Yonhap (Korean) reports that an unknown number of Koreans have been abducted off a bus in Ghazni province, Afghanistan.
Two Germans and six Afghans were abducted yesterday.
A later Yonhap report quotes a Korean government source as saying about 20 Koreans, apparently young folk doing — you guessed it — missionary work in Afghanistan were kidnapped.
UPDATE: The Foreign Ministry is still trying to get a handle on the situation. A source told Yonhap News that 23 Koreans were kidnapped, and that they belong to a Korean Christian group, although the Foreign Ministry is still waiting for more information to confirm.
The abductees were riding a bus from Kandahar to Kabul when they were taken by armed assailants.
Yonhap said there are reportedly some 120 Korean missionaries residing long-term in Afghanistan (a country where even the current government came close to sentencing a man to death for apostasy), although some go back and forth from Korea.
You all know how I feel about Christian missionaries in Muslim war zones — if not, here’s my 2004 rant on the subject (warning: very angry).
The Foreign Ministry plans to advise Koreans to leave the country for their safety.
Lest it be forgotten, Korea has 210 troops in Afghanistan — 60 medics and 150 engineers, one of whom was killed in a suicide bombing attack on Bagram Air Base in February.
UPDATE 2: The Taliban claim they are holding 18 Koreans — 15 men and three women:
“They are safe with us, we are investigating them and our demands and reaction will be announced later.” said Taliban spokesman Said Yousuf Ahmadi by telephone from an undisclosed location.
We can get an idea what those demands might be from this:
“The German citizens are safe with us. Our demand is the withdrawal of German troops from Afghanistan and also the release of our prisoners,” said Taliban spokesman Yousuf Ahmadi.
UPDATE 3: The WaPo reports the male female ratio is 15 women and three men. All I know is the list of names (reported in the Chosun Ilbo) of the Bundang Saemmul Church group sent to Afghanistan includes 13 women and seven men.
It also appears they weren’t engaging in missionary work per se, but rather performing volunteer work at a hospital and kindergarten in Kandahar (which I can respect putting your life on line to do, although that sort of stuff — at least in war zones — is best left to trained personnel, which I can only hope these folk were).
UPDATE 4: The Foreign Ministry has officially confirmed — finally — that “about 20″ Koreans were kidnapped. The Foreign Ministry is assembling a team led by a vice foreign minister to handle the crisis, and the government said it would do everything to bring the captives back home safely and as soon as possible.
The abductees are believed to be the 20 members of the church group and several members of an NGO working in Afghanistan. The NGO members were acting as guides for the church group.
According to the Hanguk Gyeongje (Korean), there are about 200 Koreans in Afghanistan (not including troops), the majority of whom are Christians doing volunteer work in the country. The NGO that arranged for the Bundang church group to come is the Institute of Asian Culture and Development (IACD), which specializes in development projects in Central Asia (including Mongolia) and the Middle East, which sounds all nice and good until you realize that it’s associated with InterCP, a Christian group dedicated to spreading the faith to the “unreached tribes of Eurasia.” InterCP has sparked controversy before by putting its members in harm’s way with “Israel & Palestine Peace Marches” in 2004 and 2005 and last year’s attempted “Rejoice! Afghanistan” Afghan peace celebration, and is probably not an organization on the Taliban’s Ramadan card list.
To be fair, the IACD has previously denied being involved in missionary work.
UPDATE 5: The Taliban has made its demand — Taliban spokesman Yousuf Ahmadi told AP that Korean troops must be withdrawn from Afghanistan by noon Saturday or the 18 captives will be killed (via Yonhap Korean).
Granted, Korea has only 210 troops in the country, but is it even physically possible to withdraw all of them by noon tomorrow?
The Afghan Interior Minister, BTW, doesn’t appear particularly impressed by the church group’s decision-making:
“Twenty-three Korean citizens, 15 women and five men, were very carelessly traveling in a chartered bus from Kabul to Kandahar yesterday, on the way to Kandahar their bus was stopped by armed men… and they took them away,” said Interior Minister spokesman Zemari Bashari.
The National Post has more on the activities of Korean missionaries in Afghanistan:
Last year, the South Korean government tried to stop a group of 2,000 Korean Christians traveling to Afghanistan for a peace conference, fearing for their safety.
But 900 of them still came to Afghanistan, causing an uproar in the staunchly Muslim country, where many accused them of being evangelical missionaries, before they were all deported.
Afghanistan’s ambassador to South Korea was later sacked for issuing the group with visas, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.
Meanwhile, an elder from the Presbyterian church that sent the volunteers said that a media report that the volunteers wrote wills before they left has yet to be confirmed.
UPDATE 6: The Korean military is rather bewildered by all this, reports Yonhap. Korea’s medical and engineering units are supposed to be withdrawn from Afghanistan by the end of the year anyway. At any rate, the military reportedly wants to highlight the fact that Korean troops have never been involved in combat and are there to rebuild Afghanistan’s social overhead capital and provide medical services to Afghan citizens.
Like the Taliban will give a shit.
Korea’s engineering corps has completed some 330 construction projects in Afghanistan, including repair work on the runway at Bagram Airbase, construction of base defenses, and restoration and expansion of neighboring roads. They’ve even received a US Army award for construction of a 7-meter pole barn — the largest wooden structure in Afghanistan, apparently — in extreme weather conditions.
Korea’s medical and engineering corps have also received praise from allied military and local Afghans alike for their good-will activities, which include taekwondo lessons and Korean classes.
As opposed to the activities of Korean missionaries, which seem to be pissing everyone off.
Anyway, a Defense Ministry official said Korean troops have been involved mainly in peace and reconstruction missions and providing medical care to Afghan citizens, and that this mission would not change.
On a positive note, the Taliban — humanitarians that they are — told Deutsche Presse-Agentur that the noon deadline could be extended once authorities from the nations involved (i.e., Germany, Korea and Afghanistan) contacted them.
The Korean Embassy in Kabul, meanwhile, said they’ve yet to confirm any of the Taliban’s demands, but did say there is a rumor floating around the Ghazni provincial government — which is apparently trying to contact the group — that the Taliban is demanding the release of one of their operatives.
UPDATE 7: It looks like the German hostages were killed when Berlin refused to talk with the Taliban, reports Al Jazeera.
Yonhap, meanwhile, reports (quoting Al Jazeera) that thanks to Seoul’s active attitude, the Korean hostages are safe despite the deadline passing. Al Jazeera’s Kandahar correspondent said (and I’m quoting from Yonhap’s Korean version) that because the Korean government appears likely to accept the Taliban’s demands, the Korean hostages have been kept safe. This is news to me, because Seoul has been saying that there would be no change to the schedule of Korea’s troop withdrawal.
BTW, I’m not entirely pleased with AP’s headline, “S. Korea to Pull Troops From Afghanistan.” This makes it look like Seoul has caved in to the Taliban’s demands, which — as far as the public knows — it hasn’t.
Back to the Al Jazeera piece for a second — Afghan officials are none too pleased with the Korean volunteers:
Afghan officials expressed anger because the Koreans did not tell them about their visit nor organise security forces for protection during their travels.
The Ghazni governor was even more direct:
Mirajuddin Pattan, Ghazni governor, expressed anger at the presence in his part of the country of such a large number of foreign nationals.
Speaking to AFP news agency, Pattan said: “They must have thought they are in Korea, not in war-torn Afghanistan.
“They did not contact us, police or the security forces for protection while travelling in this region.”
I’m not sure if these folk knew where they were going.
UPDATE 8: The Taliban is now saying it would be willing to trade its 23 Korean hostages for 23 Taliban prisoners held in Afghan jails. Yonhap reports, however, that the Korean government has its work cut out for it trying to convince Kabul to go along with this.
Yonhap points out that there has been a case of such an exchange — in March, Italian reporter Daniele Mastrogiacomo, her interpreter and driver were released after two weeks in Taliban custody after Kabul freed three Taliban prisoners. Kabul was initially reluctant to go through with the trade, citing its principle not to negotiate with terrorists, but eventually agreed to free five Taliban prisoners after Italy apparently threatened to pull out its troops from the country.
The United States and Great Britain slammed the deal, saying it would encourage more terrorism. And wouldn’t you know it, in April, two French relief workers were kidnapped, with the Taliban demanding, among other things, the release of Taliban prisoners. So yes, the Afghan government — and the international community — is afraid of encouraging more kidnappings, and even President Karzai said the deal to free the Italian reporter was a “one-time deal.”
Just to add my own 2 cents, I get the feeling Seoul is going to be in for an especially tough time convincing Kabul to do anything for these hostages. First off, Afghan officials have been openly irate about the irresponsible behavior of the Koreans who were taken. Second, Italy had a much better hand to play with 2,000 troops, including combat troops. Korea only has 210 troops in the country, and those are scheduled to be withdrawn by the end of the year. Not a whole lot of cards to play, unless Seoul decides to try to go through Washington, which I doubt very strongly would be effective.
231 Comments
I’m sure they are just opportunists.
It’s a Darwin Award in the making.
I’ve had several students who told me they went to Afghanistan for “missionary” work. It seems to be a popular thing to do among young Korean Protestants. I always wonder how they can spread the gospel without any language skills.
I always wonder how they can spread the gospel in a country where apostasy is a capital offense.
I don’t think these kids realize the danger involved. The organizations that send them to places like Afghanistan should be ashamed.
So many missionaries, so few kidnappers.
I find it hard to pity such people when they get into situations such as this.
For one thing, it is illegal in many Central Asian countries to enter as a missionary. That’s why most of them lie on their visa applications about the purpose of their travels.
I ran into many missionaries (mostly from the US, Canada and the UK but also some English speaking Koreans at the Almaty airport) while I was living in Central Asia. Judging by the fact that the majority of locals didn’t want them there in the first place, I can’t say I am sympathetic when I read about kidnappings and such.
globalvillageidiot, they’re in their 20s to 50s according to YTN, not kids. Just idiots.
“globalvillageidiot, they’re in their 20s to 50s according to YTN, not kids. Just idiots.”
Yeah, I guess was thinking of a lot of my students who tell me they’re going to do missionary work over the summer or winter vacation. They seldom have a clue about where they are going or what they may be getting themselves into. Idiots, yes, but the organizations that send them to these places are irresponsible.
Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation”. They are living their belief in a very real and profound way, despite the very obvious danger of doing so. Good for them. I haven’t such courage.
One of our former legal assistants was very active in these Afghanistan trips in 2006. I sincerely hope she’s not one of the people in danger.
Global, I know a Korean guy who learned Hebrew and went with his church group to Israel to evangelize (I guess, he said they were going to “march around Jerusalem” whatever that means).
You’re right the organizations are irresponsible but their eggs are seriously scrambled.
Here’s the list of names, ages, and sexes of the group sent by Bundang Saemmul Church:
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=104
Mostly folk in their 20s and 30s.
Robert, I re-read that 2004 posting. All I can say is… exactly.
It’s likely the Korean gov will pay the ransom/bribe and they will be released. It seems Korean hostages almost always get released. However, one wonders how willing the Taliban will be to take the money.
oh what would Richard Dawkins say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....s#Religion
Jesus Fucking Mary and Mother of Christ. Suicide bombers and those that carried out the 9/11 attacks were also “living their belief in a very real and profound way despite the very obvious danger of doing so.” In a shocking coincidence, they also do what they do because they think some dead shithead from a few thousand years ago told them to. Or because some living shithead said that they had some exclusive insight into what some dead shithead said, so you better fucking listen to him and his commands.
Risking life and limb to spread the word about a magic benevolent dictator in the sky isn’t courageous. It’s fucking stupid. The basic manipulation, brainwashing, and grand after-life promises — be they family reunions in heaven or 70 virgins from Allah — are very simple tools of control, which only work on very simple people. And by simple I mean fucking spectacularly stupid.
Sometimes Brendon, I wonder if you’re outsourcing all your posts on war and religion to some crazed fundamentalist nutball that lives in the basement of your apartment complex. Because on subjects other than those you’re pretty goddamn reasonable and insightful.
Don’t you recognize any difference between what these “fucking spectacularly stupid” Christians are doing when they try to spread their message of love and salvation, and flying a plane into a building? At worst, even if it’s all bunk, Christian missionaries are annoying timewasters. There are very few Christian terrorists. Even dumbo Fred Phelps (”God Hates Fags”) is just a nuisance.
I just don’t understand all the venom directed at Christians.
I was comparing the motivation behind the action, the process that brings them to take action, and the belief systems of both religions which support blind faith, obedience to imaginary beings, and rewards/punishment in some bullshit afterlife for following orders. The actions themselves that result from all the above are quite obviously in completely different universes. I would never equivocate killing with prosletyzing, and if you re-read my post above, you won’t find me doing so. I said that suicide bombers do what they do for the same reasons that Korean Christians do what they do. That’s not the same as saying that what they do is equivalent, and you’re smart enough to know the difference.
I will however, equivocate the mentality and belief systems behind each, because they’re based on the same psychological manipulation and fantasy fair tales. The end results may be different, but the means by which those doing the manipulating get their results are basically the same.
So the reason for my venom directed at Christians is because they support the legitimization of behavior manipulation through religion, and help to spread it worldwide. And in the wrong hands, that behavior manipulation by religious means can drive people to murder thousands, and in the near future, possibly millions. Not to mention what the human toll has already been throughout history.
Muslim suicide bombers driven by visions of 70 virgins are ignorant, murderous fools. Christians preaching their “love and salvation” in Afghanistan are just ignorant fools. Hopefully I’ve made that difference clear enough. Perhaps you may also consider the reality that by supporting the process of producing ignorant fools who are merely annoying in their behavior and who draw their inspiration from divine sources, you also make it much, much easier for those with far more sinister motivations to recruit and produce murderous, ignorant fools whose behavior does not simply annoy, but that destroys human life on a large scale while drawing inspiration from their own divine source.
Such is the danger of claiming righteousness from divine sources.
Christian missionaries held by the Taliban. I can’t think of a more dire and hopeless situation.
“Christian missionaries in Muslim war zones” …
Regardless of the nature or cause of the conflict in a Muslim war zone, I would imagine that a Muslim would perceive Christian Missionaries as (yet) another invasion force.
Being ignorant of this ought to get them (the Missionaries) crucified or something else tasty we can download from the net.
I suppose it’s impressive that some of the Christian missionaries have the cojones to ply their trade in a war zone, considering that very damn few are willing to work out in the antiwar zone.
Are they stupid or crazy, that’s the question. What’s kinda funny is, I hear more news about South Korean christians going to war torn muslim countries than South Korean christians sneaking into North Korea. That tells me that where they are aware of the dangerous reality of North Korea, they have no flippin’ clue about the middle east.
The Taliban doesn’t have to lob any head off to win a political victory. All they have to do is talk about how these annoying “Crusaders” brought bombs and bibles to their countries.
I would have real respect for them, if they do their thing above the 38th parallel. That takes real courage. Afghanistan? I really think, it’s a case for ignorance and stupidity.
I think that every Korean Christian heading to Muslim countries has been perfectly aware of the potential cost ever since Kim Sun-il was beheaded in Iraq three years ago.
These Christians go to do volunteer work in health and charity services as well as to witness to their faith, which is by and large a peaceful one.
When they speak to Muslims about their faith, they speak of a God who loved the world enough to take human flesh and die for humanity, and they see as their mission to live a Christlike life, which for them means living — and possibly dying — in the service of others.
They don’t force anyone to become a Christian — and in fact believe that belief cannot be forced.
They are among the last individuals whom I would look down upon.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Robert, if you come across the names of the three associated with the 아시아협력기구 rather than the church would you post those please?
I’d be happy to, Joel.
They could have at least read about the history of Afghanistan and seen that mightier forces than themselves (at least down here on Earth) have been run out of that country, dead or alive. Still, one has to wonder what their effect would be if there existed a free market in faith in those countries.
The ball is in Chungwadae’s court.
“Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation””
Don’t matter. Evangelical Christians should stay out of war-torn countries unless their main goal is to offer humanitarian aid. Anything else is crass.
Joel — no word on the names of the three, but they’re female, apparently:
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....#038;seq=1
샘물교회는 매년 여름 단기선교팀을 해외 각 지역에 파송해 왔다. 아프가니스탄에도 매년 파견해 왔으며 이번 선교팀은 ‘한민족 복지재단’의 초청을 받고 13일 인천공항을 통해 출국했다. 이들은 현지에 도착한 뒤 국내 대표적 선교단체인 ‘인터콥’의 주선으로 현지 여성 선교사 3명과 합류했다.
Well… 1,500 years ago a group of crazy missionaries went out to evangelize to a bunch of rough, uncivilized goths, celtics, britons, slavs and other dangerous human elements and their persistance in that less then ideal situation helped changed history.
Perhaps that is their inspiration (in addition to Matt 28:19-20)?
#30
All changes are not necessarily for the better.
Really?
I bet you $10 that had these crazy christians not converted these scabrous barbarians north of the decaying Roman Empire then all of Europe would be praying east to Mecca five times a day and that the Muslims in Paris would have less of a reason (or an excuse) to riot…
I’ll take that bet.
…so where’s your time machine?
Sure, Christianity did have a bit of a unifying influence on Europe of the Middle Ages (where it came to fighting against the outsider/infidel Muslims), but even so, that’s not necessarily a good thing.
They won’t kill Koreans. It’s too risky. Could turn all of East Asia against them. I’d call their bluff.
ah … WangKon936 are you implying that there is something wrong with being Muslim?
and that Muslims in Paris snide is a bit of fear-mongering of “otherness” is it not?
if some people, Christian Missionaries for example, are bent on charity and humanitarian work in war zones, then they ought to join an autonomous organization to do that work so their contribution can be made without religious rhetoric (or overtones).
that would be common sense.
Christian Missionaries in any country or conflict are there to spread the word help. like most other governments and organizations, they pray on use the desperation of the people involved to convert sway them into a different belief system than the one which is homegrown.
hey! no strikeouts??????
should have been:
Christian Missionaries in any country or conflict are there to
spread the wordhelp. like most other governments and organizations, theypray onuse the desperation of the people involved to convert sway them into a different belief system than the one which is homegrown.First of all, according to Robert’s initial report, the Korean Christians who were kidnapped were not there to proselytize (at least not ostensibly), but to volunteer work.
Careb: In Korea, it was Koreans themselves in the 18th century who chose to adopt “a different belief system than the one which is homegrown,” when some Yangban scholars first established a homegrown variety of Catholicism, based on texts one of their number brought back from the Jesuits in China.
In fact, the spread of Christianity from the very first non-Jewish converts (Roman citizens, Ethiopian eunuchs) onward was a matter of adopting a faith system not one’s own. Not that it matters, since Christianity at its very heart transcends national and ethnic distinctions. (Or should, in cases where it does not.) From a Christian’s point of view, it is God’s outworking of grace in the world, beyond the national religion through which he first revealed himself to the Jews.
Regarding conversions, for anyone who labours under the misapprehension that missionaries coerce or seduce people into converting, I sure hope and pray that’s not the case. It has no Biblical warrant, and you can definitely be sure it’s not the case in a predominantly religious Muslim country.
As for the theological concepts behind conversion, there are two dominant theological systems in evangelical Protesantism today, and both leave it up to the individual to convert or not convert. In one system, people convert to Christianity out of free will—either they choose Christ, or they don’t choose Christ. In the other system, they convert to Christianity because God guided them to take that step—not other men or women, who merely preach the gospel, but God, who then moves their hearts to receive the gospel they hear. The reality of what the Catholics got up to in Spain 500 years ago forcing all manner of non-Christians to convert is no longer the reality today.
For other criticisms and objections that others have raised on this thread, a few commenters have already addressed them.
#33,
Per the movie Idiosyncrasy, the admission fee to the “Tyme Macheene” is over $10, so given there is no net gain, I wouldn’t take that bet.
#35,
Me? Imply there is something wrong w/Muslims? Never!…
Caveats to my last comment: Sadly, the Gospel has been quite often mispreached, mistaught, and misapplied in the course of history. Undoubtedly, the mistrust that has been expressed by various commenters here has been based on personal observation, and is not entirely without merit. Nevertheless, some misimpressions needed to be cleared up.
34. I don’t think you know much about the Taliban or Afghanistan, hoidylovesnewts. Most Afghans have NO IDEA what is outside of Afghanistan. They do not care what East Asia thinks of them. They usually care only for their village, clan,…etc.
Maybe they’re afraid of offending the worlds heroin users….but then forty minutes after being offended, the users will begin to shake and quickly forgive the Taliban and buy more heroin.
The fact is, if you send a group of mostly women to a region of the world that does not particularly appreciate their abilities, you are MOST CERTAINLY asking for trouble.
also, to all of you who talk about these people having ‘courage’ and ‘balls’ to do what they’re doing. I agree.
For example, you gotta have WICKED BIG BALLS to go to an African country to help them by teaching, among other things, that god hates condoms and they should not be used. That is so helpful and god loves you for doing so. GOD BLESS YOUR efforts to increase the number of HIV/AIDS patients in Africa
I’m not at all convinced that stupid people should breed, so sending stupid people into dangerous areas to be slaughtered is not, in my humble opinion, necessarily a bad thing.
#32. Yes, really. How can replacing one god by another be an improvement if they are both figments of our imagination? By the way, you seem to forget about the Incquisition, the Crussades, the massacre of the Templars, Gnostics, Huguenots, etc.
#32,
Not going to be baited into a flame war other then say that Christianity and the principles of natural law were compatible and allowed to coexist.
One god tolerated secularism and the other far less so.
The ‘islam wants to kill christians’ thing is a bit tired. They don’t actually, and travel writer Rory Stewart proves it.
It should be noted that the Taliban, predominantly pashtun, waged a much more damaging and violent war against ethnic groups like the Hazara, also muslim.
Muslims kills more of their own religion, for the sake of their branch of it, than they do Christians, Jews, and other. The Taliban isnt as much an islamic group as much as they are a nationalistic, patriot, and power hungry pashtun nation looking to invade and subvert the lands and people of its neighboring nations. Afghanistan is like a world of its own. The borders of the ‘nations’ within Afghanistan stretch beyond the borders we see on a map. That’s why Pakistan has so much trouble in the NWFP.
Those people entered Afghanistan under an idea of pure idealism and naivety. In reality, they became a problem in a region that has enough unresolved problems already.
I hope they come back relatively unharmed. I do wonder though, if they do come back safely, who will they thank? Korea, or God? Sadly, I happen to think they’ll think God was paying attention to them on that day.
#42. I personally feel that since humans tend to be unable to control their dicks, and many are somehow unable to be faithful to their partners, tragically, society must oblige to this uncontrollable, beast like desire of people and give them condoms.
Uncle Sam can’t stop Bill from cheating on his wife and sleeping with yours, so Uncle Sam allows Bill to get a condom whenever he wants one. But, does Bill want a condom, or does he consider it a reduction in his beast like experience?
However, only Europe uses condoms with any sort of regularity. This is partly because in Europe, elementary school kids are indoctrinated to use condoms.
United States and the 3rd World, they don’t use condoms. Men from 3rd World countries think condoms are nuts. You can look that one up, because the truth is that they don’t even use condoms even if given.
How hard is it to fuck one girl without protection and not fuck any other?
Apparently, more than 3/4 of the world can’t.
They either need a caravan of wives, sleep around, or in Europe, sleep around with a condom.
Is that normal and natural?
You tell me.
How come men and women get so fired up with anger when they found their partners were sleeping around on them?
Thank you Sewing and Brendon for your gracious responses. The great thing about the gospel is how it can “inextricably” (though we like to say through grace) change a person once full of poison, bitterness, and ultimately pride into a pillar of charity and meekness. It was Nebuchadnezzar, once king of the greatest empire of his day, who after his bout with lunacy brought on by his boastful statement of how much he had accomplished in his kingdom who would recant his pride saying “Now I praise and extol the King of Heaven all whose works are truth and His ways judgment and those that walk in pride He is able to abase.”
A young “wacko” missionary named Jim Elliot once said “he is no fool he gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Ironically, he also wrote in his diary “Am I ignitable? God deliver me from the dread asbestos of ‘other things.’ Saturate me with the oil of the Spirit that I may be aflame. But flame is transient, often short-lived. Canst thou bear this my soul—short life?” Jim Elliot was a quaker. He went to the Auca Indians in the Amazon with 4 Plymouth brethren companions. In 1955, two days after making contact deep in the Jungle, all 5 men were killed by the Auca. Jim was 28. The wives of those men followed shortly after and through grace helped the conversion of that entire tribe of Indians. I pray that one day some of the temporal-mindedness reflected by any posters would also find grace and what cannot be lost.
“I don’t think you know much about the Taliban or Afghanistan, hoidylovesnewts. Most Afghans have NO IDEA what is outside of Afghanistan. They do not care what East Asia thinks of them. They usually care only for their village, clan,…etc.”
The Taliban spokesperson has asked for South Korea to withdraw its troops. The Taliban spokesperson is creating a political relationship between the nationality of the people kidnapped and the nationality of foreign soldiers stationed in Afghanistan. It doesn’t matter what YOU believe MOST Afghans think.
“The fact is, if you send a group of mostly women to a region of the world that does not particularly appreciate their abilities, you are MOST CERTAINLY asking for trouble.”
Did those women enter Afghanistan illegally? What did they do wrong? Don’t let these fucks push you around.
“I always wonder how they can spread the gospel without any language skills.”
…or, even with language skills. Who would listen to that crap?
This affair has all the makings of a repeat fiasco of what happened with Japanese peace workers at the beginning of the current Iraqi war who got themselves kidnapped.
It took a lot of pain and effort on the Japanese and probably the American governments’ parts to get them released. When they finally got back to Tokyo, they were given the kind of frostbite cold reception from both the Japanese government and society — in a way only the Japanese can dish out in exceptional circumstances.
It will be interesting to see how these Koreans come out in the long run — and I will be watching how they will be regarded by the Korean public as they arrive at Incheon.
In the meantime, I think the ROK Government should start preparing to grill this church after this episode passes. The Afghan government has been asking for cooperation from S Korea to keep its citizens out of harm’s way.
The fact is that some people ignore or get around government’s restrictions on travel to war zones to fulfill their own agenda — and then end up having to rely upon the same governments that they have ignored to get their asses out of a pinch.
In my book, at a minimum, they deserve to be publicly censured. And perhaps their church should be assessed the costs of getting them rescued. Religion is not an alibi for being irresponsible.
Apparently only one nurse (and no doctors, not a single one) was among the group, which suggests to me that the pretext of volunteer work was just that — a pretext.
And one reason there’s so much flack coming evangelical Christians’ way is that they’re obnoxious people. They’re especially obnoxious in Korea, in my experience. The most annoying, self-righteous people I’ve met in Korea, aside from some foreigners, were evangelical Christians.
It’s a very selective living out of their faith, Brendon; the Bible has thousands of injunctions against poverty, against allowing poverty to fester, yet in Korea (as elsewhere), Protestant Christianity is big business.
The sending of missionaries to Afghanistan, of all places, is a kind of pursuit of glory. Sure, it must be exciting to preach to people to whom such preaching is illegal, in a faraway, romantically war-torn, dangerous country. It’s also a great feather in the cap of a local church, and something for everyone to feel proud about for a little while. Until, of course, your kids are taken hostage, and you realize that they’re making no inroads to begin with. Nobody can on brief holiday-long trips to foreign lands, after all.
Truly committed Christians would, and do, work with those nearest them, sacrificing their time and energy working tirelessly to help orphans, widows, the handicapped, the sick and dying who are all around them in their home country, where they can do this kind of thing for years and years.
But of course, what glory is there in that? I think we can tell by the number of evangelicals living in among lepers, or volunteering in a place like 꽃동네. (Which calls itself “Christian” but is in fact specifically Catholic. When’s the last time you saw a Christian evangelical-run village set up for the handicapped in Korea?)
As for the response of Koreans online, it seems to be overwhelmingly negative. People are tired of having one international crisis or embarrassment or another caused by the ill-considered adventures of a few radical fanatics.
First, I thought that the Taliban group who did this is a bit… stupid. The SK troops (all non-combatants) were going to be withdrawn by the end of this year anyway… why make things more complicated?
I agree completely with TomCoyner. Unrealistic and poorly planned mission is considered irresponsible even by most Christians. And though I’m a devoted Christian, I think it is completely against what Christianity stands for when missionaries go to impoverished/war-torn areas without humanitarian aid as the primary priority. A South Park episode puts it perfectly when a missionary in Africa, after being asked desperately for anything to eat, hands out a Bible instead.
The church leader(s), as well as people who have organized this mission, need to be thoroughly investigated and possibly prosecuted for their mind-numbingly irresponsible actions.
It’s not that missions to Islamic countries are impossible (albeit quite hard), but countries where war is still raging, missionaries need to stay away.
Well, it looks like it’s about to be over: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19862713/
Hopefully this will be over very soon.
The Koreans I ask are scornful of these Korean churches that are arrogant and ignorant to the point of believing that they must send people out to get people to believe what they believe.
It would be better if Korean churches spent more effort administering to the needs of Koreans here rather than spreading throughout the far places of the earth like the plague.
Iheartblueballs: Going on a mission trip to provide medical services is nothing like flying airplanes into a building.
Tom Coyner: What one man calls irresponsible, another man calls brave.
But I’m surprised at your remarks in this fourm. I mean, you have a habit of heralding the sacrifices that American soldiers made during the Korean War. How can you not see the parallels between the risks these missionaries are taking and the risks taken by brave American GIs in the fifties?
Some people actually believe in something higher than themselves.
You have the right to make excuses for your aversion to risk, but have the decency not to belittle those who take risks for what they believe in.
Michael: From a coward’s point of view, a missionary’s eggs would appear to be scrambled.
BumfromKorea: You’re speculating. You do not not know how well or poorly planned the trip was.
But your second argument reveals a deplorable lack of critical thinking. A war torn country is precisely the type of place where missionaries are needed the most. People whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. People who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Oh yeah, and your South Park analogy is way off base because the missionaries in question also offered medical services. Did you read the article?
Gordsellar: You’re a bit of hypocrite. In earlier posts you criticize Koreans for being too nationalistic–for being too concerned with Korean problems and not caring about other countries. Now, all of a sudden you change tacks and criticize these Korean missionaries for NOT focusing on problems at home, claiming that they should have been focused on easing domestic suffering.
But hypocrisy aside, your arguments still lack merit; you assume too much. You assume that this group of nurses did not cooperate with doctors who were already stationed in Afghanistan. Keep in mind that over 900 missionaries have gone to Afghanistan from Korea and that the troops stationed in Korea are in the medical corps. It’s highly probabale that they worked with doctors who were already in Afghanistan.
There are a number of other errors in your reasoning. I’ll bulletpoint them:
1. You mistakenly assume that the church in question was not helping to ease suffering in Korea at the same time that it sent missionaries to Afghanistan. Take a look at their church’s website and you’ll see that their church has been helping people in Korea for quite awhile.
2. You imply that doing the mission for personal glory somehow detracts from the honor in their mission; it doesn’t. As long as the word of God is spread and people’s lives are saved, their mission is honorable. In other words a person can still give glory to God and receive personal benefits.
3. Afganistan has a lower number of Christians than does Korea. So it makes sense for missionaries to go to Afghanistan.
4. Your argument is naive. It is not necessary for Korea to become a utopia before Koreans go out and help others. One does not need to be Bill Gates to help people in poverty. One does not need to be Albert Einstein to help someone with physics. Perfection does not preclude good-will. If everyone in the world thought as you did, nothing would get done.
Perhaps because the brave American GIs in the 50s risked their lives to save South Koreans from being absorbed by one of the most odious regimes of the 20th century, while the missionaries in Afghanistan are risking their lives (and putting the Korean and Afghan governments in a tight spot) to tell locals that their metaphysics are wrong?
Oh my Goodness. This time, I am in complete agreement with the notorious jackass YoungRocco2. Wow, Jesus really does bring people closer together!
While I agree with gordsellar’s observation about the obnoxious pushiness of Korean Christian evangelists, as I’ve come to understand Koreans’ nearly absolute lack of what we Westerners would call “social graces”, I’ve become more tolerant of the evangelists’ pushiness as well. At least they think what they’re pushing is good for me.
Their metaphysics? You just slammed Christians and Muslims both in one fell swoop. All for the sake of…what?
and, I’d like to offer a difference between GIs fighting in a war and missionaries risking their lives for what they believe. One has in the back of his mind the safety of his comrades and foremost his family, for this life only. The other places himself in danger with no previous threat to himself or any other totally for the sake of what they see as another person’s eternal security. The epitome of unselfishness.
Youngrocco2
The missionaries were traveling in southern Afghanistan, where most of the fightings are taking place. The place is also notorious for kidnappers who kidnaps civilians for wartime gains (several German civilians were also kidnapped there recently for the very same reason they are kidnapped for). Since these people were traveling in that area without any security, without any emergency plans, or without any personal protection measures. Sounds pretty unprepared and immaturely planned to me.
Are you telling me people who are hurt and starving cares more about religious salvation rather than, say, immediate life sustainment?
Salvation Army has a very good grasp of this concept; they don’t even try to convert people they help until they have been helped sufficiently. This is also true of other “community shelter” places around where I live (and where I volunteer at); they offer voluntary services on Sundays, but that’s it.
Also, Youngrocco2, I think it is you who needs to read the articles (notice the plural). The group only had one certified nurse - the rest were college kids and homemakers. “providing medical services” might be a big exaggeration.
The YTN ticker just reported a German was killed.
Well, the deadline has passed, hopefully nothing has happened to the people.
As an agnostic who was raised Catholic and the Protestant I have read the Bible from cover to cover and understand the tenets of christianity well. Parts of it make up our Western judeo-christian culture and are compatible with secular ethics, and the rest is a leap of faith.
To Youngrocco, Mr. Carr and the others who made the leap, while I don’t find christianity in any way relevant in my life I respect your beliefs if they don’t harm you or others. However, the Koreans in Afghanistan have put themselves in harm’s way and it effects this country’s noncombat mission and could destroy their families with grief. And for what? Christianity isn’t attractive when it’s prostyletized in such an ignorant manner.
Even though I’m agnostic and disagree with Christopher Hitchens on many things his book “God is Not Great” is a brilliant argument against religion. Read it if you dare. Here’s an excerpt:
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/
Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation”. They are living their belief in a very real and profound way, despite the very obvious danger of doing so. Good for them. I haven’t such courage.
And you struck me as such a reasonable person. The problem here - a problem you share with your missionary zealot friends - is a fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems. Religious bigotry is one word for it. I just hope they get out ok and don’t go back.
For the record, I am not a “Christian”. I belong to no church and am not a “missionary” — except maybe for libertarianism. Too many differences between what I can observe and what’s demanded of me to believe. How about that?
Perhaps due to my “fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems”, I don’t engage in knee-jerk denunciations of Christians. That’s because “religious bigotry” is precisely the right term to describe that stupid behavior. That’s a belief system I can’t respect.
I have read, and read from time to time, the Bible. So what if I know what’s in the Bible? Everyone should. Whether you believe it to be literal Truth, it’s the single most important book in Western history. Believe it or not, answers to many of life’s questions can indeed be found in that book — it’s a record that connects us in a very real way to the origins of our civilization.
Mr. Carr, slam dunk.
It is quite noble on an individual level what they are trying to do. I agree with many however, that much of the impetus is from heads of churches interested in self-aggrandizement.
There is a much bigger problem with it and it is a misunderstanding of the scope of these naive young believers. They don’t know what they are getting into and even though they don’t care if they die people are going to risk their lives to help them. Some already have. As if the people over there don’t have their hands full as it is. All they are doing is taking time away from people who were doing good work and had a much better way of implementing it.
The average age of the 20 kidnapped missionaries is 34. Is 34 too young to make such choices?
This is a favorite trope of the know-it-all left: Those poor, misguided children! If only someone who knew better could have protected them — someone smart like Planned Parenthood, Amnesty International, PBS, the Parents’ Music Resource Center, PETA, or… or… me!
They do it to the military too. It’s why (okay, one of the reasons why) Cindy Sheehan makes me sick.
Perhaps due to my “fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems”, I don’t engage in knee-jerk denunciations of Christians.
Who said anything about denunciating Christians? Go back and read what I wrote carefully. I respect the right of Christians to believe in what they want. And I expect them to let others believe in what they want as well. The goal of missionaries in Afganistan - and I have no doubt the Koreans involved in this farce are a part of that - is to convert Muslims into Christians. To fix them of their false belief.
Religious bigotry means a stubborn and complete intolerance of any religious creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. You clearly believe in the idea - since you’ve quoted it from the bible - of making disciples of every nation in the world. And you also suggest that if you had the courage you’d do it too.
In other words, you think it quite a dapper idea to change someone else’s belief system into a model of your own. That Brenden, is religious bigotry.
I have read, and read from time to time, the Bible. So what if I know what’s in the Bible? Everyone should.
No, everyone shouldn’t. That’s an opinion that you’re projecting.
Whether you believe it to be literal Truth, it’s the single most important book in Western history. Believe it or not, answers to many of life’s questions can indeed be found in that book — it’s a record that connects us in a very real way to the origins of our civilization.
Exactly what “origins” are we talking about Brenden? If we’re talking about divine origins, I’d just as soon read the Torah, the teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, the Dhammapada and the Holy Quran. Or none of them at all.
If we’re talking history (literal Truth as you put it), I’d steer well clear of the aformentioned titles and read Thucydides, the first author to place emphasis on fact and objectivity.
Cindy Sheehan isn’t over there. I don’t believe any of the groups you mentioned are very well represented there in the flesh. There are people who live there and work there who have and will interrupt their lives to try to keep these people out of trouble.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe these people are expert at entering war torn countries illegally getting through some of the most dangerous regions in the world unscathed. Tell you what, we’ll leave them alone and see the impact they have.
Whoops! Too late.
Just a guess here, but in your case, is the answer “none of them at all”?
Say, who was it that wrote “But, the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it”? Let us know. We’re curious. I haven’t been into Thucydides since high school but I’m fairly sure it was him.
And yet, you look down on these brave Christians.
And Marmot, you beat me to it:
Rocco: How can you not see the parallels between the risks these missionaries are taking and the risks taken by brave American GIs in the fifties?
Where do you begin with that whopper? Awe-inspiring.
And: People whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. People who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Which god, Rocco? Stop projecting your beliefs like they’re some sort of immutable universal law. Let me help you. What you should have written was:
I think some people whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. I think some people who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Get it?
Just a guess here, but in your case, is the answer “none of them at all”?
Bingo.
Don’t be so proud of being ignorant. How can you deny and denounce something about which you admittedly know nothing?
Oh, you’re right. Boy am I red-faced. I should have said, “older people who should know better who have become a monumental burden on those living and working there”.
What is wrong with trying to do some good above the thirty-eighth parallel? If they put anyone at risk it would be people already up to their eyeballs in risk. I’ll tell you why. They’d have to toil in anonymity. It lacks that element of world focus. Without the renown and jack these church leaders won’t give their troops the marching orders.
Thucydides. And I don’t look down on the Christians, as I’ve stressed. I object to them looking down on other people’s beliefs.
Unfortunately I couldn’t find a quote about tolerance in the Bible - maybe you could help me on that one? - but in the meantime, here’s one taken from a Native American Indian mantra.
All the races and tribes in the world are like the different colored flowers of one meadow. All are beautiful. As children of the Creator they must all be respected.
Perhaps you couldn’t find it because you won’t open the Book. Let me help you, brother: Check out Matthew 7:1-5 and Romans 2:1-11. Basically, these relate Jesus and the apostle Paul’s injunctions not to judge others, lest we be judged ourselves. Christian or not, good advice.
Don’t be so proud of being ignorant. How can you deny and denounce something about which you admittedly know nothing?
I’m not proud and I’m not ignorant. I’ve read some of it, how could I not? And again, i’ll get around to reading it all when I get around to reading all the other religious texts.
From what I understand, the bible is a man-made collection of works voted to be the word of god by some men in the 4th century. It first started being put together at the council of Nicea (?) and finished at another council at a later date. The emporer Constantine actually paid church leaders to agree upon the final product.
Now why do I have to be ignorant not to have read it from cover to cover? It is a book, made by men, for the consumption of men. From a purely literary point of view I find it impressive. Otherwise, I’m not interested.
In my opinion there is nothing in that book, no teaching, no sacred word, that do a better job of making me a good person than the humble advice of my parents.
God died, and his moshpit crowd didn’t want the party to end and they brought him back again from some pet semetary and that is why he smells.
I see few correlations between what Jesus preached and what passes for a church today. Haven’t we learned that governments are insidious enough to pose as our holy wishes?
There is a part of the human mind that wants to be a part of something amazing. A peninsular analog would be the way our northern neighbours attribute everything from space ships to free air to their leader. It’s just more pronounced there.
It’s a moshpit here and it’s a moshpit there and when people go recruiting headbangers from other parties it is bound it end well. I mean not well.
“The argument with faith is the foundation and origin of all arguments, because it is the beginning—but not the end—of all arguments about philosophy, science, history, and human nature. It is also the beginning—but by no means the end—of all disputes about the good life and the just city. Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it. I would be quite content to go to their children’s bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to “respect” their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations. And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing.”
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/
The Korean government shouldn’t negotiate with them, but it looks like that’s what they’re going to do. As unfortunate as they are, those missionaries took a chance, it was their choice. It was their choice to ignore the warnings and dangers, putting the allied governments in a very difficult spot. Let this be a hard lesson to those Koreans who still foolishly wander around no-go zones, that their government is not going to bail them out if they get into trouble.
ROK government should cancel the planned withdraw in December, instead send in more troops. Send in combat troops instead.
Here’s an article with a photo of the group:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/afg.....KpJl4DW7oF
It looks like the men grew beards to fit in with the locals.