A group of 24 recruiters from Thailand’s Office of Civil Service Commission visited Korea to learn about the Korean government’s recruiting and human resource management system.
Benchmarking Korean HR. Now there’s an interesting choice, considering that the Korean way of managing HR ain’t exactly something that you want to emulate somewhere else.
Well if the Thais want to benchmark Korean HR, it’s their choice, but I hope that for the Thais’ sake that they don’t implement the measures that their Korean counterparts are recommending to them.
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So, one more kick has just been given to the SNU grads… they can have any job in the Thai gov’t from here on out.
KDI has a mandate and a budget to organize conferences with as many foreign faces as possible.
My bet: all 24 or them are here at KDI’s expense.
The conference was to study the Korean government’s recruiting and HR-management practices — for government personnel. There is not a pronounced problem with respect to government personnel other than their sense of entitlement to bribes (which diminishes day by day) and the notion that the public exists to serve them rather than the other way around.
If the conference were here to study and adopt human-resources practices for the private sector I would alert them Danger, Will Robinson! but otherwise this seems innocuous enough.
What is your point? Perhaps a few examples regarding why you think the Korean HR system is bad would be good. Thailand is still a developing country, though lately it has moved to become a donor nation. Korea successfully used HRD policies in order to rapidly (of course, not perfectly) invigorate the Korean economy and boost education indicators.
I really do feel like you are reaching just to criticize.
As much as living in Korea frustrates me from time to time, I do feel like the Korean model of development (which stressed HRD) can teach the developing world a lot. The New Community Movement model farms have had great success over the years in Africa.
I feel like the Marmot should start vetting the senseless bitching. Perhaps you could start by vetting my comment.
To be clear, for those who might want to say “they developed with U.S. and Japanese money” to make it sound like Korea didn’t do squat, I’d like to point out that far larger sums have been thrown at nations like, for example Haiti, without much success.
That’s not the feeling I get when I meet with a Korean bureaucrat. Of course I could be wrong, and yes there may be good apples among the bad, and yes bureaucrats from other countries don’t do their jobs that well either, but let’s consider this. Does the current system effectively punish those bureaucrats who have been caught red handed accepting bribes or misusing public funds? Has it changed the mind set of the bureaucrats from the you serve me attitude to the we serve you attitude?
Because if there isn’t a problem with the Korean government HR system then bureaucrats with the problems mentioned above, should have been eased out of the system a long time ago.
“Roh has dismissed criticism that the government has hired 50,994 officials since he took office in 2003 …The government hired 12,442 new officials earlier this year. As of the end of last year, the number of officials stood at 957,208″
“… the total number of employed rose 1.3 percent to 23.8 million…”
“Korea employs one civil servant per 41.1 persons, more than Japan (30.4), France (13.6), England (13.3) and the United States (15.3).”
(all 2007 Joongang stories)
Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but shouldn’t the Joongang have said FEWER than other countries (or at a lower rate)? It seems to me that 1:41.1 is fewer than 1:13.3
Government officials on junkets… Nothing to see here, move along…
Well, its hard to decide which country is more corrupt, I guess the Thais believe Korea is better in this respect. Perhaps the Koreans will teach the Thais how to extract bigger bribes from the population. Perhaps Korea will throw in how not to prosecute business leaders who break all kind of laws as well. Korea #1
mins0306, could you elaborate on your claim that “the Korean way of managing HR ain’t exactly something that you want to emulate somewhere else”? I have no idea how the Korean government manages human resources so you may very well be right, but saying “I’ve seen a few corrupt bureaucrats” is hardly adequate an explanation.
#10.
Where to begin. To tell you the truth I don’t know how the Korean government manages HR either. So I am going to go with what I know and have experienced.
It’s has less to do with corruption and more to do with well the effectiveness of this system. When people say HR, you expect a system that picks the right people, trains them, makes sure that they are performing up to expectations via a clear and objective evaluation process, that the high performers are rewarded with more opportunities plus financial compensation, that the people that are not performing to expectations are eased out, and that people who have broken the rules or committed a crime for that matter on the job are punished.
Now has the system being doing its job in regards to the above? If you look at it step by step, the answer is no. The government HR system picks bureacrats via exams, which means people can get a government job as long as they are good at memorizing things. Okay, bureacrats push paper, but a lot of people in corporations push paper too, does that mean that a person shouldn’t be picked on his/her merits? On top of that bureacrats who do not do their jobs or misuse public funds, play con men, etc are not punished. They get a slap on the wrist and it’s done with. They are rarely fired for their misdeed. Which means a lot of deadwood is kept in the organization and the cycle of no good repeats itself.
Okay, you may think that I may be asking a lot out of the government, and considering that bureacrats at other countries are the same that may be true. But still I do believe that they should at least be a HR system to make sure that the bureacrats are doing their jobs properly. I mean I pay taxes at the least that’s what I should get in return for giving up part of my paycheck.
Which brings me to my main point. The Korean system of HR hasn’t been good when it comes to selecting the right people, training them, making sure that they are rewarded according to merit, objectively evaluating them, etc. The HR system here rewards and advances people according to seniority, loyalty and cronyism. Not a type of system that you want to be teaching others.
I hope this satisfies your request for an explanation.
mins, interestingly, the korean government has recently instituted a series of reforms to the bureaucracy which throws open a range of senior and mid-level positions to people who have not passed the exam. also, the government has instituted bonus systems based on performance and a entire system to measure that performance. It’s fair to say that it is a work in progress but I think that they are clearly addressing it. And that is almost certainly what people were talking about at that forum. (Korean government loves to trumpet its 혁신).
Regarding your notion that civil servants never receive more than a slap on the wrist, I would bring your attention to all those Seoul City officials who were identified as slackers and made to take a remedial learning program, followed by basic work that normal peons do. That program, I believe, is currently running and it’ll be interesting to see how many civil servants survive. I personally think the City’s tactics were typically Korean in their ham-handedness and insensitivity. But, you can’t tell me those civil servants got just a slap on the wrist.
mjw, yes Seoul City is instituting reforms as are some government agencies, but it’s a big pool with lots of fish. So if some fish decides to reform and most don’t does that mean that the system is working?
If I remember correctly there was a case where certain civil servants went on a seminar or something work related to S. America and during the time went on a side trip and charged the government for it. The government found out but those civil servants who were involved got off lightly. now if that isn’t a slap in the wrist, then what is it?
Now mjw, I don’t know if you’re Korean or non-Korean. I don’t know what your beliefs and standing is, but obviously you don’t like my way of thinking. Fine by me. Just do me a favor let’s not make things harder than it is. OK?
You got sharp eyes, pixel. You’re right. I had to read more than twice to be sure I was reading it correctly.
mins… Once again, I ask you to relax. I didn’t say you were wrong. And if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the damn kitchen. If you write publicly, you put yourself out there. Get used to it, or go home. And, by the way, part of getting used to it means understanding the difference between a guy flaming you and another guy engaging you or just plain keeping you honest. First step is always to try to understand, and I don’t think you did that with my comments (the fish pool thing? I just didn’t get you there…)
About the issue at hand: clearly there are lots of anecdotes that one side or the other can drag up. You chose the one about the side trip. What you don’t know is the true extent of the punishment for those guys and, what you also may not be aware of, is that it is very, very difficult to get fired from ANY job in Korea, let alone in the civil service. Never mind the unions, the social taboos against firing a guy are very strong. Then again, I’ve seen egregious abuses back home (I’m a former civil servant) and heads have not rolled (heck, I’m a detroit lions fan; don’t get me started about Matt Millen!). So, those guys that went on the side trip might not have been fired, but they may have been barred from further promotion/bonus, etc. That IS a major punishment when you have to go back to explain to your wife why your career path has been stunted. And, if you fail to make the next promotion grade, eventually you get forced out of the civil service and land in a taxi or running your own small restaurant. It’s not the plan you had in mind, ergo, punishment worse than a slap on the wrist.
“mjw, yes Seoul City is instituting reforms as are some government agencies, but it’s a big pool with lots of fish. So if some fish decides to reform and most don’t does that mean that the system is working?”
One last comment, you can’t just poo-poo a guy’s point like that. Who are all these fish? What I know is that the government has instituted some major major reforms for personnel evaluations, from senior ministers on down to lowest levels of management. These evaluations feed directly back into pay grade increases and other bonuses, promotions, and career building opportunities (ie. staff exchanges to peru, and the like). It took several years to negotiate all the changes and not all have been adopted/initiated. It takes time to make changes like this but you can’t deny the evidence that the Koreans are making both an effort and some progress.
You obviously haven’t worked for me
Huh!!?? Does not compute. Does not compute. Does not compute!
Maybe they should wait one before they start holding themselves out as a model to emulate.
In less than a couple of years in my job for private company in clean energy tech, I’ve taken numerous business trips abroad with city, provincial, central gov. officials and workers of state run agencies for “research and fact finding purposes”. I’ve seen a blatant disregard for travel expenses, bogus expense reports (where request were even made to me to fabricate receipts) and where basically a much larger number of staff than required would attend these trips.
An O/S trip is often seen as a reward or a perk for time served. The officials would act in a manner as though they deserve their “paid vacation” shamelessly taking part in tourism and “fun” parts of the trips and kicking back during meetings. Copious amounts of soju and kimchi are usually brought along. In fact, the youngest member is usually the “짐꾼” or porter for the seniors.
In the coming week before a trip I get numerous calls, “what is famous to buy there?” “What are the main tourist attractions?” etc etc.
I couldn’t help but chuckle to myself at the Incheon city officials behaviour in Qatar during the Asian games. But that’s pretty much the norm cameras/reporters or no cameras/reporters. In fact, usually the when reporters join in they’re just as bad.
Having said all that, there are some amazingly diligent officials with whom I’ve worked and well respect and even consider my mentors.
I can’t believe nobody has yet to mention the Thai bureaucrats; a less productive, more inefficient bunch of bastards with a bigger sense of self-entitlement you would be hard pressed to find. It’s probably an interesting case study for them in implementation of standards, given that there are next to none down there. Showing them a first world system would probably result in sensory overload, so they have understandably set the bar lower in coming here.
“what you also may not be aware of, is that it is very, very difficult to get fired from ANY job in Korea, let alone in the civil service. Never mind the unions, the social taboos against firing a guy are very strong. ”
This is very true, despite dda’s humorous declaration of himself as an exception. Some kind of group cohesion psychology, I think.
I wasn’t joking — even if I made my last comment in a humorous tone. I fired more people in my 7 years as a biz exec in Korea than most people I know… The Labor Laws make it slightly difficult, but if you do it the Korean Way™ — ie blatant disregard of the letter of the law and a minor pay-off — it works pretty well.
The thing is that Korean employees often expect from foreign employers a double standard: strict application of The Law™ [or rather whatever misconception they have of it] when it suits them, and devotion to the Korean Way™ when the law doesn’t work out too good for them. I played the same trick on them, which was probably easier for me since I never spoke to any of them in a foreign language. A discussion in Korean does tend to bring out some pre-formatted behaviours in them.
And now let the Commies bash me until kingdom come…
Although my experience is limited to that of a foreigner working for the Korean government, I worked alongside many Koreans who were contracted from the private sector to work as govt. officials.
The hiring process was easy for me but I had a chungjang who worked hard to make sure everything went smoothly and good old Mayor Hur also supported my hiring.
Retiring, however, was much much more difficult and took a good six months from the day I announced that I would not renew my contract for another 2 years to get everything solved, including down to the exact week I was due to leave the country and move back to the States. Had I not had experience retiring from another Korean government job prior to this one, I would have been screwed out of my pension which is given in a lump sum. Thankfully I was familiar with the process and put up a stink until I got my money (and it was not easy for a whole slew of reasons). Good luck to whoever replaces me if they are a foreigner as well.
In regards to HR practices and contracting people from the private sector, before I left, I was told that whoever replaces me will apply for the job and be offered a position this month but they will not be officially hired until January of 2008 (not that I think they really need to refill my position now that the organization has been completely revamped since the days I started working there and the job description I had has completely changed in function and role despite what is written in the job description for the new hire). Anyway, that’s a long time from the moment an offer it made and accepte to the person’s first day of work and first month of payment.
All in all things worked out for me but it was because I was pushy and I don’t feel bad about being “inconvenient” because it was the only way things got done on time before I was due to leave the country. Is the Korean govt.’s HR system an ideal one for others to follow? I suppose like all govt. jobs, nothing is ever easy or clear…and Korea is no exception. I wouldn’t say it’s the worst model out there but it isn’t the best either in my experience.
But perhaps “benchmarking” in Thailand is similar to Korean government “benchmarking” in that it really is just a euphemism for a work-paid vacation with very little intention of learning anything.