Here the news as I read it this morning:
- The government says it cannot confirm media reports that the Taliban is ready to release eight female hostages in return for the release of eight Taliban hostages.
- Freezone reports that the rumors floating around Saemmul Church, namely, the ones about the Foreign Ministry warning them over 20 times, canceling their tickers and even sending a chartered plane to bring them back from Afghanistan, are just rumors started by netizens.
UPDATE 1:
- The usual suspects are trying to turn this into a Korea-US issue, apparently. During a combined meeting of the National Assembly’s foreign affairs and defense committees, Democratic Labor Party lawmaker Kwon Young-ghil asked Foreign Minister Song Min-soon whether the government was discussing the prisoner release with the United States, saying that although it was the Afghan government that would be releasing them, it was the US opinion on the matter that was most important. Song replied that things weren’t at that stage yet. Meanwhile, independent lawmaker Choi Sung (who, BTW, is actually a very nice guy if you ever meet him in person) told Defense Minister Kim Jang-soo that the key to resolving this issue was the United States.
- The Taliban is now saying that if eight prisoners aren’t released by 2:00 pm Wednesday (6:30 pm Korea time), it would begin killing some (“a few”) of the hostages. A Taliban spokesman said negotiations with the Afghan government were deadlocked, and that Kabul was handling the issue “carelessly.”
- You might think my comment section anti-Christian, but at least none of my commenters have claimed to have emailed incriminating photos to the Taliban and asked that the hostages be killed, as some Korean netizens at DC Inside have done. (HT to Western Confucian)
UPDATE 2:
- The Taliban have killed one South Korean hostage. There are reports that eight Korean hostages have been freed.
UPDATE 3:
- The government has confirmed the murdered Korean was 42-year-old Pastor Bae Hyeong-gyu. The NYT reports his body has been transported to a nearby US military base. An Afghan official said the Taliban killed him since his health was deteriorating and there were no doctors or medical supplies to treat him.
- Meanwhile, there is confusion over whether the eight Korean hostages that were supposedly released have actually been released. AP, quoting
an Afghan government negotiatorWestern officials, reported eight hostages had been released and were being transported to a nearby US military base. NHK, meanwhile, quoting an Afghan negotiator (not sure if it’s the same one) said the hostages were being transported to a handover location when the kidnappers saw Afghan army armored vehicles, felt threatened, and returned with the hostages to their headquarters. - The NYT points out the obvious — this whole mess is very confusing.
UPDATE 4:
- Cheong Wa Dae has “strongly protests” the brutal killing of Pastor Bae. It also urged the kidnappers to return free the remaining hostages and said the organization responsible would be held accountable.
- This is ridiculous — the government still can’t confirm whether eight Korean hostages have been released. Yonhap reports that news of a prisoner exchange and ransom — first from foreign press and then from Korean government sources and officials — had raised hopes, but nobody knows where these supposedly freed hostages are. A government official told Yonhap that “now wasn’t the stage to confirm” reports that they’d been freed, and said that should they be free, the government would announce it. The Taliban, meanwhile, it denying any hostages were released.
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Tit for Twat?
The first time I read that the gubmint had canceled the plane tickets I had some doubts — it sounded like the Korea of the 1980s, rather than what can happen in a [supposedly] modern, democratic country. The government doesn’t own the airlines, so it sounds like a stretch. But of course, this is Korea, so a friendly call to Chairman Cho at KAL, or his counterpart at Kumho/Asiana could probably produce miracles. Still…
Railwaycharm, is that really necessary in this situation?
Come on Marmot, the best comedy is borne out of tragedy. These jokers in their hair-brain thinking put themselves in harms way. It would have been safer for them to swim in a sharks tank while menstruating then going to Talibanville.
Fuck the Taliban. Fuck militant Muslims. Now that the fucks figured their demand for ROK withdrawal was a moot, stupid request to begin with, now they demand cash for a phone call, then they say they’ll cut necks if the exchanges don’t go thru. Fucking assholes.
That’s why the US is in a war. To get rid of these fucking assholes. This is clearly not an appropriate way to accomplish political goals.
“at least none of my commenters have claimed to have emailed incriminating photos to the Taliban and asked that the hostages be killed.”
I think Robert makes a good point here in contrast to Western Confusion.
I hardly think Creo (although I don’t know him) or anyone else here is in the same league as these netizens, and in that regard, I think Western Confucian is overly dramatic in his condemnation:
“Foreigners here are not much better”.
At least I thought Creo and I were arguing that these people are who they are, and like the rest of us, consequently live and die as we are. If a photo or some document reveals who they are, then so be it.
And I say that NOT wanting anyone to die. Neither of us suggested actively promoting the documents.
Regarding the sending of pics to and emailing the Taliban, I think it is less in relation to the anger against Christians (as displayed here) as it is a symptom of the netizen culture in Korea: the “dog-poop girl” incident X 1000.
In all, I appreciate Robert’s even-handedness, and poo-poo Western Confucian’s theatrics.
How come Osama’s son is allowed to decorate tabloid pages with news of marrying a non-Muslim woman?
You don’t see the west counting days, make threats and tell Osama to get his ass out of the cave or see his son be executed on live video.
Actually, they could have done that a long time ago, with all of Osama’s long line of concubines, wife #x, and kid #30 and such.
People who equate Bush as evil as Osama are obviously douche bags.
Sorry,
“I think Robert makes a good point here in contrast to Western Confucian.”
No offense…
“You might think my comment section anti-Christian, but at least none of my commenters have claimed to have emailed incriminating photos to the Taliban and asked that the hostages be killed, as some Korean netizens at DC Inside have done. ”
No way. That is sickening. I hope the Korean government investigates. People have been sent to Guantanamo Bay for less, you know.
Well, on the bright side, Koreans emailing “the Taliban” (I’m dying to know what email this is, and what server it runs on…) and asking them to kill the hostages might actually work ever-so slightly in their favor.
Whats the shock of killing a hostage that everyone wants dead anyway?
#10.
Sure, I certainly sympathize with people who think that the hostages were wrong to go there…but wanting them dead? How could anyone want that?
Korean TV news cites an Al Jazeera report that 8 Korean females have been released and one Korean male murdered.
CNN is reporting that one Korean hostage has been killed.
Al Jazeera site reports one Korea male killed. Only the Korea news reports 8 Korean females released, but it says Al Jazeera is reporting this–I don’t see this on the Al Jazeera site.
I’m really surprised reading about Korean netizens’ criticism of those dummies that went to Afghanistan. Koreans, in South Korea, suggesting that it’d be OK for some faraway dark-skinned foreigners to cruelly execute some well-intentioned (but utterly stupid) Korean Christians. I can’t remember seeing Koreans act like that towards one another in front of foreigners.
Must be due to the anonymity of the internet.
Yonhap says money was paid for the release of the 8 women:
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2007/07/25/79/0301000000AEN20070725008300315F.HTML
Hmmm… “An unidentified Afghan official, however, earlier told Japan’s Kyodo News agency…”
Should this perhaps read “Japan’s Kyodo News Agency claimed they were told by an Afghan official they refused to identify…”
Does this seem a tad suspect, or have I been in Korea too long?
If ransom were paid I reckon the next demand will increase exponentially. And it’ll be paid.
The killing may already have started:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6915633.stm
Apparently the Korean who was killed was 42 year-old Bae Hyung-kyu (배형규).
Sketchy details but according to MSN
[quote]“a police official who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the situation said militants told him the hostage was sick and couldn’t walk and was therefore shot. “[/quote]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19913035/
Reuters is reporting that the terrorists have set a new deadline of 2030 GMT (1 am local, 4:30 am KST) for their demands to be met, else the remaining hostages will be killed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSISL4204720070725?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true
CNN and AP add that the murder victim was sick and unable to walk, and this contributed to his being shot.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/25/afghanistan.hostages/index.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QJKRRG0&show_article=1&catnum=0
#19 – Make that 5:30 KST.
Killing an unarmed person is forbidden by the Koran, it doesn’t condone the murder of innocents. They will be judged accordingly when they die.
I really wonder if money was given to the Taliban. Actually, I’m starting to doubt that receiving money ever was their intention. I’m guessing they would prefer a prisoner exchange–money is what petty thugs want, after all. I suspect their true intentions are to make the Afghan government appear corrupt. It would have many negative affects on the Afghan government’s image if they accepted the exchange as it would make they appear to have taken a bribe to do so. However, if they don’t accept to do the exchange, the government stabs one of its few allies in the back (two dozen hostages is significant). It’s a catch 22.
Terrible situation all around. I don’t support paying ransom money – that would potentially help fund the Taliban fight against NATO and the Afghan gov’t – but at the same time can’t fault the Korean gov’t for trying to gain the release of its citizens. Sure, these people really screwed up in going there and getting themselves in this position, but I would still hope that my country would try to help me if I found myself in such a dangerous situation.
Paying money for hostages isn’t an honorable solution but apparently it has been done before by foreign governments and if this was the case with this situation.
If the claims are true, I wonder if other governments worked with Korea to provide the funds. (I would hate to think that the US is one of them):
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/25/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Kidnappings.php
I am reading that it hasn’t been confirmed whether or not a Korean male really was killed as the groups claim regarding the German hostages was not accurate earlier on.
#11, “everyone” was a bit of hyperbole on my part, and I didn’t intend to include you among them. Clearly most don’t want them to die but obviously plenty do, certainly more than should.
I don’t think they did wrong per-se… clearly it is the Taliban that bears the brunt of this wrong, in accessory is the Korean government that is doing wrong by negotiating and paying money for their release; for all the reasons that should be obvious (never-the-less: perpetuation of further hostage taking, funding more terrorism through ransom money, rewarding terrorism etc…) As people we have the freedom to go to places we want, provided we take responsibility for that decision. They can’t be blamed for the government giving terrorists money.
The government did everything it could to warn them not to go there, therefor it is not the governments responsibility to save them. I know this conclusion is incompatible with Korean culture, but I believe it is morally right.
Er, I meant “considering the earlier, inaccurate claim about the German hostages” my English has just gone to hell these days. Apologies…
Thanks to those Christians, Korea has ended up funding the Talibans. Why can’t those Christians understand that they’re doing more harm then good?
Knew it. The Taliban is being a little political here. Much easier to kill one male and let 8 females go. If they kill a bunch of females (from a country that doesn’t have a history of imperialism in the Middle East), then the Taliban would loose a lot of respect, even in the Muslim world. But again, from a political perspective, it’s easier to kill men.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/24/AR2007072401851.html
By Suki Kim
Wednesday, July 25, 2007
The Taliban’s abduction of 23 South Korean Christian missionaries in Afghanistan last Thursday has put South Korea’s evangelical fervor under a microscope. Despite its long-standing shamanist, Buddhist and Confucian roots, South Korea has about 12,000 missionaries in 173 countries, second only to the United States. Today, almost half of South Korea’s population is Christian. I remember looking through the window of our fifth-floor apartment in Seoul as a child and finding the night sky peppered with bright-red neon crosses. When I moved to America in my teens, the first faces to greet me were those of the Korean American evangelical Christians at John F. Kennedy International Airport, eagerly awaiting new arrivals with Bibles and taped sermons.
Actually the first faces to greet her were immigration officials, but since they aren’t Korean they don’t exist.
Interesting that the venom directed at Christians by the Korean netizens seems to be outranking the nationalistic furor of concern for fellow Koreans that generally occurs in these type of situations. A massive accomplishment indeed, because trumping Korean nationalism is no easy feat.
Quite simply, the minute these people were captured was the end of any hope of a decent outcome. Their stupidity will now result in both death and a large influx of funds to the Taliban. Those funds will be used to not only recruit more sheep to the Taliban cause, but will also be very helpful in killing more innocent people, Christians included.
Hopefully their MT trip converted one or two Afghans along the way, because adding a soldier or two to God’s Army will have been worth the enormous costs, and their “courage” will have shone through sufficiently for “god” to look glowingly upon their stupidity.
Other missionaries may want to do the math before they go saving the world.
“Greet” is not the word I would use to describe how JFK immigration officials deal with new arivals.
AP is now reporting the identity of the murdered hostage: 42-year-old pastor Bae Hyung-kyu
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070725/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan
Here’s a related news story with a photo of pastor:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070725/28603_Body_of_S._Korean_Youth_Pastor_Found.htm
@ Slim,
Suki Kim’s numbers are wrong. About 25% of Koreans are Christian, which is half of the population that claims to be religious, not half the population in general. About half of all Koreans claim no religion at all.
Just hope rest of hostages return safely to their family ASAP.
In the 1970s and 1980s, many Western people were kidnapped by Muslim terrorists and held for ransom, exchange of prisoners, and sometimes killed. Terry Waite is a good example.
Two Soviets were kidnapped and later released unharmed. No further Sovits were kidnapped. Why? Because the KGB hunted down the kidnappers male relatives and killed and mutilated them.
If Korea wants to avoid more innocents like Pastor Bae and the others being kidnapped and murdered, perhaps the government should offer to increase Korean soldiers in Afghanistan by 100 for each Korean kidnapped, 200 for each Korean injured, and by 500 for each Korean killed.
Everyone around the world knows the prowess of the famous ROK Marines and other Special Forces. An arrangement such as I have outlined would probably be denounced by the craven–and the terrorists; but it could end all future such tragedies…
36. You got it right. It is the only thing they understand. Throwing money at this problem is wasteful. Send gunmen.
Send gunmen? Don’t bet on it. Not under this administration. I wouldn’t want to be a Korean in any of the Third World countries right now. Korean government has just sent another fat message to would be terrorists that if you kidnap Koreans, there’s a big reward in the end. Look for more Koreans to be kidnapped in the coming years.
Like this:
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200707/200707250014.html
If you’re a terrorist, you know that the Korean government will pay out every time. So why wouldn’t you kidnap a hangook-in?
“Interesting that the venom directed at Christians by the Korean netizens seems to be outranking the nationalistic furor of concern for fellow Koreans that generally occurs in these type of situations”
I don’t understand why this also has to become a race issue with you. But anyway, it’s nice to know that you have such a big kind heart.
“If they kill a bunch of females (from a country that doesn’t have a history of imperialism in the Middle East), then the Taliban would loose a lot of respect, even in the Muslim world.”
You really think so? These are the same guys that blew up the Twin Towers – both men, women, and children. You think they care about anything other then their evil god?
fuck Bin Laden. Maybe someone should go bomb his son’s wedding ceremony. And hold his estranged family members in the west hostage at gunpoint.
see how insane that is, and how evil it is?
Thank Bush for starting this necessary war to end such evil on the face of the earth.
Heck, I think 30 people died in terror attacks after Iraq beat South Korea. What the fuck is that?
I mean who the fuck can have the mentality to target people celebrating a national football team’s victory in an international event?
Some fuck from Syria or Iran who is a Islamic fundamentalist, who calls himself a holy warrior, and expects 70 virgins, that’s who.
murderers.
“Everyone around the world knows the prowess of the famous ROK Marines and other Special Forces. An arrangement such as I have outlined would probably be denounced by the craven–and the terrorists; but it could end all future such tragedies…”
It might work – I would guess that the Special Forces here would like to have the chance to smoke a bunch of Taliban. Or, better yet, slowly hunt them down in the mountains over the next few months or years. Violence is definitely a language the Taliban understand. Or such a move could backfire and result in reprisal attacks. But, you’d like to think that all options are on the table. (I would like to think that such options are actually on the ground and ready to go if need be.)
“If they kill a bunch of females (from a country that doesn’t have a history of imperialism in the Middle East), then the Taliban would loose a lot of respect, even in the Muslim world.”
“You really think so? These are the same guys that blew up the Twin Towers – both men, women, and children. You think they care about anything other then their evil god?”
Some of the Taliban might be aware that killing Korean women would not go over well in much of the Muslim world, but, perhaps just as important, I think that most Afghans would find the killing of female hostages less acceptable than of male hostages.
The Taliban hosted the guys who blew up the Twin Towers, but didn’t conduct that operation themselves. They’re a local organization. Rural Afghan fighters aren’t exactly ideal international terror op candidates. Most of these guys have likely never been on a plane. A great many, I would guess, are unable to read. I suspect few of them have much of a “world view”, so to speak.
I don’t think their god is any more evil than anyone/anything else that people choose to worship; it is their rigid interpretation of the Koran and violent take on their religion that is evil. That kind of extremism is not unique to Islam, though radical Islamists are hardly giving their religion very good press these days.
“Thank Bush for starting this necessary war to end such evil on the face of the earth.
Heck, I think 30 people died in terror attacks after Iraq beat South Korea. What the fuck is that?”
Probably more than 30. And, tragic as it may be, 30 dead in terror attacks is a pretty good day in Iraq these days. But, please bear in mind that Iraqis didn’t have to worry about post-soccer game terror attacks until Bush decided to invade and cause the disintegration of their country. Pre-invasion Iraq had – or should have had – nothing to do with the Taliban or the events of Sept. 11. Lumping together everything bad in the Muslim world is not much better than radical Islamists condemning everything Western, Christian, Jewish, etc.
I remain convinced that the war in Afghanistan was absolutely necessary, though I’m not sure what is supposed to define a successful conclusion to that mission.
Actually, one of the few Shuras I remember is: “God looks kindly on those who are merciful to women and children”. Let’s hope that these (likely illiterate) Jihadis have heard of it. It’s obviously not high on the suicide bomber’s list of favourite koranic expressions.
I think the term “clusterfuck” was coined just for this sort of situation.
Or “Mongolian clusterfuck,” if you’d prefer.
“If Korea wants to avoid more innocents like Pastor Bae and the others being kidnapped and murdered, perhaps the government should offer to increase Korean soldiers in Afghanistan by 100 for each Korean kidnapped, 200 for each Korean injured, and by 500 for each Korean killed.”
I actually had the same thing in mind…but my idea was more practical. Strike a secret deal with the Afghan government. The release some Taliban prisoners in exchange for the hostages and Korea commits itself to send combat troops to Afghanistan, many of which would be special forces. I would guess that Korean special forces are probably some of the best in in the world when it comes to mountainous terrain.
Wow. I should never post so soon after getting up.
“Killing an unarmed person is forbidden by the Koran,”
- Where in the Koran? Can you cite some text to prove this? I’ve read a good chunk of the book, perhaps about 50% of it — I don’t quite recall. I do remember its being a nauseatingly repetitive and uninteresting book.
“it doesn’t condone the murder of innocents. They will be judged accordingly when they die.”
- Well I’m not sure how “innocent” Korean missionaries in Afghanland are.
I feel genuinely sorry for the individuals and their family and friends and feel that pain, but at the same time there’s definitely that part of me that sides with others here and elsewhere who either couldn’t care less or believe these Christians get what is coming to them. In addition, one cynically thinks that these folks are Christians; the prospect of meeting up with Jesus should make them very happy.
Yawn. Where Spetznatz and UN forces have failed, you think a bunch a garlic-smelling black berets are going to solve the problem…?
Teh Internets can be such a great place after all…
For those who think military option is viable from South Korea.. You are day dreaming. Even if somehow the government can muster a backbone to send troops, they can’t ignore the fact that there is no Korean public sympathy for these hostages. There’s overwhelming sense that these guys and gals made their own beds so there’s no way the public will support more lost lives for nothing. Sending troops will cause anti war demos and riots throughout South Korea. Furthermore, talking about it is moot point. It just won’t happen.
#49
“And slay not the soul which God has forbidden except for the just cause…” (Koran 17:33)
“…If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind”
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)
“Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors.” (Koran 2:190)
“…when it is said to them; ‘Make not mischief on the Earth’, they say; ‘We are only peace makers’. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)
“Depart in the name of Allah, and by his help. And kill not any old man nor young boy nor child, nor woman, But be good doers for Allah loves those who do good.” (Hadeeth)
“The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and make reconciliation his reward is due from Allah: For (Allah) loves not those who do wrong.” (Koran 42:40) ”
In other words, killing is wrong if the person hasn’t killed. On top of that, the Koran teaches forgiveness: don’t kill those who repent. God looks favorably upon those who forgive.
Oups, #51.
“Even if somehow the government can muster a backbone to send troops, they can’t ignore the fact that there is no Korean public sympathy for these hostages.”
…because, according to my Korean friends, it makes Korea look like a bit player on the world stage…which is why I wouldn’t be surprised if many would accept a deployment of troops.
I was very much saddened to hear of Bae Hyeong-gyu’s murder. The man has a third-grade daughter and others that will miss him greatly. My prayers are with all of them.
There’s a simple reason why they can’t confirm if those 8 hostages were released. It’s because they weren’t released. Who is spreading this vicious rumor which is going to be devastating to the families, I don’t know.
Don’t forget that the Taliban are much the same people who were notorious for beating, imprisoning, and even publicly executing women for various offenses against their interpretation of Sharia. How much do you think they will hesitate before pulling the trigger on a woman or group of women who were openly attempting to subvert members of the faith? The main reason why any of these people are still alive is because they have a perceived usefulness – whether that is to secure the withdrawal of the Korean troops, to secure the release of Taliban captives, or to get money that can be used to carry on their religious war. Sadly, the missionaries here fell right into their laps, and might just end up creating even more destruction and suffering with their actions (albeit indirectly).
#54:
If the Koran is anything like the Bible, I’m sure it’s full of contradictory quotes that can be used to justify just about any abhorrent practice under the sun. Too bad far too many people put far too much stock in both books.
#59
I\’ve kept notes and copied some scripture from the Koran relating to the speciall issue of jihad and inter-faith politics, from the time I was reading about Islam a few years ago (perhaps piqued by 9/11 and because in general I find it\’s within my interest to study religious literaure for the sake of being a more effective atheist). Judging from what I ve copied, my conclusion back then is that Islam preaches patience (and justice by God) before aggression (justice by man). This seems to be the best interpretation.
Consider the following passage; 2:190 is at ends with 191, but 192 and 193 make it clear what the context (and meaning) for a bellicose line such as 191 really is:
^ However, the thing with Islam is that it\’s explicitly militant. There\’s no holding back of punches, no ambiguity. Relgious guidelines concerning retribution against active disbelief is pretty darn clear.
Other passages that I thought was relevant at the time:
Just for the sake of it, asking pardon for the tangent, a couple more passages:
The Disbelievers
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
[2.250] And when they went out against Jalut and his forces they said: Our Lord, pour down upon us patience, and make our steps firm and assist us against the unbelieving people.
Too bad there isn’t any God or Allah; only assholes with fictitious books. These Islamic murderers will suffer the same fate as us all, to become worm food and return back into earthly constituent parts. You could say I’m a non-believer.
Perhaps you’ll ask the same question of below Korean expert quoted by the BBC and obviously linking race and nationalism to this issue as well:
“Pastors of big churches want to show off that they are doing something great for Christianity. Korea is a small country that has achieved a strong economy, and it wants to show its success to the world,” said Chung-shin Park, Professor of Korean church history.
“Apart from the strong religious zeal, there is also a sense of nationalism behind this,” he said.
“The church’s ambition is to overtake the US and become the world’s number one exporter of missionaries within the next two decades.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6915268.stm
Is Park out of line in mentioning nationalism? Is the BBC?
My sympathies are reserved for those that don’t put the noose around their own necks while whistling at the hangman, urging him to get to work.
#59.
Yes, full of contradictions like the Bible. Just look at Lucifer (‘bearer of light’ in Latin). Lucifer is also known as the Morning Star, Phosphorus, Venus, and Ishtar (the goddess of love). Even Jesus is quoted as referring to himself as the morning star in the Bible. And yet, modern Christians think that Lucifer is the devil. Ironic, isn’t it?
I’m with you on this one, although I wouldn’t summarize life in terms of “worm food”. Then again, that reduction is at least more truthful than the ethical notions of an Arab having insider connections with an angel named Gabriel or the notion of a Jew with super powers.
I wonder if we could get away with chipping,releasing, and tracking the movements of some prisoners.
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