class – I have new found respect for my non-native english speaking colleagues. Being socially fluent and being able to discuss academic topics intelligently are very different things indeed.) Also, the profs in regular social science depts I know generally look down on the GSIS departments b/c the quality of the instruction is so low. They see GSIS as a money-maker/prestige builder for the university and little else.
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