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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;What can they know of England who only England know?&#8217;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: My New Career as a Journalist &#171; The Grand Narrative</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-118992</link>
		<dc:creator>My New Career as a Journalist &#171; The Grand Narrative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-118992</guid>
		<description>[...] I said in the introduction to this post of mine, I recently added a few comments to this post on the Marmot&#8217;s Hole about the identity issues people like him and I have who have [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I said in the introduction to this post of mine, I recently added a few comments to this post on the Marmot&#8217;s Hole about the identity issues people like him and I have who have [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Raising a Baby in Korea: an unexpected issue &#171; The Grand Narrative</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-117717</link>
		<dc:creator>Raising a Baby in Korea: an unexpected issue &#171; The Grand Narrative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-117717</guid>
		<description>[...] hasn&#8217;t improved in a year does take the spring out of one&#8217;s step. Learning that plently of other people in Korea have had no problems getting work they enjoy regardless of their Korean ability doesn&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] hasn&#8217;t improved in a year does take the spring out of one&#8217;s step. Learning that plently of other people in Korea have had no problems getting work they enjoy regardless of their Korean ability doesn&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sanshinseon</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-117118</link>
		<dc:creator>sanshinseon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-117118</guid>
		<description>And i'm another who started here in ESL (never all that good at it), developed a hobby/interest, got serious about my hobby, found a niche and worked hard at it in "free time", then turned my hobby into a great non-ESL career...  having Fun now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And i&#8217;m another who started here in ESL (never all that good at it), developed a hobby/interest, got serious about my hobby, found a niche and worked hard at it in &#8220;free time&#8221;, then turned my hobby into a great non-ESL career&#8230;  having Fun now.</p>
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		<title>By: Baek du boy</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116913</link>
		<dc:creator>Baek du boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116913</guid>
		<description>I taught English for 2-3 years before getting a Masters overseas, returning to do my thesis and study Korean. 

During my thesis I got a great part time job (albeit teaching at a Korean engineering company) for three months. After that I had 6 months of teaching (illegally) at a variety of part time gigs, privates and whatever to make ends meet. These jobs are so fickle, come and go, end without warning, I need 500 words just to get started on the bullshit you have to face..all while studying Korean from 9-1pm everyday and spending more cash on tuition and expenses than what I was earning.

There are plenty of foreigners not working in ESL and I was lucky enough to know a few and managed to get a leg up for an interview into a 1 year entry level position (which did involve some proof reading and abuse of native english skill), I got the job and after learning the business I secured a permanent position - no ESL no proof reading.

The thing is, in Korea you always have teaching as a back up - and that can be a bad thing..and too many foreigners fall in that trap in Korea. Like Australia, US or anywhere, you have to know the right people, have the right skills, and be determined. Someone will see this and give you a chance.

In the corporate world, you will not be competing with other ESL teachers for a job. You will be competing with bilingual Koreans out of Yonsei and Seoul Dae, with other expat workers who have the right experience and education. What value can you add over these people? 

My suggestion:
Get specific - what exactly do you want to do?, get specific knowledge and education, get experience (maybe an internship), get to know some people in the specific field or industry.  

If all else fails....learn the secret handshake!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I taught English for 2-3 years before getting a Masters overseas, returning to do my thesis and study Korean. </p>
<p>During my thesis I got a great part time job (albeit teaching at a Korean engineering company) for three months. After that I had 6 months of teaching (illegally) at a variety of part time gigs, privates and whatever to make ends meet. These jobs are so fickle, come and go, end without warning, I need 500 words just to get started on the bullshit you have to face..all while studying Korean from 9-1pm everyday and spending more cash on tuition and expenses than what I was earning.</p>
<p>There are plenty of foreigners not working in ESL and I was lucky enough to know a few and managed to get a leg up for an interview into a 1 year entry level position (which did involve some proof reading and abuse of native english skill), I got the job and after learning the business I secured a permanent position - no ESL no proof reading.</p>
<p>The thing is, in Korea you always have teaching as a back up - and that can be a bad thing..and too many foreigners fall in that trap in Korea. Like Australia, US or anywhere, you have to know the right people, have the right skills, and be determined. Someone will see this and give you a chance.</p>
<p>In the corporate world, you will not be competing with other ESL teachers for a job. You will be competing with bilingual Koreans out of Yonsei and Seoul Dae, with other expat workers who have the right experience and education. What value can you add over these people? </p>
<p>My suggestion:<br />
Get specific - what exactly do you want to do?, get specific knowledge and education, get experience (maybe an internship), get to know some people in the specific field or industry.  </p>
<p>If all else fails&#8230;.learn the secret handshake!</p>
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		<title>By: MigukNamja</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116863</link>
		<dc:creator>MigukNamja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116863</guid>
		<description>Re #44:

James, if this is the &lt;b&gt;nail&lt;/b&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;"...in 7 years here I’ve met precisely ONE person, a Gyopo, who didn’t have a job teaching English here."&lt;/i&gt;

...then this is the &lt;b&gt;hammer&lt;/b&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;"I know, I need to move to Seoul"&lt;/i&gt;

In Seoul, you'll find plenty of non-ESL expats, myself and my wife included. You may not meet them your first week here, but if you ask around, you'll find 'em.

Besides being probably a damned good English Teacher, what are your other professional skills, whether by training or practice ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #44:</p>
<p>James, if this is the <b>nail</b>:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;in 7 years here I’ve met precisely ONE person, a Gyopo, who didn’t have a job teaching English here.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>&#8230;then this is the <b>hammer</b>:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I know, I need to move to Seoul&#8221;</i></p>
<p>In Seoul, you&#8217;ll find plenty of non-ESL expats, myself and my wife included. You may not meet them your first week here, but if you ask around, you&#8217;ll find &#8216;em.</p>
<p>Besides being probably a damned good English Teacher, what are your other professional skills, whether by training or practice ?</p>
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		<title>By: James Turnbull</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116848</link>
		<dc:creator>James Turnbull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116848</guid>
		<description>dogbertt, I also said that people with jobs outside of ESL are like feminine lesbians to me...subtle code for "don't take this comment too seriously."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dogbertt, I also said that people with jobs outside of ESL are like feminine lesbians to me&#8230;subtle code for &#8220;don&#8217;t take this comment too seriously.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: dda</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116841</link>
		<dc:creator>dda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116841</guid>
		<description>Never had an ESL job -- then again English is not my native language anyway :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never had an ESL job &#8212; then again English is not my native language anyway <img src='http://www.rjkoehler.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: dogbertt</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116831</link>
		<dc:creator>dogbertt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116831</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;it’s getting to the stage where I think anyone claiming to have a non-ESL job here is part of some big conspiracy to keep my hopes alive…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I have a non-ESL job, Brendon Carr has a non-ESL job; Sperwer has a non-ESL job; Robert Koehler has a non-ESL job... I'm sure there are others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>it’s getting to the stage where I think anyone claiming to have a non-ESL job here is part of some big conspiracy to keep my hopes alive…</p></blockquote>
<p>I have a non-ESL job, Brendon Carr has a non-ESL job; Sperwer has a non-ESL job; Robert Koehler has a non-ESL job&#8230; I&#8217;m sure there are others.</p>
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		<title>By: James Turnbull</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116824</link>
		<dc:creator>James Turnbull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116824</guid>
		<description>Sorry in advance for the errors, I'm typing this on the ancient computer we have at work.

"#27, you are not trying hard enough. I know many foreigners in Korea working for Korean and foreign companies. Some have great deals and some might start off getting paid less than teachers and working more… but in the long run much more opportunities.
 
Myself, I took a 9-6pm (sometimes 7 or 8pm) job for a year with a finance company at 2 mill a month. Now I’m enjoying much better pay, overseas travel and future opportunities in HK, Tokyo, Australia and Europe"

Baek Du Boy (#33), thanks for the advice, but in all seriousness, Westerners in Korea who are not ESL teachers are like...ahem...feminine lesbians as fare as I'm concerned.

I know they EXIST, I've read about them, seen them in videos, and hell, am reading a blog written by one, but like all the lesbians I ever knew back in New Zealand, some of who were friends but who were all so uniformly butch that they could probably have beaten the crap out of me had they so desired, in 7 years here I've met precisely ONE person, a Gyopo, who didn't have a job teaching English here.

Seriously, after banging my head against a brick wall trying for 5 years or so to get a non-ESL job here, I feel like somehow, somewhere there's this secret cabal of non-ESLers out there, with secret handshakes and party cells and very stringent rules for admitting new members. I don't know what I've been doing wrong, maybe I'm just butt ugly or something, but it's getting to the stage where I think anyone claiming to have a non-ESL job here is part of some big conspiracy to keep my hopes alive...and then relish in them being crushed so mercilessly. I don't know, maybe they survive by feeding on my life force or something.

I know, I need to move to Seoul, and am quite happy...oops, I mean prepared...to take a pay cut down to 2.0 million or so but again, with a baby daughter and non-working wife in tow, then I need a job to go to before I do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry in advance for the errors, I&#8217;m typing this on the ancient computer we have at work.</p>
<p>&#8220;#27, you are not trying hard enough. I know many foreigners in Korea working for Korean and foreign companies. Some have great deals and some might start off getting paid less than teachers and working more… but in the long run much more opportunities.</p>
<p>Myself, I took a 9-6pm (sometimes 7 or 8pm) job for a year with a finance company at 2 mill a month. Now I’m enjoying much better pay, overseas travel and future opportunities in HK, Tokyo, Australia and Europe&#8221;</p>
<p>Baek Du Boy (#33), thanks for the advice, but in all seriousness, Westerners in Korea who are not ESL teachers are like&#8230;ahem&#8230;feminine lesbians as fare as I&#8217;m concerned.</p>
<p>I know they EXIST, I&#8217;ve read about them, seen them in videos, and hell, am reading a blog written by one, but like all the lesbians I ever knew back in New Zealand, some of who were friends but who were all so uniformly butch that they could probably have beaten the crap out of me had they so desired, in 7 years here I&#8217;ve met precisely ONE person, a Gyopo, who didn&#8217;t have a job teaching English here.</p>
<p>Seriously, after banging my head against a brick wall trying for 5 years or so to get a non-ESL job here, I feel like somehow, somewhere there&#8217;s this secret cabal of non-ESLers out there, with secret handshakes and party cells and very stringent rules for admitting new members. I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;ve been doing wrong, maybe I&#8217;m just butt ugly or something, but it&#8217;s getting to the stage where I think anyone claiming to have a non-ESL job here is part of some big conspiracy to keep my hopes alive&#8230;and then relish in them being crushed so mercilessly. I don&#8217;t know, maybe they survive by feeding on my life force or something.</p>
<p>I know, I need to move to Seoul, and am quite happy&#8230;oops, I mean prepared&#8230;to take a pay cut down to 2.0 million or so but again, with a baby daughter and non-working wife in tow, then I need a job to go to before I do that.</p>
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		<title>By: R. Elgin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116785</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Elgin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 03:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/11/07/what-can-they-know-of-england-who-only-england-know/#comment-116785</guid>
		<description>As per this last comment, as I understand it, that is a tremendous problem for foreigners here, having an alleged "international" school that has a majority of Korean kids who are not fluent in English, resulting in slowing down or killing a class.  The price for this dubious education is amazing as well!  No wonder many Korean parents send their kids abroad but now, expatriates should send their kids back as well!

This alone may end up driving many successful expatriates out of Korea in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As per this last comment, as I understand it, that is a tremendous problem for foreigners here, having an alleged &#8220;international&#8221; school that has a majority of Korean kids who are not fluent in English, resulting in slowing down or killing a class.  The price for this dubious education is amazing as well!  No wonder many Korean parents send their kids abroad but now, expatriates should send their kids back as well!</p>
<p>This alone may end up driving many successful expatriates out of Korea in the long run.</p>
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