You know, I have to say, I’m actually impressed Korea could beat out Japan as China’s least favorite neighbor. That takes some real work.
Korea China’s Least Favorite Neighbor
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on December 12, 2007 at 12:24 pm, filed under Asides, China, South Korea. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL.
91 Comments
I wonder what North Korea was ranked.
China’s favorite is Pakistan? Well they do look nice together, don’t they?
How is that even possible? Japan murders and humiliates the Chinese during WW2. What has Korea done to China?
Then again China is a very big place so im pretty sure regions differ. If this was an internet poll however then that might explain the poll results. Regardless, I question the legitimacy of this poll. In other polls conducted by the Chinese, Korea usually tops out as the most favorable country with the lowest “dislike” percentage.
It really doesnt make sense for the Japaneses to score higher. Especially if you know a couple of Chinese people in real life and their opinions of the Japanese.
I asked the same thing myself.
Maybe thousands of Koreans saw an online poll in Chinese that had “Korea” as the answer to a question and picked it just so that “they” would win, regardless of what they would then be winning.
VG866,
First, Korea was on Japan’s side in World War II. Second, many of the Chinese in the survey were probably comparing present-day Korea and Japan rather than comparing the Korea and Japan from more than sixty years ago. Nevertheless, Koreans should be asking themselves why Chinese like them less than Japanese, in spite of the history.
I talked with a Chinese exchange student here in Korea recently, and she told me that she was disappointed in Korea, not only with her school but also with Korean society. She said that the Korean students in her classes did not study very hard and that Korea was dirty. I was surprised to hear her say that Korea was dirty because that is what Koreans usually say about China. She explained that she expected Korea to be more modern and cleaner than China, but she was suprised to find that they were very similar. She also said she did not like the way the Korean media were always trying to put down China by showing only the poor side of the country. That reminded me of similar Korean complaints against US media and TV shows such as “M.A.S.H.”
“How is that even possible?
I asked the same thing myself.”
Well, anti-Japanism in China is something that is politically created (maybe also true for Korea. Public opinion polls from both South-Korean and Japanese newspapers showed that actually the generation who directly experienced the colonial era was the least Japan-hater during the 80ies).
There were not anti-Japanese at all during the 80ies until the early 90ies. Japan ranked as the second favorite nation after the USA ! among Chinese during the 80ies. During the 80ies, every year after the J-government announced their planned Defense budget for the following year, BOTH the US government and the Chinese government criticized that Japan should consider the threat of the USSR more seriously, and that they should increase the defense budget! Unbelievable, n’est-pas? The Chinese called us free riders of National security (well the enemy of an enemy is a friend….).
When the Comfort Women became up for the first time in the early 90ies, I recall literally ALL Chinese students at my Uni and Chinese co-worker at my part time job laughing about the Korean. “Korean, they are so pathetic. They still whine and bitch about something what happened before they were born”.
I remember a Chinese student (a friend of mine) describing the Korean as immature.
Several years after, Jiang Zemin came to power, introducing the “patriotic education” to whole China and all changed suddenly.
Gerry, while I frequently agree with many of your points, you’ve gone too far on this one. Korea was on Japan’s side in much the same way that Czechoslovakia was on Germany’s.
I’m sorry, but for a Chinese to call Korea dirty is like an American criticizing Korea for violent crime.
Based on my experiences over the last 12 years here in South Korea and comparing them to experiences I have had in Japan(although not nearly as many) this poll comes as no suprise. Korean society and the way it treats non-Koreans is a constant. It matters little what was done 50 or 100 years ago, it matters what is done in the present and how you treat others. Koreans get a failing grade in this category hands down. They have a long way to go and they don’t even know they need to get moving. But they are probably too busy blaming everyone else for all their problems to even consider change.
I don’t think that it has to do how Non-Koreans are treated in the Korean society or how the actual Korean society was disappointing compared to the K-society in K-dramas or films; it’s more a problem of politics (North east region and Koguryo).
After the huge anti-Japan riots in 2005, appearantly the Chinese government has undertaken a project to weaken the anti-Japanese feelings in the mass (there are many news on the Chinese net to “praise” Japanese economic supports like “oh,what, this bridge was also constructed with Japanese economical aid? I didn’t know that. Let’s thank the Japanese”).
In September, market researcher Millward Brown surveyed 1,000 Korean adults on their favorite neighboring country. The majority — 60.8 percent — said the U.S. China ranked second with 44.0 percent followed by Russia with 41.4 percent and Japan with 35.6 percent.
Somebody needs to buy Millward Brown and at least 1,000 Korean adults a world map.
gbevers Korea wasn’t on Japan’s side in world war 2. It wasn’t even considered a country during Japanese colonization. And I’m 100% sure that the Koreans did not view the Japanese in favorable light during the colonization period much less as allies. But coming from someone like you I’m not really surprised that you said that. Anyways I would remark about your make believe story about interacting with Chinese exchange students but I see no point. You have no credibility and it’s obvious that you have a history of making subtle anti Korean statements while attempting to act sophisticated. It’s no wonder why you got fired from your job (yes I remember). So I’ll just ignore you and look elsewhere for better answers, especially from someone who doesn’t support Japanese war crimes. Btw I’m not Korean if you’re just wondering.
Honestly though this poll is probably the only one out of a dozen or so that puts Japan in a more favorable light then Korea. In most polls Korea usually comes out as most favorable. So I’m rather surprised at the results and I question the legitimacy of the poll.
#9
Can I get you on record as saying “Chinese are dirty” please? Or am I confusing something here?
and a calculator.
@14 if you can’t get rjkoehler.com on the record for saying that, you could probably get about 49,000,000 of his neighbors to explain it to you.
Well, you can get me on record as saying “China” is dirty. Or at least is is compared to Korea.
Thanks for ignoring me, VG866. And because of your “100%” remark, I now know that I can ignore you, without regret.
I do not care if you or anyone else believe my story about the Chinese exchange student, who also said, by the way, that one thing she liked about the Korean town she is living in is that it is not as crowded as China.
And for the record, I am from Texas, where we are generally proud of the fact that we are not sophisticated.
To be fair, Koreans treat each other despicably as well. The problem is not so much “how Koreans treat non-Koreans”, it’s “how Koreans treat other people” to whom they have no connection. Foreigners are just obviously others with whom they have no connection.
Looks like the Korean media and government kissing Chinese derriere did a whole lotta good.
There are more Koreans than Japanese here in China–so greater contact may mean greater ill will. But I generally just question the survey’s methodology.
Seeing that China provides Pakistan with most of its arms, its gonna keep Pakistan in a positive light. (Although keep its own citizens ignorant about those arms deals. After all, China doesn’t meddle.)
I think this statement is correct. My impression of the general feeling of foreigners who come into contact with Koreans but who have no relationship (family, school, company) with those Koreans is loathing. Those of us who can speak Korean and have a good relationship as an “umbrella” (to keep the piss off our haircuts) do all right, but most non-Korean speaking tourists, businesspeople, and employees of Koreans are embittered by the experience. Sure, there are tons of “Wow, Korea is great!” Pollyannas out there, but among most of those who have direct experience, Koreans don’t have a great reputation.
One would hope for self-reflection about why this is the case, but hey — Here is Korea™. Don’t hold your breath.
“The problem is not so much “how Koreans treat non-Koreans”, it’s “how Koreans treat other people” to whom they have no connection. Foreigners are just obviously others with whom they have no connection.”
The Chinese-language media often carry stories of ugly Korean tourists and Korean managers/owners who are abusive to their Chinese underlings. This could be a partial explanation.
I can’t wait for pawikirogi to find this thread and prove my thesis right.
The number of Koreans that a Chinese person would come into contact, though, is not enough to change national perceptions, IMO.
user-81> “The Chinese-language media often carry stories of ugly Korean tourists and Korean managers/owners who are abusive to their Chinese underlings. This could be a partial explanation.”
Not comparatively more than the Japanese, though.
My city has a chain of restaurants with signs infront that say ‘No Japanese allowed.’ (although recently changed to: no war-minded japanese allowed.)
As Brendon has explicated in a nicely nuanced manner “familiarity breeds contempt.”
Contra Brendon, though, I think there is a fair amount of reflection on it, if not self-reflection. Or maybe awareness is a better word, because there certainly is no genuine will to change as a result. Instead the focus is always on how to bamboozle. The problem is that Uri nara has tried to dazzle, and subsequently welshed (a slur on aonother fine people) on its commitments, so many times that there just isn’t any sparkle left (meretricious national-brand ad campaigns and Christmas decorations notwithstanding); and, because it’s happened to so many people, the critical mass of disbelievers now probably exceeds the pollyannas, at least in just about every field that really matters.
The poll underscores a problem with information and how it can be manipulated to suit the needs of a government or a media-savvy organization. Japan can be cool or it can be the evil Japan(tm), complete with victims. Dokdo has been very useful for the Korean Government and they will not admit to this either publicly though it is quite apparent. I thought the North Korean postage stamps that commemorated Dokdo to be overboard thought.
Americans can be great or they can be the yankee aggressors(tm). Now, Korea is probably going to find itself a target of whatever the Chinese Communist Party wants or needs to create. They have already started on Korean history and just look at what they are doing with Tibet. When a report is released that finds that the people of Tibet are suffering because of China, the Chinese Ministry of Creative Fiction goes to work, claiming that the Dali Lama is trying to drive Tibet back to the dark ages.
This alleged poll means nothing but it should illustrate how quickly things can change when media is used and manipulated to create a new monster — just like the evil English teacher that is in fashion in Korea nowadays.
Yes, I agree with this. Koreans are so overwhelmingly conscious of specific, prescribed human connections that if you don’t have any connections with them then you might as well be an animal. It’s sad, but true. I get that impression regularly.
Brendon is right. It is a decades-old observation, but it is still true to today. Koreans are extremely group-oriented, and if you are not part of the group, you are often treated as a nobody. In decending order, the group-think starts with family and then friends, school & church, city, province, and finally country.
In Korea, you have to stick up for your group, even if you know your group is wrong; otherwise, you are branded a traitor. That means that you are even expected to lie for the group. That is why Koreans can treat each other like crap, but still unite as one, either willingly or unwillingly, on issues like “Dokdo.” That is also why a foreigner can have great Korean friends, even though they are spit on by other Koreans. A friend, even a foreign friend, outranks a Korean who is not a friend.
I have noticed over the past few years that the group-think mentality is starting to break down. Many foreigners may not notice it, but maybe that is because they were not here twenty-five years ago. Koreans’ attitude toward foreigners, and to Koreans outside their group, is changing for the better, even though there is still a long way to go.
When the Chinese say something, I don’t often get the impression that they know what they talk about. The Chinese politicians say they are communists, but China is probably more capitalistic than many traditional capitalist countries. With the gini index something like 47, it’s hardly a communist country. They tell the Americans not to interfere with their internal matters such as human rights, but they tell the other countries not to give visas to the Dalai Lama. If they do, they tell them not to meet or talk to him.
gbevers, your avg Chinese person rarely travels far, if they do it’s usually to the West for education/employment, or for tourism, mostly to Europe. I doubt that they’d care about Koreans thinking China is dirty, since it’s generally accepted that pretty much all developed nations have a belief that much of China is polluted.
Brendon hit the nail on the head with his comment. Koreans, among East Asia, also tend to express their dislike when it occurs; whereas Japanese tourists usually are quite polite about it.
Still, it’s regional I guess, depends how much a place has been affected by anti-Japanese rhetoric, as it’s obvious that there are a lot of Chinese who loathe Japanese (recent example being the women’s football finals).
I guess people here are not too familiar with what’s been happening between China and Korea on the internet world.
There has been some serious battles over the last couple of years between netizens of both countries. Koreans accus Chinese of stealing Korean history (Koguryo) and questioning of Chinese government’s intentions over North Korea after Kim Jong Il. On the other hand, the Chinese are accusing the Koreans of stealing Chinese history and culture too. They say Koguryo is Chinese.
Also, Japanese making shows like this and putting them on the internet doesn’t help either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkPOoF7u-oc
Chinese also accuse Koreans stole the Chinese writing system and insisting that it’s Korean. Koreans are accused of insisting that some Chinese holidays, Chinese Il-Ching symbol as Korean origins too. There are accusations of Koreans of intending to invade China (like Japan did) because Korea is accused of claiming all of China as Korean history. (I don’t know which Korean nutizens do this, but they should stop - it’s taken very seriously in China). There were also incidents like that Korean navy’s logo showing Korean flag over China (this was rectified), and China was offended with a Korean navy ship had bigger flag than Chinese flag when it showed up in Hong Kong.
And about Gbever’s story about the Chinese student, I believe him. That’s one of the biggest complaints about the Korea in China. Chinese feel that they were fooled by the Koreans using K-Drama to show Korea as modern and wealthy when in fact it’s poorer than China. So they feel betrayed that Korea was doing this underhandedly. (backlash against Hallyu?)
There’s also that incident this year when a pet shop owner in S.Korea put up a sign with a picture of dog, replacing the picture of Mao - remember that one?
Chinese students in Korea reported to the Chinese embassy and press, and the Chinese press got involved. The Korean government got pressured and told the pet shop owner to take it down. But that one caused at least a month of internet riot.
China has always considered Korea as a tributary nation under its wing. It’s one of the reasons why China started its modernization drive, abandoning communism. Then one day the Chinese government woke up found that they were even behind the ewww… Koreans… those same people who we used to treat with contempt.
I’m presuming some expats here are gloating that Koreans are getting hated on. But I have to remind you, as China grows economically to challenge the United States, Chinese nationalism and cockiness is growing daily. China can easily blackmail the United States because they hold a trillion dollars of American debt. This debt is growing by the day. It’s their goal to see the US down on its knees. Asia, and maybe the world isn’t going to be pleasant to live, under Chinese hegemony.
I spent 4 years in Korea before relocating to Qingdao to teach in a Korean school within the largest Korean population outside of Korea (excluding LA). So, I to share many of the same complaints the rest of the world does about Koreans. No need to reiterate. And now that I am here among the Chinese, where more than 100 thousand Koreans are their not so humble guests, I can shed some light on this poll. It is dead wrong.
I take a taxi to school everyday. I tell the driver where to go. He nods his head and all too often he will ask me about the job etc. So I always ask “Hanguo ren…hao bu hao?” (Korean people…good no good?) It’s never “Korean people are great!” but rarely is it that negative, even after I tell them I like China/Chinese people better and that Koreans are snobby. And indeed they are when they are bigger fish in a smaller sea. And the high school kids… spoiled brats who grow their mullets out like Jon Bon Jovi on a bad hair day. I’ve seen groups of kids so some pretty shitty things to Chinese people whom they feel are not a part of their Korean circle of respect for elders. The Chinese teachers who teach alongside me often have some big problems that make mine seem extremely minor.
And Korean moms… don’t even ask. In Korea, at least they are, to an extent, too busy managing the home and getting the kids from one hagwon to the next to over severely over analyze what is going on in class. Not here. They can pay the Chinese peanuts to do everything for them — a driver, a maid/nanny, etc. etc. — all kinds of extra time to ask what page we are on.
Koreans have driven real-estate prices up 300% by some accounts over the last 6 years in Qingdao. So, it’s a give and take relationship — the Koreans are good for business, and while they look upon the Chinese as the Japanese look upon Koreans, a friend told me that no matter what, Koreans don’t treat the Chinese as badly as the Chinese treat other Chinese. The Chinese teachers at my school are the longest running employees. They would much rather work in a Korean school than a Chinese.
Not only all of this, but Chinese culture and Korean cultures are a lot more closely linked than the Japanese and Chinese. Their are tons of Chinese Korean minorities (”jo-shen-jo” (spelling is wrong I know) who make a living as buffers between both cultures. Last time I checked there were no Chinese Japanese minority groups.
The movie “Nanking” just came out and pirated copies are abundant here. That might refresh some bad memories… but it seems to me most Chinese have a healthy dislike for Japan already.
On top of all this — finding Korean movies dubbed in Chinese is not hard at all. Korean pop culture is big in China. Many Chinese women follow Korean trends and listen to Korean music and try to look Korean. Chinese women shop for Korean husbands on the internet…
Hey…. maybe that’s why the pole seems wonky.
“…many of the Chinese in the survey were probably comparing present-day Korea and Japan rather than comparing the Korea and Japan from more than sixty years ago.”
Bingo! We have a winner!
“Nevertheless, Koreans should be asking themselves why Chinese like them less than Japanese, in spite of the history.”
Don’t hold your breath…
“…many of the Chinese in the survey were probably comparing present-day Korea and Japan rather than comparing the Korea and Japan from more than sixty years ago.”
Bingo! We have a winner!
“Nevertheless, Koreans should be asking themselves why Chinese like them less than Japanese, in spite of the history.”
Don’t hold your breath…
“…many of the Chinese in the survey were probably comparing present-day Korea and Japan rather than comparing the Korea and Japan from more than sixty years ago.”
Bingo! We have a winner!
“Nevertheless, Koreans should be asking themselves why Chinese like them less than Japanese, in spite of the history.”
Don’t hold your breath…
Great on-site reporting, Maximus. Come back and write more.
Chinese netizens vs Korean netizens. Now, there’s one battle I’d like to see go on to the death, with no winner.
I love it, I just do.
Don’t think of reasons why China could dislike Korea, but think of reasons why China should dislike Japan more! Now that’s fixing the problem wouldn’t you say. Talk about a raging inferiority complex.
But we all know this is all Japan’s fault anyways.
http://www.dcinside.com/webdc/.....mp;s_title
The writers for The Daily Show may be on strike, but we’ve the Korean media to keep us entertained.
I think the world will be very interesting when the Chinese per capita GDP hits 10 grands in maybe 10 to 20 years. Economically powerful China will be as challenging as nuclear Iran for the world to deal with, considering that some people seem to believe that the US President watches his words in talking to his Chinese counterpart already.
“But we all know this is all Japan’s fault anyways.”
To be fair though, that survey was done by joint cooperation between Xinhua News Agency, and Sankei Shimbun - a right wing Japanese news paper. You have one Chinese government controlled media cooperating with a Japanese right wing newspaper. It’s only going to be natural that someone’s going to question the validity of the survey (which I think is actually accurate). But don’t get too offended by that comment, I’ve seen far worse in Japanese 2ch forums.
“Nevertheless, Koreans should be asking themselves why Chinese like them less than Japanese, in spite of the history.”
Despite what the Korean government and the media says, ordinary Koreans do not like Chinese either. Do you think Chinese should be asking themselves why Koreans don’t like them? Come to think of it, should Chinese be asking themselves why China’s disliked by all its neighbors?
This is Asia, history is weighing down this region - and everybody don’t like each other. Chinese accuse Koreans of teaching in their text books, that China was conquered by Koreans and that Koreans stole Chinese culture. Koreans accuse China of stealing Korean history and thinking about putting its fingers in North Korea. Back and forth we go.
“To be fair though, that survey was done by joint cooperation between Xinhua News Agency, and Sankei Shimbun - a right wing Japanese news paper.”
Sankei Shimbun?
That explains everything. Sankei Shimbun is one of the most ring wing nationalist major Japanese newspaper in circulation within Japan. It makes Fox news look liberal. Theyre the ones who heavily who support things like comfort women denial, Yasukuni, Nanking numbers and other nationalist agendas.
Speaking of which im inclined to agree. Considering how untrustworthy and controlled the Chinese media is, I wouldnt be surprised if Chinas Xinhua News Agency was payed/convinced(in some form) by Sankei to publish and manipulate these results.
You have several other polls conducted this year which shows Korea recieving much more favorable opinions then Japan in all polls excluding the Sankei poll.
Why am I not surprised.
VG866, despite the source, I still believe the survey is indicative of Chinese growing negative feelings toward Koreans. I say growing because the survey was an internet based poll. So I have to guess it’s heavily youth centered. As someone mentioned, the Korean pop culture influence on China is also a source of growing resentment. Someone also mentioned familarity breeds contempt. That’s also true.
First, we can’t much take an online poll seriously, especially since netizens are more backlash-prone than common people. But I’ve lived in China for almost four years and my general sense of the matter is: hatred for the Japanese and disdain for the Koreans is a common feeling among “educated” Chinese.
I’ll start with the Koreans. Koreans are, ironically enough, bashed by ultra-nationalistic Chinese for being too patriotic. Students tell me that all Korean beauty is “fake” and, in line with what others have said in comments here, many college graduates working in Tianjin have a “horror story” of working in a Korean company. (Frankly, I think it’s a matter of feeling that poor working conditions are somehow worse if one’s boss is a foreigner.)
Chinese men fetishize Korean women, and I’d say that Korean women are sex symbols for Chinese men today the way blond Baywatch babes were sex symbols for Chinese men in the 1990s. That said, most Chinese women have no love for Korean men. Even Japanese men are more attractive to them thanks to a perception that Korean men act like god in their home and control all aspects of their wife’s life.
On top the Korean-Chinese history issues mentioned elsewhere in this comment thread, we should also consider the general sense (among Chinese) that Koreans look down on Chinese, and the fact that Chinese tend to look down on the south’s brothers to the north as “Gaoli bangzi,” which is translated as “Korean hillbillies” but can also mean “Korean thugs.”
On the other hand, with regard to Japan, I have never heard this disdain for Koreans ever manifest itself in the dramatic way some Chinese criticize Japan. For instance, I can’t imagine one of my students or friends wishing for the historic genocide of the Korean people or saying they wished America had used nukes against the entire population of Korea — yet they’ve said this about Japan. Korea-bashing looks almost quaint by comparison when you hear someone call for mass murder.
Correction. I misread it as an online poll rather than a large-n survey. But… It still seems weird to me.
Any idea where Mongolia came in the poll?
I’d like to be able to say something like ’splains a lot, pardner, but that would not be nice for the general population of Texas…
“Chinese tend to look down on the south’s brothers to the north as “Gaoli bangzi,” which is translated as “Korean hillbillies” but can also mean “Korean thugs.””
I disagree that “Gaoli bangzi,” is strictly reserved for North Koreans. It describes both North and South Koreans. It may have started out with describing North Koreans, but since then, it has expanded to South Koreans as well. And I think you’re painting a too rosey of a picture when you say it means “hill billies”. It’s probably equivalent to Korean descriptions of Chinese as “Jjajang” or “Jjangkke”.
“On the other hand, with regard to Japan, I have never heard this disdain for Koreans ever manifest itself in the dramatic way some Chinese criticize Japan.”
Chinese may not like Japan, but they have a healthy dose of respect. Same thing can’t be said of Korea. It’s more palatable for them to see Japanese successes, rather than Korea’s. Korea in history always was under China’s thumb, forced to pay tributes to China. Chinese almost consider Korea as if it’s a Chinese provincial outpost ,part of the Chinese empire. That mindset is still strongly set to this day.
“I think the world will be very interesting when the Chinese per capita GDP hits 10 grands in maybe 10 to 20 years.”
That may take a little bit more longer to happen, if this article is true:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....echnology/
Not quite that clear cut CM, the Economist explains in more detail what everyone else hasn’t bothered to read beyond the catchy headline. I really can’t stand economic innumerates. The sheer certainty behind their obliviousness is just tooth-grindingly annoying.
See here
The World Bank’s estimate for China is widely used by economists. Yet few realise that it is based on a lot of guesswork, as the bank’s previous international price surveys have not included China. Instead, it extrapolated from a study of prices in America and China that dates all the way back to the 1980s. The bank’s latest price-comparison study, due to be published in mid-December, does include China for the first time, and preliminary evidence indicates that its GDP has been overstated in the past. In a recent article in the Financial Times, Albert Keidel, an economist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, noted that PPP figures published by the Asian Development Bank (ADB), as part of its input into the World Bank’s International Comparison Programme, implied that China’s GDP was 40% smaller than the number reported by the World Bank. Interestingly, the new figure is very close to what the Big Mac index has indicated all along.
Mr Keidel’s claim is itself based on some guesswork. The ADB report does not actually reveal the yuan’s revised PPP rate against the dollar, as it only compares prices with those in Hong Kong, not America. To derive dollar PPPs Mr Keidel has assumed that relative prices in Hong Kong and America have not changed since previous studies. If this holds, then China’s implied GDP is indeed 40% smaller than before. The World Bank says that it is still discussing the final numbers. Note, however, that the ADB figures imply that India’s GDP is also now 40% smaller, even though India has taken part in previous international pricing surveys (suggesting that Hong Kong’s PPP may in fact have changed). It is thus possible that China’s GDP may be trimmed by less than 40% when the World Bank publishes its final report.
Nominal per capita GDP will likely remain on target to reach 10k USD in about 15 years at least based on a projection from the previous decade. Note that this is actually exchange rate figure and not a PPP adjusted one.
I gotta wonder how all this nationalistic netizenship bodes for the Beijing Games in 8 months. Korea and especially these days, China, have had some rather big and ugly “sportsmanship meltdowns” whenever they’ve hosted such big events. They will compete head-to-head in a lot of the team ball sports. Adding to the mix, North Korea’s surly athletes and delegates often seem like brawls waiting to happen.
Brendon is right about outsider/insider distinction in Korea that results in a lack of public manners, and generally poor treatment of foreigners. But we’ve got to add to that Korea’s unique type of class culture - its tendency to worship the powerful and wealthy(saedaejui), while disrespecting the poor and weak, to understand why lesser developed nations in the neighborhood have such a negative impression of Koreans. Increasing numbers of Chinese tourists and factory workers now have the chance to directly experience Korean pretentiousness. And, look which nation Koreans respect the most.. why its the all powerful USA.. no surprise there. For a personal anecdote, I remember how much my wealthy Filipino college roommate disliked Koreans because of how they looked down on him during a trip to Seoul. If they only knew how much money this guy had, I’m sure they would have changed their tune - but he was of darker complexion, from SE Asia, which means ‘low class’ to many Koreans. It’s interesting how different countries treat the rich and poor. The US is now one of the most unequal countries in the world in terms of income distribution, with a GINI closing in on Latin America, yet Americans put on a kind of “everyone is equal” illusion, and class background is less apparent. Korean income distribution is still more equal than the US, yet my impression is that the rich and powerful get more respect here - western foreigners are looked down on for being ‘only’ English teachers, those large black sedans tend to get more respect on the road. From personal experience, I definitely feel I’m respected much more in public in Korea when I wear a suit. Fewer people bump into me on the street for starters.
Perhaps its a cultural remnant from the Chosun Dynasty. Hard to say, but it’s easy to see why Chinese and S/SE Asians would have a negative view of Korea.
“But we’ve got to add to that Korea’s unique type of class culture - its tendency to worship the powerful and wealthy(saedaejui)”
uh.. I’m sorry, for Chinese to complain that Koreans look down on poor people.. I’m sorry.. but if it ain’t the pot calling the kettle black.
“Chinese and S/SE Asians would have a negative view of Korea.”
How do Chinese view South East Asians and Africans?
“Korea that results in a lack of public manners,”
How are Chinese public manners?
CM - Nobody is claiming that Chinese dislike Koreans for having a class system. They simply don’t like being looked down on by Koreans. I’m sure they’d love the Korean class system if Koreans thought they were the greatest. Bad public manners generally are not appreciated by visitors. Chinese in China wouldn’t be visiting, presumably. But my point was more about how Koreans tend to particularly look down on foreigners from poor countries, and to be somewhat more accomodating to the ones from richer countries.
A recent story showing response to an American pri’ma donna’
‘Madonna taking Yoga’
The pop queen paid a visit to the Reebok Sports Club on Columbus Avenue Saturday morning for a yoga class. According to a member of the class, when Madonna started talking to the instructor and he told her talking wasn’t allowed, she replied, “I need to speak to you,” and then said to the class, “I want you all to leave.” The teacher left with all 25 students. Madonna remained in the room practicing and wouldn’t leave when a 10:30 a.m. dance class was to start.
…if you are not part of the group, you are often treated as a nobody.
I’ve heard this sort of thing being said about Koreans by the Expat-Group-Mentality so many times in such a way that an uninformed one would think it’s a uniquely Korean characteristic. But tell me, what part of the human race does not adhere to this observation, one way or another, making modifications, of course, as to what is defined as “group’?
‘Chinese feel that they were fooled by the Koreans using K-Drama to show Korea as modern and wealthy when in fact it’s poorer than China. So they feel betrayed that Korea was doing this underhandedly. (backlash against Hallyu?)’ cm
Korea is poorer than China? Is that what the Chinese conclude when they actually go to Korea? Perhaps they are on drugs during their visit.
As for K dramas, nobody is betraying anybody since only a fool would use a TV show to gauge the wealth and poverty of a nation. Of course, quite a few people fall for this kind of thinking. I’ve met quite a few Philipinos in the past two years who tell me they’re very disappointed in America. Many of them think American TV doesn’t portray the true reality of America and it’s from American TV that they got their ideas about the US.
…yet Americans put on a kind of “everyone is equal” illusion, and class background is less apparent.
Herein lies the key to the differences in perception.
The problem is YOU, the expat. You have been brainwashed for years by Political Correctness to think that everyone is somehow equal. Sounds great in theory but mostly irrelevant in practical reality because of the fundamentally fallen state of human nature. You’re perpetually “surprised” by what is just normal to the rest of the world.
There is only one kind of human equality on this Earth, which is completely true.
“You all SUCK equally” - God.
Romans 3:23
He’s right. I grew up thinking everybody in the world stopped at red traffic lights (or got ticketed), and doubly so when children were crossing. Boy, was I wrong about that one.
“perhaps they are on drugs during their visit.”
Everything in Korea is blame Japan or blame English teachers.
Thomo asked about Mongolia, but I want to know if Japan was third most liked, and second most hated, how did Korea do on the liked list?
And what about Vietnam, Myanmar, India, Philippines…. etc…
dokdoforever,
It is unfortunate truth that dark people from poor country get looked down by everybody, it’s not just Korean thing. It’s funny when Chinese or southeast Asian complain about being looked down by the Koreans. Chinese also look down on southeast Asian as much as Koreans and Japanese do. Filipino also look down on Laotian, Cambodians and Hmongs. Chinese also look down on each other. It’s also funny when Koreans complain about being looked down by the Japanese. In the USA, Americans look down on Mexicans. They look down on Mexicans so much that the issue of illegal immigration became huge. If Mexicans were blue eye, blond hair pearly white skin people, do you think illegal immigration issue will be this big? I think only people who doesn’t get universally get looked down is blond hair, blue eye, pearly white skin 6 foot tall Caucasian. It is an unfortunate truth.
That explains a lot.
Pawi, this is one of those rare moments where I agree with you. Anybody who’s been to China knows that living and public sanitation there are much lower than in Korea. Chinese dramas are much like Korean dramas, with mostly upper middle class characters. It’s all about escapism. A family of four (grandma, dad, mom, kid) crammed into a 600 sq. ft. apartment with no hot water or a flushing toilet doesn’t want to see people living like themselves. I don’t know why Chinese would expect any differently from Korean dramas.
China finances our buying because our buying keeps their workers employed. It’s a co-dependent, mutually enabling relationship. The debt itself is our real problem, not the the nationality of our banker. The Chinese government itself estimates that it will take eighty years to reach fully developed status, and there are many obstacles to overcome.
Gotta agree with #61 about people sucking equally
Thing is #59 and #61 don’t live in Korea and don’t know what it’s like to be a foreigner in Korea, so really they don’t have a clue really, they are just talkin out of their asses.
People everywhere look down on others but most Koreans look down on everyone in general at least that’s the feeling I get from Korean adults, and I’ve been teaching them for over 9 yrs now.
Chinese are loud and dirty people.
Japanese are selfish and dishonest.
Americans are arrogant.
The list goes on…
While traveling about Europe I didn’t know who was ruder — Chinese or Korean tourists.
Koreans tend to have an air of arrogance, especially since the 2002 world cup.
Sure this isn’t just a Korean thing but as someone said “here is Korea”.
japanese are dishonest is my means
the feelin i get from readin yer post is that i hope you havent ben teachin koreans english.
to our Haters:
@58, 60 Except for your very pawi-esque swipe at ALL expats (thanks for the retarded generalization of me and all of my clones–the expats), I agree with this. I’ve read about this “Koreans treat people outside of the group as non-persons” concept in Korean culture, and I’ve had it explained to me by others many times, but after years here, I still can’t it. It’s indeed tough to deny that Koreans, in general, are very conscious of the group. But, I don’t agree that they are much more disdainful to those outside of their groups than in other societies.
@59 thanks for making sense and sparing me and “my brothers” your Hate here.
Cm,
The Chinese economy has been growing at about 11-13% a year for the last 15 years or so. It they can keep that up for another 12 years, they would be able to quadruple their income level in that time. If they can’t, it would take longer, but probably not by much. Currently their p.c. GDP is about $2,000, but on PPP basis it’s almost $8,000 already, which suggests their currency is hugely undervalued, so it’s likely to appreciate significantly against the dollar in the coming years. Under such assumptions, their p.c. GDP would likely to reach $10,000 by around 2020.
Their growth rate would likely to slow down afterwards, but in another 12 years or so they should be able to double that to reach $20,000.
#65 Yes, I noticed I got treated a lot better; blond hair and a confident attitude helped immensely. This accident of genetics helped me have a much better time in Korea than some.
#69 Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh, and one more thing - if I were a Korean who’d spent my whole life fighting tooth and nail to get ahead in my own extremely competitive and hierarchical society, I don’t know how welcoming I’d be to any outsider joining my group/getting my level of respect without having slogged through all the years of crap.
And as to the race/nationality issue - Koreans are just the same as eeeeeeeeeverybody else when you take them out of Korean society. The overwhelming feeling I got from most of the Koreans I worked with was “there’s GOTTA be more to life than THIS” but sadly most of them are firmly ensconced in the highest position in Korean society they could attain and have invested far too much of themselves in said position to be able to change.
If the Chinese are holding 1 trillion dollars of US debt, then it is the Chinese problem, not the US. What kind of collateral do they have?
If this was an online poll, I believe there’s good possibility that its results were valid. I’ve noticed recently that there’s been a lot of spurious rumors about Koreans going around the Chinese internet. For example, that Koreans claim Confucius is “Korean”, or that Koreans invented Chinese medicine. There was also a book written by an extremist Korean “historian” that showed Korea ruling over the majority of what is now.. eastern China. This book was being introduced to the Chinese internet as a history book being taught in the Korean military.
I’d say that these rumors, regardless of their validity, spread throughout the Chinese internet as rapidly as the degree of their provocation. I believe this is similar to what happened in Korea after the Anton Ohno “Hollywood” action incident and the Hyosoon/Miseon incident(the girls who got run over by an American tank). There were a lot of spurious, and very provocative, rumors rapidly spreading throughout the internet. An example of such a rumor is that the American soldier ran over the girls multiple times and enjoyed it. Of course, that’s an utterly untrue, nonetheless a lot of it were circulated in the internet.
While these rumours eventually resulted in an overwhelming anti-American sentiments in Korea due to high network penetration there, I wouldn’t say the same about China due to its very low network penetration. So, if these anti-Korean sentiments are based on internet rumours, they’ll be largely restricted to those who have access to the internet. Hence, I find it quite possible that the poll, if online, is valid to the extent that it represents the Chinese online community.
As for the Chinese in general.. my personal impression is that most of them are eitehr netural or favorable towards Koreans, while they harbor a near-racist hatred towards the Japanese. Some here have argued that all the recent historical controversies have mired Chinese perception of Koreans, but surprise surprise, the majority of Chinese, including those in Northeast China where the Koguryo remains are located, have no idea about the controversy all thanks to the state-controlled Chinese media. They just read about the “Chinese” Koguryo kingdom without knowing the controversy and the hatred it’s generating on the other side of the Yalu.
Nobody better be calling JohnT’s phone til well into this afternoon. That boy’s been drinking aaaaaall night.
Wow, 1.3 billion people in China, and so many people here are so confident in divining how they all tend to think about Koreans. “The Chinese think this,” “The Chinese think that.” Impressive indeed!
The Chinese don’t dislike Korea because of history, or culture, or anything else… It’s because they’re suspicious about SK’s motives in cloning glowing cats:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20.....reacloning
Cydevil, yeap, you got it. The rumors about the Koreans will only grow bigger if you factor in that China’s broadband rate is only going to grow bigger. I just don’t know what to think of it. I suppose there have been some Korean nutizens stirring up the hornet’s nest, but I also think that many of them are revenging and lashing out against Chinese government’s North East Asian History project which includes not only Koguryo but also even Baekchae, as Chinese states.
For amusement sake, I’ll further list rumors about Koreans in the Chinese internet world which I’ve been studying for the last few months.
1) Most Koreans can’t afford to eat meat because meat price is out of the reach of the average Korean, so most of them can’t eat them. They think barbecued pork bellies are high class foods. That’s why they can only eat rice and kimchi. Just look at the K-drama, their food looks like what our peasants ate 30 years ago.
2) There are no beautiful women in Korea - they’re all plastic surgery fakes - so unlike our natural Chinese beauties.
3) American government is the real government in Korea. S.Korea government is a just a puppet.
4) Korea is a slave nation. First they were slaves to China, then Japan, now America.
5) Koreans are really descendants of ancient Chinese people but ingrates they are, they’re forgetting this. They think that they’re white.
6) Korea cheated in WC 2002, that’s how they went to semi finals. (to be fair, Chinese aren’t the only ones who keep bringing this up).
7) Despite the glitz shown on K-dramas, most Koreans are too poor because their low wages aren’t enough buy high priced goods.
9) Koreans are dirty and noisy (ironic considering that that’s the stereotypes of Chinese held by Koreans)
10) North Koreans aren’t refugees, they are illegal immigrant pests - need to be deported out of China. Die Pang-zi’s!
11) China is going to overtake the United States economically in 10 years, what’s Korea? Just a tiny country that’s smaller than one of the Chinese provinces. They have no future in facing the Great China. China can send rockets to the moon, what does Korea have?
12) Jun Ji-Hyun and Song Hye-Gyo are ethnic Chinese. Their surnames suggest that they are ethnic Chinese girls with natural beauty. (And here I thought most Korean names are from Chinese writings).
I’m tired of hearing Chinese brag about their space program. How many times have the Chinese landed on the moon? And if they do so with technology that is almost 40 years move advanced than the US had when Armstrong landed, should they really be proud of their “dominance?”
exexpatPete - a tall blonde guy named Pete - spend any time at UCSD by chance?
No we don’t. We often compare ourselves to ourselves. Why would you think our people are itching and dying to get out of the country and work abroad, whatever that country is?
Been living here in Korea for 5 years, and I’ll be ending that next year. I know what it feels like to be sympathized by my Korean colleagues and bosses, as well as looked down by a bigoted few. That’s all I need to learn about this culture, it’s no different from everywhere else I’ve worked and lived. They may have stronger inclinations for one type of nationality over the other, but don’t we all?
Anyway, just to add, the Chinese-hatred-over-the-Japanese thing rings true, at least from the conversations I had with my friends during my brief 2-month stay in Beijing.
Next stop: Macau, baby!
Just saw something so typical of people wealthy enough to own cars here in China. After I got a flu shot, I was walking out of the hospital parking lot. Where two lanes merge into one there was a fender bender between two cars. Neither driver would cede to other other so they both tried to get into the lane at the same time — and thus car damage and associated delays. So typical.
#79 Ha, what a good laugh.
I remember that Confucius incident. It was just one crazy guy claiming that Confucius was Korean. No one in Korea took him seriously or even cared. The reaction by the Chinese netizens was incredibly immature and racist. All kinds of hateful and racist comments were left on the internet. You would assume that the Chinese netizens had enough sense to distinguish 1 looney historian from an entire country. I guess the Chinese are unaware of the concept of freedom of speech. Maybe thats why they took offense, since they are so used to being spoon fed information by the government.
In another incident there was this Korean historian who wrote a book about China. Rumors surfaced that the book mocked Chinese people, culture and claimed that the Chinese were inferior to the Koreans. Chinese netizens were in rage and said all sorts of horrible stuff you wouldnt want to hear. Eventually some Chinese person who could read Hangul obtained a copy of the book and told everyone that the book was an ordinary book on Chinese history and that the rumors were false. Everyone shut up after that and im pretty sure they were embarrassed as hell too. There was no objectivity or common sense in these incidents. Instead they believed rumor after rumor despite how ambiguous they were. I guess thats what the Sankei Shimbuns wants. They want Koreans to side more and more with the Japanese.
“I guess thats what the Sankei Shimbuns wants. They want Koreans to side more and more with the Japanese.”
No they don’t. They’re getting in their own shots on Korea via the multitude of China/Korea history issues/chasms. The Japanese right wing are even coming up with brilliant ideals like supporting China on the Koguryo issue in return for the seat in the UN Security council. I don’t know if China will bite on that, but they may if this history thing with Korea gets bigger.
“That’s all I need to learn about this culture, it’s no different from everywhere else I’ve worked and lived.”
You know it’s funny how everyone assumes that you’d be spit on and hated on in Korea if you’re a brown Asian. Minus the news stories about the abused 3-D workers and foreign brides, it’s always “well I know this Filipino (or whatever) who hated this place because he was treated so bad with racism”. It’s always the “I know this person” who always have problems. Even Koreans fall into this trap. Many Koreans see a brown person, and they go “oh you poor thing, it must be so difficult living here with everyone treating you like crap”. It must be f*cking annoying to be treated with sympathy all the time.
Probably the Parisian waiter.
Funny… I thought that was what the Internet was for besides porn.
Anyhow, without really knowing a whole lot more on this poll’s methodology, or even what questions were asked, isn’t speculating on why the poll turned out the way it did sort of pointless? It seems like that sort of speculation would just be an invitation to project one’s own prejudices and negative experiences onto a dubious statistical result.
#85,
Yep, it sure is. Makes us feel like we’re some kind of inferior beings that needs to be pitied upon or looked down to. When people aren’t sure of something, they either 1) fear it, 2) loathe it, 3) assume their circumstances even if the facts are otherwise. There are times I take them by face value; other times, I take them with a grain of salt.
I have no regrets having worked here for 5 years. There are nice people, and not-so-nice people. I’ve met these same faces in various forms, degrees and personalities from other countries I’ve been to: Palau, Japan, USA (CA), Yap Islands, Guam, India (New Delhi) and China (Beijing). I guess people will always be people, otherwise we’d all have wings and partying in heaven!
@ #84, if I may:
“I remember that Dokdo/Takeshima incident. It was just one ins