Are language difficulties and conflicting Romanization systems holding Korean tourism back? [Korea Times, HT to reader]
It’s the Language, Stupid?
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on August 9, 2007 at 8:46 am, filed under Asides, Ministry of Barbarian Affairs. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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118 Comments
No. Other countries with less English signs / facilities / amenities still have tons of people flowing in for tourism. Tourism in Korea doesn’t fly because there is nothing THAT interesting that can prevent you from going any other country before. If you have already seen Japan, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, India, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Egypt, Jordan, the whole Europe, Brazil, Argentina and Central America, THEN you may have a reason to go to Korea (since there may be nothing else a little more interesting left).
Let’s be realistic: what can attract you to Korea? The culture? No! The food??? Hell, no! Shopping? No, damn expensive! So, Korea (before all those options above) why?
Max is correct.
Korea has the tourism appeal of an unflushed toilet. This country is simply an uncomfortable amalgam of the worst aspects of China and Japan.
All this talk about tourism sounds to me like someone is using Koreans’s concerns with international image to encourage them to continue spending time and money on learning English, which will ultimately benefit Korean corporations. After all, aren’t most tourists who come to Korea Chinese and Japanese?
The food is alright. Don’t be a hater.
The English-language press here has gone on about this for years and nothing changes. Of course, that same press puts out horribly written and edited crap every day, so maybe they should clean their own house before criticizing others.
Korea is a comfortable place to live in, but not much of a tourist destination. Someguy’s right I think, tourism should be geared more to Chinese and Japanese visitors.
The article states:
“Many foreigners here complain of an “anti-foreign” sentiment. “Anti” may be a strong expression, but it seems that in Korea there actually are “foreigner-unfriendly” aspects _ systems that can make foreigners’ staying here convenient are not well prepared, for both tourists and residents.
The No. 1 difficulty would be the communication problem.”
This reminds me of the old “Korea must be hard for you, taxi drivers may be rude sometimes” coming from Koreans. An attempt to avoid a problem by admitting to it on a smaller scale.
The No. 1 difficulty, Kim Ran, is the all-too frequent street/restaurant/public encounters a western tourist has with scornful, mocking, or hostile Koreans. The taunts of children and teens, who have absorbed the lesson from Korean media and elders that foreigners deserve no respect whatsoever. Staff at restaurants giggling and treating you like you have 2 heads and horns before you have spoken a word. Korean men who ogle, leer, and make suggestive gestures to any non-fat western women below 30.
And that’s in Seoul. Get into the provinces, and there is a whole universe of bigots, hicks and boors to discover. Anyone who doesn’t believe me can go live a week in Gwangju, Cholla.
Anyhow. The KNTO could do a lot better complaining about the demonization of whites, blacks, Japanese, SE Asians, errr…every human not blessed with Korean birth, in the Korean media. It has over the years created an atmosphere of hate and disrespect that takes its toll on tourism far worse than misspellings.
Previous commenters are right (even if rude, in a couple of cases). The problem is not the lack of clear signage. It is the lack of interesting things for the signs to describe. And the lack of books and things that romanticize the good things that are here. And the lack of understanding Korean have (especially in the KTO and Ministry of Culture) about what is interesting about their culture to others.
But I do think things are changing. The Korean Wave might be overhyped nonsense, but it could provide the foundation of a more interesting pop culture industry (provided it keeps improving).
As a Japanese, Korea is the most friendly country towards Japanese in the world. I think many Japanese who have visited Korea will agree with me.
It is strange, it is an anti-Japanese nation, but the people are realy nice and friendly towards Japanese in general (I know there are exceptions).
Especially when you go to the countryside. Their hospitality is just amazing.
Another “Why isn’t Korea a tourism magnet?” story. *Yawn* followed by a slur of “Korea sucks” comments. *Yawn*
typo: slur slew
tomojiro, I know two Korean guys with Japanese girlfriends and my wife (Korean) lived in Japan for a year. A lot of Koreans are mature enough to ignore the anti-Japanese nonsense.
Seems like many Westerners are put off by the gruffness of a lot of Koreans that they interpret as rudeness.
Michael
“A lot of Koreans are mature enough to ignore the anti-Japanese nonsense. ”
I agree with you. Especially the younger generations. You can observe it also here in Tokyo. Younger generations of Korean are apparently more confident and thus have less complex against Japan (and the rest of the world).
Generaly speaking, aside of politics of history, the relationship between both nations are quite good.
Tomojiro,
I would suggest the reason Koreans are friendly toward you is there is still a widespread perception that Japanese have plenty of money and are thought of as big spenders.
And you are only a half devil as opposed to us white/black/south Asian fellows who are full-bore.
Come on red sparrow, we’re talking about Koreans who go to Japan and have relationships with Japanese people–it has nothing to do with money.
Sure in Namdaemun Koreans see Japanese tourists and think of money, since they are there to spend it.
A lot of the talk here about “anti-foreigner” Koreans is overblown–what specifically do Koreans do to non-Korean tourists that is so horrible? Schoolkids yelling “hello” is nothing like getting mugged in L.A. or having your luggage stolen in Europe.
“I would suggest the reason Koreans are friendly toward you is there is still a widespread perception that Japanese have plenty of money and are thought of as big spenders.”
Certainly not a problem about money (well for shop owners it would be money, of course. Like any other places on this planet).
One thing is sure. maybe there are still anti-foreign aspects in Korea, but it is far better compared to 10~15years ago. In 5 to 10 years from now,it will be more better, I guess.
Well, the only thing that has changed is that politics in Korea has changed from a very pro american stance to an anti-amercian stance I think.
“The No. 1 difficulty, Kim Ran, is the all-too frequent street/restaurant/public encounters a western tourist has with scornful, mocking, or hostile Koreans. The taunts of children and teens, who have absorbed the lesson from Korean media and elders that foreigners deserve no respect whatsoever. Staff at restaurants giggling and treating you like you have 2 heads and horns before you have spoken a word. Korean men who ogle, leer, and make suggestive gestures to any non-fat western women below 30.”
When my friends and family members have visited here, they generally take these events - most of them seem to be more benign than malicious - as part of the experience. Over the space of a week or two, the odd “hello” or “miguk saram” can strike people as amusing (in a goofy sort of way) or a nervous attempt at friendliness (which sometimes it is). After living here for more than a decade - and now generally being able to understand in greater detail what is being said about me behind my back or to my face - I probably have less patience for this kind of stuff than tourists do.
“Korea has the tourism appeal of an unflushed toilet.”
It isn’t nearly as bad as that. Most people I know who have come to Korea for a few days or couple of weeks have had a really good time.
@6
I’ve been in this country for about two and a half years, have been all over, in many different situations, and I know what kind of treatment I should expect to get in different places. With the exception of a few isolated incidences, most of which probably weren’t related to the fact that my blood is not at all Korea, I’ve been treated outstandingly here. After reading your sad sad story I wonder if you’ve really ever stepped foot in Korea. It’s not a Utopia here, but like wookinpanub said, stop being a hater. Or maybe you have some complex and ranting here is therapeutic?
Wookinponub, I’m not a hater. Explanation I heard for the hot spicy food and some other “weird” dishes is that they recall the tough times, the need to be “extreme”, etc. .
Just figuring out why other countries that suffered the same or more than Korea changed their food (changed = mixed, adapted, combined, enhanced), while Korea seems to stay on that “extreme sensation” so far. Go to any other Asian country and have a ball on lemon grass, nice ginger, black pepper, etc. Besides the flavor. Or are you going to tell me that most of the Korean food doesn’t stink?
There are regular eatable things, I’m not saying that there aren’t. But 80% or more is too much difficult to bear. Again, food is not something to attract people to Korea (like Middle-East, Latin countries, Japan, etc.).
@18
Probably they like the hot stuff because hot food is somewhat addictive. Spicy food triggers an endorphin-releasing pain response. Spicy food in Korea, though many of them don’t realize it, from what I understand, is from European influence. European traders (I heard Portugese, but not so sure about that) gave the Koreans some peppers or pepper seeds some years back. That is why the very very traditional food (and some of the oldest kinds of kimchi) are not spicy at all… it was before the introduction of the hot stuff.
Why Koreans seem to think that no foreigners can handle spicy food though… I can’t understand that. “It’s not too spicy for you??!” No. As a North American who ate plenty of good Mexican food growing up, I can say that it’s the Koreans who really don’t know what truly hot food is.
So here’s the rhetorical question–how would it sit with the Korean psyche that something they pride as being distinctively Korean, i.e. their food, is strongly influenced by the oppressive outsiders? One more kick in the Han?
cmm, I think most people in Korea already know that gochu was never a native to Korea. I mean, most people know that Kimchi wasn’t as red in the past. You’re welcome to verify it by asking around.
That said, whites and blacks in America truly do not handle the acquired taste of hot, spicy food very well.
I was at this Hungarian restaurant and he brings out a spicy red sauce. Cautioning us, to use only a little, it’s extremely spicy.
Ha. Me and my friend loved it and used sufficient quantities of it.
He asked, it’s not too spicy for you?
Well, I could either laugh at the utter absurdity of such a statement, or else point out a half-dozen counterexamples that would disprove it and that you would just blissfully ignore. I think I’ll just laugh instead.
What surprises me is how many people come here that do not know how to cook food for themselves. They rely on vendors and restaurants for sustance and bitch constantly about the food.
People who can make a decent meal for themselves don’t really have food complaints (other than lack of proper ingredients) because they can apply a DIY to their predicament.
maximus seems like nothing more than a weak stomach waygookin who reinforces the “foreigners don’t like spicy food” stigma.
Yup. It doesn’t stink.
What once was attractive about Korea is going away.
That’s cheap stuff…
Most SE Asian tourists are going for cheap stuff.
hotels
food
site seeing
scuba diving
women
whatever
Korea doesn’t offer that.
#8,
That’s because Koreans hate Japan from a macro sense. They do love Japan from a micro sense. It’s the symbolism and attitude of the government of Japan they despise, but they are practical enough to know that there is much to admire.
“Koreans hate Japan from a macro sense” No, the Korean gov’t and media scapegoat Japan for political ends, and some morons in the leftist teacher’s union try to keep the hate alive but most Koreans don’t give a damn about the Japanese gov’t. Nowadays it’s the Korean gov’t that most Koreans despise.
When I was in Korea last year I saw lots of tourists here. I saw a lot of Chinese people in Jeju do, Gyongbok Palace in Seoul and the Folk Village. I saw Japanese tourists at Lotte Hotel and the Coex Shopping center. I saw older Americans in the War History Museum. I’d imagine that the Chinese tourists were here to see the sights of Dae Jang Gum, the Japanese were here for cheap and easy shopping. Also, golf in Jeju do was cheaper than Japan, at least that’s what they told me. Americans were probably here due to the Korean War connection. I saw lots of Russians in Pusan. Don’t know why they were here and I didn’t ask them.
The Korean Wave is at low ebb at this time, but if it was consistently strong, then I’d imagine that there would be regular demand for tourism from Asian nations. I’d also imagine that Jeju do will continue to be popular with the Japanese. I’d say that the biggest challenge for Korea is to get tourism demand from Europe and America. Especially a challenge when you have Japan and China nearby. I mean, China’s got the Great Wall and the Forbidden City. Japan is Japan, the cradle of modern Asia and the first and foremost East Asian nation that comes to mind when a westerner thinks about the Orient.
What Korea has that China does not is a modern infrastructure and a small nation. It’s like this, if you had half a day, would you go to Disneyland or Disneyworld? You’d probably go to Disneyland if you have a day or so, but if you had a week, then you’d go to Disneyworld. Korea is a midget Orient you can tour in a week. You can see buddhist temples, modern cities, picturistic landscapes, intimidating North Korean troops peering at you through binoculars, and ancient artifacts in a relatively short period of time. Overall, Korea is cheaper then Japan.
@17
Cmm, I’ve been in this country for about 11 years, have been all over, in many different situations, and I know what kind of treatment I should expect to get in different places. I’ve experienced Korea as a late 20’s person, and through the range of my 30’s. So who has more experience?
Once in a blue moon I run into curious people such as you who express shock - shock! - that anything bad could be said about Koreans, who have treated them just wonderfully.
These people are usually one of the following varieties:
1 - corporate or embassy staff who live in a cocoon, Koreans around them treating them with fawning politeness. “Koreans? They’re GREAT! One is getting my coffee right now. When we go out for beer they tell me I am a genius and look like Bruce Willis!”
2 - those who are or appear to be older than their late 30’s. For these people, some measure of the Korean deference to age kicks in and while still feeling a general disrespect many Koreans will shut up or switch insults to their native tongue. (Not all the time though! I’m 41 and got followed and slugged in the chest on the subway last month by a drunken fellow because after unsuccessfully telling him in Korean that I wanted to read my newspaper and not talk to him, I turned and walked to the next subway car.)
3 - Those still mentally deep in identity politics from uni back home - “It is impossible for anyone other than a white to be racist. No matter what a Korean does to me, I will chalk it up to misunderstanding, or some other factor - “he was drunk”. Only we can be racist. We are bad, bad, bad! Poor slandered Koreans!”
4 - Those who come here, go into their hagwon, work, then come immediately home and watch TV, work on their Master’s thesis, read, etc. Once a month or less they are escorted by coworkers for dinner and beer, then go home at 10:30 thinking they have seen the real Korean nightlife. They end up meeting a total of 14 Koreans in their “about 2 and a half” years here, and declare those 14 to be excellent people. They are effectively utterly isolated from sustained, daily interactions with a variety of Koreans.
5 - Are working in a hagwon in a village of 150 people, where the locals take care to treat you well so you don’t bolt for home, like the last 5 teachers.
So which are you? I expect sputtered denials, but I would but you are one of these.
Cmm, I have no particular complex except normal resentment. I have had a boss ask me to sign a document promising not to date Korean women. Men in restaurants address my Korean female companion with degrees of hostility ranging from cold stares to “If you were my daughter I’d break your legs!”. A random attack from behind by strangers in a bar district at night during the 2002 TankGirls hatefest. An attack on me on the subway by three drunken strangers which wonderfully ended up in a police station where I was told I must confess to attacking them or be deported, whereupon I had to pay THEM money. My prospective parents-in-law demand an AIDS test before permission to marry their daughter was forthcoming. Teenage kids sneering hellos in tones so contemptuous you can only laugh in amazement. And then, scores and scores of friends and acquaintances who relate story after story of the same things.
No complex. Just an open-eyed look at reality, and a very slack afternoon at the office today to let me write all this.
# 25,
Maybe hate is too strong of a word. Maybe the term “historical grudge” is a better word?
Gosh, people take such a dogmatic attitude here that it’s hard sometimes to have a conversation where both parties can learn from each other. Too many people here think they are freak’in geniuses.
Hugh, you’ve had some really shitty experiences in Korea and I’m sorry to hear that. However, it’s still anecdotal and subjective. I’m “none of the above” and personally know many, many more none of the aboves. The non-Koreans I know are office and factory workers from the U.S., Canada, Europe, Japan, China, Pakistan, etc. None of us has had more than some trivial, annoying interactions. In the States I was shot at once, mugged and had my car stolen. Nothing remotely like that has happened here. My wife (Korean) and I actually get compliments about being a couple — it’s a little embarrassing because we’re just ordinary people. I’m only writing this because I’ve got nothing to do in the office at the moment
and I’m truly sorry that you’ve had a rough time here, it’s just that it isn’t a common experience in my opinion.
WangKon, you want a conversation? Don’t be an ass and write shit like “Too many people here think they are freakin’ geniuses.” I won’t bother replying to you again.
Well, glad to hear you’ve had smooth sailing, Michael. I would mildly question “not one of the above” - if you were hired in from outside you are almost certainly mid to upper level in a Korean company, because they wouldn’t bring in foreigners for the lower levels in most cases. Being married, sounds like you are a bit older, too. Factory workers having only trivial problems with Koreans? It’s not what I’ve heard and read, but since you know some personally and I don’t I’ll take your word on it (non-sarcastic).
The foreigners I’ve known have been lots of English teachers, like perhaps over a hundred that I’ve talked to in any long way since coming, and a handful of low-level office guys who left teaching (me). A whole lot of them have a whole lot of stories like mine, is all I’m saying.
People compliment me these days sometimes on my wife and kid too. I’m older, and get messed with way less now as the age thing kicks in and I am less threatening. And yet, others mutter unpleasant things or give long serious stares to us. Would you be able to understand those things, I wonder?
#29,
Absolutely fione by me.
The way you frame your viewpoint, you leave no room for alternative opinions. You are just so freak’in sure that your way is the right way. Thus, how can you have a “discussion” with someone like that???
Hugh, don’t get me wrong, I know some people who have had trouble in Korea like you, but just a few, and the majority of the people I know, the worst they’ve gotten is an ignorant comment or two. I only know a couple of factory workers to be honest and they’ve said their experience has been “great,” so either they’re BSing me or it’s true. Of course I’ve heard the horror stories of abuse, on the other hand. And I understand enough Korean to know when someone’s talking trash to me.
I’m measuring physical abuse or attacks against staring contests or the occasional drunk guy muttering something, and no one I know has had that happen. Again, sorry that you have had trouble here.
I don’t really have a point
except to say sure, Koreans are not always foreigner-friendly I know, but it isn’t at a German skinhead level where foreigners are attacked on the street all the time.
Good luck with your family here.
Hugh’s got good points. Michael’s got some good points.
If you don’t have anything bad to say about Korea, then you either haven’t lived here very long, are in a bubble (see Hugh’s points at #27 for a primer, but not a complete list), or not in reality at all.
But just because you have bad things to say or bad experiences doesn’t mean that they have to weight on your opinion of Korea as a whole. Instead, take these things in stride and remember the things about living here that make us happy and want to stay.
Some people get less shit than others. Some people don’t get bothered at all and get the glitter feelings from every Korean they meet. I’ve seen it a couple of times. The problem with these people is they refuse to consider that there may be other people who don’t fit the “Happy Meal Foreigner” mold/idol worship that a lot of Koreans carry.
I doubt that Michael has spent any more than a few seconds thinking about how others that do not live up to the “Korean standard” are being treated or perhaps having a worse experience. Why should he?
When you’re in a bubble, don’t poke the sides or you end in the uglier world the rest of the people have to live in every day.
I find comments like
to be a symptom of that denial.
I’ve had compliments from Koreans while with a girl plenty of times. But it’s along the lines of foreigner worship and can’t be taken out of context and warped into any ‘all Koreans love my interracial relationship’ kind of talk.
Quite simply put: all Koreans are not cool with it. And it’s gonna be a while still before anyone with a Korean can walk into a crowded room of strangers and not instantly be put on that pedal of idolism or disgust.
I’ve also been attacked for walking with (but not even touching) a Korean girl by someone who felt (violently) that I didn’t have any valid reason for being here or following my friend down the street. This also cannot be taken out of context, it is a singular incident involving one drunken lunatic with baggage and confused idealism about what foreigners are doing.
Anyhow, this shouldn’t become “The Travails of Poor Hugh”. I’m fine, stronger for it all and making satisfactory coin.
My original point was, the Korean tourism authorities should stop focusing on minor annoyances like the spelling on signs, and work on deeper-lying unpleasantries for tourists. Attempting, and it would be a huge job, and take time, to persuade the Korean media to tone down the sensational anti-foreigner stories would be a good start.
‘As a Japanese, Korea is the most friendly country towards Japanese in the world. I think many Japanese who have visited Korea will agree with me.’ tomojiro
May I ask you if you liked Korea?
LOL foobat. What 12-step program should I join to see the reality of Korean evilness?
Read again my friend. I think I qualified my opinion plenty of times recognizing Hugh’s experience and others. You’re a bit contradictory in your assessment anyway.
Honestly, after travelling and living in Europe, Asia and the U.S., I can say Koreans can be very rude in public (although it’s getting better), they can be xenophobic, they can be childish, but they certainly aren’t nearly as violent toward foreigners as in other countries, and there’s institutionalized racism, but it’s no worse than in Japan (not to excuse it).
I was attacked in the States while not walking with anyone. I was shot at once and had my car stolen. Based on this, I should say the U.S. is the “uglier world,” far uglier than Korea. But I wont generalize from my own experience. The consensus is what I said above, most of the non-Koreans I know have not been attacked here. If you have evidence that Koreans physically brutalize most foreigners, bring it on.
Yeah, back to the OP, Korea does need to undo the chauvinism and xenophobic attitudes if it wants more (and repeat) tourism. And clean up the trash, and get the goddamn scooters off the sidewalks.
Koreans seem to be divided on most things but they seem to find unity in the us against them mentality. I agree the overall impression one gets from the Korean media is foreigners are bad. Yet, Koreans are told time and time again how wonderful and kind Koreans are. It may be hard for Koreans to accept but it is not a friendly place for non koreans. If by chance you are a non korean man with a Korean woman it can go from sneers to violent attacks. If you speak Korean you can usually avoid being attacked but you also hear all the racial slurs directed at you. For those who speak Korean, try getting around in English, see how rude people are to you, then try it in Korean. It’s night and day. For those who do not speak Korean be happy you do not understand all the school kids swearing in Korean at you. Although often, if you listen you can hear them saying puck you. So Koreans do not have to be friendly to foreigners, just not so rude would be a start. Then you are stuck as a foreign tourists, why go to Korea, except to say you have been there.
Wow, Hugh, that’s rough dude. I sure never got dissed anywhere near that bad, no matter where I was, what I was doing or whose hand I was holding.
Speaking of self-appointed geniuses, WangKon, weren’t you the one who so condescendingly ended a comment last week with “You all just got a lesson in M&A 101″?
LOL #37 about the motorscooters - definitely one of the most unnerving or even terrifying things in Korea for tourists/newcomers.
I remember my mom and aunt visiting and literally fleeing into stores in fear hearing the motor roars behind them. When you’ve been here a while you know ‘just keep walking straight and they will avoid you’, but it is a terrible thing for tourists, at least they should ban it in Seoul and Cheju.
I have lived in Korea for 14 years and the worst that has happened to me is a bunch of school kids in jeju do wanted pictures.
It used to be said if you ventured to myongdong, kangnam or shinchon or a lot of places away from itaewon you would be stared at in restaurants, walking down the street but not any more.
I hear a lot of stories that people get berated while being out with Korean girls or told to fuck off by a group of guys walking down the street but it has never happened to me .
Hey everyone in the Philippines speaks English but I damn sure would not walk around Manila even Makati by myself after 8pm.
The first thing that struck me about Korea was not the lack of English signage or that the locals were giving me the cold shoulder but rather that Korea is a dirty country. I’m not going to get in on the waegookin’s life debate, because it’s been great for me.
But the trash. Every ditch, every potted plant, ever nook and every field is festooned with the leftovers of a country that got rich quickly and didn’t know what to do with all of its extra stuff. Maybe it’s only noticeable to me because I come from some lonesome stretch of road in Canada, but even in Canadian cities I never remembered seeing this much junk.
It makes me depressed.
#41 there is an exception I have heard. Koreans do not get too upset if you are with an ugly girl.:)
#40 If you think motobikes are bad in korea, check out hanoi. Makes Korea seem like heaven.
“may i ask you if you liked korea?”
Definitly! People were nice and food was great. 12years ago, when I visited my friend who was an exchange student and stayed there for one month, there were some tensions but the people were generaly very nice. But at that time I recognized that the nationalism was very strong, too strong, I suppose (today, when there are quibbles between the J government and K government about Dokdo for example, the words can be very strong and violent, but you don’t have to fear physicall threats, that was a bit different in the mid ninties).
But apparently that has changed in these 7,8years I guess. Still the nationalism is strong, but my impression is that the korean are far more relaxed than in the 90ies, and more confident.
“may i ask you if you liked korea?”
Definitly! People were nice and food was great. 12years ago, when I visited my friend who was an exchange student and stayed there for one month, there were some tensions but the people were generaly very nice. But at that time I recognized that the nationalism was very strong, too strong, I suppose (today, when there are quibbles between the J government and K government about Dokdo for example, the words can be very strong and violent, but you don’t have to fear physicall threats, that was a bit different in the mid ninties).
But apparently that has changed in these 7,8years I guess. Still the nationalism is strong, but my impression is that the korean are far more relaxed than in the 90ies, and more confident.
Why do the “pussy paternalists” only protect the sanctity of the good looking? Sounds like discrimination to me.
Hugh, Sounds like your experiences were 50% rougher than mine have been. But I have the Korean-style adjeossi “war-face” that is not so estranged from my (unfortunate) German genetics.
[I can't use foobat ID at home, but it's me]
Michael I read again. And again. You still strike me as bubble-happy. And saying the US is far uglier than Korea lends a lot of credence to that feeling.
Contradictions… maybe. Fast cut & paste will do that.
I don’t have “evidence that Koreans physically brutalize most foreigners”. I don’t think anybody does. I believe it’s been noted before on this blog, that the Korean government doesn’t even keep track of those things (please someone correct me if I’m wrong though).
What kind of evidence would satisfy your skepticism? Police photos of me with black eyes and blood all over my face? Or maybe a YouTube video of some ESL newbie being tooled in Hongdae? That’s the only kind of “evidence” you’re likely to get a hold of unless you’re willing to take personal statements like mine and Hugh’s with some merit instead of meandering on about how great your experience (is) has been.
Of a hundred or so people I’ve met and talked with in Korea, I’m the only one I know that has been attacked. It doesn’t happen to a lot of people, I think. Some of us are incredibly unlucky.
#42
McGenghis
The trash doesn’t make me depressed, I’m too busy trying to ignore the deep rank stench and suppress the vomit to let the sight of trash piled high and wide in a pool of glistening “orange juice” get me down in the blues.
From #6:
I lived in Gwangju for a year. And local politics aside, I found Gwangju residents to be very, very friendly and enjoyed both the city and the surrounding region. Jeollanam-do is still probably my favorite place in which to travel.
Now, if you want a “whole universe of bigots, hicks and boors,” you go to Gyeongsangbuk-do. I spent my first three years in Korea there, and found the experience so unpleasant that I if I didn’t have to work in Seoul, I’d still be living there.
I don’t mean to question the stories told by some of the commenters, but I wonder sometimes how it is that it seems so many people have had so many unpleasant experiences with the locals here.
#49
‘I don’t mean to question the stories told by some of the commenters, but I wonder sometimes how it is that it seems so many people have had so many unpleasant experiences with the locals here.’
appropriately put, i should think.
regardless, you guys are some funny puckers. i usually enjoy reading the comments as much as, if not more than, i do reading the actual story or article that started the whole thing. i haven’t run a comment in a year or so, but i couldn’t resist after some of the good stuff meted out today…
well done, all!
Korea is a good place to live, but a bad place to visit, which is the exact opposite of what it was in the 1970’s and early 80’s. In the 1970s, Korea was cheap, the people were more curious about and friendly with foreigners, and the signs of real Korean traditions and culture were commonplace. By the 1990s, Korea had become expensive, foreigners had become a nuisance, and Korean traditions had been forgotten, ignored, or remade into cold tourist attractions.
There is not really much to see in Korea. Korea’s Hawaii is not Hawaii, Korea’s Venice is not Venice, and Korea’s Disneyland is certainly not Disneyland. The lack of interesting tourist attractions is one of the reasons Koreans offer tours to such places as steel plants and shipbuilding facilities. How many people what to travel to another country to see a steel mill? Yes, Korea has natural beauty, but it is often spoiled by a number of things, including cheap-looking structures that do not blend in with the natural surroundings.
The interesting things in Korea are really only its people and culture, but the people are not as approachable as they used to be and the culture has essentially been forgotten or turned into cold concrete tourist attractions.
Koreans are just kidding themselves when they try to blame their lack of tourists on street signs. Yes, tourists who do come to Korea may find language to be a problem, but what about the tourists who do not come to Korea. Are people really staying away from Korea because they fear a language problem or are they not coming to Korea because the “sparkling” lights of Seoul are just not enough to attract them?
Korea is no fun
> motorscooters driving on the sidewalks
> at least they should ban it in Seoul and Cheju
It IS banned, nationwide. But as with so much else, there’s no enforcement…
#43 Kwon
“there is an exception I have heard. Koreans do not get too upset if you are with an ugly girl.:)”
Nice one
“I don’t mean to question the stories told by some of the commenters, but I wonder sometimes how it is that it seems so many people have had so many unpleasant experiences with the locals here.”
Going by the comments on this board, I’m not at all surprised by the number of foreigners who have a difficult time with the locals.
The last thing I want to see in a foreign country is all signs in English.
“that said, whites and blacks in America truly do not handle the acquired taste of hot, spicy food very well.”
Dude, white and black Americans (mainly the ones in the South) eat some of the spiciest food in the world. It’s a very important part of their culture.
NEITHER!
The fact that there’s worse than Seoul doesn’t make it right, either…
I have had, in the 12 years I spent in Korea, lots of bad experiences, àla Hugh, and worse, and most of them were actually related to the fact that I am fluent in Korean — most but not all. I have been attacked several times, in the 90s, by drunk and sober people for no other reason than being white. I suspect the sober assailants were psychologically unhinged, to some extent.
I also ran into the classical white-man/Korean-girl race problem, and some of the fights that ensued could have been avoided if A/ I hadn’t spoken Korean, and B/ none of the participants had had alcohol.
I spent some time inside a police precinct, answering questions by a cop, following a complaint filed by an asshole who’d attacked me. The fact that nothing ensued [the complaint was 'lost' by the cop] is mostly due to a combination of lucky shots: the asshole was unbearable, even to the cop in charge; I could state my own version of the facts without the uncertainty of translation/treason by a third party; I had back then already spent enough time in Korea that I had a policeman or two in my social network.
Things have improved I think, but there will always be incidents, and unless you know how to play the game, the foreigners will most often get the business end of the stick.
Over the last 2 summers I have noticed that travel within Korea (outside of Seoul) has become outrageously expensive. Generally, prices for lodging, food, etc. are higher than Seoul, and the quality is far below that of Seoul.
It seems that the tourism “industry” is content with the fact that they can do the minimum, charge the maximum and not have to worry about repeat business. There are always enough tourists to create the demand. Every island, mountain, hill, town and beach is “famous” for something.
The lack of Western tourists in Korea is due to a combination of factors. First and foremost, there really isn’t anything that interesting or intriguing about Korea when compared to the other destinations in Asia. China, Japan, Thailand and even Cambodia have far more to offer than Korea. Let’s face it, there just aren’t many world renowned attractions in Korea. Certainly nothing that someone sitting in Toronto, London or Chicago would be willing to travel halfway around the world to see.
Then you have the cost. Korea has become one of the most expensive countries to visit not only in Asia but the world. It’s hard to find a decent hotel for under $120 a night in Seoul but you can find an abundance of nice hotels for $50 a night in Bangkok, Manila, Cambodia and even China. Japan is costly but it has the attractions to draw visitors. Most of the world knows about Mt. Fuji and Ginza but few have ever heard of Mt. Sorak and Apgujeong Dong.
Next you have the difficulty in traveling around. The domestic airport schedules are a joke. There is only one flight daily to/from Seoul to/from Taegu and/or Pusan. Those of us who have been here awhile can navigate the KTX easily but can a first time tourist from France do the same? Probably not, nor would he want to.
Combine those factors with the unappealing food (to most Westerners who aren’t used to fermented veggies and soybean paste), language barrier and indifferent demeanor from the locals and Korea becomes a hard tourism sell in any Western country. If the prices for everything in Korea keep rising, look for the Chinese and Japanese to stop coming as well.
I advise you to check online those things before making such blunders. There are 20 flights a day to Pusan, and as many back, on KAL. Probably just as many on Asiana. I used to fly a lot within Korea, and while there were just a few flights a day to some destinations, Taegu included — more than one anyway — KAL and Asiana fly to gahdfershaken places like Yangyang or P’ohang…
Hello, Marmot. He said:
“I lived in Gwangju for a year. And local politics aside, I found Gwangju residents to be very, very friendly and enjoyed both the city and the surrounding region. Jeollanam-do is still probably my favorite place in which to travel.
Now, if you want a “whole universe of bigots, hicks and boors,” you go to Gyeongsangbuk-do”
Wow, when did you live in Cholla? I was there Feb 97 to Jan 98. Did you know Simon Jenkins, a longtimer there? My impression was this: when they liked you, they really really liked you. When they hated you, they really really hated you.
I won’t argue that with your memories - obviously that is what you experienced there. My memories of my 3 weeks touring kyongsangbuk-do would cause me to say “Great people!” So go figure.
In 97, we were an embattled little community. I had a student who was an immigration officer, he told me i was one of 76 foreigners in Kwangju ( a city of a million) and that 3 years before there had been only 20. We were clearly new.
Life was nasty. The same student told me we had the highest percentage of foreigners who ran away back home than any other immigration post in Korea. 4 western women were raped while I was there. 2 western men were put in the hospital for almost a month (different times) by Korean toughs. Everyone male in our tight little embattled community had been forced to fight. Complete and total strangers would attack us at bars. To this day, the few of us still here who run into each other treat each other like battle buddies.
May I suggest, Robert, that having your wife from Mongolia meant you spent your time there - wake up; go to work; come home from work; spend time with the wife; sleep; - a little sheltered.
I just have heard too many stories in that year to ignore. The Kwangju mentality is “Chun Doowhan shot us, so anything we inflict on the foreigners is justified.”
I will say, though, I have heard a lot about Kyongsang being a damn tough province from other current friends.
And, as a Mormon - which I totally respect - and therefore I assume a non-drinker, you might be in my category of guys who were effectively working/sleeping/hanging out with the wife in the apt/touring with friendly Korean protectors.
Tourism is ALL word of mouth. When people go away delighted, they talk, and others come. If Korean tourism is declining, it says something by itself.
Y’know… For the talk of the outer provinces (anything outside of Seoul) being the ass-end of Hicksville, most of the incidents that seemed to happen between the expats I knew in Korea and the locals (other than hagwon owners, but they’re a different species altogether) seemed to have happened in Seoul. I lived for six years in ’small towns’ (less than a million people) that were never closer than 150km to Seoul (Cheongju, Gyeongju, Gwangyang), and was never treated to more than the background harassment that sort of fades off your radar after a few months in Korea. Almost without an exception, the expats I knew had no problems living in the provinces (despite the ‘whole other world of bigotry’,) but several of them got into rather serious problems in Seoul (one was even stabbed — it was only a flesh wound.)
As for why Korea doesn’t have many tourists… The snarky comments about there being nothing to see in South Korea are way off-base. There’s plenty to see and experience in Korea, but Korea’s neighbors have been much more effective in marketing their attractions (even despite similar levels of English speaking and laughable English signage). There’s also no Starbucks in Kyungbokkung, like there is in the Forbidden City. And as for the more charming of Korea’s cultural wonders, many of them are tucked away in the mountains (and a bit difficult to access), rather than in the middle of the sprawl of a major city like Shanghai or Kyoto. And the towns surrounding some of the major tourist attractions in Korea seem to be more for local consumption than anything else… You can’t get a really decent hamburger near Bulguksa. Getting a cup of coffee that isn’t either watered or instant in Mungyeong can test the mettle of even the most resourceful tourist. And forget finding anything approaching an Egg McMuffin near Seoraksan. Once Korea starts addressing these problems, the tourist dollars should come pouring in.
The Marmot is a Mongolian-marrying Mormon Missionary? Not all parts of that equation can be true at the same time, can they?
Having been all over Korea from the 90s until my last trips in 2005, I’ve only been verbally accosted due to being an American once (was told how all Americans are bad, etc., by an elderly lady who was at the temple at Soraksan).
I spent a few days in Kwangju in late July 2002 (after the accident that left two school girls dead), and had absolutely no problem with the locals; the opposite was true on many occasions. I even got a ride from an elderly gentleman after I missed the bus from the cemetery back into town, and he went a bit out of his way to take me near my next destination, the national museum there.
Aside from a few looks and rude behavior – about half of which could have been from those being a-holes in general, not just to the round eye – I had no issues. Walking hand-in-hand with my first girlfriend and later wife never caused an issue or comment, including at night while drinking and not in/with a group. The majority of my time was in Seoul.
While I don’t like a lot of things about Korea, I have just not been harassed to the level described above or anywhere near it. And I did not lead a sheltered life oblivious to what was going on/being said around me.
I have to wonder if those who have had a plethora of issues might not be calling it down on themselves, at least some.
‘I have to wonder if those who have had a plethora of issues might not be calling it down on themselves, at least some.”
Or exaggerating. Or focusing on the negative and seeing the bottle as 2% empty rather than 98% full.
Is there a difference between missionaries and the secular students of Korea that expound their knowledge of the place over the Internet?
No.
It takes more than a passport and a tithe to make one’s way in the world other than that which one is brought into, and its probably a good thing for those that can’t do so that which are unfortunately beset with a negative mindset that limits them to struggling against anything foreign, suffer hardship and arrogant responses form the ajoshi on the train that was trying to make conversation with a visitor to his own country.
Ha, what a loser, lucky he didn’t get a good kick in the head.
Paranoia may have killed the cat, but it makes life difficult for dimshits like those that suffer such difficulties when they are wading in waters out of their depth.
Home is only a plane ticket away.
And going by Richardson’s past comments on the Internet, I’m surprised he has yet to acknowledge the source of his antagonism toward Korea and its people.
One old man and a free car ride does not a racist make.
I don’t have any, “antagonism toward Korea and its people.” I do have issues with the anti-American antics of Korea’s left, and don’t care for the Roh admin (but about 85 percent of Koreans don’t either). But again, that’s not the same as, “antagonism toward Korea and its people.” I also have issues with those who toss out red herrings.
“I have issues with the anti-American antics of Korea’s left, and don’t care for the Roh admin”
Yes, it’s these issues that you have yet to come to terms with.
Laughing at you while you try to do so.
A lot of comments, and some random replies and observations.
Last time my wife and I flew between Seoul and Daegu, KAL and Asiana combined were providing half-hourly or hourly service. But why fly at all when you can take the KTX or save money and take an express bus?
Regarding Seoul vs. the provinces, maybe it’s subjective. Daegu folks (in Gyeongbuk, where Robert’s had his worst experiences) are salt of the earth, and my foreigness has never been an issue there, the way it is from the cold-shouldered sophisticated, snobbish crowd in Seoul.
My in-laws are conservative, small-town folks (insofar as Daegu with a pop of 2M is small compared to Seoul-Gyeonggi with up to 20M). My parents-in-law grew up on farms. They’ve probably voted conservative their entire adult life. My wife’s family has more money than mine does. From their point of view, they were doing me a favour, allowing me to marry their daughter. And yet, they never treated me like I was beneath their dignity, some evil foreigner, or the like.
I’m not going to argue with the experiences and insights of Hugh or Foobat-Careb, and I’m sorry to hear about Hugh’s litany of bad stuff that’s happened to him. I’m no fool. I don’t like the patronizing taunts from schoolkids. I’ve been reading this blog for almost 3 years: I know the score, with some of the ugliness that’s gone down both at the personal level (mistreatment of foreigners) and societal level (loony paranoid anti-foreigner nonsense in the mass media). But it’s not ALL lunacy. And remember: no matter how bad we have it as foreigners, Koreans themselves are stuck in that society, from birth to death, with the classism, success determined by school ties, rat race, enforced drinking parties, rampant adultery, etc., etc., etc.
Enjoy what you can of the food and drink, music (the good stuff, not K-pop), art, culture, architecture, natural parks, and the like.
Oh, and on a side note, my 100% Korean nephew loves all things Japanese, and with no nationalistic overtone. I have to tease him about it.
Well, those are my two cents.
what’s so interesting about this bad treatment from the koreans is that it’s ALWAYS their fault. you mean, it’s never your fault? wait a minute, most of you love to run around talking about how you (allegedly) take the korean man’s woman. you think that attitude doesn’t translate into your behavior? i wonder how often you folks walk around mad dogging korean dudes for having the nerve to be in korea. c’mon, now, don’t tell me it’s all them and not you. and btw, when you can tell me about lynching in korea, then i’ll show some concern. you know what i mean, don’t ya?
‘koreans HAVE to live here…’ sewing
maybe it’s just my family but most are happy with their lives in korea.
Well, no lynchings I can recall, just several murders and many reported stabbings, along with numerous rapes, and almost non stop harassment of foreign women. Yes, its true people become accustomed to the treatment they receive, but it does not mean they like it.
#75 Something like 45% of Korean college students would prefer to have American citizenship and more than 30 percent of the Korean population would seriously consider moving abroad. So, it may be just your family.
“i wonder how often you folks walk around mad dogging korean dudes for having the nerve to be in korea. ”
Good one, pawi. LOL!
I don’t have to “come to terms with” any of that. If you’re laughing, it’s not at that.
I think I gave you far too much credit when I suggested a red herring.
# 76,
You know Kwon, polls don’t work really well in Korea. I don’t know why. Korea has got to be one of the few countries in the world where exit polls are usually wrong.
A couple of evenings ago I was sitting at one of those plastic tables outside of a local convenience store in Anyang having a Guinness (did you know that many convenience stores are carrying cans of Guinness now? hooray!) when a menacing-looking Korean dude walked past me and into the store. A couple of minutes later he walked out and handed me - a complete stranger - one of those melon-flavored ice cream bars. The nerve of the guy!
Koreans living in Korea vs living in America.
it used to be that Koreans came to America either because they were of high SES seeking greater opportunities in their expertise or people of low SES seeking better life in general.
I don’t know if I believe my parents, but based on observation, I might, the East Coast had Koreans of higher SES and the West Coast had Koreans of lower SES initially. That seems to be no longer true at this point.
you never heard this line in the Korean community?
In the west, Koreans buy their kids a nice car.
In the east, Koreans send their kids to ivy league schools.
I heard that in the 90s.
america changed a lot, too.
Abercrombie and Fitch’s T shirt about
Two Wongs make a White.
That’s 50 years behind the current truth.
It’s now
Two Kims make a White.
although it does not rhyme.
If I felt any menace in 5 years in Korea (1987-89, 2001-5), it was from Darwin Award-winning motorists, from bikes to buses, who looked like they wanted to take me with them.
@22
“People who can make a decent meal for themselves don’t really have food complaints”
I can cook, but working all day long in a company makes it impossible. So I go to restaurants and EAT the food. Pudechigue (or whatever the romanization is), Nakji, Bibimbap, Chukumi, etc. etc. . But nothing that I say “Great! Lunch time!”. Now, I stay away from what I don’t like.
“maximus seems like nothing more than a weak stomach waygookin who reinforces the “foreigners don’t like spicy food” stigma.”
The issue - as somebody already mentioned - is not the pepper. Is how it’s used. Thai food is spicy, but has a great flavor and taste. Indian food can be damn spicy, but delicious, since you have other things THAN the pepper. Korean spicy food you just feel the pepper.
“Yup. It doesn’t stink.”
Ok, that bean curd paste “aroma” is a pure ready-to-become-Channel-next-perfume. Come on, let’s be realistic.
I’m a waygook, yes. I handle pepper and spicy food (love Thai, Indian, Cajun). But have problems with the Korean food, so far, the one I’ve least enjoyed throughout the world. I have the right to not like it and say it, right?
Besides the “bastardization process” that I’ve read in another blog, not sure which was: pizzas with sweet potato borders, kimchi sushis, etc. .
@27
Was writing a nice long post for you Hugh, but decided to save it since you seemed to back down some (30) and since most other people already told you that you were off-base.
maximus, maximus pack a lunch. I’m sure lots of places around your company serve a plethora of Western delights anyway in case you’re too tired to do so.
The stink? Still disagree. The only Korean foods to assault my nostrils (other than the piles of trash I noted earlier) are bundaegi and freshly pressed squid. There, I (might) agree, is a stink.
There are plenty of things that don’t use pepper (which you can ask to be omitted from many dishes anyway) or soy bean paste.
Love or hate Korean food. When you claimed there was “stink” you got my goat.
On the touch of realism… Lots of people work all day and still manage to go home and feed themselves (and their entire families, too!), stop being lazy d00d.
#69, et al
Yes and no. Certainly a lot of people come here with a chip (attitude) that just makes friction. But almost of the trouble I’ve encountered and witnessed was from young Korean men carrying a bigger chip.
The only exception is the one time I was assaulted while walking with a Korean girl. In that case it was a mid-40s SNU grad (the cops looked him up and made a comment about what happens to your brain when you read too many books) who grabbed my girl and called her a ‘dog pussy’ then smacked her and kicked me at a crowded bus stop. He was nuts.
Some people bring bad stuff to themselves, others just have it happen because like I said earlier… they are just incredibly unlucky.
I wouldn’t necessarily say I had my “worst experiences” there. I love Gyeongbuk, especially the northern part of it, consider it my 제2 고향 and, if had half a chance, would move back down there in a heartbeat. It’s my favorite region of Korea, period. I’m just saying that culturally speaking, it’s hyper-conservative and, some might say, a bit one the redneck side. Definitely not the center of Korean multiculturalism. Which, I should say, is fine — it’s what gives the region its charm.
tomojiro, thank you for your reply. the problems i have with japan are with the japanese government and not the japanese people. indeed, i would NEVER EVER bring up dokto, comfort women, or the occupation with any japanese person i have met and have yet to meet.
please have a good day.
‘the 70’s were great for foreigners.’ gerry
yeah, maybe for you as an american. i actually feel tears when i think of the all hungry people back then.
“I have to wonder if those who have had a plethora of issues might not be calling it down on themselves, at least some.”
Uh sure. I was asking for it all. ̶