The new E-2 visa regulations — the gift that keeps on giving.
This time around, lawyer and Ministry of Justice employee Lee Dong-wook shoots back at David Louis Quick and Brian Deutsch for Korea Times op-eds contributed on Dec 5 and Dec 8, respectively.
Firstly, Mr. David Louis Quick, an American English teacher, made incorrect claims in his Dec. 5 article, which can be summarized as follows:
(1). The Ministry of Justice seemingly made no attempt to understand the situation of native English teachers and the bureaucracy of their home countries.
(2). A criminal records check in the U.S. is only effective if it is conducted at a national level and the only way to be truly sure that the criminal check is conducted nationally is to have it done by the FBI.
(3). Prospective and current teachers will simply choose to teach in Japan, China or other countries, which do not require such an extraordinary burden to be borne by the employee alone
When one makes arguments, it is very easy for people to fall into the trap of emotional feelings and become very illogical, unless he is well trained in logical reasoning. He was too farfetched in many ways.
Take that, you non-lawyerly types! Learn your place and cower before the cold, steely logic of the Korean bureaucracy!
The Ministry of Justice, nay more specifically my colleagues and I have made every possible attempt to understand the situation of native English teachers and that of their home country’s legalities.
To take a few examples, we are maintaining very close contact with seven embassies _ the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa ― from countries whose citizens qualify for the E2 visa.
He also argues that it may take up to seven months to get his criminal record if he uses the FBI services. Thanks to my personal experience as a member of the New York bar and with experience working at an American court and the Korean Ministry of Justice, I can say he was wrong or at least very misguided.
There are several ways he can get his criminal record from Korea. Other than using the FBI service, he can use the following options:
(1). If he contacts a local police station by fax or by mail, he can get the documents sooner and notarized at the U.S. Embassy in Korea.
(2). If he is uncomfortable with the local police station, he can use a privately-run criminal check system, for example an online site (http://www.criminalbackgroundrecords.com), although he may be charged up to $59.95.
He needs to have the documents notarized in his embassy. However, in the process of notarization, he can be charged if he commits perjury.
For citizens of other countries where such Web sites do not exist, we are also in close contact with other embassies and can find reliable alternatives. For example, if there are other regulations that make it difficult to get a criminal record in a short period of time, we are willing to provide a grace period with a sufficiently reliable explanatory note from the relevant embassies here in Korea.
I can only hope that this is all true. But if it is, what Mr. Quick committed are factual fallacies, not logical fallacies. I only point this out, Mr. Lee, because you did. I’d also be keen to know what the deal is for nationals of states who are not members of the Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement for Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, i.e., Canadians. Will they or won’t they have to return to Canada once a year, as some schools apparently believe?
I have good reason to believe that the majority of E-2 teaching visa holders have no problems with these regulatory changes. Despite this personal belief, there is a strong outcry among the Korean people against the potential risks posed by some problematic English teachers.
Ah, now we get to the good stuff.
To name a few, Mr. Christopher Paul Neil, the serial child sex offender was detected while teaching in Korea with the false documentation. There were sporadic news reports about the holders of fraudulent diplomas and drug use this year.
Of course, I do not believe that every English teacher is like Mr. Neil. For that reason, my colleagues and I are working hard to understand the situation of the native speakers more.
Mr. Quick also mentioned in a semi-threatening way that “prospective and current teachers will simply choose to teach in Japan, China, or other countries, which do not require such an extraordinary burden… “
Between the two difficult tasks of not burdening too much on the E-2 visa holders and helping Korean students learn in safe environments, my colleagues and I myself will take a very cautious and balanced approach. But the bottom line is very clear: We cannot tolerate sex offenders in classrooms.
If Japan, China, and any other countries do not require such an extraordinary burden from English teachers and leave their children at the risk of being exposed to sex offenders and if many English teachers here opt for China or Japan to avoid the criminal record check, I do not have many choices but to lament about the safety of the children in China and Japan.
Because everyone in any country and regardless of whether they are children or not, need to be protected from sex offenders, drug addicts and fraudulent diploma holders.
I’m not a lawyer, let alone a member of the New York State Bar, but it’s my understanding that when one makes arguments, it is very easy for people to fall into the trap of emotional feelings and become very illogical, unless he is well trained in logical reasoning. Just ask the Korean press and Korean bureaucracy.
First off, as far as I know, Christopher Paul Neil was not teaching with false documentation. But even if he was, he had no criminal record in Canada, and was in perfect health. How would the new regulations have prevented him from entering the country?
Ditto goes for the guys with fake degrees and drug users. This is not to say that there aren’t some guys teaching in Korea with prior records of drug use or document forgery. If the new regulations can weed out these guys, great — I’d love nothing more than to stop reading about dumb-ass English teachers mailing themselves pot from home. But I’d be willing to bet that a lot of the guys getting busted for smoking pot or teaching on fake degrees have clean rap sheets in their nations of origin.
And given how widespread fake degrees seem to be, isn’t it just a matter of time before fake criminal background checks are circulating around? Sure, I guess it would easy enough to verify them, but then again, it should be easy enough to verify a degree, too, and we can all see what a sterling job the authorities have done with that.
I should also say that while I appreciate the Ministry of Justice’s determination to protect the nations’ children from sex offenders, it’s a shame that determination is not, apparently, shared by Korea’s educational authorities.
Secondly, I would like to mention Mr. Brian Deutsch’s Dec. 8 article titled “About Foreign Teachers.” At the end of his article he abruptly mentions: “And lately, I have the impression that Korean officials are actually trying to repel all its [native English] teachers.”
To this argument, I would like to say that he was wrong, very wrong. If we really wanted to force all teachers away from this country, we would not have had the meetings with consular officers. We would not consider having grace periods for the E-2 teaching visa holders.
We would not accept the declaratory affidavit notarized by the embassy as a temporary measure till the true and accurate criminal background record arrives.
If Mr. Deutschland is still skeptical simply because of his “impression,” please feel free to contact my colleagues or myself and we are willing to provide more detailed information and explanation.
Mr. Deutschland? Don’t feel bad, Brian. I hear Germany is a fine country, and at least he didn’t call you Mr. Douche.
For what it’s worth, I happened to agree with you, Mr. Lee, that Korean officials aren’t trying to kick all foreign teachers out, and that some of the foreign teachers complaining need to get a grip. But gee, Mr. Lee, what might give Mr. Deutsch the “impression” that officials want to kick him and his out? Could it have been the bevy of sensationalist news reports that sparked the Ministry of Justice’s move? Or, to use your words, the sensationalist news reports that sparked “strong outcry among the Korean people against the potential risks posed by some problematic English teachers”? Or heck, even take a look at the tone taken in the Immigration Bureau’s own press release on the matter (see here).
Let me be clear. I happened to think the ministry’s demand for a criminal record is a good idea. In fact, I’d like to think any country, before deciding to let someone in, would require visa applicants to submit clean bills of legal health. But then again, this is coming from someone who thinks collecting biometric data at the gate (like in the US and Japan) is a good idea, and I’d much rather have law enforcement and intelligence people running the background checks. I also happened to agree that something needs to be done to clean up the English teaching profession and improve the quality of teachers coming into Korea.
But let’s not bullshit ourselves. The new E-2 regulations do not constitute a rational, honest effort to improve Korea’s pool of English teachers. They represent, at best, an ad hoc measure to show the public that immigration is doing something to confront an “issue” largely created by a sensational, irresponsible press. And this is coming from someone who, as you can probably tell from my post below, thinks there really are issues that need to be addressed. If you want to improve the English teacher pool and prevent potheads and child molesters from entering the country, you’d begin by coordinating with other government ministries to put to death a failed English education system that seemingly favors young backpackers looking for a little fun and quick cash over trained, qualified teachers. You don’t want 20-something slackers from BC coming to Korea to toke up and otherwise disturb the social order? Fine — stop giving them jobs.
80 Comments
Hey, we all know only lawyers can use logic, right? The rest of us fools should be good little children and shut up.
Anyway, it looks like you can shop your background check to a jurisdiction in which you are clean. Yippee! But it’s OK because the background check will have an embassy notarization, which only means that the notary made a positive ID of you and you presented docs which as far as the notary knows are real.
At least it looks like the Immigration boys are doing something, which is the crux of this issue.
“Mr. Deutschland”
I think he means that metaphorically, as in, you know, “Mr. White teacher in general who has been fu**ing our women…”
“The English teacher can use a privately-run criminal check system…He needs to have the documents notarized in his embassy.”
So this company send me an email, I print it out and get it notarized. Hmmm…. that doesn’t…well…OK, sounds good to me!
So did the US Embassy agree to do any of this?
Mr. Deutschland? Don’t feel bad, Brian.
Maybe Mr Lee, grappling with the burgeoning headaches of immigration issues of the Fatherland and the Problem of Foreigners and What To Do About Them, sought solace over a brew at a local Hitler bar, and mistakenly conflated the name with the country, while drunk.
OUt of every single korean-korean I’ve talked to…they are really in support of the new E-2 rules. Even the younger generation.
They also think that americans need to wake up and come down from our high horse. They cite how freaking hard it is to get a visa just to vacation in the USA (check, interview, documented reason, etc). Of course, we americans are used to be privileged around the world.
I just want to say it’s nice to see good old-fashioned fiskings at the Hole again — two in one week!
Koreans never miss a chance to take swipes at Miguknom, do they? These new E-2 rules apply to all foreign teachers, including those from Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and Canada, which does not require prior visas from Korean visitors.
Koreans are a hair’s breadth or two away from qualifying for the visa waiver.
Someone explain to me this US visa waiver business. Last year Korean prostitutes & pimps were rounded up across the US, and I’ve heard from many Koreans how difficult it is to get a visa to the US now. But then in the same breath I am informed that from next year no visa is needed at all. What is going on here?
It’s called “false dilemma,” and although this fallacy is informal, the reason why Quick is mistaken logically and not just factually is that at several points in his letter Quick addresses concerns that have nothing to do with the E2 regulations but builds his arguments from there anyway. In particular, teachers will be required to submit criminal checks; but whether this will be “truly effective” or not (and Quick says that only those records compiled by the FBI or “at national level” would be “truly effective”) is an obtuse concern, ie not within the stipulations of the regulations. This sort of illogical argument needles through Quick’s letter which is based on one fat false dilemma anyway; and it is illogical because, frankly, it’s not only factually unsound, it proceeds from nothing. It’s impertinent.
Lee doesn’t write very well. But where he writes about illogic, he’s clearly writing about those arguments “misguided” by emotion or emotional “traps” — and he’s got a point. It’s obvious that the principal emotion propelling Quick is fear.
Anyway, I wish Quick the best. Presuming he’s legit.
“Someone explain to me this US visa waiver business. Last year Korean prostitutes & pimps were rounded up across the US, and I’ve heard from many Koreans how difficult it is to get a visa to the US now. But then in the same breath I am informed that from next year no visa is needed at all. What is going on here?”
Easy to explain…the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In case you haven’t noticed, Koreans are masters at squeaking until they get what they want regardless of how irrational it is or how it effects others.
When Mr. and Mrs. Kimchiland start to demonstrate the slightest concern about the 250,000 illegal (criminal) Korean immigrants currently in the United State (not to mention every other place in the world short of “Aprica”) maybe I will become a bit more sympathetic to their sudden interest in protecting themselves from what they consider to be undesirables from my country.
Until then… Koreans should sit down and shut the @&*# up!
Marmot, I think you hit the nail on the head here. These new regulations are clearly token gestures made to give the impression that the Ministry of Justice is doing its job. The new regs will not stop pedophiles and drug users from entering the country. They will, however, placate the masses that are still scared over what they saw on TV about foreigners.
“Because everyone in any country and regardless of whether they are children or not, need to be protected from sex offenders, drug addicts and fraudulent diploma holders.”
You forgot to mention psychotic trigger-happy students from overseas.
Ya know…the HIV check, did the morons at immigration even remotely think about how devastating it is to *tell* someone that they have HIV. I’m referring to the test that has to be done *in* country, after you’ve said goodbye to all your friends and family. What if you have to suddenly go home because some nurse 100’s of miles from home basically gives you a death sentence, and you’re *forced* to tell everyone immediately because there’s really no way to explain why you’re home suddenly.
Did they think about that? I’m guessing no.
About the HIV, they don’t care about you, and maybe they don’t have to (Their interest is ‘protecting’ the princesses that the white monkey is screwing in and around Hongdae).
And it isn’t a death sentence at all anymore, not if someone finds out early enough. So maybe it isn’t such a bad thing to get tested in the grand scheme….
open your damn eyes, US expat in Korea.
Did you know that you can’t immigrate to the United States, if you are HIV positive?
Sheesh.
You live 20-30 years, DOCUMENTED, with the drug regimen. Still, you’re HIV+ for life. No cure. Take a lot of Bactrim as a necessary plus.
One thing Korea doesn’t need is a transformation into Thailand, Phillipines, poor parts of China, where HIV is rampant. China, because those poor people in the bottom rung of life are selling their blood, just like the old days in the west. CCP will deny it. It’s public knowledge in the US, CDC.
If I found out I had HIV, not getting to teach English in Korea would be a low priority item on my feel-bad-about list.
“But gee, Mr. Lee, what might give Mr. Deutsch the “impression” that officials want to kick him and his out? Could it have been the bevy of sensationalist news reports that sparked the Ministry of Justice’s move? Or, to use your words, the sensationalist news reports that sparked “strong outcry among the Korean people against the potential risks posed by some problematic English teachers”? Or heck, even take a look at the tone taken in the Immigration Bureau’s own press release on the matter (see here).”
The press release mentions as a motivator for the new regulations a sensationalist piece by KBS…which is a Korean government entity, nonetheless.
Let’s face it, if the Ministry of Justice really wanted to improve the English teacher pool they’d start by changing the visa system that makes teachers at rotten hagwons no better off than bonded slaves. They could also start doing some proper quality checks on language schools.
Given its reputation, it’s a wonder Korea attracts any good teachers at all.
# 18,
Quacks like you really are really stupid! Just what the hell is ‘CCP’ and ‘CDC???’
THIS, is your ENGLISHEE lesson for the day…
Before you abbreviate you MUST spell it out, then you may put your abbreviation in parenthesis and only thereafter are you free to abbreviate.
For any other stupids out there, now YOU know so DON’T FORGET!
Sorry #18, I meant # 16, What a MORON!
CDC = Center for Disease Control
CCP = Chinese Communist Party
Seriously, Google it if you can’t figure it out in like, 12 seconds.
Excellent article, Robert, and many excellent comments as well. I have to re-echo comment #3’s question:
“The English teacher needs to have the documents notarized in his embassy…”
So we don’t have to go to our home countries after all? Which embassies actually agreed to this?
# 21,
I don’t remember “Google it” as being an Englishee rule! Why the fuck should I have to google it?
Not only was CDC or CCP not mentioned by WJK, nobody else mentioned them either. So, everyone should know within 12 seconds what it means or google it? I really never learned that rule!
Now, for the reality of the future English teaching with an E-2 VISA in Korea…
An Apostille was recently refused by the Korean immigration office. According to the state of Washington’s Secretary of State’s office, an Apostille cannot be refused under the Hague Convention without first calling the office that issued the Apostille and talking to them about it. Therefore the Korean immigration CANNOT refuse it without violating the Hague unless they first contact the office that issued the Apostille.
The Hague convention allows for Apostille to vary in their appearance from state to state. One of the reasons why Korea rejected the Apostille was because it didn’t look “exactly” like what they thought it should look like. The Hague specifically states that that is not a legitimate basis by which to refuse an Apostille.
GOOD LUCK E-2 VISA ENGLISHEE TEACHERS!
AND Lee Dong-wook can SUCK my DICK!
Hey, sea lawyer, tell us — what does the Hague Convention say about the penalty on Korea for failure to abide by your interpretation of its requirements?
The problem with so-called “International Public Law” is it depends on the willingness of state actors to behave in accordance with law. The Korean state administers law; it is not “bound by law”.
Lee, Dong-wook didn’t answer why…concerning the PLACES TO RECEIVE A HEALTH CHECK…Or, should he only respond to David Louis Quick? Mr. Lee should not waste his time responding to Mr. Quick as he should have more important things to do.
“The Justice Ministry has found — after some surveys on its own — that the Seoul Medical Science Institute, which is affiliated with the Health Ministry, conducts the tests, but the ministry has yet to determine which hospitals are linked to the institute to offer this service. The authorities are thus asking new foreign arrivals to check out local medical facilities to find where to go to take drug tests, even as the officials themselves were unable to produce such a list.”
THE KOREAN OFFICIALS ARE PATHETICALLY STUPID!!!!!!
# 24, since you told me not to not read or post on your website why would you respond to me here or why should I respond to you? Fly away!
#23
Considering that you’re presumably browsing this website with some sort of computing device, I would think that opening up a window and doing a web search would be simpler, easier, and better than rantignly pounding at the keyboard and thus exposing your blatant, churlish ignorance to everyone here (WTF doesn’t know that the CDC is FFS?) Just for your education, here are a few commonly-used acronyms that you might hear people using in casual conversation sometimes — just so you don’t have to throw a fit demanding they be explained to you:
FBI = Federal Bureau of Investigation
USA = United States of America
PBS = Public Broadcasting System
DAMF = You
Fuc# YOU Zonath
Frankly I’m with tbonetylr on the TLA (three letter acronym for Tbones benefit) thing, even though I don’t like his way of expressing it.
CDC has numerous alternative meanings (around 20 on wikipedia alone) and only the first two on google refer to the organisation you refer and that is a US organisation, and accordingly not necessarily familiar to non US know , and you meaning given for CCP comes down at number 7 on the list when googling (certainly neither TLA i familair to me).
It is a common courtesy to spell it out in the first usage for those not so familiar with its usage.
WTF doesn’t know that CDC is FFS? I am one fucker who didn’t know that the Center for Disease Control is the same as the googled “Farms For Schools”!!!!!
This kind of cultural arrogance is just as bad as Tbones ranting, I clearly remember such arrogance from famous US engineer who gave me a severe look of disdain and arrogant tone of reply when I asked him to explain some US-centric TLA he was liberally throwing around. His arrogance was somewhat defalted when I pointed out that the his TLA’s were unknown in europe - and realised from his puzzled response that the ignorant fucker didn’t know what a TLA was despite throwing them around all over the place.
“Hey, sea lawyer, tell us — what does the Hague Convention say about the penalty on Korea for failure to abide by your interpretation of its requirements?”
Brendon don’t be disingenuous, you’re better than that, what penaly applies is irrelevant. The point made was that it “cannot be refused without violating the Hague convention”, so disparagement on the basis of there being no effective remedy to such violation is fallacious.
“The problem with so-called “International Public Law” is it depends on the willingness of state actors to behave in accordance with law. The Korean state administers law; it is not “bound by law”.
Agree with your first point above, but on what basis do you say the administration is not “bound by the law”. Is this case in korea, surely not, or are you again talking about the lack of effective remedies for breach of the law by the administration.
Out of interest, what force of law do those hague conventions affirmed by korea have in korea, in the UK such affirmed conventions are generally effected by statute, thereby having full force of law in the UK.
#29
Cute. Let me be the first to apologize for my cultural arrogance. After all, I do realize that not everyone is exposed to things like CNN (Cable News Network) and Yahoo news, where they might run across such obscure cultural concepts as ‘CDC’. And yes, CCP is a rather obscure reference if you don’t know that commies, liberals, and/or the Japanese are three things WJK (Wacky Joke King?) mentions as the Ultimate Evil in every single one of his posts. So yeah, the Internet obviously not being anything like a world culture where people use things like common acronyms and Google (which is a website, BTW (by the way) — just in case you’re not culturally familiar with it), I sincerely apologize for assuming that anyone here would have any sort of faculty with either.
Sincerity? Meaningless when made with such facetiousness.
I am familiar with google as is clear from my post, and the internet is not an open world culture, it is a tool which is open to various cultures around the world, but that doesn’t make it a world culture, its use is by implication subdivied into language groups, and cultural subdivisions. Non-english speakers, even english speakers who are non-americans tend to follow news feeds from their own languages/cultures not US centric ones. As you might guess I rarely follow CCN news feeds preferring to follow BBC wordl news feeds. And koreans and others are even less likely to spend their hours following local US news!!!
As you note,
Since this is turning into a thread hijack, I’ll keep it short. The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation - I apologize on behalf of Arghaeri for cultural insensitivity and failure to explain fully what the TLA being used refers to) also mentions the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) in many of their news postings. It’s a fairly large and relatively newsworthy organization. I’m even willing to bet that (gasp!) several Korean news outlets have used the acronym in the past. Anyhow, if you really want to nitpick more about my cultural insensitivity, there’s an open thread just around the corner — this one’s for ranting about how blatantly stupid the new E-2 (that’s a visa) requirements are, apparently.
That was funny! tbonetylr thought Brendon followed him over here.
Let’s get something straight. This is a blog. There are certain people whose style is going to be more full of esoteric language and symbols than others. So what? Don’t get bent. Either look up their meanings or ask outright. Here’s another possibility. Skip over them! Chances are your life will not be too severely effected.
why google anything? All I have to do is read the rest of the thread and listen to you guys rant and swear at each other. Much more amusing (and easier since I don’t even have to open up a new window, type in my search terms and then spend time reading through the results) than looking it up on Google.
Zonath, let’s be friends in 2008.
tbonetylr, despite what Sonagi says, my English is impeccable.
@16
“open your damn eyes, US expat in Korea.”
sounds like pawi, lumping every expat together in a way that implies we all think, act, and are the same.
I guess when you have a thread about English teachers, you run the risk of it devolving into a heated discussion of how poorly written the posts are. It’s tempting to take the high ground and say ya’ll stupid, but on a different day, it might be me squalking about acronyms and thumping my copy of Strunk and White. Sigh.
Don’t forget spelling. “Squalking”? Yikes.
Zonath, learn to read….
You were the one using insulting language )WTF FFS etc) effectively calling people ignorant arseholes for not knowing some TLA’s that are vary familiar to you, and arrogantly proclaiming a world culture in which everyone should know what you know. That the cultural arrogance… not the failure to explain the TLA’s, but your attitude to someone having the cheak to ask what they mean.
I merely said its a common courtesy to include the meaning on first usage…..
Hey, by the way whats “Strunk and White”?
Nevermind I’ll google it…
#42
My attitude was towards the idiot way in which tbone asked (demanded, really), not the fact that he did. I was calling him an ignorant asshole because he was being rude and insulting. If you took that as ‘cultural arrogance’, that’s your problem, I guess. You didn’t ‘merely say’ that it was common courtesy, you took my comments out of context, made fun of a typo (which is a rather silly thing for someone of your limited writing ability to be doing) and threw around ridiculously loaded terms like ‘cultural arrogance’. So seriously, take a pill or something.
QUOTABLE QUOTES vol 1
compiled by pawikirogi
‘open your damn eyes, US expat in Korea.’ wkj
’sounds like pawi, lumping every expat together in a way that implies we all think, act, and are the same.’ cmm, talking about the above comment
‘Koreans never miss a chance to take swipes at Miguknom, do they?’ sonagi
‘Koreans are masters at squeaking until they get what they want regardless of how irrational it is or how it effects others.’ creo
‘When Mr. and Mrs. Kimchiland start to demonstrate the slightest…’ creo
‘You forgot to mention psychotic trigger-happy students from overseas.’ cine
‘(SILENCE)(NO WORDS)(NOT EVEN A WHISPER)’ cmm
‘i’m often mistaken for a movie star.’ cmm
‘yeah, i think you need to shut up and get back to that movie you’re trying out for.’ pawi
‘..as in, you know, “Mr. White teacher in general who has been fu**ing our women…” a-letheia
‘Their interest is ‘protecting’ the princesses that the white monkey is screwing in and around Hongdae).’
a-letheia
‘this is interesting. i should highlight it.’ pawi thinking to self as he reads a-letheia ’s posts.
‘
‘
Mr. Lee is wrong. According to the latest email bulletin from the American embassy:
“The U.S. Embassy cannot provide a background check or fingerprinting service, and we cannot notarize, certify, or verify the authenticity of background checks or diplomas.”
And later:
“Regrettably, the Korea Immigration Service (KIS) has placed incorrect information on its website concerning services U.S. embassies can and cannot perform. As of this writing the “New Release: Mandatory Requirements of Criminal Background Check and Health Certificate” on the KIS website contains incorrect information about the length of time it can take to get a criminal records check in the U.S. and also states erroneously that the U.S. Embassy can notarize or certify background checks. We have asked that the incorrect information be removed from the KIS website and we regret any inconvenience or misunderstanding that has resulted from their explanation of our services.”
In addition to that, he’s terribly wrong about getting a local background check. My home state of Maryland rejected the fingerprints I had taken by Korean police. I’m only saved by the extended March 15th deadline.
Instead of clearing things up, Mr Lee just further proves how poorly the government is handling the situation.
# 36
What am I thinking NOW?
I’ve seen the misuse of acronyms one too many times on this site and I just wanted to make a point.
QUOTABLE QUOTES:
“This nation [the United States] must remain western in it’s culture and primarily european in it’s population.”
Who said that?
I agree with the the first part of Dogbertt’s quote.
The second is not really needed as long as we assimilate the noobs well enough. In the long run, I don’t think that either is an issue since about 80% of Americans are at least partially of European blood (with an increasing part being Europeans from Hispania.
Pawi,
You must be the only one in the whole world that cares what I have to say.
Thank you.
Happy New Year!
‘who said that?’ dogbert
i did. but it’s a pipe dream. more easy for a colored guy like me to accept it. you?
Race has nothing to with culture or national identity. The US does a remarkable job of integrating millions of newcomers from around the world into our society every year, and our newcomers are, for the most part, willing to adapt. They want their children to learn English and fit in.
I’m not sure who these “Europeans from Hispania” are, but the number #1 exporter of people to the US is Mexico, which sends us twice as many as #2 China. Judging by the faces of my students, Mexican immigrants are of mostly indigenous ancestry, and in fact, an increasing number of border crossers are members of indigenous groups from the highlands of central Mexico.
PC teacher, Sonagi.
Just shut up.
Reality does not fit.
Here’s wishing all the Marmoteers a happy New Year.
I’m predicting a new Korean Wave in 2008 — an anti-crime wave as young native speakers of English around the world stop before they
1) Light a joint or snort a line
2) Rob a bank
3) Sleep with underaged kids
4) Shoot or stab someone
And say “Wait! If I do this, I’ll never be able to work in a South Korean hagwon!”
wjk is as articulate as Bamm Bamm Rubble.
hey pawi, do you have your own blog? I’d absolutely love to read it.
#50 Thanks Judge Judy for answering my question. It’s freakin annoying that you’re more likely to get correct information from this blog than from the Korean Immigration Service.
#44
Like I said before, learn to read.
My very first comment was that I agreed with TBone on the TLA thing, EVEN THOUGH I DON’T LIKE HIS WAY OF EXPRESSING IT. (i.e I addressed his attitude.) I then supported this by pointing out that there were several alternative meanings of the TLAs. And pointed out “It is a common courtesy to spell out fist usage for those not so familiar with its usage). All fairly neutral and inoffensive.
I then quotes your comment “WTF doesn’t know that….FFS), pointed out that I didn’t for one, and then pointed out that this was just as bad as Tbones ranting. Your addressing of his perdsonal attitude at #28 was fine, until you added the unecessary insults bringing everyone else into the equation (WTF doesn’t know FFS) effectivel calling anyone who doesn’t know an arsehole. In CONTEXT it is clear that I was referring to your insulting comment, not the mere failure to observe the courtesy I previously referred to which in any case was WJK’s failure.
WHERE IN THAT DID I MAKE ANY COMMENT ON YOUR SPELLING!!!! I only made reference to another TLA (FFS) that I had to look up on google oly to find Farms for Schools, before working out the meaning you intended or was the typo you referred to if so I was fully unaware it was a typo, what should it have been??)
You then went off on one with facetious insincere apologies at #33 to my fairly innocuous post in support of explaining TLA’s at first usage.
You have an amazing ability to defelct your own writing, you don’t appear to consider “Who The Fuck” and For Fucks Sake” to the whole world to be loaded terms but complain that the use of the term “cultural arrogance”in the context of such comments is, GIVE ME A BREAK?
To top it all in response to a totally imaginary insult to your spelling you insult my ability to write,[Insult my typing and editing skills, if you like], and sorry for the “loaded term” but that’s just more arrogance from you.
http://www.angryasianman.com
#53
“Race has nothing to with culture or national identity.” Spoken like a true American, although some of our Korean brothers and sisters might disagree, as is their right.
Actually, what we wrote is in agreement for the most part, although you were certainly nicer in how you chose to express it.
My point is that the question of the US remaining western in its culture and European in its population (per the quote Dogbertt put up) is moot because the population will remain mostly of Western culture and European blood for the forseeable future.
As for the Mexicans, you made me Wiki it (which I try not to do as general rule): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....thnography
As you noted, Mexico is the single largest source of immigrants and most Mexicans are of at least partial European heritage. Pure-blooded Indians make up about 12% of the population. The bulk of the population is mestizo (mostly euromestizo) and white.
Even if Amerindians go to American at three times the normal migration rate (which I think is reasonable, since they are the poorest in Mexico) the majority of Mexican migrants are at least partially European. As for the Western part, even the Amerindians have been heavily westernized (being mostly Catholic and all).
As for your class, that is a sample of…. your class. OK, actually it is the population of your class, but I trust that you get the point.
BTW, I think you had a pretty good idea of who“Europeans from Hispania”are since you spend the bulk of your post talking about Mexicans.
#59
And like I said before, learn to write.
You know, it’s also common courtesy to edit your own posts for spelling and punctuation, not to mention grammar. Just letting you know.
Anyhow, you inferred that I was calling anyone who doesn’t know an asshole. Like I said before, your problem. But hey, I apologize again for your overreaction. I really only meant to call Tbone an asshole, and as far as I can see, he’s the only one I actually did.
As for the whole issue of ‘cultural arrogance’ you pointed out with your amusingly self-congratulatory anecdote (oh sorry, I mean ‘fairly innocuous post’), so what? I think you’re being oversensitive, and missing the mark here, I truly do. Even if there is some ‘cultural arrogance’ going on here (other than your own in asserting that we should all be following your code of personal etiquette), you’re not exactly helping your case by being an absolute turd about it.
@60 Funny. And thank you for giving an answer to my question. Pawi doesn’t really answer the questions that I asked in previous threads. Most likely because he probably couldn’t answer them without sounding stupid(er) or as (bigger) racist/hater.
#62
Still deflecting your own writing.
The inference was entirely yours, you’re the one who said “WTF doesn’t know ….FFS”, I gave my opinion that this was as bad as Tbones ranting. You disagree, so what?
The anecdote was a personal example which came to mind because of your attitude, it was true, and commented on by others after the meeting of various nationalities. It was given to illustrate the point of intolerance given to persons not in the know about “common” TLA’s and was certainly not amusing. The words I used in the anecdote were “I realised from his puzzled response”, not “I was amused by…”, or “was pleased to see…”. If you wish to interpret self-congratulation then go ahead and overeact to my comment, it was not intended that way.
“You know, it’s also common courtesy to edit your own posts for spelling and punctuation, not to mention grammar. Just letting you know.” Absolutely, I’ll try to be more careful from now on, but then I’m not the one overeacting by making up imaginary spelling slurs and calling people turds.
Mr. Lee Dong-wook, Esq. gets a well-deserved fisking in the Korea Times:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....16652.html
#61:
It is correct that a majority of Mexicans are mixed, but so are a majority of African-Americans and Native Americans for that matter. Mexicans are hardly “Europeans from Hispania” culturally or racially. Even obvious colonial legacies like Catholicism are distinctly Mexican. Moreover, Mexicans of mostly European ancestry tend to be concentrated among the elites, who do not pay coyotes to guide across the scorching Sonoran Desert.
“Generally speaking, the genome research confirmed what was already obvious about the mixed origins of the Mexican population. The project concluded that Mexicans are the product of the mixture of 35 ethnic groups.
Roughly speaking, the Mexican population was calculated to be 65 percent indigenous and 35 percent non-indigenous (European, African, Asian). “
from http://www.mexidata.info/id1442.html
“An African-American, for example, on average will find that he or she has about 20 percent European ancestry, says Tony Frudakis, founder and chief scientific officer of DNAPrint.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/.....-stct.html
Would you call African-Americans “Europeans from Africa”?
you should.
I still remember, when I was reading Roots as a junior high kid.
I realized how fucked up things were and how these people acquired their last names.
My English teacher almost didn’t let me read it, saying I might cheat and watch the film.
Those plantation owners raped their slaves, and the children were extra slaves for them.
To get graphic, watch the film, Rosewood.
In general, white people don’t like to talk about things like this.
Blood on them.
Dude, you guys are related. By rape, 2 centuries ago. With some marriages.
How did most Koreans acquire their last names?
We just don’t like to talk about things like this with kyopos. HTH
do you really not know, Mr. Dogbertt?
Why don’t you like gyopos?
I don’t know. Why don’t you enlighten me, Gundamaniac?
65.: Thanks for heads up, Ut videam. That Times article gives a clear, level-head rebuttle, while not shying away from obvious issues in the Kor-
Oh my God, did they really mispell Sean Hayes’s name!?
#67 They would be mixed, unless you are a believer in the one-drop rule.
The Census seems to split the difference between the two reports we cited, with about 50% of Hispanics being white, 3% being black and 47% being “other” (which would presumedly include Amerindians not naitive to America - the country, not the continent).
http://www.s4.brown.edu/cen200.....onPost.pdf
Of course, that includes hispanics from Cuba, the rest of Latin America and Iberia, so 2/1 number you cited may be correct if you exclude those other groups.
If it is true that Mexicans are not westerners by culture, then perhaps there is some justification to slowing the immigration rate to aid in assimilation. I don’t care much about the ethnicity part.
Of course, if goes without saying that anyone trying to slip in through the Sonoran Desert needs to be cuffed, stuffed and shipped back. That goes the same for any Irishman or Limey who overstays his visa.
I believe racial designations on censuses and other documents are self-determined. Half of Hispanics may claim themselves as white, but that does not mean that their ancestry is mostly European. You are correct that some other Latin American groups like the Cubans have a different ethnic makeup than the Mexicans.
Thats OK, Italians and Greeks didn’t use to be white either.
Who says they are now?
dogbertt, I will defer the explanation to a local Korean for you.
In 2008, I want you to make more friends with local Koreans.
Just remember that, most of them have to have been ssang-noms in ancestry.
I still want to know what you have against gyopos.
#76
Riiiiiiiiight.
This seems like a good time to sign off on this thread.
why, sign off?
address the issue.
dogbertt IS racist, n’est-ce pas?
is this a protected item in the US expat community?
Hey, gentleman, if you think Korea sucks that much, why do you simply get the fuck out of the country. It seems like the country treats you better than you do deserve. Simply be thankful and be civil with Koreans for providing you with a decent job. Otherwise, who knows you may be kicked out of the nation for your filthy mouth.