Archaeologists will get a crack at Japan’s royal tombs, some of which have recently been opened by the imperial household agency. This could prove fascinating, although depending on what archeologists find, Japanese ultra-nationalists might be somewhat dismayed:
Although the wartime emperor, Hirohito, renounced his divine status after Japan’s defeat in 1945, ultra-nationalists regard his son, the current Emperor Akihito, as a living god, and have issued death threats to archaeologists involved in previous attempts to gain access to the tombs.
Their greatest fear is that proper inspections of the tombs will reveal compelling evidence that the Japanese imperial family originated from China and the Korean peninsula.
(HT to reader)
38 Comments
Robert, completely wrong.
There is good comment at ampontan’s blog by a poster Aceface which describes the issue quite neatly.
“I am wondering how could these gaijin folks and leftwing Japanese and entire Korean nationhood totally forget about 日鮮同祖論,Japanese-Korean mutual ancestry theory,that was used to justify the annexation,so easily.Prewar educated people actually believe the imperial line came from Korea(or today’s Manchuria).
And digging up the Kofun is a dream project of every aechaeologist in Japan,but Japan happense to be already a NO.1 nation in digging up archaeological site,due to the fact that archaeological research is obligated as pre-construction procedure.So everyone is much more concerned about protecting the site and the artifacts which are already lacking budgets,instaed of digging hundreds of completely new gigantic sites.
I also don’t understand why everyone in overseas trying to exploit the post-war trend of Japan’s multiculturalism in archaeology (and other histrorical narratives)for the benefit of Korean ethno-centricism(I would even want call that an “ultra”,sometimes).
There are few Japanese Kofun style mounds were found in Southern Jeolla in the past two decades,but so far not much are done there,primary because Koreans are afraid of finding Japanese related artifacts(which are rational given the fact that Japan had accepted so many political exiles from the peninsular and even the nobles had intermarried with some of them.Vice versa could happen).”
http://ampontan.wordpress.com/.....mment-9499
I am getting a little bit tired by the conception of “the Japanese would get angry if they know that the royal family and ancient Japan had deep connection with ancient korea”.
Completely, 200% wrong. That is common knowledge for at least 100years among Japanese. This history WAS EXPLOITED to justify the annex ion of Korea. Because of that, it was always the Marxist, leftist, progressive intellectuals who got irritated when somebody mentioned about the deep relationship between ancient Japan and ancient Korea (relationship of royal families included). In the 80ies when Prime minister Nakasone visited Korea and gave lip services to the Korean praising the ancient relationship and even hinting that the royal family came from the peninsula, it was the leftist in Japan who made a fuzz about his “revisionist (because its against post-war marxist historiography which favored class struggle and evolution of the society against cultural diffusionism)” “ultra-nationalistic (because he praised the ancient relationship with the Korean thus being nostalgic about the colonial days when Japan and Korea was one nation)” “imperialistic (because he tried to make relationship with South Korea not North Korea, the only orthodox Korean nation in the eyes of the Japanese progressive and leftist intellectuals)” historical view.
“The Japanese will get irritated when they know that the royal family had it roots in Korea” is a Korean myth, based on their wishful thinking to maintain their nationalism based on the concept that the Japanese distort histories.
And I forgot to add, it is also a myth among Western journalist and some scholars (Jared Diamond is a good example. Although I am a huge Diamond fan, he completely miss to understand about modern Japanese nationalism) who are completely ignorant about the logic of Japanese Nationalism, Pan-Asianism, and Imperialism.
Robert, I have some history books for Japanese children, in Manga form, that clearly show the exchange of culture, knowledge, and technology between Korea, China and Japan (most of it flowing to Japan). There is no “cover up” if even children know it.
This is an “issue” to many Koreans, but I have not really heard of any Japanese being annoyed by it.
By the way, any Japanese with ancestors from the Korean peninsula in distant times are Japanese, not modern Koreans.
Even if it turns out Japanese imperial family originated from lands which are now China or Korea, I don’t see what the big deal is. Go back far enough and any Japanese (or replace any other people) will have migrated from some other land.
They can’t really think their emperor… or any king or emperor… really had any divine origin or blessing?
shaku, your thorough education based on Japanese manga cannot be disputed. You claim a vast knowledge based on Japanese manga. Surely, you are an expert in all matters pertaining to Japan.
“Robert, I have Japanese manga on this and that,”
“Robert, you’re a house nigger.”
–shakuhachi.
Tomojiro, interesting.
But Tomojiro, and Emperator, are they really cool with that?
Amateratsu, sun goddess, divine origin, isn’t that what they believe in on written form versus this supposed belief in a continental origin of the Emperor?
Does no one else take offense to wjk putting words in someone else’s mouth, especially when the words are as horrible as what wjk is saying?
I would like to formally request that wjk’s disgusting use of the English language be removed from what otherwise could have been a semi-intelligent conversation.
wjk,
did you even read what he wrote?
wjk,
Do you really believe that the majority of Japanese believe in such ridiculous myths? It’s no more ridiculous than saying that the majority of South Koreans believe in the myth on Tangun.
peter pan. I’m quoting shakuhachi verbatim.
I suppose all the Bush hating, and pro Imperial Japan folk want to use this to ban me or something.
But, I swear that I’m quoting him verbatim.
He should be banned. Not me.
wjk shoots entirely from the hip and reads others’ posts even less frequently than we read his. We should all pray that he’s more careful with facts and details in his actual profession.
Japan and Korea are fairly nationalistic.
I actually think in the back of their minds, Japan believes they are from the Sun Goddess, and Koreans seriously believe they are from the linegage of a Dan Gun, with a bear who turned into a woman in the lineage.
Koreans, be nice to women who resembles bears.
wjk
Did I call for you to be banned? Nope, I just want your racist comment which I as a member of the same species called man when you say it to be removed. The rest of your comment, no matter how silly it may be, should remain — as evidence. Never once did I ask for you to be banned. Personally I like the approach that leaves a whole comment with only 5 words remaining and 10 ‘racial slur removed’ warnings throughout the comment.
Since you’re putting words in my mouth now too, I had to ask, did you even read my comment, or maybe you were just, quoting me in ‘verbatim’?
verbatim: To make random stuff up and quote people even though they never said it. See straw-man.
Anyways, I take offense to your racist remarks, and as a member of the human species, I would like to request Robert removes that line.
wjk — if you’re going to attribute quotes, try to attribute them to the right person. Thanks.
WJK
In prewar time the annexation of Korea was justified using Japanese myth. To be fair, the Myths are very complex so what I write is a very simplistic version.
But generally, the Sun goddess Amaterasu was ordered by Gods to rule a place called “Taka-Amahara”. Amaterasu send his grand child to rule it. After some complex stories, this grand son was believed to became the origin of the Japanese people (WARNING, very simplistic version).
Now even during the Edo era, some scholars thought that these myths reflect some historical facts. So since then there was a debate where this Taka-Amahara could be.
Some propagated that it was southern Japan, some propagated that it was in the today’s Kansai region.
With arrival of modern archaeology and ethnology, it became clear that Japanese were a mixed race (indigenous people who inhabited there before agriculture came to Japan, and another people who were “conquerors” from the continent) from the beginning (Yes, already in the 19th century).
So that Japanese are mixed people, consisting of indigenous people which Ainu represented and conquerors from the continent, the emperor included was the first scientific explanation about the origin of the Japanese. So since then, efforts of archaeologists and ethnologists focused on where the origin of the “conquerors”, probably which was described as “Taka-Amahara” in ancient Japanese myths,could be traced.
Was it Korea? Was it South China? The above mentioned myth became to be interpreted along this line. So some Ethnologists and Archaeologist came to the conclusion that “Taka-Amahara”, the mystical world which Sun goddess Amaterasu was ordered to rule was, actually Korea.
And from here, only a short way left to the theory of “mutual ancestry of Japan and Korea” which was used to justify the annex ion of Korea, and which was described as one of notorious ideological tool of Japanese Imperialism in post war time.
Very funny, that some contemporary Koreans and western journalists, scholars use this hesitation to refer to the connection of Ancient Japan and Ancient Korea among progressive Japanese intellectuals as a device of enduring Japanese chauvinistic nationalism.
Who is distorting history here?
Definition of verbatim = word for word. I have never used any racial slur towards Robert in my life. Rather than the word verbatim, perhaps the word you are looking for is “fabrication”.
How about commenting on what I actually wrote?
# 1 > Yes it is true that the ancient relationship between Korea and Japan was exploited by Meji Japan during it’s occupation of Korea. However, it was always used to justify the occupation, and proclaim how one race was better then the other not to establish an equality between the two or vice versa. Also, Empress Jingo’s invasions of southern Korea was always portrayed as it was in the Nihongi, as a purely historical event, regardless of the fact that there is a lack of archaeological or corresponding extra-Japanese textual evidence.
# 3 and # 4> Yes it is true that any Koreans who went to Japan 1,500 years ago are now Japanese today. However, for better or for worse, nationality in North East Asia today is not always seen in this way.
I for one think that the whole thing is rather interesting. There are many continental, particularly peninsular, items, symbols, etc. found in the Japanese tombs of the era that we have been allowed to look into. The Takamatsuzuka and the Kitora tombs are of particular interest. I think most of the artifacts were robbed through time, but the wall murals in the tombs are extremely interesting. The Kitora tomb contains paintings of four animal deities of Chinese origins, but arrayed in a way and in a style that was consistant with tombs in the Korean kingdoms of Baekje and Koguryo. In the ceiling of this tomb is a astrological chart that shows what the stars would look like if you were viewing the sky from the 39th parallel, roughly where Pyongyang is at.
The Takamatsuzuka tomb has wall murals of people wearing peninsular (Baekje?) style clothing. Stuff like multicolor pleaded skirts, long tunics, etc.
Then there are the Haniwa figures…
#14,
During the late 19th/early 20th centuries, the Japanese government tried to assimilate the Ainu because their existence threatened their ethnic-nationalist ideology…but that’s probably better suited for another thread.
Question: What is Robert of the article so wrong about?
I don’t think Robert and the article are wrong at all. Note he and the article specifically refer to the “right-wing” reaction, specifically “ultra-nationalists” and not Japan as a whole. Both do nothing more than describe the possible reaction of one segment of Japanese society, the right-wing, arguably one of the loudest segments.
I think without a doubt Japanese right-wingers would not look forward to hearing anything that would demystify or lessen their notions of the uniqueness of Japan’s origins. Modern (and not Imperial era) ultra-nationalists simply do not indulge themselves in such thoughts. The Imperial Household Agency also seems to display a high degree of reticence regarding opening up these historical sites for archaeological review, thought the reasons of which could be any number of things. These two specific groups are highlighted by the Guardian’s article. There is hardly anything wrong with the article itself.
What I find wrong is what people are reading into the Robert’s post and the article.
I often see accusations bandied about such as “the western-reporter doesn’t know a thing” and “Koreans with ulterior motives.” Certainly there are many cases where this is true, and where it happens criticism should follow. Yet, at least to me, what Tomojiro wrote hardly seems controversial or insightful, it ought to be known to anyone with medium level of interest in East-Asian archaeology, or someone with who has studied Japan’s early 20th century expansionist ideology. When I was an undergraduate attending a very liberal university in America, I learned of what Tomojiro wrote in no less than three different classes: in an East-Asian archaeology class, a modern Japanese history class, and a modern Korean history class. What was interesting was that the Korean professor of my Korean history class practically said verbatim what Aceface said. He did not attribute the reticence to open the tombs to any modern conspiracy whereby Japanese are afraid to acknowledge a Korean connection; rather he attributed that more to the conservatism and control of the Imperial Household Agency. Indeed my Japanese archaeology professor looked forward to the day when more tombs could be excavated, and despite being rather left-wing, noted their possible importance in discovering the extent of mainland Asian (specifically Korean) influences in the development of early Japan. I don’t think there is any conspiracy by westerners or Koreans to try to paint Japan as being a nation scared of admitting its (ancient) multi-ethnic past. Where criticism does arise, it is almost invariably pointed towards ultra-nationalists.
Getting back to Robert’s post and the Guardian article, I still see nothing wrong with the points they raised, which is that modern day ultra-rightists would hardly welcome stronger evidence of a important ancient Korean contribution to the Imperial family, and that the Imperial Household Agency is reluctant to open up the tombs due to their possibly shedding more unwanted light into said family’s origins.
dchan
You still don’t get it. It is rather the traditional right winger who were more willing to propagate ancient relations with the peninsula.
Albeit I am only refering to the traditional right winger. Not the new internet right winger.
@tomojiro
I think the problem here is, like many arguments, definitional.. in this case, the definiton of “right-winger”. I think Robert was talking about a more contemporary “right-wing” ideology, the one that apparently deifies the current Japanese emperor (and I use “apparently” because I am no expert in the matter), while you are talking about the Meiji ~ WWII “right-winger “(again, I’m no expert, so please correct the era names if there’s mistakes). While perhaps the two share some similarities, as you note in your first comment they hold different beliefs in this issue.
It’s like how the term “Conservatives” is used to encompass Conservatives and Neo-Conservatives within U.S. politics discourse. There are some similarities in their views, but on certain issues they are completely at odds with each other.
No doubt there will be some sectors of Korean population who will glee at the prospect of Korean blood within the Japanese imperial household, but honestly, who cares (except the archaeologists, anthropologists, and the fields’ respective hobbyists)?
bumfromkorea
The relation with Korea is a common sence,hardly a controversial fact even among contemporary right winger. Thus, emperor Akihito’s speach in which he refered to Ancient Korea was hardly a news in Japan. It was reported, but no reaction, either from the left or the right. None. It was just ordinary report about the emperor’s speach not a news.
It was quite funny to watch, how the Korean media and Western media making a fuzz that it was “path breaking”, “a blow to the right wingers in Japan”.
Wrong.
dchan, Japanese “right wingers” concern themselves with modern issues more than historically issues running back thousands of years.
Also, how are the Japanese right wing one of the “loudest segments” of Japanese society? They have no friends in the media, and have not been able to get a single item on their agenda enacted by any politician.
What is loud is the myth of the Japanese right wing conspiracy. The instant someone starts talking about that is the instant you know they don’t know what they are talking about.
“dchan, Japanese “right wingers” concern themselves with modern issues more than historically issues…
…They have no friends in the media, and have not been able to get a single item on their agenda enacted by any politician.”
Oh really? The Ministry of Education and their persistence to gloss over historical truths comes to mind among other things…
‘Robert, I have some history books for Japanese children, in Manga form, that clearly show the exchange of culture, knowledge, and technology between Korea, China and Japan (most of it flowing to Japan). There is no “cover up” if even children know it.’ shak
could you give some examples from these comic books? could you give us the name of said comics? if you decide to answer, could you write their names in kanji?
“What is loud is the myth of the Japanese right wing conspiracy. The instant someone starts talking about that is the instant you know they don’t know what they are talking about.”
Who said anything about a right-wing conspiracy? Methinks you read your own issues and insecurities into the issue at hand.
I find that far too often, the moment someone mentions utters those magic words “don’t really know what they’re talking about,” what is sure to follow is a self-righteous statement insinuating that really, they are in fact privileged to the “truth.”
“Japanese “right wingers” concern themselves with modern issues more than historically issues running back thousands of years.”
Sure, I suppose then that issues of history, modernity, culture and identity are much less intertwined and complex than they I took them to be.
Replace the word “Japanese right wing” with “some racist Japanese” would be more accurate. They may have right/left wing ideologies or no particular ideologies. To them, the very ideal that the Japan is somehow historically related to the ‘chon’ (common derogatory word for Koreans), would disgust them. I’m sure many will dismiss any findings (if there are any findings to link Japanese royalty to Korea, at this point I’m not sure) as Zainichi Korean lies. Zainichi Koreans do horrible crimes pretending to be real Japanese giving Japanese a bad name. And then wait until the Korean nutizens get a hold of any findings to Korea.
It would have been better if they didn’t disturb those tombs. Let sleeping dogs alone. We don’t need any more racialism and racial animosity.
China????
Well, I know Jap imperial family has korean blood but China???
Anyone knows about the Chinese side?
Yikes! If the Japanese are Koreans would the “barbaric” 35-year occupation thus be reunification?
Damn Americans, divided the country twice.
I’m also under the impression that there isn’t a conspiricy by the Imperial Household agency. It’s just conservative and bureaucratic.
Anyways, I’m all for anything that can quite down the ultra-nationalists in Japan. A friend of mine came back from teaching English in Japan and he says those black vans w/the loud speakers are getting more numerous.
# 28, I think that East Asia (or anyone else for that matter) has a flawed sense of nationality of it thinks that genetics and nationalism should be tied together.
Tomojiro and Shakuhachi:
As I understand the debate, summarized in the Jarrod Diamond article, no one disputes that there was an interchange of culture, or a flow of knowledge, particularly rice culture, from Korea to Japan around 1500 to 2000 years ago.
The debate concerns whether:
A)The Japanese hunter gatherers maintained control of their land, sending scholars to study in Korea and China, or inviting a few Korean craftsmen to acquire new technology, in which case the Japanese today could trace their lineage all the way back to the Sun Goddess and Japan’s original inhabitants
This is the version nationalists in Japan would prefer.
or,
B)The technologically advanced Koreans, possessing rice culture, colonized Kyushu. With their more productive farming techniques, the population their population exploded and they displaced the native Japanese, pushing them all the way up to Hokkaido, where they exist today as the Ainu. In this case, the ‘modern Japanese’ are really descendents of Korean colonizers, with no lineage connecting them to the country’s original inhabitants.
This is the version Koreans would prefer, and is also what Diamond considers to be more plausible, since historically, societies with more advanced technology have shown a tendency to crush primitive hunter gatherer groups.
Tomojiro and Shakuhachi, you both ignore the crucial element of power and politics in the flow of technology from Korea to Japan, and describe a kind of harmonious mixing of peoples to make up the present Japanese people. MOst likely, it was not harmonious, but involved domination - one group taking the other group’s women, property and valuable possessions, etc.
There also exists an interesting parallel here with the Saxon invasion of England, around 600 AD? or so (not sure of the date). There too, people on the island suddenly adopted entirely new customs, burial patterns,etc. And there is a debate as to whether they simply mimicked a new powerful group, or whether it was Saxon settlers displacing the original inhabitants. In the case of Japan/Korea, though, rice culture would have given the Koreans a great power advantage over the Japanese hunter gatherers.
tomojiro, what you say is probably the truth.
Yes, what Tomojiro says is most likely the truth.
Yes, it was in a theoretical sense a “reunification” and I have heard from a Korean source of intellectual work that indeed that was one of the pretexts the Imperial Japanese used to justify putting Chosun under the Japanese crown.
I have never heard of a Chinese source of royalty claiming the Japanese crown.
But, it is a strong possibility because southern Chinese pronunciation of Chinese characters are so similar to the Korean and the Japanese. The Oh-eum.
What I always wondered about was what connection the Japanese share with Indonesia. I think there is a genetic match, but I am not certain. I just read it in some odd book.
However, we are talking about 1/2 to the n th power of continental blood, possibly Korean, being in the Japanese Imperial blood line.
what relevance is that, really?
Take a look at the European crowns, and you see that Queen Victoria spread Hemophilia to Britain, Spain, Russia, etc, etc.
and ultimately, the Japanese came to Korea to take, take, take. What if any good was done by claiming blood relations?
that was what was really wrong about that “reunification”.
Please note that to my knowledge, the current British monarchy has 1/2 to n=
Please note that to my knowledge, the current British monarchy has 1/2 to n=
in short,
Korea says the Emperor is Korean when it fits their objectives. They have no interests in buying the emperor anything, not even lunch.
Japan said the Emperor was Korean, when it was convenient to annex Korea. And it was a perfect excuse. And, probably never mentioned again.
“Take a look at the European crowns, and you see that Queen Victoria spread Hemophilia to Britain, Spain, Russia, etc, etc.”
Do you preview your comments before you post?! What the hell does this have to do with Japan’s royal tombs?
global, on the other side of the world, having a drop of a rival country’s blood here and there doesn’t seem to mean anything significant.
In fact, it’s only natural that there is some strategic or forced mixing of blood.
Korea has no respect for the Emperor, but when it’s convenient for its objectives, Korea says the Emperor is Korean. No plans to honor the Emperor whatsoever, though.
Japan says the Emperor is Korean when it needed an excuse to annex Korea. In other instances, it denies such an idea.
You don’t see the British crown claiming Spain, Austria, Russia, and Germany.
Further evidence the “right wing” has even les s backing than ever.
If they had any support, they wouldn’t have to resort to driving around in trucks with loudspeakers to get their message heard. Yes it’s sad that Japan is a democratic free nation where these minorities are allowed to think whatever they want, but it could be worse. In my home country for example, the right wing has their own TV station, owns a majority of the printed news media, and even has their puppet in the White House.
I’ve said it before and I’ll continue to say it again; loudspeaker trucks is great because it means they have no support. Once they disappear I get suspicious. Think of the homeless Vietnam vet that hangs out on your corner talking about Aliens, that’s what these black trucks are. I can’t wait until we hear from Onishi writing in the NY Times about the reassuring looney toones in America because he went and watched said crazies give a speech with no one listening. That’s about how justified these claims of the evil right wing in Japan are.
“Korea says the Emperor is Korean when it fits their objectives. They have no interests in buying the emperor anything, not even lunch.
Japan said the Emperor was Korean, when it was convenient to annex Korea. And it was a perfect excuse. And, probably never mentioned again.”
Well, wjk, to some degree I agree with that. Never mentioned again is maybe a too strong word because the relationship between ancient Korea and ancient Japan is basically textbook knowledge here in Japan, and the most popular post war theory of the origin of the Japanese emperorship in Japan was the theory of “Conquest of Japan by the mounted horse riders (騎馬民族征服説) who originated from Manchuria and came via Korea”, propagated by the Japanese archaeologist and ethnologist Egami Namio in which he argued that basically the Japanese royal family and other superior cast of these conquerors had their origin in Koguryo .
. Koguryo tombs and other material stuff was used to justify this theory, and post war “progressive” or “leftist” archaeologist tried hard to discharge his theory. The funny thing is although this theory was actually regarded as wrong in academic circles quite early in the 1970ies, it remained popular among amateur historian and among the mass media (until the mid 1990ies, you could find every year a new book who handled this theory)..
If you want to understand the relation of ancient Japan and Korea, you have to drop the modern consciousness of nation and nationalism. I don’t believe that there was any “Japanese” or “Korean” in the modern sense 1500 years ago.
“If you want to understand the relation of ancient Japan and Korea, you have to drop the modern consciousness of nation and nationalism. I don’t believe that there was any “Japanese” or “Korean” in the modern sense 1500 years ago.”
Yes, that’s right.