Yonhap (Korean) reports that an unknown number of Koreans have been abducted off a bus in Ghazni province, Afghanistan.
Two Germans and six Afghans were abducted yesterday.
A later Yonhap report quotes a Korean government source as saying about 20 Koreans, apparently young folk doing — you guessed it — missionary work in Afghanistan were kidnapped.
UPDATE: The Foreign Ministry is still trying to get a handle on the situation. A source told Yonhap News that 23 Koreans were kidnapped, and that they belong to a Korean Christian group, although the Foreign Ministry is still waiting for more information to confirm.
The abductees were riding a bus from Kandahar to Kabul when they were taken by armed assailants.
Yonhap said there are reportedly some 120 Korean missionaries residing long-term in Afghanistan (a country where even the current government came close to sentencing a man to death for apostasy), although some go back and forth from Korea.
You all know how I feel about Christian missionaries in Muslim war zones — if not, here’s my 2004 rant on the subject (warning: very angry).
The Foreign Ministry plans to advise Koreans to leave the country for their safety.
Lest it be forgotten, Korea has 210 troops in Afghanistan — 60 medics and 150 engineers, one of whom was killed in a suicide bombing attack on Bagram Air Base in February.
UPDATE 2: The Taliban claim they are holding 18 Koreans — 15 men and three women:
“They are safe with us, we are investigating them and our demands and reaction will be announced later.” said Taliban spokesman Said Yousuf Ahmadi by telephone from an undisclosed location.
We can get an idea what those demands might be from this:
“The German citizens are safe with us. Our demand is the withdrawal of German troops from Afghanistan and also the release of our prisoners,” said Taliban spokesman Yousuf Ahmadi.
UPDATE 3: The WaPo reports the male female ratio is 15 women and three men. All I know is the list of names (reported in the Chosun Ilbo) of the Bundang Saemmul Church group sent to Afghanistan includes 13 women and seven men.
It also appears they weren’t engaging in missionary work per se, but rather performing volunteer work at a hospital and kindergarten in Kandahar (which I can respect putting your life on line to do, although that sort of stuff — at least in war zones — is best left to trained personnel, which I can only hope these folk were).
UPDATE 4: The Foreign Ministry has officially confirmed — finally — that “about 20″ Koreans were kidnapped. The Foreign Ministry is assembling a team led by a vice foreign minister to handle the crisis, and the government said it would do everything to bring the captives back home safely and as soon as possible.
The abductees are believed to be the 20 members of the church group and several members of an NGO working in Afghanistan. The NGO members were acting as guides for the church group.
According to the Hanguk Gyeongje (Korean), there are about 200 Koreans in Afghanistan (not including troops), the majority of whom are Christians doing volunteer work in the country. The NGO that arranged for the Bundang church group to come is the Institute of Asian Culture and Development (IACD), which specializes in development projects in Central Asia (including Mongolia) and the Middle East, which sounds all nice and good until you realize that it’s associated with InterCP, a Christian group dedicated to spreading the faith to the “unreached tribes of Eurasia.” InterCP has sparked controversy before by putting its members in harm’s way with “Israel & Palestine Peace Marches” in 2004 and 2005 and last year’s attempted “Rejoice! Afghanistan” Afghan peace celebration, and is probably not an organization on the Taliban’s Ramadan card list.
To be fair, the IACD has previously denied being involved in missionary work.
UPDATE 5: The Taliban has made its demand — Taliban spokesman Yousuf Ahmadi told AP that Korean troops must be withdrawn from Afghanistan by noon Saturday or the 18 captives will be killed (via Yonhap Korean).
Granted, Korea has only 210 troops in the country, but is it even physically possible to withdraw all of them by noon tomorrow?
The Afghan Interior Minister, BTW, doesn’t appear particularly impressed by the church group’s decision-making:
“Twenty-three Korean citizens, 15 women and five men, were very carelessly traveling in a chartered bus from Kabul to Kandahar yesterday, on the way to Kandahar their bus was stopped by armed men… and they took them away,” said Interior Minister spokesman Zemari Bashari.
The National Post has more on the activities of Korean missionaries in Afghanistan:
Last year, the South Korean government tried to stop a group of 2,000 Korean Christians traveling to Afghanistan for a peace conference, fearing for their safety.
But 900 of them still came to Afghanistan, causing an uproar in the staunchly Muslim country, where many accused them of being evangelical missionaries, before they were all deported.
Afghanistan’s ambassador to South Korea was later sacked for issuing the group with visas, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.
Meanwhile, an elder from the Presbyterian church that sent the volunteers said that a media report that the volunteers wrote wills before they left has yet to be confirmed.
UPDATE 6: The Korean military is rather bewildered by all this, reports Yonhap. Korea’s medical and engineering units are supposed to be withdrawn from Afghanistan by the end of the year anyway. At any rate, the military reportedly wants to highlight the fact that Korean troops have never been involved in combat and are there to rebuild Afghanistan’s social overhead capital and provide medical services to Afghan citizens.
Like the Taliban will give a shit.
Korea’s engineering corps has completed some 330 construction projects in Afghanistan, including repair work on the runway at Bagram Airbase, construction of base defenses, and restoration and expansion of neighboring roads. They’ve even received a US Army award for construction of a 7-meter pole barn — the largest wooden structure in Afghanistan, apparently — in extreme weather conditions.
Korea’s medical and engineering corps have also received praise from allied military and local Afghans alike for their good-will activities, which include taekwondo lessons and Korean classes.
As opposed to the activities of Korean missionaries, which seem to be pissing everyone off.
Anyway, a Defense Ministry official said Korean troops have been involved mainly in peace and reconstruction missions and providing medical care to Afghan citizens, and that this mission would not change.
On a positive note, the Taliban — humanitarians that they are — told Deutsche Presse-Agentur that the noon deadline could be extended once authorities from the nations involved (i.e., Germany, Korea and Afghanistan) contacted them.
The Korean Embassy in Kabul, meanwhile, said they’ve yet to confirm any of the Taliban’s demands, but did say there is a rumor floating around the Ghazni provincial government — which is apparently trying to contact the group — that the Taliban is demanding the release of one of their operatives.
UPDATE 7: It looks like the German hostages were killed when Berlin refused to talk with the Taliban, reports Al Jazeera.
Yonhap, meanwhile, reports (quoting Al Jazeera) that thanks to Seoul’s active attitude, the Korean hostages are safe despite the deadline passing. Al Jazeera’s Kandahar correspondent said (and I’m quoting from Yonhap’s Korean version) that because the Korean government appears likely to accept the Taliban’s demands, the Korean hostages have been kept safe. This is news to me, because Seoul has been saying that there would be no change to the schedule of Korea’s troop withdrawal.
BTW, I’m not entirely pleased with AP’s headline, “S. Korea to Pull Troops From Afghanistan.” This makes it look like Seoul has caved in to the Taliban’s demands, which — as far as the public knows — it hasn’t.
Back to the Al Jazeera piece for a second — Afghan officials are none too pleased with the Korean volunteers:
Afghan officials expressed anger because the Koreans did not tell them about their visit nor organise security forces for protection during their travels.
The Ghazni governor was even more direct:
Mirajuddin Pattan, Ghazni governor, expressed anger at the presence in his part of the country of such a large number of foreign nationals.
Speaking to AFP news agency, Pattan said: “They must have thought they are in Korea, not in war-torn Afghanistan.
“They did not contact us, police or the security forces for protection while travelling in this region.”
I’m not sure if these folk knew where they were going.
UPDATE 8: The Taliban is now saying it would be willing to trade its 23 Korean hostages for 23 Taliban prisoners held in Afghan jails. Yonhap reports, however, that the Korean government has its work cut out for it trying to convince Kabul to go along with this.
Yonhap points out that there has been a case of such an exchange — in March, Italian reporter Daniele Mastrogiacomo, her interpreter and driver were released after two weeks in Taliban custody after Kabul freed three Taliban prisoners. Kabul was initially reluctant to go through with the trade, citing its principle not to negotiate with terrorists, but eventually agreed to free five Taliban prisoners after Italy apparently threatened to pull out its troops from the country.
The United States and Great Britain slammed the deal, saying it would encourage more terrorism. And wouldn’t you know it, in April, two French relief workers were kidnapped, with the Taliban demanding, among other things, the release of Taliban prisoners. So yes, the Afghan government — and the international community — is afraid of encouraging more kidnappings, and even President Karzai said the deal to free the Italian reporter was a “one-time deal.”
Just to add my own 2 cents, I get the feeling Seoul is going to be in for an especially tough time convincing Kabul to do anything for these hostages. First off, Afghan officials have been openly irate about the irresponsible behavior of the Koreans who were taken. Second, Italy had a much better hand to play with 2,000 troops, including combat troops. Korea only has 210 troops in the country, and those are scheduled to be withdrawn by the end of the year. Not a whole lot of cards to play, unless Seoul decides to try to go through Washington, which I doubt very strongly would be effective.
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I’m sure they are just opportunists.
It’s a Darwin Award in the making.
I’ve had several students who told me they went to Afghanistan for “missionary” work. It seems to be a popular thing to do among young Korean Protestants. I always wonder how they can spread the gospel without any language skills.
I always wonder how they can spread the gospel in a country where apostasy is a capital offense.
I don’t think these kids realize the danger involved. The organizations that send them to places like Afghanistan should be ashamed.
So many missionaries, so few kidnappers.
I find it hard to pity such people when they get into situations such as this.
For one thing, it is illegal in many Central Asian countries to enter as a missionary. That’s why most of them lie on their visa applications about the purpose of their travels.
I ran into many missionaries (mostly from the US, Canada and the UK but also some English speaking Koreans at the Almaty airport) while I was living in Central Asia. Judging by the fact that the majority of locals didn’t want them there in the first place, I can’t say I am sympathetic when I read about kidnappings and such.
globalvillageidiot, they’re in their 20s to 50s according to YTN, not kids. Just idiots.
“globalvillageidiot, they’re in their 20s to 50s according to YTN, not kids. Just idiots.”
Yeah, I guess was thinking of a lot of my students who tell me they’re going to do missionary work over the summer or winter vacation. They seldom have a clue about where they are going or what they may be getting themselves into. Idiots, yes, but the organizations that send them to these places are irresponsible.
Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation”. They are living their belief in a very real and profound way, despite the very obvious danger of doing so. Good for them. I haven’t such courage.
One of our former legal assistants was very active in these Afghanistan trips in 2006. I sincerely hope she’s not one of the people in danger.
Global, I know a Korean guy who learned Hebrew and went with his church group to Israel to evangelize (I guess, he said they were going to “march around Jerusalem” whatever that means).
You’re right the organizations are irresponsible but their eggs are seriously scrambled.
Here’s the list of names, ages, and sexes of the group sent by Bundang Saemmul Church:
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=104
Mostly folk in their 20s and 30s.
Robert, I re-read that 2004 posting. All I can say is… exactly.
It’s likely the Korean gov will pay the ransom/bribe and they will be released. It seems Korean hostages almost always get released. However, one wonders how willing the Taliban will be to take the money.
oh what would Richard Dawkins say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....s#Religion
Jesus Fucking Mary and Mother of Christ. Suicide bombers and those that carried out the 9/11 attacks were also “living their belief in a very real and profound way despite the very obvious danger of doing so.” In a shocking coincidence, they also do what they do because they think some dead shithead from a few thousand years ago told them to. Or because some living shithead said that they had some exclusive insight into what some dead shithead said, so you better fucking listen to him and his commands.
Risking life and limb to spread the word about a magic benevolent dictator in the sky isn’t courageous. It’s fucking stupid. The basic manipulation, brainwashing, and grand after-life promises — be they family reunions in heaven or 70 virgins from Allah — are very simple tools of control, which only work on very simple people. And by simple I mean fucking spectacularly stupid.
Sometimes Brendon, I wonder if you’re outsourcing all your posts on war and religion to some crazed fundamentalist nutball that lives in the basement of your apartment complex. Because on subjects other than those you’re pretty goddamn reasonable and insightful.
Don’t you recognize any difference between what these “fucking spectacularly stupid” Christians are doing when they try to spread their message of love and salvation, and flying a plane into a building? At worst, even if it’s all bunk, Christian missionaries are annoying timewasters. There are very few Christian terrorists. Even dumbo Fred Phelps (“God Hates Fags”) is just a nuisance.
I just don’t understand all the venom directed at Christians.
I was comparing the motivation behind the action, the process that brings them to take action, and the belief systems of both religions which support blind faith, obedience to imaginary beings, and rewards/punishment in some bullshit afterlife for following orders. The actions themselves that result from all the above are quite obviously in completely different universes. I would never equivocate killing with prosletyzing, and if you re-read my post above, you won’t find me doing so. I said that suicide bombers do what they do for the same reasons that Korean Christians do what they do. That’s not the same as saying that what they do is equivalent, and you’re smart enough to know the difference.
I will however, equivocate the mentality and belief systems behind each, because they’re based on the same psychological manipulation and fantasy fair tales. The end results may be different, but the means by which those doing the manipulating get their results are basically the same.
So the reason for my venom directed at Christians is because they support the legitimization of behavior manipulation through religion, and help to spread it worldwide. And in the wrong hands, that behavior manipulation by religious means can drive people to murder thousands, and in the near future, possibly millions. Not to mention what the human toll has already been throughout history.
Muslim suicide bombers driven by visions of 70 virgins are ignorant, murderous fools. Christians preaching their “love and salvation” in Afghanistan are just ignorant fools. Hopefully I’ve made that difference clear enough. Perhaps you may also consider the reality that by supporting the process of producing ignorant fools who are merely annoying in their behavior and who draw their inspiration from divine sources, you also make it much, much easier for those with far more sinister motivations to recruit and produce murderous, ignorant fools whose behavior does not simply annoy, but that destroys human life on a large scale while drawing inspiration from their own divine source.
Such is the danger of claiming righteousness from divine sources.
Christian missionaries held by the Taliban. I can’t think of a more dire and hopeless situation.
“Christian missionaries in Muslim war zones” …
Regardless of the nature or cause of the conflict in a Muslim war zone, I would imagine that a Muslim would perceive Christian Missionaries as (yet) another invasion force.
Being ignorant of this ought to get them (the Missionaries) crucified or something else tasty we can download from the net.
I suppose it’s impressive that some of the Christian missionaries have the cojones to ply their trade in a war zone, considering that very damn few are willing to work out in the antiwar zone.
Are they stupid or crazy, that’s the question. What’s kinda funny is, I hear more news about South Korean christians going to war torn muslim countries than South Korean christians sneaking into North Korea. That tells me that where they are aware of the dangerous reality of North Korea, they have no flippin’ clue about the middle east.
The Taliban doesn’t have to lob any head off to win a political victory. All they have to do is talk about how these annoying “Crusaders” brought bombs and bibles to their countries.
I would have real respect for them, if they do their thing above the 38th parallel. That takes real courage. Afghanistan? I really think, it’s a case for ignorance and stupidity.
I think that every Korean Christian heading to Muslim countries has been perfectly aware of the potential cost ever since Kim Sun-il was beheaded in Iraq three years ago.
These Christians go to do volunteer work in health and charity services as well as to witness to their faith, which is by and large a peaceful one.
When they speak to Muslims about their faith, they speak of a God who loved the world enough to take human flesh and die for humanity, and they see as their mission to live a Christlike life, which for them means living — and possibly dying — in the service of others.
They don’t force anyone to become a Christian — and in fact believe that belief cannot be forced.
They are among the last individuals whom I would look down upon.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Robert, if you come across the names of the three associated with the 아시아협력기구 rather than the church would you post those please?
I’d be happy to, Joel.
They could have at least read about the history of Afghanistan and seen that mightier forces than themselves (at least down here on Earth) have been run out of that country, dead or alive. Still, one has to wonder what their effect would be if there existed a free market in faith in those countries.
The ball is in Chungwadae’s court.
“Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation””
Don’t matter. Evangelical Christians should stay out of war-torn countries unless their main goal is to offer humanitarian aid. Anything else is crass.
Joel — no word on the names of the three, but they’re female, apparently:
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....#038;seq=1
샘물교회는 매년 여름 단기선교팀을 해외 각 지역에 파송해 왔다. 아프가니스탄에도 매년 파견해 왔으며 이번 선교팀은 ‘한민족 복지재단’의 초청을 받고 13일 인천공항을 통해 출국했다. 이들은 현지에 도착한 뒤 국내 대표적 선교단체인 ‘인터콥’의 주선으로 현지 여성 선교사 3명과 합류했다.
Well… 1,500 years ago a group of crazy missionaries went out to evangelize to a bunch of rough, uncivilized goths, celtics, britons, slavs and other dangerous human elements and their persistance in that less then ideal situation helped changed history.
Perhaps that is their inspiration (in addition to Matt 28:19-20)?
#30
All changes are not necessarily for the better.
Really?
I bet you $10 that had these crazy christians not converted these scabrous barbarians north of the decaying Roman Empire then all of Europe would be praying east to Mecca five times a day and that the Muslims in Paris would have less of a reason (or an excuse) to riot…
I’ll take that bet.
…so where’s your time machine?
Sure, Christianity did have a bit of a unifying influence on Europe of the Middle Ages (where it came to fighting against the outsider/infidel Muslims), but even so, that’s not necessarily a good thing.
They won’t kill Koreans. It’s too risky. Could turn all of East Asia against them. I’d call their bluff.
ah … WangKon936 are you implying that there is something wrong with being Muslim?
and that Muslims in Paris snide is a bit of fear-mongering of “otherness” is it not?
if some people, Christian Missionaries for example, are bent on charity and humanitarian work in war zones, then they ought to join an autonomous organization to do that work so their contribution can be made without religious rhetoric (or overtones).
that would be common sense.
Christian Missionaries in any country or conflict are there to spread the word help. like most other governments and organizations, they pray on use the desperation of the people involved to convert sway them into a different belief system than the one which is homegrown.
hey! no strikeouts??????
should have been:
Christian Missionaries in any country or conflict are there to
spread the wordhelp. like most other governments and organizations, theypray onuse the desperation of the people involved to convert sway them into a different belief system than the one which is homegrown.First of all, according to Robert’s initial report, the Korean Christians who were kidnapped were not there to proselytize (at least not ostensibly), but to volunteer work.
Careb: In Korea, it was Koreans themselves in the 18th century who chose to adopt “a different belief system than the one which is homegrown,” when some Yangban scholars first established a homegrown variety of Catholicism, based on texts one of their number brought back from the Jesuits in China.
In fact, the spread of Christianity from the very first non-Jewish converts (Roman citizens, Ethiopian eunuchs) onward was a matter of adopting a faith system not one’s own. Not that it matters, since Christianity at its very heart transcends national and ethnic distinctions. (Or should, in cases where it does not.) From a Christian’s point of view, it is God’s outworking of grace in the world, beyond the national religion through which he first revealed himself to the Jews.
Regarding conversions, for anyone who labours under the misapprehension that missionaries coerce or seduce people into converting, I sure hope and pray that’s not the case. It has no Biblical warrant, and you can definitely be sure it’s not the case in a predominantly religious Muslim country.
As for the theological concepts behind conversion, there are two dominant theological systems in evangelical Protesantism today, and both leave it up to the individual to convert or not convert. In one system, people convert to Christianity out of free will—either they choose Christ, or they don’t choose Christ. In the other system, they convert to Christianity because God guided them to take that step—not other men or women, who merely preach the gospel, but God, who then moves their hearts to receive the gospel they hear. The reality of what the Catholics got up to in Spain 500 years ago forcing all manner of non-Christians to convert is no longer the reality today.
For other criticisms and objections that others have raised on this thread, a few commenters have already addressed them.
#33,
Per the movie Idiosyncrasy, the admission fee to the “Tyme Macheene” is over $10, so given there is no net gain, I wouldn’t take that bet.
#35,
Me? Imply there is something wrong w/Muslims? Never!…
Caveats to my last comment: Sadly, the Gospel has been quite often mispreached, mistaught, and misapplied in the course of history. Undoubtedly, the mistrust that has been expressed by various commenters here has been based on personal observation, and is not entirely without merit. Nevertheless, some misimpressions needed to be cleared up.
34. I don’t think you know much about the Taliban or Afghanistan, hoidylovesnewts. Most Afghans have NO IDEA what is outside of Afghanistan. They do not care what East Asia thinks of them. They usually care only for their village, clan,…etc.
Maybe they’re afraid of offending the worlds heroin users….but then forty minutes after being offended, the users will begin to shake and quickly forgive the Taliban and buy more heroin.
The fact is, if you send a group of mostly women to a region of the world that does not particularly appreciate their abilities, you are MOST CERTAINLY asking for trouble.
also, to all of you who talk about these people having ‘courage’ and ‘balls’ to do what they’re doing. I agree.
For example, you gotta have WICKED BIG BALLS to go to an African country to help them by teaching, among other things, that god hates condoms and they should not be used. That is so helpful and god loves you for doing so. GOD BLESS YOUR efforts to increase the number of HIV/AIDS patients in Africa
I’m not at all convinced that stupid people should breed, so sending stupid people into dangerous areas to be slaughtered is not, in my humble opinion, necessarily a bad thing.
#32. Yes, really. How can replacing one god by another be an improvement if they are both figments of our imagination? By the way, you seem to forget about the Incquisition, the Crussades, the massacre of the Templars, Gnostics, Huguenots, etc.
#32,
Not going to be baited into a flame war other then say that Christianity and the principles of natural law were compatible and allowed to coexist.
One god tolerated secularism and the other far less so.
The ‘islam wants to kill christians’ thing is a bit tired. They don’t actually, and travel writer Rory Stewart proves it.
It should be noted that the Taliban, predominantly pashtun, waged a much more damaging and violent war against ethnic groups like the Hazara, also muslim.
Muslims kills more of their own religion, for the sake of their branch of it, than they do Christians, Jews, and other. The Taliban isnt as much an islamic group as much as they are a nationalistic, patriot, and power hungry pashtun nation looking to invade and subvert the lands and people of its neighboring nations. Afghanistan is like a world of its own. The borders of the ‘nations’ within Afghanistan stretch beyond the borders we see on a map. That’s why Pakistan has so much trouble in the NWFP.
Those people entered Afghanistan under an idea of pure idealism and naivety. In reality, they became a problem in a region that has enough unresolved problems already.
I hope they come back relatively unharmed. I do wonder though, if they do come back safely, who will they thank? Korea, or God? Sadly, I happen to think they’ll think God was paying attention to them on that day.
#42. I personally feel that since humans tend to be unable to control their dicks, and many are somehow unable to be faithful to their partners, tragically, society must oblige to this uncontrollable, beast like desire of people and give them condoms.
Uncle Sam can’t stop Bill from cheating on his wife and sleeping with yours, so Uncle Sam allows Bill to get a condom whenever he wants one. But, does Bill want a condom, or does he consider it a reduction in his beast like experience?
However, only Europe uses condoms with any sort of regularity. This is partly because in Europe, elementary school kids are indoctrinated to use condoms.
United States and the 3rd World, they don’t use condoms. Men from 3rd World countries think condoms are nuts. You can look that one up, because the truth is that they don’t even use condoms even if given.
How hard is it to fuck one girl without protection and not fuck any other?
Apparently, more than 3/4 of the world can’t.
They either need a caravan of wives, sleep around, or in Europe, sleep around with a condom.
Is that normal and natural?
You tell me.
How come men and women get so fired up with anger when they found their partners were sleeping around on them?
Thank you Sewing and Brendon for your gracious responses. The great thing about the gospel is how it can “inextricably” (though we like to say through grace) change a person once full of poison, bitterness, and ultimately pride into a pillar of charity and meekness. It was Nebuchadnezzar, once king of the greatest empire of his day, who after his bout with lunacy brought on by his boastful statement of how much he had accomplished in his kingdom who would recant his pride saying “Now I praise and extol the King of Heaven all whose works are truth and His ways judgment and those that walk in pride He is able to abase.”
A young “wacko” missionary named Jim Elliot once said “he is no fool he gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Ironically, he also wrote in his diary “Am I ignitable? God deliver me from the dread asbestos of ‘other things.’ Saturate me with the oil of the Spirit that I may be aflame. But flame is transient, often short-lived. Canst thou bear this my soul—short life?” Jim Elliot was a quaker. He went to the Auca Indians in the Amazon with 4 Plymouth brethren companions. In 1955, two days after making contact deep in the Jungle, all 5 men were killed by the Auca. Jim was 28. The wives of those men followed shortly after and through grace helped the conversion of that entire tribe of Indians. I pray that one day some of the temporal-mindedness reflected by any posters would also find grace and what cannot be lost.
“I don’t think you know much about the Taliban or Afghanistan, hoidylovesnewts. Most Afghans have NO IDEA what is outside of Afghanistan. They do not care what East Asia thinks of them. They usually care only for their village, clan,…etc.”
The Taliban spokesperson has asked for South Korea to withdraw its troops. The Taliban spokesperson is creating a political relationship between the nationality of the people kidnapped and the nationality of foreign soldiers stationed in Afghanistan. It doesn’t matter what YOU believe MOST Afghans think.
“The fact is, if you send a group of mostly women to a region of the world that does not particularly appreciate their abilities, you are MOST CERTAINLY asking for trouble.”
Did those women enter Afghanistan illegally? What did they do wrong? Don’t let these fucks push you around.
“I always wonder how they can spread the gospel without any language skills.”
…or, even with language skills. Who would listen to that crap?
This affair has all the makings of a repeat fiasco of what happened with Japanese peace workers at the beginning of the current Iraqi war who got themselves kidnapped.
It took a lot of pain and effort on the Japanese and probably the American governments’ parts to get them released. When they finally got back to Tokyo, they were given the kind of frostbite cold reception from both the Japanese government and society — in a way only the Japanese can dish out in exceptional circumstances.
It will be interesting to see how these Koreans come out in the long run — and I will be watching how they will be regarded by the Korean public as they arrive at Incheon.
In the meantime, I think the ROK Government should start preparing to grill this church after this episode passes. The Afghan government has been asking for cooperation from S Korea to keep its citizens out of harm’s way.
The fact is that some people ignore or get around government’s restrictions on travel to war zones to fulfill their own agenda — and then end up having to rely upon the same governments that they have ignored to get their asses out of a pinch.
In my book, at a minimum, they deserve to be publicly censured. And perhaps their church should be assessed the costs of getting them rescued. Religion is not an alibi for being irresponsible.
Apparently only one nurse (and no doctors, not a single one) was among the group, which suggests to me that the pretext of volunteer work was just that — a pretext.
And one reason there’s so much flack coming evangelical Christians’ way is that they’re obnoxious people. They’re especially obnoxious in Korea, in my experience. The most annoying, self-righteous people I’ve met in Korea, aside from some foreigners, were evangelical Christians.
It’s a very selective living out of their faith, Brendon; the Bible has thousands of injunctions against poverty, against allowing poverty to fester, yet in Korea (as elsewhere), Protestant Christianity is big business.
The sending of missionaries to Afghanistan, of all places, is a kind of pursuit of glory. Sure, it must be exciting to preach to people to whom such preaching is illegal, in a faraway, romantically war-torn, dangerous country. It’s also a great feather in the cap of a local church, and something for everyone to feel proud about for a little while. Until, of course, your kids are taken hostage, and you realize that they’re making no inroads to begin with. Nobody can on brief holiday-long trips to foreign lands, after all.
Truly committed Christians would, and do, work with those nearest them, sacrificing their time and energy working tirelessly to help orphans, widows, the handicapped, the sick and dying who are all around them in their home country, where they can do this kind of thing for years and years.
But of course, what glory is there in that? I think we can tell by the number of evangelicals living in among lepers, or volunteering in a place like 꽃동네. (Which calls itself “Christian” but is in fact specifically Catholic. When’s the last time you saw a Christian evangelical-run village set up for the handicapped in Korea?)
As for the response of Koreans online, it seems to be overwhelmingly negative. People are tired of having one international crisis or embarrassment or another caused by the ill-considered adventures of a few radical fanatics.
First, I thought that the Taliban group who did this is a bit… stupid. The SK troops (all non-combatants) were going to be withdrawn by the end of this year anyway… why make things more complicated?
I agree completely with TomCoyner. Unrealistic and poorly planned mission is considered irresponsible even by most Christians. And though I’m a devoted Christian, I think it is completely against what Christianity stands for when missionaries go to impoverished/war-torn areas without humanitarian aid as the primary priority. A South Park episode puts it perfectly when a missionary in Africa, after being asked desperately for anything to eat, hands out a Bible instead.
The church leader(s), as well as people who have organized this mission, need to be thoroughly investigated and possibly prosecuted for their mind-numbingly irresponsible actions.
It’s not that missions to Islamic countries are impossible (albeit quite hard), but countries where war is still raging, missionaries need to stay away.
Well, it looks like it’s about to be over: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19862713/
Hopefully this will be over very soon.
The Koreans I ask are scornful of these Korean churches that are arrogant and ignorant to the point of believing that they must send people out to get people to believe what they believe.
It would be better if Korean churches spent more effort administering to the needs of Koreans here rather than spreading throughout the far places of the earth like the plague.
Iheartblueballs: Going on a mission trip to provide medical services is nothing like flying airplanes into a building.
Tom Coyner: What one man calls irresponsible, another man calls brave.
But I’m surprised at your remarks in this fourm. I mean, you have a habit of heralding the sacrifices that American soldiers made during the Korean War. How can you not see the parallels between the risks these missionaries are taking and the risks taken by brave American GIs in the fifties?
Some people actually believe in something higher than themselves.
You have the right to make excuses for your aversion to risk, but have the decency not to belittle those who take risks for what they believe in.
Michael: From a coward’s point of view, a missionary’s eggs would appear to be scrambled.
BumfromKorea: You’re speculating. You do not not know how well or poorly planned the trip was.
But your second argument reveals a deplorable lack of critical thinking. A war torn country is precisely the type of place where missionaries are needed the most. People whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. People who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Oh yeah, and your South Park analogy is way off base because the missionaries in question also offered medical services. Did you read the article?
Gordsellar: You’re a bit of hypocrite. In earlier posts you criticize Koreans for being too nationalistic–for being too concerned with Korean problems and not caring about other countries. Now, all of a sudden you change tacks and criticize these Korean missionaries for NOT focusing on problems at home, claiming that they should have been focused on easing domestic suffering.
But hypocrisy aside, your arguments still lack merit; you assume too much. You assume that this group of nurses did not cooperate with doctors who were already stationed in Afghanistan. Keep in mind that over 900 missionaries have gone to Afghanistan from Korea and that the troops stationed in Korea are in the medical corps. It’s highly probabale that they worked with doctors who were already in Afghanistan.
There are a number of other errors in your reasoning. I’ll bulletpoint them:
1. You mistakenly assume that the church in question was not helping to ease suffering in Korea at the same time that it sent missionaries to Afghanistan. Take a look at their church’s website and you’ll see that their church has been helping people in Korea for quite awhile.
2. You imply that doing the mission for personal glory somehow detracts from the honor in their mission; it doesn’t. As long as the word of God is spread and people’s lives are saved, their mission is honorable. In other words a person can still give glory to God and receive personal benefits.
3. Afganistan has a lower number of Christians than does Korea. So it makes sense for missionaries to go to Afghanistan.
4. Your argument is naive. It is not necessary for Korea to become a utopia before Koreans go out and help others. One does not need to be Bill Gates to help people in poverty. One does not need to be Albert Einstein to help someone with physics. Perfection does not preclude good-will. If everyone in the world thought as you did, nothing would get done.
Perhaps because the brave American GIs in the 50s risked their lives to save South Koreans from being absorbed by one of the most odious regimes of the 20th century, while the missionaries in Afghanistan are risking their lives (and putting the Korean and Afghan governments in a tight spot) to tell locals that their metaphysics are wrong?
Oh my Goodness. This time, I am in complete agreement with the notorious jackass YoungRocco2. Wow, Jesus really does bring people closer together!
While I agree with gordsellar’s observation about the obnoxious pushiness of Korean Christian evangelists, as I’ve come to understand Koreans’ nearly absolute lack of what we Westerners would call “social graces”, I’ve become more tolerant of the evangelists’ pushiness as well. At least they think what they’re pushing is good for me.
Their metaphysics? You just slammed Christians and Muslims both in one fell swoop. All for the sake of…what?
and, I’d like to offer a difference between GIs fighting in a war and missionaries risking their lives for what they believe. One has in the back of his mind the safety of his comrades and foremost his family, for this life only. The other places himself in danger with no previous threat to himself or any other totally for the sake of what they see as another person’s eternal security. The epitome of unselfishness.
Youngrocco2
The missionaries were traveling in southern Afghanistan, where most of the fightings are taking place. The place is also notorious for kidnappers who kidnaps civilians for wartime gains (several German civilians were also kidnapped there recently for the very same reason they are kidnapped for). Since these people were traveling in that area without any security, without any emergency plans, or without any personal protection measures. Sounds pretty unprepared and immaturely planned to me.
Are you telling me people who are hurt and starving cares more about religious salvation rather than, say, immediate life sustainment?
Salvation Army has a very good grasp of this concept; they don’t even try to convert people they help until they have been helped sufficiently. This is also true of other “community shelter” places around where I live (and where I volunteer at); they offer voluntary services on Sundays, but that’s it.
Also, Youngrocco2, I think it is you who needs to read the articles (notice the plural). The group only had one certified nurse – the rest were college kids and homemakers. “providing medical services” might be a big exaggeration.
The YTN ticker just reported a German was killed.
Well, the deadline has passed, hopefully nothing has happened to the people.
As an agnostic who was raised Catholic and the Protestant I have read the Bible from cover to cover and understand the tenets of christianity well. Parts of it make up our Western judeo-christian culture and are compatible with secular ethics, and the rest is a leap of faith.
To Youngrocco, Mr. Carr and the others who made the leap, while I don’t find christianity in any way relevant in my life I respect your beliefs if they don’t harm you or others. However, the Koreans in Afghanistan have put themselves in harm’s way and it effects this country’s noncombat mission and could destroy their families with grief. And for what? Christianity isn’t attractive when it’s prostyletized in such an ignorant manner.
Even though I’m agnostic and disagree with Christopher Hitchens on many things his book “God is Not Great” is a brilliant argument against religion. Read it if you dare. Here’s an excerpt:
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/
Matthew 28:19-20 tells them that God commands them to witness and thereby “make disciples of every nation”. They are living their belief in a very real and profound way, despite the very obvious danger of doing so. Good for them. I haven’t such courage.
And you struck me as such a reasonable person. The problem here – a problem you share with your missionary zealot friends – is a fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems. Religious bigotry is one word for it. I just hope they get out ok and don’t go back.
For the record, I am not a “Christian”. I belong to no church and am not a “missionary” — except maybe for libertarianism. Too many differences between what I can observe and what’s demanded of me to believe. How about that?
Perhaps due to my “fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems”, I don’t engage in knee-jerk denunciations of Christians. That’s because “religious bigotry” is precisely the right term to describe that stupid behavior. That’s a belief system I can’t respect.
I have read, and read from time to time, the Bible. So what if I know what’s in the Bible? Everyone should. Whether you believe it to be literal Truth, it’s the single most important book in Western history. Believe it or not, answers to many of life’s questions can indeed be found in that book — it’s a record that connects us in a very real way to the origins of our civilization.
Mr. Carr, slam dunk.
It is quite noble on an individual level what they are trying to do. I agree with many however, that much of the impetus is from heads of churches interested in self-aggrandizement.
There is a much bigger problem with it and it is a misunderstanding of the scope of these naive young believers. They don’t know what they are getting into and even though they don’t care if they die people are going to risk their lives to help them. Some already have. As if the people over there don’t have their hands full as it is. All they are doing is taking time away from people who were doing good work and had a much better way of implementing it.
The average age of the 20 kidnapped missionaries is 34. Is 34 too young to make such choices?
This is a favorite trope of the know-it-all left: Those poor, misguided children! If only someone who knew better could have protected them — someone smart like Planned Parenthood, Amnesty International, PBS, the Parents’ Music Resource Center, PETA, or… or… me!
They do it to the military too. It’s why (okay, one of the reasons why) Cindy Sheehan makes me sick.
Perhaps due to my “fundamental lack of respect for other people’s belief systems”, I don’t engage in knee-jerk denunciations of Christians.
Who said anything about denunciating Christians? Go back and read what I wrote carefully. I respect the right of Christians to believe in what they want. And I expect them to let others believe in what they want as well. The goal of missionaries in Afganistan – and I have no doubt the Koreans involved in this farce are a part of that – is to convert Muslims into Christians. To fix them of their false belief.
Religious bigotry means a stubborn and complete intolerance of any religious creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. You clearly believe in the idea – since you’ve quoted it from the bible – of making disciples of every nation in the world. And you also suggest that if you had the courage you’d do it too.
In other words, you think it quite a dapper idea to change someone else’s belief system into a model of your own. That Brenden, is religious bigotry.
I have read, and read from time to time, the Bible. So what if I know what’s in the Bible? Everyone should.
No, everyone shouldn’t. That’s an opinion that you’re projecting.
Whether you believe it to be literal Truth, it’s the single most important book in Western history. Believe it or not, answers to many of life’s questions can indeed be found in that book — it’s a record that connects us in a very real way to the origins of our civilization.
Exactly what “origins” are we talking about Brenden? If we’re talking about divine origins, I’d just as soon read the Torah, the teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, the Dhammapada and the Holy Quran. Or none of them at all.
If we’re talking history (literal Truth as you put it), I’d steer well clear of the aformentioned titles and read Thucydides, the first author to place emphasis on fact and objectivity.
Cindy Sheehan isn’t over there. I don’t believe any of the groups you mentioned are very well represented there in the flesh. There are people who live there and work there who have and will interrupt their lives to try to keep these people out of trouble.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe these people are expert at entering war torn countries illegally getting through some of the most dangerous regions in the world unscathed. Tell you what, we’ll leave them alone and see the impact they have.
Whoops! Too late.
Just a guess here, but in your case, is the answer “none of them at all”?
Say, who was it that wrote “But, the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it”? Let us know. We’re curious. I haven’t been into Thucydides since high school but I’m fairly sure it was him.
And yet, you look down on these brave Christians.
And Marmot, you beat me to it:
Rocco: How can you not see the parallels between the risks these missionaries are taking and the risks taken by brave American GIs in the fifties?
Where do you begin with that whopper? Awe-inspiring.
And: People whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. People who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Which god, Rocco? Stop projecting your beliefs like they’re some sort of immutable universal law. Let me help you. What you should have written was:
I think some people whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair. I think some people who are losing the things they hold most dear need hope and the word of God offers that hope.
Get it?
Just a guess here, but in your case, is the answer “none of them at all”?
Bingo.
Don’t be so proud of being ignorant. How can you deny and denounce something about which you admittedly know nothing?
Oh, you’re right. Boy am I red-faced. I should have said, “older people who should know better who have become a monumental burden on those living and working there”.
What is wrong with trying to do some good above the thirty-eighth parallel? If they put anyone at risk it would be people already up to their eyeballs in risk. I’ll tell you why. They’d have to toil in anonymity. It lacks that element of world focus. Without the renown and jack these church leaders won’t give their troops the marching orders.
Thucydides. And I don’t look down on the Christians, as I’ve stressed. I object to them looking down on other people’s beliefs.
Unfortunately I couldn’t find a quote about tolerance in the Bible – maybe you could help me on that one? – but in the meantime, here’s one taken from a Native American Indian mantra.
All the races and tribes in the world are like the different colored flowers of one meadow. All are beautiful. As children of the Creator they must all be respected.
Perhaps you couldn’t find it because you won’t open the Book. Let me help you, brother: Check out Matthew 7:1-5 and Romans 2:1-11. Basically, these relate Jesus and the apostle Paul’s injunctions not to judge others, lest we be judged ourselves. Christian or not, good advice.
Don’t be so proud of being ignorant. How can you deny and denounce something about which you admittedly know nothing?
I’m not proud and I’m not ignorant. I’ve read some of it, how could I not? And again, i’ll get around to reading it all when I get around to reading all the other religious texts.
From what I understand, the bible is a man-made collection of works voted to be the word of god by some men in the 4th century. It first started being put together at the council of Nicea (?) and finished at another council at a later date. The emporer Constantine actually paid church leaders to agree upon the final product.
Now why do I have to be ignorant not to have read it from cover to cover? It is a book, made by men, for the consumption of men. From a purely literary point of view I find it impressive. Otherwise, I’m not interested.
In my opinion there is nothing in that book, no teaching, no sacred word, that do a better job of making me a good person than the humble advice of my parents.
God died, and his moshpit crowd didn’t want the party to end and they brought him back again from some pet semetary and that is why he smells.
I see few correlations between what Jesus preached and what passes for a church today. Haven’t we learned that governments are insidious enough to pose as our holy wishes?
There is a part of the human mind that wants to be a part of something amazing. A peninsular analog would be the way our northern neighbours attribute everything from space ships to free air to their leader. It’s just more pronounced there.
It’s a moshpit here and it’s a moshpit there and when people go recruiting headbangers from other parties it is bound it end well. I mean not well.
“The argument with faith is the foundation and origin of all arguments, because it is the beginning—but not the end—of all arguments about philosophy, science, history, and human nature. It is also the beginning—but by no means the end—of all disputes about the good life and the just city. Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it. I would be quite content to go to their children’s bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to “respect” their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations. And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing.”
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/
The Korean government shouldn’t negotiate with them, but it looks like that’s what they’re going to do. As unfortunate as they are, those missionaries took a chance, it was their choice. It was their choice to ignore the warnings and dangers, putting the allied governments in a very difficult spot. Let this be a hard lesson to those Koreans who still foolishly wander around no-go zones, that their government is not going to bail them out if they get into trouble.
ROK government should cancel the planned withdraw in December, instead send in more troops. Send in combat troops instead.
Here’s an article with a photo of the group:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/afg.....KpJl4DW7oF
It looks like the men grew beards to fit in with the locals.
I would guess the men would be the first ones to be executed. The women, I don’t know what they’ll do.
SomeGuy: You disappoint me, usually your posts are really good. Inquisition and crusades aside, none of those have afflicted society for a very long time. Yet Muslim extremism is a current blight on this earth that regularly inflicts large amounts of violent death. So I would counter that “switching one god for another” (sic: it’s the same god; that of Abraham) would be at least a net positive.
Careb: I wish you would afford Christians at least as much consideration in #37 as you gave Muslims in #35, I smell hypocrisy. Furthermore, they’re the ones getting off their butts, risking their lives, leaving their cushy homes in Korea going to some hole and running a hospital. Might I add they aren’t some HMO doing this for profit either. When you do the same, maybe then you can tell them not to win some props for their religion. But until then I think they’ve earned the right to at least mention they are a from a church while they’re healing the sick.
And lastly, to everyone else heaping scorn upon these poor souls. They didn’t ask for your pity, nor did they ask for the Korean Government to care (they couldn’t but bear with me), they didn’t even arrange for security and I’m sure they would be criticized were they to eat public funds in such a poor country using armed escorts to support a religious operation. And they certain don’t need you’re scorn right now. So many assume that they think like you and expect your help, or expect some big armed operation or ransom to save them. But stop and think for a second, maybe they don’t. They certainly aren’t praying to Noh Mu Hyun or Ban-Ki Moon and certainly NOT you right now. Right now, they want only one thing, and they are asking it from “their” god. And if you aren’t him, stop complaining. As if all this drama, media attention and politicians running around will do anything, it just makes it worse by giving the captors a voice.
And think for a second with the immense numbers of Christian martyrs throughout history, that these noble humanitarians went there with the worst that could happen we in the back of their minds. Maybe, just maybe, they aren’t ignorant fools.
Hi Guys, New to this Blog, Quite an Interesting blog site, yah-all got here…
Just a quick opinion, Knuckleheads, every single one of them. The K Gov. had issued that such trips would get no support from the K gov, yet they didn’t listen. The whole country was told when the last guy got beheaded in Iraq. What the hell is it gonna take to get it through these naive little churches to stop sending missionaries to war-zones? Honestly if you give me a choice between changing K F. Policy and the lives of the missionaries, I say you need to stand your ground. However, I am sure that Mr. Roh will get down on his knees and beg the Taliban to spair the lives of these little missionaries. I hope they come back safely but I believe the price will be too high. If there is any kind of justice, they will return to a Korean Prision.
Honestly I don’t even see what the big fuss is about saving the lives of these hostages is anyway. I mean, if they’re brutally slaughtered or beheaded or tortured for days before being executed, isn’t that all “part of god’s plan” for them? He is the man with the plan and grand control over his sheep, is he not? Should they be hacked limb by limb, it was because the beard so decreed from his mighty throne above, so what’s the use of worrying?
Wouldn’t they in fact be going to “heaven” and an after-life free of worries and filled with the glory and splendor that they so crave? Why should the Korean government intervene on their behalf? Wouldn’t that be like denying them their destiny and salvation? Or does god actually want “people whose lives have been destroyed by violence and strife need to lean on the word of God to get through despair.”
..fits you to a fucking T. The way to deal with adversity is to look up in the sky and ask the clouds to rescue you. Brilliant. And when the clouds don’t feed you, shelter you, or give you a job, you can always turn to the numerous Catholic cardinals and archbishops, who will then save you by informing you that condoms are the leading transmitter of AIDS. Oh lord the salvation that must be felt when one’s body is ravaged by disease because some douchebag church muckety muck who — when he isn’t fingering little boys and receiving cover from the church for doing so — wants to scare you into conforming to his religions rules. PRAISE JESUS!
And Brendon, the fact that you fall on the same page as the notorious jackass should be an indicator as to what type of page it is you’re occupying. There’s a very simple illogical and irrational slant to everything he writes, and this is no exception. You know what they say about the company you keep…but then again, maybe keeping that company is all part of god’s plan for you.
If someone could fix that blockquote / italics clusterfuck and delete this, god would be pleased.
I know it’s not nice but, look at this photo with clear warning about situation in that country and one of the member wrote notes they have written on Cyworld, bragging about what they have done in that country. Wow…
http://gall.dcinside.com/list......amp;page=1
the Catholic Church is simply saying,
Don’t fuck around.
I mean, that’s a wholesome, good message.
Don’t fuck around.
you will be free of love-childs you can’t afford to care for. You won’t get genital herpes, and genital warts. It’s good for you to show some restraint. Life is about discipline to some degree in all aspects. Several std’s are with you for life. Keep that in mind. Condoms won’t prevent all of them, even if worn properly. Do you really want to schedule an appointment every couple months to burn away genital warts, with your husband or wife?
Are you gonna call this a miracle nd start saying Hallelujahs and reading the Bible if these people are released by the Taliban?
Really? Or are you gonna call it a coincidence? Probably won’t move anyone much, since it’s not really anyone’s personal problem.
Reminds me of what I’ve heard. People start caring about your problems until your problem becomes their problem. Then, they don’t give a shit. They want you to get lost, with your problem.
Don’t try to understand religion. It’s basically philosophy.
As an alternative to pulling out troops building infrastructure for their country, Taliban wants the Koreans exchanged for Taliban prisoners. Oh, how gracious of them. They want the Koreans to release Taliban prisoners held by Uncle Sam. It’s totally beyond Korean control. The only thing they can do is board a plane and announce withdrawal. But, there should be no deal with a terrorist. For the state’s interest. For the individual’s well being, the deal should be made.
yeah, you’re right. If they die, they die. They’re going to a better place. That’s what they believe, so a true believe should never ever fear death.
Why do I get the feeling that these naive young people were “encouraged” to go by older, overzealous priests?
Those responsible for setting up this trip are no doubt covering their asses.
What a wonderful world!
If you read some of those netizen comments, those women aren’t getting too much sympathy. As illustrated in that link, they defiantly went fully knowing what they getting into. Korean government warned them, begged them, told them to stay away. But they snuck in anyway thinking that they’re invincible. I say let God save them. Isn’t that what they expect?
Well, now it appears the Taliban would be willing to conduct a prisoner exchange — 23 Taliban for the 23 Koreans. Now, I think it can be assumed that if this were to take place, the released Taliban wouldn’t just go back to their farms to peacefully herd goats. Our missionaries may have in fact not martyred themselves to tell another culture that their religious beliefs are wrong, but rather martyred Afghan civilians, Afghan troops and coalition troops to tell another culture that their religious beliefs are wrong. Again, this is assuming such a trade were to take place, which — as much as I hope these folk come back safely — I hope it doesn’t.
BTW, I might be willing to concede some degree of respect for people willing to die in such circumstances as long as they sign a statement before they leave asking the government NOT to bother trying to rescue them once martyrdom calls.
Look at their pompous faces as they pose in front of Korean government warnings about Afghanistan Talibans who are targeting Koreans for kidnaps. Why should Korea bail them out if they refused Korean government protection in the first place? If they already wrote wills before they went in, then they surely knew this is what was going to happen. I guess they wanted to be Christian martyrs. I say grant their wishes. It’s unbelievable that their relatives and the church leaders are blaming the Korean government for all this fiasco.
What seems to be lost among some pretty venomous treatment of the victims here — foolhardy as I agree they may have been — is any attribution of blame or contempt for the kidnapping, head-lopping terrorists. That’s not the sort of contempt we should take for granted because we’re too preoccupied with judging their victims.
Based upon what I have read elsewhere, I’m beginning to think it might be a good idea to pay the Taliban to *keep* these people as a reminder to self-styled Korean churches what can happen when they act in ignorance.
Apparently the Korean Government should consider putting meaningful penalties upon the churches that cause them so many problems as well.
cm: “Look at their pompous faces as they pose in front of Korean government warnings about Afghanistan Talibans who are targeting Koreans for kidnaps.”
Yeah, the Jesus-freaks in Korea are q
er… that is, “quite a self-assured lot.”
looking around naver, this time there is no sympathy as in Kim Sun Il’s case.
Kim Sun Il begged to be spared his life.
The majority of Korea is not Christian, thus there is considerable negative views towards these actions.
So, the question arises, why try to save them? They’re going to heaven.
The answer would be for the sake of their loved ones who are still on earth. And who says for sure they are going to heaven? They might be begging their captors for life as well.
Like I said, a true believer wouldn’t fear death.
Caveat. There are very few true believers, especially in the face of death.
Yeah, they went there illegally. Yeah, they should be responsible for their actions. The right thing is the talk the Talibans and convince them to release them without any premature withdrawal of any sort.
The wrong thing would be to cooperate with the Talibans. ROK has no control over Taliban prisoners. All they can do is beg the US govt. But, should they?
Never cooperate with terrorists. George W. Bush’s war on Iraq and Afghanistan was meant to rid the world of these kind of terrorists. For the good of mankind.
Civilians should not suffer as in this case for a militant political group wishing to acheive a political agenda. Fight man to man. Show your face. Don’t fuck with innocent people. That’s my challenge to right wing Muslims. You’re a pussy. The kind all mankind abhor.
Imagine what would happen if Bush raided random US Muslims citizens, and demanded Iran and Syria and Taliban to stop the aggresion or else.
He’d be the biggest pussy in the world and the most hated man in the world.
Strangely, this logic doesn’t jive with right wing Muslims.
It’s a clash of civilizations.
“What seems to be lost among some pretty venomous treatment of the victims here — foolhardy as I agree they may have been — is any attribution of blame or contempt for the kidnapping, head-lopping terrorists. That’s not the sort of contempt we should take for granted because we’re too preoccupied with judging their victims.”
Errr… we know hurricanes and typhoons are really bad and are very destructive. But what do we say when foolish people still insist on going bird watching in the middle of the storm despite all the warnings? All of a sudden the hurricane becomes a back burner issue while the story about these foolish people become the front page headlines. I say let the Talibans do whatever the hell they want with them.
but the govt still rescues people staying with their homes in a hurricane, right?
Right?
Right.
ROK govt is doing what it can without bowing to terrorists. They are neither doing too little or doing too much.
I think that photo linked above pretty much closes this case. If anyone throws the word courage around after seeing that, then they’re really beyond help. These people were either too stupid to recognize the danger or just stupid enough to laugh in the face of it.
Funny how god’s great protective umbrella is relied upon only until it’s actually needed. After which non-imaginary means of protection seem to be quite useful.
agree with no.92. faith doesn’t include expecting government intercession.
no.101 While u have a knack for wit, the effort and time you are spending to level your hatred for people who don’t affect you in the slightest puts you in company with such wonderful christian lovers as Nero and OBL. You just never had the “courage” to act on your wishes. Such blatantly spoken desire to see these people killed and to strike a nerve with all christians no matter how far from the particular brand these hostages might be is telling. Maybe if the captors mailed you the heads afterwards, you’d be happy. Maybe if we rounded up all Christians and had them apologize for inconveniencing you before you killed them, you’d be happy. Maybe if they could all be charmed by your charisma and sound reason to understand this world as completely and fully as you with all of your great qualities and kindness and generosity, you’d be happy. I doubt it…hatred is a mindset that needs no target.
are you saying blueballs is hateful?
Really?
Funny. I didn’t think anyone would accuse him of such when he was using the same on anything and everything concerning Korea.
wjk, i guess it was the expressed wish for people to die that made me willing to say that…As such, you can certainly take his tone in this post to mind when reading anything else he writes on other subjects, to include Korea.
“I get the feeling Seoul is going to be in for an especially tough time convincing Kabul to do anything for these hostages… Not a whole lot of cards to play, unless Seoul decides to try to go through Washington, which I doubt very strongly would be effective.”
Agreed, so this means the Koreans will seek a backdoor deal with the Taliban (probably in exchange for political statements against the forces in Afghanistan, and perhaps cash or an even earlier withdrawal).
Don’t think on a mundane basis, nor insult the caught by negating Yahweh and the existence of Heavenly Land.
All are predestined to Yahweh’s will and it’s good and holy to go to the Heavenly Land, with less taint and less sin. Hallelujah to the Hevenly Being.
AFP is reporting that NATO troops launched a rescue mission to free the hostages. Now, AFP is not too reliable, so take that into consideration.
Now Seoul is denying the AFP report.
IHBB is not being hateful so much as pointing out what should be obvious.
Now Reuters is seconding the AFP report:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters.....tages.html
But Seoul is denying it (for obvious reasons I guess).
Sure is quiet now…y’all must be in church
MrChips, meet Rocco. Rocco, meet MrChips. I see you’ve been gorging at the same reading incomprehension buffet of dumbfuckery. Enjoy your meal.
Once you’re able to both read and comprehend, let me know.
#94: Agreement. Although these people are foolhardy, the onus is on the terrorists to release them unharmed. This whole narrative is off track: It shouldn’t be about the victims, but the towel-headed scum who kidnapped them. If I were Korea I’d have already sent a SOC battalion and a squadron of F-16s. Time to show some sac, Noh.
#110. Still intent on slinging hate instead of reason? Everything you write about revolves around denigrating others. Each thought that comes into your head is entirely dependent upon how much pleasure you can derive from seeing other people squirm. Not one sarcastic comment leaves your mind that isn’t carefully constructed to show how much absolute indifference you have for anyone other than yourself. You have neither reason nor intent behind your diatribe other than the hope that you can make someone else’s day worse and your’s better in doing so. You dare to bring up subjects like courage and stupidity while exhibiting the opposite of the first and exemplifying the second. You claim “reason” to explain a world that can’t be explained and belittle those who rely on faith, to account for the same. You expect the Christian to exhibit a standard of values towards all men at the expense of what they care for the most when you wouldn’t even consider the same respect for your mother, to you a mutually exclusive act in gratifying yourself.
But in the end it makes no difference to a Christian. They live their lives in Christian hedonism fully enjoying everything that they have given their lives to while you live in utter misery giving yourself transient pleasure such as one sarcastic comment can afford you.
If I die and you’re right then who cares? I’ve been happy all the way and won’t lose anything by it and neither will anyone else. If you die and I’m right as I’m utterly confident is the case, I still won’t care because my highest concern will be my God and his placement of you will be acceptable to me. But you’ll care.
Alot of people including too many Christians seem to think good and evil depends upon how it affects people. False. Good depends only on our motivation relative to a superior being. But then for you, there ought not to be a sense of good or bad…you can do whatever you want that a more powerful force of arms doesn’t resist.
Not everything Christian is about turning the other cheek. When the offense is directed at an individual, so be it. But when the clear intent is to belittle the God who granted you life and each breath and who holds you tender, fragile, emaciated form at the same time as the universe the only just response is to point you out as the fool. The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. But rest assured everyone gets what they want in the end. You want no God? I promise you will have no God in the end. Unfortunately you get everything that comes with that.
But lets be even more clear about the foolishness of men.
“The anger of God is shown towards all men who by their unrightousness suppress the truth. What can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the worlds in teh things that have been made. So you are with out excuse. For although you know God, you do not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him but have become futile in your thinking and your foolish heart has been darkened. Claiming to be wise they have become fools and have exchanged the glory of the immortal God for trivialnes of man and beast. So God has given you up in the lust of your heart to impurity, to the dishonoring of your body (prescient for one finding pleasure in a picture of himself smashing his balls). Because you have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worship the creature instead of the Creator.”
A full description of IHBB fully 2000 years ago. Through his verbal vomit he fulfills the word of God completely.
Right, with just the one nurse. Maybe the healing that’s required is for these sickos, really, and if they’re rescued, God forbid, they’ll be cured all right…
“I’ve been happy all the way and won’t lose anything by it and neither will anyone else.” Too bad the same can’t be said for those too self-absorbed with their own navigation of that stairway to heaven. Look at all the people they’ve dragged into this and who are now wasting valuabel time, effort and perhaps lives.
They jumped into a shark infested pool and they thought they were going to go there to assist medically or teach English? And what are you saying? The life-guard should just watch? That’s basically self-assisted suicide. We don’t work that way and I think the head of this church knows that. This is a big publicity grab. Too bad all the actors may die.
Once again, if it isn’t a pub grab, why not infiltrate North Korea. Are you saying people up there don’t need help? Yes, I know, CNN won’t be all over it for weeks because they will merely disappear. Perhaps two years from now there will be reports that they were indoctrinated into the North’s philosophy and perhaps a few weeks later committed suicide. Exactly, no romance, no glory, no story, no publicity for reverend All-About-Me and his Children of the Corn Church.
At least these people had the fucking guts to go into a country full knowing the consequences of their actions. Try being helpful and stop fucking dissing these poor people for their faith. These people went in for relief work as well as missionary work- who in the world would have that much courage and love? All they wanted was to help the Afghanis and look what’s hit them; put yourself in the families and their shoes.
And, please, stop saying these people are “crazy” and working for a “dictator in the sky” and fucking shit like that.
“Once again, if it isn’t a pub grab, why not infiltrate North Korea. Are you saying people up there don’t need help? Yes, I know, CNN won’t be all over it for weeks because they will merely disappear.”
There are a lot of Korean missionaries who are going to China to help the North Korean escapees find homes and eventually, their way out of China. Just because it’s not publicised or because you don’t know about it doesn’t mean it happens.
I’ve heard stories of North Koreans going back into North Korea to share the gospel to their families and village members. Try going into persecution.com and have a read of the articles there.
Also, Jesus commanded His followers not to publicise their good deeds and charity and called all those who did as hypocrites and liars. I think you should read the New Testment before trumping accusations like that.
*Just because it’s not publicised or because you don’t know about it doesn’t mean it never happens.
Blueballs’ commentaries on religion remind me of lines in Ambrose Bierce’s “Devil’s Dictionary” like:
“Religion. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.”
“Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.”
“Impiety. Your irreverence toward my deity.”
http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/
(Bierce goes after everyone, not just the religious.)
I have a feeling that the watered-down metaphysics and thinly veiled implications of damnation he’s being hit with are like water off a duck’s ass for IHBB
And it’s interesting that none of you really address what he is specifically saying….
There are those who toil in anonymity. These ain’t them. You say there are many in China who are sending the word of God back via North Korean escapees who have reentered that country? Why didn’t these people do the same. Certainly it’s no more dangerous than infiltrating Afghanistan.
Why are there so many North Korean’s living in South Korea receiving so little assistance? Many of them are wishing they’d never left.
Equating criticism with hate is an infantile deflection. I don’t hate Christians and (despite your previous retarded analysis) don’t wish death upon anyone, no matter how ignorant or how foolish. The sarcastic questions I asked were obviously to point out the inconsistencies in putting your life in god’s hands until real danger arises, when putting your life in man’s hands is convenient.
So much easier to write everything off as hate than to deal with the reality (and by reality I mean complete imaginary fiction) of what you’re defending.
I denigrate stupidity, and those who attempt to paint stupidity as courage. Both of which deserve it in spades.
Chips, you’re not even half-competent at understanding what you read, so why don’t you leave the 3rd-grade armchair psychology to others. It embarrasses you and the baby jesus.
God requests that you stay out of my mind. It’s his plan for you. Obey. Faith-based nutballs are good at that.
Reason in quotes. Fucking loves it. Keep on faithin’ on brother. There’s a reason that a Nobel Prize for physics is given every year, yet no Nobel Prize for faith. Try and figure out why.
How dare you blaspheme a good Christian like my mother! God commands you to strip naked, bathe yourself in a mixture of water and wine, and say 500 hail marys while rubbing yourself with a crucifix. The power of Christ compels you! Atone for your sins against a fellow Christian, you blashphemous heretic! Or face an imaginary punishment in an imaginary place by an imaginary dude with horns and a pitchfork!
Is Christian hedonism similar to the Hedonism Two nudist resort in the Caribbean? Cause that place kicks ass and if there’s as much sucking and fucking going on in the Christian version, sign me up. Unless of course it involves sucking and fucking young boys, as your “leaders” of faith are well-known for partaking in, in which case I’ll pass.
Sweet lord this is what I love about the jesus freaks. They’re hell-bent on claiming that anyone who doesn’t believe in their ark fantasies is “miserable.” They’ve got a fucking monopoly on happiness and god is the only source, so you better come to our church and don’t forget to donate. Because only praying to non-existant deities can bring you happiness, and all you atheists are miserable in your godless hell!
And can you give me some more information on this transient pleasure you speak of? Is that more like a rim job or a hand job, because I enjoy both. I just hope it doesn’t mean a bj from that smelly transient under the bridge, because I only seek those when the wife is on the rag or Cinemax is off the air.
Well, ignorance is bliss. My college roommate believed in a god that required masturbating 5 times daily and promised him a harem of 3-titted supermodels in heaven if he complied. He was also happy. And stupid. But happy.
Are you threatening me? Because threatening an atheist with eternal damnation is like threatening Ron Jeremy with pussy.
Yes, I can do whatever I want! And I don’t have to confer with a pedophile every week to see if I’ve been a good boy and that my room in the sky is still booked. Imagine that.
I also regularly belittle Santy Clause who granted me bountiful gifts, the Easter Bunny who granted me numerous delicious hard-boiled eggs of various colors, and sometimes even the Tooth Fairy because that bitch deserves it for stiffing me on a front tooth. Surprisingly, none have sought retribution for my felonious belittling. I expect that pussy god doesn’t have the balls to do it either.
That’s so beautiful I nearly crapped my pants. Oops. Scratch nearly.
Seriously chips, thanks from the bottom of my heart for this dialogue on religious matters. Soon yet I may see the light and start praying to god. And as long as he’s willing to provide me the tri-titted supermodels with Grade 14 rimjob abilities in heaven, then I may yet sign the contract that requires me to give away my brain in exchange for “faith” and all it entails. Because I’m not a stupid man, and if the reward is that my asshole will be licked on a regular basis throughout eternity, even I will become an ignorant fool for that after-life. Praise jesus.
“Still intent on slinging hate instead of reason? Everything you write about revolves around denigrating others.”
Yes, but did you criticize him when he was slinging sarcasm at Koreans or did you get angry only when he aimed his cutting speech at Christian commenters here?
I’m not sure about that analogy. The existence of eternal damnation is up for theological debate, but I’ve verified quite satisfactorily that pussy exists.
Sonagi, the lord our father says “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Your agreement with chips that I do nothing but denigrate others has been classified as a judgment by the lord.
Do not further anger the almighty, or he shall smite you, and if that occurs, you shall be smoten.
Well that disqualifies you for the priesthood then.
Why would an omnipotent being create a universe full of life just so it could charge it’s occupants admission to heaven? What’s the name for that mental condition? Hubris, or something like that.
And why can’t people just do good for the sake of it? Didn’t most of the prophets we hear about preach humility?
I have read the New “Testment” and I will say it again, this is a pub grab! The New “Testament” never stopped a number of religiously annointed jitbags from sentencing people to death or sending the ignorant to a sure death.
Are you saying because the New Testament exists that the leader of this particular church isn’t full of himself? That’s the sort of ignorance that causes people to remain silent while priests continue to, well, do what they do.
You can have a look at the picture of the kidnapped 23 in the Canadian paper. Read the comments section, it’s now up to 244 comments as I speak.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....ional/home
Go here, then click on the small picture to enlarge it.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....onal/home/
“I’ve verified quite satisfactorily that pussy exists.” So, you must be a cunning linguist.
Maddlew, what’s a “pub grab”? Anyway, you’ll just get the old argument that christians are not perfect, but their god is, although you have to wonder about the qualities of a god that would create things like us …
#122. I wouldn’t comment if he made a sarcastic remark about someone else’s sister but if it was about mine I would. The more personal a remark the more likely a response. Is that strange to you? Are you suggesting then that my charge was correct?
#121. criticism is one thing, what you’re doing is not that. You couldn’t get through a line without resorting to the vulgar. Tells me where your reasoning ability lies. Everything you’ve written is scorn for what you think is stupid while stating very clearly for all only your way, the one of absolute and utter accident, could possibly be right. You rely on vulgarity rather than reason to laugh at those who rely on faith that an omniscient being created a world from nothing while at the same time holding to the inherently impossible position that something could have been created from nothing by nothing.
Your dogma on the stupidity of Christians to believe in a magic beard somehow, fantastically, coincides with a demand that Christians acknowledge the “acceptability” of other religions as if such a preposterous thing as mutually exclusive philosophies could hold in a world that is governed by the law of non-contradiction.
It wasn’t enough to single out these particular missionaries as dong something stupid. You can’t backtrack and say that. Specifically, for those who need specific responses to what you are specifically saying that I characterize as hatred:
1. “Oh lord the salvation that must be felt when one’s body is ravaged by disease because some douchebag church muckety muck who — when he isn’t fingering little boys and receiving cover from the church for doing so.”
You clearly meant to lump all Christian into the same boat with people who are christian in name only and by their consistent acts of vulgarity and manipulation of others contradict the tenets of Christianity and therefore no Christian should be associated with them. Where I would lump them with you as only self-gratifying and clearly, not Christian.
2. “So the reason for my venom directed at Christians is because they support the legitimization of behavior manipulation through religion, and help to spread it worldwide.”
No they don’t!! Don’t confuse the institution which is a perversion of Christianity with those who stay away from power and spotlight with no thought for themselves. The Church of Rome which you so conveniently rely upon for your examples of “christian” horrors is at its core no different than atheists like you in their despizing of others’ belief, only those who started the Church of Rome were smart enough, to transfrom their paganism into “christianity” in order to maintain their power. The most tolerant men who ever held power were protestants who started the United States in the belief that religion must be freely chosen and that even religion’s purity depended on it not being forced.
3. “The basic manipulation, brainwashing, and grand after-life promises — be they family reunions in heaven or 70 virgins from Allah — are very simple tools of control, which only work on very simple people. And by simple I mean fucking spectacularly stupid.”
Don’t try undoing the clear attempt at lumping terrorists with christians. You made no attempt to distinguish between christians who merely, and quite naturally, state their beliefs with those who push it on others. You made no attempt to distinguish those like the captors who make mistakes in their proselytizing with those who carefully abide by society’s rules and norms while adhereing to their Christian desire to share their experience. You insisted on lumping them all together and denigrating them together. Why? because their faith is somehow stupid while your’s, a faith that spontaneous combustion of an ordered universe was completely accidental and without impetus is an brilliant marvel of modern science.
4. “by supporting the process of producing ignorant fools who are merely annoying in their behavior and who draw their inspiration from divine sources, you also make it much, much easier for those with far more sinister motivations to recruit and produce murderous, ignorant fools whose behavior does not simply annoy, but that destroys human life on a large scale while drawing inspiration from their own divine source.”
It’s a common eagerness to say that the worst crimes committed have been by christians. Utterly and completely false, too. You want to criticize the instituation, fine. Disappointing that you can’t distinguish between that and the individual. But all the murders and wars that were done in the name of God were done by people using Christianity only to serve their own purposes in exactly the same way that Stalin and Mao murdered millions to serve theirs. No Christian ever attempted to force another to his belief. That very act would be contradictory to the nature of faith. The most intolerant people in all the world have been those who used Christianity to fulfill their craving for power and attention and those who use atheism to fulfill their craving for attention. Guess that’s one thing you have common with all those baaaaaad christians.
“Don’t confuse the institution which is a perversion of Christianity with those who stay away from power and spotlight with no thought for themselves. The Church of Rome which you so conveniently rely upon for your examples of “christian” horrors is at its core no different than atheists like you in their despizing of others’ belief, only those who started the Church of Rome were smart enough, to transfrom their paganism into “christianity” in order to maintain their power.”
Catholicsm is a “perversion of Christianity”? You’re a bigot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....t_scandals
Michael, as to wy God would allow bad things period, let alone creatures like us, Jonathon Edwards, one of the first presidents of Princeton offered this:
“it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great, as we have elsewhere shown. We little consider how much the sense of good is heightened by the sense of evil, both moral and natural. And as it is necessary that there should be evil, because the display of the glory of God could not but be imperfect and incomplete without it, so evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature.”
So don’t ever let someone tell you God allows bad things to happen but doesn’t decree them, to include sin. He absolutely does decree it and does right in doing so.
#132. I didn’t say Catholicism, I said the Church of Rome. One is the universal church, the other is the political construct of the 4th century. And yes it is a perversion, and no, believing so does not make one a bigot which implies wanting to prevent that group from behaving as they believe. Stating my disagreement isn’t the same as trying to prevent them from their belief. Bigot is a word far to casually used and little understood.
Further, singling out the COR was a specific response to IHBB’s specific anecdote of priests fondling children which must be a characteristic of all Christians. You can put each of those in your link in with the COR leaders, Stalin, Mao and IHBB as those whose intolerance is only matched by their hypocrisy.
Church of Rome = Roman Catholic Church
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Your flavor of christianity is better than theirs? Sounds like the sunni versus the shiites.
Now for the actual definition Catholic: the Universal Church.
Roman Catholic Church = the name the Church of Rome gave themselves which other denominations do not acknowledge the veracity of.
So, republicans are bigotted against democrats, one-house parliaments’ constituents are bigotted against two-house and lions are bigotted against sheep. That’s great. I thought I saw the word “intolerance” in you definition. Yup, I did. Disagreeing and calling something wrong doesn’t qualify as intolerance. Taking the step to force compliance would, but that hasn’t been done here. Surely, if your standard of bigotry were applied evenly you would have long before leveled the charge at IHBB of “bigotry” towards the religious but why be consistent when you agree with selective forms of “bigotry?”
“Sonagi, the lord our father says “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Your agreement with chips that I do nothing but denigrate others has been classified as a judgment by the lord.
Do not further anger the almighty, or he shall smite you, and if that occurs, you shall be smoten.”
I am not Christian, but I’m impressed by your use of the word “smoten.”
“#122. I wouldn’t comment if he made a sarcastic remark about someone else’s sister but if it was about mine I would. The more personal a remark the more likely a response. Is that strange to you? Are you suggesting then that my charge was correct?”
Yes, it is. Someone else’s sister still a human being. The Golden Rule “Do unto others” is a universal teaching with equivalents in many religions and languages. Your angry response to IHBB’s mockery of Christians is akin to gyopo reactions to IHBB’s mockery of Korean nationalism.
Personally, I find mockery of others’ religious beliefs in poor taste. It’s okay to disagree or express disbelief but not to ridicule. Arguing with IHBB is futile because he doesn’t give a shit about offending others.
Rev. Robert Jermain Thomas came to Korea in 1866 and was killed by Korean soldiers.
“He also carefully and intensely studied the Korean language for the express purpose of communicating the love of God to the Korean people. He was also a man acquainted with grief, having experienced the death of his wife. Even Professor Han’s accounts convey the holy zeal of Thomas to hand out Bibles.”
http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/sherman3.htm
What seems so stupid and insinificant can change a country forever. Korea has over 15 million christians, partly thanks to Rev. Thomas.
I hope these young people change Afganistan. What America can not do (after all, one country cannot do it all), Korean Christians may do it.
NY Times:
The 23 Koreans belong to the “Saemmul Church” in Bundang, a city on the outskirts of the South Korean capital, Seoul.
Most of them are in their 20s and 30s and include nurses and English teachers. South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun said on Saturday the Koreans were providing only free medical or educational services with no missionary intentions.
The Koreans are the biggest group of foreigners kidnapped so far in the Taliban campaign to oust the Western-backed government and force out foreign troops.
Tearful relatives prayed for their safe release at their church on Sunday.
“My kids went to the war-ravaged country to do volunteer work, carrying love,” said Seo Jung-bae, 57, whose son and daughter were both taken hostage. “I feel like chopping off my foot for letting you go. I hope you will return to us and the country without a single hair damaged.”
The area south of Kabul where the Germans and Koreans were seized this week has seen a marked escalation of violence in the last month as Taliban militants have moved in from the south.
Residents say government troops only hold the major towns and much of the countryside is beyond their control.
This article says the Talibans and the hostages are surrounded by Afghan government troops who are waiting to go in to rescue them. The more I think about this, the more I’m convinced the 23 are going to cause more lives lost, instead of saving lives. Interesting comment section here.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....ional/home
http://gall.dcinside.com/list......;no=200833
Why should others dare their lives to save the caught who were unbelievably apathetic and indifferent to others, and were arrogant, condescending.
Because jesus love them.
Then I regret to inform you that your post-life itinerary will include burning in hell. Please dress accordingly.
Is there any belief (religious or otherwise) that does merit mockery? Or are you just opposed to mocking anything, period, because you think all beliefs of any kind should be respected?
No one and nothing is above ridicule. Claiming sacred cow status is the first sign of something inherently indefensible. Which is precisely why sacred cows should be ridiculed vigorously.
I will never understand why religion is given an exemption from criticism from so many. There is as much evidence of the existence of the alien abductors of the “cult” (cult meaning small number of believers, religion meaning large number of believers) of Raelians as there is of a Christian god, but I don’t know anyone that has a problem ridiculing those who commit mass suicide as ignorant fools because they think a space ship is going to rescue them from earth and bring them to a planet far away. What’s the difference between Raelians and Christians besides the number of believers and the length of belief?
This is a half-truth wrapped in a half-lie. You’re right that I don’t care about offending others, but arguing with me is not futile. The easy solution of course, is to quit allowing yourself to be offended. It really is that easy.
I could give two shits if chips or the pope tell me I’m going to hell. I don’t care because I don’t believe a word they say, so there’s no reason for me to take offense. I just laugh it off, make jokes, and mock because I’m not worried in the least that they are right.
So why is it the opposite is rarely true? If I make fun of their religion, why should they care what a non-believer thinks? Why should they be offended unless they give any credence to what I’m saying? To a true believer, someone saying that god is imaginary should be so outrageous and ridiculous that it shouldn’t even merit a second thought. But it does. I offend them because they are afraid what I’m saying might be true. Convincing people to suspend all rational thought and live their lives on “faith” is a tough sell, so anyone declaring skepticism is threatened with hellfire. They are so afraid that they have to threaten eternal punishment if I persist in my belief.
So why the threats? I would never even consider threatening a believer for their belief. Mockery, yes. Insults, yes. Laughter, lots of it. But there’s no reason to threaten someone that you believe is ignorant.
Unless of course, you know you’re selling an empty shell and packaging it as full.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....outh_Korea
“According to 2006 statistics compiled by the South Korean government, about 34.3% of citizens profess to follow no particular religion. Christians account for 14% of the population and Buddhists 50.7%.”
These people are fools and have absolutely no business being in Afghanistan. With 86% of Koreans being non-Christians they have a lifetime of spreading the good lord’s word right here in South Korea.
What the hell… did they think be invited in for a spot of tea?
Whatever happens God will win.
1) If the abductees are released : Korean churches will celebrate and God’s name will be praised.
2) If they are dead: An unprecedented revivals will break out in Korean churches. Many will repent their lukewarm faith. Many will give their entire life savings to churche. More people will volunteer. All church members will feel so worthless compared to these young martyrs.
Korean churches have been praying in this centennial of “PyengYang revival”. God is answering the prayers of Korean Christians.
Yes, sadly the will return (dead or alive) as heroes instead of what they actually are…fools.
#82.
Are you so sure of that? The Crusades took place over a period of 200 years. As high as 100 000 Huguenots were killed during St Bart’s Massacre. The prosecution of the Cathars and Templars (thousands were murdered, including women and children) gave the Catholic church a great deal of its riches. The Inquisition only lasted for a short time? Catholics began executing people for being heretics in 385. ‘Inquistions’ occurred until the 19th century. Scientists, midwives, political enemies of the Pope, mid-wives, you name it. They’ve all been persecuted by the church. As a matter of fact, the ‘Holy Office of the Inquisition ‘ still exists to this day, it’s just been renamed the ‘Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith’.
Muslim extremism and fundamentalism is a problem? What about Christian fundamentalism?
IHBB, I never threatened you with Hell. I don’t even believe in hellfire and never intimated such so why interpret as threatening. I only said you’ll get what you want. If gods not there, u win. If He is then you don’t have to be burdened with Him for eternity, either way exactly you you want. Where’s the threat in that?
As for this nugget: “To a true believer, someone saying that god is imaginary should be so outrageous and ridiculous that it shouldn’t even merit a second thought. But it does. I offend them because they are afraid what I’m saying might be true.” You have just used logic that is fitting for my use not yours. What do I have to fear if I’m wrong. oops. oh well…
The “second thought” comes from the pensiveness that the intolerance you breed makes it’s way to legislation and establishes Secularism as the state church where I have no right to say what I believe in public. That makes one pause and creates a very good reason to speak out against your intolerance. I do view people like you as a threat to my religious freedom while I have done nothing in stating my belief to hinder your yours. Call it projection, call it whatever you want, your diatribe warrants an angry response.
Further, and most importantly, no one here has tried to convince you of being wrong as an athiest. I haven’t. Not my job. I don’t saved anyone and never will. If there is a God I’ll leave that to Him…meanwhile I just say what I believe, considering that it’s pretty important to me. The only thing being asked of you is to distinguish between individuals, some of whom manipulate christianity and others of whom actually try to follow it.
So if you think a drinking, smoking, fornicating, non-church going dude must be a Jesus freak I can’t imagine what you must think of a person who tries to genuinely tries to portray qualities of kindness, meekness, gentleness. Raving lunatics, all of them.
How many times are Koreans captured off the coast of Somalia, or the the Delta of Nigeria trying to make money or further their career. (in fact some of my co-workers are in Nigeria right now) and yet when they are captured are they as hated as those who are captured for humanitarian work?
Oh no they did this for glory huh? But they aren’t the ones plastering their pictures up all over the internet for others to rile and spew hatred at, thats done by the papers, and gleefully linked to by you guys.
What are these people doing that is so damn inconvenient to others? So some diplomat stewing in his government welfare paycheck has to actually do some leg work and make phone calls, all to no avail? What a poor sod he is, I wonder how many poor he’s fed, or sick he’s healed?! That goes for t he lot of you. What have you done thats so great for the world that you get to look down on these people?! You are the sick ones.
Its not like anyone else here is trying to make a difference like, oh, I don’t know, trying to run a hospital on a donation budget in a third world country with an under trained staff.
Robert, #92: WTF? You’re always doing the right things playing the middle ground when people go too far in criticizing Koreans, but here, you won’t even concede an ounce of respect for these people who knowingly gave everything, because on top of giving up their safe life, cushy homes and melodramatic existence here in Korea, in order to make the world a better place failed to go through an extra level of administrative BS in signing a statement of non intervention on their behalf?
#114(dda): one eye in the land of the blind is what again? You make do with what you have, if you can’t find 23 nurses use one to train 22 others who are willing to go. It’s what we did in the army.
From Luke23:
Mark 15:
(meant to put this in front of those quotes, they wren’t directed at DDA)
Reading so many here mocking others at the time of their is somewhat familiar, apparently this sort of thing has been happening to Christians for some time…
and finally….
#131 (MrChips): WTF?!?!? Stop eating your own. If you must know I am (Roman) Catholic. Take a good look at where I am standing, who I am defending, and figure out who is on whose side. You and I need to have a talk, but not here and not now.
“Further, singling out the COR was a specific response to IHBB’s specific anecdote of priests fondling children which must be a characteristic of all Christians. “
Molesting kids ain’t just a Catholic priest thing. Protestant ministers do, too, even married ones. Google “minister arrested child sexual” for pages of results.
“This is a half-truth wrapped in a half-lie. You’re right that I don’t care about offending others, but arguing with me is not futile. The easy solution of course, is to quit allowing yourself to be offended. It really is that easy.”
Indeed, Mr. Chips’ indignant responses spawn further ridicule. That is why I say arguing is futile.
“According to 2006 statistics compiled by the South Korean government, about 34.3% of citizens profess to follow no particular religion. Christians account for 14% of the population and Buddhists 50.7%.”
There’s definitely something wrong with that stat. There’s no way 50% of total S.Koreans are Buddhists. I think they meant 50% of the religious population are Buddhists. while 50% of all Koreans are non-religious. I think this figure is closer to fact:
Christian 26.3% (Protestant 19.7%, Roman Catholic 6.6%), Buddhist 23.2%, other or unknown 1.3%, none 49.3%
Somguyinkorea (#148): You’re quite right. The Crusades and the Inquisitions were no trifling matters. They were perpetrated at the hands of a thoroughly corrupt institution that has historically substituted their own manmade precepts for the plain teaching of the Bible. The Protestant Reformation happened as a reaction to the depravity of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church. You may want to keep in mind, however, how many millions of people died in the 20th century alone at the hands of atheist fundamentalists: Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.
And Michael (#132): Televangelists are an embarrassment. They are, for the most part, false teachers of a false gospel. Like so many Catholic church leaders through history, they perverted the Word of God for their own selfish, twisted motives. You won’t get any disagreement from me.
For all those who think that only a deluded nut would be a Christian, I was raised as an atheist. I was raised to believe that there is no God. On top of which, my mother is Jewish, and I knew full well what some so-called “Christians” had done to Jews through history (including in the Inquisition). In my 20s and early 30s, I was a skeptical rationalist. I scoffed at evangelical Christians. I thought those who called themselves born again Christians were all fakes and phonies. I’ve read the modern Biblical criticism, positing that the Bible is nothing to do with divine inspiration. For most of my life, I accepted that Jesus was an enlightened spiritual teacher and nothing more, and certainly not the Son of God. Virgin birth? Forget it! Bodily resurrection? C’mon—it’s a fairy tale! I was biggest of all scoffers. And with my post-secondary science education and my critical and analytical way of thinking, I had good reason to be.
But that all changed when God led me to a church that actually teaches what the Bible says, not what Catholics are televangelists or whoever else say it says. I haven’t suspended my intelligence, and no one’s brainwashed me. I’m just as critical now of those who would use the Christian faith to delude and deceive, as I was naively skeptical of them before.
I’m sure my words have not resonated with anyone, but Christians—true Christians, who have not tried to impose their belief system by the sword or deception—have been used to that for 2000 years, since the first doubters scoffed at Jesus and his followers in their own lifetimes.
Captbbq: Amen. Even the very first Jews who confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord and Son of God 2000 years ago had to deal with sneering, scoffing skepticism from Roman officials, Jewish religious leaders, and Athenian humanists. It’s nothing new.
“The “second thought” comes from the pensiveness that the intolerance you breed makes it’s way to legislation and establishes Secularism as the state church where I have no right to say what I believe in public. That makes one pause and creates a very good reason to speak out against your intolerance. I do view people like you as a threat to my religious freedom while I have done nothing in stating my belief to hinder your yours. Call it projection, call it whatever you want, your diatribe warrants an angry response.”
I call it a fallacy of presumption and irrelevant appeal. IHBB isn’t challenging your freedom of speech. His mockery shows religious intolerance, but it does not infringe on your right to say what you believe in public. You keep replying, don’t you? This is a blog, not a classroom or an office. A stranger posting sacreligious comments on a blog poses absolutely no threat to your religious freedom.
Oh good grief. A day later, I’m now, says YoungRocco2, who seems to think he knows me, a “hypocrite” (comment #56), and there’s a hundred comments in between that one and my response. Would be nice if I could thread this comment above, but whatever…
YoungRocco2 wrote:
Wow! Which earlier posts? Did you google all my old comments on the Marmot’s? Or are you talking about my own site? How long has it been since I wrote those comments? I’ve never even heard of you, and you seem to think you know who I am, and how I think, to boot!
It seems you perhaps don’t grasp the fine and important differences between
patriotism (loving your country and believing that loving your country can mean some sacrifices for its sake, as well as the right to celebrate when your country occasionally shines),
nationalism (believing that loving your country means you have a duty to:
declare your country or things from your country the best in the world at every random opportunity that arises
hating some or all other countries and their individual citizens, either because their country is bigger or smaller, richer or poorer, more or less powerful, than your country is or was in the past, or because of what those other people’s grandparents and great-grandparents did either to harm your grandparents and great-grandparents (or to liberate them from someone else’s grandparents’ and great-grandparents’ country’s army)
express shock and outrage when anyone criticizes (let alone hates) your country, for any reason whatsoever
throwing a tantrum at anyone or any country or organization that fails to agree about random statements of your country’s superiority, or comply with your demands to do so
occasionally froth at the mouth, obsess about obscure Olympic events, and choreograph highly profitable national frenzies about minor border disputes
of course hating America for being the biggest kid on the block
compassion (caring about other people, whether they are nearby or far away, and trying to help them in their situation as best you can given your own circumstances), and
rudeness (visiting someone else’s country in order to tell them their religion is wrong and then trying to cram your own down their throats, by, say, singing Christian songs in their places of worship.)
You continue:
Ha. Ha ha. Might I add that ad hominem attacks by themselves, are also rude, but even worse, when they’re made based on comments made elsewhere, in completely different contexts, about different topics, which may or may not even have been read, and may or may not pertain to the conversation at hand, don’t really lend any merit to your own argument?
And might I add that a person sometimes changes his mind about things, about a place, about a culture, due to his experiences? As I haven’t commented here much in ages, I have to wonder what long-ago comment you’re holding me to, and I have to wonder if you have failed to grow and learn and change since that time. When someone changes his mind in a way we like, we admire his “development,” but when we disagree with whatever argument he’s now making, we pull out the handy word “hypocrite” and bash him with it. In any case, it’s a personal bash, based on your vague and probably ill-formed opinion of me as seen in some comments I made on a blog.
In other words, don’t flatter yourself: you don’t know me well enough to know whether I’m a hypocrite or not.
You’re throwing a “highly probable” in there to support a guess; as such, it’s worth very little. Maybe if some evidence comes out that they weren’t there primarily for Christian purposes, that they were skilled nurses who were working with doctors in Afghanistan, I might be a touch more sympathetic. What I’ve been told (by my fiancé who is tracking the story with some interest at the moment) is that there was one nurse in the group, period. Some of the group, on a previous visit to Afghanistan, had cooperated with a group of medical volunteers from a hospital in Anyang, and on that occasion, one of the individuals who is now a hostage (and who has a cyworld page here, though it’s currently down — more outraged netizen traffic abuse blockage, apparently, but there’s a copy of one post here, and I’ll host some screencaps from the minihompi for curious readers who may not have seen them yet, here) claimed that they “also” participated in medical aid — meaning that medical work was NOT the primary purpose of the visit.
And anyway, there are tons of countries out there who need medical help. Plenty of them don’t have roving bands of terrorists who specifically want to catch themselves Koreans to use as bargaining chips against their own government or the Korean government. Why didn’t the “nurses” go to Mozambique? Or Congo? Hell, anywhere in Africa, and lots of places in rural India, are both short of medical care workers and are mostly non-Christian.
The fact is, it’s known that large numbers of Koreans have been for a long time attempting to gain access to Afghanistan. It’s known that they are wanting to go there mainly to proselytize. It’s hard to imagine any non-evangelical Christian who would go to Afghanistan illegally, against the advice of their own government and the local government, simply to work as a nurse, when so many other countries are in need of the same aid. It’s also hard for me to swallow the claim that they’re there primarily for medical aid work after having heard translations of some of the postings on the cyworld page cited above.
Besides which, and to return back to the focus of these individual’s trip as well as the earlier topic of “rudeness,” these people not only happily posed in front of signs warning them not to go there, but they also visited a mosque and, after complimenting the guardsman on its beauty, noticing his pride in the place, and then asking a guard permission to sing, they started singing Christian worship songs there. (“It sounded so beautiful, like music from heaven,” was the description the somewhat witless blogger-turned-hostage wrote at the time.) They also visited the tomb of someone they were told was an important Islamic leader, so they decided to have a worship service to God there. I’m sorry, but how do you think the members of their home church in Korea would react if a group of Muslim missionaries entered their church, complimented its beauty, and started kneeling on the floor and singing prayers to Allah there?
(Considering the attitude of some towards other religions — see the video clip I’ll append to the end of this post — I’d be surprised if they were treated with anything like the forebearance of the Muslim guard, who seems to have let them finish the song unaccosted.)
Back to YoungRocco2’s snipe:
Why thank you, but your bulletpointed “corrections” to my erroneous reasoning are themselves somewhat specious. I shall outline why I think so below:
If you mean this site, I can’t; it’s down. It was probably overloaded by Korean netizens deluging the page with complaints about their stupidity for sending 18 of their people to Afghanistan to provide the Taliban with pawns.
I will repeat my question, though, and this time, seriously: has anyone seen any Protestant Christian organization in Korea that has established something on the scale of 꽃동네 for the physically and mentally handicapped (in other words, the most profoundly underpriviledged class in this society)? I mean, the Catholics are a tiny minority here, so there should, by all rights, be five or ten large-scale, Korea-wide, Protestant-funded, nonprofit organizations helping the handicapped, going by proportions anyway. Hell, how about the handicapped and the abandoned elderly? I’ll even throw in battered women. Can anyone scare up ten such groups? Five? Because I know several people who refuse to donate to Protestant groups because they’d prefer the money is actually used for charity, not for funding some preacher’s daughter’s year of overseas study.
It doesn’t? I’m sorry, but if it’s harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle — if a man (or woman) cannot have two masters — if one is suppose to leave levae behind everyone, his friends and brothers and sisters and even his father and mother to follow Jesus, then… I mean, it seems to me Christianity, at it’s core, discourages glory-seeking because it’s only human nature becomes an end in itself.
Worse, and more worrying, is the way glory-seeking on the part of church administrators allows them to organize “missions,” in violation of local laws, in violation of their own government’s express requests and advice, and in violation of all good sense.
I’ll only briefly reiterate the anecdote of a friend whose close friend wanted to change churches. Her father was a minister in a big, lucrative church in her home town, but she was studying a rigorous course in another city, and did not want to take the several-hours-each-way bus ride home every Sunday for church. She told her father and he immediately castigated her for giving in to temptation and sin, for allowing the devil to tempt her into humiliating her father and harming the church in this way.
The point being that glory-seeking (and the lucrative business that religion has long been worldwide, and that Christianity has become in Korea) becomes the god that some worship with much more devotion and vigor than the god who told them that too much money will distract them from what’s important.
Percentage-wise, so do many other countries where it’s not illegal to preach the Gospel, and which are wholly without roving bands of terrorists who want to use Korean Christians as bargaining chips. It makes more sense for missionaries to go to those places because there are lots of people to preach to there, who actually might listen, convert, and join in an international Christian effort to free whichever oppressive country outlaws the preaching of other religions by international pressure.
Or, should those Christian missionaries go to such a place, they should go knowing that they may die, and only after telling their families, and submitting documentation to the government, that they wish for the government to refuse to cooperate in any hostage negotiations. If you’re going to go play Early Church in a land where they still kill you for being aa Christian, then you should bloody well be prepared to be martyred for it, and no government should have to be put in a position where it has to go beg for your release.
Careful: don’t mistake my argument for the strawman you’d prefer because it is easier to knock down. I don’t think Korea needs to be a utopia before people go abroad to aid others. But Rocco, for many, many people, this country is so far from utopia that your comment is laughable. I’ve yet to see the Protestant churches here do anything major with their political clout in terms of addressing that systemically, and charity, we all know by now, can only achieve so much — a limited amount. Yet what do the Protestant Christians use their political clout for? I see lots of development going on now, but it’s mostly land development aimed at profits for the already-rich. As one Korean I know put it, “We hear Protestants talk about love and helping one another, but we see them only help other people in their same church.” Doubtless that’s not true of all Protestant churches in Korea, but on a political level, the clout seems to be being spent somewhere other than to help those who need it most.
And seriously, the Bible is crammed full of remonstrations against poverty, about how it must be fought, opposed, and reduced as much as possible. Over and over it’s stated, to the point where anyone who misses that Biblical duty is, one can only assume, acting in poor faith or ignorance. (The political agenda of the Religious Right in America comes to mind, but so does the wealth of many Christian groups, including a number of Protestant churches I’ve seen in Korea.) Hell, there are more comments about poverty than there are about the call to evangelism!
One last link, because it’s fun… er, horrifying, here, courtesy of my fiancé, here.
The first half of the video linked above is Lee Myung Bak, ex-mayor of Seoul, apparently talking Christian-like about Busan, but the part I’m directing your attention to is the second half is a group of young Christian fanatics preaching Jesus’ message of loving compassion and forgiveness and against self-righteousness praying for the destruction of Buddhist temples in and around Busan. Literally the destruction of those temples! I don’t know about others’ definition of “helping others” or “Christian behaviour” but it hardly fits my sense of those words. I know that not once during my Catholic upbringing was I called on to pray for the destruction of anything… not even the Soviet Union, which scared the bejeezus out of us, let alone the places of worship of people who didn’t happen to belong to our particular religion.
Right, I’ve spent enough time on this. I’ll probably be ignoring further snipes because, frankly, I’m too busy to bother arguing with someone who, from the outset, has decided that I’m a hypocrite. I don’t pretend to be an expert on this subject. If there’s demonstrable evidence on any point I’m mistaken on, I’d love to be made aware of it. I don’t think I’ll waste my time on the rest.
“Then I regret to inform you that your post-life itinerary will include burning in hell. Please dress accordingly.”
What do you suggest?
“Is there any belief (religious or otherwise) that does merit mockery? Or are you just opposed to mocking anything, period, because you think all beliefs of any kind should be respected?”
Belief in a diety or dieties is far more profound, meaningful, and motivating than earthly beliefs like fan death. That is why I do not make fun of others’ religious beliefs, but other belief systems like science, history, and citizenship are fair game. My words are a reflection of me, and your words are a reflection of you.
“Claiming sacred cow status is the first sign of something inherently indefensible. Which is precisely why sacred cows should be ridiculed vigorously.”
Indeed. Faith is not something that can or need be defended. That’s why arguing is futile. So is ridicule. What have you achieved by ridiculing Christians? Have you made anyone rethink their beliefs? Did you even make anyone laugh? Feel free to express yourself, brother, but remember there’s a real human being behind every username.
“I offend them because they are afraid what I’m saying might be true. “
No, you offend them because you mock beliefs they hold to be precious.
I clearly mentioned the priests (muckety mucks) and didn’t even come close to insinuating that all Christians were kiddie-diddlers. The offending priests are responsible for their actions, the hierarchy of the church is responsible for covering it up for decades when they knew the extent of the problem and just shuffled pedophiles around instead of having them arrested, but the flock are mostly innocent victims. Their only crime is continuing to support a hierarchy that displayed such an incomprehensible lack of judgment at the expense of their own kids.
And bravo to you for then lumping me in with pedophile priests. That really takes massive balls to say that me criticizing pedophiles and the bishops that covered for them, actually makes me as bad as the pedophiles. Un. Real. And I thought the Bin Laden, Mao, and Stalin comparisons were the lowest you could go. Why not Hitler? Aren’t I good enough to be compared to the ultimate horror? Doesn’t criticizing religion make me equivalent to the worst human in history, because you’re half an inch from that, unless you think Stalin takes that title.
If you’re not threatening hell, why would I care? What is there for me to care about unless I’m in for some hellfire? Are you saying I would care about the lack of toiletries in heaven? Of course not, you’re saying I would care about being on the punishment end of god’s lightning bolts, and saying otherwise just makes you look ridiculous.
And what does come with that? A free subscription to Sports Illustrated? Is that what’s “unfortunate?” If you’re going to threaten hell to non-believers, at least don’t be a pussy and pretend like you’re not. Most jesus freaks have at least that decency.
#152, cm,
I think 50% of South Korea is indeed Buddhist.
Not only Buddhist but also Confucious ancestor worship, and time to time with a mix of shaman fortune telling, rites, etc.
50% is correct.
Except, women go to temples, usually, not men.
Women go to temples to pray, etc for the well being of their husbands and kids. Kids, men, don’t go. Kids may follow their moms and go.
That’s the case of my friend. He says he’s Buddhist.
How often does he go to a Buddhist temple?
Maybe 5 times a year. And that would be extraordinarily a lot.
Sometimes he used to follow his mom to the temple.
Where do Koreans go for funeral rites?
About half would call for a Buddhist temple and monk. After all, they do talk about geuk-rak, jun-seang.
And of course, because it jives so well, you can do jae-sa at home, or jae-sa at a Buddhist temple.
Nowadays, Christians in Korea say they do Jae-sa.
Which is very odd, because Kim Dae Gun and the Christian Catholics were martyred for refusing this very act.
Jae-sa, bowing in front of Buddha, shaman fortune telling, simply doesn’t jive with Christian faith.
If we are talking about true Christians who have no question of or doubts at the moment of death.
I believe the Korean govt’s poll.
“You can put each of those in your link in with the COR leaders, Stalin, Mao and IHBB as those whose intolerance is only matched by their hypocrisy.”
Are you responsible for the deaths of millions of people, IHBB? No wonder Chips is so outraged. And I thought you were merely irreverant.
here’s a Korean with an admirable mindset.
http://agoraplaza.media.daum.n.....oardNo=294
Brendon: Come now, Brendon. No need to swear. Act with a little more aplomb now will you?
Robert: Wouldn’t you call rule under the the Taliban odious? The regions to which the missionaries were travelling still have heavy Taliban influence.
BumfromKorea: You fail to comprehend. Again, the missionaries were there offering both medical care AND the word of God. This is why your analogy is flawed.
Homemakers. Hmmm, don’t you feel at least partly ashamed that a Korean homemaker has bigger cajones than you?
Anyways, you forget to keep in mind that help is help. While most of these missionaries may not have been professionals, they still could have received training to enable them to help individuals recover. The point is that they are there on the ground. I mean, they can do more to help Afghan war victims if they are actually in Afghanistan, as opposed to… I don’t know…whining and griping on a blog.
Michael: And what would you suggest, Michael? Perhaps you believe Christians should only proselytize in Beverly Hills or rural Montana? Howabout suburban Palo Alto? You know, places where there is no risk.
And Micheal, you gave me the biggest laugh I’ve had in a long time…sorry to burst your bubble, but you’ve just said the silliest line of the night: “I’m an agnostic, but I understand the tenets of Christianity well.” Micheal, you can’t understand the tenets of the bible well without being a believer. The biggest tenet of the bible is faith in Christ. Otherwise known as acknowledging the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior. If you read the bible, and don’t have faith…then you…just…don’t…get it! If you don’t understand faith, then you can’t “get” the bible.
But Micheal, you can’t be serious when you call these missionaries “irresponsible” for facing danger. The Bible itself says that followers of Christ must carry their crosses just as Jesus did. Jesus himself lost his life so that others may believe–and live! A true follower of Christ recognizes danger, but, unlike you, puts cowardice aside to follow a higher calling and emulate Christ…
Michael, every kid learns about sacrifice in Sunday School. This is Bible 101, boy. You obviously don’t know the bible as well you think you do.
But I ain’t mad at ya. Give me your email, and I’ll invite you to bible study. Together we’ll learn about Christ.
“And when the clouds don’t feed you, shelter you, or give you a job”
–Blueballs
I have a job, blueballs, which sadly, is more than you can say.
@Robert(Post 92): Your idea is interesting, but I don’t think it’s feasible. No government should willingly forswear its obligation to protect its citizens.
Blueballs(101): You’re contradicting yourself. Earlier you implied that these missionaries did not know what they were getting into, now you turnaround and claim that they knew what they were getting into, but still shouldn’t have done what they did!
Liars always confuse themselves.
Anyways.
Blueballs, you still fail to see the point. No one is saying that going to Afghanistan was not risky. No one is saying that these missionaries probably would not have been safer at home…
You don’t understand because you’re a coward. You see, most cowards can’t see anything past their own comfort. A coward is afraid to do anything outside his comfort level, and rarely risks anything for what he belives in–assuming, of course, that he believes in anything at all.
The problem is that you label any behavior that involves stepping outside of your comfort zone illogical. The difference between these missionaries and yourself, is that they actually believe in something, and are willing to put their very lives at risk in order to teach words that have guided and comforted men and women for thousands of years. These people were willing to put their lives on the line for the sake of something more valuable than their lives. A coward could not possibly hope to understand what they did; a coward cannot conceive of anything more valuable than his own personal well-being.
What most of the posters on this board are trying to say is that these people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. These people have undertaken a noble cause, and deserve the full and help cooperation of their country’s government. They’ve done something noble because they looked past themselves.
BTW, Blueballs, my cousin is looking for part time help at his rib shack…
Don’t worry, I already filled out an application for you.
There just went thirty minutes of my life that I’ll never get back.
“What most of the posters on this board are trying to say is that these people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. These people have undertaken a noble cause, and deserve the full and help cooperation of their country’s government. They’ve done something noble because they looked past themselves. “
Not so fast, Rocco. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. These good-hearted folks may end up being ransomed for dangerous Taliban prisoners or for money that will be used to fund future Taliban attacks against the very people these missionaries sought to help.
“Micheal, you can’t understand the tenets of the bible well without being a believer.”
I don’t think that’s true, youngrocco. Many people – including a former priest I know – have a very strong understanding of the tenets of the bible, yet don’t have faith, no longer retain their faith, etc. You can understand a concept, an ideology, a philosophy, etc. without being sold on it.
“And what does come with that? A free subscription to Sports Illustrated? Is that what’s “unfortunate?” If you’re going to threaten hell to non-believers, at least don’t be a pussy and pretend like you’re not. Most jesus freaks have at least that decency.”
(For the point of the argument, let’s assume that there is a God.)
I’d say that making such threats is a sign of great arrogance. Who are they to claim that they have any say on His plans? They can try to quote the Bible all they want to back their claims, but in the end that is just their interpretations of the scripture.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
2 Peter 1:20
globalvillageidiot,
For some, Christianity is not embracing a concept or a set of rules.
It is an encounter. The encounter with none other than Jesus himself. We call those, who have gone through this life-changing experience, born-again Christians.
http://www.vop.com/previous_br.....99376.html
“For the record, I am not a “Christian”. I belong to no church “
Why the quotation marks, Brendon? Since you read the Bible, you know a Christian is defined by what he believes, not by where he prays. If you believe in salvation through Christ, you’re a Christian. If you don’t, you’re not. If you’re not sure, I’d still say you are. Even Jesus went through a period of doubt during his forty days in the desert.
“Even Jesus went through a period of doubt…”
That’s because he didn’t understand the tenets of the Bible well.
You guys need to stop debating regarding religions. There have been countless debates on religions for at least thousands of years, and you guys are adding this thread to them. Debates on religions will last as long as human beings exist. Language in religions is based on beliefs and complicated premises, which are, therefore, EXTREMELY DIFFICULT or IMPOSSIBLE to be communicated. Maybe you want to discuss any practical solutions for this kidnapping.
#105, Hwarang makes sense on possible solution, Seoul will most likely adopt.
If they indeed broke the law, one solution would be to put them in jail where they accordingly belong. Of course this may require that the Korean government stop lying and trying to convince the world these people were medical professionals there for humanitarian reasons.
How can we mere humans even begin to pretend we can communicate with a being so far above us on the food chain? Can an amoeba understand what we try to communicate to it? The people of the biblical days were stymied by something magical(if anything happened at all) and wrote shit down to try to explain it in their terms.If the word of god is so wonderful,why haven’t we reached critical mass(in faith/belief) and triggered another round of talks? Could it be that the population on earth back then misinterpreted something and the One True Faith-ism is not entirely correct?
This thread is nothing if very revealing.
Rocco ought to be proud. Given his inability to argue the issue and counter the points I’ve made, his repertoire now includes dreaming that I’m a jobless drifter sitting in mom’s basement, begging him for a job. Because if only that were true, then all my arguments would be void and null in his simple little peabrain. You can smell the desperation through the screen. And wasn’t your last post directed at me filled with fantasies about me being an english teacher (despite the fact I’ve never taught) and homeless?
Such a pity that your only hope for making a point is by manufacturing fantasies about your adversary in order to imagine him below you in the hierarchy, thereby making you right. But then, you’re Korean, so falling back on that kind of bullshit must be second nature. It’s laughable, douchebag.
Then again, Mrchips thinks he’s making points by comparing me to mass murderers, dictators, and pedophiles, so you can see the parallels between this thread’s two standout intellectual powerhouses. Both so void of argument and desperate to believe they’re right that their only recourse is to portray me as the greatest mass murderer in history, or a homeless bum. You two halfwits really do need to get together and coordinate your fantasies. After all, Stalin didn’t teach English and live in his mom’s basement.
“Korean government stop lying and trying to convince the world these people were medical professionals there for humanitarian reasons.”
Is it such a bad lie (if we presume that they really are lying)? What are they supposed to do, tell the world and the Muslims that those women were indeed missionaries out to convert the heathen Muslims? Yeah, that would do a lot of good. It almost sound like you really want those bitches raped and beheaded.
Blueballs: Your slip is showing. You’re not making any points. All you’re doing is spewing nonsense and negativity.
The only thing you’ve said that even vaguely resembles a point is that its stupid for people to put their lives at risk, I countered your argument by pointing out that there are some things worth putting your life at risk for. I then pointed out that this concept is incomprehensible to you because you are a coward.
For criminey’s sake, blueballs, half the time you don’t even have the courage to google basic facts on the internet. How can anyone expect you to understand those who do missionary work in war torn countries?
Oh, BTW, my cousin is reviewing your application. Don’t rest on your laurels though. Get out of bed, leap off your duff and hit the pavement. There are plenty of jobs out there, even for trolls like you.
P.S. I never said anything about you resting on your mother’s couch…Freudian slip on your part?
One of my coworkers is a member of the church in question.
He showed me a SMS that the church sent out to each and every member. It simply said “If you are contacted by the media, regarding the current situation, please tell them that they were on a medical mission.”
“Is it such a bad lie (if we presume that they really are lying)? What are they supposed to do, tell the world and the Muslims that those women were indeed missionaries out to convert the heathen Muslims? Yeah, that would do a lot of good. It almost sound like you really want those bitches raped and beheaded.”
Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that there are 18 nurses, doctors and medical students attending this one church in Bundang?
Also, I did not say anything about them being “raped” or “beheaded.” I said if they are breaking the law in that country they should be punished accordingly. If they have a problem with that, then they had no business going there in the first place.
“The road to Hell is paved with good intentions”
–Sonagi
Yet again you display your ignorance. Let me guess, you think that your platitude comes from scripture don’t you? Allow me to inform you that your quote is not from the bible.
Please do your research before you debate me, Sonagi. You’re embarassing yourself.
(Of course, you’ll say that you never said that your quote was from the bible, but if it wasn’t, one wonders why you felt the need to reference that quote)
Furthermore, you’ve failed to interpret the quote correctly. “The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions” is an injunction to get off your behind. It means that intentions without actions merit nothing. Your quote is inapplicable because the missionaries didn’t just sit on a blog whining and griping. They saw a problem, saw that other people–you, for instance–weren’t doing much to solve that problem, and acted on faith.
“You can understand a concept, an ideology, a philosophy, etc. without being sold on it.”
–globalvillageidiot
Wrong, my friend. You may be able to know about Christianity without being a Christian, but you cannot understand the tenets of Christianity without having faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of the bible is to believe in God, if you don’t believe in God, then you can’t understand it.
“Even Jesus went through a period of doubt…”
–Sonagi
More ignorance. Where’d you get this little tidbit from? Some atheist blog no doubt. Sonagi, Jesus did not go through a “period of doubt” in the dessert. The devil tempted Jesus, and Jesus sent the liar scurrying off. The 6 year old kids in Sunday school are aware of this fact. You aren’t. This, again, is Bible 101, which sadly you don’t even know.
Scripture comes from the bible, Sonagi, not your gut.
MaddleW, you should be ashamed for falling into Sonagi’s trap.
Sonagi may not know her scripture, but here’s one verse you may want to reflect upon, “youngrocco”:
“Pride goeth before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.”
Proverbs 16:18
“You can understand a concept, an ideology, a philosophy, etc. without being sold on it.”
–globalvillageidiot
“Wrong, my friend. You may be able to know about Christianity without being a Christian, but you cannot understand the tenets of Christianity without having faith in Jesus Christ. The whole message of the bible is to believe in God, if you don’t believe in God, then you can’t understand it.”
No, I think you are incorrect, even by your strict – and questionable – definition of what it is to understand something. One could be a true believer and change his/her mind. (Right or wrong, it happens all the time. One could lose one’s faith and find it once again.) It is a lot like saying one cannot understand love without being in love or experiencing it at a given moment.
One more thing: When it really comes down to it, are you, youngrocco2 – a mere mortal I presume – qualified to judge the extent of someone else’s understanding of Christian tenets, especially as you feel this must be directly related to one’s faith? I thought only He was in the position to make such a call.
You usually like to question the logical shortcomings of other people, youngrocco2, but the premise of your criticism of others is predicated on your own faith, and seemingly, your own interpretation of the bible (which as you know was actually ghostwritten, but I’m sure you knew that anyway…)
“If they have a problem with that, then they had no business going there in the first place.”
–Creo
More self-contradiction. Have you no shame? When the topic concerned that English teacher who received a jail sentence for teaching illegally in Korea, weren’t you saying that the sentence was too harsh? Despite the fact that the letter of the law had been followed? Now all of a sudden when it comes to beheading missionaries, you pull a 180 and claim that the law is the law. Unbelievable.
Anyways, laws are all well and good, but laws without basis in morality are irrelevant. I don’t know about you, but laws that say that women deserve death for trying to read, or that women who show an ankle in public deserve stoning, don’t garner any respect from me.
Only a fool would argue otherwise.
Now of course, you’ll claim that you never personally argued for the right to stone women and behead missionaries. You only said that if that happens, well then, the law is the law. But if you don’t believe this law is right, why would you bring it up?
I’m not gonna let you hide behind platitudes, creo. I’m gonna smoke you out.
If you have the courage, answer this question: Do you believe that Taliban is acting justly by putting Christian missionaries to death?
“You usually like to question the logical shortcomings of other people, youngrocco2, but the premise of your criticism of others is predicated on your own faith, and seemingly, your own interpretation of the bible (which as you know was actually ghostwritten, but I’m sure you knew that anyway…)”
Substitute “dictated” for “ghostwritten” if you prefer…
YoungRocco2,
“More self-contradiction. Have you no shame? When the topic concerned that English teacher who received a jail sentence for teaching illegally in Korea, weren’t you saying that the sentence was too harsh? Despite the fact that the letter of the law had been followed? Now all of a sudden when it comes to beheading missionaries, you pull a 180 and claim that the law is the law. Unbelievable.”
The reason you find my opinion so “unbelievable” is because what you are saying is untrue. I never said the Canadian’s sentence was too harsh. Did I say he will serve more time than the upstanding Korean Chairmen that have been convicted of breaking the law in the last few years? Yes.
I also noted that the Korean government is more than willing to punish foreigners while allowing Koreans to go free. I never once said the Canadian should not be punished nor did I say he should have received a lesser term. My point was Koreans should be held to the same standards.
Next time you may want to check out what people actually said before you start to quote them.
Here is the link to the posting on the Canadian English teacher to assist you.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/...../#comments
I’m not exactly a Koreaphile, but I have to say that these particular Koreans in Afghanistan are better men than me. I’m nominally a Christian, but there is no way I would have the guts to do what they’re doing – especially in a place as close-minded (i.e. murderously fanatical) about religion as Afghanistan. I could see Turkey – but Afghanistan is more or less what the original Christians had to deal with at the inception of the faith. I’m talking Roman circuses involving wild beasts and gladiators. I’m talking martyrdom, much as encountered by many of the writers and protagonists of the New Testament.
YoungRocco2,
And to answer your question…
“If you have the courage, answer this question: Do you believe that Taliban is acting justly by putting Christian missionaries to death?”
Whether I think the punishment fits the crime or not is irrelevant. The fact is if these people were stupid enough or naive enough to venture to another country and violate the law, (whether you think it is just or not) they should be prepared to accept the consequences.
Zhang Fei, this didn’t require “guts” — that would suggest they were aware of the danger they were placing themselves in. These guys, on the other hand, don’t appear to have had any clue what they were getting themselves into.
And if they were arrested by Afghan authorities and held in an Afghan prison, that statement might hold water. However, they’ve been ILLEGALLY kidnapped by an ILLEGAL insurgency group. Or, in other words, what they are experiencing is not the consequences of naively venturing into another