A lot has been said regarding the hostage crisis, among them the irresponsibility of the 23 that went on the so called medical mission to Afghanistan. Now why would 23 men and mostly women decide to go on a mission which most of them, despite the somewhat insane pictures taken at the airport, knew would be akin to a suicide mission?
Fortunately, I didn’t have to go far to find an answer, because based on my own personal experiences with Korean Christians, it wasn’t difficult to figure everything out.
Now I have to add that not all Korean Christians are like this, but the Korean Christians who are level headed are in the minority. Unfortunately the majority have the following tendencies;
1. The need to convert everyone around them.
This seems to be the case with almost every Korean Christian that I have gotten to know. The first question is usually “Do you go to church?” If the answer is “No”, then the sales pitch begins with lobbying on why I should believe in God and Jesus Christ, which leads to pushing me to go to church (”Are you free on Sunday? Be here by this time”) and eventually leads to comments like “why aren’t you coming to church?” or “attending the church is good for your future” or “if you attend our church then there are girls waiting in line to date you.” Some like our CIO take a more direct approach, by gathering his reports and saying “I order you to go to church with me” and in a Korean company, if your boss orders you, you don’t have much of a choice.
Personally, if I want to believe in a religion and follow its teachings, I would rather do it without people ordering/pushing me to believe in that particular religion, and what really angers me, is the Korean Christians’ penchant to ignore the wishes of the person whom they are trying to convert.
This is in contrast to American Mormon missionaries whom I had an opportunity to meet during my college years. They were eager to show me the Mormon beliefs and teachings, but at the same time, they were willing to step back and let me decide on my own. At the end, it was nice talking to them, but I decided that the Mormon church wasn’t for me, and the missionaries respected my decision.
Which brings me to this story. One of my college hubae, was an active member of a certain church with an Ancient Egyptian sounding name, and saw me talking to the Mormon missionaries. He asked me if I was planning to become a Mormon. I answered no. He sighed with relief and said that I had made a good decision. He also added that out of curiosity, he had read the Book of Mormon, and that there was a nasty odor from the hand that touched the Book, and from this he concluded that the Mormon church was not a proper church, and that it will decay.
At the same time he said that I should join his church, because his church was the true church. Yeah right.
2. The desire to be a recognized among the congregation.
Inside the church, there is a sort of pecking order. On one side are the church veterans, who have considerable influence inside the church, hold officer positions, and are well known among the congregation. On the other side are the less well-known members, who hold junior or no positions in the church. The not so well-known members aspire to be become the part of the well-know group and thus gain higher positions and influence in the church.
The reason? Some Koreans do go to church because they believe in God and Jesus Christ, but there are some Koreans who go to church as a means to an end. To them a church is a place to meet people, who might help them get lucrative contracts, jobs, plus help them out during rough times. In order to create the above mentioned network, one has to gain recognition and influence, by becoming an officer of the church.
In Korean churches, whether or not a member rises into a higher position is not judged by whether or not his or her religious beliefs and convictions are strong, but by the amount of activities that he or she has participated. This includes overseas volunteer work such as the one that the 23 were involved in Afghanistan. And from what I’ve heard from Korean churchgoers, participants of this type of work get the most points.
This means junior members feel that they have to volunteer for such work.
So now we have the two big factors that led to the 23 to embark on their fateful mission to Afghanistan. The desire to convert Muslim Afghanis to Christians, regardless of the fact that the Afghanis may not be interested in converting to Christianity, and the endless line of “volunteers” to carry out the mission.
But one may ask, why Afghanistan out of all places? Well I don’t think Afghanistan is the only country that has become practice ground for the Korean Christians. If one were to go to the Emirates and Korean Air waiting lounges at Dubai International Airport, it’s easy to notice a huge group of Korean Christians going back to Seoul, after completing their mission. And from the looks of it, they are probably transiting from countries in South West Asia and Africa. I don’t know about the other countries, but I think Afghanistan was selected because of the fact that the central government is weak, which means that the “volunteers” can go to a certain village and do their stuff without worrying about the local police. And also, because the majority of the local population is not well off. Provide them with good medical service, they get friendly with you and may be willing to listen to what you have to say. Which makes it easier to say a few words about the merits of Christianity.
Also, the fact that there was no security when the group were on their bus can be explained. They probably didn’t ask for security not because they were irresponsible, but probably because if they did, it was a matter of time before the Afghan police figured out what they were doing, which means being put on the next plane to Dubai.
As I mentioned above, the 23 members have been criticized for embarking on their foolhardy mission. But IMO, the responsibility of the entire fiasco should also rest on the shoulders of the church elders, who may have taken part in the planning and recruiting of “volunteers” for this ill-fated mission.
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66 Comments
Thank you for your opinion, but it’s irrelevant in the shadow of the almighty “god.” These were 23 courageous messengers, carrying the word to those poor souls that were previously denied the one and only true light of existence. They are above criticism, beyond your simple human comprehension, and protected by his holiness.
If they live, it’s because “god” protected them. If they die, it’s because “god” decided it was time for them to join them in his palace in the sky.
Either way, “god” wins. And you unbelieving heretics lose. So quit trying to comprehend that which you will never understand. The truth is only visible to those that give themselves to jeebus. If you haven’t done that, then shut the fuck up. Amen.
Somewhat interesting reply heartblue, except that quotes and misspelling in order to flesh out your true stance is a poor man’s satire.
I’d also like to chime in with one thing I experienced. Although I agree that what the missionaries did was in bad taste to say the least, some of these kids (mentally at least), have it beat in them that this is the way how missionaries are supposed to *help*, and often reflect upon how their country was helped at the end of WW2 by missionaries who set up good English schools and Western science. The situation is quite different in Afghanistan, but I don’t think they are quite the scheming fundamentalists some have suggested, so let’s hope that they are returned safe and can teach others to understand parts of the world better.
Yeah right. Min, your hubae was referring to a phenomenon that is truly theoretically and theologically only detectable to the senses of those who are quite reasonably surely “saved”. They get to experience extra things, supernatural things from God, when God desires. Some of things are written in the book as spiritual gifts. Or, he was lying. No matter what,though, the only reaction a normal human being can give after hearing about it is,
YEAH RIGHT.
Overall, you are right on about most everything you wrote.
My input is,
죽고 싶지 않다.
hmm… Pray for all the missionaries to safely return.
Next time, don’t go if death is to be feared.
죽고 싶지 않다.
Not what Paul said. Not what Peter said. No what John said. Not what James said.
Given that this is an approved message to the outside world, though, there is a high likelihood that’s not what these people meant.
But, if 죽고 싶지 않다, is really what they are going thru, next time, please don’t go.
As a matter of fact, it is quite inevitable that the ROK and US Korean churches will face govt regulated or self regulated changes in how they do these things from hence forth.
죽고 싶지 않다 is the last word they should be spewing out.
so, go only if you think you want to walk in St. Paul’s path. If you don’t know already, Paul gets the death penalty in Rome.
If you don’t want to, give away that money comparable to a European vacation to someone else, who can and would walk that line.
Depending on if they are any survivors, my opinions may change, but the dead Rev. Bae seems to have been ready for walking that line.
Imagine if he didn’t volunteer the info that he was the ringleader.
this is different from lying to protect the ring leader from enemy troops. It’s a little different from telling them who’s the king, who’s the general, who’s the president, etc.
This has unique consequences. He may be ratted out anyway, betrayed by his own, is one. The fragile faith of his followers being shattered with or without being ratted out is another.
At the moment of death, this Reverand lied. That’s all they will remember.
I believe Rev. Bae knew exactly what he was doing and was killed exactly because he was okay to kill according to Taliban’s right wing Muslim standards.
He does bear some major responsiblity, though, for deciding to go to Afghanistan, deciding to leave Kabul, and deciding to go without armed guards. It’s all in hindsight, (and who has enough foresight?), but being a Rev. is a job subject to much criticism, at all times.
Rice Christians. Which means they’re not Christians. And they shall be damned.
Point 1… My lord, as a Korean speaking white guy I get point one all the time. These days I do not even relate to these people in a normal manner anymore. To me they are less people and more stereotypes or caricatures. By the way, everything they said to you they have also said to me, including the girls lining up to date me thing. It makes me wonder if there is some sort of script they are reading.
thank you-know-who that there are others out there. korean christians drive me nuts. no need for extra anecdotes from me.
Bingo
I hear thru my wife that there’s some distinct fear of death going on over there.I wonder what happened to not fearing death because of The Promise.
You missed one bizarre characteristic of Korean Christians, namely that they combine extreme fundamentalism with an ignorance of the Bible. Try asking the subway pests about this or that part of their Word of God and they flee.
Every word of the book is true, but it’s the Moksa-nim’s job to read it, he being the great shaman who talks to God for them, and gets them benefits in this world.
Whose names are on the property records of the churches? Find the answer to that question and it will make things a lot more clear to you.
Hey, I’m a Christian in Korea and women are _NOT_ lining up to date me.
And Harod is pretty much right on about how many fundamentalists seem to have little knowledge of the bible.
SomeguyinKorea: Please spell it out for us.
Thank you, Mins, for another thoughtful, informative insider’s view of Korean culture. I’ll keep looking for more posts from you.
I’ll second Sonagi here. Informative, well written and thought out. The “token non-white poster” is proving a very good recruit…
In my experience, there is not much if any difference between Korean Christians and American Christians- or for that matter the Indian or even Chinese Christians that I’ve dealth with — yes, btw, Chinese and Indian Christians do exist and even have their own student fellowships at colleges across America. I’ve even known a pretty Japanese Christian who would tag along with Koreans to their retreats or their services. Anyway, truth is, these (Protestant) groups are continuous with each other in culture, family, and theology. Think of country music, think of Ned Flanders, think of Billy Graham or Pat Robertson. Think of C.S. Lewis. It’s all the same shit, just a different language. In addition, there’s a variety of Christians among Koreans. Some of the Korean Christians I’ve known are very dogmatic and others are liberal in their sense of the world, but still very devout in their faiths. Indeed, I know Koreans who attend(ed) Bob Jones’ University and other Christian colleges- East Gordon (?) or such comes to mind. I have cousins who live in Sweden who are biologists and who attend Church (they did at least when they stayed briefly in America, although they attended for social reasons). It all depends on the individuals; I imagine this principle applies as well to the missionaries in Afghanistan.
But abcdefg, if Korean Christians are pretty much like Christians everywhere (and admittedly they are when it comes to narrow-mindedness), why is it that only in Korea, Christianity is associated with exceptional greed, materialism, careerism, money-grubbing, etc? I don’t think Christianity has that kind of a reputation in other countries.
You are writing through the lens of expat blogs where it seems everyone makes mountains out of every Korean molehill 24/7. So, pardon me, I don’t think your attention is the most objective sort. Though, I’m not saying criticism isn’t well applied in this case.
Anyway, away from Korean issues, I criticize American ministries in the same way. Some of them are filthy, and others are admirable and good. I acknowledge these things, btw, as a perfectly militant atheist. Well, I’m not exactly militant but I’ve been told that I’ve got lots of han.
“why is it that only in Korea, Christianity is associated with exceptional greed, materialism, careerism, money-grubbing, etc? I don’t think Christianity has that kind of a reputation in other countries.”
Only in Korea? One can find “greed, materialism, careerism, and money-grubbing” in religious institutions across the globe and throughout history. Back in the 80s, televangelist scandals made headlines in the US. The Catholic Church is a very rich landlord and very secretive about it. Liquor-swilling, whoring Gulf Arabs fund madrassas that tether young people in poor countries to medieval beliefs and practices. Religion, wealth, and power have a long history of cooperation and conflict.
> In my experience, there is not much if any difference
> between Korean Christians and American Christians
> - or for that matter the Indian or even Chinese
> Christians that I’ve dealth with
So are you really saying that Christianity does not have any regional characteristics? Seems a dubious notion to me. Yes, people are all different, but that does not mean personalities and cultures are formed in a vacuum.
Korean Christiantiy definitely has taken on shamanist and other local traits. Which is not necessarily a bad thing (in general, I think it is not good for Christianity to do so, but Allan Anderson wrote a strong case in favor of David Yonggu Cho’s localizing Presbyterianism to Korea).
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=.....ent=safari
More critical articles are here:
http://www.cephasministry.com/paul_yonggi_cho.html
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbear.....eneral.htm
But it is not just Korea. Most religions take on a local flavor when they move around the world. The New York Times had some great articles on the odder Christian sects that have been forming in China in recent years (cannot find the link now, but those stories were a couple of years ago).
All that said, I find much of the Korean combination of zealotry and Christianty to be far more Pharisee-like than Christ-like. In general, Korean society does not deal with dissent and differences well, with groups easily falling into “all out war” with their oppenents.
paul’s vision on the road to damascus maps surprisingly well to a lesion of the temporal lobe. it’s a case that makes one wonder what structural deficiencies and degradations have on religious beliefs.
of course opposite causality where the lesion allowed paul to have a vision others couldn’t access could be argued…
Mankind should overcome religion once and for all, don’t understand why people need to believe in some superhero with superpowers who came to earth, actually it sounds quite stupid to me, the bible is nothing else than a Harry Potter writen many years ago…wake up!!!!!
abcdefg, there is regional characteristics in the Christian religion.
Koreans usually don’t like the Nashville sound of American church music. Some grow to like it.
Latin Americans do show clear evidence of mixing Christian religion with their former religions.
I do receive some back lash from my mother for mentioning this observation, but there is some bee-na-ee-da style and thought pattern present in Korean Christianity.
Judge Judy, thanks for mentioning that. I am aware of it. However, I think there’s more to it. As usual, no use arguing about religion.
Ultimately, if you accept it, by choice, you must believe.
Thank you for your coverage and commentary to this story.
I think it is important not to blame the victims. If somebody shoots somebody - it is the person who is holding the smoking gun who should be blamed. I have no idea what these people’s motives are - but nurses helping poor villagers, the stated reason, is admirable. I hope and pray that the remaining 22 hostages come home safely. Jesus also says that we should pray for our enemies - including these Taliban hostage takers.
There is a lot we evangelical Christians could learn from Mormon Missionaries. It is important to respect other people’s decisions and differences!
-Mark
JJ (20): Perhaps the explanation is that Paul is one of the servants whom God has used to bring others to salvation in Christ. There could be no more powerful witness for the saving power of Christ than one who had so forcefully opposed and persecuted the earliest Jewish Christians. And there could be no more eloquent preacher or theologian than one who through years of rabinnical training under Gamaliel had developed skills of oration, and Scriptural exegesis and exposition.
Furthermore, given Paul’s stubbornness and years of rabinnical training under Gamaliel and his persecutory conduct towards the earliest Jewish Christians, the Lord needed to do something singularly forceful to change Paul’s heart, convict him of the rightness of those whom he had so violently and passionately opposed, and gird him for the years of evangelizing—often in the face of adversity and great hostility—that lay ahead.
But of course, that’s only an inference from the Bible, and who would believe that in this day and age?
Noah Body,
I have been to Yoido Full Gospel church about one year ago and Rev. Paul (now David) Yonggi Cho have changed his preaching style considerably.
He came from the Assembly of God seminary and that explains his lack of sound Biblical doctrine sometimes. However, he prescribes to Presbyterian principles and always kept himself out of extreme Spiritualist position, even though his congregation may have contained these. Cho himself always keep the path of the traditional christianity.
Those who say that he mixed Korean spiritualism with Christianity do not know what they are talking about. Korean churches, including Full Gospel, are frequently challenged in their teachings by Presbyterian churches, such as YoungNak and ChoongHyen, which are based on the sound 19th Century-English presbyterian doctrine. As a result, most Korean churches are healthy doctrinally.
The full-Gospel church and Rev.Cho have been challenged in their teachings and Rev. Cho has changed his positions, sometimes to listen to Rev. Han (YongNak) who had been his advisor in many occasions.
So do not spread rumors based on assumptions. Koreans churches are very healthy doctrine-wise. Slightly more Holy Spirit-oriented than average Baptists. Better Bible-trained than Pentacostals.
Materialistic? Maybe. About as much as American Christians. Nationalistic? As much as English Christians.
Overall, I believe at this present time, Korean churches are most fired up churches on the globe.
You don’t hear of any other country’s Christians in Afgan, do you? Only Korean Christians are there risking their lives.
Doesn’t it tell you something?
“I think it is important not to blame the victims. “
Saying that someone made an unwise choice is not blaming. It is part of the process of learning from mistakes.
“I have no idea what these people’s motives are - but nurses helping poor villagers, the stated reason, is admirable. “
I believe there was only one nurse amongst the 23.
A close Canadian friend of mine had a friend who could cross the street as soon as the “walk” signal came on, even if there were cars in the intersection.
“But I have the right of way,” he insisted.
To which my friend replied, “I’ll put on your tombstone, ‘But he had the right of way.’”
For Missionary zeal, the 19th centry belonged to England. The 20th, America.
I think the 21st will belong to Korea and later China. By the end of the century, Europe and the US may become non-Christian while China may become the Christian nation on earth. Or, Brazil.
Nations change. Spain once was the most Christian country on earth. Now, ?
Soon the US will become ?. By the end of this century, definitely ?!
Korea will plant gospel in China and in fifty years China may become the Christian nation. God calls His people from all nations.
by the way, why are Korean churches most predominantly Presbyterian?
It’s a small player in the US and internationally.
I didn’t know Koreans had that much in common with the Scotland
another thing that bothered me about US Korean churches was seeing churches maneuvering around denomination rules, so they can have their independent church.
Usually, one in the area will be of Korean Pres Church, another of Pres Church USA. Both will not allow another one to be in a reasonable distance. That’s actually a good idea.
However, not if people want their own churches.
They’ll preach Presbyterian at the pulpit. They will. I’ve been there.
But, they’ll be of Reformed Church, Methodist, Assemblies of God, Baptist, etc in affiliation.
Actually, having the K Pres church granting churches in the USA is kind of silly when there is a PCUSA on its own. I’m pretty sure the K Baptist church doesn’t do it, probably because there isn’t a high demand for Baptist churches for Koreans in America.
anyway, I’m not saying all do it. But, I’ve seen it done.
and, it’s not right, because it violates raison d’etre.
i guess the sincere men and women who went to Korea from the west were Presbys.
Sonagi,
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Matthew 13:44
Sonagi, I realize that religious institutions are all money grubbing. Religion started (according to anthropologists) when one or two smart guys in the village realized they could have an easy life without working by persuading everyone else that they had a special hotline to the gods.
My question was, why do Christians have this reputation for exceptional materialism in Korea and not in, say, the US. Americans tend to associate materialism with televangelists, maybe even with pastors, but not with the Christian flock as a whole (which is likely to be earning under the national average, I’d say).
It seems wrong to refer to Korean Christians as Presbyterians, when their beliefs (earth is a few thousand years old, etc) are closer to those of Southern Baptists. The difference being that Southern Baptists read their bibles occasionally.
wjk,
The denomination is like a group of churches. It decides on teachings and doctrines; it sets direction for member churches.
PC USA had to split from United Presbyterians when the latter accepted Homosexual pastors and women elders.
Sometimes denominations split due to political differences or financial reason.
All this is good. When churches united and form One Super church, sometimes it becomes too dictatorial. No freedom, no choice. Just see the Catholic Church. It covered up sexual scandal. And, historically it had done some horrible things.
Presbyterians split and create choices. You go to a church where you are happy. You make the choice. Now, that is good. However, with power comes the responsibility, quoting the SpiderMan in SpiderManII.
Baduk, if you can find a society in the OECD where people have less consideration for their fellow man than South Korea, or more of a fixation on the acquisition of wealth and status, I’d like to know what it is. So don’t be going on about Korea as the font of true Christianity (which went belly up a few hundred years after JC died).
“You don’t hear of any other country’s Christians in Afgan, do you? Only Korean Christians are there risking their lives.
Doesn’t it tell you something?”
Yes. It tells me that the organizations/churches to which some of these missionaries belong are irresponsible. They’re putting their people in extreme danger, and it appears as if these people may not be sufficiently prepared/trained for such dangerous conditions.
Also, as mins0306 suggested in the original post, those “volunteering” to engage in this kind of activity might be facing pressure to partipate. Many Korean Christans may indeed be “fired up”, but being pressured to “volunteer” by one’s organization or organization’s peers isn’t really volunteerism in its purest sense, is it?
And, they are not the only volunteers - Christian or otherwise - in Afghanistan. They might be the only ones naive/crazy enough to ride 23 people to a bus across a war ravaged Islamic country with no security, but there are others - individual and group associated - who are going about their work with a little more discretion. Missionary/volunteer work can be risky, but risks should be minimized where possible, no?
Herod,
Korean churches are changing. Recent “in” thing is Bible study and discipleship.
Even anti-materialism backlash from the Full Gospel era is developing. Even though these churches seem to drifting toward Social gospel.
As God is working in Korea, churches do change. Even Rev. Cho is retiring next year. He was some preacher. I will miss his sermons, even though they were not strictly correct doctrine-wise. More like healthy, wealthy and beautiful type of teaching. But, they were positive. So much so that even non-Christians listen to them as sort of motivation training.
His replacement is trained in more traditional American seminary. Most Korean ministers have attended American theological schools. Korean churches of three major denominations(Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist) require this from their pastor.
globalvillageidiot,
Being a Christian missionary sort of demands “giving one’s life”. It is similar to signing up as a Marine.
Most Marines go to Iraq when ordered. I said the “most”.
Herod,
Christians are only 1/4 of Korean population. I hope someday you meet a good KC and change your perception on KCs.
Hmm… KCs…people who have no problem with a god who torments millions in hell (for eternity!) simply because they don’t believe in him? Not likely to be especially nice people. Muslims and Christians deserve each other.
“globalvillageidiot,
Being a Christian missionary sort of demands “giving one’s life”. It is similar to signing up as a Marine.
Most Marines go to Iraq when ordered. I said the “most”.”
Marines are professional soldiers. If they are ordered to go, it is their professional obligation to go. Period. On the other hand, these missionaries don’t sound like full-time professionals to me. The Koreans that were kidnapped were supposedly on ten day voluntary trip, not a six-month tour of duty or whatever. They aren’t supposed to be ordered to deploy anywhere, unless their church is - contrary to what they would claim - essentially demanding that to do this. And, from what has been heard from the captives, they don’t seem to be all that keen on giving up their lives. I don’t think that sacrificing oneself is Plan A for most Marines, yet it is something they train for.
Reminds me of a story from my life just to point out Korea is not alone.
About 10-11 years ago in my last year of College I was living with this Japanese girl, I’ll call her “Keiko” for the sake of privacy. She got talked into a bible study-type gathering one Saturday night by one of the evangelical groups on campus, and convinced me to go along as flack jacket of some sort.
So we get to this pot-luck dinner at somebody’s house. The first thing that struck me was the huge dispropotion in the attendance. The earnest “christians” were all young college aged men, while the “prospectives” were all young foreign exchange girls. I got creeped out rather fast, Keiko either out of unfamiliarity, or stereotypical politeness, found nothing wrong with it.
I was soon separated from my girl, and was politely muscled of to a corner. As I was glumly looking at a soda and wondering where the beer was, I got some rather passive aggressive questioning from one member. It went something like:
Chosen one: “What’s up with you and Keiko?”
Me: “Well we live together, and get along fine.”
Chosen one: “So like you show her around and help her and stuff in America?”
Me: “Yeah, something like that.”
Chosen one: “So you are like her life friendship partner?”
Now here I was trying to be polite, and hoping he would get the drift. So his phrase “life friendship partner” got me seeing red. So I blurted out the following with barely a thought:
Me: “No you idiot, I am F***ing her.”
Needless to say the conversation ended right there. Apparently God was looking out for us that night. I think due to that automatic reaction (God’s words through my mouth!) neither Keiko or me were bothered the whole night!
I got some deja vu happening here. Dram Man, did you post that before?
Perhaps so, it’s one of my favorite stories. The look on that guy’s face at the sudden profanity was priceless.
Each individual made the choice to join the church and go to Afghanistan. No one’s fault but their own.
“But IMO, the responsibility of the entire fiasco should also rest on the shoulders of the church elders, who may have taken part in the planning and recruiting of “volunteers” for this ill-fated mission.”
Responsibility for what exactly?
If I become an alcoholic is it Jinro Soju’s responsibility?
Min,
Great post. Although you said Korean Christian bosses would pressure their underlings to go to church. I have worked in a Korean office culture for more than 10 years now. I never heard of that happening. My boss is Christian. Pretty hardcore, too. I have seen him pray before he eats a meal. I am Christian, too. But frankly speaking, that kind of creeps me out. He is quick about it. So, the awkwardness comes and passes, like a fart.
My points, I be short as possible:
(1)The church heirarchy bit struck a chord with me. That is definitely true in the church my family (mom and dad and wife) attend. Needless to say (anyone who has read me already knows) I am not up there on the church totem pole.
(2) American and Korean Christians are indistinguishable, as far as I can tell. I lived in the States a long time.
(3) Someone said something about the Holy Spirit being emphasized more in Korea and scripture more in the States. I dont think so. What about all those evangelical “holy roller” types in the bible belt. Geez, you didn’t see the docu “Jesus Camp”???
(4) As far as the politics go: Of course, the hostages should not be killed. Anyone who says they don’t care if those poor sods begging for their collective lives live or die are just being flippant or facetious. Sometimes I want to say stuff like that, too. (That is why I post on this blog, after all. Most of you guys, too, I suspect.)
I wonder if any of the church elders have considered offering themselves in exchange for the women.I think it’s their xtian duty.
Noah Body,
“So are you really saying that Christianity does not have any regional characteristics? Seems a dubious notion to me.”
In my view, that’s all about apparent “indeginization” and apparent “contextualization”, adaptation of a religion to the circumstances of some people somewhere sometime. If there are fringes of distinctions or differences in the theologies of a person like David Cho, that’s not really a regional thing, that’s a Cho thing, which isn’t neccesarily going to be reflected -or even absorbed- by those who attend his churches, especially today. Also, if there is a “local flavor” to a religion, that may be cosmetic rather than substantial. wjk mentions music. The other things wjk mentions I find in American Christianity.
“Korean Christiantiy definitely has taken on shamanist and other local traits. Which is not necessarily a bad thing (in general, I think it is not good for Christianity to do so, but Allan Anderson wrote a strong case in favor of David Yonggu Cho’s localizing Presbyterianism to Korea).”
You should read the links you post up, really. Cho is Pentecostal and Anderson spends much of his paper debunking the notion that Cho is a “Pentecostal Shaman” and takes Cho’s faith as continuous with American pentecostalism. I’ll give you these quotes from your link to prove it:
Like Anderson, I believe that “Shamanism provides a praeparatio evangelica, a fertile ground into which the Pentecostal ‘full gospel’ more easily planted.” But otherwise my impression is that the link between Shamanism and “Korean Christianity” is a myth, and is like pop psychology, something which many are quick to talk about but which nobody quite adequately understands or explains. Not even the Korean authors of the books about Pentecostalism cited in Anderson’s paper do much but merely assert a link between Shamanism and Cho’s church. Likewise, I think the characteristics of Shamanism aren’t exactly “Korean” or distinct to Shamanism. One can view the desire for blessings, health and wealth, as the denominator underlying a wide variety of American Christian, particularly those of the poorer working classes. Turn on American tv at night when the televangelists come on to see what I mean. If you disagree, then I must conclude you don’t know American Christianity very well.
There was this one time that as a kid I stepped into this one small church in some city and noticed all kinds of maudlin praying in tears and tongues, and thought that was supremely weird, not the usual thing I’d seen from all the other Korean churches I’d been to. Yet this too is the sort of church service that one can find in non-Korean churches in any State. Have y’all seen the movie BORAT? There’s a scene where Cohen goes to some Church service and the minister starts chanting in tongues. Everybody is going crazy. It’s hillarious. Would that be shaminism in the Mid-west America? No, of course. That’s what typical Pentacostal church service is like, though I admit I’m not sure. I grew up among Baptists and Presbyterians. And you know what critics say about praying in tongues. They say it’s all about status. They’re talking about American churches here. Not Korean.
From the rapidnet link, about shamanism:
^ So, again, basically that’s the same shite I see on tv every night in America. The angle is no different. Come to Jesus to: heal your diseases, mend your relationships, overcome addictions (such as alcholism - Bush knows about this one), find your spouse or love, even earn a promotion (and learn Jesus’s love etc etc). Heck, “ensure your health or business success” is the point of prayer no matter who you are and it ain’t nothing but old-fashioned, gospel-and-blues instrumentalism. The world is much smaller than you think.
And a note about the rapidlink article: The author is writing from the point of a view of a theologian who thinks Cho’s theologies “will serve anti-Christianity.” It’s typical inter-church fodder, rancorous and pretentiously normative. I’d expect nothing less from Christians of various denominations writing about other denominations. I’ve seen similar smeer jobs done by various Protestants writing about Catholics.
Harod-
“…a god who torments millions in hell (for eternity!) simply because they don’t believe in him.”
You’re not likely to find this concept in the Bible, though I can see where you might get this from some Christians.
But it all turns on what it means to be in Hell. If Hell simply meant separation from God, and those who go there voluntarily choose that separation, it begins to make much more sense.
A great novel called “The Great Divorce” deals with this matter in detail.
Oh dear sweet baby jesus, of all baduk’s nutball predictions, let this one come true. Please lord. For the children.
I’ve seen that look before. It’s the same one I see whenever some LDS door-to-door bible-beating dipshits come knocking, and I answer the door in my underwear furiously scratching my balls. Their enthusiasm for saving me dissipates rather quickly at that point.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291322,00.html
May the lord bless those that choke 3-year olds in the name of christ our savior. If you think about it, there’s as much evidence of the “demons” he was trying to drive out of his granddaughter as there is of a “god.” Kinda makes it difficult to criticize that wacko if you’re a believer then, is it not? Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Matthew 10:1: And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Eunsung:
Interesting that you describe hell so differently from the way it is described in your holy book. If that’s what Jesus meant by hell, why didn’t he say it? Instead he talks about never-ending fire (Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 5:29,30,etc). Mere rhetoric? Did the Perfect One misspeak?
Interesting how the Bible explicitly says that not a word of it is to be ignored or changed, but theologians jumped in a few decades ago to try to bring it all in line with humanist values. Which begs the question: why do we need that book at all then?
Forgive the Christians, oh Lord. For they know not what they believe.
Actually blueballs, if Marquez had read Lev. 20:27 he would know that anyone who has been possessed by a demon should be promptly stoned and killed instead. This is what comes of people not reading the holy book!!
herod, hell is hell as described.
balls, it’s kind of unlikely. Suburban US white America still likes their Sundays going to a certain place. Certain European countries seem to maintain more Christians than South Korea with a mandatory religious tax just for stating they are belonging to such a group on their tax forms. I think. Is that true?
Thanks for the confirmation, wjk. Flames it is, then.
We’re waaaaaayyyyy overdue for some booby pics here.
Hell is other people… More precisely, hell is the 5′2″, Christian halmoni who comes ringing at my door 4 times a day with her pamphlets in hand.
Herod (#50): Hmmm…which translation are you citing? The punishment is nasty, but the crime is not someone innocently being possessed by a spirit. The King James Version refers to “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard.” The New International Version refers to “A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you.”
The commandment was against those who actively engage in witchcraft or sorcery—communion with demonic powers and principalities. Leviticus is chock full of laws related to purity—spiritual, sexual, and dietary purity—that were part and parcel of the sacrificial system instituted by God at Mount Sinai.
God was setting apart a people—his chosen people—through whom his redemptive plan for humankind would be revealed. Given that we are fallen sinners and God is perfect, it stands to reason that the rules he sets down for our behaviour are not going to nicely go easy on us, or let us off the hook, or say everything’s okay. Not that all was doom and gloom, though: for most crimes, the punishment was a sacrificial offering. And lest one fall into the rut of merely trying to follow the rules and “be a good person”—or despair from being able to follow all the rules—God offered a way to redemption that transcended the sacrificial system, and that would nevertheless cultivate in its subjects a cleanness of heart that would naturally tend towards godly behaviour.
Furthermore, the sacrificial system that the Lord instituted was for the ancient Israelites who had been delivered from Sinai. In them, his chosen people, God nurtured a faithful remnant into whose midst over a millennium later would emerge the centrepiece of his plan for redeeming humankind from its sinful state. That centrepiece was Jesus, who in being both fully God and fully man was perfect in behaviour—the only person to perfectly follow the Law, and the only one who in his own sacrifical atonement, could complete and dismiss the obligations of all others to receive the just punishment for their sins.
In his death and resurrection, the old laws were completed, fulfilled, subsumed. The penalty for witchcraft or sorcery is no longer death. That doesn’t make the practice any less abhorrent to the Lord, however.
On the other hand, it is to the shame of those who have called themselves Christians through the centuries that many who were alleged to be witches were killed for their practices, real or imagined. The Puritans in Salem and the mediaeval Catholics were not behaving as followers of Christ. It may well be that they are now suffering the torment that they imagined those whom they killed would be suffering.
Here is a quote that was left out of the final version of the Bible:
“Go out, have fun, and enjoy your life.” –God
Harod:
Jesus at several times and places shows us different aspects of hell. Torture is one of them, but whether it is directly meted out by God upon nonbelievers, or whether freely chosen by those who go there is another question entirely.
The aspects I describe can be found in Matt. 25.
First, notice that the “five foolish virgins” are punished not for lack of belief (believing is hard, that may or may not be their fault), but for not backing up their faith with patience and costly action.
As to the nature of Hell, the bridegroom (that is, Jesus) says, “[12]…I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.” Later, in another parable Jesus says to those who again, have failed to act in accordance with faith, “[41]…Depart from me….”
What does it mean to be unknown by the Omniscient, and to leave the Presence of the Omnipresent? Like I suggested, this is separation from God in the fullest sense. Perhaps the fire is a symbol of the torture of having consciousness but no existence. I’m not sure.
Finally, we can also see in verse 41 that Hell is “eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”, and not something that God had ordained for the purpose of punishing unbelievers.
There may be great reasons to hate Christianity, but I don’t believe that its theology is among them.
Levicitus 20:26 is the stuff behind why Christians protest evilness like HARRY POTTER. I haven’t seen a single Korean Christian who is against Rowling’s books, btw. I suppose these Christians can exist. The pastors I know love ‘em. That’s diversity for you.)
Levicitus 20:13 is interesting too:
13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
I have nothing against homosexuality, of course, but passages like the above inclines me to feel particularly critical of all those confused gays who believe it’s ok to be actively gay and Christian at the same time. Just give up the cake, dudes! I think I dislike these “liberal Christians” more than the fundamentalists.
–
Harod,
You’ll be relieved to know that hell has no ambiguous meaning in Islam. When the Koran talks about the losers that we unbelievers are, it does so over and over again in terms of fire, chastisement, and pain. There’s no room in Islam for the sort of Care-Bears interpretation of Hell permitted in Christianity.
“Certain European countries seem to maintain more Christians than South Korea with a mandatory religious tax just for stating they are belonging to such a group on their tax forms.”
WJK, #51:
Yes, WJK, you are indeed right that in Germany, and possibly in some other European countries (Austria and Italy are strong contenders here, but I am not entirely sure) there is a mandatory religuous tax in the amount of 4 to 5 pc of a taxpayers gross income. For the purpose of the collection of this tax the authorities keep membership lists of the various denominations.
Although it is possible to evade this tax for this purpose, in the case of taxpayers of whom the authorities know that they have ever been baptised (such as has the case with myself as a baby in an orphanage in 1960s Romania, a fact of which the German authorities have been informed by their Romanian counterparts) a sworn statement on oath, confirmed by a notary public, is required. The latter charges a fee in the amount of several hundred US$ - thus leaving church is possible but quite a costly and burdensome enterprise, even for non-believers. I myself have taken this route - my wife was relieved that she had never been baptised, thus had never become a member of a church and therefore cannot be burdened with the afore-mentioned tax.
Having said this I also want to make clear that there are very few genuine believers in Europe - most Christians here regard church membership primarily as a kind of insurance policy against the hardships of growing old, as the churches do indeed provide some assistance in the process (such as admittance to their daycare facilities).
One has to take this whole story in perspective; for sure, Korean Christians are a nutty bunch. The society is perfect for such teaching as questioning the word of a senior in socially impossible. Everybody who has spent any time in Korea has their Jesus-Jenny stories and frankly, they simply got tiresome to me.
Korean churchie goers tend to be nutty, but absolutely crazy things happen in Korea all the time. Nowhere else in the world to people chop their middle fingers off and toss them over embassy gates. I cannot recall anyone else disembowelling himself over a speck of rock in the Sea. I cannot think of thousands of people trying to get the name of said sea changed simply because it is to the East of them. People routinely attack cops with iron bars and then go home for rice and kimchi.
So 23 non-thinking churchie lunatics head to about the most dangerous place on earth, where conversion is a capital offense and get kidnapped by a bunch of heroine dealing gangters who also hide behind religion. I don’t see any Mormons in Afghanistan and they are about as active as missionaries get.
Just a normal day in Korea, me thinks.
All these negative comments are certainly spot on - but, now that two of the twenty-three hostages have already been killed, what about honouring the dead by a little more reticence ?
I mean, YES, sure these people acted in a wacked manner by going to Afghanistan with the intention to proselytise, but now they are on the verge of getting murdered…
Since they have not committed an offense punishable by way of execution they do not IMHO deserve death.
Do you not feel a tad bit sorry for them, after all ?
After a time of hoping and hoping and hoping that some by jesus ex machina (sorry) they get rescued, that we are going to get rescued, the reality sets in: These people/We are going to die, 1 by 1. That’s a horrible way to deal with time, and my condolences go to families and friends. I am not feeling opitimistic.
Sure, this is a tragedy, but in tragic situations like this, where the tragedy was not only entirely foreseeable but also utterly preventable, it’s fairly natural to examine the reasons why it still happened. If for nothing else, maybe learning from this situation will end up saving some lives by dissuading other groups from following down the ill-advised path these poor souls embarked upon.
The answer to your question is in your own post. The general lack of sympathy for the hostages goes back to the causal relationship between this: “I mean, YES, sure these people acted in a wacked manner by going to Afghanistan with the intention to proselytise and this: “but now they are on the verge of getting murdered…”.
A (Christians prosletyzing) + B (Afghanistan) = C (death). It’s a pretty simple equation, well-known to anyone paying attention. If there’s no A, then there’s no C. Stay out of B and you don’t have to worry about C.
Where as many would sympathize with a guy who goes to the zoo and gets attacked by a lion that escapes its cage, not many would feel sorry for a guy that gets drunk, jumps in the cage, starts teasing the lion, and then gets attacked by said lion. No one wants to see the drunk get attacked, but not many people will feel sorry for the guy when he does.
You seem to think they’re in Korea, protected by Korean laws. News Flash: They’re not. They went into the den of the Taliban and are subject to their perverted codes of justice, which include execution for Christian prosletyzing.
Aren’t all of these things patently obvious?
I certainly feel sorry for the hostages and the two who have been murdered. But what I really feel sorry about is that Korean society continues to hang on to feudal anachronisms like unconditionally doing what a senior tells you.
“A (Christians prosletyzing) + B (Afghanistan) = C (death). It’s a pretty simple equation, well-known to anyone paying attention. If there’s no A, then there’s no C. Stay out of B and you don’t have to worry about C”
I also feel sorry that such logic is completely lost on the vast majority of Korean society and causes the kind of sadness that is happening now.
Finally, the Korean government SHOULD HAVE NEVER LET THEM GO!
The Canadian government has travel ban to both Iraq and Afghanistan.
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