After interviewing 50 foreigners living in Korea, the Chosun reports that the actions of some Koreans can be considered “rude” if held up to a “global standard.” Put it simply, the Chosun article states that it is the result of some Koreans not recognizing and respecting other people who are “different”. It also recounts the experience of some of the interviewed foreigners.
First off is a Canadian English teacher who felt like “a monkey in a zoo” everytime he took a shower after working out in a local gym. The reason being that the other Korean males in the shower room always stared “with interest at the physical characteristics of his lower abdomen.” The next story involves a French woman who felt uncomfortable every time a Korean adult came up and patted her 7 year old daughter’s cheeks and head. The French woman adds that “she understands that it is a Korean tendency to pat a child but that she feels uncomfortable and wishes that the Koreans won’t do that.”
Another Canadian, a vegeterian, said that he eats home made sandwiches, because he got tired of dealing with Korean restruants. He recounted an experience of going into a restruant and ordering bibimpap without the beef and fried egg. But his order came with the beef and the egg. When he told a restruant employee about the beef and the egg, the employee said, “They forgot about it because they were busy and that it’s better with the beef and the egg. So, you should just eat it as it is.”
Another restruant experience involves a USFK soldier who went into a restruant and ordered pilaf without the egg. The order however came with the egg and the soldier did as he always did in the States and sent it back. However the restruant owner got angry kicked him out and after saying that he’s “bad luck” sprayed salt on the entrance. Needless to say the soldier wasn’t too happy with the experience.
All in all foreigners here take issue with the fact that Koreans do not respect the wishes of those who cannot eat certain foods because of their religion or other beliefs. An Australian vegeterian summed it up by saying “I wish Koreans recognize the fact that there are people who are different.”
As for bumping in public spaces, two Americans and a British citizen took issue with the tendency of Koreans to bump into them and move on without apologizing. The British citizen even added that a British guide book stated that “people should be careful in Korea because of the tendency of Koreans to bump into and elbow other people.”
The last experience involves an Australian whose coworkers asked him personal questions such as which school he graduated from, his marital status, etc. during his first dinner party. The Australian was very embarrassed at such personal questions being asked during a first meeting.
The article ends with some “global manners” that Koreans should take notice of. For the article, the Chosun included a picture of an American woman grimacing while selecting socks because of a Korean woman stretching her arm and pushing herself onto her.
The above article is getting a lot of attention in Naver with 2,757 comments so far.
153 Comments
OK, now I get annoyed from time to time because people do things that are rude in Korea, too. But “global manners?” WTF? OK, some of the suggestions were OK, but the stuff about 신체 접촉이 있을 때, 어린 아이를 대할 때, 식사할 때 and 초대 받은 자리에서 is pure bullshit. “프랑스의 일부 고급식당에선 입장시 휴대전화를 카운터가 맡아 보관한다?” Good for them. “한국식으로 내 수저로 집은 음식을 상대에게 권하거나, 설거지를 해주겠다고 남의 부엌에 들어가면 실례다.” Yeah, it would be IF this were the United States, which it ain’t.
I don’t like the vibe in the ROK.
A gyopo friend of mine, a male, describes Korea as the “land of rudeness.” Believe it or not, I for the most part disagree with him.
However, I don’t think there is a need to physically push people around. Not to mention the chronic problem of smoking in areas where it is prohibited.
I am about 240lbs (even heavier when bulking) and if I can walk down the street or through underground areas here in Seoul without bumping into or pushing people, so can the average Korean.
#1,
The hub of tu quoque arguments.
Several years ago, a group of well-intentioned freshmen gave a presentation on “foreign etiquette,” a hodge-podge of examples mostly relevant to North America. Afterwards, we had a chat about the diverse assortment of peoples known to Koreans as “foreigners.”
News articles like this are fodder for the comment section. I especially liked “힘있는 외국인에 사대하는 언론.” A number of other posts included the term “사대주의” in the title.
Some of the situations are pretty lame and SHOULD be seen as culture differences.
A Kenyan guy I met a few years ago would get very pissed off when Koreans would rap around him or do the yo, yo, yo thing.
The fact is, most foreigners feel like monkeys in a zoo a some point during their stay here.
I rarely if ever felt like a monkey in a zoo in Japan.
“foreign etiquette” really means “Western etiquette”. No such etiquettes for the Pakistanis and Nepalese. Offering these people dish full of pork meat is plain ignorance and bad manners — yet nobody talks about it.
I’m in the middle position between those who say “when in Rome…” and those who say “bad manners else where are also bad manners in Korea”.
As pointed out by some commentators at Chosun, staring at people, pushing people and not saying sorry were never an accepted culture in Korea — they’re just plain rude. Somethings are not cultural, while some are.
Korea is the country that wants to be accepted as a globalized place, so it’s up to Korea to identify and fix the shortcomings.
“OK, now I get annoyed from time to time because people do things that are rude in Korea, too. But ‘global manners?’”
For “global”, read “multicultural”.
otherwise, I do think the Korean notion of “public” is not as distinct as westerners consider the difference between “private” and “public”. “Out on the town” in one sense is even more relaxed than “being at home” for young South Koreans. So, what these comments could be pointing out is that they don’t feel “in public” as if they are part of the “general public”, with special homogenizing conduct, but that the customs they perceive alienate them.
They fail to mention the tendency for South Koreans to excuse foreigners for every act, because they are foreigners.
#3:
I think people mistake “polite” for “courteous”. I think South Koreans are polite in the sense of one’s social position and status dictates how others should act towards one.
But, as far as treating each individual in a certain universalizable way that guarantees a safe, fair common space, that is a work in progress.
I’ve always wondered if foreigners would be happier if they were treated equally and exactly like Koreans.
Make that “would Western foreigners be happier if they were treated equally and exactly like Koreans.
When I first got here, I asked my students (always adults) if staring was an acceptable form of behavior, they said no.
I then asked them why people always stare at me. They said it was because I am a foreigner.
South Koreans do not excuse foreigners for every act. English Spectrum memories anyone! That’s only one example.
When reading articles like this, the mature and tolerant reaction should be to try to learn from it, no matter how ridiculous you think the complaints may be.
I think what is truly lacking on Korea TV is programming that tries to teach tolerance to kids.
I distinctly remember that when I was a kid growing up in Canada, there were many TV shows that showed kids visiting and hanging out with friends from cultural minorities. Simply put, foreigners weren’t presented in the same superficial manner as they are presented here to kids. There was a concrete effort to teach tolerance.
These shows would have an Anglo or Franco-Canadian kid or an American kid experience the culture of his friend, a member of a cultural minority.
I distinctly remember many of these shows. Just of the top of my head:
there was one where the kid went to the synagogue with his Jewish friend and celebrated Hanukkah with his family; another where a kid ate a traditional Pakistani meal with his friend’s family during Ramadan; another where a kid went to a ‘powwow’ with his Native-Canadian friend and learned to play the drum; another where the kid learned to play a steel drum made by the uncle of his Barbadian friend; another where a kid visited his West-African friend and listened to his grandmother tell traditional West-African stories; etc.
I seriously doubt it, cm. Acting Korean would require “situational awareness” of the status of others. That’s fine as long as everyone in the room is your junior or inferior, but I think most westerners would chafe at having to endure the full rigor of Korean custom.
well, this is a fork in the road.
Korea can be more westernized like Japan, and get more props from people who matter more to Korea’s economy.
Korean can stay the status quo, and become the same as current mainland China, and react late when China decides to clean up and get more props from potential “customers”.
Business is business.
Suit the customer, Korea.
I see a point of improvement in yet again emulating Japan, whereas the other way is nonprofitable.
Keep in mind most Koreans claim yang ban status, but they obviously didn’t ever get any handed down yang ban manners from home.
Really obvious, no?
There are, of course, some cultural factors/misunderstandings.
Well, I don’t know about “힘있는 외국인에 사대하는 언론” (힘있는 외국인? What 힘있는 외국인?), but I’m almost inclined to agree with the 사대주의 part. I’d say the same thing if the NYT started telling Americans to stop talking in a loud and opinionated fashion because foreigners don’t like it. In fact, I’d even wager that a lot of the ugly nationalism and rhetoric of victimization that we occasionally see would just disappear if Koreans (sorry to use the generalization) would just gain the cultural confidence to stand up and say, “What? Foreigners don’t like it when we (insert behavior here)? Well, too fucking bad.” Instead, you have mainstream press like the Chosun crying “We need to adapt our ways to them, even in our own goddamn country.”
Of course, it wasn’t just imagery. There was also commentary, generally narrated by the kids.
wanna put up a fight?
ask them if
“ni aemi, aebi ga,
guh rut kae ha ra go,
ga reuh chi dun?”
Now, I’m not responsible of the results.
Generally, School teachers of all people love using this line.
It’s an attack of triple effect.
Mom, Pop, and the person.
I’ve never met a Korean who didn’t flush up red in the face when hearing this line.
Imagine it coming out of a foreigner’s mouth ! In Hangul !
ha ha .
Shame or props to school teachers for using this line.
I haven’t decided if they deserve the right to say things to school children.
“I think what is truly lacking on Korea TV is programming that tries to teach tolerance to kids.”
There’s no multiculturalism in South Korea. There’s a quasi-culturalism, but it’s more like the way East Asian travelers quietly observed western habits in factories and social settings and studied foreign behavior.
Either one is Korean, or one is not. There’s the polite way of treating non-Koreans, and then there’s the impolite way. Both are customarily acceptable. I seriously doubt that will change, and I expect Koreans (and East Asians) will accept the consequences in lost profits and fewer immigrants, just to maintain the “right” way.
If I had to guess, I’d say not. But it would probably be better for us. At least it would help us adjust more.
…a picture of an American woman grimacing while selecting socks because of a Korean woman stretching her arm under her shoulder.
I wonder what the expression of the Korean woman is? She’s getting hammered.
A lot of the complaints are pretty weak. As for the USFK soldier, I can’t help but wonder how he dealt with the situation. Did he bellow rudely in English? Did he use pidgin Korean without the appropriate yos and imnidas? He might not realize it but he may have been just as rude as his hosts.
Strikes me that a lot of folk use the manners of their home country as a yardstick for Korea, and call it “global manners”. Then ignore or don’t recognize when the locals are being nice — which they do in their own way.
Like the nice gentleman who whispered that I was handsome in my ear when I was nude in the spa. Ok, bad example.
On the other hand, Koreans can do things that are pretty shocking to a westerner. Like my old boss who said upon meeting my new co-worker, “David, please go on a diet and see a dentist.” She said please! Or the endless targeting by drunk buffoons and teenagers who for some strange reason think it’s hilarious to yell out every little bit of pidgin English they know at you. Anyone ever had the urge to scream random eastern expressions at Asian people back home in the street? Didn’t think so.
BTW, everyone will be happy to know that the situation in North Korea is the same. Our guides in Pyongyang used to think it was great fun to tell one of the members to run back to the bus after each outing, “to kill some idle flesh.” And once at a checkpoint, to break the ice, a soldier pointed to each of us in turn and called us animal names — an ugly rat, a hairy money, a fat pig etc.
Viva le 매너 한국어!
IMHO, one simply needs to focus their mind on being more positive and project themselves in a more positive manner into their surroundings. Such usually cuts through many minor annoyances that one could pass off as cultural differences.
Mind you, I know that there are some situations that occur that are not just thoughtless but are done with malice but there are jerks anywhere on the planet and not just here.
I still find that many of the younger Koreans that travel are quite cosmopolitan in their composure and have better manners than their elders, upon occasion.
I’ll have to agree with WJK. Unfortunately, Korea doesn’t have quite the clout as the United States, an example country in Robert’s point. If S.Korea is to do business and survive a sandwich between Japan/China, it has to treat their most important customers as they want to be treated as.
As for SomeguyinKorea’s comment,
“I distinctly remember that when I was a kid growing up in Canada, there were many TV shows that showed kids visiting and hanging out with friends from cultural minorities.”
Come on, be fair. It was just this year S.Korea’s foreign population reached one million - which isn’t that many to begin with. To expect multi cultural education when there are no visible minorities around,… well.. what can I say. At least they’re starting to talk about race/multi-cutural related subjects, is a step in the right direction.
Marmot:
“But it would probably be better for us. At least it would help us adjust more.”
Perhaps with every flight to Incheon, each passenger could get a complimentary hanbok set, appropriate for the season. Wearing traditional clothing in public would certainly ease the process!
Inboard passengers should be so lucky.
No, I tend to agree with someguy, maybe not re the programing on TV, but perhaps teaching a little bit of tolerance at school…
Kids here study “Moral studies” at school, and it’s a hugely exhausting course, from elementary school through to high school. Here is the curriculum:
http://tigger.uic.edu/~lnucci/.....s/chu.html
I invite everyone to search through the list of topics for a single mention of respecting people who are different. Sorry folks, not important enough.
On the other hand: Love of nation & state, patriotism, correct postures toward the national flag & the national anthem, desire for unification, brotherly love, and heartfelt thanks to the patriots of old…
etc etc
In regard to many Korean nationals, they seem to see themselves as more important than those outside of their family.
Why else would they jump ahead in lines or drive through a group of people at a crosswalk?
Why else would a younger Korean (especially ajjuma’s) bump into or or push aside an elderly Korean and not think anything of it?
I’ve seen it countless times on the subway and in department stores.
It happens elsewhere around the world, but remember, Koreans are so polite and kind while “others” are barbarians.
Well, I think there are few issues in that article. Really, Korea has little in the way of “social grace” or refinement. And I think as foreigners we all feel that at some time or another, whether it’s an ajuma on the subway with elbows of steel or just the WTF, can’t you wait for me to get off the elevator before getting on?
The other issue is that most service people run on a script. You can’t deviate from that script in any circumstance! God forbid a little independent thought or some cognitive process. You must not move from the script! I see that in people from the lowly waitress to “expert” doctors. I can’t change that prescription because the script says more antibiotics.
The quoted foreigners were American, Canadian, and French. Okay, so Canadians aren’t 힘있는 외국인.
My g/f calls me a 힘있는 외국인 sometimes. Ok that was a lie.
I guess there are a couple of things to point out here. One is Koreans should stop calling people foreigners.
How about “citizens from other countries”?
The customer service sector in the past here in Korea has never been geared to “the customer is always right” as is in the West.
It is changing that was as capitalism continues to dominate the economics here.
And let’s face it, how many Koreans go to a Korean restaurant and have the special orders? This just does not happen. Koreans eat their food the way it is always made and do not deviate away from that conformity.
We westerners are the opposite.
Give me this but minus that and extra this. Hold this and heavy on this. And if they get it wrong we want the manager.
We are sort of assholes in that regard. Well some are, I do not act that way even back in the States.
How long have most of you been here? A couple of years? Five? Six, seven?
Let me tell you back in the early 90’s you went outside of Itaewon or the Yongsan area you were stared at continuously like either a movie star or a jackass, you choose!
And thats just here in Seoul. Imagine Daegu, Pusan, or Daejon and other places down south.
90 percent of the foreign population was foreign business execs, diplomats and military, the English teacher boom did really happen until the financial crisis which also was followed by the migrant worker explosion around the same time.
Korea has come a long way in just 10 years or so you can now go anywhere in Seoul and not be stared at like you are an ALIEN freak show!
Which may be why so many people get bumped into on the sidewalks of Seoul. The Koreans just treat you like they treat anyone else!!!!
I may be mistaken and a little off topic, but I don’t think the Korean constitution mentions anything about the rights of other ethnic groups in Korea.
Remember, there are no “naturalized” Koreans, just “foreigners with Korean citizenship.”
Yeah, yeah, I realize the whole ethnically homogeneous excuse thing is to blame.
Sure, it mentions foreigners in regards to the Charter Of Human Rights, but nothing about ethnicity in general.
If this is the case, why would or should they care about tolerating others?
It’s hard to produce hangul with your mouth… I can do ㅇ okay, I guess, and maybe ㅡ, but try to do ㄹ with your mouth
As a woman, I am thankful we foreigners are not always treated like Koreans.
Better for men maybe. Really, Robert. For many reasons, Korea is definitely an easier country to live in for those equipped with outdoor plumbing.
#27:
Of course, there’s less regard for individuals, but I doubt Koreans will pass up that much Confucianism.
My wife repeatedly criticizes me when I’m so “American”, i.e. courteous (and, she’s been to to the States, and several states in the “ultra-courteous” South, twice, if I let somehow “jump the queue” to a bus (if there is one queue), or fail to tell someone outside in the neighborhood or street to shut up. She always tells me, as a foreigner, I can shame people by criticizing them, wheareas she would just start an argument with the same reaction.
That’s just the “ppall-ee, ppall-ee” mentality at work. It might be working itself out. Most customers queue at banks now and respect the person at the counter. There is some courtesy on the subway platforms and escalators. But the Korean rush is probably ingrained now.
I’ve seen that a lot in Paris, actually, where idle youth will call Konnichiwa to every Asian girl they cross in the street.
The basis of interpersonal etiquette, whether in Korea or elsewhere is The Golden Rule:
“Treat others as you would have them treat you”
What a radical concept!
I assume this is when they’re not in the suburbs burning cars, I take it?
You read my mind, buster!
#23,
Well, the population of Canada was roughly 20 million when I was a kid. Immigration averaged about about 600000 per year and the immigrant population stood at about 8% , half of what it is now, and half of which was from Europe (so, roughly 1.6 million immigrant, half of which were European. Only 15 percent of the total immigrant population, 240000 people, were from Asia). Sure, that doesn’t take into account second and third generation Canadians, but it seems clear enough that back then, Canada wasn’t nearly as ethnically diverse as it is now.
Rudeness. Back in Germany half of the service was rude the other half of the experience was better, but to find someone behaving very friendly it happens often as surprise. Many Germans know the difference compared to the States and often they say the people there were only acting, only surface. In the service in Germany many say as an excuse: I can not smile all the time (it is not human). There were some campaigns for better treating of customers within the service like inside the once national Deutsche Bahn.
Also to improve the English skills especially before the World Cup 2006. Things are improving slowly.
So, rudeness is not unfamiliar to me, I don’t see the bump in someone as rude in Korea rather the bump into our car yesterday in the parking lot of our apartment. It seems it has happened in the morning and the driver left the place without giving a notice, probably a neighbor. But it is also something one can experience in Germany. Looking at the cars it seems to happen more regularly in Korea.
#31 makes a good point about customer service, but other than that, what a boatload of whingeing foreigners!
Is not the point of going abroad to see how other people live? If so, why complain about it when you find out they don’t live like you–and don’t particularly care if they live like you, either.
This, and not McDonald’s or Starbucks or pop music, is the real face of cultural imperialism.
It’s funny, no one ever bumped into me when I went to Korea, and I met several woman who I’d let bump into me all they wanted.
Hallelujah. Only problem is, the Chosun Ilbo apparently does care.
#42:
It’s only words! Which is exactly what my bosses say when I try to discuss terms and conditions in my contract.
Or, like students say, refusing to answer direct questions: oh, Teacher, we just wanted you to talk for a long time so we could practice our English!
It’s easy to endure criticism when you’re sure you’re right, but the process validates your sense of status.
AGAIN, by THEIR own admission, Koreans are so KIND and POLITE to FOREIGNERS.
They are not the barbarians, foreigners are the barbarians. They don’t believe in “I” only “we” remember.
They are never selfish. Have people forgotten this?
#42 You went to Korea? Did you ever live in Korea? Were you ever targeted by the Korean mass media, say SBS?
The article seems to be a mix of valid criticism/call for action and… well, retardation/out-of-context claims. But then again, that is to be expected, as cultural relativism and ethnocentrism is an ambiguous moral tug-of-war.
@ hoju_saram
“Anyone ever had the urge to scream random eastern expressions at Asian people back home in the street? Didn’t think so.”
@ mcnut
So, you want the people to say “citizens from other countries”? In Korean, that would be “Dah run nara ae suh on saram.”… true demonstration of how silly over-enforced PC can be.
breatrak, perhaps English teachers in Korea need Martin Luther King Jr figure to fight against SBS and Chosun Ilbo.
Especially when the Sino-Korean 외국인 means just that. Not, of course, that Korea is free from the PC word play, either:
http://news.naver.com/main/rea.....0000044043
I often find when foreigners talk about “tolerance” in Korea, they really mean “I want to do whatever the hell I want.” Foreigners preach “when in Rome” on any number of cultural matters, until something infringes on their own pet issues of domestic violence, cats, dog meat, and imported beer.
I’m used to getting bumped once in a while, and I’ve grown to prefer it to the way we did things back home, where the smallest degree of incidental contact would produce gasps, curses, and looks of extreme indignation. So somebody bumps your arm . . . grow the fuck up, and quit running to the newspapers with all your problems.
The biggest “cultural” thing that pisses me off is the zoo animal treatment. Can’t go very far without kids—and adults—shouting, giving catcalls, and otherwise behaving exactly like I’m a zoo animal. On what planet is that even remotely polite or appropriate behavior? I get really annoyed with the “Koreans are just curious” or “Koreans are being friendly” or “Koreans just want to talk with foreigners” lines when used to justify behavior like that that is meant to be anything but friendly or polite. That’s my own pet peeve, I guess.
Aren’t you the guy who stirred up the Lee Dong-wook thing in the first place?
Well, not really, although he did mention my article at the end of his. (My letter was a small refutation of an earlier article on a completely unrelated topic).
Anyway, I think discriminatory visa regulations and racist banking policies are more worthy of articles than “that lady smudged my Pumas.”
I blame Smee. And Roh Moo-hyun.
May I make the obvious point that 외국인 does not mean foreigner; it means non-Korean. Thus you have this sort of scene in the news: a popular Korean restaurant in NYC, the owner says “we get lots of Koreans, but also a lot of foreigners.” By which he means the locals. A Korean cannot be a 외국인 any more than a Jew can be a goy.
I think what we are seeing in Korea is a complete breakdown even of Korean manners, now that kids are not raised at home anymore but in hagwons where they are customers i.e. kings. But Korean manners (in contrast to manners in the West)have always been what you observe only in regard to your betters, superiors, to the upper class, etc. And many foreigners who complain about rudeness here would find themselves treated very differently if they looked rich.
As for food - Korean restaurant service really is awful. Any kind of special requests and they will a) accept them, then b) ignore them then c) laugh and shake their heads when you complain.
“I often find when foreigners talk about “tolerance” in Korea, they really mean “I want to do whatever the hell I want.” ”
No, when I talk about tolerance, I talk about wanting more people to act civilized towards my wife and son. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were talking about this yesterday. She was saying that people have become more tolerant. Old men haven’t called her a ‘whore’ to her face in a couple of years and children and adults stare a bit less at us than they used to.
Perhaps #47, Koreans should practice what they preach for a change.
My only Korean female friend went through the same kinda shit your wife went/goes through Someguy. However, her husband is African-American so you can imagine.
The vegetarian thing mentioned is annoying. I understand that it’s not a big thing in Korea and kimbap places don’t love special orders. But nobody ever refuses to do it — they just say they’ll leave out the egg/whatever and then don’t.
Whatever, only rarely do I complain. But recently I was in a place, far far, from busy, and asked the woman — while she was standing in the kitchen — to leave out the egg. She repeated it back to me, oh no egg huh? Got it. And then she plopped it in anyway. All I wish for is consistency, one way or the other.
“And many foreigners who complain about rudeness here would find themselves treated very differently if they looked rich.”
Or, if one is just with Koreans, especially profs or older men. The same kids who yell and laugh every morning are too afraid to look at me when I’m with my wife.
It’s not only a matter for those with a choice. I’ve witnessed a dinner companion who explained very carefully her severe allergy and reaction to a particular condiment only to find it in the meal when it arrived. This wasn’t a case of failing to hold a standard ingredient in a dish, we had specifically ordered a dish which they told us didn’t use the condiment!!! Fortunately, my guest is a seasoned traveller (no pun intended) and checks everything carefully before eating….
To top it all GG tried to charge us for the replacement meal…
I was floored by my first trip to a major supermarket/department store (E-Mart, HomePlus, Homever, etc.). Skimpy outfits on beautiful girls aside, it was so off putting to try and buy anything without one of these vultures taking it out of my hands and placing the crappy substitute that they were hawking in them instead.
I am annoyed to no end as this is everywhere here and in pretty much every type of market. I have to use my elbows and body just to escape, but it does feel good toss their product back at them and take the one I wanted in the first place. However, countless places have lost a sale to me because of these pressuring tactics. I can’t just pick up a pair of shoes, a shirt, some underwear, or a box of choco pies to just look at them to decide if I really need them without someone butting in where they are not welcome. If I need help, I will definitely ask for it, but this is too much.
I also make sure I look at expiration dates on products, but even this is looked down upon…well, by the shopkeepers anyway. Some freaked out when I took some students to buy some snacks in their store. The kids wanted U.S. made Coca-Cola, but I noticed that they were over a year past the “Best by” date. I had them put them back on the shelves, and then the owner exploded on us. Needless to say, I took my business elsewhere.
I wish I could buy everything I need on-line instead of having to put up with so much of this nonsense.
#49,
Didn’t catch your last paragraph before writing a reply, but yeah. It seems to me that some Koreans don’t know how to behave when they don’t have the Korean grammar dictating how and when they must show respect.
#57,
For the money thing, yeah. I’ve had Korean cops at roadblocks treat me and my wife like crap because we were driving her subcompact. It’s a different story when I’m in my own car.
Oh, and the kid thing. Try working at a university. What I like the most is how the freshmen will use banmal with me, someone with almost 10 years of university under his belt and old enough to be their father, but they’ll use formal word endings with the sophomores.
…Then again, some people are just plain rude.
61, This brings to mind a conversation I had with a Korean Auxiliary solder when I was in the Army. While I was going through great pains to learn Korean language and customs, I never really followed them that closely, and would generally use 반말 with all of them and paid little attention to their age structure, generally treating them as my friends (with exception to rank considerations). When one quizzed me on why I did this, I explained to him, similar with your point, that no matter what, in Korea, no-one would ever treat me as their 선배, so there was no real point in me treating them as mine. He agreed all too quickly.
Now is a different story, but that was then.
#49 - No, I consider “tolerance” not being called “nigger” in the subway, or being otherwise verbally or phyically attacked for no reason. That’s what I’D ask for. I could care less about getting bumped into, cut on in line, people spitting, what have you. That’s just Korea, and it’s getting better all the time. I first came here in 1994, and it was far more rougher around the edges than now.
I wish as much effort was put into REAL matters that piss off foreigners here, rather than stupid bickering over table manners.
But see, no one wants to talk about THAT. How about a piece on the many verbal assaults on and sexual harrassment of foreigners? That’s pretty common, but far more serious than getting bumped into or cut in line.
But that would REALLY piss people off, now, wouldn’t it?
I don’t really buy Robert and WJS’ argument that Korean lack of concern for common space and for strangers in public (by cutting in line, jabbing elbows, etc) is somehow a Korean cultural trait, and therefore beyond critique. Once upon a time, Korea was known as the ‘land of manners’ under the Chosun Dynasty and while that most likely referred to strict adherence to the confucian standard, I would bet that Korean villagers in the Chosun Dynasty probably treated each other alot better than Seoul urbanites do today. So, it’s hard to claim that modern rudeness owes primarily to Korean culture or traditions. And, it’s not as if Koreans are defending a propensity to cut in line or never say ‘excuse me’ as something to be proud of as Koreans. Probably the vast majority would prefer living in a friendlier, or at least more orderly society. But, it’s a matter of collective action problem - that other guy is cutting in line, so if I don’t, I’ll never get to the front. Most Americans would probably also welcome the day before higher crime rates, when house doors could be left unlocked, people could hitch hike, and kids could go trick or treating without fear of being poisoned. I don’t think we proudly defend those traits as what it means to be American.
And, even if something is related to culture - does it mean we can’t criticize it or improve it? Take the “foreign zoo animal” custom. Korea is a highly trade dependent country, which gains alot through exchange with other countries. Any nation that wants to engage in trade and human exchange with other peoples and countries is going to have to drop the “zoo animal” practice.
And, Robert, my hats off to you, but I don’t see how you can handle working for a Korean boss. There are a few exceptions, but personally, Korean bosses really bother me - the total personalization of authority, the ass kissing and lobbying, the arrogance, the arbitrary last minute demands, the sneaky tricks.. well, I’m extremely grateful that I don’t have to put up with that to the extent that most Koreans in subordinate positions have to. This is a nice country to be rich and powerful in, not so great if you’re not.
Hoju Saram, interesting comments at the end of post #21. Was that a tour to Pyongyang? What was the context to the “kill some flesh” comment? What were you doing up there, sounds interesting…
#64,
You’re being silly. Don’t you read the English language press? Don’t you know there are only white-collar crimes in Korea?
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>> #53 “Thus you have this sort of scene in the news: a popular Korean restaurant in NYC, the owner says “we get lots of Koreans, but also a lot of foreigners.” By which he means the locals. A Korean cannot be a 외국인 any more than a Jew can be a goy.”
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Then again, maybe they don’t use the word “goy” but in Utah Jews (as well as other non-Mormons) are known as gentiles…
I didn’t experience much pushing and shoving and rudeness, but then I lived in little ole Jeomchon - Seoul isn’t the totality of Korea….
This is an amusing thread. It’s purely anecdotal, of course, but how would you quantify something as subjective as manners?
I’ll bet South Koreans who live outside Seoul would probably agree with most of what’s being said, much like people outside Paris or NY would tell you people in the “big city” are pushy and different from non-urbanites. They are because they have to be.
#68,
I’ve been to NY and Paris many times and I can honestly say that people in Seoul are pushier.
The problem is that, psychologically in a developmental sense, Koreans haven’t gone through what I’d call that ‘individuation’ phase by which the sense of being an individual with unique borders, boundaries, and space, has been developed. If this sense is lacking, treating others as beings with their own borders and boundaries wouldn’t follow. Why this sense is lacking in Korea or why it doesn’t develop as readily there as it would in other places in the world is anyone’s guess — maybe it’s got something to do with close family structures, Confucian values, or whatever. But I do think it’s a problem and most certainly leads to problems.
Alternatively, Koreans double dip the chip! Ewwwe. Chon-nom-deul!
Koreans can be as they want… It’s their country… But don’t expect them to be accepted as a country with decent manners anytime soon…. They can do as they want… It’s their reputation… If they want to ruin it let them…
abcdefg is right. In the West, manners are there to preserve everyone’s private space. In Korea, where this is no private space, manners are used only to show deference to one’s superiors.
While we’re dishing anecdotes:
Icy cold wind outside. An old lady is hurrying to cross the little parking-lot road separating one apartment block from another. A car about 80 yards off in the parking lot honks frantically at her. The old woman, who would have made it across in time if left alone, staggers backward and waits several seconds for the car to arrive and pass by her. Behind the wheel a fortyish biatch, angrily shaking her earrings as if at the granny’s impertinence in even THINKING to cross the road.
The old woman in the cold must defer to the woman sitting in the warm car because in “Confucian” Korea, money trumps age every time.
Cry me a river! People are rude in Korea, just as people are rude everywhere else in the world. I have met so many polite and eager to help people in Korea who have gone to extraordinary lengths to be helpful. One instance will stay with me for a long time: a woman in Yongsan offered me her umbrella in the pissing rain, and when I refused walked with me to where I was going despite the fact it was in the opposite direction she was going！ (Not to mention she was Hoooot!) In contrast no one would do that for me - not even in little ol’ New Zealand! Speaking of which: the personal space thing. Being from NZ, my personal space is about 6 feet in every direction. 4 Million people in a country 4 times the size of Korea means personal space is huge. Try 50 million people in a country a quarter the size and personal space shrinks! It’s a numbers game people. Get over it.
Nice sentiments, Stafford, but alas, even Koreans who have lived abroad make the same criticism of their country when they return here. Handicapped Koreans are especially critical. (We think we get the zoo animal treatment!)It is not a numbers game. Go to Holland, Hong Kong, Tokyo, any densely populated country in the OECD - see if you can find this kind of behavior.
We’re not talking about being packed into a subway car, where people literally cannot help invading another’s space. We’re talking of things like people driving into a block of apartment buildings at 5 a.m. and then honking for their friend to come out, rather than spend a few pennies on a 문자. There is a level of complete obliviousness to others here (the Korean word “남” is a cold one indeed) that you do not find in other countries. Also, though - and this is perhaps a positive thing, though I’m not sure - Koreans put up with others’ rudeness more than we do. Someone honking at 5 am in an American apartment complex would get a flower pot (if not a bullet) through his windshield. This is a great place to be a rude person, because the polite people don’t complain.
Sure, foreigners in Korea complain about a lot of nothing sometimes. However, until the day comes when I can walk down the street never having to round a corner to find a Korean mother squatting down holding a little girl with her legs spread eagle with a stream of piss shooting up in the air…well…there are some things that need changing.
If Koreans want to continue to view this as the common sense solution to a child having to go to the bathroom, so be it. But I choose not to.
The whole “Korea is crowded, you must understand” trope is utter bunk. The population of Korea in 1955 was estimated to be about 20 million, with only 1 million residing in Seoul, which means the density of the population was much less (try about 40% the current level). Before the Japanese improved public health and living standards Korea only supported about 12 million. Korean culture didn’t emerge suddenly in the last few years — these people were fucking rude long before they got crowded.
So there’s got to be another explanation. As for me, I think it’s the grinding poverty that characterized 4975 of 5000 years of Korean history, coupled with the Confucianist lack of any idea of “the common good”. If you wanted something, and waited for others to take their turn, chances are whatever it was would be long gone. That’s why Koreans crowd in like pigs at the trough.
#74
“This is a great place to be a rude person, because the polite people don’t complain.”
They don’t complain because the “rude people” don’t care if you complain. You can yell and throw flower pots, but you don’t exist until you confront the person face to face.
I had an incident in Korea where a truck hit me then took off. I was on the ground in pain, but a friend of mine ran after the truck and stopped him at the light and confronted him face to face. The man then acknowledged my existence, and reversed and sincerely apologized, and held me and oddly, even kissed my hand. But had I not appeared in this person’s circle of awareness, as inhumane as it sounds, I would have remained a mere object in his mind.
I think if Koreans want to have an international standing and improve their global reputation abroad, they will first need to deal with this backwards primeval mentality. They will need to include the “Other” in their circle of awareness, at an individual level, but also on a national level, recognizing other countries not as vulgar barbarians but as equal civilizations.
Everyone is missing the chance for some fun. I could complain that people ought to let subway passengers exit before boarding, but who’s going to listen to that? Just before the doors slide open you can tell who’s got ants in their pants about jumping on; I always impede his/her entrance by walking straight into them. For the motorists who jump into the left turn lane though they want to go straight I have a special treat. They accelerate and so do I. They slow down and so do I. Take them right into the oncoming traffic. My favorite though has to be the bus drivers who cross the double yellow lines and enter oncoming traffic to pass everyone. He’s driving right at me and I never leave my lane, thus forcing the driver to completely stop. He glares, I shrug.
Reckless and inconsiderate and absurd…you bet. I wouldn’t enjoy Korea as much if it, and I, weren’t.
Global Etiquette my ass. If it was Koreans visiting another country, then I understand if they are being rude sons of bitches there, but Koreans should be Koreans in Korea. I don’t understand why so many people bitch about their sad experiences in Korea if they can’t handle the way Koreans live their lives. They take it too personally. I mean, I do want tourists and other foreigners to have a good time there and all, but they should not forget they are in another country! Not theirs! It seems like they want the whole world to revolve around them and to adapt to their own personal “etiquette”. I understand where they’re coming from because I’m from the States and I get a little pissed about the way Koreans do things, but I don’t expect Koreans to start changing their whole lifestyles. Now just because most nations read left to right, should Hebrew and Arabic be forced to change too because it doesn’t go the “global” direction?
Also, do not forget that Korea has been a Confucian society for how long now? As much as we would like to respect individualism, Koreans follow a philosophy where the needs of the many come before the one. It has its pros and cons. I’m American, so I believe in individualism, but raised by Korean parents also make me realize and understand the Korean mentality. But the truck hitting the person and treating his as a mere object… now that driver just a dumbass. When I was in second grade and got hit by those Bongo trucks in Korea, I remember everyone in half mile radius rushing to me to make sure I was alright and tried to drag me to a hospital. I told them I was fine and ran to my grandmas, but the bus driver that dropped me off there grabbed the Bongo driver and forced him to come up the my apt and apologize.
Actually, the bus driver didn’t force him up. They both just came up to check up on me because I ran away from the adults (I was afraid of hospitals). The Bongo driver (Seoul Milk deliveryman) even called my place a week later to check up on me =)
Yup Confucianism. I once recall sitting in a portacabin in Qatar sharing coffee with a Korean manager, and out of the blue he says that “Korea was fucked up the very moment it adopted Confucianism.”
Seungyup, in my perspective, stopping after you hit someone in a truck would belong to “global etiquette,” something every country should follow, and yes everyone, no matter what country you live in, should abide by a global etiquette. A hit-and-run is inexusable in any country. And for you to call someone who does a hit-and-run just a “dumbass”? No sir, that was not only rude, in most countries that would be considered criminal behavior.
As far as your story, I’m not sure what to believe, that the driver attempted a hit and run but was forced out of his truck (your first edition), or he followed you (after you ran away, demonstrating you were fine). I can imagine the drivers running after you yelling out, “Are you ok?” And then everyone running to drag you to the hospital, while you’re running away… Seungyup, you have yet to master the art of story-telling!
In any case, I’m sure there are plenty of people who would stop after they hit someone in Korea. But from my own experience, I’ve witnessed and heard of more hit-and-runs in Korea than in any other country I’ve lived in. I talked recently to a neighbor of mine who looked badly beat up, and he said he was hit by a motorbike while getting off the bus. I can go on.
The point is, there is a global humanitarian etiquette that needs to be followed, based on an awareness and respect of other human beings that aren’t in your circle of friends and family. Koreans who don’t abide by this may end up in this situation when they go abroad: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/E.....orea/6370/
#77,
Nah, we was putting on a show because he was caught. He knew that if you told the cops that he had tried to run away, all he had to do was pull some bystander out of the crowd to testify how caring he had been to you in order to get off the hook.
A month ago, I was in McDonald’s. An English speaking expat who was about 6′3 was being rude and generally being a jack ass at an intimidated female order taker who was all but 5′2 teen ager. Apparantly she screwed up the order and she had the audacity to not speak/understand English well. The real annoying ones aren’t the Koreans, it’s those expats who think their shit don’t stink.
Seouldout #78 that was a really funny post - got a good laugh, thank you. I regularly drive the nehbu soonhwan doro (Seoul inner loop highway, and got tired of all the line cutting that goes on at exits. So, now I will just never yield - ever. The worst offenders are taxis, and I admit I gained great satisfaction by blocking one guy who tried to get in right before the exit - then he was just stuck there - awesome.
#79 Seungyup - Do you really think for a moment that most Koreans like it when some inconsiderate jerk breaks the rules and cuts in line in front of them, or slams into them when they want to get out of the subway, wrecklessly drives the wrong way down a street, or runs them over with his truck? These are the actions of a rude minority, badly in need of correction. Most Koreans would be happy to stop these guys.
Brendon,
I’m trying to understand your logic in #76. Somehow you come to assert that Koreans have always been “f***ing rude.” (And, by the way, using profanities is rude.)
You cite population figures, but what does the country’s population have to do with anything? It’s the proportion of people living in cities and the rate of urban growth that supports the “Seoul is too crowded” argument.
South Korea went from an 80% rural population to an 80% urban population in 40 years. (A world record, in fact.)
All city living is inherently more contentious, but that’s particularly true when the city itself has undergone explosive growth. Not only is it a bunch of newcomers, but they’re living on top of each other. That’s a formula for rudeness if I’ve ever heard it.
knickerbocker, I was wondering the same thing.
For the record, I’ve never met a rude Korean in my life, and always get warm, rather family-ish neukkim from any Korean I meet anywhere. Then again, that’s probably because I’m Korean, and have only dealt with multitudes of Koreans in the States and not so much in Korea where I haven’t physically been for more than a few (but memorable and lovely) months.
As for autob-illin’ and anecdotes go, I’ve been involved in 1 hit-and-run in my life- as a victim. The other people involved were a white couple who reamed my car from behind at a red light, on one, snowing evening. In any case, I don’t take it that criminal behavior like this, from anyone, ought to be conflated with the mundane sort depicted in the photo above of the ajumma reaching for socks. They are two definitely seperate issues, as far as I’m concerned.
global=”westernized”?
But then , how come Japanese services have no problem being “global”. No one accuses the Japanese of being anything but Japanese
Things have been getting better. And, since Lee Myengbak took over you will see a definite difference.
2008 is a new start for Korea. People will become internationalized and Korea will be more like Japan and Europe.
Maybe in ten years, Koreans will become more Western than even the Japanese. Don’t laugh. It can happen. Koreans can change quickly if they see the need.