After interviewing 50 foreigners living in Korea, the Chosun reports that the actions of some Koreans can be considered “rude” if held up to a “global standard.” Put it simply, the Chosun article states that it is the result of some Koreans not recognizing and respecting other people who are “different”. It also recounts the experience of some of the interviewed foreigners.
First off is a Canadian English teacher who felt like “a monkey in a zoo” everytime he took a shower after working out in a local gym. The reason being that the other Korean males in the shower room always stared “with interest at the physical characteristics of his lower abdomen.” The next story involves a French woman who felt uncomfortable every time a Korean adult came up and patted her 7 year old daughter’s cheeks and head. The French woman adds that “she understands that it is a Korean tendency to pat a child but that she feels uncomfortable and wishes that the Koreans won’t do that.”
Another Canadian, a vegeterian, said that he eats home made sandwiches, because he got tired of dealing with Korean restruants. He recounted an experience of going into a restruant and ordering bibimpap without the beef and fried egg. But his order came with the beef and the egg. When he told a restruant employee about the beef and the egg, the employee said, “They forgot about it because they were busy and that it’s better with the beef and the egg. So, you should just eat it as it is.”
Another restruant experience involves a USFK soldier who went into a restruant and ordered pilaf without the egg. The order however came with the egg and the soldier did as he always did in the States and sent it back. However the restruant owner got angry kicked him out and after saying that he’s “bad luck” sprayed salt on the entrance. Needless to say the soldier wasn’t too happy with the experience.
All in all foreigners here take issue with the fact that Koreans do not respect the wishes of those who cannot eat certain foods because of their religion or other beliefs. An Australian vegeterian summed it up by saying “I wish Koreans recognize the fact that there are people who are different.”
As for bumping in public spaces, two Americans and a British citizen took issue with the tendency of Koreans to bump into them and move on without apologizing. The British citizen even added that a British guide book stated that “people should be careful in Korea because of the tendency of Koreans to bump into and elbow other people.”
The last experience involves an Australian whose coworkers asked him personal questions such as which school he graduated from, his marital status, etc. during his first dinner party. The Australian was very embarrassed at such personal questions being asked during a first meeting.
The article ends with some “global manners” that Koreans should take notice of. For the article, the Chosun included a picture of an American woman grimacing while selecting socks because of a Korean woman stretching her arm and pushing herself onto her.
The above article is getting a lot of attention in Naver with 2,757 comments so far.
{ 153 comments… read them below or add one }
OK, now I get annoyed from time to time because people do things that are rude in Korea, too. But “global manners?” WTF? OK, some of the suggestions were OK, but the stuff about 신체 접촉이 있을 때, 어린 아이를 대할 때, 식사할 때 and 초대 받은 자리에서 is pure bullshit. “프랑스의 일부 고급식당에선 입장시 휴대전화를 카운터가 맡아 보관한다?” Good for them. “한국식으로 내 수저로 집은 음식을 상대에게 권하거나, 설거지를 해주겠다고 남의 부엌에 들어가면 실례다.” Yeah, it would be IF this were the United States, which it ain’t.
I don’t like the vibe in the ROK.
A gyopo friend of mine, a male, describes Korea as the “land of rudeness.” Believe it or not, I for the most part disagree with him.
However, I don’t think there is a need to physically push people around. Not to mention the chronic problem of smoking in areas where it is prohibited.
I am about 240lbs (even heavier when bulking) and if I can walk down the street or through underground areas here in Seoul without bumping into or pushing people, so can the average Korean.
#1,
The hub of tu quoque arguments.
Several years ago, a group of well-intentioned freshmen gave a presentation on “foreign etiquette,” a hodge-podge of examples mostly relevant to North America. Afterwards, we had a chat about the diverse assortment of peoples known to Koreans as “foreigners.”
News articles like this are fodder for the comment section. I especially liked “힘있는 외국인에 사대하는 언론.” A number of other posts included the term “사대주의” in the title.
Some of the situations are pretty lame and SHOULD be seen as culture differences.
A Kenyan guy I met a few years ago would get very pissed off when Koreans would rap around him or do the yo, yo, yo thing.
The fact is, most foreigners feel like monkeys in a zoo a some point during their stay here.
I rarely if ever felt like a monkey in a zoo in Japan.
“foreign etiquette” really means “Western etiquette”. No such etiquettes for the Pakistanis and Nepalese. Offering these people dish full of pork meat is plain ignorance and bad manners — yet nobody talks about it.
I’m in the middle position between those who say “when in Rome…” and those who say “bad manners else where are also bad manners in Korea”.
As pointed out by some commentators at Chosun, staring at people, pushing people and not saying sorry were never an accepted culture in Korea — they’re just plain rude. Somethings are not cultural, while some are.
Korea is the country that wants to be accepted as a globalized place, so it’s up to Korea to identify and fix the shortcomings.
“OK, now I get annoyed from time to time because people do things that are rude in Korea, too. But ‘global manners?’”
For “global”, read “multicultural”.
otherwise, I do think the Korean notion of “public” is not as distinct as westerners consider the difference between “private” and “public”. “Out on the town” in one sense is even more relaxed than “being at home” for young South Koreans. So, what these comments could be pointing out is that they don’t feel “in public” as if they are part of the “general public”, with special homogenizing conduct, but that the customs they perceive alienate them.
They fail to mention the tendency for South Koreans to excuse foreigners for every act, because they are foreigners.
#3:
I think people mistake “polite” for “courteous”. I think South Koreans are polite in the sense of one’s social position and status dictates how others should act towards one.
But, as far as treating each individual in a certain universalizable way that guarantees a safe, fair common space, that is a work in progress.
I’ve always wondered if foreigners would be happier if they were treated equally and exactly like Koreans.
Make that “would Western foreigners be happier if they were treated equally and exactly like Koreans.
When I first got here, I asked my students (always adults) if staring was an acceptable form of behavior, they said no.
I then asked them why people always stare at me. They said it was because I am a foreigner.
South Koreans do not excuse foreigners for every act. English Spectrum memories anyone! That’s only one example.
When reading articles like this, the mature and tolerant reaction should be to try to learn from it, no matter how ridiculous you think the complaints may be.
I think what is truly lacking on Korea TV is programming that tries to teach tolerance to kids.
I distinctly remember that when I was a kid growing up in Canada, there were many TV shows that showed kids visiting and hanging out with friends from cultural minorities. Simply put, foreigners weren’t presented in the same superficial manner as they are presented here to kids. There was a concrete effort to teach tolerance.
These shows would have an Anglo or Franco-Canadian kid or an American kid experience the culture of his friend, a member of a cultural minority.
I distinctly remember many of these shows. Just of the top of my head:
there was one where the kid went to the synagogue with his Jewish friend and celebrated Hanukkah with his family; another where a kid ate a traditional Pakistani meal with his friend’s family during Ramadan; another where a kid went to a ‘powwow’ with his Native-Canadian friend and learned to play the drum; another where the kid learned to play a steel drum made by the uncle of his Barbadian friend; another where a kid visited his West-African friend and listened to his grandmother tell traditional West-African stories; etc.
I seriously doubt it, cm. Acting Korean would require “situational awareness” of the status of others. That’s fine as long as everyone in the room is your junior or inferior, but I think most westerners would chafe at having to endure the full rigor of Korean custom.
well, this is a fork in the road.
Korea can be more westernized like Japan, and get more props from people who matter more to Korea’s economy.
Korean can stay the status quo, and become the same as current mainland China, and react late when China decides to clean up and get more props from potential “customers”.
Business is business.
Suit the customer, Korea.
I see a point of improvement in yet again emulating Japan, whereas the other way is nonprofitable.
Keep in mind most Koreans claim yang ban status, but they obviously didn’t ever get any handed down yang ban manners from home.
Really obvious, no?
There are, of course, some cultural factors/misunderstandings.
Well, I don’t know about “힘있는 외국인에 사대하는 언론” (힘있는 외국인? What 힘있는 외국인?), but I’m almost inclined to agree with the 사대주의 part. I’d say the same thing if the NYT started telling Americans to stop talking in a loud and opinionated fashion because foreigners don’t like it. In fact, I’d even wager that a lot of the ugly nationalism and rhetoric of victimization that we occasionally see would just disappear if Koreans (sorry to use the generalization) would just gain the cultural confidence to stand up and say, “What? Foreigners don’t like it when we (insert behavior here)? Well, too fucking bad.” Instead, you have mainstream press like the Chosun crying “We need to adapt our ways to them, even in our own goddamn country.”
Of course, it wasn’t just imagery. There was also commentary, generally narrated by the kids.
wanna put up a fight?
ask them if
“ni aemi, aebi ga,
guh rut kae ha ra go,
ga reuh chi dun?”
Now, I’m not responsible of the results.
Generally, School teachers of all people love using this line.
It’s an attack of triple effect.
Mom, Pop, and the person.
I’ve never met a Korean who didn’t flush up red in the face when hearing this line.
Imagine it coming out of a foreigner’s mouth ! In Hangul !
ha ha .
Shame or props to school teachers for using this line.
I haven’t decided if they deserve the right to say things to school children.
“I think what is truly lacking on Korea TV is programming that tries to teach tolerance to kids.”
There’s no multiculturalism in South Korea. There’s a quasi-culturalism, but it’s more like the way East Asian travelers quietly observed western habits in factories and social settings and studied foreign behavior.
Either one is Korean, or one is not. There’s the polite way of treating non-Koreans, and then there’s the impolite way. Both are customarily acceptable. I seriously doubt that will change, and I expect Koreans (and East Asians) will accept the consequences in lost profits and fewer immigrants, just to maintain the “right” way.
If I had to guess, I’d say not. But it would probably be better for us. At least it would help us adjust more.
…a picture of an American woman grimacing while selecting socks because of a Korean woman stretching her arm under her shoulder.
I wonder what the expression of the Korean woman is? She’s getting hammered.
A lot of the complaints are pretty weak. As for the USFK soldier, I can’t help but wonder how he dealt with the situation. Did he bellow rudely in English? Did he use pidgin Korean without the appropriate yos and imnidas? He might not realize it but he may have been just as rude as his hosts.
Strikes me that a lot of folk use the manners of their home country as a yardstick for Korea, and call it “global manners”. Then ignore or don’t recognize when the locals are being nice — which they do in their own way.
Like the nice gentleman who whispered that I was handsome in my ear when I was nude in the spa. Ok, bad example.
On the other hand, Koreans can do things that are pretty shocking to a westerner. Like my old boss who said upon meeting my new co-worker, “David, please go on a diet and see a dentist.” She said please! Or the endless targeting by drunk buffoons and teenagers who for some strange reason think it’s hilarious to yell out every little bit of pidgin English they know at you. Anyone ever had the urge to scream random eastern expressions at Asian people back home in the street? Didn’t think so.
BTW, everyone will be happy to know that the situation in North Korea is the same. Our guides in Pyongyang used to think it was great fun to tell one of the members to run back to the bus after each outing, “to kill some idle flesh.” And once at a checkpoint, to break the ice, a soldier pointed to each of us in turn and called us animal names — an ugly rat, a hairy money, a fat pig etc.
Viva le 매너 한국어!
IMHO, one simply needs to focus their mind on being more positive and project themselves in a more positive manner into their surroundings. Such usually cuts through many minor annoyances that one could pass off as cultural differences.
Mind you, I know that there are some situations that occur that are not just thoughtless but are done with malice but there are jerks anywhere on the planet and not just here.
I still find that many of the younger Koreans that travel are quite cosmopolitan in their composure and have better manners than their elders, upon occasion.
I’ll have to agree with WJK. Unfortunately, Korea doesn’t have quite the clout as the United States, an example country in Robert’s point. If S.Korea is to do business and survive a sandwich between Japan/China, it has to treat their most important customers as they want to be treated as.
As for SomeguyinKorea’s comment,
“I distinctly remember that when I was a kid growing up in Canada, there were many TV shows that showed kids visiting and hanging out with friends from cultural minorities.”
Come on, be fair. It was just this year S.Korea’s foreign population reached one million – which isn’t that many to begin with. To expect multi cultural education when there are no visible minorities around,… well.. what can I say. At least they’re starting to talk about race/multi-cutural related subjects, is a step in the right direction.
Marmot:
“But it would probably be better for us. At least it would help us adjust more.”
Perhaps with every flight to Incheon, each passenger could get a complimentary hanbok set, appropriate for the season. Wearing traditional clothing in public would certainly ease the process!
Inboard passengers should be so lucky.
No, I tend to agree with someguy, maybe not re the programing on TV, but perhaps teaching a little bit of tolerance at school…
Kids here study “Moral studies” at school, and it’s a hugely exhausting course, from elementary school through to high school. Here is the curriculum:
http://tigger.uic.edu/~lnucci/MoralEd/articles/chu.html
I invite everyone to search through the list of topics for a single mention of respecting people who are different. Sorry folks, not important enough.
On the other hand: Love of nation & state, patriotism, correct postures toward the national flag & the national anthem, desire for unification, brotherly love, and heartfelt thanks to the patriots of old…
etc etc
In regard to many Korean nationals, they seem to see themselves as more important than those outside of their family.
Why else would they jump ahead in lines or drive through a group of people at a crosswalk?
Why else would a younger Korean (especially ajjuma’s) bump into or or push aside an elderly Korean and not think anything of it?
I’ve seen it countless times on the subway and in department stores.
It happens elsewhere around the world, but remember, Koreans are so polite and kind while “others” are barbarians.
Well, I think there are few issues in that article. Really, Korea has little in the way of “social grace” or refinement. And I think as foreigners we all feel that at some time or another, whether it’s an ajuma on the subway with elbows of steel or just the WTF, can’t you wait for me to get off the elevator before getting on?
The other issue is that most service people run on a script. You can’t deviate from that script in any circumstance! God forbid a little independent thought or some cognitive process. You must not move from the script! I see that in people from the lowly waitress to “expert” doctors. I can’t change that prescription because the script says more antibiotics.
The quoted foreigners were American, Canadian, and French. Okay, so Canadians aren’t 힘있는 외국인.
My g/f calls me a 힘있는 외국인 sometimes. Ok that was a lie.
I guess there are a couple of things to point out here. One is Koreans should stop calling people foreigners.
How about “citizens from other countries”?
The customer service sector in the past here in Korea has never been geared to “the customer is always right” as is in the West.
It is changing that was as capitalism continues to dominate the economics here.
And let’s face it, how many Koreans go to a Korean restaurant and have the special orders? This just does not happen. Koreans eat their food the way it is always made and do not deviate away from that conformity.
We westerners are the opposite.
Give me this but minus that and extra this. Hold this and heavy on this. And if they get it wrong we want the manager.
We are sort of assholes in that regard. Well some are, I do not act that way even back in the States.
How long have most of you been here? A couple of years? Five? Six, seven?
Let me tell you back in the early 90′s you went outside of Itaewon or the Yongsan area you were stared at continuously like either a movie star or a jackass, you choose!
And thats just here in Seoul. Imagine Daegu, Pusan, or Daejon and other places down south.
90 percent of the foreign population was foreign business execs, diplomats and military, the English teacher boom did really happen until the financial crisis which also was followed by the migrant worker explosion around the same time.
Korea has come a long way in just 10 years or so you can now go anywhere in Seoul and not be stared at like you are an ALIEN freak show!
Which may be why so many people get bumped into on the sidewalks of Seoul. The Koreans just treat you like they treat anyone else!!!!
I may be mistaken and a little off topic, but I don’t think the Korean constitution mentions anything about the rights of other ethnic groups in Korea.
Remember, there are no “naturalized” Koreans, just “foreigners with Korean citizenship.”
Yeah, yeah, I realize the whole ethnically homogeneous excuse thing is to blame.
Sure, it mentions foreigners in regards to the Charter Of Human Rights, but nothing about ethnicity in general.
If this is the case, why would or should they care about tolerating others?
It’s hard to produce hangul with your mouth… I can do ㅇ okay, I guess, and maybe ㅡ, but try to do ㄹ with your mouth
As a woman, I am thankful we foreigners are not always treated like Koreans.
Better for men maybe. Really, Robert. For many reasons, Korea is definitely an easier country to live in for those equipped with outdoor plumbing.
#27:
Of course, there’s less regard for individuals, but I doubt Koreans will pass up that much Confucianism.
My wife repeatedly criticizes me when I’m so “American”, i.e. courteous (and, she’s been to to the States, and several states in the “ultra-courteous” South, twice, if I let somehow “jump the queue” to a bus (if there is one queue), or fail to tell someone outside in the neighborhood or street to shut up. She always tells me, as a foreigner, I can shame people by criticizing them, wheareas she would just start an argument with the same reaction.
That’s just the “ppall-ee, ppall-ee” mentality at work. It might be working itself out. Most customers queue at banks now and respect the person at the counter. There is some courtesy on the subway platforms and escalators. But the Korean rush is probably ingrained now.
I’ve seen that a lot in Paris, actually, where idle youth will call Konnichiwa to every Asian girl they cross in the street.
The basis of interpersonal etiquette, whether in Korea or elsewhere is The Golden Rule:
“Treat others as you would have them treat you”
What a radical concept!
I assume this is when they’re not in the suburbs burning cars, I take it?
You read my mind, buster!
#23,
Well, the population of Canada was roughly 20 million when I was a kid. Immigration averaged about about 600000 per year and the immigrant population stood at about 8% , half of what it is now, and half of which was from Europe (so, roughly 1.6 million immigrant, half of which were European. Only 15 percent of the total immigrant population, 240000 people, were from Asia). Sure, that doesn’t take into account second and third generation Canadians, but it seems clear enough that back then, Canada wasn’t nearly as ethnically diverse as it is now.
Rudeness. Back in Germany half of the service was rude the other half of the experience was better, but to find someone behaving very friendly it happens often as surprise. Many Germans know the difference compared to the States and often they say the people there were only acting, only surface. In the service in Germany many say as an excuse: I can not smile all the time (it is not human). There were some campaigns for better treating of customers within the service like inside the once national Deutsche Bahn.
Also to improve the English skills especially before the World Cup 2006. Things are improving slowly.
So, rudeness is not unfamiliar to me, I don’t see the bump in someone as rude in Korea rather the bump into our car yesterday in the parking lot of our apartment. It seems it has happened in the morning and the driver left the place without giving a notice, probably a neighbor. But it is also something one can experience in Germany. Looking at the cars it seems to happen more regularly in Korea.
#31 makes a good point about customer service, but other than that, what a boatload of whingeing foreigners!
Is not the point of going abroad to see how other people live? If so, why complain about it when you find out they don’t live like you–and don’t particularly care if they live like you, either.
This, and not McDonald’s or Starbucks or pop music, is the real face of cultural imperialism.
It’s funny, no one ever bumped into me when I went to Korea, and I met several woman who I’d let bump into me all they wanted.
Hallelujah. Only problem is, the Chosun Ilbo apparently does care.
#42:
It’s only words! Which is exactly what my bosses say when I try to discuss terms and conditions in my contract.
Or, like students say, refusing to answer direct questions: oh, Teacher, we just wanted you to talk for a long time so we could practice our English!
It’s easy to endure criticism when you’re sure you’re right, but the process validates your sense of status.
AGAIN, by THEIR own admission, Koreans are so KIND and POLITE to FOREIGNERS.
They are not the barbarians, foreigners are the barbarians. They don’t believe in “I” only “we” remember.
They are never selfish. Have people forgotten this?
#42 You went to Korea? Did you ever live in Korea? Were you ever targeted by the Korean mass media, say SBS?
The article seems to be a mix of valid criticism/call for action and… well, retardation/out-of-context claims. But then again, that is to be expected, as cultural relativism and ethnocentrism is an ambiguous moral tug-of-war.
@ hoju_saram
“Anyone ever had the urge to scream random eastern expressions at Asian people back home in the street? Didn’t think so.”
@ mcnut
So, you want the people to say “citizens from other countries”? In Korean, that would be “Dah run nara ae suh on saram.”… true demonstration of how silly over-enforced PC can be.
breatrak, perhaps English teachers in Korea need Martin Luther King Jr figure to fight against SBS and Chosun Ilbo.
Especially when the Sino-Korean 외국인 means just that. Not, of course, that Korea is free from the PC word play, either:
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=103&oid=117&aid=0000044043
I often find when foreigners talk about “tolerance” in Korea, they really mean “I want to do whatever the hell I want.” Foreigners preach “when in Rome” on any number of cultural matters, until something infringes on their own pet issues of domestic violence, cats, dog meat, and imported beer.
I’m used to getting bumped once in a while, and I’ve grown to prefer it to the way we did things back home, where the smallest degree of incidental contact would produce gasps, curses, and looks of extreme indignation. So somebody bumps your arm . . . grow the fuck up, and quit running to the newspapers with all your problems.
The biggest “cultural” thing that pisses me off is the zoo animal treatment. Can’t go very far without kids—and adults—shouting, giving catcalls, and otherwise behaving exactly like I’m a zoo animal. On what planet is that even remotely polite or appropriate behavior? I get really annoyed with the “Koreans are just curious” or “Koreans are being friendly” or “Koreans just want to talk with foreigners” lines when used to justify behavior like that that is meant to be anything but friendly or polite. That’s my own pet peeve, I guess.
Aren’t you the guy who stirred up the Lee Dong-wook thing in the first place?
Well, not really, although he did mention my article at the end of his. (My letter was a small refutation of an earlier article on a completely unrelated topic).
Anyway, I think discriminatory visa regulations and racist banking policies are more worthy of articles than “that lady smudged my Pumas.”
I blame Smee. And Roh Moo-hyun.
May I make the obvious point that 외국인 does not mean foreigner; it means non-Korean. Thus you have this sort of scene in the news: a popular Korean restaurant in NYC, the owner says “we get lots of Koreans, but also a lot of foreigners.” By which he means the locals. A Korean cannot be a 외국인 any more than a Jew can be a goy.
I think what we are seeing in Korea is a complete breakdown even of Korean manners, now that kids are not raised at home anymore but in hagwons where they are customers i.e. kings. But Korean manners (in contrast to manners in the West)have always been what you observe only in regard to your betters, superiors, to the upper class, etc. And many foreigners who complain about rudeness here would find themselves treated very differently if they looked rich.
As for food – Korean restaurant service really is awful. Any kind of special requests and they will a) accept them, then b) ignore them then c) laugh and shake their heads when you complain.
“I often find when foreigners talk about “tolerance” in Korea, they really mean “I want to do whatever the hell I want.” ”
No, when I talk about tolerance, I talk about wanting more people to act civilized towards my wife and son. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were talking about this yesterday. She was saying that people have become more tolerant. Old men haven’t called her a ‘whore’ to her face in a couple of years and children and adults stare a bit less at us than they used to.
Perhaps #47, Koreans should practice what they preach for a change.
My only Korean female friend went through the same kinda shit your wife went/goes through Someguy. However, her husband is African-American so you can imagine.
The vegetarian thing mentioned is annoying. I understand that it’s not a big thing in Korea and kimbap places don’t love special orders. But nobody ever refuses to do it — they just say they’ll leave out the egg/whatever and then don’t.
Whatever, only rarely do I complain. But recently I was in a place, far far, from busy, and asked the woman — while she was standing in the kitchen — to leave out the egg. She repeated it back to me, oh no egg huh? Got it. And then she plopped it in anyway. All I wish for is consistency, one way or the other.
“And many foreigners who complain about rudeness here would find themselves treated very differently if they looked rich.”
Or, if one is just with Koreans, especially profs or older men. The same kids who yell and laugh every morning are too afraid to look at me when I’m with my wife.
It’s not only a matter for those with a choice. I’ve witnessed a dinner companion who explained very carefully her severe allergy and reaction to a particular condiment only to find it in the meal when it arrived. This wasn’t a case of failing to hold a standard ingredient in a dish, we had specifically ordered a dish which they told us didn’t use the condiment!!! Fortunately, my guest is a seasoned traveller (no pun intended) and checks everything carefully before eating….
To top it all GG tried to charge us for the replacement meal…
I was floored by my first trip to a major supermarket/department store (E-Mart, HomePlus, Homever, etc.). Skimpy outfits on beautiful girls aside, it was so off putting to try and buy anything without one of these vultures taking it out of my hands and placing the crappy substitute that they were hawking in them instead.
I am annoyed to no end as this is everywhere here and in pretty much every type of market. I have to use my elbows and body just to escape, but it does feel good toss their product back at them and take the one I wanted in the first place. However, countless places have lost a sale to me because of these pressuring tactics. I can’t just pick up a pair of shoes, a shirt, some underwear, or a box of choco pies to just look at them to decide if I really need them without someone butting in where they are not welcome. If I need help, I will definitely ask for it, but this is too much.
I also make sure I look at expiration dates on products, but even this is looked down upon…well, by the shopkeepers anyway. Some freaked out when I took some students to buy some snacks in their store. The kids wanted U.S. made Coca-Cola, but I noticed that they were over a year past the “Best by” date. I had them put them back on the shelves, and then the owner exploded on us. Needless to say, I took my business elsewhere.
I wish I could buy everything I need on-line instead of having to put up with so much of this nonsense.
#49,
Didn’t catch your last paragraph before writing a reply, but yeah. It seems to me that some Koreans don’t know how to behave when they don’t have the Korean grammar dictating how and when they must show respect.
#57,
For the money thing, yeah. I’ve had Korean cops at roadblocks treat me and my wife like crap because we were driving her subcompact. It’s a different story when I’m in my own car.
Oh, and the kid thing. Try working at a university. What I like the most is how the freshmen will use banmal with me, someone with almost 10 years of university under his belt and old enough to be their father, but they’ll use formal word endings with the sophomores.
…Then again, some people are just plain rude.
61, This brings to mind a conversation I had with a Korean Auxiliary solder when I was in the Army. While I was going through great pains to learn Korean language and customs, I never really followed them that closely, and would generally use 반말 with all of them and paid little attention to their age structure, generally treating them as my friends (with exception to rank considerations). When one quizzed me on why I did this, I explained to him, similar with your point, that no matter what, in Korea, no-one would ever treat me as their 선배, so there was no real point in me treating them as mine. He agreed all too quickly.
Now is a different story, but that was then.
#49 – No, I consider “tolerance” not being called “nigger” in the subway, or being otherwise verbally or phyically attacked for no reason. That’s what I’D ask for. I could care less about getting bumped into, cut on in line, people spitting, what have you. That’s just Korea, and it’s getting better all the time. I first came here in 1994, and it was far more rougher around the edges than now.
I wish as much effort was put into REAL matters that piss off foreigners here, rather than stupid bickering over table manners.
But see, no one wants to talk about THAT. How about a piece on the many verbal assaults on and sexual harrassment of foreigners? That’s pretty common, but far more serious than getting bumped into or cut in line.
But that would REALLY piss people off, now, wouldn’t it?
I don’t really buy Robert and WJS’ argument that Korean lack of concern for common space and for strangers in public (by cutting in line, jabbing elbows, etc) is somehow a Korean cultural trait, and therefore beyond critique. Once upon a time, Korea was known as the ‘land of manners’ under the Chosun Dynasty and while that most likely referred to strict adherence to the confucian standard, I would bet that Korean villagers in the Chosun Dynasty probably treated each other alot better than Seoul urbanites do today. So, it’s hard to claim that modern rudeness owes primarily to Korean culture or traditions. And, it’s not as if Koreans are defending a propensity to cut in line or never say ‘excuse me’ as something to be proud of as Koreans. Probably the vast majority would prefer living in a friendlier, or at least more orderly society. But, it’s a matter of collective action problem – that other guy is cutting in line, so if I don’t, I’ll never get to the front. Most Americans would probably also welcome the day before higher crime rates, when house doors could be left unlocked, people could hitch hike, and kids could go trick or treating without fear of being poisoned. I don’t think we proudly defend those traits as what it means to be American.
And, even if something is related to culture – does it mean we can’t criticize it or improve it? Take the “foreign zoo animal” custom. Korea is a highly trade dependent country, which gains alot through exchange with other countries. Any nation that wants to engage in trade and human exchange with other peoples and countries is going to have to drop the “zoo animal” practice.
And, Robert, my hats off to you, but I don’t see how you can handle working for a Korean boss. There are a few exceptions, but personally, Korean bosses really bother me – the total personalization of authority, the ass kissing and lobbying, the arrogance, the arbitrary last minute demands, the sneaky tricks.. well, I’m extremely grateful that I don’t have to put up with that to the extent that most Koreans in subordinate positions have to. This is a nice country to be rich and powerful in, not so great if you’re not.
Hoju Saram, interesting comments at the end of post #21. Was that a tour to Pyongyang? What was the context to the “kill some flesh” comment? What were you doing up there, sounds interesting…
#64,
You’re being silly. Don’t you read the English language press? Don’t you know there are only white-collar crimes in Korea?
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>> #53 “Thus you have this sort of scene in the news: a popular Korean restaurant in NYC, the owner says “we get lots of Koreans, but also a lot of foreigners.” By which he means the locals. A Korean cannot be a 외국인 any more than a Jew can be a goy.”
—————————————–
Then again, maybe they don’t use the word “goy” but in Utah Jews (as well as other non-Mormons) are known as gentiles…
I didn’t experience much pushing and shoving and rudeness, but then I lived in little ole Jeomchon – Seoul isn’t the totality of Korea….
This is an amusing thread. It’s purely anecdotal, of course, but how would you quantify something as subjective as manners?
I’ll bet South Koreans who live outside Seoul would probably agree with most of what’s being said, much like people outside Paris or NY would tell you people in the “big city” are pushy and different from non-urbanites. They are because they have to be.
#68,
I’ve been to NY and Paris many times and I can honestly say that people in Seoul are pushier.
The problem is that, psychologically in a developmental sense, Koreans haven’t gone through what I’d call that ‘individuation’ phase by which the sense of being an individual with unique borders, boundaries, and space, has been developed. If this sense is lacking, treating others as beings with their own borders and boundaries wouldn’t follow. Why this sense is lacking in Korea or why it doesn’t develop as readily there as it would in other places in the world is anyone’s guess — maybe it’s got something to do with close family structures, Confucian values, or whatever. But I do think it’s a problem and most certainly leads to problems.
Alternatively, Koreans double dip the chip! Ewwwe. Chon-nom-deul!
Koreans can be as they want… It’s their country… But don’t expect them to be accepted as a country with decent manners anytime soon…. They can do as they want… It’s their reputation… If they want to ruin it let them…
abcdefg is right. In the West, manners are there to preserve everyone’s private space. In Korea, where this is no private space, manners are used only to show deference to one’s superiors.
While we’re dishing anecdotes:
Icy cold wind outside. An old lady is hurrying to cross the little parking-lot road separating one apartment block from another. A car about 80 yards off in the parking lot honks frantically at her. The old woman, who would have made it across in time if left alone, staggers backward and waits several seconds for the car to arrive and pass by her. Behind the wheel a fortyish biatch, angrily shaking her earrings as if at the granny’s impertinence in even THINKING to cross the road.
The old woman in the cold must defer to the woman sitting in the warm car because in “Confucian” Korea, money trumps age every time.
Cry me a river! People are rude in Korea, just as people are rude everywhere else in the world. I have met so many polite and eager to help people in Korea who have gone to extraordinary lengths to be helpful. One instance will stay with me for a long time: a woman in Yongsan offered me her umbrella in the pissing rain, and when I refused walked with me to where I was going despite the fact it was in the opposite direction she was going！ (Not to mention she was Hoooot!) In contrast no one would do that for me – not even in little ol’ New Zealand! Speaking of which: the personal space thing. Being from NZ, my personal space is about 6 feet in every direction. 4 Million people in a country 4 times the size of Korea means personal space is huge. Try 50 million people in a country a quarter the size and personal space shrinks! It’s a numbers game people. Get over it.
Nice sentiments, Stafford, but alas, even Koreans who have lived abroad make the same criticism of their country when they return here. Handicapped Koreans are especially critical. (We think we get the zoo animal treatment!)It is not a numbers game. Go to Holland, Hong Kong, Tokyo, any densely populated country in the OECD – see if you can find this kind of behavior.
We’re not talking about being packed into a subway car, where people literally cannot help invading another’s space. We’re talking of things like people driving into a block of apartment buildings at 5 a.m. and then honking for their friend to come out, rather than spend a few pennies on a 문자. There is a level of complete obliviousness to others here (the Korean word “남” is a cold one indeed) that you do not find in other countries. Also, though – and this is perhaps a positive thing, though I’m not sure – Koreans put up with others’ rudeness more than we do. Someone honking at 5 am in an American apartment complex would get a flower pot (if not a bullet) through his windshield. This is a great place to be a rude person, because the polite people don’t complain.
Sure, foreigners in Korea complain about a lot of nothing sometimes. However, until the day comes when I can walk down the street never having to round a corner to find a Korean mother squatting down holding a little girl with her legs spread eagle with a stream of piss shooting up in the air…well…there are some things that need changing.
If Koreans want to continue to view this as the common sense solution to a child having to go to the bathroom, so be it. But I choose not to.
The whole “Korea is crowded, you must understand” trope is utter bunk. The population of Korea in 1955 was estimated to be about 20 million, with only 1 million residing in Seoul, which means the density of the population was much less (try about 40% the current level). Before the Japanese improved public health and living standards Korea only supported about 12 million. Korean culture didn’t emerge suddenly in the last few years — these people were fucking rude long before they got crowded.
So there’s got to be another explanation. As for me, I think it’s the grinding poverty that characterized 4975 of 5000 years of Korean history, coupled with the Confucianist lack of any idea of “the common good”. If you wanted something, and waited for others to take their turn, chances are whatever it was would be long gone. That’s why Koreans crowd in like pigs at the trough.
#74
“This is a great place to be a rude person, because the polite people don’t complain.”
They don’t complain because the “rude people” don’t care if you complain. You can yell and throw flower pots, but you don’t exist until you confront the person face to face.
I had an incident in Korea where a truck hit me then took off. I was on the ground in pain, but a friend of mine ran after the truck and stopped him at the light and confronted him face to face. The man then acknowledged my existence, and reversed and sincerely apologized, and held me and oddly, even kissed my hand. But had I not appeared in this person’s circle of awareness, as inhumane as it sounds, I would have remained a mere object in his mind.
I think if Koreans want to have an international standing and improve their global reputation abroad, they will first need to deal with this backwards primeval mentality. They will need to include the “Other” in their circle of awareness, at an individual level, but also on a national level, recognizing other countries not as vulgar barbarians but as equal civilizations.
Everyone is missing the chance for some fun. I could complain that people ought to let subway passengers exit before boarding, but who’s going to listen to that? Just before the doors slide open you can tell who’s got ants in their pants about jumping on; I always impede his/her entrance by walking straight into them. For the motorists who jump into the left turn lane though they want to go straight I have a special treat. They accelerate and so do I. They slow down and so do I. Take them right into the oncoming traffic. My favorite though has to be the bus drivers who cross the double yellow lines and enter oncoming traffic to pass everyone. He’s driving right at me and I never leave my lane, thus forcing the driver to completely stop. He glares, I shrug.
Reckless and inconsiderate and absurd…you bet. I wouldn’t enjoy Korea as much if it, and I, weren’t.
Global Etiquette my ass. If it was Koreans visiting another country, then I understand if they are being rude sons of bitches there, but Koreans should be Koreans in Korea. I don’t understand why so many people bitch about their sad experiences in Korea if they can’t handle the way Koreans live their lives. They take it too personally. I mean, I do want tourists and other foreigners to have a good time there and all, but they should not forget they are in another country! Not theirs! It seems like they want the whole world to revolve around them and to adapt to their own personal “etiquette”. I understand where they’re coming from because I’m from the States and I get a little pissed about the way Koreans do things, but I don’t expect Koreans to start changing their whole lifestyles. Now just because most nations read left to right, should Hebrew and Arabic be forced to change too because it doesn’t go the “global” direction?
Also, do not forget that Korea has been a Confucian society for how long now? As much as we would like to respect individualism, Koreans follow a philosophy where the needs of the many come before the one. It has its pros and cons. I’m American, so I believe in individualism, but raised by Korean parents also make me realize and understand the Korean mentality. But the truck hitting the person and treating his as a mere object… now that driver just a dumbass. When I was in second grade and got hit by those Bongo trucks in Korea, I remember everyone in half mile radius rushing to me to make sure I was alright and tried to drag me to a hospital. I told them I was fine and ran to my grandmas, but the bus driver that dropped me off there grabbed the Bongo driver and forced him to come up the my apt and apologize.
Actually, the bus driver didn’t force him up. They both just came up to check up on me because I ran away from the adults (I was afraid of hospitals). The Bongo driver (Seoul Milk deliveryman) even called my place a week later to check up on me =)
Yup Confucianism. I once recall sitting in a portacabin in Qatar sharing coffee with a Korean manager, and out of the blue he says that “Korea was fucked up the very moment it adopted Confucianism.”
Seungyup, in my perspective, stopping after you hit someone in a truck would belong to “global etiquette,” something every country should follow, and yes everyone, no matter what country you live in, should abide by a global etiquette. A hit-and-run is inexusable in any country. And for you to call someone who does a hit-and-run just a “dumbass”? No sir, that was not only rude, in most countries that would be considered criminal behavior.
As far as your story, I’m not sure what to believe, that the driver attempted a hit and run but was forced out of his truck (your first edition), or he followed you (after you ran away, demonstrating you were fine). I can imagine the drivers running after you yelling out, “Are you ok?” And then everyone running to drag you to the hospital, while you’re running away… Seungyup, you have yet to master the art of story-telling!
In any case, I’m sure there are plenty of people who would stop after they hit someone in Korea. But from my own experience, I’ve witnessed and heard of more hit-and-runs in Korea than in any other country I’ve lived in. I talked recently to a neighbor of mine who looked badly beat up, and he said he was hit by a motorbike while getting off the bus. I can go on.
The point is, there is a global humanitarian etiquette that needs to be followed, based on an awareness and respect of other human beings that aren’t in your circle of friends and family. Koreans who don’t abide by this may end up in this situation when they go abroad: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Entertainment/2006/04/06/hitandrun_driver_found_in_korea/6370/
#77,
Nah, we was putting on a show because he was caught. He knew that if you told the cops that he had tried to run away, all he had to do was pull some bystander out of the crowd to testify how caring he had been to you in order to get off the hook.
A month ago, I was in McDonald’s. An English speaking expat who was about 6’3 was being rude and generally being a jack ass at an intimidated female order taker who was all but 5’2 teen ager. Apparantly she screwed up the order and she had the audacity to not speak/understand English well. The real annoying ones aren’t the Koreans, it’s those expats who think their shit don’t stink.
Seouldout #78 that was a really funny post – got a good laugh, thank you. I regularly drive the nehbu soonhwan doro (Seoul inner loop highway, and got tired of all the line cutting that goes on at exits. So, now I will just never yield – ever. The worst offenders are taxis, and I admit I gained great satisfaction by blocking one guy who tried to get in right before the exit – then he was just stuck there – awesome.
#79 Seungyup – Do you really think for a moment that most Koreans like it when some inconsiderate jerk breaks the rules and cuts in line in front of them, or slams into them when they want to get out of the subway, wrecklessly drives the wrong way down a street, or runs them over with his truck? These are the actions of a rude minority, badly in need of correction. Most Koreans would be happy to stop these guys.
Brendon,
I’m trying to understand your logic in #76. Somehow you come to assert that Koreans have always been “f***ing rude.” (And, by the way, using profanities is rude.)
You cite population figures, but what does the country’s population have to do with anything? It’s the proportion of people living in cities and the rate of urban growth that supports the “Seoul is too crowded” argument.
South Korea went from an 80% rural population to an 80% urban population in 40 years. (A world record, in fact.)
All city living is inherently more contentious, but that’s particularly true when the city itself has undergone explosive growth. Not only is it a bunch of newcomers, but they’re living on top of each other. That’s a formula for rudeness if I’ve ever heard it.
knickerbocker, I was wondering the same thing.
For the record, I’ve never met a rude Korean in my life, and always get warm, rather family-ish neukkim from any Korean I meet anywhere. Then again, that’s probably because I’m Korean, and have only dealt with multitudes of Koreans in the States and not so much in Korea where I haven’t physically been for more than a few (but memorable and lovely) months.
As for autob-illin’ and anecdotes go, I’ve been involved in 1 hit-and-run in my life- as a victim. The other people involved were a white couple who reamed my car from behind at a red light, on one, snowing evening. In any case, I don’t take it that criminal behavior like this, from anyone, ought to be conflated with the mundane sort depicted in the photo above of the ajumma reaching for socks. They are two definitely seperate issues, as far as I’m concerned.
global=”westernized”?
But then , how come Japanese services have no problem being “global”. No one accuses the Japanese of being anything but Japanese
Things have been getting better. And, since Lee Myengbak took over you will see a definite difference.
2008 is a new start for Korea. People will become internationalized and Korea will be more like Japan and Europe.
Maybe in ten years, Koreans will become more Western than even the Japanese. Don’t laugh. It can happen. Koreans can change quickly if they see the need.
Things have been getting better? For example?
knickerbocker, public rudeness (which stands in striking contrast to Korean hospitality) is one of the defining characteristics of the Korean national character. Culture doesn’t get created in 50 years, so explanations laying this trait at the feet of the relatively recent phenomena of urbanization and population density ring false.
Density may let it out, but doesn’t create it. Otherwise, the same observations of rudeness could be made about the Dutch.
Bingo.
#85,
Oh, sure, there are some expats who are jerks. I distinctly remember seeing a rather corpulent Western ‘lady’ throwing a fucking fit because one of the mom and pop stores in an underground arcade was closed on that Sunday (one of those stores that sold imported goods, namely American junk food). Nevertheless, Chef, the number of locals who think “their shit don’t stink” is far greater than the number of equally annoying expats.
Yes, but only because there aren’t that many expats. Heck, the number of whinging expats in the Chosun article alone is probably enough to give expats the title of biggest per capita crybabies on the Korean Peninsula.
Hey whatever happened to the when in Rome thing? Koreans complain about things done to them almost 100 years ago. We all know the Chinese smell bad right?
Expats are just being like the Romans. Maybe I’m wrong.
Doesn’t complaining about complainers actually make one a complainer too?
Koreans are constantly comparing themselves to others (US and Japan are the most popular two)so it stands to reason that they should be written about in this article.
I’d like to make two points here:
1) Koreans comport themselves quite well around people they know, although the behavior may differ due to differential status reasons. In a village where everyone knows each other, this works great. You put them in a city where 99.999% of the people are outside any of their circles, and voila, you have the Seoul of today.
2) Koreans generally complain more about Korean behavior than foreigners do, at least around me. The Chosun is using the “gaiatsu” (outside pressure in Japanese; not sure if Korea has an equivalent term) approach to try to get things to change, as if foreigners complaining about the problem will have more effect than Koreans doing the same. They may be right for all I know.
I’ve struggled with this for a while. I have the impression that the Korean social system is fairly permissive of “mistreatment” of strangers, because until someone is introduced and placed in the general social hierarchy, they’re not really a person. I have mistreatment in quotations, because I don’t think Koreans would see it as mistreatment, just natural behavior towards someone without social status. Most foreigners will perpetually be in this category, as we have no family structure in Korea. Am I wrong here?
What I’ve struggled with is to what extent I’m willing tolerate it. I’m not a relativist, and I reserve the right to reject the entire mores of a culture if they strike me as ethically wrong (and the above system does strike me so). On the other hand, I live here, and things aren’t about to change. In the end, I’m kinda glad that Koreans place foreigners in a “does-not-belong” category. Because really, I don’t. And that’s fine by me.
#76, So you’re married to one of those “fucking rude” “pigs at the trough”, Mr Considerate?
What’s the point in smearing the people your wife and your children, at least partially, belong? What does it say about you?
i blame japan.
I blame Roh.
babarian, if you think I’m tough on Korean rudeness, you ought to hear my wife sometime. She had emigrated in 1988 and planned to leave her homeland behind for life in Japan, but cruel fate intervened to ruin the plan.
Like wjk, I Blame Japan™.
And no, neither my wife nor I permit our little piggies to treat others with traditional Korean disdain/disregard. Our children are better than that. Making sure they’re socialized in a way so as to be successful in the rest of the world and not just here at the slop trough is a primary motivation in sending them to foreign school.
Keep the good, discard the bad, man. If Koreans complain about their abominable public behavior then I sure as hell have the right to do so as well.
BC, You can criticise the bad behaviour of whomever, but in the process you effectively called your wife a pig and your children half pigs.
Because Koreanness is to Koreans a matter of race and blood and not (as we foreigners see it) a matter of culture, Koreans fly off the handle when contemporary Korean behavior is criticized; they think it means an attack on the entire race.
Hence Babs thinks that by criticizing Korean rudeness Brendon is calling his Korean-blooded wife a pig and his half-Korean-blooded children half pig, even though Brendon has explained that they do not behave rudely.
(BTW, acting like pigs at a trough is a common English expression meaning to jostle rudely for advantage. Using this expression is not the same as calling someone a pig.)
As far as I’m concerned “waygooks” including myself are visitors here. Most of wich come from western backgrounds with western morales and background. As most well traveled and seasoned bohemians know and realize, is that the world doesn’t move the way you want it to and the way your home countries do. Second point, I grew up as a minority in a small WASP town back in the U.S. I got used to stares a long time ago…..can you say WELCOME TO THE CLUB, so stop whining!! Oh and by the way we stick out like soar thumbs, so of course people are gonna stare at you. You do too, I’m sure when a white boy walks through the sea of black heads, you look too. Finally globalized standard for politeness, it’s called cultural sensitivity. Which many Koreans and Foreigners need to be educated on!! You are a guest here and you aren’t gonna change things, so if you don’t like it, just as if someone invited you into their home and you didn’t like the decor, food or whatever, you wouldn’t say it to their face. You’d probably just say I’m busy gotta go home!! Also Singapore, Japan, The U.S, Canada and so on are way more developed then Korea, so you can’t expect Korea’s gonna be as developed as those countries. PEACE and enjoy the differences of a different country and culture or GO HOME!!
Oh, if it were only so simple and innocent, Herod. But it’s not.
I’d venture to say that the majority of the time, there is some racialism intended in these criticisms. This “racialism” may be subtle in the moderate expat version. But peruse Japanese internet, for one, and you’ll get a different story. Also, the subtle sort one might find here isn’t always so subtle. Hence, if you find someone like me with guard knuckled up, I’d say it’s justified.
abcdefg, don’t blame me for your perceptions of Japanese racialism.
all that yellow dust and kimchi, not to mention your life with pigs, must be getting to your head, bc.
i addressed the major premise in herod’s post above; if it’s as full of holes as i say it is, that’s all that matters. how his argument collapses in relation to you is not something i wrote (or care) about.
i suggest you reread 104. take it in, mull over it for a while. think. barbarian has a point too.
see? no jostling, no piggishness.
While I certainly speak far worse Korean than Robert Koehler, I still can’t jive with this “an American in New York is still a 위국인 (foreigner)” stuff. I remember commenting about it to some Koreans I was with in Las Vegas. They’d go on about waegook-ins this and waegook-ins that, very common with native Koreans in the States, and when I gently questioned who was the 위국인 in the US, Koreans or Americans, they laughed and generously agreed that they were using the wrong term, and that they just hadn’t thought about it. Which makes sense for Koreans, for whom Korea is the center of life, and all other places are “outside,” which is the meaning of “위” (外). Since Korea and the Korean race are viewed as nearly one and the same it makes even more sense that there’s sloppy thinking here similar to the way, for example, Koreans seem to most often mean white Americans when they refer to Americans in general. Or maybe even similar to the way Koreans insist that Catholicism isn’t a “Christian” religion. Protestant is “Christian,” so non-Protestant can’t possibly *also* be Christian now, can it?…
OK, so “위국인” means literally “person from an outside nation” (and “outsider” for example is “국외자”). The Latin root of foreign is also “outside” (forānus). Now, foreign in English has other, expanded meanings, like “it’s foreign to me,” related to “strange” and which can’t apply in Korean as far as I know.
Now, if we take the rude French for a minute (I’m 1/2 rude frog), they call foreigners “etrangers,” which literally means “strangers”. The term isn’t unflattering, but of course it’s related to sayings like “he was strange,” and presumes something is unknown. Also they won’t call a resident an “etranger,” but will say “you’re not French.” So the French, as bigoted and racist as they can be at times, tend not to use the term “etranger” as much as they’ll say “a Korean,” “a Japanese,” or “Arabs” and “Americans” or several less flattering variants of the above…
To Koreans it seems a more binomial thing: you’re Korean or you’re a foreigner. There’s better foreign (like Canadians) and worse foreign (like Africans or any black people…) but it’s all over-archingly foreign — slightly interesting, slightly threatening.
I’m wondering, to bring this long and windy digression back to topic, if this “binomial” attitude can also be related to Korean rudeness (and even Koreans’ wonderful hospitality). That’s to say, you have status or you don’t. You are Korean or you’re not. You are superior (rules bend in your favor) or inferior (rules bend against you). You’re in the circle or you’re not. Zeroes and ones. Could this make sense at all or am I just plain trippin’?
Anyway, call me naive but I for one often find Koreans very polite once one works in a little humor, bowing, polite grammar and attempts to make genuinely respectful contact (that’s to say, once you actually become a person). I’ve often found that reason and logic only work *after* the other, more emotional areas are taken care of, maybe because the reasoning of a non-person seems irrelevant…
Oh, a quick question, what do you guys think Korean reactions would be to a black US president? Mostly positive? Do you think it could help expand Korean conceptions or race and nationality?
#95,
There are few foreigners in my little hick town, so that point is moot as far as I’m concerned. The assholes I see on any day of the week are not of the foreign kind.
#105,
Tut tut. You want to see my ID card, the one that has ‘F-5′ stamped on it in bold letters, the one that lacks an expiration date? I’m most certainly not a visitor, and so are many other posters here.
#111,
Fuck, I don’t know, but I can already see the caricatures in the newspapers.
“Now, if we take the rude French for a minute (I’m 1/2 rude frog), they call foreigners “etrangers,” which literally means “strangers”. The term isn’t unflattering, but of course it’s related to sayings like “he was strange,” and presumes something is unknown. Also they won’t call a resident an “etranger,” but will say “you’re not French.” So the French, as bigoted and racist as they can be at times, tend not to use the term “etranger” as much as they’ll say “a Korean,” “a Japanese,” or “Arabs” and “Americans” or several less flattering variants of the above…”
Etranger (noun) = stranger or foreigner (noun). Etrange (adjective) = strange or unknown (adjective). It’s not much different than how the words ‘foreigner’ and ‘foreign’ are used in English. ‘Etranger’ isn’t as commonly used because of the confusion it may cause, but also because, just as ‘foreigner’ in English, it carries a certain negative connotation, which makes the person using it appear less than worldly.
day4night,
you must be straight up trippin’ because you misspelled 외국인 like a 1000 times in your post.;)
1) i’ve known many catholics of various ethnic stripes in america. they would make the false distinction between their religion and “christianity” too, and would stare at me blindly or dispute me in ignorance when i’d correct them about it. it’s not just a korean or a korean protestant thing.
2) don’t most americans think “american” = white american? if the need to append modifiers has decreased, then it must be recent. it still seems that black americans refer to themselves as black americans; (white) americans too still refer to black americans as black americans. i still refer to myself as korean american. “american” isn’t informative enough for me, and “white american” seems redundant. you’re right that there is no schism between the notions of ethnicity and nation in korea, but how ununsual is this? how many countries subscribe to the divide, and how many (still) don’t? does a country like sweden think it’s entirely proper for a korean adoptee to label himself swedish? would an american think it’s cool if this swedish person described himself as swedish?
btw, your question about obama is a question i’d ask to anyone, not just koreans.
Nope. The binomial — and zero-sum — worldview explains all Korean (by this I mean culturally Korean) behaviors. Tumbling to this point is the first step in the wayward traveler’s ability to get along in this benighted land. Overcoming this worldview is the first step in Korea’s journey to achieve its worldly ambitions to be a “hub” of anything, because to attract foreigners more than once their experience has to include give and take, not just “take”.
I’ve had a gutful of the rudeness here, and can relate to the animal-in-the-zoo comment in the article. Being 2 meters tall (6’8″ in the old money), broad-shouldered and blonde with blue eyes I am about as different from Koreans as shit is from sugar. Case in point, I popped out to the store behind my complex last night for a snack and was treated about as shabbily as I ever have by an entire family who looked like the Korean embodiment of the Beverly Hillbillies. The father, with back turned to me, addressing the store-owner and another customer announced I must be Choi Hong Man, whilst his inbred brats threw their mongrelized English at me and the wife stood by and snickered. Pretty much a daily occurrence where I live, which, suffice to say, is why I don’t go out much during daylight hours.
That being said, the few friends I have treat me like a god, which I seldom deserve. Being treated to dinner by the parents of my students the other night I was afforded every expense and had my ego stroked to levels my mother only usually attains. It’s almost embarrassing and I wish for the life of me I could meet someone who doesn’t treat me at either extreme.
Your foreigness here is always going to be a factor. Another case in point was after asking a woman to shut the door at a hof the other night in a jovial manner, she berated me and accused me of all manner of indecencies, none of which I did. She had lost face severely in front of her own friends as well as my companions (mixed Korean and foreign crowd). Her parting shot was something along the lines of ‘why don’t you piss off back to LA?’
In asking people to be ‘nicer’ to foreigners you’ll only achieve a superficial level of the kind of OTT treatment I mentioned above.
Maybe it’s been said here, I don’t have time to filter through the comments, but there is a shift from the public to personal spheres here in terms of how one is treated. For example, my six month pregnant wife (non-Korean) was almost bowled over by a crowd in the subway in Seoul once, but friends and work colleagues went above and beyond to make her comfortable when our son was born. Where the problem lies is that there is no middle ground, without a relationship you are an object, with it you are gold. Unless the whole relational concept is remodeled, there will be no shift. Maybe they could use those pointless ethics classes in elementary, middle and high schools to this end, but given that the people who write the text books seem to think they are living at the heights of the Chosun Dynasty, that is unlikely.
My point, until Korea becomes a land of people who don’t register people as Korean or other, you will always be either esteemed waygukin-nim or Kye-sekki waygukin-nom.
SomeguyinKorea (#114), yes, that’s how I see it also — etranger in French and foreigner in English can almost sound rude in and of themselves, for reasons both etymological (the “strange” thing) and cultural (they exclude rather than include, are vague, uncosmopolitan and maybe even archaic).
But I guess the real question here is, does the word waegook-in also carry negative connotations?
On the Golden Rule tip, do you think a Korean would feel insulted being called a foreigner in the States or Europe? I really don’t know the answer.
90# Baduk, whilst I appreciate your optimism concerning the improvement of relations with foreigners here, I can’t help but think you are confusing the anti-western politics typified by the nationalist left here and a broader social phenomena that is best evidenced in the Bongo truck hit and run anecdote further up the page. I’ve known plenty of anti-American types here who are more than civil to whitey, whilst witnessing uncivilized behaviour from run-of-the-mill conservative Koreans. I think neither has a corner on kindness or manners and the problems we face here are rooted in something much deeper than the politics of the last decade.
I doubt one would feel insulted; rather, it simply wouldn’t register.
Linguistically, and probably emotionally, a Korean always feels himself a Korean and simply cannot conceive of being a “foreigner”, wheresoever outside the well he may come to find himself.
#83 – I apologize for the confusion. The earlier story was off the top off my memory, I was only 7 when this happened. I thought that the driver was forced by my bus driver to come up and check on me, but after discussing with a family member, I found out he came up voluntarily with the bus driver. I should’ve been more clear on the fact that I found out more from my parents about what really happened. But I can guarantee that 90% of the story is true… unless that bump on the noggin mixed things up pretty bad =)
“On the Golden Rule tip, do you think a Korean would feel insulted being called a foreigner in the States or Europe? I really don’t know the answer.”
Back when I was married, I brought my Korean wife at the time to the states for a vacation to show her the Barbarian Homeland. When I mentioned that she was now the 외국인 she said that she couldn’t ever be 외국 because she was Korean. Stressing the point, I reminded her that she was a foreigner in America. It took a few seconds for this to process (I thought I saw smoke exiting her ears) but she still said she couldn’t be a 외국인. I think this goes to show that the majority of Koreans truly believe that Korea is the center of the universe; even the ones who have traveled and experienced different cultures. Either that or my ex was a complete nutter.
I had a theory about the public rudeness of Koreans…with all of their society rules and the kowtowing they must do to their superiors, being rude to someone anonymously is their only outlet of rebellion against the 선배 requirements. This especially comes into play while driving as face-to-face encounters rarely ever occur. Just a theory.
Personally speaking, I’ve been treated like gold by all of my Korean friends and acquaintances. I’ve rarely encountered the rudeness discussed here; especially since the TV commercials aired before the World Cup explaining to the locals how to stand in line and wait your turn. It’s been more than 2 years since a local male called a local woman I was with a whore so things have gotten better.
this video, as pointed out by the metropolitician sums it all up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D1ABElypBs&eurl=http://metropolitician.blogs.com/
Classic.. You’ve just got to wonder.. what was that lady thinking? “I’d better foul up the wedding in order to get to my seat to watch the wedding.”
” I think this goes to show that the majority of Koreans truly believe that Korea is the center of the universe; even the ones who have traveled and experienced different cultures. Either that or my ex was a complete nutter.”
I’m inclined to believe that the latter is the case.
I found an interesting and relevant article on Korean relationships here:
Naive Psychology of Koreans Interpersonal Mind and Behavior in Close Relationships
The authors talk about “shimjung,” that’s to say “heart” or maybe “emotional mind,” as the salient feature in Korean relationships. The writing is very academic in tone, but I walked away having learned something.
abcdefg (#118), thanks for catching the misspells. My Korean needs all the help it can get!
I’ve never heard Catholics not call themselves Christians anywhere but in Korea, though I’m not doubting your experience. But in Korea I heard it constantly, and also among native Koreans in the US (aka the foreigners). That said this could be largely a semantic issue; I don’t want to exaggerate the cultural difference and I certainly don’t want to come off as the all-knowing American. The white American thing, well, I don’t find “white American” redundant, esp not in the 21st century (I’m in California where we 백인s are also a minority). I usually don’t talk about “white Americans” or “whites” because I’m rarely ever limiting things to just whites! If race is the topic, then obviously it makes sense… Meanwhile Koreans have very commonly corrected me by saying things like, “No, not the black person, the _American_.” Or “no, not the kyopo, but the American.” It’s understandable given yes, the ethnic homogeneity of Korea. (And I’m not trying to gloss over the remaining problems with race in the States.) Btw, answering your Swedish example, a friend’s roommate is a Norwegian girl of African descent and at least here people call her Norwegian, maybe with a little clarification, though usually they just use *her name* (fancy that). But as Brendon pointed out, if Korea wants to become a global hub this kind of more limited, on/off thinking is going to have to be broken open. (Oh and Brendon, this is your old bud Mallory.)
When I lived in Korea as a foolish young twenty-something these kinds of questions used to plague my thoughts. I especially wasn’t sure how much of a right I had to criticize someone else’s country. I criticize the States plenty, but Korea, well, was it my place to complain? But as Brendon said, Korea wants to be a global hub without being global. I mean I can’teven sign up on most Korean sites because I don’t have a Korean ID number (the Korean Web is not World Wide). If I were to go to Korea tomorrow I’d have to find a friend to buy me a cell phone! So in that sense I welcome articles like the one in the Chosun Ilbo that started this thread in the first place, and I hope that Korean nationalism and ethnocentrism — as strong as any I’ve ever seen — can be tempered. With so many Koreans traveling so much maybe there’s room for guarded optimism, but even for dynamic Koreans, changing cultures takes time. It seems to me that race relations in the States really are getting better, for example, but it’s taken over a hundred-fifty years of effort! About complaining in a country that isn’t your own, I’ve come to think that if you’re doing it because you just don’t like the place, well it might be best just to leave. But if you love the place and the people but see problems keeping them from becoming what they want to become and you’re willing to discuss it fairly, or because you love the place but wich to be treated more fairly, well then it’s open season for bitching!
I’d personally just take care to show that it’s coming from the right place and that yes, you also bitch about the States or Canada or wherever you’re from, and that you’re not pretending to be from a superior country…
Oops! The link I just gave is a little confusing. This one might be better:
Naive Psychology of Koreans Interpersonal Mind and Behavior in Close Relationships
Aaron,
Perhaps people would stare less if you actually wore a shirt?
Just kidding. I’m enjoying reading this thread.
And, even if something is related to culture – does it mean we can’t criticize it or improve it? Take the “foreign zoo animal” custom. Korea is a highly trade dependent country, which gains alot through exchange with other countries. Any nation that wants to engage in trade and human exchange with other peoples and countries is going to have to drop the “zoo animal” practice.
This is another specimen of expat thinking that I find strangely common around these parts. The average and ordinary Engrish teacher who works in a hagwon has somehow gotten into his head that the way Koreans treat him is somehow linked to Korea’s international trade and foreign investment. That Korea had better start being nice to these waeguks, or else!
More entertaining than a monkey in a zoo, I tell ya.
Great story, Maekchu. I could smell the smoke across time and space.
No, Maekchu, your wife was correct. To return to my earlier point, 외국인 means non-Korean. Just as gaijin means non-Japanese. A Korean stays a Korean wherever he/she goes. Just as we Americans stay 외국인 even in our own country.
Your wife would probably have had no trouble accepting the fact that she was what Americans would call a “foreigner.” It’s when we treat Koreans the way they treat 외국인 that they get indignant.
I have to admit, that is very funny. I’ve noticed that myself.
No, the reason for that is the number of foreigners in Korea <<<< the number of Koreans living in foreign countries. I know you didn’t learn it at home, but think now on The Golden Rule and see how it applies here.
Korea gains from exchange with the rest of the world, including the export and import of goods and capital, exchange of professionals, including scientists, Professors, or professionals, etc, import of cheap un-skilled labor, and english teachers. Koreans give them all the monkey in a zoo treatment. A few Koreans are impressed by wealth and age, but not all.
#131,
I wonder if those who refer to me as “외국인” to another Korean in my presence would react if I returned the favor and used the Korean equivalent of ‘fatso’ or ‘baldy’ to speak of them in the third person. I mean, they are categorizing me based on my appearance, so why shouldn’t I return the favor, right?
‘BC, You can criticise the bad behaviour of whomever, but in the process you effectively called your wife a pig and your children half pigs.’
but that’s just it. he doesn’t see his wife as korean. that’s why he told us about her deciding to leave her homeland for japan.
this is a common refrain from the expat; the korean lady he’s with really isn’t korean. they’ll usually back this up by telling us about the many complaints his korean wife has about her coutry, or that she just morphed into a non korean as she soon as she married him. (dram man acutally said that once.)
the fact of the matter is that they married korean women born and raised amongst all the rest of the korean pigs crowding in at the trough.
that’s a fact they can’t escape no matter how much they try.
*******
pawi’s advice for the waeguk-in 외국인(外國人):
if you are in korea:
don’t like it? may i interest you in the airport? don’t like it? get out. it’s that’s simple.
if you are outside of korea and for some reason want to visit:
don’t go. stay away. if you like korean food, go to a korean restaurant. if you like korean drama, rent them. know koreans from afar. that is the best way.
if you are an expat who threatens korea with consequences:
korea will suffer no consequence of their kind treatment to almost every one of you on this board. can you tell me about some real acts of racism on the part of koreans towards you? CAN YOU?
all you really can say is some little kid starred at you too long or some drunk korean ajoshi told you to go home. you know, as i wrote the above, i was reminded of a black couple whose house was just down the street from ours. they woke up one mornig to find the word ‘n8gger’ sprayed painted on their door.
do things like that happen to you in korea? nope.
and lastly, to the expt who’s angry the korean man won’t kiss his ass:
you better go japan. those guys there will do anything for you.
Somebody mentioned in this thread somewhere that people come here to find out about other cultures and then get all disappointed and indignant when they find out other people live differently.
We should all try to respect each other’s cultures, bottom line. What we should also remember is, we are not in any way obliged to LIKE the culture.
This is a good thread. Most of us in the discussion here are commenting based on actual experiences that we’ve had in Korea, as opposed to assumptions and stereotypes. Ex.: the Koreans rapping to the Nigerian guy, or some of my students assuming that I’m rich and walk around wearing next to nothing all the time because I’m American.
Give us a rest, pawi. The fact is, my wife is still Korean (I confirm this every time she beats my children). She complains about Korean public behavior just like many, many other Koreans (it’s not just us goddamn foreigners, you know) who have made the choice to emigrate, or who have lived abroad and come home. I’m not the one who wrote the Chosun Ilbo story that’s the topic of this thread, either.
And yes, things like the black family’s experience have happened to me in Korea. I made the mistake of displaying an American flag outside my home on July 4th, for example. It was not well received and I was threatened with violence by a neighbor.
I know you didn’t learn it at home, but think now on The Golden Rule and see how it applies here.
According to CS Lewis, Most people do not truly understand the Golden Rule.
It doesn’t mean, simply, be nice to one another and just get along. I’m talking about the Christ version of it, not the Rodney King one. Furthermore, it was directed primarily towards those on the receiving end of hurt or injustice, not the other way around. Why? Because it says, love one another as you love yourself. You love yourself despite the ugliness, flaws, and defects of character that you know all to well about yourself. To love others as you love yourself means to love others in the same way despite their flaws and defects as well. Christ goes one step further and says love your enemies as well.
The Golden Rule recognizes that the world is a fundamentally fucked up place and will stay that way as along as the universe remains in its fallen state. It also realizes that you yourself are equally capable of mistreating others as others are to you and therefore you are in no position to judge. In its most rigorously defined form, it encompasses the highest level of grace, forgiveness, and unconditional love, and is therefore, impossible to practice for mere mortals.
It is a message for those with grievances (that means you guys, not the Koreans).
Sorry for the long-winded theological dissemination, but you asked for it.
pawikirogi, give it a rest!
You don’t think there’s racism among Koreans? Just how high are you? Have you read the Korean comments on Naver to the Chosun Ilbo article that this thread is based on? There’s a good amount of yang-nomming going on.
I personally was hit in the face by a Korean guy in Seoul, for no apparent reason other than the fact I was walking with some English-speaking kyopos and a cute native girl. I was dressed like a geeky student and I tend to be over-polite. The guy bashed me in the face, swearing at me, and then his buddy ran out with a broomstick and was threatening to beat me with it. I had no idea why. People circled around but no one helped. I had literally no idea why this was happening other than that I was with a Korean girl — and we weren’t even holding hands or anything like that. That was an extreme, but please, racism pervades Korean culture. White guys get both good and bad sides of the racism. Black guys, well, come on now… What’s that swear they use for black people?
We’ve veered from Korean “personal space” to Korean racism, but since we’re here anyway . . .
I’ve observed that foreigners get flustered by Korea not being up to “Western standards” with regard to sexism and racism. Sure, they’re not burning crosses in Korea, but they have some frighteningly backwards things said public discourse that would never fly in the West. Pundits here still maintain that women should never earn as much as men, because men have a family to support (!). Or they toss out the old chestnut about maintaining “racial purity,” (laughable to anyone with a high school grasp of genetics).
All that said, Korea has undoubtedly made massive strides forward on these two fronts over the past fifty years. No one can deny that racial and sexual issues are much more progressive now than before.
So, will this progress continue, or are we witnessing a reactionary backlash against this sort of social change? Has Korea become as tolerant as they’re gonna get, or will they eventually be on par with that “Western standard?” I keep thinking about the large increases of half-Korean babies being born here, and wonder where they will fit (at least the ones who aren’t Superbowl MVPs).
No, it means both.
I won’t even ask you why you think Koreans have no grievances. Evidently you missed “Han Week” when you were attending 한글 학교.
Your theological thinking (plagiarized as it is) is muddleheaded.
Pawi, did you grow up in Appalachia? You’d fit right in.
I no longer live in the States yet I will still comment on something that is done there that I believe to be out of line. I will continue to do it here. Hell, I’ve never been to Europe but if I have a “bone of contention” with a nation state in that region I’m gonna speak up.
Now your hatred of those who, as you say, whine, (while most would merely call it voicing an opinion), may seem sound to you but it benefits nobody. Change and adaptation are healthy and necessary in a changing environment. Criticism and scrutiny are necessary towards that end. If you don’t like it then you have the OPTION of leaving. Notice I didn’t use the imperitive as you did. But you’ll have to leave the planet because that’s the only way you’ll get away from it.
Conformity may have served Korea in the past when it needed a single mindedness to dig itself out of the devastation of war. It will not serve Korea well in the future. Korea needs innovation and imagination. And its leaders should listen to those who are whining, filter out the useful from that which is not. That would be the only way to keep in touch. You’ve got to admit that they are a bit too insulated to understand the hardship the average man or woman has to go through.
What the hell are you afraid of? Why are words of criticism so abhorant to you? Like I’ve said before, only the truth bites. Are you afraid of, “Oh my God, now you’ve done it. Mass’rs gonna come and kick ass.” Nobodies upstairs comin down with the belt.
I see many wonderful things as well as disconcerting things. I will continue to comment on them.
Now I know you complain but your criticism is directed at solely one group of people. Do you think everything else is beyond reproach? Do you think Korea is? See if you can utter a single criticism of your beloved Korea. Really, you should try it. It’s cathartic and there’s not a thing anyone can do to stop you.
“if you are in korea:
don’t like it? may i interest you in the airport? don’t like it? get out. it’s that’s simple.
”
So, Pawi. If you complain about a few assholes in the States, that means you shouldn’t live there?
#137,
Well said. I think Pawi feels threatened by the fact we have a good understanding of Korean society, maybe even better than his since he apparently hasn’t lived in Korea as long as you and I have.
Besides, Pawi, how can society improve if nobody shines a light on its inequalities?
128,
The shirt goes on first, it’s the pants I frequently forget.
Remember, in the local vernacular, this level of understanding is called “misunderstanding”.
‘Has Korea become as tolerant as they’re gonna get, or will they eventually be on par with that “Western standard?”’
absolutely arrogant. korea shouldn’t strive to be on par with the western world when it comes to tolerance. might i serve you some 9-11? korea needs to be selective in it’s tolerance. for instance, the koreans should treat filipinos, thais, and mongols with the same dignity and respect they afford the westerner. korea should also embrace it’s bi racial children since most of their american fathers have just up and left while hollering about korean men mistreating korean women.
i think i’ve oinked enough tonight.
Thank Sejong Korea is better than some of her angry defenders and not as bad as some of those who left home for a decent job but instead found a soapbox.
Pawi outdoes himself again. I know scores of dudes with mixed kids here, none of these Dads have abandoned their progeny. I do, however, know of just as many deadbeat Korean Appas, but making a generalization from such a small sample would be wrong now, wouldn’t it?
Your theological thinking (plagiarized as it is) is muddleheaded.
Plagiarized? This is coming from someone whose avatar is of a leader of a nation who once plagiarized his entire PhD thesis. Did you have trouble understanding what I meant when I wrote “According to CS Lewis…”?
Feel free to explain in further detail exactly why it is muddle-headed based upon your own, I’m sure, extensive reading and thoughts about the subject at hand.
#147:
Jeez, pawi, I don’t even know where to start. I agree aaronm’s sentiments regarding mixed families, and if you have any citations and evidence to the contrary, I’d love to hear it. I also agree with your sentiments about Koreans’ mistreatment of south-east Asians, and the part about the oinking.
I can be a little slow sometimes, so could you please explain what you mean by “might i serve you some 9-11?” I don’t want to pounce on you for saying something stupid until I’m sure I understand what you’re saying.
I believe you’re a newcomer, aren’t you? Welcome to the Marmot’s Hole. May I buy you a drink? Nevermind that angry loner at the end of bar.
I’ve been living in Korea for 3 years now and have never seen a country with such discontent and rudeness. Every country has problems, but not of the frequency at which this one does. And table manners! Watching these people eat is f$%@ing disgusting. They chew with there mouth open and make this smacking sound and tell you, you have bad manners if I don’t poor your drink! They b#$%^ about everything, like theres some conspiracy against them. Being a foreigner out here, you’ll feel like a zoo animal, because people won’t stop stairing at you with that same stupid look. And to finish this comment up, FAN DEATH!, come the f$#@ on!
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