Today is the anniversary of the No Gun Ri tragedy. GI Korea starts with the Pulitzer Prize-winning AP piece that “broke” the story, and will follow up with a counter-piece tomorrow.
No Gun Ri Anniversary
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{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
I look forward to the fisking in tomorrow’s GI Korea post.
What is this tragedy in war thing?
War is tragedy.
All armed troops are guilty.
Continued denials just suggest the insecurity of the US presence here.
boring..
“War is tragedy. All armed troops are guilty.”
First sentence true, second not so.
# Fantasy
you are a very naughty warmonger
Your country needs you!
The only reason this issue continues to arise is to stoke anti us sentiment. Politics work a lot around anti japanese and anti us sentiment. I believe it because those are the traditional enemies of north korea. With leftists in power for the last four years, its easy to see.
Its a good time to stoke anti us sentiment as there is an election in december. This along with the Gwangju movie, and if USA rejects FTA helps the leftists.
dlatn,
War may be a tragedy, but it often isn’t as great a tragedy as ending up on the losing side. You don’t have to go too far back in history to find concrete examples of that, as the Khmer Rouge victory in Cambodia demonstrates only too well. They were a force small enough to be defeated, if the population of Cambodia had only understood what “peace” was really going to bring them.
#5:
“The only reason this issue continues to arise is to stoke anti us sentiment. Politics work a lot around anti japanese and anti us sentiment… With leftists in power for the last four years, its easy to see.”
Although you may want to believe so, as some people here do, each of the above statements is absolutely untrue.
Then please enlighten us, French Quarter, why this really very minor incident persists as an item of such attention, e.g., as the subject of a soon to be released Major Motion Picture (Korean division).
#8
Let me briefly answer your comment (I’m updating footnotes of a stupid paper). There were civilian killings by the Korean Army and the U.S. Army, and they have been reported since 1990s because South Korean governments had controlled the media until the end of 1980s. No Gun Ri incident was not a minor incident for many Koreans, while most South Koreans were not, and are not, interested in the incident. You can find “apparent” anti-American sentiment, of course, and people involved in the incident still want to hear answers from the South Korean and the U.S. governments. Civilian killing, however, is the main issue for those who brought up the issue, whether the Korean Army or the U.S. Army did it, because it is so immoral and tragic. Some of those who have written and discussed such civilian killings believe that there have been a chain of tragedies even in the Vietnamese civilian killings by the Korean Army. If a tragic incident happened, then it might be unavoidable that the incident is brought to our attention, sometimes in the form of a movie, seeking certain answers or public attention, while I don’t think the movie of the No Gun Ri incident has to be made. We also heard of a movie regarding the Kwangju Massacre. The No Gun Ri movie could be uncomfortable for some viewers, whether they are Korean or not, but, in fact, the movie, as I said, is about civilian killing and disregard of human rights during a war, not simply about the U.S. Army.
Thanks for taking the time from your other work to pen your reply. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really answer the question why this particular incident has elicited so much attention. Why not the killings by the NORKS in Daejon, or any number of other incidents, the immorality of which is so much more evident. Hell, if your subject is the horror or war and the disregard for human rights, why not make a film about The Mongols sacking of Samarkand. Why this topic, at this time in these crcumstances? As for the movie, I don’t think anything can be said until it’s released and seen. A couple of years ago, I gave a copy of Bateman’s book to an actress acquaintance who is a good friend of the director to pass along to him, but I’m not optimistic that it will have been taken into account.
Lee Sang-Ho, the director of “Little Pond,” the No Gun Ri incident movie, said in the below interview that the movie is an anti-war movie, not anti-American.
http://www.film2.co.kr/feature/feature_final.asp?mkey=4187
(Korean)
I’ll believe it once I’ve seen it in the movie…
I’ll believe it once I’ve seen it in the movie…
Ditto, that!
What is interesting is that this No Gun Ri movie has been ready for some time but they wait before the presidential election to release it. Plus the director even admits the film is fictional:
http://rokdrop.com/2006/10/26/no-gun-ri-movie-completed/
It is bad enough that much of the established No Gun Ri mythology is fiction but now the movie is fiction based off of other fictions.
It will also be interesting to see if the director mentions at the beginning of the movie that the film is fictional. I doubt it and many viewers will think it is factual. Heck I know Americans that thought the Pearl Harbor movie was factual, I can only imagine how many Koreans are going to think the No Gun Ri movie is factual.
This is just like the Kwangju film that is also fictional. The timing with the Kwangju movie is just as interesting as the No Gun Ri movie. I’m sure it is all just a coincidence.
I’m sure French Quarter does too.
#15:
“The timing with the Kwangju movie is just as interesting as the No Gun Ri movie. I’m sure it is all just a coincidence.”
It IS a coincidence.
“The No Gun Ri movie could be uncomfortable for some viewers, whether they are Korean or not, but, in fact, the movie, as I said, is about civilian killing and disregard of human rights during a war, not simply about the U.S. Army.”
You overestimate the intelligence of the average movie goer.
“You overestimate the intelligence of the average movie goer.
The No Gun Ri incident has already been well known since around 1999. Most South Koreans don’t want to think about such incidents by the Korean and the U.S. armies. Watching the movie will not make any difference.
French,
If you can not see the politics of this then you are naive. Remember 2002. Lets see, who would benefit if the movie produces anti american sentiment, could it be yes it is, the ruling party. A movie about US soldiers shooting Korean civilians. Again, with all the killings of civilians why this topic. In Korean politics there are always reasons, whether it was using anti communism or anti japanese or anti american sentiment to get elected. Koreans will tell you they are an emotional group of people, often moved by emotion than by intellect. Reinforcing the stereotype that the US abuses and uses Korea and does not respect korea and its pride, only serves one political party.
#20
kwon, once I wrote in another thread, the background issues of the situation in 2002 were the SOFA and the U.S. foreign policy (I will not discuss them), which do not exist now. In 2002, it was the average citizens who “reacted” to the situation, and the majority of them would support a party and its presidential candidate who would inherit the policy of the DJ Administration. What you say is consistent with the fiction that the 2002 election losers, especially the Chosun Ilbo, created to discredit the current administration. Those folks still do not admit that they lost the election. A reasonable South Koreans can see that the No Gun Ri movie/incident will be no benefit for anyone in terms of politics at this point. Don’t make your groundless suspicion waste your time and energy. I really don’t want to say about me, but I’m a Korean native who has personally known those politicians very well, especially those in the GNP, and even the college socialists in 1980s and 1990s because of my unique circumstances. I sometimes provide what I know and have zero interest to appease people in the foreign community by making the situation look better.
I need to replace “the U.S. foreign policy” with “the foreign / North Korea policy of the Bush Administration” on the 2nd line of #20.
Clinton and DJ agreed with each other in a few important points, and it is now fortunate that Bush is sort of returning to the policies of these two administrations, which has been a blow to some, including the Chosun Ilbo, who have taken advantage of the situation of the Korean Peninsula for politics.
#20
“In Korean politics there are always reasons, whether it was using anti communism or anti japanese or anti american sentiment to get elected.”
This is one of the ridiculous statements that I have seen here sometimes, which I did not care. When you write a comment for my comment, however, you should prove it. Post links to what those politicians allegedly said – direct quotes (which would be in Korean because most of them have not been translated in other languages) – and prove the political purposes, such as elections, of their statements.
You want to attack conservatives and the chosun ilbo suggesting that the paper can manipulate public opinion, while on the other suggest that using anti american sentiment is not used by korean politicians. I believe US foreign policy in 2002 was six party talks, and the “unfair sofa” is still in place. When did the “average korean” stop mass anti american protests? I guess it was a coincidence that they stopped shortly after the election of 2002. Why were american flags allowed to be burned on the streets but burning north korean flags not allowed? Politician in almost every country try to get their base riled up before any election, to deny Korea is different in that respect is just silly. The ruling party came to power on its anti american positions. ie we will stand up to america, etc,
I believe that the modern anti american sentiment arose from the gwangju incident. The so called 386 generation was heavily influenced by gwangju.
Thus making of a movie about gwangju reminds the base of some of the reasons behind the leftist movement in korea. In addition, the movie about US soldier killing refugees is also more of the same. Both movies coming out just a few months before an election. In the election you will likely have a pro american candidate and an anti american one. As far as political comments in the original korean for elections in the late 80s and 90s, just go back and read the articles prior to the elections.
I believe the last election cycle a few years ago, they skipped anti american and used Dokdo and anti japanese sentiment. Again, a week or so after the elections the protests, the massive media coverage, slowed to a trickle.
“Politician in almost every country try to get their base riled up before any election, to deny Korea is different in that respect is just silly.”
The issue here is whether the previous administrations and their parties deliberately took advantage of AND provoked anti-American and anti-Japanese sentiment for political purposes. You above statement that I quoted is MISLEADING because I have never said that. Do not twist what I said. As I said above, if there was any deliberate exploitation of anti-American and anti-Japanese sentiment, PROVE IT. If there have been such assertions that the governing parties made for political purposes, post their links and prove their purposes. Repeating your beliefs only with your superficial knowledge about South Koreans and their society does not help. Regarding the anti-Americanism and the Kwangju Incident, I mentioned this:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/06/25/daehangno-bat-out-of-the-daehan-empire/#comment-91938
Do you really know about those American bashers? I did live with them very closely. There have only been the “boiler plate” anti-Americans slogans since the beginning 1990s, and hardly anyone listens to it. Regarding a tragic incident around 2002, there was a procedural issue in the tribunal, which I will not discuss here. There is no ongoing issue unlike 2002, as I said. I don’t intend to be offensive, but, honestly, I had witnessed this kind of ignorance only from some uneducated Koreans until I saw certain absurd statements here like yours. While this understandable for lack of information that people here can access, you sometimes need to learn from someone who knows about those and doesn’t have any personal interest regarding them.
#26
Correction: “the previous administrations” (4th line)-> “the previous and current (DJ and Roh) administrations.”
There are a few typos.
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Its obvious to any non biased observer. People who have lived, dealt with and interacted with koreans in korea understand. As far as politicians openly admitting, that they decided to stoke anti americanism to get elected, unless they are drunk at some room salon, probably not going to hear it. All one has to do is observe election cycles in Korea to see the rise of xenophobia it each cycle.
You may want to argue about the process in 2002, but remember that the incident with the girls happened during the world cup. Mass demonstrations were not held until a month or two before the election and stopped shortly after. Nothing changed in those two months except an election. According to US army news reports, there was a lot of false information about the incident in the Korean media. My favorite one was the military purposely ran over the two girls, then backup and ran them over again. Who controls the media in Korea? Gov officials and talents getting up and chanting f the usa, and burning american flags, does happen without at least tacit approval by the government. This was at a time that Korea was either the top or one of the leading countries in the world it traffic related fatalities.
I am not sure why you so strongly advocate a position that anyone who lived through it knows that it is false.
I am not sure why you find it so hard to believe that corrupt government leaders would try to manipulate the voters.
It seems like every President in Korea has been involved in numerous scandals. I mean presidents that have taken 100 of millions of dollars and stashed them away with family members or in their own slush funds. Suddenly these leaders are beyond any wrong doing when it comes to elections. Curious.
I think a better solution frenchie is prove this is not what happened. Why wouldnt a cholla based party, a region with anti american feelings manipulate public opinion to win an election.
Perhaps you believe your argument is stronger, this did not happen because you say you knew people involved. I think since many Koreans and outside observers believe that the ruling party manipulated public opinion to get elected, the burden to show otherwise is yours. Please feel free to tell us who you know and what they said. And if their comments support your assertions, please ask them why they would not use anti americanism to get elected. It would be nice to know.
“Who controls the media in Korea? Gov officials and talents getting up and chanting f the usa, and burning american flags, does happen without at least tacit approval by the government.”
It is you who keep asserting the above, and you have to prove it. This is not of a matter to disagree about because you are asserting what did not happen and creating problems that did not exist. You have to prove the government involvement in the particular report that you mentioned above. You are relying on the sort of summary of the army report on reports. Post the link to the particular “false” article, and PROVE the government involvement. About the incident at that time, there were all kinds of reports on it. You also have to prove that the government arranged the demonstrations. You are asserting your own false facts based on your speculation and belief. The then sentiment was not simply about the incident. Behind the anti-Bush sentiment (this expression more correctly stands for the sentiment at that time), there was a huge prevalent concern on the possible war over North Korea nuclear issue, which I mentioned in another thread. You also changed the subject to an irrelevant corruption issue. Which president were you talking about when you mentioned 100 million dollars? “Suddenly these leaders are beyond any wrong doing when it comes to elections”? I don’t understand what this means and who you are indicating. You should specifically say what you are asserting, and its relation with the government involvement and manipulation of the media regarding the anti-American sentiment and politics. I don’t understand you either when you said: “Why wouldnt a cholla based party, a region with anti american feelings manipulate public opinion to win an election.” Is this an assertion of facts? Then prove it.
Given, some comments are speculative in nature, but frenchie, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
As far as proof government agents incited the demos, I admit I do not have it. Just like I have no proof the man who attacked ms pak and cut her face was not getting paid on behalf of the opposing party.
I also strongly disagree that the demos were anti bush in nature. F the USA, burning american flags, attacking shoving, spitting on white people on the streets and subways of seoul and even the public relations director for USFK being stabbed near Itaewon. No, the chants and rants at the time were not anti bush, they were anti american. Their was a lot of complaining about the “unfair sofa” and all the usual garbage of how the USA looks down on Korea and does not respect it. Later after Roh took office, and the demos died down, it became more hate bush than anti american rhetoric.
It may suit your political needs to try to revise what happened in 2002, but many people besides you and I experienced it as well. I am sure other people on this blog have additional insight to what happened, and what has happened in korean politics.
Your posts ask for proof proof and more proof but your comments are the ones that go again prevailing wisdom. If you have inside information, that do share.
I think you are very aware that even when you have access to high level officials in korea, they rarely admit wrong doing. Again with what I know and what I have read, and what I have seen and experienced until you prove otherwise, I would have to say that its a duck. I would love for you to convince me otherwise, or show me some evidence to the contrary. Unless you can show something, we should save the space for other commentators. quack quack
I can really understand the frustration of you and the other Americans in the turmoil of 2002. There was a big confusion at that time – failure to distinguish the U.S. and the Bush Administration – worldwide as well as in the U.S. While you might have disturbing experiences at that time, it does not demonstrate any government involvement.
“It may suit your political needs to try to revise what happened in 2002, but many people besides you and I experienced it as well.”
When you said above, did you mean you and others had experienced the government involvement? What is my political need to revise what? You are assuming non-existent facts – government involvement in the anti-American sentiment, which I have not heard before I read them here, except for those by the ridiculous media that has accused the current administration as a leftist (the current government is not a leftist in any sense). I know the detailed events that happened in South Korea, and what you suspect did not happen, which is not a bad news for you. The situation in 2002 was out of control, and there were huge efforts of the the government against anti-American sentiment on street, in fact. Street protests, which is sometimes violent, was not uncommon in South Korea. By googling them, you can still find the report of government orders for the law enforcement to deal with the uncontrollable demonstrations and protect the foreign facilities in 2002. Especially, in 1980s, there used to be anti-government demonstrations of tens of thousands of people almost everyday. If people want to show their national reaction, they will come out of their home at any time. The three major newspapers, which have bigger influence than any other media, strongly opposed anti-American sentiment and demonstrations. They are not controlled by the government, of course. Because those newspapers had supported the “old power” like the GNP, they tried to label the government as a leftist, however. While it is true that the majority of the then people supported the government and its party and candidate for the issues that I mentioned above, it is absolutely untrue that they manipulated anti-American sentiment, which I surprisingly found out in this blog. This is not even a disputed fact. Such manipulation by the government did not happen, period. BTW, when I said I have known politicians in the GNP, which is the “old power” and the opposite party of the government, and the college socialists, I did not mean I know the officials of the government, while I happen to know some of them. I have known sort of high profiled politicians who have lost their influence since 1998, and my family member served two presidents in 1980s, which I don’t want to talk about. I have gained nothing personally, and actually lost a lot, for the 1997 and 2002 elections.
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