More stuff on the need to accept ethnic diversity in Korea, this time from the Korea Herald.
Interestingly, the Korea Herald editorial starts thusly:
Korea’s older generations had been taught to take pride in having an ethnically homogeneous fatherland. Racial homogeneity formed the basis of the 5,000-year history of the nation, which was interrupted for 35 years in the 20th century by the Japanese occupation. So, the national identity of the Korean race was emphasized as the source of power and spirit in the struggle against Japanese imperialism.
Now, this is questionable on two counts. Firstly, it follows the same logic reportedly presented by the Korean delegation to the UNHRC Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, namely, that the Korean concept of ethnic homogeneity and “pure-bloodedness” was born as a defense measure in response to (mainly) Japanese imperialism. The reality may have been more complicated, however — other factors included the popularity among East Asian intellectuals of European racialist and Social Darwinist thought at the turn of the 20th century (see also here) and the adoption of Japanese models by Korea’s post-independence economic and political elite.
But ultimately, the question of how the concept of Korean ethnic purity became an ideological pillar of post-independence Korean society may be irrelevant, since the supposed ethnic homogeneity upon which the concept rested might be complete myth… and a recent one at that.
One of the more interesting columns I’ve read since the UNHRC censure — and a lot of ink has been spilled on the matter — was one by the JoongAng Ilbo’s Lee Hun-beom that appeared in the Aug 20 issue of that paper.
Lee began by recalling a story from 1995, when members of Korea’s Hwasan Lee family were granted the same legal status in Vietnam as Vietnamese citizens. Why? Because the Hwasan Lee family are actually descendants of the Ly family, the ruling family of the Vietnamese Ly Dynasty (1009—1225). When the Ly Dynasty was overthrown in 1225, the royal family was massacred, but an uncle of the last emperor managed to escape, eventually landing in Hwasan in present-day North Korea. The Goryeo king conferred unto him a lordship and the clan name Hwasan Lee. Today’s Hwasan Lee family trace their ancestry back to this Vietnamese royal.
Lee Hun-beom points out that the Hwasan Lee family isn’t the only such example. The Gimhae Heo family trace their lineage back to King Suro of Geumgwan Gaya and his Indian wife. The Deoksu Jang family, meanwhile, are the descendants of Jang Sun-nyong, a Muslim Uyghur attendant to a Mongol princess sent to marry the the Goryeo king. Yi Ji-ran, a general who served as Yi Seong-gye’s right hand in the establishment of the Joseon kingdom and progenitor of the Cheonghae Lee family, was a Jurchen. Then there’s General Sayaga, one of Kato Kiyomasa’s commanders during the Imjin War, who liked Korea so much he decided to defect to the other side (bringing with him matchlock technology). He was eventually granted the Korean name Kim Chung-seon of the Gimhae Kim clan.
Lee says that the number of such cases is surprisingly large, and the national gene pool proves it. A Japanese study from 2003 revealed that only 40 percent of the Korean DNA is uniquely Korean. 22 percent is similar to DNA found in China, while 17 percent is similar to that found in Okinawa. This would suggest there’s a fair amount of common DNA between Korea, China and Japan thanks to brisk human exchanges that have been going on since ancient times. A Korean study turned up the same results.
“This is the reality of the ethnic homogeneity we’ve been so proud of,” wrote Lee.
Along the same lines, Go Gi-bok contributed to OhMyNews back in May a review of Park Gi-hyeon’s book “Immigrant Clans That Changed Our History,” which argues that the Korean “race” is essentially a big japtang, a mixture of different ingredients that developed over time a sense of unity within the big mixing bowl otherwise known as the Korean Peninsula.
The book apparently examines the stories of Korea’s many immigrants, including the ones mentioned above and a few others like Park Yeon, a Dutch sailor who was shipwrecked in Korea in 1627 but eventually became royal cannon maker and fought for the Korean side during the Manchu invasion of late 1636. But more importantly, the book notes that Korea used to play the role of sanctuary for peoples escaping war and natural disasters in China and Manchuria. In particular, floods of immigrants would come to Korea during chaotic period in Chinese history, such as the Three Kingdoms period, the fall of the Tang Dynasty and fall of the Sung Dynasty, and these immigrants had a great influence on the culture.
The Goryeo kingdom was especially keen on courting immigrants, a policy continued even by the rulers of the Joseon kingdom, who used immigration as a means to keep the Jurchen in line and protect Korea’s northern frontier.
According to Park, some 46 percent of Korea’s current family names are, in fact, immigrant names, and 20 percent of Korea’s population are descendants of immigrants from Manchuria, China, Japan, Vietnam, Central Asia, the Netherlands and elsewhere.
Of course, don’t tell any of this to the North Koreans, who ironically enough may be the biggest japtang on the peninsula, living as they do in a region that saw considerable migration throughout Korean history.



66 Comments
very interesting stuff.
this is slightly off-post because there is no historical content, but i’ve always found this wiki-page quite fascinating. has anyone ever met a Mr/Ms 누 or 즙?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_family_names
This is really interesting, although it would have been nice if there had been some historical context to back this up. Being a Korean myself, I know personally that my own family traces its lineage to Dae Jo-yong, the founder of Balhae. Oh, forget the Chinese (no offense intended) - I still strongly believe that Dae Jo-yong/Balhae was Korean, but he did marry a woman of Khitan descent (if I’m not mistaken).
I think that no matter what, whether we are ethnically homogenous or are a jumble of different ethnicities, Koreans all share on thing in common: a proud and stubborn heart (which can be both a good or bad attribute). I think that’s what’s most important: that we are all connected by love for our country and for our countrymen.
Aren’t the supposed ancestors of the “Korean people” in fact immigrants, from the Altaic Mountain region? Really the whole notion of what constitutes race or ethnicity is an artificial, man-made invention - with so little of DNA varying by race. The difference in DNA between any two individuals is vastly greater than between any supposed races of people. Race is simply a tool of political mobilization or exclusion.
I remember reading that the Shilla Dynasty was fairly cosmopolitan, with plenty of international commerce and a fair number of foreign migrants that contributed to the Korean gene pool. Hopefully present day Korea can adopt some of that openness to diversity. One wonders what type of country this will be in 2100, with the descendents of all the foriegn wives from Vietnam, China, etc. If they’ll be able to integrate, or, be excluded, as a type of underclass. What’s worrisome is the kind of exclusive clannishness, and also a kind of a class consciousness that permeates society here. I wonder how long it will take the new racial minority groups to organize politically.
#3, Yes, Shilla was in fact a very cosmopolitan kingdom. Shilla was a very strong trading nation. I believe that Shilla artifacts have even been found all the way in Afghanistan. Also, during the Shilla period, many foreigners, including Muslims, Uyghurs, Jurchens, and Arabs, came and lived in Shilla. However, unlike modern foreigners, these people from all across Asia were able to integrate into the Korean gene pool and become “one” with the so-called Korean race.
Perhaps ‘a lot of ink has been spilled on this matter’, but it isn’t dry yet. Where were these reporters last week, last month, last year? The KH pieces are simply a reaction to the UNHRC report, but the conditions upon which that report was based have existed for some time. So why didn’t they write these articles earlier?
There are some very dark Koreans (some due to working in the sun), some super white Koreans (may be due to whitening cosmetics), and others that look a hell of a lot like the Alaskan Indians. Actually if you have ever heard some of the traditional Korean chants, they sound eerily similar to the chants from the Northern, North American tribes.
As for Korean Comment “we are all connected by love for our country and for our countrymen”.
Please stop with the dog poo, Koreans treat each other (the ones outside their circle) like garbage. Just look at the behaviour of your ‘average’ motorist.
The average Foreigner is a higher quality Korean resident, than Koreans themselves!!! We don’t drive with such disrespect for others, as Koreans do, nor do we push and shove on public transport!
Yes, I do agree there is a common thread to what it means to be Korean. A Korean is someone who has been brainwashed, via education and the media, and lacks the gumption, to question all the garbage that is thrust upon them.
“Korean” is a prime example of a brainwashed Korean. Then again if I had been subjected to a life time of propaganda I’d probably be just the same.
Sorry dude, not trying to take the piss out of you!
Really good topic. Very interesting.
“Please stop with the dog poo, Koreans treat each other (the ones outside their circle) like garbage.
Sad, but somewhat true I think.
You can’t give somebody both barrels and then claim not be to proferring a pisstake.
Dyslexic proofreaders of the world untie!
Hey! I type the way I live!
Fast with lots of mistakes!
Well, it’s pretty obvious that Koreans aren’t as homogeneous as the racial propaganda states when you look at the wide variety of skin tones and facial features.
#6, “We don’t drive with such disrespect for others, as Koreans do, nor do we push and shove on public transport!”
I don’t know where you come from, but living in Chicago, I have most definitely encountered people that are disrespectful, and who “push and shove on public transportation”. I’ve heard that New York, L.A., and other European cities are worse. I have lived in America for four years, and I must say, Americans act no more or no less “barbaric” (if i may) than Koreans.
“Yes, I do agree there is a common thread to what it means to be Korean. A Korean is someone who has been brainwashed, via education and the media, and lacks the gumption, to question all the garbage that is thrust upon them.
“Korean” is a prime example of a brainwashed Korean. Then again if I had been subjected to a life time of propaganda I’d probably be just the same.
Sorry dude, not trying to take the piss out of you!”
Please don’t be racist. I know plenty of non-Koreans who are less level-headed than some Koreans. I like to believe that I have the “gumption to question all the garbage that is thrust upon me”. By “garbage”, if you mean the propoganda of Koreans being a homogenous ethnic group, I have clearly stated that I know and believe that Koreans are a melting pot of unique races. If, by “garbage”, you mean something else, such as learning to hate Japan and the USA, you will be surprised to find that more Koreans than you think do not oppose USA, but in fact think of them as a valuable ally (I think there was actually a blog on this, was there not?). Although the same cannot be said of Japan, many Koreans I know generally believe that Japan is a strong economic and trading partner, and is in fact a country that we should come to terms with.
But now, I’m rambling on. =D
Interesting how this thread started really well, with some good thoughtful comments - and then got derailed by an idiot @ #6.
Avtualy if you have ever heard some of the traditional Korean chants, they sound eerily similar to the chants from the Northern, North American tribes.
Could that be that east asians migrated to North America across the pacific or a (once-existing) landbridge to alaska? Thats actually the common theory on how the Americas got populated. The same with the south pacific islands. It certainly didn’t happen the reverse way, so its really irrelevent to the discussion.
As for Korean Comment “we are all connected by love for our country and for our countrymen”.
Please stop with the dog poo, Koreans treat each other (the ones outside their circle) like garbage. Just look at the behaviour of your ‘average’ motorist.
The average Foreigner is a higher quality Korean resident, than Koreans themselves!!! We don’t drive with such disrespect for others, as Koreans do, nor do we push and shove on public transport!!
Why focus on the negatives? For every example of ill-treatment, there are plenty of examples of Korean solidarity - you just need to look. Bringing up driving and pushing and shoving as reasons why Koreans aren’t worthy of the notion of being connected in any meaningful way is as juvenile as it gets.
As for: The average Foreigner is a higher quality Korean resident, than Koreans themselves!!!
Exactly what do you mean by “quality”? You sound like a racist git. You’d be better of joining the halfwit backslapping crowd over at occidentalism.
Couple of things. First of all, Korea is not a nation of immigrants like a U.S.A would be or even what France and England are becoming.
The history of immigration in Korea is extremely recent. The examples of the Ly Dynasty, General Sayaga, Queen Heo or even Admiral Chen Li’s son are exactly that- just examples. They don’t demonstrate that Korea is a “land of immigrants.” These people came into a land that is a sea of Altaic and Tungusic genes. Chinese being 17% of the Korean genetic makeup? Well, bear in mind that most northern Chinese have Xianbei, Mongolic and Jurchen blood in them due to centuries of invasions, this would roughly be the genetic makeup of Koreans also. This explains why Koreans look more like Northern Chinese rather then Southern Chinese. Anyways.
As for me, I think increasing the population outside of organic growth is necessary for a nation to be “great.” The Persian and Roman Empires did it through conquest, the Americans through essentially immigration (not the conquest of the native americans as they were virtually exterminated rather then assimilated anyhow). Thus if Korea, especially in light of its pathetic birth rate, wants to continue to expand and grow, or “be great” they need to be open minded to immigration.
Interesting blog entry. I might point out (if no one else has) that even the Dangun myth is a myth of mixing, no matter how one reads it.
One puzzle in the Korea Herald article (and others that I’ve read recently) is the tendency to conflate multi-ethnicity with multiculturalism. Korean could become the former without becoming the latter.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
While I am delighted that among other voices the Korea Herald is starting to speak out against the problems of racialization in South Korea (while keeping in mind that its English language readership probably does not constitute the ideal target audience), this editorial still reflects some tired and mistaken notions.
Firstly, although I have mentioned this before, the canard about the “5000-year history of the nation,” is surely a fictitious boast borrowed (stolen) from the Chinese, who themselves when pressed can only honestly count some 3200 years of history since the invention of the crudest turtle shell writings. While ethnicity is usually based on shared history and myth, we need to keep the two separate. What happened before written records is not technically history at all; it is archeology — or in this case just an empty boast that refuses to die. But since this mantra gets repeated often enough, the people in both nations surely accept it as truth. But at least the Chinese are smart enough not to put distinctly Korean symbols on their own national flag.
Secondly, there is nothing “rather abstract” about this virulent Korean racial nationalism — it is blood-based — and specifically exclusive. While the assertion of national identity as a raction to Japanese colonialism is understandable, the persistent notion that Koreans constitute a unique “race” different from other Asian neighbors is more at the root of the problem. Merely teaching “from an early age that all races are to be treated as equal” without doing away with the fiction that Koreans are somehow a different species is not going far enough in this age of globalization. The whole notion of “race” (and its parallels in “minjok”) needs to be deconstructed in South Korea.
Thirdly, the notion that “the increase [of foreign blood non-Korean-races] was so fast…” sounds overly alarming and ignores the fact that this was largely the result of Koreans choosing to marry non-Koreans, for whatever reasons, including globalization, opportunity, and the reluctance of Korean women to live as traditional farmers’ wives. There are perhaps other areas of society which also need reform. But if this was indeed “too fast,” should we then conclude that it must be slowed down? If these people already make up “over 1%” then who do we blame?
#16 Uri Onara - very well stated. You get my vote for intelligent comment of the day.
And speaking of “deconstructing the whole nation of race in South Korea” it’s worth taking a second look at #12 by “Korean”, who states:
“Please don’t be racist. I know plenty of non-Koreans who are less level-headed than some Koreans.”
This statement implies that, yes, in fact, Koreans constitute a singular race. Continuing…
“I like to believe that I have the “gumption to question all the garbage that is thrust upon me”. By “garbage”, if you mean the propoganda of Koreans being a homogenous ethnic group, I have clearly stated that I know and believe that Koreans are a melting pot of unique races.”
Now, the claim that Koreans are a melting pot of unique races. Not only does this contradict the earlier statement, it rests on the notion of “unique” races - a notion which is itself a fiction. Or have I missed the whole point of this discussion?
I mention this not because I want to point fingers or belittle “Korean.” Rather, I think his somewhat confused, conflicting logic is representative of the larger problem in Korean society touched on by Uri Onara.
In general I’ve found it a common for people to believe in some form of racial purity in Japan, China and Korea. With it being so bad in China, I vividly recall sitting through a discovery channel documentary showcasing a prominent Chinese anthropologist (backed by the communist party of course) going on about how Java Man was the distinct sole ancestor of all Chinese, and how the human race split at that time.
#2, damn right, being proud of one’s country is a good thing, and the way to do that is just as you describe, not the belief in some fictitious genetic homogeneity myth.
#6, that’s quite a stereotypical rant you have there. Personally I would rather drive in Seoul than in DC, LA or Houston even, and the worst drivers I find are people like you who endlessly bitch about Koreans driving habits (which are pretty docile IMHO), then when the situation suits them declares “when in Rome…” and precedes to make a even greater ass of themselves weaving in and out of traffic at 130 kph and running red lights etc….
Java Man => Peking Man…. sorry
captbbq: I was that too. It almost seemed as though he was trying to present a new ‘out of africa’ theory; everyone else is out of africa, but the chinese are out of china, seemed to be what he was getting at. Would that mean the Chinese are not a different race, but a different species?!
This was a really interesting post. Thanks so much!
So how much of Japan is comprised of Korean DNA, I wonder?
Relatively speaking Korea IS homogeneous. Second of all, fixation on race is not a Korean thing. From my experience, it’s a wide spread Asian thing. Talk to an asian about the “peoples” of asia, to a Chinese, Korean, or Japanese person. You’re likely to get highly technical anthropological jargon about genes and phenotypes in response. Asians are most certainly believers of race.
And despite all their pretentions to being part of a multi-ethnic nation, (Han) Chinese don’t seem to have advanced much from racialist constructs, being as aware of race and ethnicity as Koreans (albeit not in such a way that these constructs translate as readily to politics). But on this point I’m only relaying informal, personal experiences. There is a strong “race” consciousness that I’ve gotten from pretty much all asians.
# 22,
I would kinda second that, but I’d also say that the average Japanese person is a bit more apathetic then the average Korean and the average Chinese person is a little more accommodating then the average Korean. Every Asian group has their radicals, but concern for ethnic purity is a little more mainstream with Koreans. Let’s just face it, China IS a very diverse country and they just had to live with the reality that the Emperor is a Mongol (Yuan Dynasty) or a Jurchen (Qing Dynasty) or a Turk (Wei Dynasty). The Japanese? That fire seemed to burn out decades ago and it’s hard to pin any burning interest onto the psyche of the average post modern Japanese citizen (with the exception of those wackos that are in those black vans with the loud speakers).
I think it’s human nature to claim belonging to a certain group. People of each nation typically boast in one way or antoher of some racial pride…thats just the way it is.. I think most people who have lived in Korea can agree that Koreans are especially proud of their people. One pure race or not, the people of this peninsula are a very close knit society. Every society has its weirdos and people you would rather not call your own…but i think it might be safe to say that Koreans are a very well bound group of people…oh and…i dont think we need DNA studies to show that Koreans are not a pure race… ride the subway for a day in Seoul and you are bound to see a Korean who looks like they’ve got some euro, japanese, or even chinese in them…that happends through what was said with the Vietnamese and other immigrants and also because of war….just think about what is going on in Iraq..dont think that there wont be any half “american” half iraqi babies being born..
23
Concern would be proportional to homogeniety. So I don’t take the differences you’ve noted to be problematic to the view I proposed above.
re: #16
Try to move away from the European conception of race where one starts with macro groups like “negroid” “mogoloid” “caucasoid” etc and goes from there. Imo, “race” is a folk concept in that it’s something which people simply intuit based what is objectively observable to them — physical differences (or patterns of such) that exist among populations of peoples. Deconstructing race, as you say, therefore isn’t going to expunge race as a concept. It may correct or refine the more sophisticated notions some people may have, but facts are facts. In other words, getting Koreans to scrutinize their notion of race will only move them around in a circle by 360 degrees. We shouldn’t be criticizing the fact that Koreans have a sense of their minjok.
Actually, the organic (population) growth of North America, particularly the US, was fueled in two distinct phases.
In the first-place, in the seventeenth, eighteenth and early nineeteenth centuries, it happened the Old-fashioned way. The initial population explosion in North America was distinguished by the astonishingly prodigious fecundity of the original Anglo-European immigrant settlers, among the birthrate relative to the “Old World” was on a scale similar to that today between the Third and Developed Worlds (and, in fact, if I remember correctly, exceed today’s Third World birth rates on an absolute comparative basis.
It was only after the mid-19th century, after the Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clarke expedition had awakened people and they’d had a few decades to absorb the lesson about the size of the undertaking to settle the continent before them that the US opened the door to more or less unfettered immigration.
ps: Koreans don’t believe they are “unique.” They do strongly identify with Central Asians, Mongolians, and Siberians.
And Wangkon,
That’s true, I’ve seen, in relation to Japanese people or happa children of mixed Japanese and Caucasian (or other non-”mongoloid”) ethnicity. But I don’t see this attitude levied in the direction of other Asians. Japanese are still very much race conscious as much as Korean in terms of Asian peoples. Indeed, two pictures I see frequently at anti-Korean Japanese sites includes pics of the DNA double helix, and this:
http://img442.imageshack.us/im.....981xc8.jpg
(Above pic first appeared in relation to Japan’s Jomon vs Yayoi heritage studies but has taken a new slant since then…)
#27,
They do? Then you can come over here and try explaining that to my Korean co-workers. Just last week I tried and they expressly denied any such talk as “nonsense”. Of course I’ve also found Koreans who identify with aboriginal Americans…. just goes to show how pointless broad statements like that are.
How do you say “unique” in Korean and how did you manage to work that into a conversation about race and Koreans with your co-workers? Sorry but I can’t imagine it.
I’ve seen Koreans associate with Americans too — Did you hear about the ondal that was found in Alaska or so recently? But while this association isn’t prevalent, are you saying you haven’t seen Koreans express some sort of bond with Mongolians in some way? We can’t be unique if we believe we have brothers up north.
#27 - odd photo, its interesting that the Japanese people who put it together would pair an pretty Japanese girl with a relatively plain Korean. I think the reality is quite the opposite - Koreans, from my observations, are generaly a much more handsome bunch of people, and I actualy put this down to more diversity in their bloodlines. Of course, thats just speculation.
#28, captainbbq, maybe your co-workers just don’t appreciate getting badgered about race by a foreigner. Not many do. My girlfriend is Korean, and she’s well-versed in the Mongolian heritage thing, both from her parents and her students. One thing that she says is a clear link: the fact that both Mongolian and Korean babies are born with blue marks on their bottoms. My friend (caucasian) recently had a baby with his Korean wife. The baby also had a blue bottom, and he also told me his wife had said it was common with Korean babies, and had something to do with Mongol ancestors.
BTW, here’s a realy cool site to check out, re the differences between Chinese, Korean and Japanese looks:
http://www.alllooksame.com/
Is it really true about the blue birth marks on a baby’s bottom or is it just a myth? I’ve heard it claimed here in Korea, but my brother’s (English, French blood) and his wife’s (Hungarian or Polish, I think) kids also have these markings, though I have heard there may be some connection to Mongolia in Eastern Europe (since the Mongols conquered some parts of it at one point). It seems common for babies born in this part of the world, but when white parents far from Asia start claiming they have Mongolian blood, the more sceptical I become of it.
“Personally I would rather drive in Seoul than in DC, LA or Houston even,”
I’d love to hear why….
# 30,
I have to second your observation. In Southern California you get a pretty darn good sampling of people from all over Asian. You got Chinese (heavy tilt into Taiwanese and Hong Kong) in San Gabriel Valley, Japanese in Costa Mesa and South Bay, Vietnamese in Westminster, etc. Compared with other asians, I think Koreans, bear in mind ON AVERAGE, are generally a handsome group of people. Now, my disclaimer here is that this is definately not a scientific observation based on any statistical data, it is merely my humble PERSONAL opinion/observation. You can choose to agree or disagree.
Anyways, another non-scientific opinon/observation is that there is little physical diversity among Koreans compared to other asians. I’ll tell you that 80% of Korean women in the generation in their 20’s and 30’s are about 5-4 to 5-6 in height, have B-cups and similar bone structures. A natural c-cup Korean girl? Rare, I think the fellas know what I’m talking about. Alright, I’m obviously pointing out the physical characteristics that catch my attention the most…
In my opinion, you’ll see A LOT more diversity with other asians. Japanese girls are typically shorter then Koreans. For whatever reason, Japanese women’s legs are on the stubbier side. Skin tone and bone structure varies a lot more. May have something to do with their integration with the Ainu population. I’ve seen Japanese look very Korean and some look very Philipino.
I was told in health class that it was called the “Mongolian Spot” and was widely known to be present only on Mongolian and Korean babies just about on the tailbone. My buddy’s kids had them (half-Korean).
# 28,
I’d have to say that most Koreans are indifferent to their supposed relation with central asians, however the ones who believe there is a relationship are pretty strong in their convictions.
Once I was at the Korean Cultural Center in Los Angeles when they had the Koguryo exhibit and I was speaking to this ajomma who had a white boyfriend (both were in their 40’s I believe). This ajomma went on and on about Mongolians and how they were the same people as Koreans, Han Min Jok, and all that crap. She also brainwashed her white boyfriend too and he started to lecture me about how the Japanese were actually Koreans, etc. Picking a debate with me on East Asian history is not a good idea. However, I was polite with them and shut them down without embarrassing them.
Reminds me of the time when the Siberian/Scythian Ice Princess from the Altai Mountains was on exhibit and some crazy Koreans went all the way to central Russia in traditional shamanistic garb to worship and make offerings. I’m sure the Russians were totally weirded out by that whole thing.
Anyways, there are a lot of Mongolians in Koreatown nowadays. The ladies? Very sexy, you are one lucky man Robert. Well, I am very much against trying to impose your own constructs on another people. Koreans that say that Mongolians and Koreans are the same people need to understand that talking such nonsense diminishes the proud history and achievements of another people. Koreans, of all people, should at least understand that. However, I will say that the Mongolians that I did see do have more of a Korean look then the average Chinese or Japanese. The Mongolian parking attendants in Koreatown love to play along and get buy as Koreans until they need to respond with more then a phrase, which at that point they are certainly “outed.”
@27
I remember seeing that on the discussion page of a wikipedia article regarding the origion of the Japanese people (without the helpful captions of course). A Korean editor said that picture was racist and implies that the Japanese people look better than the people from the continents. I remember thinking, “That guy’s overreacting. Besides, aren’t the Jomon people SUPPOSE to look more caucasian than the Yayoi people?”
Maybe he wasn’t totally overreacting, heh, based on how the picture’s used. I do wonder if the anti-Korean Japanese are admitting that they are shorter than the average Korean with that picture, like that age-old Korean stereotype of Waenom. And if they are admitting the Yayoi people are Korean, aren’t they practically admitting they are a good part Korean? A milestone in an increasingly friendly Japan-Korea relationship!
@32
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Spots
I don’t think Mongolian spots indicate a Mongolian origin. It’s just named after them.
@35
About that story about the Ice Princess and the Korean shamans, do you have a link? Sounds interesting.
Andre Schmid’s “Korea Between Empires, 1895-1919″ is a good book which covers the development of Korean national consciousness. He looks closely at Shin Chae-ho’s influential mix of the concept of minjok with the Tangun myth.
http://koreaweb.ws/ks/ksr/ksr04-03.htm
“So how much of Japan is comprised of Korean DNA, I wonder?”
The Japanese genetic makeup is roughly 25% Korean, 25% Chinese, and 50% other indigenous tribes/races. I wish I had the source, but I’m afraid I don’t have it. :/
# 33, Slim
Because they don’t drive as recklessly here. I think this pervasive view that “Traffic in Seoul is bad” is an extension of the “Asians can’t drive” prejudice and the fact that, in particular, Americans just have to blame everyone other than themselves while driving. In the US there are a lot of prejudices, “why do they let these old people drive?”, “what are these women doing on the road?”, “damn these huge trucks, they think they own the road”, and let’s not forget the 16 year olds running around in their rice-burners with goofy shaped molded plastic attached to them thinking they are bad-ass. Here there is little of that. Old people by and large didn’t grow up with cars and don’t need them and/or are too scared to drive, Koreans must be 19 to drive (or 20, it’s always changing). They don’t rely on tractor trailers either. So who can we bitch about? Well, there certainly are plenty of Asians around, aren’t there?
Yes, what a convenient and ever-present scapegoat. It’s never the middle class white guy driving the sedan. Unless you check the blotter for the USFK… Or maybe we can just split them off into another stereotype, the “$500 hoopty driving 미군”.
In LA, people tend to drive on each other’s asses while going too fast, DC, well the beltway doesn’t move, and inside the city is a nightmare, drivers are very aggressive, and Houston, well, traffic can be just as slow as the 경부고속도로, but it’s so damn spread out it takes forever to get anywhere.
To be fair I will credit Americans with a much healthier respect for the need to wear seat belts, but this doesn’t appear to make them drive any safer, and let’s not forget, no one is shooting each other over here when someone cuts them off.
It is a persistent, pernicious and ridiculous canard, yes — I preach against it in my Tourism lectures and government work — but its modern form originated with and was borrowed from the Japanese fascists, no?
I think you are quite misunderstanding history here — I sincerely doubt that placing those Oriental-philosophical symbols on the Korean national flag had anything to do with, or is a sign of, a lack of intelligence.
““So how much of Japan is comprised of Korean DNA, I wonder?”
The Japanese genetic makeup is roughly 25% Korean, 25% Chinese, and 50% other indigenous tribes/races. I wish I had the source, but I’m afraid I don’t have it. :/”
But, what if the 25% that you claim is Korea is in fact Japanese? That would means that 25% of the Korean DNA is Japanese, wouldn’t it?
This is getting a bit off topic but, my god, what a load! I just spewed coffee all over my keyboard.
Among developed nations Korea has the highest number of pedestrian fatalities in the world. They are number three in automobile accidents. The rules of the road are not enforced, they’re merely suggestions. People blowing through red lights, changing lanes without even looking to see if the other lane is occupied, making right turns from the left lane, making a right turn into a main thoroughfare without stopping to check for oncoming traffic, using the right hand portion of the street, (not even a lane), to pass, cars driving quickly to get in front of you only to make a right hand turn, and this is standard operating procedure for the majority of drivers. Korean roads are horrifying.
What are you saying, Koreans don’t tailgate? Are you kidding me?
The US has tractor trailers. They do take up space which makes them difficult to get around. But they don’t drive erratically. If they do they’ll quickly perish.
If you’re saying that Korean roads are safer than Mongolia or Vietnam, I’ll grant you that. The biggest problem in the US, and it only takes a few drivers to make the situation dangerous for everyone, is people driving who come from countries where moving violations aren’t enforced. You pull some of these stunts in the US and, yeah, you might get shot. More than likely you’ll get people pressing their horns at you until their arms ache and then giving you both barrels of the middle finger.
I didn’t even mention the sociopathic bus drivers who are running late on their routes or the taxis or the freakin scooters. How about the guys driving fifty kph down a narrow street where children are playing?
“But, what if the 25% that you claim is Korea is in fact Japanese? That would means that 25% of the Korean DNA is Japanese, wouldn’t it?”
I don’t “claim” it’s Korean - it’s a proven fact. And if you say that the “25% that is Korean is in fact Japanese”, that wouldn’t mean that the Korean genetic makeup is 25% Japanese, it would make it 100% Japanese, and that’s certainly not so. At least that’s what I think you’re carrying on with.
AH - I still wish I had the source proved the genetic makeup of modern Japanese people.
Sorry about the triple post but I gave you plenty of time to respond.
In the States, if you make a right hand turn through a crosswalk when there is a single pedestrian in it, even if the person is on the other side of the street, you get cited. Three moving violations and you lose your liscense. IT’S ENFORCED!!! Not to mention that the insurance companies will make driving cost prohibitive. People obey traffic laws in the States because they have to.
Without traffic law enforcement you get anarchy. You get the streets of Seoul.
How in the hell did we go from the original thread to talking about driving?
Maddlew: Totally with you on this one. There is simply no comparison between driving in Korea vs. the U.S., and the statistics bear that out. Zooming past kids in the street? No problem. Pre-school busses doing excessively fast maneuvers on tiny streets? Yep. Dump trucks plowing through red lights and merging wherever and whenever they want? Uh huh.
After driving in Pusan for three years I went back to the U.S. and got the finger and horn a couple of times before I realized I had to de-Koreanize my driving.
#41
Captbbq, don’t dismiss Korea’s dire traffic safety situation because of supposed prejudice.
#44, 45
Maddlew, you are absolutely correct. Statistics back it up. (And, in case anybody would like to give the population density/crowded roads argument, why aren’t Japan’s stats nearly as bad as Korea’s?) Careless driving and little or no enforcement of traffic laws are two probable explanations, not to mention general attitudes about safety.
Can anybody please enlighten me as to where it is the norm in North America for motorcyclists to verbally abuse pedestrians - including children - when they don’t clear a path on the damn sidewalk?!
A way to amuse yourself when a Korean tells you that Japanese culture and people orginated in Korea:
You: “Ah! So you guys are the same! Like cousins! Japanese culture and Korean culture are the same! They are you! You are them!”
Korean: “Err, no, not the same at all”
You: “So you’re different? The Japanese are different than you, their culture is unique from yours?”
Korean: “Not unique! It comes from us!”
You: “So, is Japanese culture the same as Korean culture, or unique by itself?”
Whereupon your conversation partner’s head explodes. It cannot be admitted that Japanese culture is unique, since that implies something positive, and it cannot be admitted that Japanese culture is the same as Korea’s, which the “their culture came from us” clearly implies.
Actually, if 25% of the Japanese genome is made up of ‘Korean DNA’, that just means that, on average, 25% of the genes commonly found in Koreans are also found in Japanese…. So it’s about 25% both ways, since people have the same number of genes across the board.
It also isn’t really that proper to talk in terms of ‘Korean DNA’ or ‘Japanese DNA’, since plenty of people from both sides of the Sea Which Must Not be Named have gone swimming in the other side’s gene pool throughout their respective 5000 year histories. It isn’t as if exiles from Baekjae or wherever planted the seeds of culture on the Japanese isles and then the two countries ceased having (ahem) ‘cultural exchanges’ (wink wink) for a couple thousand years…
Daytona Beach during Bike Week.
How did driving get into this topic?
Anyways, SomeguyinKorea, stop banging your head against the wall. The genetic study you refer to was commissioned by NHK and a clip is available for all of you good people here:
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1168
In my opinion, I think the even the 25, 25, 40% figures this study claims is just too darn clean and diplomatic to be accurate. I think they are playing with the numbers as some genes determined to be “other,” native, Korean and Chinese can be interchangable depending on interpretation. The key word being “interpretation” here.
I’m more partial to Jared Diamond’s analysis here:
http://discovermagazine.com/19.....roots1455/
“So it’s about 25% both ways, since people have the same number of genes across the board.”
…25% both ways? I don’t think that follows.
Anyway, I thought the girl on the right of the pic I posted up is pretty hawt. Beauty is subjective indeed.
I’m reminded of an idea I sometimes entertain. Ever wonder why some Japanese people just love them their Yonsama? I imagine, it’s almost as if the Yayoi deep in their veins are engaged in mystical battle overriding the Jomon. Hanryu in Japan is genetic Yayoism.
Let’s say that people have 100 genes each… Let’s also say that in a particular group (group A) 25 genes are also common to another group (group B). So, between any two individuals taken one from each group, chances are that they’ll share at least some of those 25 particular genes. This is of course a bit of an oversimplification, but it does go both ways.
Take it a different way: Each gene has about a 50% chance to get passed on from parent to offspring. Between any two grandchildren of a particular individual, chances are that they share about 25% of their DNA — any gene found in one individual has approximately a 25% chance of appearing in the other individual.
So yeah, unless one side of the equation has a few missing (or extra) chromosomes, that 25% figure will go both ways.
Agree with all this, but I am right now in the #1 city for road-related deaths, aka Saigon, and this is a sight to behold! Traffic here is hell on toast. Red lights are merely Christmas-themed street decoration: scooters and other two-wheeled vehicles don’t even slow down at read lights. I spent most of yesterday on a scooter, as a passenger, and what I saw was terrifying. Doesn’t make Seoul any better of course [and who remembers the ad in the metro that said something like "전세계 자동차 생산율 3위, 전세계 자동차 사고 1위"?],
Korean @46, Zonath @51 has it pretty close. Yet there is a big problem with putting percentages on DNA makeup : its a falacy. How can the japanese be 25% chinese and 25% korean, when the chinese and koreans intermingled, and when indigenous japanese tribes also sent dna back to korea? And when there’s domestic differences, within said countries? It’s impossible to assign percentages of people from one modern day nation in relation to another: you have to go back to root peoples and chromosones, and examine what they have in common. Not realy simple enough for nationalists, unfortunately.
The fact is, Korean and Japanese people share alot of common genes, mainly from stone-age peoples migrating from the north and west down the Korean peninsular and onto the Japanese archipeligo. To claim that one side “came” from the other is naricistic garbage (and yet I hear it all the time). Peoples from outside the area left their genetic footprint on both lands.
Japanese people come from a mixture of the Yayoi people and the Jomon people. The jomon people were on the islands up to 30,000 years ago (actually, at the time some suggest there was a landbridge to Japan), and are not related closely to Koreans. Where they came from is anyone’s guess. The yayoi emigrated from the mainland, and Koreans also share some of their genetic makeup from this group.
Both groups, in the beggining, came from elsewhere and both groups recieved genetic makeup from elsewhere, and from each other, over the millenia. Naturally, the Japanese recieved less new DNA since anyone wishing to pass it on had to first sprinkle it on the Korean peninsular. A good example: the Mongol invaders, who made Korea a dependency. I don’t imagine they were chaste during this time, but they never made it to Japan.
Wangkon936, perhaps this was what the deluded couple you “shut down without embarrassing too much” were on about.
#49: Reminds me of taking a cab once in Tokyo. The guy in his dainty white gloves is patiently waiting through short cycles of the right-turn light as I watch the yen tick upward at all too fast of a rate, and I’m thinking, “Jesus, in Korea this guy would’ve made the turn already and I’d be a pint of Guinness richer.”
55 (and 57)
Your post seems to be misrepresenting the biology. Do you understand what genetic researchers look for when they determine this stuff? I’m no biologist, but as I recall they look for markers from paternal lineage (Y chromosome) or the maternal (mitochondrial DNA). These markers are not like alleles for hair color that can be present grandchildren at 25% from an individual grandparent or something. They are there if you’re descended from a line or they are not if you’re not from that lineage. Either/or.
If Japan is said to be X% “Korean”, the reasoning here is demographic rather than ideographic. Markers that are prevalent in one country has an expression of a certain number of individuals tested in another country and show at a rate of low X%. From this logic, it wouldn’t follow that Korea would also have markers at X%. The point of calling such markers Korean in the first place is that those markers are present at some percentage > X%.
I’ve seen many conflicting and various studies dones in this regard. Lots of them group Koreans and Japanese together. Others show Japan related to Tibetans. It’s problematized because, I don’t think, these studies are systematic and comprise a large enough base samples of subjects for results to be meaningful.
#59 - Mitochondrial DNA is only one part of the picture. After all, since it’s only passed on through the mother, it does have the tendency to exclude quite a large sampling of women (women who only had sons, for example)… Did the 25% figure come from a study of mDNA or from nuclear DNA, I wonder?
Anyhow, it really doesn’t matter that much… The gene pool of the human race is so muddy that it’s more or less pointless to classify oneself as 25% anything, since to do so relies on quite a few (probably fallacious) assumptions. I was simply pointing out that it’s fairly paradoxical to claim that the Japanese are 25% ‘Korean’ without also accepting that Koreans are 25% ‘Japanese.’
#59, which is why I said “you have to go back to root peoples and chromosones”
Here’s a good link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2_(Y-DNA)
Everyone loves to mention statistics but no one cites any.
I don’t know what Korea you guys are living in, but it sounds like Itaewon. Outside of that I see police officers doing their job pretty regularly, at least they are on the road and not spending all their time at Krispy Kream. I see them pulling over people quite frequently in fact, bikers not wearing helmets, misuse of bus lanes, etc…
Keep in mind Korea actually has pedestrians. Where outside of cities like New York, most Americans get in their cars to drive 200 meters. Many sprawling cities in the US don’t even bother with crosswalks, and motorists won’t stop for people at them anyway (crosswalks are just lines painted on the roads after all!). Growing up in sprawling Virginia city, crossing the street was playing frogger.
wedge, #48, perfect example of what I was referring to in #28, you seem to be driving just as badly as everyone else here, and blaming it on them.
Madlew, #47, I’m sure there is some states that do that, after all there are fifty and the driving laws are all different, but for that matter my Korean wife was absolutely shocked last time she saw vehicles rushing through a crosswalk with pedestrians in it, and where do you suppose that was? Gate 52 Yongsan. All three were “foreigners”. Think about that, why would Koreans be shocked about seeing that when it happens all the time here? The answer: It doesn’t, only we think it does because foreigners perpetually bitch among themselves about it until it become reality, then foreigners use it as an excuse to drive badly themselves where other foreigners see this and think “see there it is!” Self licking ice-cream cone.
Yes Korea used to be that bad, a long time ago, that when all this got started (something had to start the cycle). Especially if you talk to Koreans who left here 20 years ago and come back, you’ll find the difference is night and day.
# 44 and all the rest: all of this stuff I see State-side, and per capita, I see less of it here.
BTW: A Korean slang term for the bus lane on the 경부 is “SOFA-lane”, because they see US service members driving in them all the time seemingly with impunity, while the Koreans who try it suffer a different fate in the form of a mailed fine to their home address. In reality its the same, but I’m just showing you guys, the perception on the other side is a mirror image of what yours is… I hope it will cause some of you to realize theres a middle ground.
A large, and in some categories OECD-leading, number of fatalities occur in the “middle ground” between third world traffic safety and first world traffic safety in which Korea is still stuck despite improving stats in recent years. The only foreign motorists I’ve ever heard speak positively about the roads of the ROK were from China or were Westerners who said they enjoyed the nearly universal freedom from rules and etiquette once they got used to it.
Regarding driving in Korea. Having learned my driving in Puerto Rico, and having driven throughout Western Europe, Mexico, Central America, Australia, and most countries in South America, I find driving in Korea to be somewhat tame. Yes, watch out for motos on the sidewalk, and always check both all mirrors and give a visual glance to the right before turning, but other than that, most Koreans value their cars enough to try and avoid a collision. Yes, there is the idiot 10 to 15 percent out there, but none would match the antics you can see in a Puerto Rican traffic jam anywhere on the island. The only drivers I’ve seen wilder are the truck drivers in Bolivia and Peru when they’re hopped up on cheap liquor and “piztchu” (coca leaf). Korea does have among the highest accident mortality rates among the developed countries, and they need to work on it, but theya re far from among the world’s worst. Just wait until all those Chinese are earning enough to purchase a car.
My 2 cents worth re driving (thanks to austin for bringing it up)-
I’ve been riding a motorbike here for more than 3 years. I’ve had my share of near-accidents, and for certain Korean drivers are alot worse, on average, than those in the states or Australia or Japan. But go anywhere in south-asia or China for worse, and for truly inspired dose of recklessness on the road, try driving through Italy sometime. Nowhere touches Naples for dangerous drivers IMHO.
Can’t say I notice much in the way of law enforcement on the roads in Korea, thus, I have broken laws that I would be very wary of breaking back in Canada, such as pulling a U-turn in broad daylight in the middle of a street as I’ve seen Koreans do, whereas in Canada, I pulled an illegal U-turn on a quiet street at 2am with nary a car in sight (other than one in the distance) and was pulled over by that distant car. The cop must have just pulled out of the Tim Horton’s 6 blocks away at the time, unfortunately for me.
That being said, I enjoy driving in Korea and don’t find it too difficult at all (figuring out directions to someplace is another story) and as lirelou says, other places are much worse. China’s roads still have less cars than Korea, but are a nightmare and it’s even worse elsewhere.
One Trackback
[...] Koehler from Marmot’s Hole introduced Lee Hun-beom’s article which traces the history of migration in Korea. The article challenged the belief of ethnic Purity in Korea. Share [...]