It seems like every political figure is jumping on the “Let’s pressure the US” bandwagon. The latest figure to weigh in is former Unification Minister Chung Dong Young.
According to Financial News, Mr. Chung has sent an open letter to Pres. George W. Bush via the US Embassy in Seoul.
Here is the English translation;
If the 23 (now 21) hostages were American and not Korean, we ask what would the US have done in this situation. Koreans believe that since this crisis is a part of the War on Terror, the US is the main party and not a third party. We appeal to the US to think of the hostages as Americans and take specific measures to solve this crisis.
We respect that there is a “seen principle” among nations that they should not negotiate with terrorists, but there is also an “unseen principle”. We remember the case where an American female journalist was released in exchange for five Iraqi female prisoners, which means there is a recognition that there is an exemption to the non negotiating principle.
Saving a life is more important than one’s obligations and profit. If Pres. Bush was to step forward and save the hostages, then people around the world will continue praising you for your determination, leadership, management, and love.
Well let’s just say the contents of the above letter is not that surprising, if you take into account the author. I wonder how Pres. Bush will react when he reads the above letter.
104 Comments
And according to the English Chosun several groups are threatening to hold candlelight vigils outside of the US Embassy. How embarrassing for Korea.
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....20013.html
Nauseating, especially the flattery laid on with a trowel at the end, as if anyone in Korea had ever praised Bush for any of those things.
But smart election-year behavior. Expect one of these letters from each candidate. And remember that it was the GNP candidate in 2002 (not Roh) who demanded that Bush apologize for the dead schoolgirls.
I groaned as soon as I saw his name in the heading.
If the 23 hostages were North Korean refugees and not Korean Christian missionaries, we ask what Chung Dong-young would have done in this situation when he was Unification Minister.
I nearly spit my coffee out on the computer screen. Coincidentally, since you asked how President Bush might react upon reading the letter, I’d say much the same as I did. Hope he has something to clean off his monitor.
But remember, children — nobody is or will be blaming the US if the hostages get killed. Least of all the government. To suggest so would be fallacious.
Oh, in case you’re interested, here’s more fallaciousness, courtesy the JoongAng Ilbo:
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....#038;seq=4
Not sure I agree with this part, though:
Yeah, I’m sure Cheong Wa Dae is really worried about 자극ing 반미 감정 ahead of the elections…
Wow. You can’t make this stuff up.
mins0306, you didn’t read this?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww....._7515.html
(And Bush will never even see the insipid letter, silly.)
If I only had a dollar for every time I read a comment in the last week about how Koreans weren’t blaming the US.
What an idiot I was for suggesting that this entire Scapegoatapalooza was on the horizon.
I think the editorial in the chosun shows that at least some people are thinking
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....20025.html
so now any missionary group from whatever country which travels with the authoririztion of their own government to lets say a muslim country because we all know the war on terror is basically a war against muslims and islam (yeah not politically correct but its true) will be the responsibility of the United States!
awesome
re: “I wonder how Pres. Bush will react when he reads the above letter.”
After he finishes reading it, while on the crapper, he no doubt will use said piece of correspondence to wipe his ‘business’ up.
Subtract Chung Dong Yong for a minute. He’s anti-American idiot anyway. But asking for the US to free those Talibans so that those Koreans can be saved in time, that’s really anti-American and that’s blaming America? What kind of logic is this? WOW. It’s up to the US to look after their interests, but the flip side is you can’t blame the Koreans to look after theirs. Frankly, if I was the prez of ROK, I would do nothing and let those 23 be sacrificed.
Mins0360,
Was that post a dart board for commentators? You know it’s pretty predictable what the responses are gonna be.
Hummmm… I guess the context here is that I don’t live in Korea and I’m not Caucasian enough looking to garner the dirty looks from the natives if this somehow gets transferred to a “it was the U.S.’s fault that they all died. They were not flexible enough” kind of debate.
Anyways, I too believe that Chung Dong Young’s comments display a profound lack of understanding of both the situation and the motivation of the U.S. I can sympathize here. However, throwing darts against this kind of thinking on an Internet blog is not going to change anything. Koreans can be naive and obtuse and I think many of you guys got to see it first hand (and in a very unfair manner) when those two girls got run over by an APC several years ago.
I for one understand that Korea has very little leverage with the U.S. and much of that has been self inflicted. I would however, disagree that it’s all Korea’s fault either. I’d say that both Korea and the U.S. has idiots for presidents at this time.
Aggravating.
Also bear in mind, some of the rhetoric that the U.S. uses in their war on terror as well as their war in Iraq sound just as funny as what Chung Dong Young said.
And, you blow-dried hypocrite, I remember when Kim Sun-il had his head sawed off it was the world’s worst tragedy, but when the same thing happened to Daniel Pearl and other Americans (who, gee, we didn’t save — didn’t you notice that, ya moron?) not a single Korean cared.
Get stuffed.
“I would however, disagree that it’s all Korea’s fault either. I’d say that both Korea and the U.S. has idiots for presidents at this time.”
It is neither the fault of Bush or Roh. The Taliban are not some force of nature. They are human beings who bear responsibility for their actions. What happens to the hostages is the Tablibs’ fault and theirs alone. These calls for the US to do something for Korean citizens that the Korean government is either unwilling or unable to do for themselves is a way distracting people from that fact since the Roh administration and its allies do not want to enter into a confrontation with the Taliban.
Such a reframing of the issue allows the political class to avoid doing something to resolve the problem themsesves or avenge the deaths of the hostages (I do not expect any Korean combat troops in Afghanistan even if all of the hostages are killed). It is also a set-up for anti-American protests to influence the presidential election.
Chung Dumb Young has no formal “standing” here. He isn’t a member of the government and has no authority to speak for it. US Embassy Korea should refuse to accept his letter and make that fact known.
If the 23 (now 21) hostages were American and not Korean, we ask what would the US have done in this situation. Koreans believe that since this crisis is a part of the War on Terror, the US is the main party and not a third party. We appeal to the US to think of the hostages as Americans and take specific measures to solve this crisis.
let me answer these for you dipstick!
1. 23 american hostages would not be negotiated for
2. koreans believe this is a crisis in the war on terror.
okay first koreans believe so that means the US should do? NOT! and are you not an active member of this war? but yet your government refuses to use a military option at all! this is pathetic and cowardly. those two words pretty much sum up korea’s military responses thru out history.
3. the US should think of the hostages as americans.
this is the dumbest thing i have ever heard because simply they are korean citizens they went to a country on their own free will and with the approval of your own government.
the US can not pick and choose when to implement its policy to ask that shows your incompetence
Hmm…I never thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, it’s my dartboard too.
As you can tell, I’m not much of a fan of the politician in question. I can go on about the guy’s track record, but that’s another story. Also, what makes the above letter distasteful, to say the least, is that the person in question probably does not care an iota about the 21 hostages and is probably using them and this so called open letter to better his chances for the presidency. And the wording….ughh.
Who knew that living a short while in Korea would provide me with a lifetime of amusement!
I honestly don’t care if the hostages are killed. Darwin would smile.
I do care, however, that this is another indication that Korea isn’t a normal country.
Like all the parking lot ajosis. They beat their chest and scream and holler to high hell. But when push comes to shove, they just give you a dumb look and start blaming.
So pathetic.
But what makes it even more humorous, is that Koreans feel collective racial guilt and embarrassment due to their weird collectivist/racist culture. When the dust settles, and they look back, they are all going to feel really, really embarrassed that their “face” fell off so darn fast.
We can expect more belligerent stomping of the feet and pounding of the chest from the various colonized-mentality douchbags that govern and otherwise speak for that poor country. Action, however, is not something they are culturally capable of.
I think the US ought to take full advantage of this state of affairs, and make the trade: hostages for prisoners. In return, Korea must put up 1000 combat troops for 5 years. Everybody looks good.
“Getting to YES”, baby!
Well, I’m not sure if that’s true, either. But regardless, the US would be doing the negotiating itself, not asking Seoul to do it for them. And at any rate, if Seoul wants Washington to use its influence, it should expect Washington to ask the same thing the South Korean government — the very same government the Chung served as head of the NSC — would ask: what are you going to do for us?
When you tire of throwing darts at Chung Dong-young, you can fire away at DLP National Assemblyman Roe Hoe-chan, who put in his two cents about the hostage crisis along with other political leaders in this news story:
http://www.pressian.com/script.....0802114432
According to the story, conservative politicians Park Geun-hye and Lee Myung-bak stressed the importance of Korea-US cooperation and downplayed anti-Americanism, but like Assemblyman Roe, an aide to Park expressed a belief that the deaths of 21 hostages will spark a stronger reaction than the deaths of Hyo-sun and Mi-seon.
“an aide to Park expressed a belief that the deaths of 21 hostages will spark a stronger reaction than the deaths of Hyo-sun and Mi-seon.”
Awesome! I eagerly look forward to the proudly colonized shooting themselves in the foot one last time. The right-wing American blogosphere would go apeshit if Koreans blamed America for muslim murder in Afghanistan.
Sonagi — Roh Hoe-chan has been hammering that point since the crisis started.
The really interesting question is who’s more politically irrelevant, Chung or Roh?
(of course, now that I’ve said that, Chung will go on a tear and win the progressive presidential nomination)
That’s interesting that Comrade Chung has an open letter to President Bush, because I’ve got one for him, too. It is only two words long. The first word begins with “F.” The second word is “you.”
Last night I was eating dinner in a restaurant when some of these left-wing idiots appeared on the TV protesting in front of the U.S. Embassy. It was all I could do to keep my middle finger from rising up to the screen.
I was able to control myself, and went back to using chopsticks well.
“Koreans believe that since this crisis is a part of the War on Terror, the US is the main party and not a third party.”
Oh, oh. Sounds very much like the US is being set up to become the scapegoat here.
“Saving a life is more important than one’s obligations and profit.”
Spoken by a true fool. If the US reneged on its obligations, the consequences would be much more severe than 23 dead hostages. And what does he mean by ‘profit’? Does he mean the US should forgo the benefits of keeping its obligations? Let’s hope he’s not stupid enough to be claiming that the US is profiting financially here.
He seems to be basically saying that saving a life trumps all other matters, throw away your principles, standards, beliefs, everything to save (your) life. People may do this when they face death, but it’s certainly not a good policy for a government to do it. Next thing you know, you’ll have terrorists, or in Chung Dong Yong’s case, Kim Jeong Il running your foreign policy.
This is a patently absurd request, unless another equally absurd offer comes with it. If Chung Dong Yong wants the US to treat Koreans in this situation as American citizens, then he needs to offer the rest of Korea to also be American citizens. Make Korea the 51st state of the US, then the US can consider Korean citizens to be US citizens too.
Remember guys, one absurd idea deserves another!
On second thought, maybe Bush should consent to the Korean demands and pressure Kabul to make the prisoner swap.
On one condition:
Roh, his cabinet, and 10 of the highest ranking legislators from each political party all fly to Dallas. They then put the Samboilbae practice to use, taking 3 steps and a bow for 119 miles until they reach Crawford. When they arrive, they must all repeatedly bow in front of Bush and beg for his mercy. On national television. And I’m not talking about half-ass bows either. I’m talking DEEP bows.
At that point, Bush can decide if they are “sincere” enough to grant the favor, while also weighing whether or not his “pride” is still intact after a week of being “insulted” by the Korean people, media, and government. If he’s still not satisfied, it’s quite possible several dumptrucks full of “condolence money” may allow him to recover his pride and make the call to Kabul.
Interesting netizen response to Newsweek’s leading off its hostage article with a picture of an anti-American demonstration: “It is right for us to demonstrate against the US ignoring Korea, but why does the magazine create the impression that all Koreans feel the same way?”
You see here the same schizophrenia as back in 2002: Righteous anti-Americanism combined with righteous indignation that America is taking note of the anti-Americanism!
I guess I can only say I am glad to see Bob admitted he was making a wrong-headed leap in logic with the asking for flexibility = blaming the US argument in his original post, although it was kind of a peevish admission.
Chung Dong-young is too easy a target. Not worth my time.
Hmm…my only other comment is this.
I am surprised. You mean George Bush can read????
One last thing
Bob made an incorrect charcerization. No one is asking the US to negotiate for anyone. In fact, most of the time, a UN hostage negotiating specialist is called in, or some other unprovocative person/representative. This is maybe too nuanced a point for some people, but it is an important distinction. The lead negotiator right now is an Afghani, FYI.
“One last thing
Bob made an incorrect charcerization. No one is asking the US to negotiate for anyone.”
Right, they are asking the US to put pressure on the Afgani’s in addition to releasing a few hundred (if the 1 for 5 rule stands) jihadis. All this, without lifting a finger of their own.
The proud begger strikes again!
“We remember the case where an American female journalist was released in exchange for five Iraqi female prisoners….”
What has not yet been recognized in the above comments is that many Korean bloggers commenting on Korean newspaper sites recognize the sensibility of the American position and are quick to put down the few who suggest that Americans should capitualte on behalf of some very foolish Koreans.
Many in the Korean community recognize that the Afghans have captured their Taliban prisoners often at the loss of life of their own troops. Furthermore, possibly different than in case of the five Iraqi women, those Taliban held captive, once released, are likely to wreck deadly havoic on and off the battlefield. In other words, not even considering the broader principles of negotiating with terrorists, release of the Taliban prisoners could very well lead to loss of life in far excess of the possible fates of the 21 Korean hostages.
Contrary to our weary cynicism, there are many level-headed Koreans here who can look at this situation sensibly — and who have become very tired of national political environment of the past five years. I’m not dismissing the likelihood of the masses bah-ing nonsense in front of the US Embassy while holding candles with their dates. But perhaps much of Korea has grown up a bit during these past five years. Time alone will tell…
How pathetic is this slime ball? This whole thing is rapidly approaching the level of farce it it hasn’t already.
#35: Tom–I hope you’re right.
How many fingers will fall by the time this is all over?
Will they pull apart a live piglet again? How many flags burnt? Will this even get its own pop song? How will Japan eventually be implicated in all this?
I wonder if newsfutures would run a market on these questions..?
Blueballs, I searched for “Scapegoatapalooza” and it didn’t return any results, so I think you should trademark that one…
Tambe, if I ever hear that you or someone close you dies, I’ll temper my grief by remembering this quote and what a callous asshole you are… maybe I’ll even try to smile along with Darwin.
I don’t recall making any such admission.
Hey, if my kin are spreading the “word of god” in East Pakistan I’ll cite Darwin for them too.
How goddamn stupid could these people be? Let us not allow the Koreans to distract from the real issue here. These people made a decision (remember the picture??) and are now feeling the consequences. George Bush has nothing to do with it.
This is motherfucking fate.
Mr. Chung is such a brave man, how about we trade him for the hostages. I am sure he cares so much about the hostages that he would gladly give his own life.
If this BS keeps up like 2002, people may wonder why the USA even bothers with Korea. In fact once the huge demos get going, I think americans would gladly turn people like chung over to the taliban.
When I served in the Army here, for reasons I cannot remember, more than once the conversation arose between a KATUSA “If a Korean and an American were drowning in a lake, who would you save first?” Now granted there are tons of strategies for rescuing people, and I don’t intend to start any sort of discussion on prioritizing the rescue drowning victims, but my answer at the time was “the closest person to me”. I always got some confused and doubtful look from the Korea who posed this question.
For me there is no question about it. Imagine the absurdity of a rescuer jumping in and swimming to the first victim:
R: I’m here to help - But first, what nationality are you?
V: Gurgle gulp He… Gurgle!
R: What?!
V: Hel.. Gulp Gurgle Me..!
R: Me… Meh?..?! Mexican?! You’re Mexican? Ok hold on, I’ll go check this other guy over there… hang on…
It betrays a way of thinking, and a way that is being expressed by Chung Dong Yong. In Korea the ideas of Nationality and race are intertwined, but the US doesn’t have this, one flip of a pen and a Korean can be an American, thus there is no American 민족 for us to consider more valuable than the next person (I suppose its just an issue of who pays taxes every year and votes that creates the obligation to look after its citizens)
I guess the next question is, if the US should think of these people as Americans, maybe Korea should to. Just for the sake of all being on the same page. Now, having done this, does Korea still care about them?
I am equally dismayed that this is somehow turning into “it’s the U.S.’s fault” situation here. I certainly hope it doesn’t because nothing is farther from the truth.
Oh… if the hostages were were American, then America would probably try to launch a military operation to free them. I’d say that half the hostages would die in the attempt, but they would be considered casualties in the war on terror.
This outcome would be unacceptable to the Korean government as they are a reluctant ally on the war on terror at best. But, this is what I honestly think the U.S. would do if they were American citizens.
As someone above alluded to, Chung DongYoung is an empty suit who certainly doesn’t represent Korea. He’s riding at something like 2% popularity in presidential polls at the moment, which pretty much says it all.
With the future looking grim, and no marketable skills save reading news off a paper on TV, the Donger is desperate to get his numbers up and thus you have this pompous and arrogant letter, positioning the Donger as the heroic Korean man standing up to the unfair/criminal/rich Bush etc. etc… It’s a song that is getting old to Koreans, I think.
Trouble is, he’s been at 2% for a reason, and that reason is that 98 of a 100 Koreans have written him off as a lightweight blow-dried BS artist whom they wouldn’t hire to watch their Kimbap restaurant, let alone run the nation. At the very least, Roh was actually a lawyer with the arduous study that entailed - this clown read the news off a paper for a career and entered into politics with the rationale “Hey, I’m good-looking - Why not ME?”
I really do think the majority of Koreans will see this for what it is - a craven attempt of self-promotion from an ongoing tragedy. I only wonder how someone at 2% popularity even gets a public voice anymore. Back home the media wouldn’t even bother reading the letter, let alone reporting on it.
Only unacceptable because there is a weak willed leftie commie bastard running the show. Let’s not kid ourselves, if Chung Hee running the show there would be dead Taliban and hostage body parts strewn all over the mountains but then the message would get passed around that Koreans are not to be kidnapped for cash.
good points tambe like i said these people went to inchon airport checked in at KAL rolled thru immigration and to the gate boarded their flight to a war zone!
korean govt approved and they (missionaries) first bare responsibility for themselves
When I served in the Army here, for reasons I cannot remember, more than once the conversation arose between a KATUSA “If a Korean and an American were drowning in a lake, who would you save first?”
Funny, this reminds me of when I was married my wife asked me who I would save, her or my mother, and another time her or our (at that time imaginary) kid. Anyone else have to answer these questions from their Korean spouse?
I haven’t had to answer the question yet but I’d definitely go for my wife. My wife sleeps with me, my mother doesn’t. If I have to choose between my child and my wife… I think I’d go for my wife again. We can make another child.
Of course I’d actually have to GET married first…
Korea should shut the hell up and listen to the U.S. The Americans remember what a disaster it is to negotiate to offer stuff up in exchange for Christians held hostage in Muslim hot spots.
Hugh, What’s the correct answer? (Filial piety and all.)
mateomiguel. that makes sense.
Unfortunately, Koreans are taught to go for the old person, then the child, then the wife.
go figure
Because they’ve already got someone else they’re sleeping with?
Well, Pen Ab, who knows what the correct answer is with a woman? Sometimes there is none…
I told her I would save my mom first, and the other time our kid first. Explanation - they are both weaker than her and she’d have a better chance of lasting till I got back. She said they were the wrong answers, she should be first, and gave me some of those laughing faux-punches Korean girls do, and that was all.
Isn’t Chung the same clown, who while explaining how America left Korea to the Japanese for colonization, confused Theo and Franklin Roosevelt? (By the way, did those “386″ guys ever have to go to class, write a paper, read the book, etc, when they were in school?)
While the DLP’s Roe Hoe-chan may be a far more malicious character, he’s a fringe nutter. On the other hand, Chung is a former cabinet minister and potential presidential candidate for a mainstream party. Anyway, it’s likely just a weak - and hopefully futile - attempt to boost his pathetic poll numbers.
my kids would be first and i would expect the same from my wife
always the kids first
You didn’t have to add that last sentence for us to know you’re not married and have no child. In a choice between the spouse or the child, the answer of both mother and father is the same — I shall not outlive my child.
#43.
I would have told them that they were morons for entertaining such thoughts before explained why your answer is the right one for both practical and ethical reasons.
“In a choice between the spouse or the child, the answer of both mother and father is the same — I shall not outlive my child.”
Well, I am happily married - however with no children yet. I hope I will never get into a situation where such an odious choice would have to be made…
“…Korean can be an American…”
#43:
In my humble German view a Korean cannot BE an American (cases of double citizenship excepted) but a Korean can, of course, TURN into an American. Having done this s/he is no longer Korean. Obvious, heh ?
My Korean wife is presently considering whether she should turn into a German. She is full well aware cannot be both at the same time.
Correction:
She is full well aware that she cannot be both at the same time.
Tambe, I also agree that these people did this aware of the dangers, and of their own free will. And you can call it “fate” if you want, and thats fine too. And the government warned them of the dangers and they went regardless, so of course the government is free of any responsibility in this matter. Thats not what this is about. None of this justifies total emotional apathy in regards to whether or not they live or die.
Bear in mind they were there on a charity mission, to provide what medical assistance and aid they could. Regardless of whether or not they mentioned they were from a church while doing this, or handed out a bible or two, or three hundred, they were there to helping the sick, doing what most churches do, and what few people in the developed world see and that is charity.
Due simply to the fact that they are in the developed world and have health care thus don’t see the clinics operating in the middle of some poor African country.
Yes amusement parks are the exception rather than the rule. Most churches run orphanages and hospitals, soup kitchens, support groups, educational establishments to make people lives better or to help those people build better lives for themselves. Things that generally don’t make a profit, so thus aren’t being handled by capitalism.
No tell me what the fuck you do that is so damn great for this world that at you can sit there with a clean conscience and say you could don’t care if people who do this work die?
I can tell you are someone you has a roof over your head, all your life you’ve known where your next meal was coming from, when you were sick your mommy could take you to the doctor and you’ve probably always had drinkable water and weren’t shitting your intestines of from parasites, and never have you had to rely on the kindness of complete strangers to risk EVERYTHING of theirs, their safe country their families, and their lives to come and help you, and if you had, you obviously have either forgotten, ignorant of the fact or are so abhorrently indifferent to others that you can say “I don’t care if they die”.
The people being held hostage right now realized there are people in this world who need help, and they gave up everything to go help them knowing full damn well of the risks. And you sit there is a privileged lifestyle behind a computer, ignorant of this proudly proclaiming your obscene indifference to their fate.
Yes they knew the risks, but they determined the need outweighed the government warnings. They cared more for the poor than themselves. This doesn’t mean they deserve that kind of attitude from you.
Fuck you.
Well, my position is somewhere in the middle between Tambe and Captbbq.
#60 True of course it would have been better had I say “turn into” as it is more correct and still gets the point across.
However, FWIW I was actually thinking about “Korean Americans” in that they are of American nationality, and ethnically Korean. Semantics I suppose…
At least Chung Dong-young is consistent, always a tool. The former TV talking head is a complete bimbo and fortunately will sabotage his own political career.
Maybe I’ve just missed it in the English news sites, but what is Ban Ki-moons reaction to this?
gentlemen, please continue this discussion, but note that it seems you may need to replace Chung with Kim, and proceed with the same adjs and nouns…
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=100
Of course, these people are not deserving of emotional apathy. But the whole subject of compassion for their peril is what’s beside the point vis-a-vis the political context in which this is happening.
What the elements of their reckless conduct that you mention - along with the other, e.g.,their entry into A. in violation of Afghani law - do justify is official government inaction, especially by Afghanistan and the US, and even Korea - apart from pious expressions of concern; unless there is some extraneous consideration of national self-interest that argues otherwise. The latter is clearly not the case for the Afghanis and the US. I’d be of the view that Korea’s self-interest as a nation dictates that it mount a military rescue mission to rescue the captives AND become a real participant in the war against terrorism, i.e., a combatant, but I don’t have any standing on those issues, so it’s just dicta.
As far as nationalities and such go, fwiw, I’d rescue my baek-in and heuk-in friends over any stranger Korean in the sea. I suppose too that if I found myself drowning in the waters and some random Korean had to make a choice between myself and his favorite expat bud, I’d expect him to save his buddy, although I’d certainly be pulling out the tricks - “Jebal, salryeo juseyo! Dae han min guk! Uri nara, same same! Hyeong!” Yes, I am evil.
As far as wives and children or mothers go, I am a priori all about whomever I love more, fused in with some externalist consideratons (ie a child gets more points for being a child over the old person). There’s a formal formula there, I’m sure.
“No tell me what the fuck you do that is so damn great for this world that at you can sit there with a clean conscience and say you could don’t care if people who do this work die?”
My conscience is more than clean. I don’t give a fuck. Less than a fuck. I don’t even give a fuc. Or an Fu. Maybe an F.
Now, to their “brothers” up North who are suffering. For them, I care.
These soon-to-be-dead Christians went there to convert muslims. Full Stop. All the medical care etc etc is lipstick on a pig. This was a mission of conversion. They took a risk and they got burnt. Adults doing adult things deal with adult consequences.
Darwin would have much to say about this.
Why going in commando style kicking ass and taking names, what’s your point? I think the question he needs to be asking is, ‘What would Korea do if the hostages where American?’ The answer would most likely be, ‘not a damn thing.’ So why does he expect America to do something about it? He should organize a joint rescue mission with the North to create a better atmosphere for reunification.
Tambe:
You sure have a point - but what about toning down your language just a little bit ?
Fantasy 72,
I think I was probably the worse offender as far as language goes, it was not directed at you, and I am sorry if it offended you. I rarely write like that.
Sperwer 68,
Just for the record, I’m in complete agreement… (”what this is about” was just refering not to the larger issue at hand, but rather why I was scolding tambe).
To continue the segway back on topic, its fools like Chung Dong Yong who are adding a whole new dimension this problem. I’m sure it will be an unintended but welcome windfall for the Taleban to have Liberal Koreans latch onto this to try and start another political hate orgy against the US in an election year.
At the same time, I don’t see how the victims could have predicted this either, thus I think the complete responsibility for the political context of this lies with politicians capitalizing on it and creating blame rather than resorting to the correct policy of inaction.
tambe, you liberal commie hypocrite. If the Koreans had been going over there to convert Muslims into secular latte sipping Prius driving white yuppie wannabes you would be screaming for the UN (US) to rescue the group because then they are human beings. I love liberals. Abort a nine month fetus, it never was a human being. Kick a pregnant feminist in the belly and its murder.
Yeah, I’m one of those liberal commies who believes in the primacy of personal responsibility.
Adults must deal with the adult world. They took a risk. The risk was their own. If the Koreans want to recuse them, it is 100% up to them.
Even the norks are getting in on it: “N. Korea calls for safe return of S. Korean hostages”
http://english.yonhapnews.co.k.....00315.HTML
In another story the N.K. FM Pak Ui-chun “aid his heart ached because people of his race are being held hostage.” Sensitive guy.
I don’t think this is going to turn into another 2002. Why? There is no mass internet netizen support for blaming the US and because editorials like this that are starting to pop up.
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....02255.html
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww....._7642.html
“If Pres. Bush was to step forward and save the hostages, then people around the world will continue praising you for your determination, leadership, management, and love.”
This is so demagogish.
And while you’re at President Bush, can you cut the kilowatt rates in Korea so I can run my air conditioner more affordably?
78.
Good idea, but why stop there? I thing Chung should also express his thanks to President Bush for his work in concluding the rainy season here. Next, he can ask him to actively intervene with Japan on behalf of Korea to prevent any major storms from ravaging the peninsula this typhoon season.
74.
” I love liberals.”
I sometimes do, but, oddly enough, usually not the Korean version.
“Abort a nine month fetus, it never was a human being.”
Where in the world is aborting a nine month fetus acceptable or legal? If it is, it sure shouldn’t be.
“Kick a pregnant feminist in the belly and its murder.”
Probably should be.
“I don’t think this is going to turn into another 2002. Why? There is no mass internet netizen support for blaming the US and because editorials like this that are starting to pop up.”
For the moment, I agree with you. I’ve been keeping up with the news in Korean and checking out the most recommended comments on message boards. Even reports and editorials that seek to goad the US or ominously warn of anti-Americanism are not getting much support from the netizens. Sometimes editorials appear precisely because there is a problem. I recall that back in 2001, the Chosun published an editorial titled, “To Those Who Beautify Terrorism,” aimed at Koreans and netizens especially who deified Bin Laden in the spirit of anti-Americanism. Having read overwhelmingly ant-American (and I DO mean anti-American) message boards at the major portals, I was glad to see the Chosun address this issue. Interestingly, netizen anti-Americanism was vaguely acknowledged but downplayed in the English papers.
I really think part of the reason why the seeds of anti-Americanism being planted in some media stories aren’t taking root among the netizens is that there is widespread opposition to the Roh administration. Netizens are quite happy to tag Roh and Co. with another fumble.
For the moment, for the moment; but don’t hold your breath. The striking thing to me at this stage are the lengths to which the Korean political elites of all stripes (and most of them should be wearing stripes)are either explicitly blaming the US or trying to get the US stuck to the hostage issue like a tar baby, so they can make political capital out of it. This is actually much more worrisome than the bleating of the sheep in the actual or virtual Gwanghwamun, and it still very much remains to be seen whether the shepherds will manage to stampede the herd.
#76,
It’s ironic since North Korea probably has links to the Taliban since: 1) it’s a terrorist state, 2) it illegally exports weapons, 3) it produces opium.
You can’t say the media here isn’t trying its damndest to pin responsibility on the U.S.: “The U.S. is believed to hold the key because of its influence over the Afghan government. The Afghan government was set up by the U.S.”
http://english.yonhapnews.co.k.....0315F.HTML
It “holds the key” because it “set up” the Afghan government. Somebody should tell Karzai that Koreans think he’s a U.S. puppet.
It’s already odious that the Roh gov’t hasn’t done anything for the roughly 500 South Koreans kidnapped by N.K., and this just adds to the stench.
South Korean politicians exist to make those of all other countries look wise in comparison.
“It “holds the key” because it “set up” the Afghan government. Somebody should tell Karzai that Koreans think he’s a U.S. puppet. “
I’ve heard that idea from elsewhere in the world, too. Karzai, as I recall, was a US oil industry consultant before he repatriated back to Afghanistan to lead a US-backed interim government. I wouldn’t call him a puppet, but without his longstanding close ties to the US, he wouldn’t be in office.
globalvillageidiot, at first I thought you were kidding then I thought maybe you really don’t know. If a nine month pregnant woman gets a psychiatric evalution saying that the pregnancy is damaging to her mental health then you can go ahead and abort. That is what partial birth abortion is all about. By the way would like to see a video clip of an actual partial birth abortion being performed?
“If a nine month pregnant woman gets a psychiatric evalution saying that the pregnancy is damaging to her mental health then you can go ahead and abort. “
Can you cite even a single case of this?
Do we have any Hostage Riders making their way across the Korean peninsula yet?
(that is, the part of the Korean peninsula that doesn’t already have 23[million] hostages?)
Here is the group that started the whole investigation http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html(.) The testimony of Brenda Pratt Shafer http://www.priestsforlife.org/.....imony.html is beyond question. What Life Dynamics found was that minors who were pregnant were given abortions without prosecution of the fathers for statutory rape. They also found a strange pattern of third trimester abortions for the sake of the mental health of the patient. Currently they are trying to force open the medical records of these patients by using statutory rape laws. 1.4 % of all abortions in the US are partial birth abortions. Which means that any given year there are 2,500 to 3,000 partial birth abortions in the US alone. Never mind that laws are way more relaxed in Europe, Russia and the Eastern Bloc. How many Korean women are getting the procedure done? Why so many Sonagi? Did all the 2,500 partial birth abortion victims have down syndrome? Did these tri-semester down syndrome babies pose a medical threat to their mothers? Or perhaps the mental strain of giving birth to a down syndrome babies posed an overall threat to the health of the pregnant women that it necessitated a partial birth abortion?
Really sad.
The first link did not work, Sumo. The second contained testimony given by a nurse in 1996 regarding an abortion performed in 1993 on a 26 1/2 week old fetus allegedly with Downs Syndrome. I did not read about a near-term fetus aborted because of the mother’s psychological state. I do not wish to see this thread hijacked into an abortion debate, but I will state for the record that my views are in line with a majority of Americans who support limited abortion based on the development of the fetus and the health of the mother. Downs Syndrome is fatal neither to the baby nor to the mother and thus I feel is insufficient grounds for a late-term abortion.
If you feel the need to comment further, please save it for the weekend thread.
18:
this is pathetic and cowardly. those two words pretty much sum up korea’s military responses thru out history.
Actually, Korean troops were among the most feared in Vietnam, and Korean troops, some of whom had experience in Vietnam, did a very effective job of provoking and then ending the Kwangju uprising. Not that many Koreans want to remember those parts of their history…
Koreans are too much in love with Kimilsungism and reversal is not in sight… It will be a long time when they realize what they got into and may well be too late when they do..
Actually, after last summer’s debacle in Lebanon, begun with the abduction of an Israeli soldier (or was it two?) by Hezbollah, I would guess that all sides involved would think long and hard about what reaction would yield positive results. Not the same situation, of course, but not entirely different either. (Same same, but different?) The soldier(s) have still not been released. Giving into demands would obviously create a dangerous precedent, and that is not going to happen. If the Taliban hostage takers have indeed broken up into tiny bands and dispersed into the mountains, we might just expect a long drawn out situation similar to that of the hostage taking incidents of the 80’s in Lebanon. How long was Terry Anderson held? The most awful thing here is that the ball is in the Taliban’s court. court.
Sonagi, Karzai has not been an amazing leader, still he did come to power in a fairly democratic manner. My point up there is more that Koreans are demanding that the U.S. intervene in another country’s domestic affairs, a demand that has so many levels of irony I don’t know where to begin.
#92
Korean troops were feared because of their cruelty.
# 96,
It’s because they were effective and cruel. The two are not mutually exclusive. See http://www.time.com/time/magaz.....id=googlep
Their alleged cruelty to civilian populations appear to be overblown however. There was a professional discussion about this in the major Korean Studies threads awhile back and the conclusion was that there is a lack of reliable documentary evidence to support wide spread Korean cruelty to civilian Vietnamese.
Ok Sonagi, out of respect for the fact that you a liberal that actually tries to live by what you preach I will. The first link includes a period at the end that does not belong there. Take a look and see if it piques your interest.
Sumo, you appear to be off your meds. Delusions of ‘liberal conspiracy’ and global liberal evil are swirling. Eat lithium now. Sit down. Breath deeply. Wait.
Chung Dong-young, along with the Roh Administration, are complete embarrassments for the Korean nation. I feel absolutely embarrassed by these imbeciles. Now, these are the ones who are supposedly trying to get Korea “free” of “American control”. Then now, why are these imbeciles blaiming America for our problem? Such hypocrisy! These individuals truly have the mentality of a slave, and should never have gotten control of this country.
97
sorry, I did not know this blog was the bible of korean studies. Talk to some Vietnamese who experienced first hand or some of the Korean soldiers who were there. Additionally, I believe there were several reports about this in Newsweek and other publications.
The reason I believe they were effective is because their cruelty was widely known and people were very afraid of them. Much like the police force in Korea was once widely feared.
Is this the same Hugh who kept supporting Roh and the Uri party? How did that work out with your friends? Still waving that progressive flag?