I’m taking this with a grain of salt, but according to the Joongang-Ilbo, it seems like that some in the MND are quietly pushing and planning for the military option in Afghanistan. According to outside military experts the so called plan may involve two ROK Army Special Forces brigades, one ROKMC infantry regiment, and supporting troops to deploy to Ghazni province and hunt down the Taliban. No word on whether this plan also includes the hostage rescue, but from the looks of it, it sounds more like a retaliatory operation than a rescue operation.
Of course, the ROK contingent won’t exactly be self sufficient. The MND will probably ask for the U.S. to provide support in the form of intelligence, helicopters, armored vehicles, artillery, and Close Air Support.
Time will tell whether or not the above plan becomes a reality. But, IMO considering the options available to the S. Korean government so far, it seems like the military option may be the only viable option to sitting on one’s rear end while hoping for the best.
83 Comments
As one of the so-called “America-hating Korean left,” that this blog loves to falaciously deride, I am for such a revenge attack. Eye for a “fucking USA” eye, is what I say.
Maybe we can be like the US, too, and self-righteously violate Afghan sovereignty and kill Afghan civilians “on accident.”
Hahaha… I am of course just joking. Thanks min. The military option has been discussed for some time now, as you know. And there are many problems with it… Having said that:
A military response should be on the table. I mean, if the ROK government is seriously considering such an option — as I have said before — then it ought to be done carefully and with as much ally cooperation and percision as is possible.
But as I said on this blog before, and else where in the blogosphere, the media and we civilians likely have no idea what is really being negotiated. We have no idea to what extent the Afghan, US and ROK gov’ts are or are not cooperating. Such talks would be kept very secret for obvious reasons.
Comments???
There will be a retaliation. Roh cannot let this go without serious damage to his legacy. But I am sure there is a lot screaming going on in the Blue House right now:
Liberal Korean: Let them die and pin it on America.
Pragmatic Liberal Korean: Look, the people will blame America first but it will boomerang and hit us as well–we can’t let it go.
Liberal Korean: I don’t care. I am organizing a rally, right now.
Pragmatic Liberal Korean: Not yet, not yet, first get someone willing to go with a crap load of cash to these nuts and then . . . well and then.
Roh: I am a lawyer. I am smart. I am a lawyer.
Liberal Korean: You heard the man, pin it on America.
Pragmatic Liberal Korean: You dumbnut, we going to have to clean up the mess! The news will cycle over and over taking away our agenda with the North!
those units will be delivered into the region by the US air force as well as not to mention ground support, translators, among other things.
Is this mission being planned now? a week later or what?
US delta force and seal teams can be inserted normally within 24 hours ready to strike.
can the same be said for the ROK’s who probably never leave the peninsula? regardless i hope they go and kick some taliban ass and their government should have been planning this last week.
the size of the units seem more like ranger/airborne troops as opposed to real SF units that operate in teams of 4-8 men with small arms.
ultimately atleast they are doing something
Amother option, not that it’s “viable” or right, is to offer the taliban so much money they can’t refuse it. That would be a mistake, but it’s possible enough cash will change their minds since the taliban is basically like the mafia.
Sad but true. How did the Koreans go from being the most feared group by Charlie in the Vietnam war to bunch of wussies? Oh yeah, Chung Hee ain’t in charge anymore.
I’m sure they’re cooperating just swimmingly. Which would explain why Cheong Wa Dae would release a statement like this:
You don’t need to be a Georgetown SFS grad to figure out what that means.
Of course, then again, maybe I’m just being fallacious.
Good news if true. They actually can do a fair amount without our help, as they have C-130s and plenty of helos (even CH-47s, the helo of choice for high altitude ops).
Does Korea even have special forces? I thought all Korean males were busy chanting anti-American/Japanese songs.
I mean what would they do in Afghanistan? Storm the huts while the terrorists blow themselves up with the hostages?
Sounds like a real plan there.
The article doesn’t say, but if it is currently being planned, I don’t think the process has moved beyond the conceptual stage.
ROK SF units do look like airborne units considering that they are organized into brigades and even during training exercises wear black berets and uniforms with unit insignias sewed on. However, their main role is special operations and to emphasize that their combat uniforms are different than the ones worn by regular ROKA troops.
If they attempt this, I’ll actually start respecting them again.
It could be a big moment for the country. No longer a colony with a colonized mentality.
Also, the ROKA does have separate Ranger units. These are the guys that have parachute wings sewed on to their camouflaged ball caps.
우리는 인질 문제 해결 과정에서 국제사회가 견지해온 원칙적으로 잘 알고 있습니다. 그러나 많은 소중한 민간인의 생명을 구하기 위해 이러한 원칙적 입장을 유연하게 적용하는 것은 인도적 관점에서도 충분한 가치가 있습니다. 우리는 국제사회가 무고한 민간인의 생명을 구하기 위한 이러한 노력을 지지해 줄 것을 호소합니다.
Well, what the heck does it mean?
Yeah combat forces would work until one of them was killed then people would demand they withdraw.
Can you imagine if it were friendly fire that killed a noble Korean soldier? Or two?
Oh my! That would get the Koreans going for a few years.. Candlelight protests all over the country. Esl teachers randomly assaulted night after night.
Good times!
The problem will be special ops missions in the desert, which they have no training for.
It’s safe to assume if we are talking about this right now the OPSEC of this mission is jeopardized and the taliban probably know they are coming or might come.
Also they may be special forces but the training they receive is unique to Korea and the situation here. They are inclined to do special ops stuff regarding North Korean ops
There are some hurdles but obviously I am sure they want to help it’s up to their government to have the guts to send them.
#15.
Gee, I don’t know. I think they’ll manage.
Afghanistan: barren mountainous terrain, hot during the day, cold at night. Heavy snowfall in the winter.
North Korea: barren mountainous terrain, hot during the day, cold at night. Heavy snowfall in the winter.
Yeah, but the real question is… does Afghanistan have four seasons? And, if so, which one is occurring now? Do you have those answers, SomeguyinKorea?? DO YOU?!
I smell village massacres, and attrocities… hells yeah!
You are right Miguel,
Afghanistan does not have four seasons. The Koreans are screwed!
I am afarid, this will be useles. Korean special forces might be very good (I think they are), but without intelligence apart from provided by the US, in an unfamiliar terrain, without any language and cultural expertise… No chances to do anything but to create even more mess. Actually, very bad situation.
It’s clear all the Korean special forces need to do is silently penetrate the bedrooms of the Taliban, turn on their electric fans, and close all the doors and windows on their way out.
Operation Silent Killer.
The only counter-terrorism actions that the korean military is capable of conducting in afghanistan will be conducted through ‘professional PC gamers,’ shooting it out FPS (fist person shooter) style.
No, send in the Korean Kristian Kavalry. Flood Afghanistan with Korean Kristians and throw in some “holy mother god creator” followers and moonies to boot. The taliban will fold in a day
someguyinkorea #16
you offered a lot to the debate
thanks
sure they will manage just drop them in and give it a go
thats why bases in louisiana, and california have been set up for desert training, and dersert operations just because its walk in the park
smash and grab job for the ROK military
mateomiguel #17
Priceless. Had to pick myself up from the floor…didn’t see that coming.
Yeah. Those are obviously dedicated to training for the Afghanistan mission. It’s not like the US military is conducting (or in danger of conducting) operations in any other locales which could be considered desert environments.
Let me see. The US military is going to pick up the Korean special forces and provide them with intel and pics. Then they will recon the area and give them a lift via heli to the area because of the inability of the KSF to HALO. Then they will escort the KSF to the target zone. Well shucks ladies . . . they might as well help hold the rifle barrels and help aim them too. And this is the armed forces that suppose to stop the Norks. I tell you what, get twenty guys from prison, put them on an island and train them to kill Stani’s–crappy KSF, yeah they can do a lot of pushups but that about sums it up.
Okay, first of all assuming that the Korean combat troops are sent to Afghanistan, the troops that are being sent are Special Forces and Marines, which receive some of the toughest training in the ROK military. So despite the unfamiliar terrain, I’m sure they will be able to handle themselves.
Second, there is no word on the TO&E, but if they are sent, my guess is they will sent rapidly as intact units, and won’t go through the several months long process that the Zaytun and the Dongmyung(Lebanon) units went through. Since they are deploying rapidly, there is a possiblity that they won’t take any heavy gear such as helicopters with them, which I might add takes time to disassemble, ship, assemble, and test fly. Besides the fastest way to ship helos is by C-5s, 17s, or An-124s and if memory serves correctly in the case of the C-5 and An-124, they can carry only 3 CH-47s at a time.
So, considering the above, in addition to rifles and machine guns, the heaviest gear of the Korean contingent will most probably be 81mm mortars and shoulder-fired anti-tank weapons.
Which means that the Korean contingent will have to rely on U.S. or NATO countries for heavy equipment support.
Of course, if the Korean contingent takes its time, then it may be able to bring in helicopters, artillery pieces, and light armored vehicles, but considering the situation, I doubt that is an option.
That is assuming that they are ordered to deploy.
Is the Korean left screaming for Taliban blood? Or are they sitting back quivering and blaming America?
Lol… an amusing stream of discussion here. Interesting time to be a fly on the wall of the MFAT or JCS. All you can do is stay tuned… not many males left in the group. What happens then??
People are reacting to this event as if the Taliban were some sort of large, dangerous glacier. Or perhaps a pack of wandering bears. Whose fault is it that the Korean Christians are hostages now? The Korean Christian’s fault. Whose fault is it if they get killed? The people who failed to rescue them, which could be any among Korea, Afghan, or US officials. But who is cursing the name of the Taliban? Not enough people. Aren’t the Taliban responsible for their actions?
#17. Dude, Google isn’t just for finding free porn sites, you know.
You won’t hear too much criticism against the Taliban from Ut Videam, Blueballs, or most of the other blokes on this blog; they’re practically Taliban sympathizers. Moral relativism is known to do that.
The ROK has 7 Special Forces brigades and host of other special ops units. The ROK Marines have 2 divisions and one brigade. This is a lot of combat power available to conduct an operation in Afghanistan. What is most important about these soldiers and marines is that they are all volunteers and well trained.
These units are highly capable and many of these soldiers do not train solely in Korea. Many individual ROK military personnel and occasionally entire units train in the US. I haven’t been to a US military school that didn’t have some ROK soldiers in it.
However, I do not see the ROK military conducting any rescue mission. If a rescue mission is to happen it will be led by the US and maybe have quiet participation from the ROK Delta though I think unlikely.
I think it makes more sense that MND is maybe lobbying the Roh Administration to cut a deal with the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners in return for the ROK sending a large combat contingent to Afghanistan.
I just don’t see the Roh administration doing something as bold as this. Such a policy would require leadership and statesmanship which is something Roh does not possess.
Such a deal would free the Korean hostages while at the same time helping the Afghan government survive the domestic political beating they would take by releasing a bunch of Taliban killers.
#33 - Another cheap shot ad hominem utterly unsupported by facts brought to you by YoungRocco2, this board’s resident troll.
“…they’re practically Taliban sympathizers.”
Don’t make a fool out of yourself, Young Rocco.
#20, 28,
Of course, they would be able rely on support of the NATO troops. It’s not as if they would be fighting their own little war, after all.
Besides, trucks and other support equipment can be flown in.
Come on rocco, you can do better than that. Are you telling me you crawled out from under your rock just to mimic pawi’s tired chickenshit? See here for your answer:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ment-99326
That ship already sailed.
Seriously rocco, keep up the good work. Watching you and pawi trying to paint everyone here as Taliban sympathizers and bloodthirsty racists out for Korean scalps is a fucking hoot. You may want to consult mrchips before your next attack though. He brought out the Bin Laden and Stalin comparisons, and to be honest, I was quite flattered.
Whose going to pay for this? The Korean tax-payers? I hope to god they seize all assets from that church that sent them there for there 10 day “mission”, and make them pay for all expenses incurred in setting these people free.
Then they want to let Taliban fighters to go free to kill more innocent Afghans, and coalition fighters, while they get sent back to Seoul to feel shame. I hope these hostages get freed, but jesus, someone needs to be held accountable here for letting them get that far in the first place.
It’s too late to surprise the enemy.
Ask Afghanistan if they will trade off prisoners for hostages with the aggreement that the ROK MIL will commit “a three thousand man SF force (with rear support) for an extended period of time” to help fight the Taliban.
If yes, okay, then prep your forces and go to war.
Well, it is true he could never have imagined this happening. I would say though never, ever underestimate a truly motivated human being for they will come back to surprise one every time.
R. Elgin,
I have never been surprised by President Roh, he has been consistently incompetent. For the sake of the hostages I hope this consistency ends.
Ask Kim Jong-il to threaten the Taliban. They will be nuked unless the Taliban release the hostages.
“thats why bases in louisiana, and california have been set up for desert training, and dersert operations just because its walk in the park”
California has a mountainous desert, and since it lies in the same latitude zone as Afghanistan, its climate conditions would be similar. Lousiana has no desert; its humid, moist subtropical climate and lush, flat terrain are nothing like the climate and terrain of Afghanistan.
Unfortunately, Korea is more likely to adopt its usual stance of trying to get its nose up Uncle Sam’s ass while “presenting” it’s own for the taking.
The cat is already out of the bag:
RE: #46
(Hit post too soon)….But the Military is not Korean.
And from the AP report:
Bold is my emphasis. So how many dead hostages will it take for the Blue House to realize that dialogue is not working? I’d think that one, and now two is two too many….
#2 “There will be a retaliation. Roh cannot let this go without serious damage to his legacy.”
Yes, there has to be a retaliation, but not necessarily a logical one. It would be far easier and cheaper to blame the U.S. And is there anyone out there trying to protect Roh’s ‘legacy’?
#9 “ROK SF units do look like airborne units considering that they are organized into …”
They’re trained in the same skill sets as their U.S. counterparts, but they have a different personality and feel. USSOF thrive on decentralization and tend to ignore the traditional sense of hierarchy based on rank (i.e. calling each other by first names, letting junior team members lead a certain mission if they are the most qualified to do so.) That just doesn’t fly in the ROK military culture! Those ROK SOF and Marines are usually very tough dudes, though.
#20 “I am afraid, this will be useless. Korean special forces might be very good (I think they are), but without intelligence apart from provided by the US, in an unfamiliar terrain, without any language and cultural expertise… No chances to do anything but to create even more mess. Actually, very bad situation.”
I disagree. First of all, they can operate with the coalition to get any support they lack. Second of all, they’re fairly smart fellers and can probably read a map. Unfamiliar with the language and culture? Not much more so that when US forces first got there. Most importantly, they send a political message that taking hostages from Korea does the OPPOSITE of what the bad guys want.
#27 “Let me see. The US military is going to pick up the Korean special forces and provide them with intel and pics.”
Yeah, probably if they operate as a member of the coalition.
“Then they will recon the area and give them a lift via heli to the area because of the inability of the KSF to HALO.”
Probably no need to HALO or HAHO. A truck/donkey can normally get you within a few miles and then they walk. Less risky and easier than jumping, especially at night in the mountains.
#31 “Whose fault is it if they get killed? The people who failed to rescue them,…”
Er, no, that would be the people who killed them.
#34 “If a rescue mission is to happen it will be led by the US and maybe have quiet participation from the ROK Delta though I think unlikely.”
Or perhaps the other way around, where U.S. forces conduct the operation with a token contingent of ROK forces, who they let take the credit for the whole thing.
“I think it makes more sense that MND is maybe lobbying the Roh Administration to cut a deal with the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners in return for the ROK sending a large combat contingent to Afghanistan.”
Assuming the Afghan government is willing to let more bible-thumping Koreans into the country. Money may be the best way to negotiate with the Afghan government, too. Or by promising some free infrastructure (I wonder if Hyundai is over there?)
#39 “Whose going to pay for this? The Korean tax-payers?”
I agree. That’s one big reason why this will probably never happen.
[quote]I’m sure they’re cooperating just swimmingly. Which would explain why Cheong Wa Dae would release a statement like this:
우리는 인질 문제 해결 과정에서 국제사회가 견지해온 원칙적으로 잘 알고 있습니다. 그러나 많은 소중한 민간인의 생명을 구하기 위해 이러한 원칙적 입장을 유연하게 적용하는 것은 인도적 관점에서도 충분한 가치가 있습니다. 우리는 국제사회가 무고한 민간인의 생명을 구하기 위한 이러한 노력을 지지해 줄 것을 호소합니다.
You don’t need to be a Georgetown SFS grad to figure out what that means.[/quote]
Of course, then again, maybe I’m just being fallacious.
I apologize in advance for the quote marks. I’m trying to figure out how to do it myself.
Anyway, Mr. Gtown SFS grad, a Korean-English translation would be nice for us poor Ivy League saps who studied Chinese (and badly at that) instead…
It looks like my attempts to guess quotes are 0 for 2.
In the meantime, I think the answer to this problem can be summed up in 2 words:
잭 바우어
“잭 바우어”
I was thinking more generally in terms of 아자 아자 화이팅!
I’m guessing that nobody here is familiar with the Korean experience in Vietnam. Professional, well led Korean troops (not the typical conscripts mind you) can be quite effective in anti-guerilla warfare environments. Yes, it is true. Charlie feared Dai Han troops, with or without a weapon in his hand, mind you.
If the Taliban kills the remaining 21 hostages I say send in 3,000 to 5,000 combat troops. Send in the Korean Marines. Send in the Korean Special Forces. Make necklaces out of the ears of dead Taliban and tie them to your jeep like the Koreans did in Nam. I want the Taliban to have the fear of God in them if they do in fact kill the hostages. Rebel organizations, not just the Taliban, need to know that there will be a price you pay if you harm South Korean citizens. That’s the only way you can make these brutes think twice before they do such things.
Go “Choi Seung Hui” on them fellas. Give’em hell.
Hwarang,
Money is probably what the ROK government has been trying to solve this crisis with since the beginning however its not working. That is possibly why the MND may be pushing for involvement of ROK SOF and Marines.
WangKon936, those days are long gone. A lot of people think the KSF can pull it off but you guys can it eat the crap out of your eyes. Special forces need real missions to work out what works, who should command and what not to do. Take for example, the Iran debacle. Its failure was not due to the lack of experts, in fact, one of the advisors was Richard Marchinko himself. The KSF if sent now would be slaughtered unless they are paired side by side with US operators telling them what to do every step of the way.
I’m starting to wonder why the missionaries would place themselves or would be placed in danger like that.
Someguy, are you implying a conspiracy or something? I really think it’s little more than pure naivete meets harsh cold reality. Just a week or so before this all happened, I met a missionary who said she was going to Afghanistan (I don’t think she was in this group, though). I asked her, “Isn’t it dangerous?” Whereby she replied something like, “We will have divine protection, so I’m not afraid.” At the time, I assumed that a steady stream of Korean missionaries had already gone to Afghanistan, so was merely concerned rather than shocked or too worried. But with this incident, I’m wondering if I was mistaken in this assumption, or is it that this particular group was extremely stupid or unlucky? Korean Christians are very active in going on mission trips to other countries, so I assumed that some had already gone to Afghanistan.
The Russian special forces units were pretty good but they got asses handed to them in Terror Central. For some reason, a lot the folks think the KSF can pull it off despite a reasonable doubt that the KSF is any better than the Russians during the 80’s. You liberal Nork butt kissing commies are the reason why Korea’s military sucks so bad that sending their sorry asses to the place is tatamount to a suicide mission. You all cry “Vietnam” but let’s not forget the man who would have the will to deal with terrorists in the first place. You elected Roh you morons. Elections have consequences.
That was 30 years ago, in a totally different Korea. Today’s KSF have zero “anti-guerrilla warfare environments” experience. In Iraq they stay in their barracks. And in Korea, well, they camp in extreme weather and walk the demarcation line, checking the integrity of the concertina wires. That’s about it.
They don’t train in real hostile environment, they don’t participate to peace-keeping missions [Kosovo? Ivory Coast? Lebanon? Haiti?]. I don’t think we need more dead Koreans in Afghanistan…
# 57,
Missionaries of all backgrounds have been doing crazy things like that for almost 2,000 years. How else do you blue eyed, blond barbarians discard your pagan gods and take up a monotheistic religion? Missionary work can be dangerous, whether it be a converted Roman going into a camp of blood drinking Visigoths, a Franciscan monk going into a village full of Heron Indians or a Jesuit getting nailed to a cross in Tokugawa Japan. The Bible says to go out there and do it, he says he’ll be with you, but he never said that he’ll always be providing you a bullet proof (or spear proof) vest.
# 59,
I have no doubt that the quality of conscripts in Korea nowadays have declined. If troops should be sent to Afghanistan, they should be the best in the Korean armed forces, right? Do you honestly know if Roh’s action (or inaction) have harmed the quality of the Korean Marines or Special Forces? If you do, please speak. If you don’t, then STFU. Properly supplied and supported, I’m sure they can do a fine job.
Please, do tell us — with proof — of a few *recent* feasts of bravery performed by Korean Armed Forces. I am curious, and would be delighted to be enlightened…
Liberals . . . how disgusting. Navy Seal guys pull a paycheck for about 40K to 50K a year and often pass on opportunities to earn big bucks as mercs. It ain’t about the pay with these guys. That is something a liberal will never understand. To a liberal, special forces are simply a techocratic tool to be used by the state. Maybe these guys want to fight for their nation but it is hard when the head honcho is the very communist liberal red bastard you were trained to fight in the first place. And if you are the liberal presidente’ then you have an obligation to go out of your way to hand out medals and mend the fences with the men and women who protect the country instead of ignoring them and undermining them and cutting their budgets.
# 62
I believe that’s called the fallacy of Contradictory Premise.
You are asking me an illogical question because South Korea has not been in any military actions of scale since 1972.
In any case, are you asking me that real life experience is important? Absolutely. Is it required? No. Remember when the Japanese Embassy in Peru was taken over by Shining Path guerillas in 1997? Now Peru does not have a track record special forces style assaults, but they performed admirably in freeing the hostages in the Japanese embassy. Actually, I don’t think the boys in Delta could have done a better job (although they would probably disagree). The Peruvian special forces probably got some training in the U.S., but so do Korean special forces also.
WangKon936 . . . sigh . . . the Peruvians had extensive experience fighting commies in the jungle alongside with scores of American special forces, the CIA, and the occasional Gurka or two. They were very good at what they did. But not only that they were led by a strong willed president of Japanese ancestry who did not take crap from anyone, but it took months to do the job and he was willing to do whatever it took to kill them all.
Remember that all the ROK marines were feared in Nam, not just the special forces group. Experience does matter. Americans are unique because they are willing to learn from their mistakes and implement changes necessary to win. Even in Nam they were evolving and getting better. There was no shred of doubt that the ROK under Chung Hee was willing to fight the Norks because Chung Hee would have been right there on the battlefield unlike the so called “progressive” liberal communist bastards we now have running the show.
Before using big words, try to spell the small ones correctly, too.
It’s not an illogical question, au contraire! That’s precisely the point: since Korea hasn’t been in military action for three decades, there’s little doubt they lack the proper experience. Training is good but only goes this far, since it never ever equates real life. Even successful rescue assaults, like say the Air France flight 8969, or Kolwezi, didn’t go as planned, and the only reason the boys still finished the job is that they have enough real-life experience to adapt to a moving situation. Korean forces don’t have that experience, and while it would be good for them to go and learn some, I wouldn’t bet on a success for a first-time mission.
“Americans are unique because they are willing to learn from their mistakes and implement changes necessary to win.”
I have to disagree with you there. Either you are not well versed in the history of warfare or you are just ignorant of it. All groups and peoples well versed in war also learn and adapt. As Napoleon said, “You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.” He, of course, said this during his exile in the isle of St. Helena, when all of Europe finally learned to counter his tactics.
America is great at focusing a lot of firepower on fixed targets or disabling military forces requiring a lot of infrastructure. Meaning there isn’t currently a nation state on the face of the earth that cannot withstand America’s military force once it’s given free reign to unleash it’s firepower. They are also good at clandestine operations (particularly with right wing proxies) against insurgent elements that have not deeply penetrated into the local population. Where they have shown a history of being bad at is understanding the third world mind and world view and fighting guerilla movements that have deeply penetrated the population. General Vo Nguyen Giap knew this and he knew how to beat America. I wouldn’t be suprised if his books were on the reading lists of some Al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders.
#65,
Ferreting out leftist guerillas in the hills and jungles is very different then hostage rescue. For example, the U.S. would probably send Green Berets to fight insurgents in the jungle but would probably send a special team of Deltas for blasting into an embassy to rescue hostages. Peruvian forces had to actually retrain for hostage rescue (with possible U.S. SF help, although not proven).
My point is two fold: 1) the U.S. does not have a monopoly on capable military forces and 2) A “de jour” dismissal of Korean SF capabilities was uncalled for in light of the absence of logical rationale.
“Americans are unique because they are willing to learn from their mistakes and implement changes necessary to win.”
Shhh,Sumo. It’s our national secret weapon. Now that you’ve let the cat out of the bag, we can expect more pretenders to the throne of superpower world hegemony.
US loss in Vietnam was voluntary. Furthermore, US troops were fighting a two front war, one tragically at home. Well, I guess the boys get rescued and got to enjoy their drug and sex culture back at home and be part of the hippie thing, but that left Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia set back 20 years in economic standards and under communism.
There was no way North Vietnam even stood a chance without Chinese and Soviet support. I don’t think they accomplished much militarily that is brilliant. They used all the dirty tricks they could think of. Hide behind civilians. Use civilians. Civilians were combatants in Vietnam. Hurt civilians, US and ROK army gets shit all over their faces. Don’t deal with them, get sniped, bombed from the blind side.
If that’s what you’re referring to as 3rd world mentality, I guess I see your point. Same crap in Iraq, Afghan.
Make a supply cave underground route, outside of Vietnam borders, (thus US troops going there), attacking on the Vietnamese equivalent of Christmas Day. Tet offensive. Bloody and dirty. I think that’s what you mean by 3rd world mentality.
So, now Americans will probably never go to any war where more than 3 months stay is required. They prefer Gulf War 1, Bosnian War, etc.
I don’t know how America figured to stay in Korea for 3 years, but thank goodness they did. Korea would be Juche and the shit of the world without America.
didn’t Stalin, Mao, and Pot kill more people than documented under the entire human history? I’m sure they did.
America is fighting a cold war in Iraq.
If America was able to bomb out China in the Vietnam War, I think things would have ended in less than 1 year.
If America was able to bomb out China in the Korean War, I think there would be no Kim Dynasty in the North. Korea War duration = 1 year. Not 3.
If America is able to bomb out Syria and Iran in the present war, Iraq becomes quiet in a matter of 3 months. I have a hard time believing that Iraqis are bombing Iraqis celebrating a soccer game victory.
But, it’s so taboo to even mention it. Only feasible if Iran and Syria sends its regular army in army clothing crossing into Iraq borders, blazing and firing. This will happen when US pulls out, though. But, no concern in America. They watch Cambodia and Laos on the news, and felt content with it. So it will be with Iraq. But, somehow I foresee an upset in election 2008. It was very close in 2000, 2004.
China probably lost way more men getting involved in neighbor wars than US troops post 1945. However, you only hear about heroes in China.
In the US, you hear plenty about this being the wrong war, fascist state, American Imperialism, etc.
They’ll probably never make an anti-war film in China, showing the suffering of Chinese troops in the Korean War. The ending credits will never roll something like,
“…Li and Wu survived the war. Everyone else died. Many men died BECAUSE of Mao. It was an unnecessary war…”
You’ll see plenty of,
“…Li and Wu saved the Koreans from American Imperialism. Mao is great.”
I like to think that all US/NATO/Afgan govt intelligence assets are focused on trying to find the location of the Korean missionaries; if they can be located I would expect US or NATO hostage rescue teams to be used to attempt an operation, if the ROK govt will consent.
It would be nice to think that ROK special operations forces have been dispatched quietly to Afg. to work in conjunction with such an effort, regardless of their level of experience, I would expect them to have the fighting spirit to do an excellent job if allowed.
Of course this may never happen if they can’t locate where the missionaries are being held, or if in fact ROK diplomats in Afg. are frantically working to preclude such an effort while attempting to find intermediaries to pay ransom to.
The consensus here on this board seems to be that this latter option is what is likely to be happening, but I’m hoping for the former. If only to show the skeptics (I like to think of a Taliban guard closely perusing his copy of Gen Giap’s book just as the US/NATO/ROK hostage rescue team bursts through the door, but since Gen Giap is just one more infidel to the Taliban I sort of doubt that particular picture will ever be snapped….)
BTW, Wangkon, it’s “free rein” (not “reign”). Normally I wouldn’t point out homonym errors since I can’t always detect my own typos, but I thought this one needed noting, given that the overall tenor of your post is to debunk US counterinsurgent capabilities in Afg.
I will check minor spelling errors if someone pays me to write on this blog, otherwise my writing on here will simply be stream of consciousness between lunch breaks and the time between dinner and trips to the gym.
Btw… not trying to debunk U.S. SF capabilities anywhere. Have a lot of respect for U.S. SF capabilities.
“we can expect more pretenders to the throne of superpower world hegemony.”
Sonagi, I thought it was because the U.S. had the only intact industrial/military complex after WWII?
“didn’t Stalin, Mao, and Pot kill more people than documented under the entire human history? I’m sure they did.”
As far as murderous intent and remarkable ineptitude are concerned, all three of these tyrants deserve mention. Pol Pot, due to Cambodia’s much smaller population and his mere four years in power, didn’t kill nearly as many people as Stalin or Mao managed, but he may have caused the deaths of 15% or 20% of the country’s total population. (Kind of makes him the Division 3 scoring champion of genodical maniacs.)
Possibly millions of civilians have been killed directly or as an indirect result of US bombing since WWII, if you consider the Korean War, Vietnam War, and to a lesser extent, Panama, Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan. These days I genuinely believe a great deal of care is taken to avoid this, but when one is fighting guerillas/terrorists who using unconventional/illegal tactics, some civilian casualties - “collateral damage” is the sanitized term - cannot be avoided. Plus, mistakes happen. (Though I supposed this matters very little to an Iraqi or Afghani who loses his or her family in an airstrike.)
“genodical”
“Genocidal”, of course. Need coffee!
globalvillage #77:
“…Possibly millions of civilians have been killed directly or as an indirect result of US bombing since WWII, if you consider the Korean War, Vietnam War, and to a lesser extent, Panama, Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan….”
Ah, the “globalvillage” fearlessly speaks truth to power. The voice of the citizens of the world! Gotta stay in the face of the arrogant American superpower, especially since the worldcitizen is utterly confident that the simultaneously-evil-but-nevertheless-ominiscient Americans will always be there for him if/when the chips are really down.
How I wish I had the power to begin “winding down” that particular stance for all you fearless ones.
I liked the way you included the modifiers “possibly” and “indirect”, as that gives you substantial “wiggle room” when it comes to the burden of actually having to provide some documentation for these assertions of endless millions of deaths at the hand of the Americans.
My recollection of all these particular post-WWII conflictss you cite is that there were brutal invasions or attacks by tyrants and dictators prior to US involvement. Especially in the case of the ROK, where the US ended its occupation of the ROK in 1949, turned the government over to Korean citizens, and withdrew all its combat forces in the spring of that year.
And for that matter why did you make it a point to specifically exempt WWII? Millions of Japanese and German dead would have lent some credibility to your assertion
(though the Russians and British accounted for their fair share).
And we probably wouldn’t have been in any of these places you mention if we had just done what the Japanese expected us to do after Pearl Harbor — open negotiations for a peace, with the consequence of leaving the Republic of China and colonial Korea to whatever happy destiny awaited them in the late 40’s and 50’s at the hands of the Japanese empire.
Too bad we didn’t, as then all those unhappy “millions” of Chinese and Koreans, dead at the hands of the insane American cowboys, would no doubt have lived to a ripe old age and been able to smile down at their grandchildren.
Well, I reckon there’s still a chance for we Americans to learn from our previous sins. Let’s get out of the ROK before we become responsible for the deaths of more “millions” of innocent Koreans.
WangKon936 . . . sigh, another starcraft player, heh? Build and they will fight? Another FOB who gives out gold stars for effort. Let me see:
KSF leader: Sir, KSF cannot reach the target.
WangKon936: Do not worry, we obtained tickets through Cathay Pacific and got you seats going to India and from there we chartered a flight to Afghan.
KSF leader: Sir, KSF cannot find the target.
WangKon936: Hang tight young man. As you know I went to an American college and with my perfect English I am going to contact American intel for updated pics and have it emailed to your PDA. There done.
KSF leader: Target sighted, engage target?
WangKon936: Whoa, just hang on a minute. Remember, there is policy to consider. One sec . . . no, yes, well no, well maybe. OK guys, here is the word down the pipeline. We are going to pass on engagement but don’t worry we are extremely proud of you guys. You are not the USF but still you are very good at what you do. And the best part is the perspective you bring to the table. Maybe one day we will have orders to actually engage in real combat. Mission totally successful!
#80,
Hey, that was kinda funny, but… pointless.
1) I don’t play Starcraft.
2) I generally know what the f*ck I’m talking about so I’m not one of those “FOB” types molds you like to cast people in. Oh, how convenient. If there is someone you can’t effectively argue against you decide to slap the “FOB” moniker on ‘em then pat yourself on the back and convince yourself how smart you are and how dumb the guy you talked to just was.
3) I never said Korean SF would not need U.S. logistical and intelligence support. So… STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
You remind me of one of those little “ADD” kids in kindergarten that an ex-gf had to deal with. You know, the ones that can’t effectively communicate so they do so by being the class asshole; pulling the pigtails of the girl who sits behind ‘em and bitting the teacher’s legs while she’s sitting at her desk.
Let me see.
KSF cannot get to target without help.
KSF cannot find target without help.
KSF needs to borrow weapons to fight the targets.
Why again should the Taliban (or anybody, person or institution) respect the KSF?
Ah… but KSF will be there to put a bullet in Taliban’s head. Isn’t that what matters? Besides, what’s at risk? Sure the U.S. supplies, intel, insertion/extraction, communications gear, and perhaps weapons (do the KSF not have M4 carbines, M203 grenade launchers and claymore mines?) but there is less risk of a bullet going into an American now is there? Thus it’s a great deal. Korean hostages, let Korean SF life be risked. Lord knows how much it costs the American tax payer to train one of those guys.
Finally, is that any different from Vietnam? The Americans provided the Koreans most of their supplies, aerial intel, helicopter transport and weapons AND Dai Han still made Charlie piss in his pants. As a matter of fact most of what was written / observed on the Korean troops in Vietnam were by American forward observers, communications officers and helicopter pilots. Ever read “Vietnam Above the Treetops” by John Flanagan? He was a forward observer that helped call-up air cover and he was attached to Korean troops (I think Tiger Division). Interesting read worth checking out.
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[...] The Marmot’s Hole says Korean media site Joongang-Ilbo is reporting military action may be taken. I’m taking this with a grain of salt, but according to the Joongang-Ilbo, it seems like that some in the MND are quietly pushing and planning for the military option in Afghanistan. According to outside military experts the so called plan may involve two ROK Army Special Forces brigades, one ROKMC infantry regiment, and supporting troops to deploy to Ghazni province and hunt down the Taliban. No word on whether this plan also includes the hostage rescue, but from the looks of it, it sounds more like a retaliatory operation than a rescue operation. [...]
[...] expected the Roh Administration to be consistently incompetent in handling the hostage crisis and so far I have not been disappointed. The latest incompetency [...]