Yesterday, my coworkers and I were talking about a few things over coffee and the subject of the Wonder Girls came up. I contributed to the conversation by mentioning this blog entry by the Metropolitician.
Some of the guys laughed, some looked puzzled, and some whom I know harbor strong anti-US feelings didn’t look too happy. One female coworker, however, had this to say about the Metropolitician;
How dare he say that! Who does the guy think he is? If he doesn’t like the Wonder Girls then why doesn’t he just go back to the States, where he doesn’t have to listen to them? What a jerk!!
At first, I was a bit taken back by the reaction. I assumed that she was a Wonder Girls fan, which might more or less explain the reaction, but she wasn’t. Anyways one of my male coworkers enlightened me on the situation.
When Americans say critical things about a Korean pop group or singer, some Koreans feel that the Americans are attacking Koreans and Korean culture. It brings out anti-American feelings in some Koreans. For what it’s worth, I don’t like the Wonder Girls either.
Anti-Americanism over a bunch of underaged girls who can’t sing and dance? Come on the guy was saying how he feels about the Wonder Girls, a sentiment a lot of Koreans also share. It’s not like he was attacking Korea. On the other hand, this is Korea, so….
111 Comments
“….some whom I know harbor strong anti-US feelings didn’t look too happy.”
These kind of guys are the best to get drunk with. “Lots of Han, lots of fun,” I say.
I can’t get the metro’s blog to load. I don’t even know who the Wonder Girls are.
Well, to be fair, as an American, I have a difficult time criticizing anybody’s pop culture…
For those of you who do not know who the Wonder Girls are, I’ve linked a Wiki page about them in my original post.
I’m sure the Metropolitician can easily think of stronger reasons to quit Korea than a crap girl group (is there any other kind?) on local TV.
I’d have no trouble as an American criticizing the pop cultures of Korea, Japan, the UK … to name a few that I’ve experienced — and I’m no fan or follower of the US pop scene.
Aren’t the Wonder Girls sort of Morning Musume impersonators?
I thought mins0306 had been introduced to this blog as a Korean (I mean, Korean citizen) blogger.
#6.
I believe that you are thinking that the person in question in the original post is me. Although I’m telling the story, the person in question is the Metropolitician.
That’s totally funny that you even had this conversation with coworkers about that blog entry, and I’m flattered you thought to.
It always bewilders me, though, even though I’ve been living here for most of my adult life, that having an opinion about something – even something as very NON-all-encompassing as why I think the Wonder Girls are an insult to the very idea of “music” and “talent” – has to be interpreted as “hating Korea.” Very frustrating.
And the context of this (for me, what makes The Wonder Girls most distasteful) is that I see it against the backdrop of a society that has a very real social problem (as recognized within this society) with teenage prostitution. You know, we’re not making this up, and all you have to do is pick up a newspaper or glance at a “sports newspaper.”
In any case, I think that demonstrating a specific interest in something and displaying the knowledge required to even have an opinion on something should be seen as a sign of interest in the culture, not some deep-seated hatred of it.
If some Korean person said, “I think Paris Hilton sucks ass and I think she’s a sign of what’s wrong with America”, I’d get into a debate about Paris Hilton and what I think she means, or I’d agree, or what have you.
I love Pak Jin Young. And I made the criticism in terms of how talented JYP is, and how much his Wonder Girls don’t add up to even half his talent.
Does that make me “pro-Korea”? Maybe we should just do a tally of how many pop groups I like/dislike and do it that way?
Or perhaps remind the office worker who said “If he doesn’t like the Wonder Girls then why doesn’t he just go back to the States, where he doesn’t have to listen to them? What a jerk!!” that it’s a POP GROUP and she should perhaps contextualize a bit before offering a foreigner who has put years of his life into this society into the “I hate you!” category.
I think this debate’s interesting, but frustrating at the same time - having to convince people to not hate you because you hate a silly pop group with no visible talent besides looking like a Jodi-Foster-Taxi-Driver jailbait shouldn’t get an adult all riled up.
And as for being of a certain nationality and having an opinion about pop culture, I don’t see why that should matter at all, especially when pop culture is a matter of artistic expression, taste, and inherently, personal opinion. And when the Wonder Girls are in your face 24/7, you’re going to end up with an opinion on them.
As for the site, it’s still blocked by certain ISP’s, and I’ve given up on trying to figure it out. Oh, well – perhaps I’ve pissed off someone higher up with a post or two – sheet, if the Wonder Girls sends full-grown adults into a tizzy, imagine my OTHER posts!
Here is Korea. Pretty pathetic that some here take it as an assault on the entire country for not liking some crappy girl band. I mean really. WTF?!?!?
I think your coworkers need to learn how to pick their battles, mins. Do they fly off the handle if an ex-pat doesn’t like kimchi too?
*Waits for a new presidential decree requiring all foreign scum residents to listen to Krappy Korean boy bands and girl groups at least 2 hours a day or risk deportation.*
Last line was supposed to say scum with a line through it.
These talentless, cookie-cutter girl groups are more or less a fungible commodity… It’s really not impersonation, it’s a genre.
Seen it happen…. although that was when someone actually started giving reasons why they didn’t like it, rather than just letting people assume it was because it was ‘too spicy.’
I prefer Korean music (especially k-pop 1994-2000) over American any day of the week.
By coincidence just yesterday on the KTX to Busan I was reading about these sorts of reactions and how to deal with them in Song-Hyon Jang’s and Tom Coyner’s book ‘Mastering Business in Korea,’ which I’ll give a link to below. Anyone here for longer than a few weeks will realise how prickly Koreans are to criticism of Korea and/or Koreans of any sort, and they do have some good practical advice for people for whom the success of multi-million dollar deals may well depend on how much he or she pretends to like kimchi.
Back in 2002 a Korean friend of mine tried explaining the unbeliavable reaction of Koreans to Apollo Ohno in the winter olympics by saying that Koreans regarded themselves as a family, and any criticism of a member of that family by outsiders, no matter how justified, was stubbornly and passionately reacted to. That’s a bit simplistic, and I’m not saying at all that that’s okay or it that justifies many Koreans effectively feeling that foreigners are not allowed to criticise anything Korean at all, but to me it does make Robert’s colleague’s reaction a bit more understandable.
http://www.seoulselection.com/.....l?pid=1271
Alghough I’ve never heard any Wonder Girl songs, one of the Wonder Girls used to be my student when I taught at Daewon Foreign Language High School. I can’t recognize her anymore due all the plastic surgery she’s had since.
Man, I hope hating the Wonder Girl doesn’t mean hating Korean culture (then I join my nihilistic Jewish friends as a fellow self-hater)… because that would equate Wonder Girl to Korean culture, and that’s very, very insulting to Koreans everywhere…
Assuming that Metro’s analysis is correct, I feel very disconnected to the Korean population at large all of sudden…
Glad to see Turnbull’s poked his head up. Some thread a couple weeks ago had me worried that we might need to hide the sharp objects.
#5: Wonder Girls are not rip offs of Japanese Morning Musume. Absurdly large number of members that continually come and go would characterize SoNyueSiDae and DongBangSinKi, brought to you by SM Entertainment of HOT, SES and ShinHwa.
#8. Geez, teenage prostitution? Isn’t that going a bit too far? Sports newspapers are crap, if that’s where you’re getting your perspectives from. Wonder Girls are just a younger version of Finkl, SES who obviously held the role of sexual exploitation in Korea, if one were to follow your reasoning. But they weren’t. The coworkers’ reactions to criticism of the Wonder Girls were absurd because they generalized it to a mucher bigger scope. You are making the same mistake here.
Now personally, if the Wonder Girls are entertaining enough, (most Koreans do find it that way) that alone qualifies them to do whatever they are doing best. Which is off-key singing and awkward dancing. If you are a purist for “music” and “talent”, then why don’t you stick to opera and classical music, because that’s where you’ll find your peers. Let’s face it, pop music of today is not so much about the music itself. While there are accomplished artists that do succeed commercially, it’s not a prerequisite.
I really think, however, that the younger generation readily admits many of the social problems in Korea, and are critical too. I think others here who have experience with younger koreans would agree.
Of all my korean friends (who live in korea), they seem very self-aware, proactive and cognizant of korea’s problems. Then again, they’re all under 30 years old and therefore don’t have much power to change things…
foreigners should know better then to mention criticism of korean culture to a hard core kimchi bleeding korean.
most koreans suffer from a distinct and unique form of cultural cringe - simple examples of its symptoms are the speaking of english being regarded as a status symbol, or how people like 신정아 gained social advancement by fooling everyone that she went to a respectable school in the US. the korean cultural inferiority complex manifests itself uniquely in its aggressive defense mechanism.
Re: #16 Okay, I’m probably setting myself up here, but sorry, I don’t get it.
“Geez, teenage prostitution? Isn’t that going a bit too far?”
Sorry, man. I don’t think it’s going too far at all. Wonder Girls played at my university this fall, 99% of the crowd were guys. You think they were there for the singing? And yes, Korea does have a problem with prostitution, teenage and otherwise. In fact, the girl at the anma and I were talking about it last night.
Does 2007 remind anyone else of 1997?
#21. Give those kids a break. From the opposite perspective, you wouldn’t expect throngs of men at a Backstreet Boys concert, now would you? Or they all must be gay right? And yes, they were there for the singing and dancing of cute little girls. (That song has a beat that is maddeningly addictive.) But they weren’t there because they were little horny devils ready to offer the next school girl in uniform a lollipop in exchange for services much like the ones you seem to be buying. Nor were there any deep subconsious roots worth analysis. What’s so hard to understand about a fanbase that has the opposite sex to the artist? Hyori’s got sex appeal and commands loyal following of male fans. Big deal, the men are heterosexual. In this case they happen to be younger and they’ve got cute appeal. So?
Korea does have a problem with prostitution, but the Wonder Girls have nothing to do with it.
all this yap about teen prostitutes makes me queasy.
people are over blowing as something a lot more important than it is. im sure its somewhere in the top 20 social ills in SoKo, but no where near the top.
im also failing to see the “obvious connection” between the Wonder Girls and teen prostitution—probably because there isnt one.
Mins,
You bring an interesting dimension to this blog, but enough of the water cooler talk. Sure it might be interesting pub chatter to dwell on the insecurities of your xenophobic workmates, but it in no way holds true for the whole country. I have Korean friends here who are perfectly OK with criticism by moi of cultural phenomena. I could also tell you some of the racist crap I’ve heard from my fellow Australians over the years, but there is really nothing interesting about it at the end of the day.
You are entitled to your opinion, aarnom.
However, here, the topic’s less about xenophobia and more about my disbelief that a personal opinion of a “crappy girl group” could ignite emotions that was shown above. Now there is no better way of presenting this than via a “water cooler talk”, and in the future if I feel that a “water cooler talk” better presents my point, then I’ll use it.
Yes, you’re right not every Korean is xenophobic, but from my point of view, out of 10 Koreans I have run into , six or seven have shown xenophobic and nationalistic tendencies. So, unless there is a change in point of view by Koreans regarding xenophobia, expect more discussion regarding this topic in the future.
i enjoy these postings; water cooler talk is delectable. i work alone and nice to get a sense, however skewed, of what it is like to be around other people (especially Koreans who are saturated with the “foreigner experience”) on a daily basis.
that should be:
(especially Koreans who aren’t saturated with the “foreigner experience”)
“im also failing to see the “obvious connection” between the Wonder Girls and teen prostitution—probably because there isnt one.”
Foobat, you are wrong because you have underestimated The Metropolitician’s gifts to see sexuality where others don’t. Read his explanation of the advertisement marking the 30th anniversary of the subway line and be awed:
http://metropolitician.blogs.c.....vages.html
Wonder Girls, like, totally sucks. Girls’ Generation FTW!
“I love Pak Jin Young. And I made the criticism in terms of how talented JYP is, and how much his Wonder Girls don’t add up to even half his talent.”
I’d say that about any of the acts he has produced. They all fall short of his talent…which is why I find it totally ironic that one of his greatest hits was what inspired by Prince’s KISS. I guess you could see that he’s Korea’s answer to Prince in more ways than one.
Have we got two Turnbulls? “Suicide-inducing job…can’t find a job that suits my education…can’t leave Korea cuz Canada doesn’t pay as well…family to support…” Not you? Sorry for the mixup, but someone better check on that other Turnbull.
More on topic, it’s been years since I spent any time in Hongdae clubs, but I sure never heard a single Korean song in them. My litmus test: K-pop will be cool when cool Koreans will dance to it.
Nope, your memory of the details is a bit iffy, but that’s me. Lol, I DID rant a bit…
To be fair, I think a lot of people have a tendancy to circle the wagons when faced with criticism from a foreigner, even for something as trivial as a lousy pop group. While I’ve seen it taken to riduculous extremes in Korea, it’s by no means an exclusively Korean phenomenon.
Please also understand that as Westerners, especially Americans, we’re speaking from a cultural high ground in terms of pop culture. I think on some level, many Koreans are all too-aware that Korea is a pop culture underdog to America’s juggernaut, so criticism from an American to a Korean could seem a bit like kicking sand their face.
Wonder Girls? Well, they aren’t Lee Mi-ja, and if they aren’t Lee Mi-ja, I don’t give a rat’s ass.
I witnessed the same defensive phenomenon when my chica wanted to see “D-War” and I said I had heard it was an egregious waste of celluloid. After she made it clear she was hacked, I had to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’d get upset if you dissed any of the unoriginal crap coming out of Hollywood.”
The key word in your statement, Aaron, is “friends.” All of us here probably have Korean friends we can be candid with about our feelings. That’s true in any country or culture. Moreover, Mins did not generalize too much for he used the words “some Koreans,” not “many” or “most.”
let me ask you this.
Not the Koreans.
Who do you guys consider to have “talent” in the Korean music scene?
You pretty much ruled the pop girls and the pop boys, with the pop boys overwhelmingly labeled “GAY”, as sucky sucky.
List’em who you like to listen to.
You can’t say all are garbadge. You’re human. Some must sound nice when you’re drunk.
Is Lee Moon Sae or Yoon Do Hyun garbadge and no talent, too? Justify.
Mr. K, I think you found a highly unusual Korean in Mr. Min. He’s not representative of us and more like you guys if anything.
excellent work, by the way, Mins. Your stuff is as interesting as Mr. Koehler’s.
one other, for all the higher ed trained by-product of denouncing “homophobism” you guys have,
you have a real comfortable time
calling Korean boy pop groups
GAY.
Do I have to remind the true face of America regarding this issue?
what’s that song they sing in right field bleachers of Pigeons Stadium again?
listen carefully to those lyrics, too.
you got all the boys to yourself,
sucking _ _ _ _
you got the disease,
Y R U Gay?
I mean those are the lyrics. And they sing it loud and proud in 2004,2005,2006,2007, and most likely 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL97TOTl99c
Troll bait.
Was that guy in the video being arrested for singing the song? Man, that’s kind of harsh.
Starcraft Gosu-
Yeah it’s normal for a Justin Timberlake to have mostly girl fans, but I don’t think that works the other way around. Brittany Spears, other teenage girl pop stars, have a mostly young girl fan base, do they not? Younger guys usually go for heavy metal, rap, that kind of thing.
Maybe someday Koreans will feel secure in their national identity.
Can wjk finally desist from writing 5 posts in a row, please? That would be annoying even if done by someone with something insightful to say.
Any dull earthling with eyes and ears can agree that the Wonder Girls blew up because of their appearance (cuteness) and their dance coreography for “tell me” which boosts their cuteness hundredfold. Talentwise? Everyone knows they have the bare minimum talent for vocals, and their dance moves are above average, but no Beyonce.
I’m not sure how many know what I’m talking about, but there was a recent trend this summer with Soulja Boy’s “Crank Dat” dance video. Basically a guy made a song and a dance that came along with it and he put it up on myspace. He also put out an instructional video. Thousands of netizens uploaded their own versions on Youtube.
I noticed a very similar trend with Wonder Girls’ “Tell Me.” Their dance is cute and pleasant, and if you Youtube “wonder girls tell me” you will find a dozen or more netizens putting up their best imitations of the dance.
I forget my point, but the parallel is pretty cool.
Anyways, regarding this metropolitician guy - who cares, its his opinion. He wasted his time whining about another “bad” and “untalented” group of entertainers because they are more famous and most likely richer than he is. Snore. Get a new topic.
those Wonder Girls are hot when they gyrate. when pubescence is well-marketed, it is foolish to complain.
Thank you Mr. Koehler for the new masthead photo. Very wonderful to see a sturdy piece of Korean architecture surrounded by the colors of autumn. As with some of your other choice photos, it serves well to symbolize the best of the Korean spirit. With regard to the thread foregoing, may I suggest that pop culture of any origin is as harmful to the human spirit as petrochemicals, Korean or American, are to the Han River. By contrast, it is very uplifting to listen to 신영옥 sing 주 에수보다 더 귀한 것은 없네 or similar.
‘Mr. K, I think you found a highly unusual Korean in Mr. Min. He’s not representative of us and more like you guys if anything.’ wkj
you got that right. i don’t think he’s representative of koreans at all. in fact, i think he’s just an expat who has korean parents. too bad robert couldn’t find a korean who actually represents the korean side of the story but then, this is his blog.
‘one other, for all the higher ed trained by-product of denouncing “homophobism” you guys have, you have a real comfortable time calling Korean boy pop groups GAY.’ wjk
oh, you caught that contradiction too, wjk? it’s just another way the expat tries to disparage korean men. don’t get too worked up about it. they need to think these things.
‘i’m often mistaken for a movie star so i take all the pretty korean girls leaving the ugly ones for the korean guys.’ cmm’s actual words
“‘i’m often mistaken for a movie star so i take all the pretty korean girls leaving the ugly ones for the korean guys.’ cmm’s actual words”
pawikirogi, it is difficult to believe those are cmm’s actual words when they don’t appear at all in a simple Google search. If you’re going to continually constantly quote cmm (or anyone on any subject), then cite it with a working link.
http://www.google.com/search?h.....tnG=Search
You’re not alone aaronm; I complained about the ‘water cooler talk’, as you will, the last time too but unfortunately it wasn’t well received. In fact, I even went out of the way to give him good constructive ideas for the next post and all that gets me is a post about some girl band I don’t even know.
‘Reminds’ me of this conversation;
Sheila: Hey Art, ya know, my co-workers treat me like I’m not smart or anything and they never converse with me. How come they don’t like me?
Art: Well…to put it nicely, it’s not ’cause they don’t like you, it’s that they’d simply prefer to talk about things like poor government policies instead of Britney Spears’ waistline. I’m sure if you look up on similar topics of theirs that also interest you, they might talk to you more.
Sheila: Ok, I’ll give that a shot.
*next day*
Sheila: Hey ppl~…so uh…did you hear that the Spice Girls are getting reunited…?
Oh well, but I guess ignoring foreigners’ suggestions makes him as Korean as that anti-American co-worker…heck, mins might even be one of those powerful authorities who came up with ‘Sparkling Korea’. Respect, yo!
If pawi and wjk represent “the Korean side”, readers could be forgiven for drawing the (wrong) conclusion that Koreans are dumb as rocks and wouldn’t know a logical argument if it boned them in their asses in broad daylight.
How low must the comment quality bar be kept for these fuggin predictable morons?
THE Korean side?
우리측, 우리편, Our side, our side!
I made up this little chant after I started watching the Korean news and noticed how Korean government officials were often referred to as 우리측 or 우리편 in news stories on bilateral or multilateral meetings and negotiations. Even the North Koreans used to get 우리측ed and 우리편ed although the Korean media seem to avoid using those terms nowadays in its coverage of North-South news.
What you like or don’t like is pretty much up to you. You’re the one who’s got to see with your eyes, hear with your ears and walk in your shoes. If you like bundiggae and dog for dinner, that’s what you like. Anyone who tells you you’re wrong for liking it you can flip off with my blessing.
I, personally don’t like boy or girl bands here or in the states or anywhere. I don’t like the emphasis on dancing and appearance. I like musicians who pick up instruments. I like ugly musicians that can hold a tune, know what a beat is, use rythym charts. I like unique sounds rather than homogonous. I like it when they aren’t concentrating on dance moves so they aren’t out of breath and need to resort to lip-sync. I like an edgier sound. Singing pretty songs occasionally is alright, but every time? It gets a bit redundant.
That’s just me. I seem to be in the minority.
“I like ugly musicians that can hold a tune, know what a beat is, use rythym charts.”
Sorry, but that doesn’t really sell. We may or may not want to admit it but we all want something pretty to look at on TV. Is that such a crime? Does that bother some people so much? Too bad, but that’s just how pop culture is anywhere.
Wondergirls.. hmm.. what can we say about them? You can whine and whine all day about how they suck and somehow link it to sexual depravity to show all that is wrong with the immoral Korean society. But the fact of the matter is, they are number one on the charts in Korea, and in Thailand, and soon to sweep rest of South East Asia. They’re raking in the money and later they’ll become adult stars like Hyori, and they might even actually learn to sing. You can everyday, bitch, complain, bang heads, and scream all you want, you’re not going to change what Koreans want to see and listen to. Why can’t people accept the fact that different race and nationalities have different tastes?
It’s just music, why get your feathers ruffled over it?
The problem is you never gave me a suggestion to “ignore”. If I remember correctly, you suggested that I post something more “interesting and relevant”, but you never said what that “relevant and intersting” thing is supposed to be. So I wouldn’t say you “went out of the way to give me good constructive ideas”. Now why don’t you spell out exactly what you want, instead of going around saying that you hate “water cooler talk”. If you don’t have any ideas on what a more “interesting and relevant” post should be then I would suggest that you keep your mouth shut, because you are sounding irrelevant. And FYI, it would have just taken a little effort to click on the provided links to get some idea who this girl band is.
And me the powerful authority behind “Sparkling Korea?” Well, I wish I had that cushy high paying job. It beats having to deal with dumb, irrational, and nationalistic 386 generation bosses 55 hours per week.
“Who do you guys consider to have “talent” in the Korean music scene?”
The ones who play rock, blues, jazz, punk, and funk, not that you’d know they probably outnumber the K-pop bands 100 to 1 by looking at the TV.
PS. Some Korean-Americans have done quite well for themselves on the American music scene (Joe Hahn is probably the one that comes to everyone’s mind but, interestingly enough, James Iha (yes, that James Iha) is supposedly of Korean descent).
#56,
That doesn’t sell well?! Hello! What about The Rolling Stones, Kiss, Aerosmith, David Bowie, and Rod Stewart? Should I bother to mention more?
Ahhh…..the “Korean side.” It seems that Pawi’s definition of the “Korean side” involves a Korean saying that all foreign influences are bad, that Korea is the greatest country in Asia, that foreign technology is actually pure Korean technology, and that no one should criticize Korea, among others. Now if this “Korean side” is how Korea really is, then we as Koreans are truly fucked.
Just a minute, does this mean Pawi wants a fucked up Korea? Well maybe he’s not Korean, maybe he’s a Japanese right-wing nationalist disguised as a Korean nationalist.
Let’s not forget what pop music is: “pop” doesn’t describe the music itself (which could be rock, R&B, blues-funk, house or whatever). It describes the image, scene, style and concepts associated with the music. Basically, everything about the music but the music. Pop music is, and always has been, music for people who really aren’t into music.
And lest we start throwing stones at Korea for their pop atrocities, let’s remember who opened this Pandora’s box in the first place. Pop music is to proper music what McDonald’s food is to proper food, both in origin and impact.
“And lest we start throwing stones at Korea for their pop atrocities, let’s remember who opened this Pandora’s box in the first place.”
Mozart?
i like female vocalists, US or Korean.
Rollingstone. Guys who have been on heroine and cocaine for decades. Looks like hal-a-buh-ji’s, who dress like non straight men. Their music sucks to my ears.
Kiss. Halloweeners with pot bellies.
Aerosmith. They’re alright.
See, you don’t seem to like any of the Korean music products.
what did you do before mp3s?
I know some of you were there before mp3s.
I mean, what the hell did you listen to on the radio?
the problem is, Slim, you just don’t like dissent.
Just for you, Slim, I wrote in chain.
It’s never done on purpose.
If you want me to write something, sit around, think about it, think about it again, revise it, spell it right,
then, man, that’s not me.
i think it’s easier for you, anyway?
see orange and blue?
skip it.
by the way, Mins0306, I think you are doing a good job.
Just like Robert Koehler.
I’d call you two the top two of the rotation.
i used to think you were just a guy with a lot of knowledge of the ROK military.
#63,
“See, you don’t seem to like any of the Korean music products.
what did you do before mp3s?
I know some of you were there before mp3s.
I mean, what the hell did you listen to on the radio”
Nothing. I listened to my 4000 won cassette tapes of Korean rock bands.
There are a lot of great Korean underground bands, you just have to find them. One of my favourites is Galaxy Express. They are really good. Pop everywhere sucks in my opinion. If you don’t like pop music just don’t listen to it. It’s really quite simple.
I love the hypocrisy. Why is it ok for Koreans (not all I know!) to say things like “go back to your country if you don’t like it?” If a westerner said the same they would be accused of racism. That’s what pisses me off about their anti-US bullshit. They can trash other people, but can’t take the even the slightest bit of criticism. I’d really like to hear a SOUND explaination about why this is.
Oh yeah, Linkin Park was awesome last night. They even liked the “little glow sticks” the teenie boppers had!
Breaktrack, I’ll put it to you like this. Until you can say “Hey, I grew up here, attend school here” and “this country is huge and a melting pot” and “it’s not a peninsula with a largely homogenous population of people” then you’ll be able to draw a meaningful analogy between an expat in Korea being told to fuck off and a Korean immigrant in America being to go back to “China.”
As for this thread, I’ll just write that I agree with aaronm, artsjourneyman, slim, pawi, cm, SomeguyInKorea, davelee, and Granfalooon, for various reasons of course. As bits and pieces of me, they, cumulatively, represent my stance here quite well. ^____^
As –> Like.
So there’s no racism here because of geographic and socio-political factors?
Nope, non sequitir.
My question is unrelated to your rationalization? Breaktrack said it would be racist in the US. You basically cited geographic and isolating social factors as reasons it is not analogous. Not analogous meaning not an apt comparison. Not an apt comparison meaning you think that in the US, racism has none of these excuses. Here, because of the reasons you mentioned, racism is somehow,…warranted?…not racist? You tell me.
Thanks to abcdefg. I now understand that racism doesn’t exist here, but only in other countries. I also now know why people who are “half-bloods” are not discriminated against in Korea. I hope my country can reach this level of understanding and tolerance in regards to mongrels like myself. Maybe Korea could act as a model for my country. Just a pipe dream I guess.
My point is that two very different social and cultural settings justify different interpretations of some behavior, and demand that that behavior be understood and judged in the contexts appropriate to it. If in America, a Korean who is born and grows up in America, is told to fuck off to China, what that behavior might be resourcing from and, more importanly, how and in what way that behavior is going to be understood and judged — or why “racism” might be associated with that behavior or that remark — depends very much on what America is. We don’t and shouldn’t judge that behavior in accordance to what Korea is or judge similar behavior in Korea in accordance to what America is. This is obvious enough, or should be. We apply norms but must do so according to the respective social and historical contexts of each country because the countries are clearly different.
Now, it’s possible to draw this out even further and be logically tedious about it. But I’ll just cut this short and congratulate you two guys (Breaktrack and Maddlew) for putting “words in my mouth.” Why Breaktrack should be writing about half-breeds (are you one?) and why Maddlew should think this issue from Breaktrack’s previous post should extend to the issue of racism in Korea, is anyone’s guess.
you’re always bitching about korea. that’s why you’re just one of them. and really, do you think when these guys refer to korean men as wife beaters, you’re excluded? do you think when these high class guys refer to korean women as whores, your mother is excluded? when these gentlemen paint koreans as lawless and without a moral compass, you think you’re excluded? you better think again, mins. you better think again.
now, let me let you get back to spending your time attacking your own people because us korean folk be can be DAMN sure you ain’t never going to defend koreans from the insults hurled by your friends here on a daily basis.
______
as for cmm, he wrote what he wrote. he wrote it on a recent thread that had to do with white guys and korean women. he said he was often mistaken for a movie star(ha!), and that he took all the pretty korean women leaving the ugly women for us poor korean guys. don’t blame me. he wrote what he wrote, which was this:
‘i’m often mistaken for a movie star so i take all the pretty korean girls leaving the ugly ones for the korean guys.’ cmm’s actual words
that was cut and pasted from a file, btw. i forgot to give it a subject heading. that’s why i can’t tell you which thread it was on.
I find identity politics so adorable…
I come to this site to read about whats new on the peninsula, not to see what I could easily go and read on the notorious Dave’s elscafe.com complainers forum. Lately, it seems the Marmot’s Hole is getting crowded with low quality posts. When I start reading something I can tell within the first few sentences if the Marmot wrote it or not, and I knew immediately the Marmot wouldn’t waste webspace on a disagreement re. the Wonder Girls. I’m sick of hearing foreigners reading too much into things. Who gives a flying toss.
Marmot….please don’t let your site turn into Dave’s ESL Cafe. Please please please.
#68,
The region of Canada where I grew up was no less ‘homogenous’ than Korea. It would certainly be racist to tell that to anyone there.
PS. Korea is not a racially homogeneous as it’s made up to be. Korean ethnic nationalism is a rather novel idea. It’s a natural reaction to colonial Japan’s attempts to assimilate Koreans. The sentiment of national identity intertwined with ethnic identity was reinforced by the writings of Hee Bum Seok, who was inspired by German volkish movement when pushed the concept of ‘Minjok’.
If you dig deep into Korean history, you’ll find that some Korean clans were established by foreigners. One clan was started by a Uighur (’weakyo’ and ‘weakuk’ come from the Chinese pronunciation of ‘Uighur’ because there used to be so many Uighurs in Korea), another by someone who is believed to have been an Arab, and a few by Mongolians, not to mention the ones who were Chinese in origin. There were muslim and mongolian villages located in Korea. You can still see evidence of ancient Korea’s multi-ethnicity in the vast variety of physiognomic traits, and probably the variety of dialects, that exist today in Korea today. But, that’s in the past.
Nowadays, nearly 2% of the Korean population is made up of foreigners. 11% of Koreans marry foreigners and significant number of people born in Korea are multi-ethnic (and I’m sure the numbers will only grow as the Korea continues to gain a greater position on the international scene).
Koreans really need to reconsider what it is to be Korean (besides, the notion that Korea is an homogeneous country has been used long enough by foreigners to show Koreans in a less than favorable way).
I’m just trying to figure out what it was you were trying to drive home. They were questions, not statements.
Actually, it’s not racism. It’s naked, conformist, blind, hate-mongering nationalism. It’s cool. We do a hell of alot of it back in the States where it is truly ridiculous. Just don’t come in here and try to rationalize or disguise it. It is what it is.
My biggest problem with bands like Wondergirls is my daughter, who is six, watches them and now is an aspiring little skankling. Being a father isn’t hard enough.
There’s a reason why they call it listening to music. Can you close your eyes and still find it appealing? If not then it is something else. We need a new definition.
Well, pawi, I criticize the narrow mindness, hypocrisy, corruption, and the stupidity created by the ones in power, the media, and some ordinary Koreans. But I don’t remember attacking the country and the people in general. So, my guess is you’re not reading my posts right and letting your narrow mindness get you carried away.
Now you say us Korean folk, well I’m geateful that I’m not part of your posse, because that’s certainly not the Korea that I want to belong to. And the good news is I’m not alone. Because there are a lot of good Korean folk who have the same views as I do.
#78, hmm, I agree, and I think many Koreans would agree, ignoring their initial knee-jerk reaction. Well, a sign of change is that even the government agrees and at least is trying to get rid of the one blood notion, but it takes time for people to get out long standing habits.
#77, dinkus, Marmot’s has a few authors, and this piece was done not by a foreigner, but apparently a native. Legitimate complaints are a good thing imo, and I think if you stick around, you’ll see Marmot’s has a good share (and some nice pics too).
#60, shut my mouth ’cause I’m getting irrelevant? But mins, don’t you know that irrelevancy and the amount one talks is directly proportional (with talking perhaps being power factored) :D? And you should be nicer to your elders, even if they’re senile… Korean kids these days…crazy young’ins and their wacky ideas…
All teasing aside, if you actually are sincere about considering a suggestion, I’ll make my Christmas Marmot’s Wish to be that you avoid posts on things your crazy deadbeat Korean co-workers or friends or random strangers (etc) say.
The reason? Well, is it that really a surprise that a human (a creature of such infallible intelligence), could say something that makes no sense? Well, maybe SoKo is such a place, I hear they even have superior morals than the already high morals of an average human, but pretty much everyone I’ve met can tell me that they hear random bat dung crazy ideas on a daily basis.
Now, if such a thing is enforced or happens, that’s a different story, but other than that, why would I be interested in something a random punk who I’ve never met/seen or even exists has to say, and including the following general knowledge of why such info is incorrect?
So, what should you post instead you ask? Well, if the only interests you have on a daily basis is what you’re co-workers think, then maybe a recommendation is useless, but, anything else, let’s see…read any news articles that piqued your interest or aroused your anger? How about your opinion on the happenings of your favorite sports team?
I thought your previous piece on questioning the logic of building from ground up that trainer fighter was decently thought out and written, so more of those are always welcome, too.
Anyway, I’m off to bed, I think in my sleepy state my chair rolled over some of my varicose veins…
Good god, you people are still arguing over the Wondergirls? Isn’t anything not controversial in Korea?
#81.
Fair enough. Now if you previously posted a comment like the comment that you just posted, it would have received a better reception. To answer some of your questions, yes, there are things in the news that receive my attention, and I duly post them if the other posters hadn’t already posted it. As a matter of fact 99% of what I post falls into the category. As for my coworkers rants, well I only post those, that like the news, “pique my interest.” That’s what a blog is about.
OK, but since you and aaromn are continually requesting the non-posting of “water cooler talk”, I’ll chew on it. I doubt my coworkers will say anything interesting between now and the end of 2007, but if they do say something that ring bells, well I can’t say that I won’t be tempted.
Finally, some things to keep in mind, first, you and aaronm aren’t the only readers of this blog and I’m not the sole poster. And when I took this job, making sure that all the readers were happy wasn’t part of the job description.
Dream Theater.
#79,
Do what I did, educate your kid musically. My son loves Muddy Waters and Neil Young.
#81,
Yes, and hopefully the next President won’t be quick to use jingoistic xenophobia like Roh.
#84,
The rather famous progressive metal band founded by a Korean American?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Myung
I, for one, like the “water cooler talk.” It’s real people saying real things — much better than what some other bloggers post, i.e. psuedo-intellectual, verbose, overblown pablum.
Thanks Mins, and keep up the good work.
I don’t like Dream Theater but I’ve been listening to Gordion Knot for years. Did not realize Myung had contributed some work for them. (Didn’t know Myung is Korean either…)
Correction:
Gordion -> Gordian
While I’m at it:
sequitir -> sequitur
I don’t find the water cooler talk necessarily boring. The other day one of my kids said the darndest thing that only kids say, and if I had a blog, I would have blogged about it. Your co-worker’s comments were remarkable enough to blog because while people everywhere are at least a little sensitive to foreigners’ criticisms of their country, not many nationalities would get defensive in response to criticism of talentless pop stars.
I do think your strength as a contributor lies in your dual nature as an insider who can step back and view a conversation or situation as a foreigner might. There are a lot of stories that do not break out of the Korean-language media and may be missed by expats who skim and scan Korean-language news sources, so perhaps that could be your niche. I think Koreabeat does something like that - translate Korean internet content into English.
Thanks for sharing with us A Korean perspective. Great minds do NOT all think alike!
#78, Someguy, that’s why you come across chaps like wjk and baduk. They’re likely to be descendents of them.
‘So, my guess is you’re not reading my posts right and letting your narrow mindness get you carried away.’
i can read you as easy as a dime store novel, mins. who you think you’re kidding?
lastly,
‘i’m often mistaken for a movie star so i take all the pretty korean girls leaving the ugly ones for the korean guys.’ cmm’s actual words
ps mins, just look at those who defend you here. interesting, huh?
“weakyo” = 외교? Foreign diplomacy?
“weakuk” - 외국?
These two terms originate not from the Chinese pronunciation of Uighur - 维吾尔, pronounced “way-wur” but from a Chinese character compound 外國, meaning “outside country.” Since the Chinese characters in “Uighur” and “foreign country” are completely different, it is highly unlikely the terms have any common origin.
i think you yourself may know for sure you’re not pure Irish, English, German, French, etc,
but I know for sure both sides are Korean.
In a sense, your point about Korean influx and outflux of foreign names and families is a just a stab for no apparent point.
you MAY accuse of us inbreeding, but I don’t really see the negative effects of it yet, such as in other well-known European clans that have done this, primarily for apparently religious reasons. Or maybe Koreans haven’t been studied for recessive trait diseases as extensively.
Koreans do have higher morals. We have 3 way influx of major religions forming our morals. From India, from China, and the Middle East (no, I wasn’t going to credit Europe for it).
Koreans are more homogeneous than you would like to think. As homogeneous as certain European countries claim to be.
you get an erection out of calling Koreans mutts and release it w/ your unassuming Korean gal, well that’s fine with me.
it’s a free world. Thanks for making Korea free. I do credit western Europe and America for that.
Japan. Hmmm. They get more of a questionable credit. Yeah, they were the post for supplies during the Korean War. Yeah, they were funding Okamoto w/ the so called 2nd chance in life to take advantage of and resurrect yourself. Yeah, they left remnants of their war factory in Korea (which were mostly destroyed and even if used intact w/ no improvements, made South Korea one of the poorest nations in the world even still)
but, their retreat from Manchuria and Korea w/ minimal resistance is what gave way to Soviets spreading the gospel of being poor together in the North (w/ the Red Chinese nailing it down) and the South being saved by Americans.
Sonagi,
You’re right. I must have misread the information I had. It’s hweakyo (회교, 回敎), one of the Korean words for Islam, that supposedly comes form the Chinese word for Uighurs (回紇), not weakyo (외교). or weakuk (외국) . Thenagain, I just found that “紇” is the Chinese word for Uighur and “回” means ‘return’, which is why hweakuk (회국, 回國) means ‘return to home country’, not ‘country of the Uighurs’. This is getting very confusing.
Not exciting…not interesting.
Ho..hum..
Let’s talk again about dick sizes! That is the topic number one at Marmot’s.
“you MAY accuse of us inbreeding, but I don’t really see the negative effects of it yet, such as in other well-known European clans that have done this, primarily for apparently religious reasons. Or maybe Koreans haven’t been studied for recessive trait diseases as extensively.”
No, the lack of widespread genetic disease is a pretty strong argument that Koreans aren’t as homogeneous as they’ve been made to be by late 20th century Korean ethnic nationalists.
Besides, it’s an historical fact that there have been ethnic minorities throughout Korean history.
I think you just don’t like my argument because it someone brings to question your opinion that foreigners have only up to no good in Korea.
“Koreans do have higher morals. We have 3 way influx of major religions forming our morals. From India, from China, and the Middle East (no, I wasn’t going to credit Europe for it).”
Right, and Baptists, Protestants, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses (some of the most common Christian groups in Korea) aren’t from Europe and North America (and, obviously North Americans and European societies didn’t develop in a vacuum, devoid of extrinsic influences, since Christianity is a middle-Eastern thing).
“Koreans are more homogeneous than you would like to think.”
I never claimed Seoul was New York, just that the notion of ‘pure blood’ is illogical and insult to one’s intelligence.
“As homogeneous as certain European countries claim to be.”
Most modern Europeans know better than to make such ridiculous claims.
“you get an erection out of calling Koreans mutts and release it w/ your unassuming Korean gal, well that’s fine with me.”
Saying that those who are of mixed heritage and ancestry are ‘mutts’ is a racist value statement that is fully yours, not mine.
Releasing it with my unassuming Korean gal? You’re vulgar, racist and a misogynist. I hope your mom is monitoring your online activity.