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Marmot’s Open Thread #34
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on January 19, 2008 at 12:40 pm, filed under South Korea. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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60 Comments
I just saw Cloverfield. Great movie with originality and thrills, but horrendously motion-sickness inducing. I almost threw up, and definitely heard few people in the theater throwing up.
This is an interesting story on how culture shapes the hardwiring of the brain:
http://www.livescience.com/hea.....brain.html
As long as we’re plugging content, I recommend The Trap, a 3-part BBC special. Not a documentary or even an expose, it’s more like a thesis in video form, covering and connecting game theory, the cold war, modern psychiatry, the principles of free markets, focus-group politics and more. A bit conspiratorial at times but very interesting. Found here on mininova:
http://www.mininova.org/search.....c+the+trap
I saw “Sweeney Todd”. Helena Bonham Carter’s character was essentially the same as in “Fight Club”. Tired, goth, slutty .
Keeping with the theme the new - and last - season of The Wire began a few weeks ago. Available on mininova too.
Some interesting comments regarding Cloverfield over at Rotten Tomatoes. A few examples:
Yeah thanks. From what I saw on TV and hear on the blogs, I will pass.
Even “I am legend” wasn’t all that good.
Wish the movie was playing here, so instead I have to amuse myself by giving the product pushing girls at Homever, HomePlus, and Emart a hard time. I pick up a product they aren’t pushing–that I actually want. They rush over to spew their nonsense about how much better their products are. I put the product I really want back on the shelf. They hand me theirs. I walk half-way down the aisle before returning, putting their product back on the shelf, and leaving with what I really wanted to buy in the first place as they look on in horror by “my” choice.
Why can’t they let me shop in peace here in South Korea? I can’t even window shop or browse without someone rushing up to give me a hard sell.
I am Legend sucks! I mean, the actor was good, the first half was okay, but when the second half started to unravel, my disappointment started to creep in. Not even close to the original ending of the novel I read years ago!
I guess that’s what you get when you let someone like Will Smith to do the honors, he always comes out the hero.
If you read the Wikipedia article on it, you’ll see that the ending was completely changed at that last minute.
Without spoiling it, the original ending would have been much more consistent and the Zombies’ behaviour would have made much more sense had the producers stuck to their guns. Unfortunately, the new ending simply ruins what could have been one of Will Smith’s best movies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_legend
Wrong link, sorry. Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....%28film%29
Sonagi,
Thanks for the Science link. It is always a pleasure to read your comments.
About the article: I would like to read similar research by, say, Malawi researchers, because from lines in a square to cultural values, it seems to me there is a hell of a stretch and cross-cultural projections going on. (Of course, I have no reason to doubt the facts themselves.)
I share the disappointment in the last act of I Am Legend. It would have been brilliantly ballsy to have something akin to the book’s ending in a big budget action film.
I was also annoyed at how they all had to be just like the super vampires from Blade II, but ehn… Hollywood.
Don’t get me wrong. Cloverfield was a GREAT movie… just… don’t watch it on a big screen because it will make you puke from motion sickness. Wait for the Blu-Ray (apparently they won the stand-off) release X-D.
Because they named the movie (I am Legend) after the original book, I was actually expecting the ending that the alternative ending in that article was expressing. Needless to say that I was severely disappointed by how they ended the movie.
It’s official: Rap music is crap.
Just kidding, of course. But interesting nevertheless.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....6674.shtml
I hear ya John. When ever a salesperson starts rushing me, I rush for the door. If I want ‘your’ help, I’ll ask for it. Otherwise, let me shop in peace.
If I’m feeling particularly vindictive, I’ll go to the shop next door and buy the same product they were trying to push in full view of the salesperson so that they know that they lost a sale because they were pushy, although I’m sure the irony is lost on them. Makes ME feel better though…
Well, it helps that some of the product pushing girls aren’t half bad looking in those snazzy body hugging pea green colored outfits.
@#11:
I am less skeptical because I have read extensive research comparing and contrasting how bilingual and monolingual brains process different languages. From the research, it is clear that bilingual brains think differently. They are more plastic (altering wiring in response to stimuli) and less lateralized. Research into the brain and language also shows that the nature of the language itself determines how the brain processes it. Readers of languages with transparent orthographies (regular spelling) use the left hemisphere more while readers of languages with opaque orthographies, like English, rely on the right hemisphere.
Seeing how a particular language itself and fluency in two or more languages rewires the brain, I am more open to the possibility that culture rewires the brain, too, especially since language and culture are intertwined.
Okay, left-wing loons. question for you:
What are you making out of the ex-president and backbone of the democratic party over the past 16 years claiming its new golden boy is using voter intimidation out there in nevada with the latinos?
I guess it’s all media creation because it’s the democratic party and not the republican party.
#17,
Anyone who is fully bilingual could have told you that.
Par example, I peux easily construire a sentence avec des words qui alternates du French to l’anglais.
You should see me do this while I’m talking. It’s quite a neat trick, I’d say.
What you’re describing in #19 is mere code-switching. Anyone who speaks a foreign language can do that. “Bilateralism” means that both hemispheres of the brain are used more actively, rather than a strong left or right dominance. Below is a link to one example of the growing MRI-based research into the brain and learning:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/si.....stractPlus
As a bilingual speaker and father of a bilingual child, you might be interested in this:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9304.html
And this:
http://jocn.mitpress.org/cgi/c.....t/17/3/422
Lest my comment get stuck in the spam trap, I won’t post any more links, but there is some amazing new research into the brain, learning, language, and mathematical thinking which new MRI technologies have made possible. It used to be thought that second languages acquired in childhood were lateralized into the left hemisphere near the first language and that languages learned later were lateralized into the right hemisphere. Some research suggests that it is fluency, not age of acquisition, that detemines lateralization, i.e., the more fluent you are in a language the less you need to rely on the cognitive functions of the right hemisphere to recall and apply learned vocabulary and rules of grammar.
Looks like the links got my comment caught in a spam trap, so I’ll try again.
What you’re describing in #11, someguy, is mere code-switching, a trick that can be done by anybody who knows a foreign language. Bilateralism means using parts in both halves of the brain to carry out a function. Bilinguals use different parts of the brain when speaking or reading, compared to monolingual speakers of the same language.
It used to be thought that a second language acquired in childhood was lateralized into the left hemisphere near the first language and that languages learned later used the right hemisphere. Recent research using new MRI technologies and involving bilinguals and monolinguals in a variety of languages suggests that it is fluency, not age of acquisition, that determines lateralization. That is, fluent speakers of a language have less need to use the cognitive functions of the right hemisphere to recall and apply learned vocabulary and grammar rules.
Nice link Sonagi.
“There’s a hint that six months in a culture already changes you,” he said, referring to psychological, rather than neurological, research.
In other words, expats in Korea may be more Korean than they think.
The cashiers at the shops in Atlanta’s airport say “next guest” to waiting cutomers. Is that a new thing or a Southern thing, or both?
If you want peace and quiet, to be left completely alone in a Korean commercial setting, the place to be is a restaurant. After your initial order is placed, you’ll most likely never see the server again.
H&D, southerners are pretty nice — even the ones working in the airport in Atlanta — but the “next customer” smacks of HR training.
Was at Incheon Airport Saturday morning at about 5:30, needing a taxi to a hotel that was about 1/4 mile away. After being refused by most of the drivers and referred to the same taxi, who insisted that I must pay 만원, I called all 3 police and gov’t numbers on the signs right next to the taxi stands. (In English, the signs give 3 different numbers to call if the taxi drivers refuse to give a ride, refuse to use a meter, etc. Ironically, the signs didn’t give similar information in Korean.) I called them all, and no answer (too early?) Airport information desk offered no help, so I went to argue with them again, and lost. Recorded the license plate numbers of one cab, deliberately making sure the driver knew what I was doing. Didn’t seem to bother him, he was smiling. Few minutes later, and after going up and down the line of taxis again, I got a phone call from a friend waiting for me. When the cabbie whose plates I’d recorded earlier saw me answering a call, he very quickly flung his door open and said, “OK OK METER METER!!”
I called the Incheon Airport Police today using the number on the airport taxi page. The guy I talked to literally laughed outloud at the situation. While laughing, he told me that they watch for this kind of crap, but that they haven’t seen any such behavior from the cabbies. And, again, laughing, he assured they’d check up on the cabbie whose plates I’d recorded and make sure that this kind of activity doesn’t happen in the future. I’m actually laughing now too.
The cabbies at the airport are scum that should be banned from the place.
If you try to get a cab after about 10:30PM at Incheon, you’re screwed. All that’s left is the scalpers, like cmm posted. Apparently arriving too early in the morning doesn’t help much either.
I’ve learned the hard way and now try to book flights that will get me to Incheon no later than 8:30PM (allowing two hours to get through baggage, immigration and customs).
The Airport Police laughing about the situation is quite revealing.
The way to handle these wankers is to go to the drop-off area and catch a cab that has just dropped someone off. They’ll be happy to take you to a place nearby before going back in line.
That said, is there no short-distance taxi line like the one they added at Kimpo a few years ago?
#27: “allowing two hours to get through baggage, immigration and customs”
Since when do you need more than a 1/2 hour for this?
#27 I’m not making this up, it happened to me last January and May. If two flights come in close to each other and both are loaded, immigration alone can take quite a while.
On a positive note, if it takes you where you need to go, the new train connection (down a couple of levels at Incheon is a great way to avoid cab hassles altogether.
http://www.arex.or.kr/jsp/eng/main.jsp
Just acquaint yourself with the timetables and plan ahead to assure that the Seoul subway will still be running to get you to your final destination.
No, and I doubt it will be set up considering the economics of it. There are lots of people going to Kangseo, Mokdong, Banghwa, etc from Kimpo Airport, and after dropping off a passenger at Kangseo, for instance, there is a high probability of picking up a passenger going to let’s say, Kangnam which more or less works out well for the Seoul based cabbie.
But from Incheon, short range passengers are somewhat rare and it’s also rare for the cabbie to pick up a passenger going to Seoul after dropping off that short range passenger.
I have been recently asked “Want taekshi?” one time too many by an illegal cabbie. I went into rage mode, grabbed him, and had Airport people call the police. I had the pleasure to visit IIA’s police station – where a cop was smoking in a clear disregard of the law – and was allowed to file a complaint against the cabbie. I lost an hour, but it was a very satisfying moment. I know that the guy was “back to work” the next day, but anyway…
When I told the cop “And I read in the papers some months ago that the police had cleaned up the airport from illegal taxis, what kind of BS is that?”; he answered: “It’s happening in other countries too.” Duh.
I take one of KAL’s Limousine buses, or the Limousine bus going to City Air Terminal in Kangnam, depending on the hotel I’ve booked, and they’re pretty fast and cheap.
As for immigration and customs clearance, the longest it ever took me was under an hour — and I tend to arrive at IIA at any possible hour — but the fastest, from the door of the plane to the limousine bus, was 15 minutes.
IIA could use a channel for regular visitors like at Hong Kong. And of course, counters for residents, separate from tourists…
#33 “he answered: “It’s happening in other countries too.” Duh.”
The situation at Ninoy Aquino IAP in Manila has actually improved since the government set up controls at the cab stops a few years ago. If the PI can tackle a problem, what is Korea’s excuse.
“other countries” now, there’s a great justification for the status quo! 2MB take note: if you want people to get a good first impression of sparkling Korea, clean up the mess at Incheon!
Practically speaking, I’m taking the train whenever I can and recommend it to others.
Yup. Taking a bus from the airport is a lot cheaper and better than taking a cab. Less headache too.
Couldn’t you have simply said, “Non, merci”?
Despite the French flag near his moniker I believe that dda is Chinese and a resident of Hong Kong.
#7, #16
I thought that this would apply here. I wonder how you would same some of these things in Korean. I did the first one in the states, but I’m afraid of being in the news for doing #13…you know, “Foreigner asks ajumma to pick him.”
1. June 15: Took 24 boxes of condoms and randomly put them in people’s carts when they weren’t looking.
2. July 2: Set all the alarm clocks in Housewares to go off at 5- minute intervals.
3. July 7: Made a trail of tomato juice on the floor leading to the women’s restroom.
4. July 19: Walked up to an employee and told her in an official voice, ‘Code 3 in Housewares. Get on it right away.’
5. August 4: Went to the Service Desk and tried to put a bag of M&M’s on layaway.
6. September 14: Moved a ‘CAUTION - WET FLOOR’ sign to a carpeted area.
7. September 15: Set up a tent in the camping department and told other shoppers he’d invite them in if they would bring pillows and blankets from the bedding department.
8. September 23: When a clerk asked if they could help him he began crying and screamed, ‘Why can’t you people just leave me alone?’
9. October 4: Looked right into the security camera and used it as a mirror while he picked his nose.
10. November 10: While handling guns in the hunting department, he asked the clerk where the antidepressants were.
11. December 3: Darted around the store suspiciously while loudly humming the ‘ Mission Impossible’ theme.
12. December 6: In the auto department, he practiced his ‘Madonna look’ by using different sizes of funnels.
13. December 18: Hid in a clothing rack and when people browsed through, yelled ‘PICK ME! PICK ME!’
14. December 21: When an announcement came over the loud speaker, he assumed a fetal position and screamed ‘OH NO! IT’S THOSE VOICES AGAIN!’ And last, but not least . .
15. December 23: Went into a fitting room, shut the door, waited awhile, then yelled very loudly, ‘Hey! There’s no toilet paper in here!’
@dda: I’m wondering how your experience with Hong Kong cabbies has been like. I’ve moved from Seoul->HK->SG, and I’ve come to conclusion that HK has the loudest, most unpleasant taxi drivers in the world.
Of course, it might just have been a foreigner thing.
Can’t answer for @dda.
I only spent a week in Hong Kong last year, so I can offer a limited, qualified opinion especially since I was always in the company of friends when riding a taxi.
My experience with HK cabbies was way better than what I’ve gone through in Korea. If I’d stayed there longer, I might feel like zzoo does about them, though.
I’ve ridden cabs all over the States, Germany, France, Spain (frightening), Turkey and the Philippines. IMHO, nowhere but the RoK will you find such a unique combination of rude, xenophobic, thieving, and dangerous cabbies.
Spanish cabbies are fast and scary, but at least they aren’t unpleasant.
Overall, I thought that the Seoul city government could learn a lot from HK.
As I said, it was one time too many. Besides, speaking French doesn’t really help. Or English. Last Tuesday, being in less foul of a mood, I just tried to ignore the dude following me, then used English to tell him no, then, seeing that didn’t work either, warned him in Korean that it was safer to let it go now. Worked like a charm.
First of all there are basically three kinds of cabs and cabbies in ole HK:
HK cabbies are, like in Seoul, diverse and range from polite to rude, but most are kind of loud, not because they are cabbies, but because they are Chinese.
Also, anyone who’s been in a red cab more than once and paid attention will have noticed that these guys have 3 or 4 mobile phones [theirs and those of colleagues who are off-duty] plus a radio, usually all on at the same time, and connected together via Bluetooth + wires. It’s an impressive sight, something like a space shuttle comms desk, albeit the made in a Shenzhen backyard variety… They pick up fares through these numerous lifelines, chat with colleagues and pals, and placate Mamma’s requests to make more money and come home in time for dinner.
Most of them have very little command of English. The farther you go from Central, the higher the chances you’ll need the address in Chinese or an interpreter. Outlying areas like the New Territories and Lantau are of course the worst. I once took a cab whose driver didn’t know what the words Queen’s Road meant. Seriously. And it was a cab I caught on Austin Road, downtown.
I have seen very nice guys [very few wimin in that biz] and everything from silent to slightly rude, but I have yet to see an asshole like some of the guys I’ve seen in Korea. Then again, I take blue cabs from/to the airport, driven by simple, rustic guys who’re happy to take me there and rush to the next fare. I have seen a few illegal cabs at IIA — they’re hard to miss, and they are just the same as the Korean ones. Most cabbies I used in long-distance rides, reds and blues, usually offered me their business card with a discount offer for future rides. Discounts are in the 20-30% range, which is something I’ve never had in Korea… You call them, any time, they show up, or a colleague if they are off duty, and they take you wherever you want to go, sans “call charge” and with a discount. What’s not to like? There are gazillions of cabs, and I’ve never had to wait long for a cab — which is not something I can say for Korea or Singapore.
I am sure the dudes working the airport have fine assholes in their midst, but overall on a scale of 1 to 10, I’d give them a 9 for service, a 7 for average comfort and cleanliness [the blues are usually kinda old], and a 6 for safe driving…
dda is very French, living in Hong Kong, and traveling a lot in Asia.
Also, on the subject of Singapore cabs, Singapore has, I believe, a special court for tourists to go to in case they’ve been ripped off, with a very typical Singaporean swiftness in its functioning. I seem to remember that this court makes decisions on complaints filed with them within 24 hours. And Singapore being Singapore, the decisions are usually heavy-handed. A local friend told me that a cab caught cheating a customer would lose his license. Period.
Sonagi,
We agree that it is likely that there are quantitative links between culture and language, observable in the brain activity, but this particular article you linked to fails, in my opinion, to support such connections, and instead serves stereotypical cultural interpretations.
I mean, saying “East Asians think in context.” (from the paper) or “Westerners are individualists (meaning East Asians are not).” I can think of endless counter-examples in Koreans and Americans I know… Reality is colourful.
These are just some of numerous deceiving cultural tactics (often self-deceiving), which used to be systemitised sometimes as occidentalism and orientalism (nowadays things are more complex). That is why I do think that the cultural bias of the researcher must be taken into account in studies which aims at quantifying cultural traits. Well, I guess this is the usual caveat of anthropology.
There are so many projections bouncing forth and back between the West and the East, so many mirror games becoming kaleidoscopes, that one must be very cautious, otherwise knowledge is mistaken for complex ignorance.
Please keep posting.
#44: It’s too bad you can never get one of those cabs unless you make a phone call for one. Not the most tourist-friendly situation.
#46, indeed, but it’s resident-friendly. Then again, when have you seen cabbies giving away discount like it’s a Gawd-given right?
It’s definitely bewildering and frustrating for a Seoul resident to be stuck somewhere in Singapore trying to catch a cab, especially in the CBD. And doubly so at an international hotel. One could die of old age.
But I found that greasing the doorman of my hotel for just S$10 a day (S$20 the first day before I wised up) would ensure that all those other suckers got to stand in line while I hopped into the first cab that drifted by, no reservation and no waiting. Money well spent.
@dda: Thanks for your detailed response! Maybe the taxi situation in HK got better since I left there 2.5 years ago, or maybe I was just plain unlucky during my stay there. It wasn’t just that the taxi drivers were unpleasant; they scared the shit out of me, with their speed-of-light driving and their constant communications with their buddies that almost turned me deaf.
ZZOOzzoo, I am probably immunised by now
This what the researchers actually said:
The study also explained that:
The first paragraph does not say that all or even most Americans or Koreans think this or that way. It describes general cultural values that are shared to various degrees by members of those cultures, as explained in the second paragraph. It noted individual variations within each culture and linked the degree of identification with the native culture’s prevailing values with the outcomes of the experiment.
I agree that we must be careful not to stereotype. Science tells us that there is more variation within a group than between groups. Moreover, cultural values are shaped not only by nationality but also local and socioeconomic conditions. This study simply looked for evidence that cultural values are wired in the brain.
is the blog bringing in enough money to make this a permanent address?
Next guest!
There haven’t been any conspiracy theories here lately.
Maybe if we consider what Brendon was warning cinegauche about, we might be able to get some insight into why cg’s not been around to post his enlightened info.
Perhaps the same gov’t/illuminati/treadstone/blackbriar group that crashed planes into the WTC and launched a missile into the Pentagon finally found him and snuffed him out?
Sonagi,
I missed the point, thanks for correcting me.
Still, I am a tad skeptic about one thing: the influence of the culture of the researchers, just like in anthropology. It is my experience in Korea that Koreans I don’t know well do not answer questions about their culture the same way close Korean friends do. That is why I mentionned deceiving tactics, or public relations, if you prefer. When you get to know Koreans privately, you see how many differences there are in the way they think their culture and their relationship to it. But this is not the topic of the paper you referred to, just a rambling of mine.
And, yes, my sentence was meant as an encouragement! I have been reading your comments for years, since you started posting, and I like your style, tone and topics.
The internet culture, whatever it is, makes compliments sound like patronization or irony. How sad. How much do you identify with such culture? What is in your mind?
cmm#55 - cg was a thrill seeker. He took the time to become an expert in conventional 9/11 knowledge, and then an expert in subversive 9/11 cospiracy theory. He used the first as bait to entice a victim, then mockery to get the victim worked up and engaged in an extended battle.
From my reading, he always won, because no one was willing to put in the research time to continue answering his bottomless supply of links to subversive theories. Whether he believed the conspiracy or not is immaterial - his phychosis was fed by the fight. 9/11 was a good topic for him, because it made his victims emotional; his tone never changed, always cold and derisive.
I bet he just moves from blog to blog, as any predator will move on to new hunting grounds when the supply of victims runs low.
He was an interesting phenomenon.
It’s not a matter of internet culture. It is simply context. If you have been reading my comments for years, then you know that I have disagreed on many occasions with other commenters and continue to post, so the encouragement, though well-intentioned, seemed unnecessary.
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