Actually, the same thing happened to me once, except it was the Immigration Department, not the local Ministry of Education. We were able to resolve the problem, however, by translating the diploma from Latin into English. (HT to Western Confucian)
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34 Comments
Lord have mercy.
So would one type the entire diploma into babelfish using the “Latin -> English” translation and then have someone translate that into Korean then?
What happens when some education official decides that only someone who is certified in Latin can translate the document then?
I think this will mean profits for some people unless Ministry of Education personnel are too cheap to use it.
A similar thing happened to a South African teacher I met around ten years ago. Upon bringing his paperwork in for his E-2, he was told by an Immigration officer that he could not teach English because he wasn’t a native speaker. When he tried protesting that he was, in fact, a native speaker of English, he was challenged on the basis of his degree. According to the officer, it was written in “African,” therefore he couldn’t possibly be a native speaker. (I’m not making this up!) Anyway, after discussing it with some other officials who accepted that the language in question was actually Latin, he eventually got his visa acceptance paper. Nice to know that things haven’t changed all that much in the last ten years!
A degree from an English-speaking country written in Latin is reasonably equivalent to a document from Korea written in Chinese characters… no?
I do think the teacher was going a bit overboard, though. I mean really, just because they have some administrative hoops doesn’t mean the country will be any less sparkling, does it?!?
On a more serious note:
is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? cure is worse than the disease? or, _insert cliche here__
This begs the question, does one need to be a unilingual anglophone to be considered a native speaker of English? Apparently so, according to some Korean Immigration officers. Is it also possible for someone to grow up speaking more than one language at home and thus being a native speaker in more than one language, as I am? Apparently not, according to the same Korean Immigration officers. “Oh, but your degree is not in English. You can’t possibly be a native speaker”. “Alright, here’s another one. This one is in English.”
Someguy, you are absolutely right; however, whenever I explain to most people here that my son holds two passports and speaks two languages, they have a difficult time getting their heads around it. It just doesn’t seem to fit or make any sense to them.
It would appear that Immigration - a government department that one might assume has encountered numerous cases of this sort previously - is equally incapable or unwilling to grasp the concept.
When I had to go through the rigours of immigration last year, I basically had to translate my diploma from Latin into English. My boss then took it to a lawyer’s office to be notarised and the vultures were satisfied.
I had about two years of Latin in university. It finally came in handy. American universities, such as the University of Pennsylvania do provide translations of their degrees from Latin into English upon request. I translated my own diploma because I had about three years of the language. there is only one recruiter I know of (namely the head office of YBM ECC) that requires holders of Latin diplomas to send in translations.
This time, for the E-2 visa process, I have sent my translation off to the Secretary of State for apostille. It is a huge hassle, to be sure. One hopes that under the new visa regulations, they might better keep track of these things! But I doubt it.
“With the new E-2 visa regulations becoming law soon, one has to wonder whether the Korean government is able to administer them correctly and efficiently.”
Well, well well… You are dealing with retards (like Baduk “Koreans are morally superior”). Accept that you are dealing with morons who wheeled and dealed their way to where they are (as low as that is) and don’t expect the impossible.
I actually work with the author of the piece and while some might cast aspersions on his conclusions, the matter has gone from humorous to farcical. The issue as I see it, is one of duplicated roles for bureaucracy, requiring the person in question to jump through a second set of meaningless hoops whilst providing a sense of self-importance for a couple of incompetent boobs. It has been pointed out to the Chungbuk Educational Board that Immigration have no problem with the degree, but they have countered that they do not trust the other department and thus feel compelled to launch their own investigation. You can imagine the zeal that the polyester shirt-wearing second-rater in charge must feel, but how much will this pointless exercise be costing the taxpayer at the end of the day? Seems to me that a one-stop process is needed so the brains-trust of the educational bureaucracy here can go back to smoking cigarettes and planning nights out on the soju as they do best.
#9,
“It has been pointed out to the Chungbuk Educational Board that Immigration have no problem with the degree, but they have countered that they do not trust the other department and thus feel compelled to launch their own investigation.”
To which point I would reply, “Fine, but you’re wasting your time and the taxpayers’ money.”
#10 Since when would that trump the smug feeling of self-righteousness of the average Korean (or most other) bureaucrat?
So if a Korean goes to school in the United States and receives a degree in English, they then become native speakers? That’s sofa king awesome!
#12,
And if a native speaker of English studies in Korea, he or she becomes Korean?
#11,
Depends who it’s coming from. From a 23 year-old hagwon guy straight out of university, probably not. An old timer like me who’s been in Korea for over a decade and can actually make that snide remark in Korean, maybe.
#14,
Neither of us work in a hagwon and are both the wrong side of 23. I don’t quite know where that places us in your scale of importance.
#14.
Oh, how I long for the ability to make snide remarks in Korean. I think I’d do that all day.
I’ve only been able to do it once, with a taxi driver. “don an ju wa yo?”
#14 Someguy, I think that saying something snidely in Korean could help, but it might also have the opposite effect. I’ve encountered plenty of government - national and local - beaurocrats and university admin. types who couldn’t care less if I were a “house” or “field” foreigner, especially if I’m stepping on his sack. (This isn’t unique to Korea: Go to Revenue Canada, the Ontario Ministry of Education, or your univerity registrar’s office and see how much they appreciate a little snideness on Monday morning. Even if they happen to deserve it!)
#9 “Seems to me that a one-stop process is needed so the brains-trust of the educational bureaucracy here can go back to smoking cigarettes and planning nights out on the soju as they do best.”
You left out drinking instant coffee and fantasizing over apartment listings on the internet!
“Bureaucrats” not “beaurocrats!” Major dumbass typo! Especially seeing as Someguy speaks French.
#15,
Wasn’t suggesting you were.
#17,
Maybe, but I just don’t care. Then again, I’ve got the F-5, so I can make snide remarks at Immigration all they and they wouldn’t be able to do a damned thing.
#18,
Shh, I wouldn’t want to be labeled as a ‘non-native speaker’ by the high and mighty Korean Ministry of Bureaucracy.
Correction…’all day’, not ‘all they’.
No. It’s reasonably equivalent to a Korean document written in Classical Chinese. Which is not the same as a text in Korean with lots of Chinese characters.
#21,
I guess you’ve never heard anyone say, “Latin is Chinese to me.”
#19 “Maybe, but I just don’t care. Then again, I’ve got the F-5, so I can make snide remarks at Immigration all they and they wouldn’t be able to do a damned thing.”
Don’t get too cocky, I believe that an F5 doesn’t prevent deportation for criminal acts, and I’m sure immigration could make some up if they felt inclined to. Perhaps, “grave insult to the nation of Korea”, as a result of being snidey to a state official.
#24,
I doubt it. It would become a matter of human rights. Don’t forget why I have the F-5.
#23,
I doubt it. It would become a matter of human rights. Don’t forget why I have the F-5.
Forgive me for going off topic, but in regard to #25, Someguy, why do you have an F-5, and how would the Korean government’s actions against you be considered a human rights issue? I’m sorry, but I do not know this story, although I’ve been reading this forum for a long time.
(For what it’s worth I too have an F-5, but I got mine through being married and working here for ten years or so, the last few years on an F2-1 visa.)
#26,
Okay, so you do realize I was joking, right?
As for my comment about human rights, take a look at articles 12 and 16 (particularly 16.3) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
…basically, that is why the F visas were created.
Aaronm, you said, “I actually work with the author”. I knew a man with the same name here in Korea in 2000. Yet, the article said something about his working here for almost three years. THe man I know is very much involved in Hae Dong Gum Do, a Korean martial art.
Could you tell me if this is the same guy or if I have my facts wrong? I understand that blog comments are no place to divulge information about a third party, so you could email me at kwandongbrian (at) gmail (dot) com or tell the author I was asking about him if you prefer.
Thanks in advance.
More like, as we say in French, “It’s Hebrew to me”
kwangdong Brian:
I don’t believe they are the same person. The holder of the Latin diploma appears to spell his first name differently — like a notorious Roman — and to be a Brit not a Canadian. The swordsman also has been here a lot longer.
“More like, as we say in French, “It’s Hebrew to me”
Actually, ‘C’est du chinois’ is also a French idiomatic expression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCR89S-7-EU
Indeed. Alhough I’ve always preferred the Hebrew version, since I don’t speak that language
Sperwer,
Thanks. I didn’t think they could be the same, but a Canadian could go to a British university, after all (if he wrote further about being British, I missed it).