Marmot’s Open Thread #13

What say you?

PS: If you’re looking for news on the kidnapping in Afghanistan, check this post below — it’s being updated as news comes in.

52 Comments

  1. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Conversations overheard this evening at a discount store in my town:

    Conversation one:
    Mom: (grabbing lower face of toddler) I told you to shut the fuck up.

    Conversation two:
    Toddler in a stroller: da-da-da
    Acquaintance of mother: Shut up. You ain’t got no daddy.

    Conversation three:
    Cashier to customer: …She’s a crackhead….I warned my daddy that woman’s no good. …She’s wanted for a robbery. The police came to his house last night and tore through everything.

    All of the speakers were white, BTW. That mom who told her kid to STFU is June Cleaver compared to these moms who made the news this week:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16169566/

    http://www.kansas.com/520/story/126619.html

  2. wjk your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    http://gesomoon.gameshot.net/z.....amp;no=797

    iheartblueballs
    백악관은 자유훈장(Presidential Medal of Freedom)을 조지 테넌트한테 뺏어라!
    (혹은 폴 브레머, 그것도 아니면 도날드 럼스펠드)
    그걸 이 친구한테 달아주란 말이야!

    dogbertt
    아주 잘했어, 미스터 리!!!

    wjk
    어쨌건 쓰레기 같은 놈들이 너희를 쏘면,
    너희는 어떤 짓을 해서라도 그걸 되갚아 줘야 하는거야.
    그게, 굿바이 선물이 되도 정당한거지.
    실제 법이 어떨지는 모르지만,
    법은 이래야 마땅해.
    만약 니가 총을 들고 상점에 들어가면, 상점 주인이 너를 쏴 죽여도 아무말 할 수가 없어.

    Brendon Carr
    치명적인 무기를 자기 방어와 타인의 보호를 위해 사용하는 것이,
    그게 바로 소중한 미국인의 권리야.

    Cat
    아마도 그는 자기가 나온 뉴스 커버를 상점 문이나 어딘가에 자랑스레 걸어두겠지만..
    그걸 진짜 무장 강도단들이 읽을지도 몰라.
    내가 알기로는 미국의 많은 주가 살인 무기를 자신과 남을 방어하기 위해서
    사용하는 것을 법적으로 허가한다고 알고 있어.
    무기도 재산이라고 인정될껄.
    또 와 얽힌 상황에서는,
    강도중 하나가 살해당하면 남은 강도가
    동료의 죽음에 대한 책임도 져야 한다고 들었어.
    내가 알라바마에 살때 비슷한 일이 벌어졌는데,
    두 형제가 편의점을 털려고 결심했었어.
    그 상점 주인이 총을 든 강도를 보자마자 바로 총을 꺼내서 한명을 쏴 죽인거야.
    그리고 나머지 한명도 총을 맞춰서 중상을 입혔고.
    모든 일이 방범 카메라에 찍혔는데, 상점 주인은 무죄.
    대신 살아남은 강도가 다른 강도를 한 혐의까지 짊어져서 유죄 판결이 나더군.

    dogbertt
    난 그의 아내도 강도들에게 억류당했을 무서운 상황에서도,
    절대 겁먹지 않고 침착하게 행동했다는 것을 더 명예롭게 대우해줘야 한다고 생각해.

    hoju_saram
    판을 깨고 싶은 맘은 없지만 말야..
    근데 아무도 얼굴이 반쪽난채 도로를 기어다녀야 했던 친구는 불쌍하지 않은거야?

    JK
    ….

    slim
    그가 살아있다는 사실이 유감스러울까?

    Richardson
    그가 살았났다는게 행운일 뿐더러,
    그 좆대가리에 총알이 안박힌게 더 행운이라고 말해주고 싶다.
    요즘 갱스터들에게는 그다지 운이 없거든.

    dogbertt
    너 지금 미스터 리가 범죄자를 쐈다고 그걸 유감스럽게 생각해야 한다는거냐?
    뭐냐 너.

    The Goat
    전혀.

    Richardson
    한 더러운 자식은 뒈졌고, 한놈은 감옥이군.
    잘했어 미스터 리.
    저 위 사진에다 말풍선 좀 달아봐~

    PretentiousMusings
    멋지다 미스터 리.
    누군가가 죽었다라는 사실에 라고 말하면 안돼겠지만.
    다음번에는 그냥 애들한테 돈을 주고 말아버려.

    Richardson
    미스터 리 3, 강도 0.
    저 위에도 나왔지만, 단 두발로,
    압박을 받는 상황에서, 권총으로, 머리를 쏴 한놈은 죽이고 한놈은 도망치게 했다고.

    iheartblueballs
    너 무슨 건달 새끼들한테 환상이라도 갖고 있냐?

    Sonagi
    나도 소매점에서 일할때 총부리를 앞세운 강도들에게 돈을 뺏긴 적이 있어.
    그래서 미스터 리가 영웅이라는 생각은 못하겠다.
    리는 즉시 총을 빼들어서 쐈는데,
    그건 상점안에 있는 모든 사람들을 전부 위험하게 만든 행위였어.
    의 경우, 돈을 쥐어주면, 거의 상처없이 일이 해결된다고.
    금고에 들어있는 약간의 돈만으로, 니 목숨과 사원, 그리고 손님들의 목숨까지 책임지는ㄷ,
    리와 그의 가족, 그리고 손님들은 리가 굿 샷을 했기 때문에 살수 있었던 거야.
    이 영웅적인 이야기들은 처음 총을 쏜 사람이 실수를 하느냐 안하느냐에 따라서
    180도로 달라질 이야기였다고.

    Richardson
    이건 뭐 병신도 아니고..
    범죄자들이 총기를 손에 든채 가게에 들어온 순간 사건은 이미 벌어진거야.
    한놈은 마땅히 죽었고, 한놈은 약간 덜했지.
    그래서 법이 그걸 정당방어라고 인정한거잖아.

    Andy Jackson
    어쩌면 영웅은 아닐지 몰라.
    하지만, 정말로, 정말로, 정말로 멋진 사람이야.

    R. Elgin
    난 아직도 미스터 리가 누군가를 향해 총알을 발사한 것이 유감이야.
    비록 강도들이었지만, 그정도까지 해야 할 일인가..
    그닥 좋은 기분은 아냐.
    그리고 난 필라델피아가 싫어.

    seouldout
    자 보자, 두명이 총을 들고 들어온다.
    총으로 위협을 가한다.
    그런 다음에야 리가 총을 쏜건가?
    Sonagi, 그건 말도 안돼는 분석이야.

    cm
    4놈이 들어와서, 두놈은 죽고, 두놈은 병신이 됬어.
    왜냐면 리가 정확히 똑같은 행동을 1993년에도 했기 때문에.
    2007년에 완벽히 똑같은 데자부가 일어난거야.
    범죄자들은, 오히려 이 남자를 건들지 않아야해.
    왜냐면 그는 절대로 총을 빗나가게 쏘지 않아 보이거든.

    The Goat
    칭찬이 아깝지 않군.

    gbevers
    Sonagi, 미스터 리는 두명의 잠재적 살인자를 무력화 시킨거야.
    비록 미스터 리가 돈을 줬으면 그와, 그의 아내, 그리고 손님들의 안전까지
    지켜줄 수 있었을지 몰라.
    하지만 이 두명의 무장 강도들의 다음 희생자들은 그렇게 운이 좋지 않을 수도 있어.
    내 생각에, 미스터 리는 영웅이야.

    joshua
    모든 생명은 귀중하다고 여기지.
    하지만 그 가정은, 반박의 여지가 있다는 것.

    globalvillageidiot
    난 남이 다친 것에 기쁨을 느끼는 타입의 사람은 아니지만,
    미스터 리가 총을 쏴 두명의 인간 쓰레기를 치웠다는 사실에는 아주 기분이 좋다.

    —-

  3. BK your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    China on track to surpass Germany as the third largest economy in the world:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/new.....B142A0C%7D

  4. Posted July 21, 2007 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Hey, that’s pretty cool, wjk. It would have been even cooler if they’d linked to my post so that I’d known they did it.

  5. sesame seed your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Anyone heard of Ron Paul? If you’re not decided on a candidate can I point you guys to this site?

    http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

    To quote Stephen Colbert, “…an Engima, wrapped in a riddle, nestled in a sesame seed bun of mystery.”
    http://www.ronpaul2008.com/vid.....rt-report/

    Here is a brief overview of Congressman Paul’s record:

    Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:

    He has never voted to raise taxes.
    He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
    He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
    He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
    He has never taken a government-paid junket.
    He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

    He voted against the Patriot Act.
    He voted against regulating the Internet.
    He voted against the Iraq war.

    He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
    He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

    Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

    I’m sure he’s not well liked by either side and he probably doesn’t have many rich supporters, yet he’s starting out-pace Guliani for cash on hand. Grass roots baby!

  6. wjk your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    i just found it by accident. They’re watching you ;)

  7. Posted July 21, 2007 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Actually, they have a couple of my posts up.

  8. michael your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Sonagi, more reasons I’m glad I don’t live in the States anymore.

    It sounds like crack and meth are really huge problems there now–people who buy sudafed get a police visit?

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3390538

  9. R. Elgin your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    I must have some of the most stupid people in Seoul as my neighbors.

    I was in back of an apartment complex across from my building today and noticed several big containers of rain water that had many mosquito larvae wiggling in them. I dumped all the plastic containers out on the ground.

    Kwanak-gu really needs to educate their public on mosquitoes since these people living next to me are the same people who want idiots to drive around in trucks, fogging poison to kill mosquitoes — all while the morons are helping to breed the things!

  10. McGenghis your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    I think everyone from anywhere was on the train to Daecheon Beach today. It discouraged me, because I am easily discouraged and I miss my silent home where nothing happens and there are never people arguing in public being dramatic or anything so I promptly returned to Pyeongtaek.

    I invited my Korean students to my quiet home on an island ranked number 2 by the National Geographic once and they turned it down.

  11. Posted July 21, 2007 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Did the email I sent you last week with a link about the whitewashing of the Japanese flag get, ‘lost in the mail’ so to speak?

  12. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    @#2:

    There is another website that translates foreign language web forums, too.

    ‘It sounds like crack and meth are really huge problems there now–people who buy sudafed get a police visit?”

    It’s meth that become such a problem. I used to live in Illinois, and farmers there had to lock up their chemicals and equipment, lest they get stolen by meth makers.

  13. R. Elgin your flag
    Posted July 21, 2007 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Sonagi, I would seriously consider moving to a better town if that is the kind of scene you’ve got going there.

    That is rougher than D.C. even.

  14. cm your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    “Hey, that’s pretty cool, wjk. It would have been even cooler if they’d linked to my post so that I’d known they did it.”

    You should read the latest translations of your site - remember the dog meat post?

    I’ve known about that site for a while. It’s trash site with all the useless PC bang chain smoking starcraft netizens gather around to throw shit comments. Every one of them use third word as swearing or racial slurs like “jjange” (Chinese), or “jokbari” (Japanese).
    They are not intelligent forum commentators for sure. The site takes news bits about Korea from China, Japan, and North America. They then translate the netizen postings making comments on those stories (which many are racist comments). Sites like Marmot, ESLcafe, Sina.com (Chinese portal), and 2ch(Japanese). I learned a few things by reading the many translated comments. Terms like “ppangchi” (Racial slur for Korean in Chinese), and “chyontti” (racial slur describing Koreans in Japanese).

    It’s basically in summary, trash attracting trash where they call each other racial slurs - although I have no ideal how much anti-Korean feelings there really are in China and Japan. If you read strictly this site, you’d get the feeling that there is quite a bit of bad feeling toward Koreans.

  15. bumfromkorea your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Well, Tempe’s considered a pretty safe city by U.S. standard, but we still have meth addicts walking around like zombies at 11 pm in the morning.

    Last Friday, the county hospital I volunteer at (I work in OR) received 5 guys who shot each other in a gunfight with assault rifles. Talk about a gruesome scene.

    It really depends on which part of a city you live in (you know… blighted, near a blight, or the semi-suburban ring).

  16. Creo your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    “Last Friday, the county hospital I volunteer at (I work in OR) received 5 guys who shot each other in a gunfight with assault rifles. Talk about a gruesome scene.”

    Koreans ask me all the time when I am going back to the USA. “Everyone wants to live there,” is what my boss’s wife tells me.

    Having been shot in the head with a pellet gun (came out of a passing car) in Los Angeles and chased by gang members in Chicago because I didn’t “have a light…” I just laugh and say I have no plans to go back to the USA anytime soon. Koreans never believe me.

  17. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    “I invited my Korean students to my quiet home on an island ranked number 2 by the National Geographic once and they turned it down.”

    LOL. Reminds me of the experiences of a Canadian teacher friend in Victoria. On trips up north BEAUTIFUL Vancouver Island, a few Korean students have wondered aloud what the point of the trip was.

    “Sonagi, I would seriously consider moving to a better town if that is the kind of scene you’ve got going there.

    That is rougher than D.C. even.”

    Overall, the town is pleasant and charming. It is a small town waking up as northern Virginia encroaches, and the PWT at the discount store are outnumbered by educated, middle-class regional transplants. I feel safer here than I did in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, where I fled my first apartment mid-lease after a drug dealing neighbor’s customer accosted me in the parking lot, and another neighbor two doors down had his home raided by the police. Upstairs from me in my current abode is a growing Mexican family whose three kids and their two friends run, stomp, jump, and crash into furniture all afternoon and evening in their tiny two-bedroom apartment. My landlord encouraged me to write complaint letters to give them grounds for eviction. I declined. I’ll take a noisy, happy Mexican family as neighbors over PWT or drug dealers any day.

    “I have no ideal how much anti-Korean feelings there really are in China and Japan. “

    I can’t speak about Japan, but there was palpable resentment of Koreans in Qingdao, China, where I lived for four years. This resentment seems to be in response to the perception that Koreans look down on the Chinese as dirty, lazy, and inept. Having heard Korean adults and kids make insulting remarks about China and the Chinese, I think this perception is accurate. (tu quoque pre-emptive: There are Westerners who look down on the Chinese, too, but this is irrelevant to cm’s query.)

    I don’t know if you recall the Korean women’s skating team “Baekdusan uriddang” bruhaha, but Chinese netizen reactions were extremely vicious - loaded with national and sexual insults. China may be economically less developed than Korea, but the Chinese remember that Korea was once a tributary state of China. Expressions of Korean nationalism like the skating team stunt and revisionist/fantasy Korean dramas are juicy fodder for Chinese BBSes.

  18. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    “…I have no plans to go back t the USA anytime soon.”

    Click here to see one very important, mouth-watering reason why I came back to the US:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/62177820@N00/

    The produce in the photos is all locally grown, organic fruits and vegetables bought directly from the farmers who grew them at community farmers’ markets. Most of it was picked ripe one to two days before being sold and thus is loaded with flavor and nutrients. It feels good knowing exactly where my food comes from. I feel like I’m still detoxing after four years of eating in China.

  19. Posted July 22, 2007 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Haha…Sonagi, I had the exact experience that you described
    “On trips up north BEAUTIFUL Vancouver Island, a few Korean students have wondered aloud what the point of the trip was.”
    A few years ago I was in Van. to mix it up for the Jazz festival and a couple of my former students from Seoul were there. A group of us made plans to go to Tofino on Vancouver Island for a short camping trip, so I invited my students to join in, thinking that it would be a lot of fun and good sight seeing as well. I soon realized my error in judgment as their comments ranged from “you mean we are going to sleep in that tent?” to “there really isn’t anything to do out here” as well as “why are we walking along this trail?”
    As soon as the sun was up, they were packing up the cars and ready to hit the road. hahah!

  20. Creo your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Sonagi,

    “Click here to see one very important, mouth-watering reason why I came back to the US:”

    I must admit one of my biggest gripes with Korea continues to be the price of fruit. Except for bananas, I pretty much eat fruit out of a can now as I am sick of paying more than a dollar for an apple or pear only to find it has been in the store too long and is rotten inside.

    The other day I saw a small plastic container of blueberries in a market and stopped to check the price. No more than thirty five small blueberries for the equivalent of five dollars. I assume they were organic, but come on.

    “I feel like I’m still detoxing after four years of eating in China.”

    When I was biking in Vietnam a few months back they had a fresh fruit drink in the city of Da Nang that was awesome. They would put a variety of fresh tropical fruit in a glass and put shaved ice on top. Over that they would pour crème. Crush it with a spoon and you got a smoothie. After two of those I got a rush that I haven’t felt in four years.

  21. Hwarang your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    With all the talk lately about building parks, businesses, or shopping malls on Yongsan after the units there move to P’yongt’aek, I’ve started noticing the small base adjacent to the Capital Hotel in Yongsan. It seems to be an abandoned area now overgrown with weeds. I’m really curious, with all the land developers drooling over the opportunity to get a piece of Yongsan, why this area is still untouched. Any insights?

  22. Creo your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Hwarang,

    My guess is until an agreement soldifying the clean up of all present and former US bases in Korea is agreed upon, there will be no development on any of them.

  23. cm your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    “I can’t speak about Japan, but there was palpable resentment of Koreans in Qingdao, China, where I lived for four years. This resentment seems to be in response to the perception that Koreans look down on the Chinese as dirty, lazy, and inept.”

    Read what the Japanese are saying about those dirty, lazy, and inept Koreans LOL. I guess turn around is fair play?

    http://gesomoon.gameshot.net/z.....mp;no=1164

  24. wjk your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Juugp01c
    ■한자는 오(呉)에서 일본으로 전해져, 일본에서 백제(百済, ミマナ; 미마나)로 전해졌다.
    일본어 한자독음(음독)은 전통적으로 , 이라 부르는 2가지 계통이 있다.
    오음은 구시대(기원전 2세기 무렵)에 수입된 소리, 한음은 보다 신시대의 소리라고 한다.
    이 사실은 일본에의 한자 전파가 오에서부터 온 것을 증명하고 있다.
    한국인의 주장에 의하면 한자는 우선 반도 북부의 후요족이 사용하기 시작해,
    그 후요족이 반도 남부를 정복, 반도 남부에 한자가 전해져 반도 남부에서 일본 열도로
    한자가 전해졌다, 라고 말한다.
    하지만 그런 것은 있을 수 없는 것이다.
    (우선 후요족이 반도 남부를 정복했다고 하는 사실이 없다)
    한자가 정말로 반도 북부 -> 반도 남부 -> 일본 열도, 라는 흐름으로 전해진 것이라면
    일본의 한자음은 한음이 기본이 아니면 안된다.
    그러나 실제는 오음이 메인이다.
    한국어의 한자음도 고대로는 오음이 기본이었는데,
    그것은 반도의 한자가 일본에서 전해진 것이기 때문이다.
    즉, 오 -> 일본 -> 반도 남부 -> 반도 북부, 이런 흐름이다.
    한자는 일본에서 반도 남부로 전해졌다고 생각해야 하는 것이다.
    덧붙여서 조선, 한국인이 한자를 사용하게 된 것은 7세기 이후이다.
    백제인은 4세기부터 사용하고 있지만,
    이것은 일본인이 백제인에게 한자를 가르친 것이 4세기 무렵부터이기 때문이다.

    * 백제의 일본어 독음은 지만 굳이 옆에 미마나(ミマナ)라고 쓴 이유는 불명. 본래 미마나(彌摩那)는 신채호 선생의 주장에 따르면 밈라, 즉 임라(任那)의 다른 이름입니다. 위 네티즌은 백제 = 임라일본부라는 낚시글을 연속으로 투고 하고 있는 중인 것 같습니다. 참고로 한반도에서 한자가 들어온 것은 철기 시대이며, 그 시기는 북한 학자들은 기원전 8~7세기, 남한에서는 7세기에서 기원전 2~1세기까지로 보는 등 큰 격차가 있는데 한국의 철기시대를 늦춰 보는 시각은 소위 식민학자들의 주장에 따른 것입니다

    cm, good link. I found that gesomoon by accident, but you seem to have known well of it before hand.

    Anyway, this I found interesting.

    So, Japan claims they got Chinese letters from southern China, then the Japanese educated Korean Baek Jae, 오(呉)에서 일본으로 전해져, 일본에서 백제(百済, ミマナ; 미마나)로 전해졌다.

    With my Cantonese speaking Chinese friend, who is obvioiusly from southern China, I find that many Cantonese pronounciations and words of Chinese letters can be conceivably stretched to sound similar to how Koreans say it. This is quite an interesting point to me.

    Of course, the Koreans say that Chinese letters came from China to Korea, then to Japan.

    Japan claims. China to Japan, then to Korea.

    I think Japan is wrong.

    However, regardless of how Chinese letters came to Japan, it is quite clear that the southern Chinese way or saying it orally came to Korea and Japan.

    If I were to come up with a theory, O or Wu of China gave to to BaekJae Korea, then to Japan.

    Hanja probably went to BaekJae first, like the Japanese claim. Shilla was at a naval disadvantage, being at the East. Koguryo probably had a disadvantage having hostilites militarily with the North.

    It’s a theory, but it’s interesting to me that O-eum is surely present in Korean and Japanese pronunciation of Hanja.

  25. pawikirogi your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    ‘With my Cantonese speaking Chinese friend, who is obvioiusly from southern China, I find that many Cantonese pronounciations and words of Chinese letters can be conceivably stretched to sound similar to how Koreans say it. This is quite an interesting point to me.’

    Of all the Chinese dialects, Cantonese probably sounds the closest to ancient Chinese. That’s why Korean-Chinese words sound more similar to Cantonese words than mandarin ones.

    ‘and revisionist/fantasy Korean dramas are juicy fodder for Chinese BBSes.’ sonagi

    What’s revisionist about them? That they claim Koguryeo as part of Korea’s historical timeline? I think the ones being revisionist here are the Chinese. And maybe you.

    As for the Koreans looking down on the Chinese, it’s interesting to see the reaction from the Chinese is to find ways to look down on Koreans. gaoli bautzi

    Lastly, another word about Japan, quite a few questions about the relationship yamato had with baekche could be answered if Japan would allow excavation of the tenno tombs from the time period in question. It’s interesting the Japanese refuse to do so. They say it’s about spirits but then, they have no problem opening up tombs from other time periods. Of course, the Japanese would respond that some have been opened. yes- by accident. AND all the goods were carted off and locked away. You can’t look at them. Interesting.

  26. michael your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    AsiaTimes on China’s dubious welcome to N.K. refugees–the women, anyway (from Lost Nomad)

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/IG20Ad01.html

  27. dda your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    … walking around like zombies at 11 pm in the morning…

    yeah meth does that I suppose, bringing the pm into the morning…

  28. dda your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Cantonese and the Korean pronunciation of sinograms have some things in common, like the final stops — p/t/k == p/L/k in Korean. But there are lots of things that went “wrong” between Middle Chinese and Cantonese on the one hand and Sino-Korean. Vowels differ quite a bit [Sino-Korean's vowels are closer to Mandarin's actually]. In Cantonese, the initial h- has disappeared before wo/wa [probably voiced. See for instance 黃 Korean hwang, Mandarin huang, Cantonese wong].
    On the other hand Cantonse has consonants and vowels neither Mandarin nor Korean have, like initial [ng-], as in 我 ngo in Cantonese, wo in Mandarin, a in Korean; or [ü], as in 月 yüt in Cantonese, yue in Mandarin, wol in Korean…

  29. michael your flag
    Posted July 22, 2007 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Wow…while flipping channels tonight (Sunday 10 p.m.), KBS2 has its unfunny comedy show on and there’s a Korean guy in “black” makeup talking in ebonics….

  30. kimchipig your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    Songi, your point about Vancouver Island really struck a chord with me. So many times I have told Korean students about the wonderful things they can see only a short distance from Vancouver but they never do. They stick to Robson St, eat in Korean restaurants and drink $25 bottles of soju. I often wonder why they came here to begin with.

  31. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    “As for the Koreans looking down on the Chinese, it’s interesting to see the reaction from the Chinese is to find ways to look down on Koreans. gaoli bautzi”

    What’s a “gaoli bautzi”? Oh, you must mean “gaoli bangzi.” That term was originally coined to put down desperate refugees from North Korea, but usage has been expanded to all Koreans. Hate begets hate.

  32. cm your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 2:52 am | Permalink

    “That term was originally coined to put down desperate refugees from North Korea”

    which tells me this has got nothing to do with arrogant history revisionist South Koreans.

  33. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    It does and it doesn’t. When Chinese call South Koreans “gaoli bangzi,” it is usually in one of two contexts:

    a) a response to a bilateral dispute like history

    b) a response to a personal conflict with South Koreans

    Epithets are epithets. I’ve been called a miguknom by South Korean netizens. Does that mean South Koreans look down on Americans? Some expats think so. Korean netizens routinely call the Japanese “jjokbbali.” Do South Koreans look down on the Japanese? Dislike is not synonymous with condescension. One can dislike a person or a group without viewing them as inferior. Resentment, in fact, often targets people who are socially or economically superior.

  34. wjk your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    good point, Pawi. Even a simple dna test might reveal a lot. Of course it will never happen.

    Thanks for your expertise, Monsieur Dda.

    Your knowledge of languages include French, English, Chinese, and Korean, and perhaps more, right?

    Thank you. It’s very helpful.

  35. pawikirogi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    ‘Hate begets hate.’ sonagi’s excuse for the chinese

    well, yes, it does; and before the chinese started to revise korea’s history, i had very positive feelings towards them.

    but good to see you pinning the blame on koreans. i got your ticket.

    btw, what was revisionist about those k dramas? koguryeo is korean. the koreans can do what they want with their history.

  36. pawikirogi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    ps sperwer, you said this:

    ‘koguryeo isn’t korean but maybe they’ll take better care of koguryeo’s legacy…’

    won’t you please provide support for your contention? ‘pow pow’ still waiting for you to back up your claim.

    lol.

  37. Sonagi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    Don’t confuse an explanation with an excuse. There is never an acceptable excuse to hate or hurl epithets. That includes the Chinese. “Gaoli bangzi” is an objectionable term regardless of the context in which it is used. RE historical revisionism, I was referring to those infamous history books that located Baekjae in eastern China and that fantasy drama which expanded Dangun’s kingdom to the borders of Xinjiang and Tibet. As for Goruyeo being Korean versus Chinese, history is rooted in the land and in the culture. Some Goguryeo territory is now part of China and thus Goguryeo belongs in national history books. The culture of Goguryeo was probably more closely related to other ancient Korean kingdoms than to Tang. Evidence of this is found in the murals inside Goguryeo tombs and in tomb artifacts. The Chinese should acknowledge Goguryeo as cultural ancestors of Koreans, and obviously, they don’t.

  38. wjk your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    I don’t know what’s so infamous about Baekjae having had land in Eastern China. So did Goguryo. And it’s not based on Samguk Sagi of Samguk Yusa.

    Did you know that?

    The sole evidence is based on. Gasp !

    Chinese books !

    Look up Nam Buk Jo Si Dae.

    China was divided. Sometimes into way more than 2 fragments.

    Goguryo is definitely Korean. Koryo chose itself to model on as a continuation of Goguryo. SamGuk Yusa and Sagi were written during Koryo times, under a Koryo King.

    If Goguryo was a Chinese kingdom, it doesn’t make sense that a Korean civil war of more than 50 years duration, would culminate into a Korean king naming his kingdom after a Chinese kingdom, and writing history books detailing Goguryo as a survivor and champion against mainland Chinese kingdoms, causing one unified Chinese kingdom, Sui, to fall after 2 defeats against Goguryo.

    What I don’t understand is how come Sagi nor Yusa has almost nothing to say about Bal Hae. Dae Jo Young is assumed to be Korean. All we know about Bal Hae is some artifacts, and names of the kings. Nothing else. Absolutely nothing. This makes very little sense when Koryo claims that Bal Hae Yu Mins were absorbed into Koryo after their fall.

    Given that Yusa and Sagi were written hundreds of years after the events, why was it so difficult to include their history from oral tradition and recall into Yusa and Sagi? After all, Yusa and Sagi cover the whole period of Wang Kon, Kyun Hwon, and Shilla’s 50 year 3 way fight.

    Bal Hae, I suspect, may not be Korean and was not seen to be very Korean during Koryo times.

  39. wjk your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    or, the Wangs of Koryo were too short sighted and feared the Dae family, who also had every right to claim Goguryo’s continuation. Thus, zero mention of Bal Hae’s history. There aren’t too many Wangs thanks to the Lees and there curiously aren’t too many Dae’s.

  40. BK your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    I’m sure folks here have seen it already, but the NYTimes has an interesting video on Japan rearming. Also, there’s a book called Japan Rising I’ve seen in book stores that I’d like to read soon. Anybody read it yet?

  41. cm your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Have a look this video. Look at the guy getting dropped. It’s damn funny.

    http://gesomoon.gameshot.net/z.....mp;no=4897

  42. wjk your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    looks like you like gesomoon a lot, cm.

    I 2nd cm. Have a look at the video.

  43. wjk your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    so, what the hell is gesomoon?

    How do they translate all the stuff?

    can’t be babel fish. Babel fish is horrendous.

  44. cm your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, it’s trash. But like flies that attract to shit, it’s fascinating, especially when bored.

  45. SomeguyinKorea your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    #2

    Wow, thanks. And I thought I was in need of a new hobby.

  46. dda your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for your expertise, Monsieur dda.

    Your knowledge of languages include French, English, Chinese, and Korean, and perhaps more, right?

    Thank you. It’s very helpful.

    Indeed. The list extends into dead and not so dead languages, from Japanese to 11th Century Korean, which is quite different from today’s language used in PC bang / Naver comments that passes for Korean.

    On the other hand, I never learned to say “2 beers and a plate of fries” in Old Korean or 13th Century Mongolian, so the helpfulness of this knowledge is dubious… :-P

  47. Gerno your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    @#20

    That was the old UN Compound (I was married there) and that was an area that was chosen to be built up commercially. Whereas other camps are supposed to be made into parks. It will probably be built on starting next year after Seoul City announces the plans for the Yongsan New Town project for the areas between Panpo Bridge and Hannam Bridge later this year.

  48. pawikirogi your flag
    Posted July 23, 2007 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for your clarifications, lady sonagi. I appreciate it.

    ‘The Chinese should acknowledge Goguryeo as cultural ancestors of Koreans, and obviously, they don’t.’ sonagi

    Yes, they should, but the Koreans must do something too. They must state in public that a unified Korea will have no interest in territory north of the Yalu. Not only must they say that, they must sign a declaration to that effect.

  49. Goku your flag
    Posted July 24, 2007 at 4:57 am | Permalink

    “…the korean must do something too. they must state in public that a unified korea will have no interest in territory north of the yalu…”

    I believe the SK gov’t already has stated this during talks with China (let a unified korean gov’t deal with a declaration when one comes into existence).

    On the other hand I am really disappointed with the SK gov’t move to counter China by distorting Korean history. Hell when I was going to school in Korea history started at the Three Kingdoms period. Bal hae wasn’t even mentioned either.

  50. seouldout your flag
    Posted July 26, 2007 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    Brown University reports that North Korea’s global e-government rating has dropped from 17th to 30th. South Korea is still #1.

    I’d love to know how they gathered the data on the North.

  51. Ut videam your flag
    Posted July 26, 2007 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Good column on the Chosun Ilbo English site today about how Korean consumers have seen past the anti-US beef tomfoolery. Unlike some commenters around here, the author blows away the pseudo-scientific alarmist smokescreen and puts his finger on the real problem: anti-American ideology.

    http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....60018.html

  52. JK your flag
    Posted July 28, 2007 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Yo Doggie! You did some serious READING last night (your afternoon) of my blog. IPs, dude….IPs, even if you do come in anonymously.

    Plus, about two weeks ago, ever since I opened up the blog, I had someone else in Australia do some reading….and then shared my entry about the infamous stalker, who went by the ID, “Kyopoboy” (though he’s anything but) with someone in China. Weirdo.

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