The S. Korean government is planning to ask the hostages and the Saemmul Church to reimburse the cost of releasing the recently released hostages from Taliban captivity.
The Saemmul Church has agreed to pay for the air fares of the released hostages and the cost for transporting the two slain male hostages to Korea. It has agreed to “cooperate fully” in regards to the medical treatment costs of the hostages, although it has not decided whether to pay in full or pay a percentage.
68 Comments
They should pay MOFAT for sending their officials to Afghanistan while they’re at it.
The Saemmul Church and kidnapped missionaries have already paid for the Korean government’s services — they are taxpayers, and consular protection of citizens is a sovereign duty. Otherwise, what is the government for?
#2.
Yes, the kidnapped missionaries have already paid their taxes. However, the Saemmul Church is exempt from paying taxes.
Fair enough, the church does not pay tax. Its members, however, do. And those taxes already pay for the Foreign Ministry and the appeasers in the Blue House. No extra charge is necessary.
So as a tax paying citizen, I don’t have to pay toll for bridges, drivers license, tuition for school (Public School), fishing license or anything, cuz I pay taxes, I am king of the world!
I think they do need to pay all the fees and cost of this situation. Cuz as a tax paying citizen, I feel the cost was too much, the K gov payed too much, the K citizens have payed too much to save them, not just in terms of money, time, image and who knows what other things. Personally, I believe those hostages released need to go directly to jail.
As citizens, of any nation, we have agreed to a contract with the nation we are citizens of. This agreement is an agreement of responsibility with the nation. This agreement and responsibility spreads to all citizens. These missionaries, broke their responsibility. Like a convict loosing their rights, these people have lost their rights to live within the common community and should go to jail. They need to at least financially repay the Korean people, at the very least with money. The church that sent them also need to pay.
Someone needs to take responsibility for this. No one made them go. The government told them not to go. They went anyway. Who’s responsible?
Besides, they want to be missionaries, let them be missionaries in prison.
Brendon,
Weren’t they instructed not to travel to Afghanistan?
I don’t know how it goes in the US, but in Canada if someone ignores warning signs he or she can be heavily fined/billed the cost of the rescue. It happens all the time when idiots go skiing down restricted hills in the Rockies.
Yup, I agree that’s the relevant model. This is quite extraordinary “consular protection service”, and they should pay it back and offer public apologies.
> I believe those hostages need to go directly to jail.
Naw, let them be with their families. But the church leaders that sent them should definitely get a year in prison each.
Nope. While the above statement is true, the government is not supposed to use sane taxpayers’ monies to rescue assholes who went into harm’s way knowing what they were doing [ref photo taken in front of advice poster at IIA].
As an aside I saw today on today’s SCMP front page that the South Korean aid workers were released. Thar bit had me grumble for 5 minutes…
Much as I’d like that, they haven’t broken the law, AFAIK. But a law indeed should be passed to forbid travel to war zones unless one has gotten permission. That would make the proselytes break the law and liable to prosecution…
“Naw, let them be with their families. But the church leaders that sent them should definitely get a year in prison each.”
And what is your justification? Plus, there’s something called the legal system. You can’t lock away people just because you think you are “morally obliged”.
Most of those young missionaries were doe-eyed members of a flock who just followed their sunbaedul. I’d say stick it to the organizers and church leaders who made the decisions.
Hey dda and all of you other people who can’t understand the actions of someone who isn’t just looking out for numero uno,
They were in fact aid workers. They weren’t proselytizing in Afghanistan or even carrying Bibles.
Do you people think that all hostages and their families should pay their expense releases? Did Daniel Pearle’s wife pay? Should she have? Is a reporter risking his life to bring us the news more important that these people risking their lives to aid the impoverished in Afghanistan? Having the families pay to bring them back, especially the dead bodies, is really unheard of when someone died in a hostage situation. It’s not skiing. You should be outraged.
Halubang,
Their type of fundamentalist Penticostalism thrives on prostyletyzing - there’s no way they were going to Afghanistan as mere aid workers. I’d say the comparison you draw is unequal, at best. I’m sorry about the two executed hostages, but they should have been aware of the dangers of going to a country where absolutely ruthless behavior is and has been the norm for decades.
You sure about that?
Robert,
Yes, that is, according to NPR and other media sources. They even had the permision of the Afgan goverment for that reason.
And, of course, they didn’t violate that agreement. Not ever.
Despite other church groups having done so (and whose actions, posted on previous threads here, are observable on YouTube), this group had no intentions of proselytising while in Afghanistan.
They were refreshingly different.
They were euphemistically and protectively referred to as aid workers while they were in captivity, but now that the crisis has passed, they are being correctly and safely identified as missionaries. I’m afraid we’re some 200-300 years away from having a Muslim world in which Christian missionaries are allowed to spread their faith with the freedom that Muslims enjoy to do so in the industrialized world.
Dude, you need to unstick that head of yours from wherever you plonked it. There is enough evidence — in Korean, but I guess if your source of information is the NPR, you’re not only deluded, but clueless — of the fact they are missionaries on a short-term proselytizing mission — to embarrass the whole Korean Protestant community until Kingdom come or whatever the expression is. Some people had started to post links to the evidence, and Robert, our indulgent host, had asked to refrain until the situation is over. As he said — if you can read it, so can the Taleban. But I think it is time to post the links to the pictures of these dudes doing prayer sessions in mosques, and the 아프간 단기선교 지원서 — the short-term proselytizing in Afghanistan application form — these dudes filled out. Really.
This link will do for a start.
“I’m afraid we’re some 200-300 years away from having a Muslim world in which Christian missionaries are allowed to spread their faith with the freedom that Muslims enjoy to do so in the industrialized world.”
Ouch, exactly spot on, slim.
Slim:
….seriously, can we stop referring to them as ‘young’? It’s both incorrect to state so, and the poorest of excuses used to justify why they should not be treated according to full legal and social forces upon their return to Korea. It also insults those of a young age who are far wiser and more aware of the world’s real goings-on than this lot.
CNN reveals their ages… showing they’re not so young after all:
…The kidnappers initially released three women — Ahn Hye-jin, 31; Lee Jung-ran, 33; and Han Ji-young, 34.
Hours later they freed four women and a man — Goh Se-hoon, 27, a male student; Lee Sun-young, 37, a translator; Yim Hyun-joo, 32, a nurse; Yoo Jung-hwa, 39, an English teacher; and Lee Ji-young, 36, a Web designer.
Later in the day, they released three women and a man — Yoo Kyung-Shik, 55 (male); Suh Mung-Hwa, 29; Lee Ju-Yun, 27; and Cha Hyae-Jin, 31 — according to South Korea’s foreign ministry.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WO.....index.html
From their perspective, they did it voluntarily to save someone’s soul.
It’s aid as aid is defined in their minds.
Leave them alone.
Apparently to most, it’s not aid.
I accept that.
Yes, I wish I hadn’t brought up whether or not they are aid workers or not. It really distracted from my main point that they are out there risking themselves for an altruistic cause (something none of us have probably tried) and being badmouthed worse than any group of hostages I’ve ever heard of.
This is worst case of blaming the victims I’ve ever seen. If they were naive and didn’t understand the risk involved, they are certainly victims. On the other hand, if they knew the risk, but wanted to selfless to do some good then they are heroes. Few hostages during the ‘war on terror’ have died for a more selfless cause. They died a martyr’s death as Christian missionaries have been doing for 2000 years.
Nothing altruistic about proselytizing. Moronic, sure. They’re neither martyrs nor heroes, and if they’re victims, it’s of their own stupidity. I hope the survivors learned a lesson.
I retract the word “young” then.
You say it was wrong for them to steer Muslims away from Islam.
OK.
Sure.
Is it right for you steer Christians away from Christianity?
Wait.
Hold on, I say.
Double standard?
Of course.
As much as it is a sin in Islam to accept Christianity, it is a sin in Christianity to commit blasphemy and causing Christians to question and lose faith.
But, I accept your double standard. It’s nothing new under the sun.
My comments toward JK never got through. I suppose I’m under a black list for multiple comments, some possibly non relevant to the thread. Ok. Cool. I’ll keep it minimal.
JK, you wronged that woman.
Who said that? I’ve heard plenty of people saying that missionary work isn’t altruism or particularly laudable. Also plenty of people questioning the wisdom of entering a country where people are known to be hostile to attempts at conversion. I don’t think quite as many people would be calling these people retards if they went to a mosque in Cincinnati and were held hostage there. After all, we like to think that America (yes, even Cincinnati) is somehow more sensitive to the concept of religious freedom… But if you ignore a known danger in order to try and convince someone that your fairy tale is better than theirs… well, that’s not a whole lot different from walking out into the middle of a freeway.
“….I don’t know how it goes in the US, but in Canada if someone ignores warning signs he or she can be heavily fined/billed the cost of the rescue…”
In Texas it’s a state law forbidding anyone to drive past a barricade into a high water situation (flash flood); this occurs every time there’s a gully-washer esp in the Hill Country, the news helicopter covers it on TV as the firemen have to wade out on a rope and extract the driver/family.
Can be fined up to several hundred dollars, I think there’s some prosecutorial discretion involved in the amount, however I don’t think the law is intended to recover all the specific expense involved (ie pay for a couple dozen firefighters and their vehicles, maybe a police helicopter).
It’s intended to deter. Before the driver makes the quick dash around the barrier and tries to get across the flowing water, he/she is intended to think about how this action may cost severaol hundred bucks.
It’s tempting to try it if you’re in a hurry, however they say that even as little as six inches of rapid high-volume water flow is enough to make you very sorry.
I’m interested in more info links and comment about how this dynamic of evangelical Protestant Korean missionary work has seemingly sprung up in US combat zones. Are these people (both the missionaries and their pastoral supervisors back in ROK) thinking that they can operate openly under the shield of US military power in the same way that they could for example back home?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems clear that these missionary groups are taking advantage of weak Islamic pro-US governments to slip in missionaries disguised as “aid workers”. Afghan government and their counterpart coalition and US military/diplomatic authorities need to get their act together and then they both need to lean hard on the Korean government to stop this traffic, since it has now become an active hindrance to the war effort.
I hope profoundly that this is happening behind the scenes as we speak.
oh, please, Zonath.
Be honest to yourself.
Going into a burning house was one argument.
Proselytizing not being aid was another argument.
deal or no deal, this is a miracle to be thankful for. Especially if there was no money involved like both sides claim so. We’ll see. Neither has a strict incentive to lie faithfully.
My faith did not change because of this event.
Let’s be honest. I thought they were all going to die.
Weren’t you, too?
But, because you think a ransom was paid, there is nothing to be thankful for.
Okay.
the lesson from this is that voluntarily or involuntarily, there will be a significant reduction in ethnic Korean missionaries going to Afghanistan.
Now if we could just get them to stop coming to my apartment.
Uhm…. Where are you going with this? I’m afraid your special Wjk Logic(tm) (Bravo Your Life With WJK Logic!) has lost me. Are you saying that we shouldn’t question the reasons why people go into danger zones before calling them idiots? What about real aid workers? Are they idiots? What about the troops who don’t really have a choice? OMG, wjk!!! I don’t believe you would call the coalition forces in Afghanistan idiots! Man, whatever happened to ’support our troops’?
Your argument was that there are people here saying that it’s somehow ‘wrong’ for people to try and convert Muslims. I’ve heard a lot of ‘they should have known the risks’ and ‘WTH were they thinking going into a war zone to play prophet?’… Again, if they really want to convert Muslims, let them do so in LA or London — I don’t think you’ll hear as much as a peep out of anyone here should they decide to do so.
But hey… if you can actually point to a post that really says something akin to ‘OMG! These x-ian fools should be punished for attempting to convert our Muslim brethren (praise Allah)” then please do show it to me — just a hint though: The rest of us can’t see things that exist only in your imagination.
Where’s the double standard then? Or is this just the standard Christian Persecution Complex rearing its ugly head? Be honest to yourself now… It’s not a hard question.
shut up, Zonath.
there’s plenty of evidence on this page alone that shows there is deserved criticism for these folks, saying that they did not offer aid, they offered proselytizing, and proselytizing is not aid.
and, you’re putting words into my mouth.
You should know quite well that I believe in the following.
George W. Bush is one of the greatest leaders of the world of all time.
Keep in mind that nobody liked Winston Churchill until the Germans were attacking Britain, and the British even voted him out of office after World War II. Bush is that kind of leader.
I believe US military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan is primarily responsible for the fact that all 50 states are free of terrorist attacks since 9-11-2001.
Iraq war was a necessary war, and at that time the only people against it were Russia, France, and China in the UN security council. Their reasons? Curtly, Russia and France had oil contracts. For China, US military presence is a military threat to the east and the west. Go figure why they’re so busy using American Born Chinese to extract as much military secrets as they possibly can.
Lastly, I am a believer in conservative economics.
Also, I believe that the only way for South Korea to walk into North Korea in the next 100 years with the least military and economic losses is to make many, many, many Kae Songs. Even Lee Myung Bak, my current hero, believes this.
and Zonath, a kid running into a burning house to rescue his mother is different, clearly, from a fireman going in with all his gear.
Following your train of thought.
Seriously, WJK… if you can’t handle a reasoned debate that calls you out on your bullshit, then please feel free to just ignore anything said. You don’t have to tell me (or anyone else) to shut up… it just makes you look like you have no case in the first place. And you’re still dodging my question with the Bush-loving… Where’s the double-standard you claim? I’m willing to wait… just be honest with yourself.
Absolutely. But since actually explaining this to you will probably cause you to miss the point (pull a wjk) or deflect attention with irrelevant statements (pull a wjk with cheese), I’ll just give you a general hierarchy (sorry, no pictures) and see if you can work it out.
-First responders/aid workers
-People with emotional connections with those in jeopardy.
-Christians and Scientologists who offer ‘help’ in order to get people to listen to their fairy tales.
There’s really nothing altruistic about missionary proselytizing, it’s extremely egotistical and self-serving… only Christians and Muslims seem to feel this great compulsion to do so, fueled by their own inner doubt; you’re never going to have a Taoist pounding on your apartment door or a Jew pressing a leaflet on you in the subway station. (There are rare exceptions in radical cults like the Hare Krishnas). Those who are solidly confident in their spiritual beliefs feel little compulsion to press them upon others… I don’t go around asking people “Have you heard about the San-shin, and how s/he wants your respect?”
Check out how the majority of Buddhists go about nurturing the slow growth of their philosophical outlook, with gentle humility and no urgent heroics or martyr-wannabe-complexes (since Ichadon, at least) 
Of course this overlooks the manner in which buddhism came from the west into East Asia in the first place, the growth of The Pure Land sect historically, and some of its contemporary offshoots. It’s also interesting that Korean buddhism more recently specifically adopted a proselytizing mission - albeit a rather mild one - in reaction to the colonial period activities of both the Japanese Soto sect and Western protestant sects and the postwar explosion of protestantism in Korea.
yeah, overlooks such details, as delving into the 3000 year history of such matters and all possible exceptions to the rules would be a bit much for a blog comment… I’m sure 500-page books have already been written on these topics.
Mr. Sanshinseon, there is no inner doubt among believers who have experience with the supernatural, believers who read their respective religious books, and believers who communicate with their respective gods on a daily basis.
Proselytizing is done because it is more or less a commandment.
Could you deny that there is almost zero growth in a religion with suppression of proselytizing?
Don’t people go to san shins and Buddhist temples only when they have an issue to resolve and pay money for those services, as opposed to going every week because it it is a commandment and pretty much required in the god-human relationship?
In a sarcastic sense, I suppose going to a san shin or Buddhist temples allows a person to be more efficient with their religious expenses.
without proselytizing, I foresee almost zero growth in the number of adherents to Buddhism and sanshins. But, I do not foresee a decline. They still provide the supernatural experience for a fee, and people will seek it, as needed.
there’s no doubt in my mind the Europeans have strangled their religious population by actively denouncing proselytizing after World War II. It is no secret that the evil empire used a major religious organization to promote their fascist beliefs. Why denounce a god after people used the god for their own agendas?
you find somehing unscientific about Jesus, but find san shins and Buddha images scientific?
another western hypocrisy.
No, it’s consistent, not hypocritical.
It’s not by will or attitude that one thinks Christianity is unscientific. One comes to believe these after the fact. If the facts pan out and it turns out Christianity is contradictory to what we know by fact, then we call it unscientific. We do so because that is what information shows. If on the contrary Buddhism as a literature proves to be ‘wise’ in that it is at least resonant with what’s known scientifically, it earns its badge as a ’scientific’ religion. There’s no double think, double standard here.
Buddhism isn’t scientific, of course, in the strict sense that it does not add to our knowledge of the world. And I don’t endorse it. But as an idealistic framework of some sort which is totally compatible with what we know emperically about nature, there’s a lot about it that I think is precocious especially considering how old it is. It’s “relatively” scientific.
#36 - You’re way off base here on multiple accounts, but let me focus on just one. You’ve drawn a false dichotomy between contemplative and active spirituality, especially in reference to Christianity. Throughout the history of Christian spirituality, the importance of both action and contemplation has been continually emphasized.
You claim that missionary activity isn’t really altruistic, that it’s “extremely egotistical and self-serving.” But a far stronger case can be made that an exclusively contemplative spirituality, focused on achieving personal enlightenment, is egotistical and self-serving. Don’t get me wrong, all those Taoist hospitals are doing a great job providing health care to the poor in underserved areas. Not to mention the yeoman work of Shamanist Relief Services in delivering aid to disaster-stricken areas the world over. And let’s not forget the Missionaries of Buddha caring for the poorest of the poor in Calcutta or tending dying AIDS patients in Washington, DC.
Your scholarship is commendable, but a little objectivity might do you some good.
Well, it’s how many angels/Buddha’s/Jinni’s can dance on the head of a pin time at the MHole…whee!
This was funny:
“I’m sorry about the two executed hostages, but they should have been aware of the dangers of going to a country where absolutely ruthless behavior is and has been the norm for decades.”
Oh, I’m sure as Koreans they have an excellent sense of this!
abcdefg, Christianity claims its origin from Judaism and thus it claims origin from since the world began. Whether or not you believe that, all up to you, your freedom.
You take Darwin > Jesus.
Ok, fine.
I find it incredible that you would accept Buddhism over the religions of Abraham’s God, claiming Buddhism is more ancient.
Such utter nonsense and an example of the bias.
I seriously doubt you read the Bible or the Buddhist scriptures in making this claim.
And, the bias is evident in the fact that you are probably unwilling to dismiss the Old Testament as utter rubbish. Only the New Testament is utter rubbish, right?
All the time, people will say the Bible is a lie.
Nobody says the Torah is a lie.
That’s strange. Then, at least half of the Bible is true
Plenty of people say that. I say that, as well. The Torah is a lie.
> It is no secret that the evil empire used a major religious
> organization to promote their fascist beliefs. Why denounce
> a god after people used the god for their own agendas?
wjk, i think you should NOT talk about America’s Republican Neo-Cons and Evangelical Christians this way — it’s not proper, and many members of this blog will be upset with you for it…
Just let it be noted that in my #36 i did NOT say “Christianity is unscientific” nor that it is less “scientific” than any other religion. Nor did i drawn any dichotomy at all between, or even mention, contemplative and active spirituality, in the theory or practice of any religion. The strawmen are flying thick at the M-Hole today…
#46 - Missionary evangelization is not exhaustive of Christian active spirituality, but it is an indispensable component thereof. You denied that such missionary evangelization is altruistic and claimed rather that it is “extremely egotistical and self-serving.” I drew out the consequences of your statement. Not a straw man. Sorry.
You took another shot at those who seek to share their faith by suggesting that they are less than “solidly confident in their faith.” You then offered as salutary examples the fact that you don’t stump for san-shin and the Buddhist focus on contemplation. In all, you seem to have expressed a clear distaste for a major component of active spirituality (at least in the Christian tradition) and a clear preference for the contemplative as found in several Eastern traditions. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t just fling allegations of straw men.
For the record, I agree that the techniques employed by many groups to “spread the faith” are offensive, not to mention counterproductive. But you’ve painted missionary evangelism with far too broad a brush.
#45, Mr. Sanshinseon,
that was a nice one.
Although, I’ll say I don’t agree with it
USA is not an evil empire. Under true fascism, you don’t have the option to vote them out.
The will of the people decided the 2000 and 2004 elections.
However slight the margin was.
It also decided the 2006 elections, in a way I was more pleased with, m’self. Glad to see you’ve got a healthy sense of humor, wjk…
You’re right, the USA is indeed not an evil empire, nor truly fascist. That may have been the fuzzy intention of America’s Republican Neo-Cons and their religious allies, but they are far too incompetent and personally corrupt to carry it out. We must be thankful for that small mercy.
> Ut videam
> I drew out the consequences of your statement.
No, you took off with your imagination.
> the fact that you don’t stump for san-shin
That was intended as a joke, dude.
Unfortunate that you don’t have the good sense of our wjk…
> and the Buddhist focus on contemplation. In all,
> you seem to have expressed … a clear preference for
> the contemplative as found in several Eastern traditions.
> Please correct me if I’m wrong
You’re wrong, for the 2nd time. I never mentioned a “focus on contemplation” or “the contemplative” at all, nor anything related. Re-read what i wrote, and try to understand it.
> But you’ve painted missionary evangelism
> with far too broad a brush.
Yes. Again, it’s a blog-comment, not my PhD Dissertation, not even a newspaper-column… jeez.
#50 - sanshinseon,
You’re right. I read far too much into your remarks. Mea culpa.
Robert,
I’ve been clicking on the link to the article for 3 days, and it hasn’t worked yet. Please tell me that Naver took it down because it was untrue and even Korea’s bizzaro government wouldn’t really ask the victims to pay those expense.
dda,
I checked out that link you were kind enough to give me, but it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. No one suggested that they weren’t sent by a church or that they didn’t consider themselves missionaries. But the mission they were sent to preform was not street corner Bible evangelism. They were sent as aid workers.
It’s true, as Paul H. and Slim have here posted, that in parts of the world where religious freedom does not exist, missionaries are not allowed to openly proselytize. So they sometimes try and slip in under the guise of aid workers.
However, that’s not always the case. It’s not even ‘usually’ the case. If you’ve never been plugged into a church community (or planet earth for that matter) you may have missed the fact that Christians spend millions of dollars every year to send real aid all over the world. Sometimes it is, but it’s not always, or even usually, just a cover to get into the country. I can testify to this first hand.
So far no evidence has come to light that suggest this group of missionaries were doing anything other than aid work in Afghanistan (not that there’s anything wrong with that). So don’t just assume they were.
I think that a lot of people posting on this blog would just rather hate these people because they have a problem feeling compassion for victims. They’d rather think that everyone is just getting what they deserve, so that they don’t have to feel bad for anyone, ever, no matter how badly they’re victimized. It’s the fault of the Taliban who did the crime.
“Those who are solidly confident in their spiritual beliefs feel little compulsion to press them upon others…”
Spreading the faith is a basic tenet of Christianity. We are told to go out and spread the good word, that is God’s command. Nothing to do with being confident in our own faith.
“You’re right, the USA is indeed not an evil empire, nor truly fascist. That may have been the fuzzy intention of America’s Republican Neo-Cons and their religious allies, but they are far too incompetent and personally corrupt to carry it out. We must be thankful for that small mercy.”
Haha, good to see you’ve got a sense of humor, too, sanshinseon.
Then you didn’t read it. The 아프간 단기 선교 지원서 is an application form for short-term proselytism in Afghanistan. Nowhere does it say they’re going for aid, and the program, for selected fellows, is all about proselytizing.
The only evidence there is of their activities — pictures taken by themselves and posted on Cyworld — are of prayer sessions in mosques or other public places. No pictures of these fellows giving “aid”. Sorry, your religion may preclude you from seeing the truth — not surprising from a Christian — but these guys were *not* aid workers.
That’s because I am firmly plugged into Planet Earth™ that I have never meddled with the cuckoos with the Neon Crosses.
I don’t esteem Darwin much. Surprised? And my view of his work has little to do with my conclusions about Christianity. Indeed, my worldviews at large have little or nothing to do with Darwin, though I can’t see why any reasonable person would disbelieve this basic idea: speciation by (gradual) change to simple structures by natural selection.
Buddhism is a rational religion that espouses certain principles (naturalism and fallabilism) which makes it compatible with modern science, which automatically makes it better than Christianity which operates by ‘utter nonsense’ the likes of: Jew says X and X is true because Jew writes book that says X is true or that Jew is god (and that reader should be cautious of those who question X, Jew, or book by Jew), which makes it irrational and antithetical to science. Why wouldn’t I accept Buddhism over brainwash?
I’ve read nearly all of the NT and about 1/3 of the OT, which is probably more than you’ve ever read. As for my knowledge of Buddhism, it comes from secondary sources and from a few biologists, physicists, and neuroscientists here and there who every now and then claim that their latest works have expression in Buddhism or are reminiscent of Buddhism. Not that I’m ever impressed - remember, I don’t endorse Buddhism.
Wow, abcdefg, you’re right: that’s utter nonsense.
It also bears no resemblance to the Christian faith’s actual motives of credibility… but hey, it obviously works for you, right?
Oh please. I simplify but a full adumbration of the Christian (or Muslim) heart would have only taken me a few more sentences.
Offtopic, indeed. But on a somewhat personal note, I wonder who’s more
brainwasheddevout these days. Korean Christians or White American Bible-Belt Christians? Is it still the latter? Same, same? True, I’ve known many cool Korean Christians, those well educated ‘pomo’ guys who would go out to clubs after the Bible study. But sometimes I wonder. The lives of Korean Christians are usually quite wrapped around Christianity. To the point that it’s not unusual to hear a Korean girl expressing her dreams to marry a/the pastor. It’s like reading a 19th century novel of some kind where “pastor” = playa or love interest of the female protagonist. Kind of like Jane Eyre and St John Rivers or something. It’s really strange, and totally antiquated. Those Protestatant missionaries who had gone to Korea did a tremendously effective job.abcdefg, I read OT and NT approximately 10 times or more, and read it everyday.
by my guess, 80% of Christians do not do this.
What a tremendous waste of time.
Glad to see you and Ut patched up your differences, Sanshinseon, but I do wish to take issue with this statement. We can observe and describe behaviors, but as we are not mind-readers, we cannot be certain of motives. Buddhism teaches its followers to observe without judgment.
People may have different motives for doing the same action and it is impossible to generalize about people who proselytize. Some may push their religious beliefs to affirm them and inflate their sense of self-importance. Others may witness out of a sincere and compassionate belief that they are saving souls by bringing them to God. We can acknowledge different possible motives, but I don’t think we can presume or generalize about what inspired these particular adults to participate in this missionary trip.
just as a sidenote, after the first complete reading of OT and NT, I concluded this was such utter nonsense and the rules written here were, if obeyed in entirety would consume the life of a person.
Then, something happenned in an interval of several months, and I subjectively am quite certain of my faith.
the word is all nonsense without the spirit.
that is my conclusion.
the transition I experienced is unfortunately, not universallly experienced.
then, I turn to the predestination theology for explanations. Which in itself makes no sense and sounds like injustice, but who is man to tell a god is unjust? If you believe in a god, that is.
value the freedom of religion you have in the free world. Even God believes in free will.
(Back on topic!) The church that sent these people should pay the government back, IMHO, because they were warned not to go and told why but decided to go anyway, obviously engaging in religious activities that were of benefit to their church (there is more than a just little circumstantial evidence here of such!). Their actions have further harmed the interests of their country and the efforts of the international community, that is seeking to deal with the criminals that hide under the guise of being “Islamic”, in that country.
“Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.” describes it all nicely.
Reimbursement of airfare, transport, and medical costs are a pittance compared to the $20 million ransom alleged in this Reuters story on Yahoo:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....koreans_dc
According to the story, the Taliban is already making a shopping list:
A Taliban commander, speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said on Saturday: “We got more than $20 million dollars from them (the Seoul government). With it we will purchase arms, get our communication network renewed and buy vehicles for carrying out more suicide attacks.”
But since the Korean government is denying the report, either the Taliban informant is lying or something got lost in translation.
$20 million was the ransom.
Sooner than expected, but the word is out.
Still a miracle to me, but not to others as expected.
Hostages and the church should pay back the government as much as reasonable.
dda,
“[C]uckoos with the Neon Crosses,” indeed. Dda, I think you finally said what’s really on your mind. Your motivations seem to have nothing to do with the news. Since you hate Christian’s, I’m sure you would bad-mouth these missionaries no matter what the situation, even if they were hostages of the Taliban. Oops! That’s exactly what happened. Why don’t you get your own AK-47.
#64-
Wrong. The church group acted ill-advisedly. But it didn’t—it couldn’t—do what you claimed. At most, their actions placed the Korean government in the position of making a choice. The government had to choose between acting like a real nation-state (with the power and responsibility attendant thereto), or acting like a weak impotent client state. As the whole world is painfully aware, the Roh administration chose the latter.
It’s the Korean government’s response to this situation—paying ransom to the Taliban and dealing with them as a legitimate quasi-state actor rather than as the criminal thugs they are—that has harmed the interests of Korea and the efforts of the international community. And that’s why the international community is condemning the Korean government, not the church group. (In marked contrast to what’s happened on the Hole, where “blame the victim” has been the overwhelming sentiment.)