The European Parliament has passed a resolution calling on Japan to apologize to and compensate women it mobilized as “comfort women” during the Pacific War. No word yet, however, on when said body will call on European governments (i.e., the governments the parliament actually represents) to apologize for raping and pillaging over half the world’s landmass between the 15th and 20th centuries and compensate the victims.
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88 Comments
I’m not holding my breath. It took 250 years for the British Crown to simply declare its acknowledgment of the events of the Great Upheaval (the topic of Longfellow’s Evangeline, for you former English Lit. majors).
Maybe they’ll change their minds if Japan suddenly cuts off their supplies of Nintendo Wiis/DSes, Sony Playstations/PSPs, and manga comics!
yes, i think we should let japan slide on comfort women issue since every nation did something bad in the past.
I, too, hope that Westerners stop making these resolutions, but for a different reason: I’m tired of seeing the Marmot’s ill-thought-out, half-formed, and intentionally obtuse tu quoque arguments that accompany every one of them.
Silly Marmot! He just can’t understand that in terms of evilness:
colonialism < colonialism PLUS institutionalized rape
there is a big difference between appologising for things done by the previous generation to people who are still alive or who’s children are still alive and apologizing for things done 200-1000 years ago.
You are invoking a classic logical fallacy, just because you are a hypocrit doesn’t mean you are wrong.
Colontos,
Kindly provide us the link to your popular, well attended blog. Otherwise, why don’t you stfu.
the koreans should no longer look for japanese apologies and/or remorse because neither of them are going to happen.
no, what the koreans (and chinese) should do is continually promote awareness of japanese behavior prior to and during ww2. the emphasis of such promotion should be focused on caucasians since the japanese only care about the opinions of whites. embarrass them in the west. that’s the way you humble the japanese; you talk to their gods.
‘why don’t you stfu?’ wang
why don’t you? why not let marmot handle marmot?
‘
That, or he can’t see how nations that destroyed entire societies are in a position to cast stones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Potato_Famine_(1845-1849)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Highlands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Bush_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
and more specifically this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....#Apologies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/prin.....77,00.html
The white man has more than enough on his plate without having to concern himself with Japanese history.
I wonder if the signatories included Germany and Italy, who had their own slave slaves in World War II? And I wonder how many Thai and Filiipino sex slaves were were provided for US soldiers during the Vietnam War?
Also, the following is from an article talking about prostitution in Cambodian, where women, including women imported from Viet Nam, were provided for the 20,000 UN peacekeepers who went there in 1992:
I hate the hypocrisy of the US and European resolutions on “comfort women, but Korean hypocrisy makes me angry. After the Korean War, Korea created its own “comfort women” system for UN soldiers. Below is a link to a 1961 Korean newspaper article that talks about the registration of Korean “comfort women” for UN soldiers. And, yes, the article did refer to them as “comfort women.” It also said that even a woman legally married and living with a foreigner had to register herself as a “comfort woman.”
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=567
I’m afraid you’re wrong. European imperialism outlasted Japanese wartime abuses — in Africa, for instance, decolonization didn’t begin until the 1950s, and only really got going in the 1960s. Portuguese colonies — after long independence wars — were freed only in 1975, and Zimbabwe wasn’t freed from white minority rule until 1980. So yes, the victims of European imperialism and their children are still very much alive, and still suffering from the experience.
Your barrage of links does not change or address my arguments, which I’ll spell out for you for probably the fourth or fifth time:
1. The Japanese situation involves institutionalized rape in addition to everything that the Europeans did, so it’s worse.
2. The victims of this rape are still alive and could potentially be compensated; they have not been.
3. The victims are still living and thus could get some satisfaction from an apology; one has not been offered.
4. The Japanese have been and are currently “whitewashing,” neglecting, or outright denying the atrocities that took place, which makes the lack of apologies/compensation all the more galling. The Europeans, as a rule, have not been known to do this (small exception for some French textbooks that were scrapped).
Germany committed arguably worse atrocities at the same time as Japan’s, but no one is calling on them to apologize or compensate. Why? Because they already did. Brandt kneeled in Poland, Koizumi kneeled at Yasukuni. See the difference?
Apologized by the former prime minister Mirayama, and compensated by Japan-Korea Treaty on Basic Relations. It’s a done deal. What’s Yasukuni has to do with wartime prostitutions?
It’s a memorial to the folks who instituted it, for one thing.
“It’s a memorial to the folks who instituted it, for one thing.”
What? A memorial for the Korean pimps who gathered the Korean comfort women?
I didn’t knew that! Fascinating how you learn new things everyday….
“the koreans should no longer look for japanese apologies and/or remorse because neither of them are going to happen.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....d_by_Japan
#11.4
Be careful with such gross generalizations. The collective guilt argument only goes so far and can be applied to anyone, including Koreans.
OK, point by point, if I must.
OK, I concede that although the Europeans shattered entire societies — from which, at least in Africa, many have never recovered — engaged in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, set up concentration camps (see the Boer War and Mau Mau Rebellion, for starters) and, for instance, in Namibia, engaged in outright genocide (all without an apology, mind you), they did not, as far as I know, engage in institutionalized rape. At least outside of the southern United States. I’ll assume, for the moment, that massive sexual exploitation in the colonies brought about by devastation of local economies and the establishment of racist social systems doesn’t count.
And no, what Japan did was NOT worse. Leaving aside that if we really want to discuss European imperial history, I could cite tons of atrocities committed in the colonies — so many so that it would render any discussion of “who was worse” rather silly — Japan only colonized Korea for 35 years. The Europeans were in their colonies for far longer, and did far more damage to those societies — damage that has lasted far longer.
The victims of European imperialism — which survived long after the Pacific War — are also still very much alive. Nor have they been compensated, unless you want to count loans floated to corrupt client dictators… along with plenty of guns.
Again, the victims of European imperialism are still alive, too. And that’s not counting the generations born after decolonization, although frankly, they’ve been just as victimized by the destruction of their societies by the Europeans as their mothers and fathers. They could get satisfaction from an apology, too. Hey, I agree that Japanese apologies have been insincere, but at least they offered one — the Europeans have not even done that much, nor does it appear they will do so anytime soon.
I’m not in a position to judge European textbooks, but I do know that US textbooks don’t, as a general rule, go into all the bloody details about US imperialism in the Philippines and Oceania (including Hawaii), gunboat diplomacy in Latin America, or what kind of state we established in Liberia. And let me ask, do our textbooks describe slavery in the American South as mass institutionalized rape, even though that’s clearly what it was? And what’s particularly galling is that while nothing in the way of an apology has ever been made concerning these crimes, the US Congress still managed to find the moral high ground to demand greater sincerity from Japan concerning the comfort women.
Partly, although I think it’s inappropriate to compare Germany and Japan — as barbaric as it may have been, Japan never did anything that comes remotely close to the Holocaust, and frankly, the two biggest crimes against humanity committed during the Pacific War, objectively speaking, were the dropping of the atomic bombs and the firebombing of Japanese cities. Unless, of course, you think systemic rape trumps the intentional slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians. For the record, though, I think Japan SHOULD — LIKE Germany — take it upon ITSELF to come to grips with its WWII history and apologize/offer compensation. That’s different, however, from saying third parties who screwed a far larger percentage of the world for far longer (and, given the mess the Europeans left behind in Africa, it could be argued far worse) without even a hint of an official apology have the moral high ground to be going around demanding apologies.
Moreover, I might point out that Germany’s apologies cover only one thing — the Holocaust. They’ve never apologies for invading its neighbors, despite demands from nations that suffered greatly at the hands of the Wehrmacht like Poland. They’ve paid reparations to victims of the Holocaust, but never to governments of states victimized during the war. Nor, since you brought up the German example, has a German head of state or German head of government ever apologized for the Genocide it perpetrated in Namibia, nor has it offered compensation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....a_Genocide
Perhaps, them, Japan really IS following the German example, at least as far as apologies to ex-colonies are concerned.
“Perhaps, them, Japan really IS following the German example, at least as far as apologies to ex-colonies are concerned.”
That’s a bit unfaire.The Japanese HAVE appologized. Man, even Koizumi went to the Independent Museum (on his own inniative), gave an appology there.
Compensation was done. Now whether that was enough,I agree, is left do discussion (although I think that the LDP has a large responsibility in fucking up reconsiliation).
tomojiro — My bad. You’re right — regardless of sincerity, at least Japan apologized, and offered some sort of compensation. Satisfactory? Perhaps not. But it’s a lot more than Germany has done.
Institutionalized rape not enough? How about medical experimentation on humans? How about the whole name-changing business? How about beheading contests? The fact is, whether or not Europe did more damage because they were there longer, the Japanese set a new standard of brutality and cruelty, one that the Euros have never really matched outside of Europe. The Europeans did far worse to themselves in the 30s and 40s than they ever did to anyone else.
And it isn’t as if we should give the Japanese credit for leaving after “only” 35 years. It wasn’t voluntary, you’ll recall. If the war had turned out differently, Korea would really be part of Japan now, and the Korean language would be well on its way to extinction. The Euros left on their own.
Now the Marmot moves from decent arguments to really bad ones:
[quote]And that’s not counting the generations born after decolonization, although frankly, they’ve been just as victimized by the destruction of their societies by the Europeans as their mothers and fathers.[/quote]
Totally bogus, and you know it is. As has been argued by many on this blog, this would require everyone to apologize and compensate for everything that has ever happened.
[quote]I’m not in a position to judge European textbooks, but I do know that US textbooks don’t, as a general rule, go into all the bloody details about US imperialism in the Philippines and Oceania (including Hawaii), gunboat diplomacy in Latin America, or what kind of state we established in Liberia. And let me ask, do our textbooks describe slavery in the American South as mass institutionalized rape, even though that’s clearly what it was? And what’s particularly galling is that while nothing in the way of an apology has ever been made concerning these crimes, the US Congress still managed to find the moral high ground to demand greater sincerity from Japan concerning the comfort women.[/quote]
There have been apologies for slavery, but more importantly, there has been real work done to fix the problems created by it. The comparison between US slavery and the Japanese is even more off-base the the Euro-Japanese comparison. My high school textbooks mentioned all of the above, by the way, including the rape aspect. Slavery was not institutionalized rape, by the way, though it allowed for it. Let’s be precise here.
[quote]Partly, although I think it’s inappropriate to compare Germany and Japan — as barbaric as it may have been, Japan never did anything that comes remotely close to the Holocaust[/quote]
I’ve seen estimates that put victims of the Japanese at 10 million. Holocaust is known to be 11 million. And while Japanese racialism was less precise than that of the Nazis, it should be pointed out that none of those 10 millions were Japanese. Nothing even remotely close? Actually, it’s pretty damn close.
[quote]and frankly, the two biggest crimes against humanity committed during the Pacific War, objectively speaking, were the dropping of the atomic bombs and the firebombing of Japanese cities. Unless, of course, you think systemic rape trumps the intentional slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians.[/quote]
…and here we see what the Marmot’s problem really is. He, like many others, is obsessed with finding what “his people,” be they Americans or Europeans did wrong (which is fine) while ignoring anything done by others (which ain’t fine). The a-bombs the biggest crime against humanity? Did you really just say that? Ever heard of the rape of Nanking?
I’m not going to get into the reasons why dropping the a-bombs was the right thing to do, though it was. And yes, for the record, I think that the systemic rape of hundreds of thousands is worse than the death of hundreds of thousands in A WORLD WAR. One is necessary, the other ain’t.
Yes, yes, I understand your argument, Marmot. The Euros and Americans shouldn’t tell the Japanese to apologize. We get it! So why, then, do you think the Japanese are the only ones subject to this kind of pressure? It must be racism, right?! The poor Japanese! It can’t be because THEY DENY THAT THINGS HAPPENED. Marmot, I notice you get nice and indignant when the Japanese deny facts about the comfort women. Where’s that indignation now?
Let’s sing the Marmot song of historical injustice:
White people are bad
Everything they did was bad
America is bad, too
Everybody knows it’s true
Japan is a little bit bad
But, shh, don’t say anything about it
Because you’re white and so you’re bad
Oh, those white people are bad!
See, folks, I’m playing the Marmot’s game here. That’s ok because I know his game and I know that I’m playing it. His game is to draw you into not even an argument but just a list of facts, so that when you say “Japan did x!” he can just say “yeah, but germany/america/england did x, x, and x!” which is not really meaningful. Of course the euros did some bad things. If Japan were to call on them to apologize, I’d be right in line. What’s wrong with the Marmot’s argument is the following. The euros did not say that they never did anything bad. They said that Japan should apologize and compensate. Now, you might say, the euros are hypocrites. And you might be right! But what the euros said is still correct. As adeline said in #5, just because you’re a hypocrite doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Japan should apologize and compensate, and no amount of transference, liberal guilt or self-hatred will change that.
“But hypocrits!!!111111″
No. Stop. Japan should apologize and compensate. And acknowledge, first of all.
“But..!!111″
No. Stop.
“I’ve seen estimates that put victims of the Japanese at 10 million. Holocaust is known to be 11 million. And while Japanese racialism was less precise than that of the Nazis, it should be pointed out that none of those 10 millions were Japanese. Nothing even remotely close? Actually, it’s pretty damn close.”
“the Japanese set a new standard of brutality and cruelty, one that the Euros have never really matched outside of Europe”
Well, the genocide of Native Americans (as many as 100 million) and the famines caused by the governments of China (15 million, conservative estimate), Russia (40 million), and North Korea (1 million, conservative estimate) also seem cruel to me.
Any word about the resolution to call on Mongolia to apologize for Genghis Kahn’s antics?
All I find in the google is laudatory stuff, e.g., silk road, etc. And he didn’t even get the trains to run on time.
All this talk of “institutionalized prostitution” is interesting.
Just the other week in a Chicago suburb, 3 Korean “massage ladies” and 1 Filipino girl were found beaten to a pulp by their paper-holding pimp who was not Japanese but “gasp”…Korean. Seems like they wanted to escape back to Los Angeles or Korea to work a normal job at a restaurant instead of having to tend to Korean customer’s “needs” and their pimp got a little peeved.
However, after reading the posts here, I am convinced that this is definitely not institutionalized prostitution. Koreans are on a higher moral ground than Europe, Japan or any other nation (to which Korea feels jealousy) and are incapable of institutionalized prostitution. Funny how stories like this are hardly rare today and pop up everywhere from New York city to the Phillipines to Russia. Oh, but it’s OK..all of those Korean pimps are totally guilt free. The ladies are doing it on their own.
#20
Uh huh… so yeah, absolutely. Japan should apologize, we get it. But you’re still not addressing why it’s really worthwhile for the European parliament to be wasting time and resources asking countries outside Europe to apologize for atrocities they committed. Especially where there are plenty of unacknowledged atrocities lingering in the background of so many European countries’ recent pasts. Atrocities that, y’know, the European Parliament could actually begin to apologize and compensate for.
But yeah, you’re absolutely right. I completely agree with you that it’s entirely banal and disgusting that people would start comparing and contrasting atrocities, as if somehow being a victim of a ‘lesser’ atrocity would make that victim feel better, and that anyone who would say something like:
is either off their rocker, totally insensitive, or worse.
Seems Mr. Colon. feels he has something to prove. Will be interesting to see Robert’s response when he wakes up and sees this.
I immediately plead guilty to the charge of being insensitive. Off my rocker? I could believe it.
I have one question for everyone. If on Tuesday, someone beat the living shit out of you for hours, and then on Wednesday, somebody beat the living shit out of you for hours AND gang raped you, and then claimed it didn’t happen, what would you call the worse day?
I kind of agree with Colontos on this subject. Robert does seem to think that the topic of comfort women is off the table for western nations, and I’m not quite sure why. As number five pointed out, being a hypocrit doesn’t mean you are unjustified in judging something.
Perhaps what countries NEED is for other countries to criticize them and demand apologies. Lord knows (as does Robert) that the U.S. has plenty to apologize for, but until some OTHER country makes a stink about it, the U.S. will hope it slides into the pages of oblivion. Not just the U.S., but every country is like this.
It’s not like you’re not going to stop criticizing Korea for having a biased media until the U.S. gets rid of Fox News, or stop criticizing Korea for racial discrimination because the (citizens of the) U.S. did/still do(es) it, are you?
should read: It’s not like you’re going to…
permalink does a very good job of reducing Colontos’s rants to their most valid points. I agree with #26.
‘but until some OTHER country makes a stink about it, the U.S. will hope it slides into the pages of oblivion. Not just the U.S., but every country is like this.’
i was going to say the same thing in a post i was going to write tonight. too bad for japan that the countires it brutalized either have a billion people OR have the money to go after them. what former western colony has the clout or resources to do the same? can’t think of many. therein lies japan’s problem.
What I’m curious about is what made the EU start to even care about the issue… perhaps Chinese influence?
I’m not sure where you pulled that quote from, but I surmise that the ten million figure represents Chinese, Korean, and Southeast Asian civilian dead. If so, then for a true comparison, you will need to add the millions of civilian non-concentration camp war dead, an estimated 7 million in Russia alone.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm
If the gang rape happened more than fifty years ago, I’d hope that I would have worked through the trauma, found peace, and moved on.
Does anybody here, besides Colontos, permalink, and User-81, think that Japan will actually apologize and offer compensation because the US and European governments passed resolutions demanding such? How long did aparteid South Africa hold out against economic sanctions and global ostracism? The resolutions are toothless and therefore insignificant.
I admire how elderly comfort women have used Japanese courts, albeit unsuccessfully, to try to achieve official recognition and compensation. That is the way to go. Fight the fight in Japan using legal means.
“Does anybody here, besides Colontos, permalink, and User-81, think that Japan will actually apologize and offer compensation because the US and European governments passed resolutions demanding such?”
I don’t recall saying I actually thought Japan would apologize for it. Please show me where I said that.
And, by your logic, we shouldn’t bring the topic up because they probably won’t apologize for it anyway? That would sure be a great way to stop criticism - just refuse to apologize, and they’ll all give up and carry on with their merry lives.
As Robert as made very clear, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. We have no moral authority to condemn Japan.
Permalink, you did say this:
Explain. How does Japan “need” other countries to criticize them and demand apologies for the treatment of the comfort women?
“As Robert as made very clear, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. We have no moral authority to condemn Japan.”
Remember what I said about sententiousness?
Show me WHY “people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” without resorting to a folksy metaphor, if you can, please.
And what permalink means, if you can stop willfully misunderstanding him for a moment, is that if countries are pressured to apologize, then maybe eventually they will. It’s worth a shot, no? Have Japan issue resolutions demanding that Euros apologize, I’ll back ‘em.
Sonagi, you have an American flag, and so do I, so let’s take an American perspective. 62 years ago, the Japanese were carrying on institutionalized rape. Now they deny that it happened. WHY don’t we have the “moral authority,” whatever that means, to condemn them? I would think that simply being human would give one the “moral authority” to condemn mass rape.
Because the other folks might throw stones back, and then all we’ll have to show for our troubles is a pile of broken glass.
Permalink can speak for himself. I did not “willfully” misunderstand him. In fact, I quoted him directly in my last comment and invited him to clarify. As for your own interpretation of permalink’s words, can you cite any examples of nations apologizing under international pressure?
I ordered mine WITHOUT folksy metaphor; I’m not paying for this.
The US House of Representatives passed a resolution calling on Japan to apologize and compensate the comfort women. Japan did neither. In fact, prior to the resolution’s passage, members of the Diet took out that infamous ad in the NYT. After the resolution passed, the Japanese government called the resolution “regrettable.”
I hope you’re busy googling successful examples of countries that yielded to international pressure and apologized/compensated for past historical wrongs.
And in a bizarre twist the Canadian government demanded everyone apologize to Canada for failing to notice that Canada has called on Japan to apologize too.
Said an earnest gov’t official in Ottowa: “When we demonstrate leadership by jumping on the bandwagon everyone ought to take notice. British teacher Gillian Gibbons owes Canada a big apology especially. Her cultural and religious insensitivity during the same period of Canada’s demand-Japan’s-apology debate completely knocked Canada’s important apology demand off the front page. We may also demand an apology from the web browser Firefox because its spell-check plug-in says Ottowa is misspelled when in fact it isn’t.”
OK, I have a novel idea. How about everybody take a step back and stop apologizing. That’s right, we should have a 50-year moratorium on apologies at the nation-state level. That is especially so since I am not expecting an apology for the War of Northern Aggression anytime soon.
BTW, if we insist on apologies, I also expect the Turks to apologize to somebody (the Greeks, I guess) for Constantinople.
“I hope you’re busy googling successful examples of countries that yielded to international pressure and apologized/compensated for past historical wrongs.”
No, Sonagi, I’m “busy” doing a little something I like to call “work.” This is my distraction/relaxation. But you keep up that googlin’, I think you’re doing enough for the both of us.
Ah, Sonagi, your pedantry knows no bounds, nor does it, evidently, understand any points. Take a close look at my previous post (maybe squinting your eyes a bit will help). I said maybe, with enough pressure, someone will apologize. I quote myself: “It’s worth a shot.” I didn’t say that it happens every day.
And here’s some food for thought: a few of you have been quick to mention that a few Japanese officials have, in fact, apologized for various abuses. Now, do you *really* think that they just felt their conscience telling them to do it? Or do you think they felt pressure to do so? And if they did feel pressure, you can bet your bottom dollar that it wasn’t domestic. So, hm, maybe it has worked, or at least helped, once or twice.
“Because the other folks might throw stones back, and then all we’ll have to show for our troubles is a pile of broken glass.”
If pointing out others’ disregarded atrocities, or having our own disregarded atrocities pointed out, would reduce us to a pile of broken glass, our societies are in very bad shape.
“Does anybody here, besides Colontos, permalink, and User-81, think that Japan will actually apologize and offer compensation because the US and European governments passed resolutions demanding such?”
I do NOT think this will make them apologize or offer compensation any more than they have, but it might make any future statements of denial stand out even more.
It’s possible that they might, but what would be the point? An apology is only meaningful if it comes out of a sincere acknowledgment of wrong-doing and desire for atonement. An apology offered under duress from powerful third parties is not a true apology, and both the victims (who, although happy with seeing Japan humiliated by the West, would continue to hold the sincerity of Japanese apologies in doubt, and rightfully so) and the perpetrators would know it. In fact, the only people I can see ultimately benefiting from this exercise is the Japanese right, who could rally around defending Japan against unfair pressure from unapologetic, hypocritical Western ex-imperialists.
Well, personally, I don’t think there’s much point in offering apologies for historical wrongs (plus, it would be a never-ending business), but let’s assume for the moment there is. As I stated above, I’m not sure how good an apology is without actual acknowledgment of wrongdoing. Apologies under pressure or because a victim is making an embarrassing international stink about it would come off as insincere, no? I mean, what makes the German case so special (and so convincing) is that the Germans have taken it upon themselves to reflect on their past and uncover past wrongs (at least as far as the Holocaust is concerned), not because of demands from Israel, Poland or other wronged parties.
The other thing, too, is that while it’s certainly true that even a hypocrite can be right, a hypocrite’s advice also rings hollow. North Korea makes complaints about South Korean human rights all the time. Some of the complaints — about the National Security Law, for instance — are actually valid. But when we hear such criticism from North Korea, how many of us say, “Gee, North Korea has a point there?” No, we either laugh it off or tell Pyongyang to STFU. Is there any reason to believe the Japanese, forced to listen to lectures about their history from Western powers completely unapologetic about their own imperial history, will react any differently, except perhaps — PERHAPS — to offer an insincere apology as a means to escape pressure from important allies and trading partners?
I believe you answered your own question in comment #19, because “as has been argued by many on this blog, this would require everyone to apologize and compensate for everything that has ever happened.” And as far as I know, it’s not Japan demanding the British apologize for herding the Kikuyu into concentration camps during the Mau Mau Rebellion or the French to apologize for the systematic use of torture in Algeria.
Why is a 3rd party (Europe and US) even involved in this matter?
White Privilege?
#30,
Sure, but it’s not that simple. You must remember that the Chinese and North Korean governments position their ‘defeat’ of Japanese Imperialism as a central argument for their existence, and in doing so use it to shape nationalist sentiments. Honestly, is it really a surprise that they discredit any Japanese apology as being insincere?
The fact is that Japanese ultra nationalists are old men who have one foot in the grave and gangsters (some of which are, strangely enough, Korean). They are not representative of the Japanese population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
These people give Japan a bad image. Admittedly, Japanese society isn’t ready yet to openly deal with its colonial past; nevertheless, there are many Japanese who are ready and have taken concrete steps towards reconciliation. In time, there will be more.
No, Marmot. Read what I wrote, Marm. Read what it was in response to. I said that it would be a neverending process based on your suggestions that “victims” be apologized to for wrongs that happened to their “mothers and fathers.”. I have consistently made a distinction between victims who are still alive and those who died decades or centuries ago. Those are relatively limited and apologies could be worthwhile.
Oh, and Marm, you can stop trying to *D*A*Z*Z*L*E* me with your MASSIVE KNOWLEDGE of atrocities. Go ahead and close down the tab where you have Wikipedia open and just talk about the issue at hand.
PS. The North Korean government also uses the threat of a nuclear attack by the US and South Korea and the supposed enslavement of South Koreans by Americans to justify its existence, thus appearing to play the role of a protector.
I’m with Robert/Marmot here. I’d suggest a universal 30-year Statute of Limitations on all such “demands” for apologies/compensations. Voluntary such acts could still be done and would be welcome as honorable, of course. Historical scholarship on atrocities should continue, museums established, acknowledgements of truth may be made and memorial monuments established — without demands for apologies/compensations, there would probably be a huge lot more of those.
At some risk, I wade in (hey, it’s a weekend):
colontos, you’re sparring with some smart people who know things about things, so don’t blame them for thinking. If you narrow your scope so much, your case becomes trivial. “But I only want to talk about the specific case where a county instiutionalized an atrocity AND the victims are still alive AND there has not been a sincere enough apology AND the victims have not been adequately compensated.”
But if the EU or the US gov’t is going to make a statement, it wants to make a grand statement, stand up for high ideals, etc etc. Establish a precedent, a standard for future cases. “But I wasn’t talking about all that sendentitious stuff. I was talking about the SPECIFIC CASE where blah blah blah….”
All that kind of makes the gesture a lot less grand. Grand statements that uphold uphold universal values need broad applicability, not distracting details. And broad statements become precedents, and precedents have wide-ranging repercussions, and that’s what the thinking people you’re sparring with are trying to think about. You can fence in your own argument, but the smaller its circumference, the more trivial it becomes.
Finally, someone with a sense of humor!
But, hey, maybe it’s just me, but I feel pretty safe focusing on the rape of hundreds of thousands without seeming too “trivial.” And plus, if you pay attention, I’ve never said that the euros shouldn’t apologize.
I think the problem with this discussion is “Apple is sweet!” vs. “No, Orange is too sour” situation. It looks like the two sides are talking about the same issue, but they really aren’t.
Correct me if I’m wrong
Robert: EU or US has no moral high ground to condemn Japanese of any imperial activities.
colontos: Japanese atrocities were horrible, and there hadn’t been a meaningful apology from the current government.
I think the misunderstanding was that colontos thought Robert was marginalizing the Japanese atrocities…
Oh, and did someone pull that “Oh, there were Korean collaborators too!” card up there? Because whoever did that essentially justified every single imperialistic activities and atrocities (war-time and peace-time) in the world (in that every single on of them have collaborators). ‘Holocaust? Who gives a sh!t? Elie Wiesel needs to quit whining because of the Jewish Order Service.’
I think you have summarized our statements accurately, except that I explicitly disagree with the Marmot for the following reasons:
1. Bad things are worthy of condemnation, even if the condemner has done bad things too.
2. WTF does “moral high ground” even mean, anyway?
Japan has apologize, and has paid compensation, so why do people still believe Korean lies on this issue?
The “comfort women” system was a system designed to provide prostitutes to Japanese soldiers. Korea had a similar system for providing prostitutes to UN soldiers. It is not “institutional rape” if women volunteer to to sell sex, but it is rape if they are forced to do so. In the case of both the Korean and Japanese systems, there were probably cases of individuals abusing the system, such as Japanese and Korean agents kidnapping or deceiving women, but that was not institutionalized, and Korean newspaper articles at the time talking about Japanese police cracking down on such agents are evidence of that.
Koreans were Japanese allies in World War II, and were in favor of going to war with China in 1938. Most of the Korean resistence to Japanese rule at the beginning of Korea’s colonial period was gone by then. Koreans supported Japan in the war.
The US and allied forces feared the Japanese empire and wanted to break it up, which meant taking Manchuria, Taiwan, and Korea away from Japan. To expedite this breakup, the US and allied forces essentially gave Taiwanese and Koreans a pardon for supporting Japan by giving them an opportunity to claim victim status. This was a divide and conquer strategy.
Since the end of World War II, Korea has used lies and exaggeration about the treatment they received under Japanese rule in an attempt to justify their victim status and distance themselves from Japan, but if Koreans were really victims, then why are lies and exaggeration necessary, and why did Korean life expectancy almost double? There is a Korean proverb that says, “An empty cart makes the loudest noise,” and I think that proverb is applicable to Korea and its noisy claims against the Japanese.
Korea was not China, yet when Koreans talk about Japanese atrocities, they tend to talk about atrocities committed against the Chinese in China. Why?
Can someone point me to a list of atrocities committed against Koreans in Korea during the Japanese colonial period? And please make it a list of something that is specific and verifiable.
*yawn*
#54,
“Korea had a similar system for providing prostitutes to UN soldiers. It is not “institutional rape” if women volunteer to to sell sex, but it is rape if they are forced to do so. ”
So, you’re saying it’s impossible to rape a prostitute?
On top of that, they were not all hired as prostitutes, nor was the Korean system as extreme as the Japanese one.
http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~modernh/eng03.htm
http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~modernh/13eng.htm
“In the case of both the Korean and Japanese systems, there were probably cases of individuals abusing the system, such as Japanese and Korean agents kidnapping or deceiving women, but that was not institutionalized, and Korean newspaper articles at the time talking about Japanese police cracking down on such agents are evidence of that.”
Actually, there it’s well documented that Japanese soldiers arrested women, submitted them to medical tests, and then sent them to the brothels after the recruiting drive didn’t turn out the way they had expected.
Besides, whether some recruiters were kidnapping the women out of their own volition or not doesn’t not change the fact that they were doing the Japanese government’s work.
“Koreans were Japanese allies in World War II, and were in favor of going to war with China in 1938. Most of the Korean resistence to Japanese rule at the beginning of Korea’s colonial period was gone by then. Koreans supported Japan in the war.”
And yet when not enough Koreans volunteered, the Japanese government conscripted them.
Besides, I always question approval ratings that were tabulated by a dictatorship. Kim Jong Il has a domestic approval rating of 100%, or so would the North Korean media would want us to believe.
“why did Korean life expectancy almost double? ”
It’s probably Imperial Japan propaganda. Some suspect this statistic was based on the data collected from the Japanese residents of Korea. Besides, Japan did not develop Korea for the benefit of Koreans, did it? It wasn’t modernization, it was mercantilism.
‘Korea was not China, yet when Koreans talk about Japanese atrocities, they tend to talk about atrocities committed against the Chinese in China. Why?’
why? i’ll tell you way, gerry. first, they’re fellow human beings. second, they’re fellow asians and i hold asian life to be as important as the lives of any other lives in this wolrd. third, as a person, i’m offended by what the japanese did to the chinese people.
can i ask you something, gerry? what kind of messed up world do live in? you mean people should only feel sorrow for their own? then, how’s is it you feel sorry for the japanese? are you under the impression that you have a right to feel for others while i don’t? sorry, gerry; we don’t live in your world.
what the japanese did to the chinese is unforgivable and the japanese should be ashmed of their people’s behavior. and yet, what we get instead, is silence from the japanese masses while their leaders deny japanese horrors.
not to go too long about this, but i want to tell you something. something in the back of mind has been slowly eating at me. this something comes up from time to time. i never know when it will strike. you see, i can’t get japanese experiments out of my mind because of their brutality. i keep thinking about the poor soul who had his arms taken off without anesthesia and reattached to the opposite sides. that man was chinese, gerry. and i don’t give a fuck that he was.
you understand now?
even if there were no japanese attempt to erase koreans off the face of this earth, i’d still support the chinese.
현 재 명 백 마?
and that’s even with the koguryeo shit, gerry. how’s your new job going?
“why? i’ll tell you way, gerry. first, they’re fellow human beings. second, they’re fellow asians and i hold asian life to be as important as the lives of any other lives in this wolrd.”
I guess that’s true only when the aggressor is Japan. However, when the aggressor is N.Korea…
“Well, uh…er, um…we don’t have to answer that because it doesn’t matter that N. Korea has been responsible for almost 4 times the number of deaths of our people than Japan was! Let’s just forget this stupid question and move on to more important and fun things…like bashing Japan!”
#57,
Pawi, you must admit that the fact that the Korean national identity was shaped by the Japanese colonial rule (a fact that has been exploited by Korean politicians for over 50 years) has more than a bit to do with the emotional response it creates in some people.
Still no list?
Pawi,
Notice that you also avoided my question of what were the Japanese atrocities in Korea during Korea’s colonial period. Also, notice that you changed the subject to atrocities in China.
I do not know what is fact or fiction in regard to Japanese atrocities in China, but Koreans were part of the Japanese empire during that period, and, therefore, must share some of the responsibility rather than pretend that they were also victims.
If Korea’s colonial period was so bad, why do many Koreans have fond memories of it?
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Colontos wrote:
translation: I can’t find a single example to back up my assertion. Thanks, Colontos.
Reading Colontos’ comments on this thread, especially those directed at our blogger, suggest that our friend has become possessed by the spirit of YoungRocco2.
“If Korea’s colonial period was so bad, why do many Koreans have fond memories of it?”
I would guess the ones you are referring to were most certainly too young to remember the period prior to the Korean Declaration of Independence of 1919 (after the Declaration of Independence, Japan gave limited freedom to Koreans to try to appease the population), if they were born at all. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ones you are referring to were actually children in the 30’s and 40’s and therefore experienced Japanese colonial rule through the eyes of innocence.
I suggest you watch ‘La Vita è bella’, if you haven’t seen it yet. It expresses my point far more eloquently than I am capable of doing.
Bevers wrote
“Koreans were part of the Japanese empire during that period, and, therefore, must share some of the responsibility rather than pretend that they were also victims.”
Bevers what are you smoking man? How on earth are Koreans responsible for what Japan did in China? Like Latvia is responsible for Soviet attrocities in Afghanistan?
“…How on earth are Koreans responsible for what Japan did in China? Like Latvia is responsible for Soviet attrocities in Afghanistan?”
An interesting choice of analogies. “Latvia” might be responsible only if there was any significant participation in Soviet operations involving war crimes in Afghan by Latvian troop formations (I don’t know if there was any such Latvian participation, probably not since I gathered the Soviets tended to use troop formations from their nearby Central Asian republics, at least for the initial invasion of Afghan in the 79-80 period).
If individual Latvian Communist cadres, looking to advance their Soviet military and/or Communist party and/or KGB careers, participated in activities in the Soviet period in Afghan — ones that were illegal by generally accepted principles of international law —
and if the current Latvian government was covering for any such individuals currently, by deliberately hiding/overlooking them — then that would make “Latvia” collectively responsible for their misdeeds, at least in a moral sense.
I’m speaking hypothetically of course as I don’t know that there actually were any such Latvian individuals, probably not but who knows.
A more appropriate analogy might be from WWII, when pro-Nazi nationalists from the Baltic republics (also Poland/Ukraine/other European nations) participated in SS concentration camp activities or in illegal war crimes activities under German military auspices, usually in Poland/Ukraine/Baltic republics/USSR. I’m sure the Simon Wiesenthal Center must have documented many examples, many of whom were never brought to justice (assuming of course they survived the war).
There was one case of a man alleged to be a Ukrainian national, who was an SS prison camp guard, later admitted to the US after WWII and living as a US citizen for many years until he was uncovered in the 1980’s or 90’s; I think the guy may still be alive, in in his 80’s or 90’s. He was I think actively being prosecuted by the US Justice Department for deportation/loss of US citizenship, can’t remember now how it turned out, seems to me the story was in the news again just in the last couple of years.
Paul, are you alluding to this?
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/.....s-cleared/
#62
No, Son, I just thought it was amusing that you implied that I should be “busy” “googling” for this “debate.” And if you’ll pay a bit closer attention (I know its hard for you) and look at the rest of my post that you quoted, where I addressed the issue you were referring to. Obviously, no one would ever say, “In response to Western pressure, we have decided to apologize,” now would they?
#66 Sonagi “Paul, are you alluding to this?”
I was thinking of that type of thing but had forgotten about that specific post though I remember it now; thanks for reminding me as it’s an example of the exact type of thing I’m talking about.
In sublinks to the link you cite, the use of “Allied” (evidently British) post-WWII trial transcripts, to exonerate previously convicted WWII Korean prison camp guards, presents an interesting contrast to the more recent use of US Korean War military records by the Korean Truth and Reconciliation commission.
Cited here on this blog a month or more back. I’m referring of course to the Jan 51 US X Corps memo, evidently extracted from US national archives by researchers, which was presented by the T&R Commission as direct evidence of an unjustified airstrike by US Navy aircraft on ROK civilians — an act which in the opinion of the T&R commission called for the payment of reparations by the US government to the survivors.
I guess US military documents, written at the heighth of the Jan 51 Chinese/North Korean counteroffensive, are in retrospect obviously much more reliable historically than post-WWII Commonwealth forces war crimes trial transcripts.
Yes, that must be it. I hereby commit myself to keep striving to look at history from a nationalist Korean perspective.
I just noticed this steam of 68 comments, much of it intelligent and some of it purely emotional drivel. After some hesitation, allow me to add to either or both said categories.
One can argue if Japan, Germany or anyone has ever effectively apologized for its outrages. What we can probably agree is that the victims and/or their descents often do their best to leverage history, often for some very cynical aims, while ignoring their own roles in the same conflicts.
Not to say the Japanese or Koreans were exceptional during WWII. There were both some decent and some very nasty personalities within both groups. Already there has been mention of the Koreans who went around rounding up girls for the brothels. To this day, Korean jailers are described in horrifying detail by the Filipinos of what they endured during the Japanese occupation.
In other words, all of these calls for apologies come down to narcissistic oneupmanship — and its pretty sorry stuff when third parties wade into such messes such as the US, Canad and the EU, as in the most recent case of the comfort women.
So, as far as I’m concerned, a plague on all our houses. None of us are innocent. Shame on the politicians who whip up this sort of nationalist hatred.
Paul H -
No it doesn’t make Latvians, or Koreans “collectively responsible” for the misdeeds of a traitor and collaborator. Are you and I responsible for Bennedict Arnold - or the handful of Americans who entered El Qaida? Those Koreans (or Viche French for that matter) who looked to advance their careers by working for the enemy are the ones who should be punished. It doesn’t make any sense to hold the nation collectively responsible for the crimes of an individual traitor.
#70,
Yes, but governments must be held responsible for their past policies. That’s why Canada compensated Japanese-Canadians who had been put in internment camps during WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.....internment
#45 slouching tiger
It should be remembered too that Australian and Dutch women (I’m not sure about British women) were also used as forced Comfort Women so that at least provides a connection.
‘To this day, Korean jailers are described in horrifying detail by the Filipinos of what they endured during the Japanese occupation.’
a fine example of moral bankruptcy. making the victim into the perpatraitor.
did you know jews helped to run the concetration camps?
#73,
Yes, exactly, but it doesn’t excuse the crimes. Think about it. What would would you have done in that situation? Run away or bayoneted babies? I would like to think that I would have run away, probably after having killed the person who gave me the unethical order.
Christ pawi, learn to look at the world in shades. Not everything is black and white. The reason no-one takes you seriously on this board is because you never concede a single point. In your fantasy world, Koreans have never done anything wrong, but the fact is that some victims are perpetrators too. The Japanese should not have invaded Korea. But nor should many Koreans have volunteered for foreign posts in the Japanese army and comitted attrocities, which they are on the record as having done. Talk to Australian vets who survived Burma and they will tell you in no uncertain terms that the Koreans were monsters. Is it Japan’s fault that they were there in the first place? Yes. Is it Japans fault that they took it upon themselves to torture and beat and murder POWS? No.
Again, the root of the problem is Japanese colonial rule. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Korea deserved the right to choose its own path, no matter how poorly managed the country was at the time. But there were plenty of Koreans who collaborated and profited from their countrymen’s misery and the misery of other nationalities.
the problem is, you want to make isolated korean atrocities as somehow being eqaul to japan’s behavior prior to and during the war. though these issues need to be investigated, the primary focus should being on japan’s denial of it’s past. moreover, the two issues are not equal and we need to keep that in mind.
nobody takes me serious here? then what the hell you writing to me for?
How about everyone just move on? Do the french still hate on the germans for WW2? No. Do Australians still hate the Japanese for seeking to anex Australia in WW2? No. Do Koreans still hate the Japanese for the colonial period? Yes.
I saw a doco about an Australian veteran who saw his mates executed by the Japanese in Burma. They asked him if he had forgiven the Japanese for what they did. He thought about it for a while and then said, “It’s taken me 50 years, but yes, I have.”
I took a bunch of Korean students to Australia for an english camp. The school was hosting a Japanese group as well. My Korean students, who had never met any Japanese before in their lives, refused to eat with them.
compare the two
Call me a cynic, but I just don’t think the average Korean gives a shit about the comfort women as anything more than a vehicle for hating on Japan on the international stage.
If Koreans actualy cared about these women, why is there such deafening silence re the trafficking of North Korean women to China today?
No one gives a shit, and these are your blood sisters.
Do Russians still hate Germans for WW2?
Do Russians still hate Japanese for Russo-Japanese war?
Would the answers to the both be No too?
I’m not sure about the first question, but I think there are some Russians who still hate the Japanese for the war. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
“How about everyone just move on? Do the french still hate on the germans for WW2? No. Do Australians still hate the Japanese for seeking to anex Australia in WW2? No. Do Koreans still hate the Japanese for the colonial period? Yes.”
The Australians and the (Free) French both eventually won, that’s why.