I literally spit cranberry juice all over my monitor when I saw this photo:
Taken from here.
You’ll no doubt recognize some of this cast of characters, including DLP lawmaker (and Marmot’s Hole favorite) Noh Hoe-chan and the grim-faced dude, second from the left, that you see at just about every anti-American protest.
This was following a press conference, given by such civic groups as the Korean Confederation of Trade Unions (!) and Korean Government Employees’ Union, near the Burmese embassy in Hannam-dong calling for an end to repression in Burma and the stepping down of Burma’s ruling junta.
Meanwhile, today, a long list of civic groups released a statement condemning the ongoing repression in Burma and, while they were at it, slamming Seoul for its silence. Or in their words:
We cannot help but express serious concern about the Korean government, which has sought only economic trade with Burma while ignoring the Burmese people’s demands for democratization. Korea has sold weapons to Burma and participated in projects to develop its natural resources. We hope that the Korean government clearly understands that for it to show a lukewarm attitude to the violent repression of the Burmese people’s demands for democratization not only makes Korea an international laughingstock, but can also make it the accomplice of the Burmese junta, which could be called an inhumane criminal gang.
If you read Korean, read the whole thing, including the note how one out of three Burmese children are suffering from malnutrition. The list of civic groups that signed is at the bottom, including the chairwoman of the Korean Teachers & Educational Workers Union (KTU).
I’ll let you try to wrap your head around this. I sure as hell can’t.
UPDATE: OK, now I’ve seen it all.
As Andy Jackson pointed out, the man on the far left — both physically in this case and politically — is Rep. Im Jong-in, Andy’s rep in Ansan. Rep Im, along with nine other lawmakers, introduced a parliamentary resolution yesterday supporting the democratization of Burma. The resolution calls for four measures:
- It call on the Burmese junta to immediately end its repression of peaceful demonstrations and to free its prisoners;
- It calls on the junta to free all political prisoners, including Aung San Suu Kyi, and guarantee freedom of political activity;
- It calls on the Korean government to support the Burmese democratization movement and issue a statement of protest against the junta’s blood repression of demostrationsl
- It calls on the Korean government and the international community to engage in collective action to force Burma’s ruling junta down from power and establish a democratic government (!)
Im and others cited four reasons:
- The people of Burma want the illegitimate Burmese junta to step down and establish a democratic government. The people of Burma have fought over 40 years against the Burmese military government;
- On a humanitarian level, Korea can’t sit back and watch the junta’s bloody repression of Burma’s pro-democracy movement. They note that 3,000 died during the 1988 pro-democracy movement in Burma, and that over 20 have died, 200 injured and 4,000 arrested in this latest repression;
- (my personal favorite) Only if the corrupt ruling junta of Burma is forced from power can the poverty of the Burmese people be resolved. It notes that 90% of Burmese live on a dollar a day, but Burma’s corrupt military elites ignore the suffering of the masses and live fat on the monopolized profits earned from developing the country’s natural resources;
- It’s love for your fellow man for Koreans that went through the democratization process first to show solidarity with the Burmese democratization movement. Koreans forced from power through a general uprising the military regime that took power after the Gwangju Massacre. It’s the duty of a democratic citizen with a universal love for his fellow man to support and show solidarity with the Burmese democratization movement, which has been fighting against military dictatorship for over 40 years.
Im and others concluded by saying “The government is taking a rather hazy position for the small economic interest of resource development… The prestige and image of Korea, Asia’s greatest democracy, will plummet.”
This is all off Im’s homepage, mind you.
Im’s views about the human rights situation just across the DMZ, however, differ slightly in a number of respects.
From a parliamentary audit of the National Human Rights Committee of Korea in November of last year:
How can the National Human Rights Committee, which cannot do its job properly regarding human rights in South Korea, cry about human rights in North Korea?
In case you were wondering, the “human rights issue” in South Korea that Im was bitching about at the time was the expulsion of South Korean farmers from land granted to the US military for base expansion in Pyeongtaek.
The activities of the National Human Rights Commission must be based in the National Human Rights Commission Law, but there’s no basis (in the law) for it to express a position on North Korean human rights, no?… The people raising their voice about North Korean human rights have been silent about the human rights violations that have occurred in South Korea, where they live.
He also said calls for the National Human Rights Committee to express a position on North Korean human rights were “based on political calculations.”
Also from the same audit, a bit more bluntly:
Do North Koreans get social security? Do they get voting rights? The National Human Rights Commission doesn’t have to do anything regarding North Korean human rights.
No “universal love for your fellow man as a democratic citizen” there.
Then there’s this, also from his homepage (via self-described centrist Internet newspaper Up Korea)
Meanwhile, in a post on his homepage, Rep, Im Jong-in of the Uri Party, who sits on the National Assembly’s Committee for Unification, Foreign Affairs and Trade, said about the GNP’s draft resolution calling for support of the UN resolution on North Korean human rights, “It’s not yet time… Through humanitarian aid, we must first protect the most basic human right, which is for North Koreans not to starve and wear rags.” In particular, Im said, “At this juncture, it would not help resolve the nuclear issue or develop intra-Korean relations for the South Korean government to address the North Korean human rights issue head on… The quickest way to improve North Korean human rights is to vitalize North-South Korean economic cooperation.”
Please compare with reason No. 3 cited above for Im’s resolution on Burma.
69 Comments
Cranberry juice is available in Korea? And you drink it? You don’t have a UTI, do you?
I just spat a mouthful of Martins Andino (the best three dollar bottle of wine in Korea, available at E-Mart) all over my monitor reading this post of yours.
Even half-drunk, I can’t wrap my head around it. Over the years, I’ve come to expect stupidity and hypocrisy from the Left, but never at this level!
I’m just glad the priest wasn’t there.
It saddens me to say that I am not the least bit surprised about this.
I find it hard to wrap my head around the fact that so many posters and commenters on this blog rail about how incompetent Roh is and how hypocritical the “left” is, while nary a word of reproach about the U.S. administration, who is bosom buddies with scum (the House of Saud being one example) and has murdered about 1,000,000 Iraqis and countless Afghanis.
Yes, S.L.O.R.C is evil and so’s KJI, but how about looking in the mirror and trying for some regime change in your own country? And before neo cons like snow start sniveling about liberal blah blah blah, I suggest he and people like him read that part of the gospels about he without sin casting the first stone. That do unto others part is pretty good too.
One concrete thing you can do if you’re American is vote Ron Paul, the only decent, uncorrupted man still left in the cesspool that is U.S. politics. And that includes the dems times two.
I see no problem with them protesting the treatment of people in Burma, but they could at least make mention of the treatment of their ‘brothers’ up North, who have just expanded ties to the Burmese junta. Oh wait, aren’t those ‘civic groups’ FUNDED by the north?
elvis beat me to it.
‘SCREW SAUDI ARABIA, ATTACK IRAQ!’
“It saddens me to say that I am not the least bit surprised about this.”
The only thing that surprises me is that these guys don’t seem to have drawn a direct link with tyranny in Burma to Korean prostitutes in Songtan and the opening of Korea’s market to American rice and beef!
On one hand, it is nice to see people speaking out against the regime in Burma. On the other hand, whenever this group of characters show up on the scene, you realize that your demonstration has been hijacked.
I can only wonder why these people decided to get involved in this issue since they are notorious for pro-North and ultra-nationalist rhetoric.
I note that they accuse the Korean Government of aiding the junta in Burma and that is interesting in that is an attack upon government in South Korea. No mention is made of North Korea’s ties to the generals in Burma as well.
Looking past Robert’s described fruit juice theatrics, his point is totally on target. I often find this double standard with some of the members of my Korean Quaker group that only Quaker silence prevents me from screaming at the hypocrisy of clucking tongues at others while turning a blind eye to some of the world’s worst human rights outrages in one’s own backyard.
The sorry truth is so many of those involved in Korean human rights are quick to take the sanctimonious position for standing up for Burmese, Palestinian, etc. human rights, but these same, “concerned” people will not make a peep to condemn the North out of anxiety of offending Pyongyang and thereby “endanger peaceful unification” – albeit at the suffering of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, in concentration camps, etc.
This kind of tea cup liberalism betrays a concern for personal/group politics first and human rights second. Yes, they can rationalize their long-term M.O. as they may, but the facts as manifested by years of strange and, at times, silly demonstrations reveal a shallowness of purpose and a cynicism of intent.
these people and groups and anyone who listens or follows them are the scum of the earth
they are the brown splatter stains on my toilet seat!
they are the sidewalk scum on my shoes after trolling up hooker hill!
they are actually lower than this but i cant think of anymore analogies!!
elvislovechild,
I think the reason “nary a word of reproach about the U.S. administration” is found on this ‘blog is because it focuses on Korea, but I agree with you. Pay a visit to my ‘blog, and you’ll find plenty of reproach for the Bush regime and plenty of support for Dr. Ron Paul.
BTW, the guy on the far left of the picture is Im Jong-in, who represents the district where I live.
Fortunately, I only have to endure a few more months until his (former) Uri butt gets voted out.
Oh my, it is Im Jong-in! That would be the Rep. Im Jong-in who said during a parliamentary audit of the National Human Rights Committee of Korea last November:
http://www.pressian.com/script.....1119170458
In this case, he was referring in particular to the expansion of the US base in Pyeongtaek.
He also said during said audit:
He also said calls for the National Human Rights Committee to express a position on North Korean human rights were “based on political calculations.”
http://www.pressian.com/script.....1031195320
He also said, “Do North Koreans get social security? Do they get voting rights? The National Human Rights Commission doesn’t have to do anything regarding North Korean human rights.”
http://www.prometheus.co.kr/ar.....21900.html
Oh, and here’s more Im Jong-in goodness, this time from his personal homepage (via Up Korea, from November 2005):
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=102
Someone else already said it better than me:
I am in favor of overthrowing the president every four years, the Senate every six, and the House every two. So are most Americans. Doing it on a rotating schedule helps avoid bloody civil war, pogroms, military juntas, mass executions, and all the other inconveniences that commonly accompany the overthrow of a government. This has worked out so well that many other nations are now doing the same thing.
We plan to overthrow our President, and a fair number of Congressmen and Senators, in a little over a year from now. Won’t you join us?
“And before neo cons like snow start sniveling about liberal blah blah blah, I suggest he and people like him read that part of the gospels about he without sin casting the first stone.”
Yes, I guess you’re right elvislovechild, as a Canadian I will focus first and foremost on the sins of that bastion of tyranny, Canada and my fellow evil Canadians, especially those dreaded neo-cons.
The Burma issue clearly shows the Korean left’s hypocrisy regarding human rights and democracy — no doubt about it. So why the hypocrisy? Apparently, they are motivated by nationalism and human rights, but if forced to choose — they’ll go with nationalism.
I suppose the emphasis on nationalism is a legacy from the formation of the Korean left in the colonial period — fighting for independence from Japan and Japanese sympathizers on the right, and then against US domination and US clients like Rhee. But, it’s out of place in modern Korea, whose national sovereignty seems quite secure. Seems that there’s a disconnect with the actual needs of the modern Korean.
Although I have done nothing to fight the evil Busholini Administration, and am thus unqualified to comment on this topic according to one commenter, I will risk stating my opinion anyway. I think this goes beyond the reaction to Burma vs. Nork issue.
Here we have a head of state visiting a country that still incarcerates up to 560 prisoners of war and 480 kidnap victims (depending on who has been offed to date) of his own nation who, between fawning smiles and supplicatory handshakes, speaks nary a word about these poor bastards. We wouldn’t want to upset the kibun, would we? Without the Japanese standing up for their kidnap victims there’d be nobody with any sac in this neighborhood.
It would have been great if some people who care about human rights abuses wherever they occur had caught wind of the time and location of this march and then co-opted it.
“Great, now that we are all here we can also talk about human rights abuses in North Korea…”
*watch the politicos quietly slink away stage left.*
I guess every country needs their Al Sharptons.
Hey, they’re doing a lot for human rights in North Korea — the banner they’re holding was made in Kaesong.
elvislovechild, pawi, what exactly does the topic at hand have to do with the U.S? Why does any criticism of anything always have to reference itself to America to be legitimate? Short answer: It doesn’t. Ignoratio elenchi. Try sticking to the topic at hand.
DPRK government apologists tend to use the same type of arguments whenever the matter of North Korean human rights are raised. Who can forget Mr Ryu Sang-min, the head of Chonnam National University student union?
Interviewer:
What do you think about the serious breaches of human rights in North Korea?
Mr Ryu Sang-min:
I can’t understand the talk about North Korean human rights problems. USA’s breaches of human rights are more serious. How many people in the big land mass of USA are able to live and hold up human rights? There are several North Korean human rights organizations in our country as well, but the violations of human rights in South Korea are also very severe. The Southern part is no different in regard to human rights.
Sound familiar? It’s also Rep. Im Jong-in’s favorite go-to line. Fact that it’s a logical fallacy isn’t surprising: he has nothing else to work with.
I’ll also second Wedge’s comments. Japan is the only country in the region doing the right thing by the North Korean and Burmese people, notwithstanding what they did to said countries 50 years ago.
Im and pals fear that if the government doesn’t take a harder line on Burma “…the prestige and image of Korea, Asia’s greatest democracy, will plummet..” Asia’s greatest democracy? Elephant in the room anyone? Fact is, South Korea will remain far behind Japan on the yardstick of responsible democracies so long as it keeps ignoring the plight of its brothers north of the DMZ.
Hoju, the point of this thread is the hyprocrisy of the Korean left in condemning Burmese gov’t oppression but remaining silent on North korea’s. So I’m drawing a direct analogy with what the neo con right does.
Im Jong In is a clueless dullard indeed. Someone please mail this man a box of dung to play with in his old age.
elvis, sadly it appears that Bush did not start supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Was Clinton not President before Bush? Bush maintained ties with Saudi. Your rant about the Conservs ignoring human rights there is in the grand scheme of things quite absurd. US puts pressure on Saudi, Pakistan, and even China to give enough human rights while maintaning their order and legtimacy and preventing civil war within their own nations. You will quite honestly never see them or rarely see them pull a Burma or a Kwangju under US watch. If they pull one, there’s always a US warning of some sort.
the left in either Korea or America is absurd. You know, I’ve never heard of Cliton’s ass lickers complaining about political or human rights issues in Vietnam. I’ve never heard of Clinton’s ass lickers complaining of the way Clinton handled North Korea. Or Albright. I’ve never heard of how Clinton’s handling of the Middle East led to the USS Cole getting bombed by an encroaching ship, how an American bases in Saudi and Africa were attacked, and such. I’m sure I’ll never hear about human rights issues in Iraq after a Hill Clinton led surrender from Iraq and massive uncontrolled, unrestrained civil war and proxy war between Syria and Iran.
your whole thing is absurd, elvis.
let me draw parallels between US libs and ROK libs.
1. free them in Guantanemo. US. Free them in Burma. ROK.
2. Teacher’s Unions. US and ROK. Both very liberal and self serving. They’ll stop teaching so they can get a raise.
3.
this is apparently true in the big picture, and it is mainly because of commy China which seeks to conquer North Korea for its location and to deplete it of natural resources.
US backing Saudi Arabia with military and political aid in exchange for energy security is a geopolitical transaction that dates back to FDR.
Robert, thanks for yet another awesome post that reminds me once again that you are the unrivaled KING of blogging.
“let me draw parallels between US libs and ROK libs.
1. free them in Guantanemo. US. Free them in Burma. ROK.
2. Teacher’s Unions. US and ROK. Both very liberal and self serving. They’ll stop teaching so they can get a raise.”
What parallels?
1. Some Americans - not only liberals, but other Americans who care about human rights, international reputation, etc - are concerned about detention centers operated by their country in Cuba. It is a rather major issue in and outside the United States, not to mention an issue directly related to the country. Aside from one protest in the last couple of days, the cause of Burma isn’t exactly at the top of Korean liberals’ agenda (assuming all Korean liberals share one particular agenda).
2. When was the last time Korean teachers went on strike to get a raise? I can’t remember any teachers’ strike related to salary - or, come to think of it, any significant teachers’ strike at all - in the eleven years I’ve been here. Not one. Don’t know what the stats might be throughout the United States, but I don’t get the impression that teachers are as enthusiastic about striking (not that they ever were all that happy about the prospect) as they may have been in the past.
I would argue, that in comparing teachers and their unions in each country, there are as many differences as similarities. As a rule, American teachers unions aren’t fervently nationalistic like some of the Korean ones. Do American teachers unions threaten to strike - like Korean ones sometimes do - in sympathy with farmers? I don’t think so. Do American teachers unions play a central role in protesting free trade agreements and neighboring countries’ curricula and textbooks? I don’t think so. Are American teachers national civil servants who can walk off the job en masse from Portland, ME to San Diego, CA? I don’t think so.
It is just as hard to draw parallels between Korean and American liberals - assuming they are so easy to generalize to begin with - as it would be to compare conservatives in each country. It wouldn’t be fair to them either.
The king of blogging I’m not, but as always, your encouragement is greatly appreciated, Curzon.
Mr. Globalvillageidiot,
is it still not true that teacher’s unions in Korea and US are still bleed to the core, die hard, never quit, 1,2,3,4, we don’t want this fucking war, LIBERALS?
Mind you, sir, Mr, that US teachers are doing a hell of a job, taking class time to stop teaching Reading, Writing, and Arithmatic, and using CLASSTIME to “educate” children about “Bush lies, who dies”.
They give assignments and writing exercises on why it’s wrong that the US is there, and give pretty stars and good marks on papers that come up with a chain of $-OIL-Neo Cons-conspiracy.
Parallel with Korea.
torture was torture when the Cold War was on. Torture was torture when World War I and II were being waged. Torture was torture then.
What’s going on in Guantanamo is NOT torture.
Don’t try to even compare.
And if gaining information from these people, who are given prayer times, and Qurans to read, and FOOD given,…to people who were captured on the combat field, mind you, …AND this results in preventing terror in America and leads to stopping terror before it starts…SO BE IT.
Excellent job, Mr. Bush.
And, I believe you when you say so.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200....._terrorism
#30 You can generalize about the different teaching unions and how they operate in each country, but in this case you are wrong more than you are right. (See #28.) Lots of teachers in the United States are encouraging students to draw their own conclusions about events in Iraq. (As they should!) Others, whether they support the actual war or not, encourage students to write soldiers letters supporting them. Can you prove that students’ learning is suffering because of time and effort spent teaching them to oppose the war? I doubt it.
#31 It isn’t only liberals who care about the curtailment of habeas corpus. A lot of people on sides of the political spectrum worry about the curtailment of their rights and freedoms.
And here’s the photo to prove it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....quincy.jpg
It was the British, however, that were the first Western power to get in bed with the House of Saud — here’s a man after your own heart, Curzon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....Shakespear
The oil concessions to America were actually arranged by the Saud family’s British adviser, John Philby (father of Soviet spy Kim Philby):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Philby
Fascinating stuff, really.
#31: “What’s going on in Guantanamo is NOT torture”
ths stupidity of this statement is beyond belief. it boggles the mind, really…
regardless of how you look at, regardless of whether you support the US govt’s current pre-emptiveness toward all issues–and regardless of whether or not you agree with this policy–and regardless of how the bush administration and other idiots try to label or justify it, a lot of, if not most of, what is going on in guantanamo IS torture.
you can try to tell yourself that gitmo is not home to torture, and you can believe it to the point of being able to sleep better at night, but you would be wrong.
torture is torture.
wjk: What’s going on in Guantanamo is NOT torture.
What do you call five years of solitary confinement without legal recourse then? Solitary can turn a man into an emotional vegetable in weeks, let alone years.
WHat’s going on in Guantanamo is one of the worst violations of elementary principles of humanitarian law since WW2. Winston Churchill condemned the use of imprisoning people without charge as one of the most odious of crimes, fit only for the nazis and comunist societies. That was during a WW2, when britains very existence was threatened. And here we are today, with idiots like you thinking its ok to do this stuff, not realizing that you’re destroying the image of america in the eyes of the entire world.
Moreover, the fact that terrorists saw people’s heads off, or that gulags elsewhere are worse, does not give the U.S a carry out its own torture.
sorry dissidentdave, didn’t see your post.
“not realizing that you’re destroying the image of america in the eyes of the entire world”
The fact is, it almost doesn’t matter what the US does, nice or nasty. People the world over will hate America no matter who is in power or what they do.
#36
hoju-man, no worries. it needed to be repeated, anyway.
oh, and, sorry, mate, oz is going down later tonight to jonny w. and the rest of the reigning world champs.
okay, so it’s wishful thinking…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7029308.stm
why is Saudi Arabia doing this?
Answer is US pressure.
Hoju, would you rather be in a Soviet POW camp or a Chinese one?
Would you rather choose the one for political prisoners?
Everything you say about Guantanamo is conjecture. Admit that.
after WW2, who treated the enemy POWs better? Russia? Or US?
As I recall, there was a desparate attempt to be imprisoned in US hands.
Asia’s greatest democracy? That’s rich.
I’d think it would be the one mature enough to NOT have its citizens setting them on fire in protest of neighbors…I guess that narrows it down to Japan and Taiwan.
It looks like the Korean leftists are bored. Their favorite issues, USFK and the FTA are old news, which leaves them with two current and somewhat hot issues to go after. The foreigners teaching English here and Myanmar. Of course, going around with banners saying “English Teachers, Don’t Do Drugs” or “Don’t Sleep with Korean Women” would most probably result in them being laughed at. So they probably decided to go after something that would look a little bit more serious. Not that I believe that they aren’t making a big fool out of themselves already.
#39
W, what the hell are you talking about?
1) The article on Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with your stupid comment, and the subsequent retorts, about Gitmo’s not being the site of torture.
2) “Hoju, would you rather be in a Soviet POW camp or a Chinese one?”
Again, what’s your point? Torture is torture, whether it be in a Chinese POW camp, a Soviet POW camp, or Gitmo’s Detention camp (or however the hell it’s innocuously trying to be labelled these days). I imagine that Hoju would rather NOT be in a POW camp ANYWHERE in the world.
3) “Everything you say about Gitmo is conjecture. Admit that.”
Dubya, how old are you? Five? The torture going on at Gitmo is conjecture in the same way that the Mets’ giving away a 7-game lead with 17 games to play isn’t one of the biggest choke jobs in MLB history.
4) “after WW2, who treated the enemy POWs better? Russia? Or US? As I recall, there was a desparate attempt to be imprisoned in US hands”
Again, what the hell does this have to do with anything? Are you trying to tell us that because enemy POWs allegedly wanted to be prisoners at the hands of the US rather than at the hands of the Soviets (that’s conjecture, and you know it. Come on, admit that), the illegally-held denizens at Gitmo these days are sleeping on feather mattresses and eating chocolate mints every morning? Are you insinuating that Guantanamo is really a Ritz-Carlton by another name? Do you really believe there are thousands of other anti-US rebels the world over hoping to be detained at Gitmo because they know they’ll be treated well and won’t be tortured?
If that is your thought, I’ll happily foot the bill for you, disguised as an Islamic radical, to stay at Gitmo for one month. Then, when you come back to the Marmot less 25 kilos and a finger/toe or three, but with more bruises and broken bones than there are Asian countries, you can delight us with your tales of relaxation at the hands of Ritz-Gitmo’s award-winning, five-star concierge, room service, workout facilities, and massage treatments.
dissidentDave, where are you getting your info on Gitmo?
Tv news, newspapers, right?
Last I checked, what really goes on there is classified military information, and the President has said in easy to understand words, that the US does not torture.
What more do you need?
You’re basing this purely on liberal conjecture.
Gitmo is definately not Yodok. Alright?
Gitmo is not a Siberian labor camp, okay?
It’s pretty much a fact that German and Japanese pawns and generals headed wherever US troops were to surrender, versus the Red Army side. That’s as much a fact as the fact that the Mets blew the lead in historical proportions and the Yankees blew a ALCS 3-0 lead to the Boston Red Sox, allowing them to break the Bambino’s curse. I was gonna wait a little until it really happenned, but…what d’ya know? The Yankees are gonna lose to the Tribe and they’ll once again try to cut ties with Torre.
what are you, anyway? Who sports an image of Che and Castro?
Che was simply and purely an idiot.
That’s all I’ve got to say about him.
Castro, Castro used the people for his own coronation.
I’ve heard the gamut of claims regarding Gitmo. Would be nice to see some links to evidence of torture (not saying there isn’t any, but would like to take a look).
Hoju, would you rather be in a Soviet POW camp or a Chinese one?
Gitmo is definately not Yodok. Alright?
tsk tsk, wjk, you really need to learn how to argue a case without resorting to tu quo que statements. They make you look like a 5-year old. I actually anticipated you would say something along those lines, which is why I wrote at 35:
Moreover, the fact that terrorists saw people’s heads off, or that gulags elsewhere are worse, does not give the U.S a carry out its own torture.
I also pointed out a similar argument at 21, regarding NK human rights being refernced against the US.
In simple terms, its not ok to do something wrong because someone, somewhere else is doing something worse. Get it?
As for questions about whether torture is taking place or not - the evidence is overwhelming. There have been official government inquiries which found evidence of severe torture and FBI agents have sworn to have witnessed it.
The fact of sustained solitary confinement (regarded by many, justifiably, as torture) and the lack of detainee rights is not contested or disputed. (except by the Supreme Court of America, which Bush has ignored - effectively rendering the military superior to civil power).
It boggles the mind that people like you think this is ok.
Do yourself a favor and read this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/.....-coop.html
I think the best way to finish the GITMO debate would be to present the proof article on here. I know there are couple out there, but I’m just too lazy and drunk right now to find them and link them. Speaking of… Happy Octoberfest!!! ASU might not be the best party school anymore, but it’s definitely up there.
hoju, it’s still purely conjecture. Look, there is NO proof.
US has historically been respectful of human rights, even to the worst people who deserve shit.
Don’t pull that they do it, so it’s okay that we do it logic to me.
You take an honest look at yourself and you’ll see that you guys do that too, depending on the subject.
and I deny the fact that I’m pulling the they do it, so we can do it, too, train of thought.
Let’s see. Marijuana? They do it in Netherlands, they do it in Canada, so let’s do it in Korea.
How about that one?
In that case, you guys don’t use your own rules about, doesn’t mean it’s okay because they do it, we can do it, blah, blah, blah.
Your entire premise is based on a conjecture. No proof.
And I have the principle to say that even if there is interrogation, which I deny is torture, it is justified.
They brought on a new form of warfare, and so far Bush has short circuited every major attempt to cause havoc in the US. Compare that to Europe. They’ve had several incidents already. London subway. Spanish commuter train. History will remember George W. Bush.
I guess you have a short memory of what happenned to hoju people in Bali.
and you choose to ignore that fact that many of these terror operations were defused by gaining info from gitmo residents.
there is no proof.
there is good reason to hold them there.
you guys are amazing AMAZING hyporcrites.
Don’t pay the terrorists, Korea, those Taliban are gonna kill more and kidnap more !
Really!
How about, Don’t release the terrorists, USA, those terrorists are gonna kill more and kidnap more !
But no !
When Bush is in charge, the rules are different.
It becomes, release these innocent lambs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06.....nted=print
I refuse to further comment on this ridiculous charge that Gitmo is the worst torture chamber ever cooked up by man’s mind.
Have a good one.
Why is Oktoberfest going on in a US region where they are <0.01% German hertiage?
Same reason why they celebrate Saint Patrick’s day in Los Angeles.
How many years can a mountain exist
Before it’s washed to the sea?
Yes’n’ how many years can some people exist
Before they’re allowed to be free?
Yes’n’ how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn’t see?
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes’n’ how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, ‘n’ how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answers, my friends, are still nowhere in sight…
maybe getting farther away.
“Let’s see. Marijuana? They do it in Netherlands, they do it in Canada, so let’s do it in Korea.”
My god, I actually find myself agreeing with wjk! Luckily he was attempting to be ironic or something, or I’d go shoot myself in the head.
I agree that holding the prisoners without informing them of the charges or the length of time is a bad practice (Torture? I think of torture as what you see on ‘24′ such as electrodes, pliers, knives, etc.). I asked for evidence of torture, not just commentary saying there’s tons of evidence out there. Again, links please?
One link has already been provided (see post #45), but go to http://web.amnesty.org/pages/g.....sheets-eng and check out all you need to know about what’s going on at Gitmo (you will to be able to read .pdf files to read these fact sheets).
I realise that I can show you the Amnesty link and Hoju can show you the CS Monitor link and more links can be provided that also show the veracity of these claims of torture; however, if you truly believe Honest Dick Cheney when he says that the prisoners there have been treated better than they possibly could have been expected to, then you are not going to believe any evidence of torture, even if you were to see live video of it.
Having said that, when links that are shown by one side of the argument providing evidence of torture, as was asked, are only opposed by the other side’s argument that a known liar’s oath of fair treatment–a liar who is behind the erosion of the rights of UniStatians–is proof of no torture, then my case is rested for me.
Aside from links, my basic argument about torture, though it offers no evidence, only uses common sense and no gullability, is the following:
Why do citizens of countries the world over always insist that their government could never engage in horrific activities? If you’ve ever been in even the smallest position of authority, you know how easy it can be to take advantage of that position, even in the most benign way.
And with all the crimes committed for centuries and centuries by governments of all types, why would one believe that the U.S. government (or Korean, Australian, Canadian, Norwegian, Pakistani, Swedish, Israeli, Algerian, Belgian, or name any of them) would NEVER engage in torture? It is naive to believe that there is no government in existence that wouldn’t commit or hasn’t already committed heinous acts to keep itself in power and/or for the illusion of keeping safe the sovereignty.
Marijuana is legal in the Netherlands so why not legalize it in Korea? Whaling is legal in Japan and for certain tribes of Innuit in Alaska, why not do it here? Certain indigenous tribes in Indonesia are so isolated as to be known to still practice cannibalism, why not in Korea? I don’t know Mr. Wizard, you tell me? I guess there were certain areas of circumlocution which we didn’t think even you would delve into.
We are supposed to believe no torture is going on because, let me get this straight, because George Bush and Dick Chaney said so? Oh, okay.
wjk, you are such a GW honk that there is nothing I could say or do to change your mind so I’m not gonna try. While the rest of his loyalists are abandoning ship you’re gonna ride with him right into the sun. Good luck with that.
Snow, you’re gonna have to dig yourself. I’ve got other things to do. You might start with Hoju-Saram’s import on 45. I don’t usually like CSM because, well, let’s just say their bendt. But, I have to admit, they usually present their case fairly well. That article was well written and something we need to remember. I’m surprised the author didn’t bring up more recent examples.
I try to read 3 newspapers a day and alot on the internet. Do a little of that.
Evidence:
http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanr.....60223.html
Why would FBI agents lie? Of course, the stuff they saw is not as bad as what has been alleged by detainees, of which there is little proof, but the U.S command denied inmates were mistreated at Abu Ghraib before the photos came out too.
Also, as I’ve already mentioned, I consider 5 years solitary confinement torture. Particularly when you haven’t been charged with any crime. Hicks, for example, didn’t see sunlight for 18 months. This is not disputed.
wjk, why not simply try these people? How do you even know they’re guilty?
Freedom is not free. You cannot pick and choose who you apply law and justice too. When you do that you undermine those very ideals upon which our societies are based. Even child rapists are put on trial - and for good reason. What if they’re innocent? The same rules need to be applied to everyone, without exception.
If you can’t understand this basic moral concept, you need to move to North Korea.
RE: #43: “You’re basing this purely on liberal conjecture.”
There you go again, Dubya, not using any original thoughts to make an argument, just throwing around labels. You have no idea whether I’m liberal or conservative, but it makes you feel better to say that I’m a liberal simply because my opinions/point of view/veracity is different from yours.
And you know what? I’m okay with your labels because it makes you feel more comfortable, and that’s the most important thing, okay, pumpkin?
“what are you, anyway? Who sports an image of Che and Castro?”
Well, I’m not a Mets fan, if that’s what you’re asking.
And what the hell does who or what I am have to do with this argument? Why does it matter if I sport an image of Che and Castro? Would it make you feel better if I sported a sports gravatar, say of the Colorado Rockies? How about if my gravatar were a Newcastle United logo? What if I sported a gravatar of a hamster being mounted by a cocker spaniel? Would that make you feel better about yourself? Or maybe I should just take a photo of some disinfectant and use that? Would Ren & Stimpy or The Black Adder be easier to take?
My gravatar (or lack thereof, if I choose) has no bearing on this argument, unless you feel that your Mets gravatar is cause for your inability to have an original thought outside of the liberal/conservative labels you inevitably use.
“Che was simply and purely an idiot.”
You’re entitled to your opinion, at least until Honest Dick Cheney takes that away from you (which could be any day, if you’re not careful).
dissidentdave, it is a little ironic that you’re speaking out against torture at Gitmo (on which point I agree with you) while sporting a gravatar featuring Fidel and Che. After all, they didn’t exactly do wonders for human rights outside the gates of Guantánamo:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova64.html
Speaking of Fidel and Che, I found some great T-shirts of those icons of the useful idiot left:
http://www.che-mart.com/store.php
Che wasn’t an idiot, but he most certainly was a cold-blooded mass murderer.
RE: #56
yes, ironic, indeed.
thanks for the link, ut videam. i’ll be checking out fontova’s book about che.
RE: #57
those are some funny t-shirts on that site. thanks for that link, too, wedge.
NOTE: i changed my gravatar yesterday to celebrate a certain american MLB team located a mile above sea level and to alleviate my decade-and-a-half suffering due to their usual shittiness. however, the change seems to be taking its time going into effect.
i had no idea a gravatar of che & fidel would generate the little attention it has. wonder what will happen when i put osama on it one day?
Robert said something about caching in his post announcing the return of gravatars. Perhaps that’s why your old one is still showing up here?
“Che was simply and purely an idiot.”
No he wasn’t. He was a sadistic and callous murderer who believed in forcing totalitarianism on people.
“I realise that I can show you the Amnesty link and Hoju can show you the CS Monitor link and more links can be provided that also show the veracity of these claims of torture; however, if you truly believe Honest Dick Cheney when he says that the prisoners there have been treated better than they possibly could have been expected to, then you are not going to believe any evidence of torture, even if you were to see live video of it.”
What are you talking about? I seriously mistrust the left, as the left has a history of lies, exaggerations and distortions, so I want to see some evidence, nothing more, nothing less. I never said a thing about whether I trust Bush or Cheney on the issue or not.
Actually, no, I don’t remember.
I’ve been to Cuba several times on holiday (not Valedero packages tours, solo travel all over the country), and Cubans are happy to tell you what they think of the beard and Che. They are surprisingly well informed and not shy about criticising Fidel (admittedly, they don’t like to talk politics on the street), especially about his centralized economic policies. They are generally supportive about foreign policy, education and health care. It’s the least racist country I’ve ever visited.
I disagree with the Che cult of personality (or worshiping any politician) and I think his ideology was naive and wrong, and like Andrew Jackson (google Indian Removal Act) engaged in some morally reprehensible acts. But consider that Humberto Fontova is a well known ultra-rightist who supports terrorists like Luis Posada Carriles.
That label better fits Fidel’s brother Raul, the most feared man in Cuba.
#62:
Why? Can you show that his “ultra-rightist” views have any bearing on the accuracy of his work? If not, this is just an intellectually dishonest attempt to dismiss his argument a priori.
Well, to quote that famous ultra-leftist saw, “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”
Actually, that’s a famous ultra-rightist saw, popularized by the Reaganites trying to justify US backing of the Contras and Sambivi’s UNITA…
Che…”engaged in some morally reprehensible acts”
Yes, he is a sadistic mass murdering Stalinist (though of course not nearly on the same level as Stalin, but he did want the Russians to nuke the US during the 1962 crisis). He is a piece of shit and deserves respect from no one. Why is this guy a poster child for the left?
Snow, unlike yourself I don’t see the world in black and white. Che oversaw the execution of Batista soldiers, collaborators and spies in ad-hoc military tribunals that lacked due process (ironic considering he was summarily executed without trial himself). That’s totally wrong and morally indefensible. Is that the same thing as mass murder? No. Mass murder is what happened in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by IDF backed Phalangists in Lebanon, to cite one example.
Che was a radical statist, much like the neo con PNAC signatories. I’m sure you wouldn’t know that, because you want everyone else to do your homework for you. And being Canadian doesn’t prevent you from being a hateful knee-jerk reactionary.
You may call for my tasing now.
Hahaha, elvislovechild, you are a nut. Typical of a leftist to call anyone who questions the left a knee jerk reactionary. I merely ask to see the evidence. I didn’t ever claim there was no torture. As I said before, the left has a history of lies, exaggerations and distortions and therefore, I want to see evidence for myself. And what’s this about black and white? What’s black and white about Che? He was a killer and a Stalinist. Nothing to be respected there. Where do I claim support for the IDF? Where’s my IDF t-shirt?
Yeah, and you’d better run as I’m just warming up the taser. Again, typical leftist thinking that stereotypes every neo-con as being ready to jump in with a taser at any sign of dissent. Funny how the tasering was done at a leftist event, probably filled with leftists. Unless the cops were right wingers, I doubt there were too many neo-cons around, unless they were ‘controlling’ the action behind the scenes.
#64:
Actually, if you want to split hairs, the phrase appears to have originated as a reference to the Irish Republican Army in Gerald Seymour’s 1975 novel Harry’s Game. Sure, it may have been popularized during the Reagan administration when it suited the purposes of the right. But it indisputably gained its greatest notoriety when it was used by the Reuters news head in a memo justifying his wire’s decision not to refer to the September 11th hijackers as terrorists. It’s also frequently been invoked in defense of Yassir Arafat. I think it’s safe to say that the left has gotten way more mileage out of it than the right.
Fair ’nuff… Thanks for the reference.
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