Update 3 (1:35 p.m., Tue 31 July 2007 (Korea Time)): Associated Press (AP) is now reporting that a Korean hostage’s body has been found in a village some 8 or 9 kilometres southwest of Ghazni. Says the AP: “The victim, who appeared to be in his late 20s or early 30s, was wearing white trousers and flip-flops, according to an [AP] reporter at the scene.” His body was found at daybreak Tuesday. May he rest in peace.
Original story: The sad, late news out of Afghanistan is that that Taliban are claiming that a second hostage has been killed. According to the Agence France-Presse (AFP; via Yahoo!), a Taliban spokesman has claimed that a hostage by the name of “Sung Sin” was killed Monday evening. Whether the hostage was male or female wasn’t explicitly stated, but the language used indicated that he was a man. According to Yonhap (in Korean; via Naver), this may be Shim Sung-min, a captive with the most similar-sounding name. Going back to the AFP report, his body is claimed to have been dumped in the Qarabagh area of Ghazni, the same place where pastor Bae Hyung-kyu’s body was dumped. The Afghan government has been investigating unconfirmed reports that two hostages were killed, but the Taliban are only claiming one. Talks have broken down, according to a Ghazni parliamentarian. The kidnappers have thus far refused even to let the female hostages go.
No matter what you may think of Christians, or why this group was travelling around the Afghan countryside in an unguarded bus, or why they were in Afghanistan in the first place, this has turned into a very sad state of affairs. Every summer, churches and Christian organizations organize youth trips for a variety of purposes—be they mission trips, or for the sake of providing aid or charity. Despite rumours to the contrary, there is no positive evidence so far that this trip was not for charitable purposes first and foremost. This seems to have been a journey of Christian youth with good intentions gone horribly, terribly wrong. Apart from the pastoral staff, they are young kids having their faith sorely tested in an environment that couldn’t be any more different from the comfortable lives they enjoyed back in Korea. There will be time for analysis and questioning later, but for the time being, let us pray (or hope, for those who don’t pray) that the remaining captives will be freed without further bloodshed.
Update (5:55 a.m., Tue 31 July 2007 (Korea Time)): Yonhap has an English-language story up now, where the presumed victim’s name is spelled as “Shim Sung-min.” I’ve updated the spelling of his name accordingly in this post.
Update 2 (7:30 a.m., Tue 31 July 2007 (Korea Time)): By the way, for those who think only Koreans care about this issue, you may want to check out Michelle Malkin’s ongoing coverage of the story.
Update 3 (2:24pm Tuesday Korea Time, added by Robert Koehler): The Foreign Ministry has confirmed that Shim Seong-min was murdered by his kidnappers.
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85 Comments
… there is no positive evidence so far that this trip was not for charitable purposes first and foremost…
Thank you for injecting some common sense into this discussion. I’m shocked–well, not really–at how those who are most likely to condemn Christians for being “judgmental” are so quick to judge the motivation behind this group.
“Despite rumours to the contrary, there is no positive evidence so far that this trip was not for charitable purposes first and foremost. “
The only pictures I’ve seen depict prayer, praise, and modeling Islamic headgear. Is there positive evidence of charitable works by the group?
Nevertheless, the news reports of a second murder are stomach-turning. These good-hearted people do not deserve their fate at the hands of the Taliban.
Their motivations and purposes are largely irrelevant. They are a Christian group that went into an active war zone known for being hostile to Christians, they laughed in the face of numerous government warnings, failed to provide for their own security, traveled openly in a luxury bus when they should have kept a low profile, and completely ignored the standard protocols for aid groups that regularly work in Afghanistan.
Their charitable intentions aren’t worth squat if they were so brazenly ignorant of the dangers and unfathomably stupid enough not to take the danger seriously with proper security measures.
The evidence of motivation is crystal clear, and comes from the pictures, writings, and documents provided straight from the missionaries themselves. Next you’ll criticize those that “judge” the sun for being hot.
Just to pre-empt the inevitable claims:
Yes, I have a heart.
Yes, I would like to see the hostages released safely.
No, I’m not a card-carrying member of the Taliban.
Yes, I agree with the Kabul position of not trading Taliban prisoners for hostages.
Yes, those that actually deserve tremendous sympathy are the friends and families of the hostages, who are also suffering tremendously, but not by a result of their own ignorance and arrogance.
And finally Yes, the US will once again be the Korean scapegoat du jour regardless of how this fiasco ends. Just see this beaut of a finale from a Korea Times editorial for a preview:
The U.S. government, for its part, is also asked to be more positive in resolving the issue. We understand that it faces a dilemma in dealing with the matter. It cannot easily accept the Taliban’s demand for the release of the prisoners yet cannot ignore the need to save the hostages. But as the Taliban demonstrated their cruelty once again, it needs to roll up its sleeves to resolve the case. It is the best way for it to avoid possible criticism in the event of a disastrous scenario.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww....._7287.html
See that, superpower? Roll up your sleeves and get to work bailing out Korea, or the protests and hanwill rain down with a furious vengeance. And then when your World Police ass is done saving the day, immediately go back to respecting Korea’s sovereignty and treating her as an “equal,” or you’ll face more criticism for your “reckless interventions.”
This Yonhap news release shows a photo of the man presumed murdered:
http://english.yonhapnews.co.k.....0315F.HTML
“And finally Yes, the US will once again be the Korean scapegoat du jour regardless of how this fiasco ends. Just see this beaut of a finale from a Korea Times editorial for a preview”
If you’re fluent in Korean, IHBB, check out the message boards on the hostage crisis. Not a hotbed of anti-Americanism despite a government-inspired Korean media campaign to shift responsibility to Uncle Sam. This, however, could change if the Taliban continue killing one by one.
I hope that holds, but the sheep usually follow the shepherd. The infamous tank accident didn’t create a hotbed initially either (World Cup did its job of harnessing all the nationalistic fever), but the relentless media sparks eventually turned that into an all-out inferno.
My condolences and thoughts go to families of killed hostages and pray for the rest hostages to return home safely, ASAP.
Al-Jazeera video coverage with images of some of the women has been uploaded to Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ9fTNv2upU
Korean language biodata on the second murdered hostage:
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....ction_id=7
He was single and had done volunteer work with farmers while on leave from his IT job and eventually quit in order to go to graduate school.
This Yonhap story is claiming that the US is standing in the way of a hostage for prisoner swap:
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....ction_id=7
Check out the message board at the bottom. The fish aren’t biting.
This story on netizen reactions includes a couple of quotes from commenters who feel the US, as an ally of South Korea, should intervene actively to secure the release of the hostages. The most rec’d messages on the related board make no mention of the US. While browsing another news board, I did see one post blaming Bush and the US for the hostage crisis. I guess if you dig hard enough, you can find whatever you’re looking for. I do admire the persistence of the Korean media in trying to foment public pressure on the Bush administration.
The ones who should really be worried are the Muslims here. If these murders of hostages continue, the local Muslim community is going to feel the heat big time.
Then again, Koreans are unpredictable. For example, a bizarre but frequent response to these killings (judging by the netizen comments) is anger that the men are dying first. “Is it a crime to be a man?” etc.
I was kind of hoping it wouldn’t come to this since they kept delaying the deadline.
While I agree with everything said in #3, I think lessons have been learned, or were learned the day the hostages were taken in.
Still, Christian-affiliated mission groups will continue to do work in Muslim countries at their own risk, even after this tragedy. But maybe Korean Christian groups will do so more cautiously from now on or with greater care.
Regardless of my opinions about that, my sympathies go out to the families of the victims and the surviving captives who lost a friend. I hope no more lives are lost over this and I also hope an international blame game isn’t launched at anyone - be it Islam, the U.S. or the negotiating parties.
“There will be time for analysis and questioning later, but for the time being, let us pray (or hope, for those who don’t pray…”
Sewing, I wish you hadn’t put that first part in. Your message logically says, “this is NOT the time for analysis and questioning”. It spoiled an otherwise thoughtful post, particularly as it accompanies your own analysis.
It is entirely possible to engage in tasteful “analysis and questioning” while also “hoping or praying”.
Anyone with a heart and a brain feels horrible about what is happening to these innocent (though naive) young people and their families. Discussing it doesn’t negate this.
Perhaps you can sound the all-clear to inform us when you feel it IS the “time for analysis and questioning”. Given how things are going, my guess is it’s going to be a long while.
What the U.S. needs to do is have the Korean government send combat troops in to kick some ass, a la Vietnam.
Here’s what I think. Any extremist is by definition, irrational. Now, the U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists (read that extremists)because they are irrational. And to expect rational behavior (read that negotiations) from irrational people is, quite simply, an unreasonable expectation (read that irrational). It would be the same as expecting a parinoid schizophrenic to behave like a non-mentally-ill person.
Now, these terrorist do not represent the whole Muslem community, I think we can all agree on this. Nor do these misguided Korean missionaries represent the whole of Christians in Korea. Now however misguided they were for going into Afghanistan at this point and time, and however much we would like to see as many of them as possible return to their homes safe and secure (we simply cannot kill people for being stupid, we would have to let the majority of the human race die out), we still cannot negotiate with the terrorists. It is just simply irrational.
Sorry #12, but I have no problem blaming Islam for this. If these were southern baptists I (and lots of other westerners) would have no trouble lining up to sneer and slam them.
Islam gets some kind of ‘free pass’ and it irks me. Every slaughter they perpetrate (and the list grows on and on), prime ministers and presidents fight to be the first to piously pronounce on TV blatherings about “This is not the real Islam” etc etc and express worry over whether those unfortunate muslims living high on the welfare checks of their christian neighbors might be the victims of .. well, apparently of enduring a negative word or two.
The real Islam? Who should I believe - my eyes, or the pious words of our elites? The deep scholarly knowledge George Bush, Tony Blair etc have of Islam, or actual Islamic scholars in country after country demanding the submission of me and all my kaffir (subhuman infidel) kind?
#15: While I agree that the world’s sense of political correctedness has reached absurd levels, I don’t think you blaming the relgion is justified. It’s more political in this case, don’t you think? Religion is just being used as a cover-up.
Out of curiosity, have you ever lived in an Islamic country?
I have lived in moderate one for over a year - as an American woman - and have gone on business trips to a moderate Muslim country in the past. I’m not saying it was a rosy experience but it certainly wasn’t representative of what we see on T.V.
Like it is with the world of Christian evangelists and the differing degrees of their religious approaches, if you can’t see a difference between extremists and the rest, you’re not seeing the whole picture at all.
#15
I suppose by that standard, we should be holding Christianity at-large responsible for Jonestown, the Branch Davidian mess, abortion clinic bombings, the KKK… I have no problem doing this — organized religion on the whole is a bad idea, and messianic ones that glorify martyrs are a particularly bad idea.
I have no great love for Christianity either, so blame it for those things if you want, Zonath. What I am saying is that Islam gets this weird free ride, with incessant talk about “a tiny minority of radicals” when poll after poll in Islamic country after Islamic country shows a massive majority would love to see the forced conversion of the non-Muslim world.
And where are these moderate muslims when the Christians of Iraq, Egypt, Iran, Thailand are being butchered? They are awfully quiet, aren’t they, which leads one along with poll results to suspect they support violence, but just aren’t into doing it themselves.
Ok, it’s political. Burning heretics at the stake was political too, but that doesn’t mean that age’s brand of Christianity shouldn’t be criticized.
above should read “awfully quiet”
And Jodi, what I see on TV is endless apologetics for Islamic violence.
“Then again, Koreans are unpredictable. For example, a bizarre but frequent response to these killings (judging by the netizen comments) is anger that the men are dying first. “Is it a crime to be a man?” etc.”
No way. Man, that perverse…in every sense of the word.
#17. “messianic ones that glorify martyrs”
In all fairness, doesn’t that pretty much covers every religion? The coming of a ‘promised one’ is an element that is found in most religions, if not all, and nearly every religion has its martyrs. It’s quite normal, really. Religions didn’t come out of thin air. They fed off one another for ideas when they were in there infancy.
Are any of the netijens calling for a military solution? Just curious, as that’s the only way I see out of this mess.
“cover”, sorry.
I think that all or most religions tend to be medieval, but Islam is surely the most medieval of them all, based simply on the fact that so many of its fanatics seem to have no problem with murdering innocent people in the name of their religion. Imagine praising God while hacking off some innocent victim’s head.
Something is wrong with Islam, and it is time that people started admitting it.
It may not be ‘real islam’ what the extremists are doing, but it is up to mainstream muslims to denounce the extremists and make them paraiahs in their own society. So far they are not pariahs, which is why they are able to grow and get support. What we get are western leaders making apologies for Islam and not Islam making apologies for Islam extremists.
I think it was Samuel Huntgington who said Islam’s “borders” are red. Take a look at the numerous hot spots around the world and a good number of them involve Muslims pushing up against non-Muslim neighbors.
“What the U.S. needs to do is have the Korean government send combat troops in to kick some ass, a la Vietnam.”
Sounds good to me. Let the Korean Marines go in and rescue them while wiping out as many Talibanis as possible.
And an even better suggestion was on Malkin’s site: kill two Taliban prisoners for every hostage killed.
Hatch SZ,
They do criticize the extremists, you just choose to ignore them when they do.
http://www.christianpost.com/a.....stages.htm
I’m curious to what Koreans expect America to do if they were to get involved with this crisis? Negotiate or send in an armed response? Since the US doesn’t negotiate with terrorists, is military support to be expected? If that be the case, why doesn’t Korea risk it’s own troops, they’ve got plenty of them, since they draft every able-bodied male into the armed forces. Surely they have a special forces branch, why not stop negotiating and send them in? It’s obvious that all this talking is going nowhere. Everybody wants a peaceful solution, but enough is enough. Quit beating around the bush and go kick some Taliban ass.
Religions seem medieval because they were invented so long ago and haven’t evolved since then.
Yeah, a US military solution. Korea doesn’t have the moral or political ballast to undertake any kind of military action on its own initiative - even in defense of its own most clearly justified interests (protection of its citizens) - which is one of the principal reasons that The Great Pretender’s incessant chanting of the mantra of independence and national equality is not only vacuous, but just deepens the the pit of national self-loathing han in which such whining echoes louder and louder.
Robert. I hardly think Malkin is a fair representation of coverage outside of Korea. Pro-war-booster blogosphere aside, she is largely unknown outside of the US.
Funny to read the comments on her site though, you can’t get two words in without frothing-at-the-mouth blame directed at liberals and fellow travelers (disclaimer, I’m not in that camp). Ahh, Der Kulturkampf!
Finally, as for pointing the finger of blame, I’m finding it hard to see how a Turkish, Senegalese or Indonesian Joe Muslim could be accused. There is no monolithic Islam, part of the problem as I see it, and every ratbag doing this kind of thing tends to speak out as if there were and he is the supreme authority behind it.
“Robert. I hardly think Malkin is a fair representation of coverage outside of Korea.”
Robert didn’t write the post, and Malkin is retarded (and I am conservative).
Oh, shit, “conservative” that is….
“I’m curious to what Koreans expect America to do if they were to get involved with this crisis? Negotiate or send in an armed response?”
Armed response, no. What some in the media want the US to do is to put pressure on Afghanistan to release those Talibans jailed by government forces. I don’t think the Korean media is trying to blame this on the United States, as some here have claimed. They are just reiterating the reality that if the US government wants those hostages released, they can make it happen by one phone call to an Afghan government. That’s not trying to blame the US, that’s just plain reality. Another reality is that S.Korean policies are often enter-twined with American foreign policies, and both of them don’t stand eye to eye on many issues.
Before you rip into me, you should know, the US have every right not to free those prisoners, and should stand firm.
Aaronm:
I wrote the post, and I added the link to Michelle Malkin’s site. Although I am a Christian and a conservative, I am hardly a card-carrying endorser of many of her views, and in general, am not a keen fan of mixing religion and politics. I posted the link for two reasons:
(1) She’s covering the story. That anyone in the English-language blogosphere outside of the small section that “Koreana” takes up is covering this at all is notable.
(2) Oddly, several commentators in the English-language Korean blogosphere who generally seem to take very conservative positions on US-Korean relations nevertheless staked out positions early on that were highly unsympathetic to the plight of the Korean hostages. It leads me to think that for some commenters, antipathy towards all things Korean trumps all other viewpoints. I was pointing out that, shocking though it may seem to some, there are conservatives in this world—outside the Korean blogosphere, no less—who are sympathetic to the hostages, and don’t feel the need to blame them for their plight, or equivocate on the perceived legitimacy or illegitimacy of Christians travelling to non-Christian countries.
Furthermore, speaking of biases, yes, her blog is not exactly a friendly environment for liberals, but if you’ve spent much time over the past two weeks here on the Marmot’s Hole, you will have noticed a huge amount of contempt towards Christians as a result of this affair, as if we were all loony, unthinking wingnuts. Actually, you’re in good company here.
#30.
It’s older than that.
The idea that we were created by a supreme being stems from prehistoric humans’ lack of scientific knowledge.
…which clashed with the human ability and tendency to rationalize.
Someguy: It’s a shame that there are both Christians and atheists at opposite ends of the spectrum who claim that faith and science are irreconcilable.
From a Christian point of view, the Bible tells us the “what” (that the universe was created, and created by God); science is a gift from God that tells us the “how.”
“It leads me to think that for some commenters, antipathy towards all things Korean trumps all other viewpoints.”
OR perhaps rightly, their bullshit meters are up. It is ridiculous to think that mere words on a blog signify lack of sympathy or, by extension as you imply, a genuine desire to see these people die. The fact is, the issue of sympathy is not an issue for debate. The negligence of these people is.
About biases: “you will have noticed a huge amount of contempt towards Christians as a result of this affair.”
All Christians are NOT the victims here, the 23 hostages are. The general attitude of contempt, as I see it, is for those Christians that like to pray on the weaknesses of others for the sake of conversion. Missionaries included.
#29: Someguy…I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it.
#33:aaronm:
I couldn’t agree more.
I just want to add that while these deaths and the kidnappings are tragic, I’m glad no one is agreeing to release Taliban prisoners this time. Although the decision not to comply with their demands was a good one on behalf of the Afghan government, it was probably a painful decision to make nonetheless…
To those who suggest Korea send in forces to help wipe out these extremists, I wish that would happen.
I wonder if and how this will effect Korean politics being that it’s an election year? (Isn’t that part of the goal behind these kidnappings, anyway?)
Dude, I am sure you guys read between the lines in the internatinal Media reporting on the hostage crisis, but for the pruposes of highlighting:
(1) The Korean hostage crisis gets front page coverage in The NYT and LA Times, and I am guessing else where, too. Anyways, it seems to get top billing on Internet news sites as well.
(2) The international Media reports that the US and the UK are against a hostage-prisoner swap (read pressuring the Karzi gov’t not to allow it again. US-UK were against the Italian one, too. They were against them in Iraq, too. This is of course an opposition “in principle.” Who knows what happens behind the scenes.
A note on who is leading the negotiations for the Karzi gov’t:
Mullah Abdul Salam “Rocketi” the MP for Zabul. He is a former Taleban war hero, and now a special envoy to negotiate the release of the hostages. He got his rocketi moniker for his acumen with RPG-7 in the ’80s against the USSR.
The following comments were reported in January this year. They are quotes of him by the reporter who who wrote the articles this came from. Just google it, if you want to find where I got it from:
“When the current government came along I gave everything to them because I thought they would make the country better. But I regret that. There is a big fire under the earth. It’s like a volcano and soon it will explode.
It will explode if everything continues like now; the corruption, the bad security, the bombing of civilians by coalition forces. Soon it will explode and people will stand up in the name of jihad and martyrdom if there are no big changes.
Now in parliament the MPs are saying: ‘Forget about Pakistan and the Taliban; why are the foreigners here?’
They are saying a thousand-headed dragon is here and it’s the foreign armies. Just imagine, if the MPs are saying that in an official place, what will a simple person in a village be saying?
Now in parliament they say if you kill a foreigner, a non-Muslim, and then you yourself are killed, you will become a martyr and go straight to paradise. They see no difference between the military or civilians.”
Me, again: My conclusion is that the context in which the kidnapping occured is crucial to understand the US position vis-a-vis this particular hostage situation. The ROK gov’t means well in pushing hard to protect its citizens, but these Christans are fucked as far as I can tell. Sad. But it seems so.
I’m with Hugh.
The constant implication is that radical Muslims distort the Koran, when in fact the Koran itself is radical.
The reason we cannot blame Muslims as a whole for Taliban outrages is that Muslims generally take their Koran no more seriously than Christians generally take their equally barbaric Bible.
It’s been a long struggle but humanist values have triumphed, and the average lukewarm church/mosque-goer pays more attention to these values than to their own holy books.
And thank God for that!
Sewing. I think I would be typical of the kind of poster who has a fairly conservative view of KorAm relations yet finds the actions of the hostages and their mentors mind-boggling. That aside, I have to issue the same disclaimer as Iheartblueballs, to wit, I in no way endorse the killing of these people and find the Taliban and their ideology abhorrent. And, for that matter, I don’t think anyone who has questioned the motives of the Korean hostages wants them to die, far from it. Nor am I anti-Christian. While I maintain a skeptical and arms-length distance from the faith, I willingly admit that many followers of the faith do wonderful things in its name as well as finding great personal fulfillment. What is up for debate though, are the motives of the Korean mega-churches and their duty of care to those they send out on mission. I think to be fair in this case one must be critical yet not totally hostile to both Islam and Christianity.
I also think we’re too hard on the hostages. There is the stupidity of someone who wanders into actual gunfire, and there is the stupidity of someone who assumes his fellow man won’t murder him in cold blood due to a difference of faith. It seems to be that the latter form of stupidity should not be criticized as harshly as it is here. You could take it as a sign of a basic (if misguided) faith in human goodness.
Anyway, I say enough of this whole imaginary friend nonsense. Just quit it! Put away your Korans and Bibles, my religious brothers, and try loving thy neighbor without the promised reward of an afterlife. Believe me, it’s not that hard.
#14 is the way to go. Take some of the fuckers out and perhaps save some of the hostages at the same time. Bring the war to them. Negotiations only give the Taliban legitimacy.
“From a Christian point of view, the Bible tells us the “what” (that the universe was created, and created by God); science is a gift from God that tells us the “how.””
And from my point of view, God, or whatever you call him or her, is a figment of our collective imagination. Nothing sad about that. I’m just being realistic.
What can the US do? Give the ROK a couple Apache helicopters and night vision equipment. It will help them solve this issue and wet their appetite to buy more. Seriously Korea, give up on the domestic helicopter program KHP. It will not add length to your dick.
48, I just hope if G-d is a women, she has a sense of humor.
If God was a woman, men’s penises would extend from their chins. (Sappho)
51 and sperm would taste like chocolate
(the US) needs to roll up its sleeves to resolve the case. It is the best way for it to avoid possible criticism in the event of a disastrous scenario.
Stating that the US is responsible for any disaster that occurs and will be criticized if it fails to prevent that scenario isn’t blame? The only motivation behind repeatedly stating that “reality” is to pre-emptively assign blame in the event the situation takes a turn for the worse. And when you add in the constant references to the Korean government as helpless, and framing of the US as the only nation capable of freeing the hostages, the setup is clear. US = bad guy. Korea = powerless victim. Why write a new script when you can pull old reliable out?
You mean you’re not interested in defending the Japanese internment as a great moment in American history?
She’s covering the story because she thinks the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim, and frothing at the mouth while highlighting any and all barbaric acts by Muslims (be they murder or giving a funny look to someone on an airplane) as if they were the apocalypse is how she gets her jollies and stokes the fires of her mouth-breathing readers. Not to mention her undying affection for those of faith and conviction that believers can do no wrong. The combination of the two in this story is like Xmas for her jihad against the jihad.
You’re not familiar with antipathy toward the recklessly stupid, regardless of nationality?
How generous of his holiness to impart on his servants a discipline which refuses to even accept his existence.
And for those that keep suggesting military action, I suggest an afternoon viewing of the film Munich for a preview of the likely outcome.
Christianity, science and the development of Western civilization are intimitely intertwined. The first universities were set up by the church. The Christian-bashing that’s been accompanying this hostage situation is tiresome and beside the point. The hostages were very stupid and ridiculously naive to take such hideous risks, but I believe they had good intentions. We don’t even know if they were going to try to convert people or to try to help in other ways (I suspect they wanted to help out in any way they could while trying to convert people).
And what is so wrong with trying to spread a message (besides being a very bad idea in this situation)? They’re not forcing anyone to convert, unlike many Muslims. Most Christians know that conversion by force doesn’t work. Ultimately, people have to want to do it or it won’t stick. In today’s world, evangelicals who try to convert others are mere nuisances to most westerners, a far cry from the Muslim nuts who chop off heads or limbs for not being Muslim.
Whatever the outcome of this horrible situation, I hope the US doesn’t get the blame. It lies squarely with the Taliban murderers who kill the hostages. The hostages and their church severely screwed up, but the terrorists are the ones committing the crime.
#22 “In all fairness, doesn’t that pretty much covers every religion?”
Not necessarily… Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and such don’t seem to be particularly messianic or place too high a value on martyring oneself. Of course, I could be wrong — I’m certainly not an expert at religion as a whole. The Abrahamic religions, on the other hand, seem to place a lot of stock in both concepts.
None of this is to say that other religions are flawless — of course they aren’t. There just seems to be something particularly dangerous and medieval about the Abrahamic world-view.
“The constant implication is that radical Muslims distort the Koran, when in fact the Koran itself is radical.”
Agree with Herod–after Sept. 11 I re-read the Koran (3/4ths of it anyway) and was struck not only by the frequency of violent commands in it but the specific instances where it advocates fighting with the “people of the book” (i.e., Jews and Christians) if they do not submit to “sharia” (Islamic rule), pay the “jizyah” (a “tax” for non-moslems) and accept “dhimmi” status (basically, second-class citizenship).
Along with moslems’ oppression of women, this is something the Western PC crowd takes great pains to ignore and downplay, along with the statements of Islamic radicals that specifically reference the Koran as justification for their brutality. If Islam isn’t reformed internally non-moslems will decide for themselves how to react to it, like the Thai Buddhists who got fed up with moslems killing monks. The so-called moderate moslems have to act.
Silly Korean Christians! What did they lose in Afghanistan that they had to go there to find? Why should they care about the suffering of others? Why can’t they display a level of civility similar to the nice people of the Congo?
“Sexual atrocities in Congo’s volatile province of South Kivu extend “far beyond rape” and include sexual slavery, forced incest and cannibalism, a U.N. human rights expert said Monday.
Yakin Erturk called the situation in South Kivu the worst she has ever seen in four years as the global body’s special investigator for violence against women. Sexual violence throughout Congo is “rampant,” she said, blaming rebel groups, the armed forces and national police.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....ongo_women
Stupid Christians! Always trying to make the world a better place.
When it’s not being outright refuted, the “what” that Christianity gives is a generally diminishing what. Naturalism proves that it is sufficient to explain about 99.999999% of everything. It also explains religion. Its wisdom in relation to the universe’s laws is that reference to super-powerful Jews with virgin mothers impregnated by Holy Ghosts is arbitrary and absolutely superfluous. Thus, science cannot be a gift of a (Jewish) God because, logically, it contains within it the premise -not Jew God- which is an absurdity.
Also, the Bible does purport to explain the “hows” too. It’s just not “very detailed” about it. (Ie, God said “let there be elephants!, hence Jesus is the Christ!)
Naturalism proves that it is sufficient to explain about 99.999999% of everything.
That is soooooo 19th Century. Positivism and Scientism went out of fashion decades ago. Get in touch with the times, man.
60
let’s agree to disagree. for whatever reason, your comment doesn’t compell me to reply in earnest and i don’t anticipate that’ll change. but the short of it is: naturalism != scientism or positivism.
How come it is okay to negotiate for the release of FOX News reporters, but not Koreans???
Read this bastion of the liberal liberal-Media bias ABC report:
The U.S. secretly agreed to the “real demands” set by the group behind the August 14 kidnapping of two Fox News journalists in Gaza, according to a report in the pan-Arab newspaper al Hayat.
The paper quotes “informed sources close to the mediations” as saying that the U.S. secretly negotiated with the group through leaders of “the Palestinian popular resistance committees.”
Last week, the previously unknown group calling itself The Holy Jihad Brigades issued a statement demanding the release of all Muslims held in U.S. prisons in return for the release of the two journalists. In fact, the paper reports that the public demand was not serious and that the group’s “real demands” were that the U.S. press Israel to reopen the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Palestine and cease the shelling of “Palestinian activists’” residences.
According to the report, the mediators contacted a representative of a European country who in turn contacted U.S. and British diplomats. The paper’s sources said in the report that members of a senior FBI delegation, who had arrived in the area a few days earlier, were also involved in the negotiations.
The announcement that the two journalists had converted to Islam as a reason for their release was only a camouflage to conceal the fact that the U.S. had agreed to the hostage-takers’ demands, according to the sources cited in the article. A few days ago the Rafah crossing was reopened for a few hours daily, and the Israeli forces stopped shelling residences of activists in the past few days, noted the paper’s sources.
When asked for a response by ABCNews.com, a State Department spokesperson refused to comment on the report in al Hayat. The department’s stated policy has been that the United States does not negotiate with terrorists.
Thanks you guys
for caring about Korea so much.
Bye bye
A rhetorical question for the brave, free-thinking religion-bashers posting here:
Since it is highly unlikely that the good people of Afghanistan will any time soon join Richard Dawkins, Christiopher Hitchens, and the Brights movement, would it not be a step in the right direction for them to join a religion which, in recent decades at least, has not been known for decapitations, stonings, hostage-killings, and suicide bombings?
I say this as a Catholic, not Christian.
#58: “Sexual atrocities in Congo’s volatile province of South Kivu extend ‘far beyond rape’ and include sexual slavery, forced incest and cannibalism, a U.N. human rights expert said Monday.”
And that’s just the UN peacekeepers.
> 62. yourbutt
> How come it is okay to negotiate for the release of
> FOX News reporters, but not Koreans???
Because the Bush Admin could not continue in power for another week without the continuous support it receives from the FOX propaganda service, and therefore protecting its reporters is crucial to national security.
It’s nothing against Koreans at all…
> 63. The Western Confucian
> A rhetorical question
Yes indeed, it would be a step in the right direction if they would become Daoists, Buddhists and/or Neo-Confucians.
“Islam gets some kind of ‘free pass’ and it irks me. Every slaughter they perpetrate (and the list grows on and on), prime ministers and presidents fight to be the first to piously pronounce on TV blatherings about “This is not the real Islam” etc etc and express worry over whether those unfortunate muslims living high on the welfare checks of their christian neighbors might be the victims of .. well, apparently of enduring a negative word or two.”
Hugh, #16:
Yes, as a European, with extended experience of living in or close to countries (Britain, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany) which have been the targets of aggression of religiously inspired EXTREMISTS (though of course not of ALL Muslims), I cannot help being in at least some limited agreement with your point of view. I hope that this expression of sincere concern on my part will not be regarded as inflammatory by some…
#66: So Bush has one propaganda outlet. The Demos have five: CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and MSNBC.
http://app.yonhapnews.co.kr/YN.....1047700341
Thank the lord for our newly established “equal” relationship.
66. Interesting that you exclude Presbyterians but include the same Neo-Confucians who drove the Korean Buddhists to the mountains and killed 10,000 Korean Catholics.
I’m relieved that the Koran evidently has some kind of problem with the murder of innocent women.
As opposed to the Bible, in which Moses flies into a rage with his men upon finding they have left the Midianite women alive. “Kill all the women who aren’t virgins and keep the rest for your own use,” he snarls (Numbers 31). Nice, eh?
(BTW, this Moses fellow is highly respected by Christians as the man who passed on their God-given moral code, the “Ten Commandments.” I’m not making this up.)
“What some in the media want the US to do is to put pressure on Afghanistan to release those Talibans jailed by government forces. I don’t think the Korean media is trying to blame this on the United States, as some here have claimed. They are just reiterating the reality that if the US government wants those hostages released, they can make it happen by one phone call to an Afghan government. That’s not trying to blame the US, that’s just plain reality.”
Is the Korean media explaining WHY the US is reluctant to pressure Afghanistan? Not from what I’ve read. No, the Korean media isn’t blaming the US. It is, as you’ve noted, pressuring the US to get Afghanistan to release dangerous insurgents.
The current hostage crisis is very different from the situation described in post #62. The demands of the Palestinians
“that the U.S. press Israel to reopen the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Palestine and cease the shelling of “Palestinian activists’” residences.”
posed no threat to Israel’s security, unlike the demands by the Taliban to free insurgents.
“I say this as a Catholic, not Christian.”
You mean you don’t believe Jesus is Savior? Catholics are Christians, too, although nominally so, according to some evangelicals.
“How come it is okay to negotiate for the release of FOX News reporters, but not Koreans??? ”
Because the FOX reporters are needed to wage war in the Middle East, while the Koreans are just some do-gooders that nobody but their families care about.
“You mean you don’t believe Jesus is Savior? Catholics are Christians, too, although nominally so, according to some evangelicals.”
This is, indeed, true - here in (continental) Europe the common Anglo-Saxon juxtaposition of Catholicism and Christianity regularly causes bewilderment and is regarded as offensive by many, regardless of their religuous denomination.
72. - “You mean you don’t believe Jesus is Savior? Catholics are Christians, too, although nominally so, according to some evangelicals.”
Catholics believe Jesus is Savior. The emoticon after my statement meant to reflect the absurdity of the Korean tendency to see the words “Protestant” and “Christian” as synonyms, with Catholics and Orthodox somehow outside the fold.
Western Confucian -
You raise an interesting point. Koreans (incl. Christians!) do indeed regard Christianity and Catholicism as completely different things. (This alone shows how little they know of the Bible.)
So a lot of the anti-Christian statements made by netizens (referring to 개독교 for example) are in fact to be understood as anti-Protestant statements. Catholics are more highly regarded by non-Christians here.
[Deleted for inappropriate use of language against another commenter (edited by Sewing).]
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“The emoticon after my statement meant to reflect the absurdity of the Korean tendency to see the words “Protestant” and “Christian” as synonyms, with Catholics and Orthodox somehow outside the fold.”
It’s not just a Korean tendency. I grew up in a staunchly Catholic household and received 5 years of Catholic school education plus 6 additional years of CCD. We always called ourselves Catholics. The only time I ever heard the word “Christian” in reference to ourselves was in hymns and sermons. Likewise, many North Americans equate “Christian” with “Protestant.” I don’t think Koreans created the erroneous Catholic/Christian distinction; rather, they absorbed it from European and American missionaries. Fantasy acknowledged that Europeans, too, use the same terminology.
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Re the deleted comments above: I took the thread off-topic with an extended reply to Herod’s comment in #71. So as not to turn this into an extended theological debate, I’ve deleted the whole thread.
Herod: That passage in Numbers 31 is a highly disturbing story, and sickening in the breadth and depth of what happened. Those who take a conservative view of Scripture cannot just explain the story away or pretend it’s not in the Bible, however (as you have alluded in the past to Christians doing), but must confront it and try to make sense of it, even if it makes God and Moses look bad in the eyes of many readers. The story must be understood in context, however. For a scholarly, Christian explanation of the Numbers 25-31 story arc, see Good question…What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites?
#56,
You’re wrong, actually. Just Google any religion name with ‘messiah’ or ‘martyr’ and something will come up.
“Korean hostage’s body has been found…The victim…was wearing …flip-flops”
You know this will reinforce the stereotype that Koreans all wear flip-flops. At least they didn’t say they were those blue rubber flip-flops with the 3 white stripes.
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