Members of civic groups opposed to the sale of U.S. beef throw cow manure inside the Lotte Mart Sangmu branch in Gwangju yesterday. Newsis, which transmitted the photo, blurred their faces. Lotte Mart introduced U.S. beef yesterday, the first time a nationwide supermarket has sold it in more than three years. [NEWSIS]
Read the story at the JoongAng Ilbo (English).
(HT to Ut videam)
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Yuppers, and to think I was THAT close to stopping into that exact Lotte Mart yesterday to pick up some good, USDA beef. Glad I didn’t.
So these are some of the hillbillies who are intent on me continuing to get reamed at the cash register each time I want to buy beef…
Why is not surprising that folks who happen to have baskets of cow manure are upset by Lotte’s resumption of US-origin beef sales?
I would be interested in knowing how ROK law allows such behavior. If groups want to protest, I don’t disagree, but is damaging private property or disrupting business activity allowed?
I’m interested to see the cameras behind them, too. Did they know feces was part of their workday? If a customer dared to protest the group’s interference and deliberate endangerment of others, would they be doing something illegal? How do you apply to the relevant authorities for a permit for this: “We want to protest…and we will be slinging unsanitary shit in a place that sells food to the general public.” If that doesn’t excite a bureaucrat’s attention, then nothing will.
Come on now — how long have you lived here in Korea?
What they did was flatly illegal. And nobody — other than you, Mr. Foreigner — cares.
Unlawful protest activity is generally not stopped by police (riot police allow lead pipe-wielding “civic group” numbskulls vent their spleens rather than stand their ground and enforce the law), nor is it often punished by the court. “The Law” gives way to a host of other considerations, including “pure intent” (i.e., the rest of us must be compelled to continue to subsidize their loss-making farming activity) and “social perspective” (i.e., the Yankee and the Jap will accept any provocation without consequence — only China and North Korea are to be feared). Fight your way in through the police (probably not that hard), fling turds around a supermarket and scupper the sale of US beef? You get a suspended sentence. Or a cookie, since you’re “on message” with the mercantilist establishment.
If you think Seoul would carry out its harassment of a Chinese private-equity fund as this government is doing to Lone Star, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. The Chinese government would not tolerate such abuse. But the Koreans are afraid of the Chinese; there is no similar fear of Uncle Sugar. Perhaps there should be. Teaching the Koreans some fear that there might be consequences from pissing in America’s cornflakes would do wonders for the bilateral relationship.
What I suggest is strictly reciprocal trading relations as suggested by (ugh) Tom Clancy. If American goods and services aren’t welcome in Korea, then perhaps the welcome mat at the Port of Long Beach ought to be reconsidered.
And no, despite being great fun, the fact that enforcement of laws simply melts away before social pressure is decidedly not good for Korea’s desire to become a hub of anything. If those dippy farmers wanted to stand out in front of the Lotte Mart, on public property, and hector people entering and leaving the store, I’d have no problem with that. However, that the state would not take measures to ensure they couldn’t barge into Lotte’s private property with their bucket of faeces is just another reason for the “Korea Discount” — it’s a sign that rule of law is not established here.
One possible saving grace is that the photo in question of the dung-flinging protestor was taken in Kwangju, Ground Zero for demented anti-US hysteria.
I would love to see these photos make mainstream media in the States and see how embarrassed the Korean netizens get. Probably won’t happen though.
stupid asshats.
Please for understanding our civic groups projecting the manure onto dirty American beefs. We are in special and unique circumstances that demand we take this actions to protect our livelihood from evil American capitalist pig.
It are clear that Lotte has violate our human rights by selling superior products for low cost. They are not considered our unique special situation, which that we sell low quality for high price. Good Korean business are for responsible support to Korean cow. Until Lotte are recognized and respecting human rights for Korean farmer, we are continue distribute manure at high rate of velocity like Park Chan Ho fastball.
Signed,
Patriotic Korean Cow Farmers Movement
I was craving a nice affordable steak yesterday evening after having read about the beef on sale. I plotted out to go to Lotte Mart, but instead diverted to the easier Grand Mart where all they’ve currently got is Australian and Korean beef. Like always I didn’t buy any.
Earlier I was discusing my steak plans with a Korean who informed me that he wouldn’t eat American beef because he doesn’t want to get mad cow diease. I laughed and began schooling him. There’s been 140 cases humans getting the sickness, out of a world population of 6 billion. The link to getting the diesease from eating tainted meat is only hypothesized. Further, if a cow got sick in Korea, do you think that the public would find out? Hell no. There’s been cases in Hong Kong and Japan, but none here. Korea can’t report it, the domestic beef industry would fold because everyone would start buying imported beef.
Classy as usual. Why are Korean beef producers doing this? The obviously feel their product is superior in quality to US beef (*see universally applied nationalistic formula below) so why need to marinate US beef with manure. Could it be they sense the public is sick of paying through the nose for low quality meat and $1 apples?
*Korean Product = Superior Quality
The Joongang story says the USDA Grade A top sirloin sold for W1550 per 100 grams (like cocaine!), or W15,500 per kilogram (demand for this dangerous, unhealthy product was so low, customers were limited to one kilogram apiece before the Turd Brigade™ arrived).
There are 2.2 pounds in a kilogram. W15,500 is US$16.90. American top sirloin on the shelf of a Korean supermarket sells for US$7.68 per pound. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, American top sirloin sells for US$4.99 per pound in Missouri. So even with a markup of 50% on the US beef (not really, because there is import duty, Value-Added Tax, and transport cost to consider) Korea’s unholy alliance of farmers and Communists considers keeping US$7.68/pound beef out of the hands of Korean consumers a life-or-death matter.
And well they should, since as the Joongang reports, they currently sell equivalent cuts of stringy, gristley hanwoo meat for a price (W6000 per 100g) nearly four times greater than that of the US beef. And this despite no import duty and minimal transport costs.
The brains behind Korean nationalism, served up in a flying display!
Reason #6,497 why Korea will never be taken seriously in the world community.
“But the Koreans are afraid of the Chinese; there is no similar fear of Uncle Sugar. Perhaps there should be. Teaching the Koreans some fear that there might be consequences from pissing in America’s cornflakes would do wonders for the bilateral relationship.”
I’ve always thought that we’d get more respect if we severed the ailing alliance and shipped our soldiers home.
“What I suggest is strictly reciprocal trading relations as suggested by (ugh) Tom Clancy. If American goods and services aren’t welcome in Korea, then perhaps the welcome mat at the Port of Long Beach ought to be reconsidered.”
Perhaps US Customs employess could get some training at the Karl Rove School of Subterfuge.
Huh? We all know you hate Karl Rove—and you’re probably in good company there—but the reference to him was apropos of absolutely nothing.
“The Law” gives way to a host of other considerations, including “pure intent” (i.e., the rest of us must be compelled to continue to subsidize their loss-making farming activity) and “social perspective” (i.e., the Yankee and the Jap will accept any provocation without consequence — only China and North Korea are to be feared”
–Brendon Carr
Geesh, more bellyaching and whining. Let me guess, the yellow man has his foot on your neck, right?
The sound of the smallest violin in the world flows just for you.
In any case, you are misdirecting your whining. That beef was purchased by Lotte Mart. Neither Uncle Sam, nor those who rant on his behalf, have much reason to complain. Wisconsin farmers got paid. Lotte Mart did not. It is Lotte Mart that lost inventory and most probably customers.
“But the Koreans are afraid of the Chinese”
–Brendon Carr
Nope. Not Really. But you are. Go to any bookstore. Compare the number of “China Threat” books written by American authors to the number of such books written by Korean authors if you want proof. Compare the defense white papers of both countries if you want even more.
Stop projecting, Brendon.
“We all know you hate Karl Rove—and you’re probably in good company there—but the reference to him was apropos of absolutely nothing”
I guess you don’t read or watch the news much. My comment was apropos of allegations that Rove was involved in the outing CIA agent Valerie Plame, the firings of the eight US attorneys, and the use of RNC and personal email accounts for government business. He is currently being investigated by the Office of Special Counsel on the latter two allegations.
YR: Actually, Wisconsin cows are dairy cows, beef will generally come from further western states like Montana.
The reason this matters is because of the all the imports America takes in from South Korea. Can you imagine if unemployed former car factory workers stormed a Hyundai showroom and started destroying the cars? First they’d all get thrown in jail for breaking the law, and second the people of Korea would start going crazy.
Korea doesn’t have to act like a legitimate nation with laws and rules, but if that’s the road it intends to take, then there is no reason for anyone else to think of Korea as a real nation either.
I’d like to think of SK as a real nation, so it’s only natural I expect them to act like one. But throwing horse shit all around a supermarket is not acceptable not because it’s an attack on American beef, but it’s an attack on human life of all those that shop at that Lotte. I certainly would never buy something from a store that allows customers to carry bags of cow shit in and start throwing it around on the food. In all reality, the place should be shut down for letting the criminals in.
BUT, as you uncontextually quoted Mr. Carr as saying, Korea is a country where laws only apply if the perceived victim is the collected Korean pride.
Apparently you like cow shit on your cereal…
@#15:
You are looking at only discourse in the public space. What is NOT said to WHOM is as important as what is said. Consider this Chosun Ilbo editorial cartoon critical of Chinese claims to Goguryo and Japanese claims to Dokto: http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20060905000060
This cartoon appeared in the Korean, English, and Japanese versions but not the Chinese version, which simply repeated the same cartoon from the previous day. Likewise, the photoshopped image of the female skaters holding up the “Mars Uriddang” sign reprinted from the Chinese media was censored to blot out the martian’s sign, which read “Gaoli Bangzi.” On the other hand, the Korean media had no problem showing photos of anti-Japanese drawings by Korean schoolchildren or “Americans not welcome” signs posted at Korean businesses. And let’s not forget how the Korean government has twice refused to grant a visa to the Dalai Lama to attend a Buddhist conference and a gathering of Nobel Peace Prize winners; ironically, the first refusal happened on the watch of fellow Peace Prize winner Kim Dae-jung. Nope, no cowardliness here.
It could also well be that self-censorship prevents publication of so-called “China threat” books in the ROK.
“In any case, you are misdirecting your whining. That beef was purchased by Lotte Mart. Neither Uncle Sam, nor those who rant on his behalf, have much reason to complain. Wisconsin farmers got paid. Lotte Mart did not. It is Lotte Mart that lost inventory and most probably customers. “
The whole point was to kill the chicken to scare the monkey and bully Korean merchants into not selling American beef, which ultimately hurts American beef producers. But I think you already knew that.
Rocco’s just keeping the manure flying…
“There’s been 140 cases humans getting the sickness, out of a world population of 6 billion. ”
Bingo! The dangers of mad cow disease have been greatly exaggerated. Where are the 5000 to 500000 deaths per year that were supposed to occur in Great Britain after the year 2000 as a result of mad cow disease?
How man cases of Koreans or Americans have developed CJD? Not many, I’m sure.
To put things in perspective:
Traffic accidents are the 4th largest causes of death in Korea, after cancer, stroke, and heart disease. About 10 000 people per year dead, over 400 000 injured–that’s roughly 1 out of every 100 people.
PS. If they truly wanted to prevent unnecessary deaths, they should hand out stiff fines to parents who don’t make their kids buckle up or don’t place them in child safety seats.
Granted that the way these protesters have conducted themselves cannot be condoned, but is it really because the farmers feel that their product is superior?
The JoongAng article state that imported beef is W1550 while the domestic product is W6000. Arguments about benefits of competitive capitalism aside, I think that it’s at least natural that they react with this much intensity. Aren’t they already being embattled by cheaper, more widely available Australian beef? I don’t know whether the price of domestic beef is artificially inflated or the result of other disadvantageous factors, but it doesn’t take much thinking to know that these farmers are about to take some major economic hits.
So, is it really a projection of nationalism as some here are suggesting? I think that this is a desperate action (albeit illegal and wrong) of bunch of people whose means of making living are in danger.
@ Brendon Carr
On the unnatural tolerance of violent and/or illegal protest in South Korea, I’ve been thinking, is there a factor of “policeman’s guilt” playing into it? That is, since the past actions of the law enforcement agencies has been viewed negatively while the protesters were viewed as “heroes” (4.19, 5.18, etc.), are the police force either consciously or subconsciously taking a lenient stance on them? (Of course, they should enforce the law when it is broken – protests do not have to be violent for it to have its effect)
“So, is it really a projection of nationalism as some here are suggesting? I think that this is a desperate action (albeit illegal and wrong) of bunch of people whose means of making living are in danger.”
One could say the same about auto workers slashing the tires of Japanese cars back in the 80s or angry Pittsburg and Cleveland steelworkers made redundant by rise of Pohang. American workers don’t like losing their jobs to cheaper Asian labor, especially if those workers are middle-aged and have few prospects for re-employment. Korean farmers aren’t special.
The Korean farmers should have to pay for the American beef they ruined, but at Korean prices.
“…One could say the same about auto workers slashing the tires of Japanese cars back in the 80s…”
Sometime in the last couple of years there was a story on US TV about a US Marine Corps Reserve Center, located somewhere in a city in the US (Michigan? can’t remember for sure). It happened to be located right next to a UAW union hall.
The Marines had insufficient auto parking space in their lot and the UAW had plenty, so the UAW (being patriotic Americans) were happy to allow the reservists weekend parking privileges during their drills. Until somebody in the UAW had the idea of denying parking to any reservists driving foreign-made cars (including, presumably, Hyundais & Kias).
The story obviously made local and then national news (since I saw it on TV and I was nowhere near the location).
UAW quickly rescinded the “ban” and nobody from the UAW would appear on camera for an interview; so whose idea exactly it had been (local/national) remained unknown. The last I heard the Marine commander had said “thanks but no thanks” and the Marines were making other arrangements for parking, but maybe by now they’ve “made up” with the UAW (can’t remember the city where it occurred or I’d try to find a link).
Different countries & definitely different cultures. As a US resident, I can testify categorically that if it wasn’t for this blog I wouldn’t have known about Korean farmers slinging manure at US beef outlets in the ROK at least, I’ve seen nothing about this topic on any of the major US cable TV news outlets and I scan them pretty regularly.
(I suppose the story could have made the inside of the main news — or the business/international sections — of the NYT, WSJ, Wash Post etc etc).
#22.
There is no guilt from riot police per say. Riot police in Korea do as they are told.
There’s a reason why riot police refused to fight back at full force against anti US military base protestors a while ago, while the protestors were probably breaking bones with their weapons.
Korea takes a variety of influences from foreign cultures, and I think rioting or protesting took a page out of how they do it in France or Italy.
Being a Jun Too Kyung Chal, or Jun Kyung is not a fun job whether it was during military govt or present day South Korea.
Not sure, but I think some people serve Goon Dae for their 2 years by being a Jun Kyung. I think my friend said that’s what his dad did.
What idiots. I hate it when ignorant people protest against something that will benefit society. Korea is a very inefficient beef producer and beef is hardly an essential staple. Koreans should let all the cheap beef flow into their country and focus on the niche market, meats that are particularly sweet and juicey as galbi or bulgogi, and move to a higher price point, but provide the value that justifies the higher price point.
Like Japanese beef. Also a very poor place to raise cattle efficiently, they focus on the niche market with the world famous Kobe beef being the result of that focus.
No, the yellow man does not have his foot on my neck. I work in a Korean law firm which treats me almost exactly like a fellow Korean. This has its upside, and its downside, but all in all I’ve had a good experience here in Korea. Unfortunately, my position as a publicly-accessible shoulder to cry on has also afforded me perspective on how abominably many other foreigners are treated.
So, it’s okay to behave that way so long as the victims are Korean?
One possible explanation for the greater number of books by American authors, on any topic, is that Americans read and purchase books and there are simply many more Americans to buy books. US population is 300 million, Korea’s less than 50 million. And Koreans don’t read — or, if they do read, don’t pay for books. The National Statistical Office reports this to us every year.
The irony is that Hanwoo is in fact a crossbeed between French Charolais cows (5/8)and the previous Korean cows (3.8). This is done in order to increase body weight. It’s not clear to me whether the Korean cows used in the breeding program are purebred Korean cows or crossbreeds of Angus, Hereford, Brown Swiss, and/or Charolais and purebred Hanwoo produced in the previous breeding programs. Either way, breeding the little Korean cows for their meat would be foolish: they were bred for plowing the fields, not for their meet.
http://www.agnet.org/library/eb/386/eb386.pdf
gee – big surprise…
koreans throwing, what else, but a huge SHIT-FIT in full public display.
very very classy.
see, I think security was almost purposely lax whether it was the police or private guards to let a guy wearing a large yellow ribbon and a large bucket of smelly cow manure to walk up like that inside the compound and also get photographed.
How does this sort of thing happen without some higher ups allowing it to happen?
To put this in proper context, imagine the UAW gang had notified the police department — and the media — of the exact time and place of their “surprise raid”. And that the police had dispatched a riot-control squad to bar entry to the store. The riot-control squad is fully armed and equipped and outnumbers the UAW gang by a significant margin.
Now have the police stand by idly, either on orders from the central government (Korea’s police are a national agency, while American police belong to local governments) or on their own discretion in contravention of orders from the central government, while UAW roughnecks destroy Hyundai cars and bully the vendors of Hyundai cars because they’re Korean cars.
Remember, Australian beef is already on the shelves of Korean supermarkets. This protest is simply because the beef is American in origin.
Oh yeah, here’s the final detail that is not widely known: Imagine the core leadership of the UAW gang is funded, in whole or in part, by direct transfer payments from the government.
If you’re a Korean diplomat or National Assemblyman being asked to vote on benefits to America — say, a Free Trade Agreement which grants more benefits to America than to Korea, a visa-waiver program, continued transfer of $25-30 billion per year to help protect America from Canadian aggression — how should you feel? How should you vote?
On the plus side, Korea’s non-tariff trade barriers and crazy civic groups afford every resident of the Republic of Korea the opportunity to live it up like Donald Trump. Once a year.
Brendon Carr said:
“To put this in proper context, imagine the UAW gang had notified the police department of the time and place of their raid. And that the police had dispatched a riot-control squad to bar entry to the store.
Now have the police stand by idly while UAW roughnecks destroy Hyundai cars”
And then the reporters that snapped photos of the incident would have to blur the images of the UAW gang, like they do here for the protesters.
“Remember, Australian beef is already on the shelves of Korean supermarkets. This protest is simply because the beef is American in origin.”
Yeah. Makes you wonder what the motives are behind this.
“Korea is a very inefficient beef producer and beef is hardly an essential staple. Koreans should let all the cheap beef flow into their country and focus on the niche market, meats that are particularly sweet and juicey as galbi or bulgogi, and move to a higher price point, but provide the value that justifies the higher price point.”
I agree 100%. Korean farmers lack the natural resources and are not utilizing the technology required to be remotely competitive in this segment of the beef industry. There was recently a story in the news about the success Korean farmers are having introducing Korean soy based products to the world. They were very content with the premium prices they were getting. Their success can be attributed equally to a high quality product and the marketing they are investing in to develop brands that foreign markets are willing to pay a premium for.
Though I feel for Korean farmers (my own relatives in the states went through this when technology replaced labor in farming) their efforts are futile. The sooner they accept the inevitable the sooner they can begin to develop a niche they full have the ability to prosper in.
Do I still believe this issue has anything to do with “Nationalism?” Anyone see any stories about Koreans tossing shit on Australian meat? If it has to do with America, Koreans usually have a “beef” with it (excuse the pun).
Maybe they could develop a premium “Choco Pie” brand for the global market as they like to toss them around so much. I love “Choco Pies!”
#36: They’d be 90 years late:
http://moonpie.com/hist_text.asp
16 –
“I guess you don’t read or watch the news much.”
Cheap shot, not to mention patently false. But anyway:
“My comment was apropos of allegations that Rove was involved in the outing CIA agent Valerie Plame, the firings of the eight US attorneys, and the use of RNC and personal email accounts for government business. He is currently being investigated by the Office of Special Counsel on the latter two allegations.”
Yes, I’m aware of all these allegations. My question was—and remains—what do they have to do with US-ROK trade policy? You made the comment in reply to Brendon’s suggestion about reciprocal trading relations. Dense as I apparently am, I still fail to see how trashing Karl Rove is germane to that topic, or to the thread in general.
Well, Korean farmers are actually very efficient at producing good quality beef (sometimes better than imports)…but that has more to do with the breeding program than the farming itself. Either way, Korea probably produces far fewer heads of cattle per rancher than in North America or Australia, which would affect production cost… I just don’t think that the increase would be large enough to warrant charging 4 times more for Korean beef than for Australian or American.
I don’ think this perfectly compares to American’s slashing tires on Japanese cars in the 70’s and 80’s. The reason being, we had just finished fighting probably the bloodiest wars in human history with the Japanese a short 30 years ago. Certainly the financial reasons were big, but I don’t think that was all there was too it. South Korea has fought no war with America, at least that America is aware of.
It does however somewhat compare to the Japanese bans on American beef. As was said, Japanese beef really is just too expensive for everyone on fits only a niche market. Before the mad-cow case (that wasn’t even an American mad-cow case in reality), the rest was filled by American/Australian beef. Now it’s just Australian. Both Japan and Korea are not rejecting American beef for protectionist reasons, they’re rejecting it because it’s American. Both the Japanese and the Koreans say the do it for health reasons, but something that is different about Korea is that her farmers are protesting American beef while the Japanese farmer could care less because he knows his market and is going to sell all he produces regardless of other options on the shelf.
er… pulgogi and kalbi are – mostly – made of beef, so these dishes could enjoy the same benefit of cheaper prices…
#41, yeah, and what are they supposed to do with the rest of the cow? Throw it away?
“My question was—and remains—what do they have to do with US-ROK trade policy? You made the comment in reply to Brendon’s suggestion about reciprocal trading relations. Dense as I apparently am, I still fail to see how trashing Karl Rove is germane to that topic, or to the thread in general.”
I didn’t trash Karl Rove. I actually admire him. He has the potent combination of high intelligence and amorality. He does things his opponents would like to do but aren’t smart enough to pull off. He could teach our US Customs agents how to interfere with Korean imports without getting caught doing anything illegal.
“He could teach our US Customs agents how to interfere with Korean imports without getting caught doing anything illegal.”
Oh, you mean by doing something like this?
44, Ut videam,
Very interesting story indeed! This has me questioning the true origins of the alleged “Korean” cow pies that were tossed on the US beef. Wouldn’t it be interesting to find out the Korean cows that produced them did so with corn grown in Iowa?
Sure throwing cow manure is bad, but it’s almost saint act compared to what white Americans did to Vincent Chin. Vincent who? The Holier-than-thou Americans here may ask. Here is the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Chin, check it out by yourself. The two white Americans who brutally killed him with baseball club never served 1 single day in jail, and all they paid was less than $4000. The judge said this, “These weren’t the kind of men (read: white men) you send to jail… You don’t make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal.” I know it’s hard to believe for many feel-so-good-about-themselves Americans here, but all this happened in USA, the great land of freedom and justice. Do you know shame?
Wow… way to get completely off he subject, Xi…
If you can’t argue, distract and deflect.
#46
Using this kid’s death to spew hatred? How classy of you.
Sure, we’re talking about BS…just not the kind that is found in your post.
PS. The irony…”Chin’s case has been cited by some Asian Americans to support the idea that they are seen as underprivileged citizens or “perpetual foreigners” compared to “real” Americans.”
Is it your American pride that makes you so dense that you don’t see the similarities? Imported Japanese cars threatens American auto workers means of living so they went to kill one Chinese (mis-identified as a Japanese). Threatened Korean farmers throw cow manure to imported American beef. Same reasoning behind the two cases. Only that in one some beef ruined and in the other people was killed and murders let go easily. And this happened in the land of justice.
The link given in #46 above is spelled correctly as far as I can tell but it didn’t work for me. Try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Chin
If it still doesn’t work, search for “Vincent Chin wikipedia” and the article will appear, it’s there all right.
I wondered why I hadn’t heard of this case before. In June 1982 I’m sure I was on extended Army maneuvers in the desert and away from newspapers/TV, thus unable to feed my news addiction. Same thing probably applied when the subsequent court cases and appeals were adjudicated in 1984, 1986, 1987.
I’d be interested in any “where are they now?” info as to the two killers. I see one of them settled an out of court wrongful death civil lawsuit (a la OJ Simpson) but then “disposed of his assets and fled”, presumbably overseas but the article doesn’t say.
“A play based on the case, Cherylene Lee’s Carry the Tiger to the Mountain, was performed at the West End Theatre in Manhattan in June 2007…” (from the wiki link).
Have you just seen the play, xi? And what’s your own citizenship and ethnic heritage?
I went to law school in Seattle, which is (especially the professional schools) crawling with Asian-Americans. Vincent Chin is well-known to me, at least. When Chin was killed in 1982, I remember hearing about it from the CBS Evening News and reading some things in the local newspaper, but at that time I was 12 years old and lived in a small town in central Missouri — there wasn’t a huge Asian community. But if I remember it as shocking from my vantage point among the hicks living by the Missouri River, you can bet that “white America” wasn’t completely indifferent.
Now that I have perspective from law school, I know the final punishment was unjust, but the legal basis for each of the small steps which ended up there was sound. Plea bargaining to lesser charges is an integral part of our justice system; they were charged with second-degree murder, which makes manslaughter the next step down. Believe it or not, probation is a very common sentence for crimes of manslaughter, especially for “first offenders”, because manslaughter is one of those crimes which is considered to have a low likelihood of re-offense.
In the later Federal civil-rights prosecution, attorneys for the prosecution were found to have unlawfully coached witnesses. That gets a case thrown out, even if you’re a heinous criminal.
OJ Simpson is free too. Does this mean the American justice system is biased against white victims? No, it just means sometimes things go wrong in court. One salient point in the Vincent Chin case is that it is perceived as an outrageous aberration within the American justice system, and through the Federal civil-rights prosecution and later civil lawsuit there was a serious attempt by the government and other parties to set things right. We can’t say the same about systemic non-punishment of Korean protesters with bias against all things Yankee. And that’s what makes this latest tu quoque (Latin for Yo’ mama) deflection attempt misplaced.
“OJ Simpson is free too. Does this mean the American justice system is biased against white victims? No, it just means sometimes things go wrong in court.”
Brendon, I wish you were Chin.
I know you do. But you’re insane.
Anyway, living here in Korea I have a chance, however remote, of that same thing happening to me during some fit of orchestrated racist-nationalist outrage. Like Dr. (Maj.) David Berry, who got it in the gut just walking down the street in Itaewon. Would the loon who stabbed him for no reason have done so without the flames of nationalist passion having been stoked by the government and so-called “civic groups”? Can you tell us the sentence for that crime of passion?
Throwing shit on American beef is not an anti-American activity. It is an attempt by Korean farmers to notify Korean government that their livelihood is threatened. Their eventual goal is to get tax break or farm subsidies from politicians.
Don’t get the wrong message like Brendon. Lightweights like Brendon who have not been in Korea long time and speak no Korean(not interested in learning about Korea) feel threatened whenever he sees something.
Xenophobia.
Brendon Carr,
Leave the country. You are not doing anything good for Korea or yourself.
No money is worth what you are going through. Life is short. Enjoy. Be where you want to be with people you want to be with.
Just out of curiosity, Baduk, on what do you base your claims that Mr. Carr a) hasn’t been here long and b) doesn’t speak Korean?
Brendon Carr,
I hate to see you some day on some major TV network in the US as the Korean expert, bragging how long you have lived in Korea and how much you know about Korea and its people.
And, you will diss Koreans to the max.
I hate that. Leave Korea.
You will be very happy back in the States. Don’t worry about career or money. There are plenty of jobs in the US; economy is good.
People who go to a foreign country should be people who are willing to be exposed to cultures different from his own and interested in developing relationship with natives.
You don’t fit the category. Only reason you are in Korea is to make money.
As I said, there are plenty of job in the States. Don’t torture yourself.
I am sorry, Robert. I just lost it when Brendon excused these two criminals saying OJ is free as well. Chin is baseball-batted to death with many witnesses. OJ had no witness and no weapon. In what way, these two cases are similar?
Maybe Brendon did not mean to equate these two cases. However, I still find his persistent attitude toward defending the criminals so disgusting.
Can he be the same if he were born a Yellow skin? Or, one of his family member was baseball-batted to death in a McDonald by skinheads?
He still doesn’t get it.
This one is awesome. You’re writing from Koreatown in Los Angeles, right? Should all of those people be sent back to Korea? (Now that you mention it, hmm…)
Better cancel that cable television subscription.
There are three types of people who only have good things to say, in English, about Korea:
(1) Koreans, who generally don’t value “truth” as an absolute good but prefer to manage the message released to the barbarians “for the good of the nation” — they tolerate much more argument and criticism in the Korean language, provided it’s criticism from other Koreans (the rest of us should have that cup of STFU), but worry about expressing “wrong ideas” in English
(2) Fresh-off-the-plane foreigners agog at their first overseas experience
(3) Chamber-of-Commerce phonies
The rest of us see this place in total, the good and the bad (of which there is much), and have a right — though you would deny it to those of us who are not ethnic Koreans — to express our opinions. Although I don’t “hate Korea” as you accuse, you and other Koreans might ask yourselves why it is that so many people who have had contact with Korea and with Koreans do end up hating Korea?
But, following my rule of always taking the suggestions of anonymous Internet lunatics, I hereby renounce my career and am returning to America as soon as I can get an airline ticket. I suggest you proceed to LAX to await my return. Can I crash on your couch, baduk?
You don’t read so well, do you? Find me anything where I defend or excuse those criminals.
Baduk, I’m astonished.
Bredon,
It is obvious that you don’t like Koreans. Instead of struggling with people you don’t like, why don’t you just leave the country and let the people be?
I somehow believe that is good for you, good for Koreans and good for the Universe.
You are obsessed with Koreans. This evil people daily assail your sense of fairness and justice. Koreans are one of the worst people you have seen.
So, what is your justification for keep staying in this horrible situation. Be courage, man. There are opportunities all over the world. Why keep pushing yourself to the hole?
Before you get another year old, get out of the horrible situation. Come back to the States. Regain your sanity and sense of balance.
Health, especially mental health, is the most important thing in life. You can earn money any time. And, I am sure that you have enough already.
Be brave. Move on.
Commenter xi, the Vincent Chin example is not new to this blog; Kushibo used it on a few occasions.
Coming back to this case: in what way does the injustice attendant to the verdict oin the Chin case support the actions seen at Lotte in Gwangju? To suggest that injustice occurs in other societies is no justification for allowing it to occur here and now in this society. Even if we allow for similarities between these cases, how does an argued misapplication of justice regarding one crime in one country at one time support the misapplication of law in another country at another time?
“It is obvious that you don’t like Koreans.”
Did you even read his responses to the other 50 times you said that? Commenting on something that is wrong does not equate hating the entire country that only a small part is being criticized for. When you and others react the way you are calling all those who say anything about Korea other than it’s the greatest, best race, country ever racist, xenophobic, you only propagate the stereotypes about Koreans that are originally being criticized.
“You are obsessed with Koreans”
Well if you base your entire view of Brandon on his comments on this blog, you’re probably going to get to that conclusion because hey, this is a Korean blog! Generally speaking, everything here is about Korea in some way or form. Anything that isn’t about Korea is essentially off-topic.
“Before you get another year old, get out of the horrible situation. Come back to the States. Regain your sanity and sense of balance.”
That’s so funny coming from you of all people. You’re a complete lunatic — Don’t throw stones from inside your glass house right?
“Health, especially mental health, is the most important thing in life.”
Here we go again… Anyone that says anything that doesn’t amount to sucking the collective Korean cock is a Korea hatting mentally challenged fool? Because anyone in good mental health would gladly suck the collective Korean cock right?
The irony of all of this coming from you, living in America, bitching about how America is full of pig dogs. Why don’t you return to your home too? Or would they not accept you as a true Korean because you’ve been tainted by the chemicals they put in foreign air?
The ban on U.S. beef at least got me to try Australian beef–it’s really good, makes excellent steaks.
Hanwoo is symbolic, like rice is, and the farmers already get plenty of gov’t support. They’re being petty.
Don’t twist the facts. Our friend baduk does not bitch “about how America is full of pig dogs.” He is a proud and patriotic American citizen and, I might add, a US Navy veteran. The guy doesn’t have much bad to say about America.
Simultaneously — one with a sense of humor might even say “schizophrenically” — baduk is a knee-jerk ethnic-Korean nationalist. Although he is full of criticisms (”Fools die”) of Korea and especially the current regime, baduk is intolerant of criticisms coming from us “foreigners” (ironic, since he is one too).
When I suggest reciprocal trading relations with Korea and less welcome for Hyundai cars at the Port of Long Beach because of anti-Americanism, that’s “unfair” and baduk is quick to excuse the anti-American protest behavior. But check out his own blog (second entry from the top, dated Friday, December 8, 2006) — why, baduk prescribes exactly the same remedy! (Albeit for a different problem.)
And he accuses me, a resident of Korea who comments on a Korea-focused blog about my opinions on the society in which I live, of being “obsessed with Koreans”. Take a look at his own blog again. I dare you to find baduk’s offerings on his observations of American society. It’s all Korea, all the time. But he lives in America, as an American citizen, and says those living in countries other than their native land should “develop relationships with natives”. Yet there is no evidence of that relationship having been formed by baduk. Instead he’s on alert for “Korea-hating foreigners” over here.
But, you see, you and I should drink up from the cup of STFU — we’re not ethnic Koreans.
Maybe more later, but for now I have to go back into a horribly boring meeting.
#49.
Nice try. I’m not American.
“One salient point in the Vincent Chin case is that it is perceived as an outrageous aberration within the American justice system…And that’s what makes this latest tu quoque deflection attempt misplaced.”
Yes, even the Wiki article Xi linked to made that clear.
“Throwing shit on American beef is not an anti-American activity. It is an attempt by Korean farmers to notify Korean government that their livelihood is threatened.”
Hmm, okay. It’s hard to believe that they Korean cattle farmers are about to go bankrupt when you look at the price of beef here. Why don’t you explain to me why Korean beef went from 12000won/kg won to 59000 won/100g in the last 10 years? Marketing is the answer. The latest incident is just in that vein. As someone else already pointed out, Australian beef is already available. Allow American beef imports will affect the Australian beef imports, but that’s about it. I’m not convinced that the Korean beef industry is threatened, but they certainly hope that the government will increase subsidies and tax breaks. It reminds me of Canadian lobster and crab fishermen going on strike because the government wanted to make it more difficult for them to collect unemployment insurance. They’d wear their grungiest work clothes for the cameras, making sure to leave the Benz at their million dollar home. Instant working class heroes.
As long as they continue to produce a niche product (high-grade beef), they’ll do fine.
59000/kg
First quote Brendon, second Baduk…
“I am sorry, Robert. I just lost it when Brendon excused these two criminals saying OJ is free as well. Chin is baseball-batted to death with many witnesses. OJ had no witness and no weapon. In what way, these two cases are similar?”
Both were travesties of justice. There was DNA evidence that OJ did it, they had his shoe-prints, the fresh cut on his finger, his gloves, etc.
Argue that the cops planted it all if you want, it doesn’t make it true. Besides, did you see how he put on the gloves at the trial? Have you ever shaped your hand like a claw when putting on gloves? “If the gloves don’t fit, you must acquit”? Bloody hell.
if I may say something, in major American jury trials, the ethnic make up of the jury has been money for either the defendant or the prosecution so far.
white jury? Are you a white defendant. You’re in luck. ie, Rodney King.
ie, Detroit case of Mr. Chin and the two white men who got off clean. Clean.
black man? Let’s get you a black jury. OJ. Not guilty.
see what I mean?
It’s almost sickening to the gut.
Imagine when times were different and black men always faced white juries.
Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.
White men accused of crime against black men, yellow men, red men, brown men?
These men aren’t the kind you put in jail.
The only significant changes to this started in the 1960s, and as my example shows, even half a decade later, there are lingering effects.
I suppose I should say something about the beef. This was clearly a govt approved political photo op.
Notice the camera men. Notice the yellow ribbon man, without a single guard in front of him. Maybe he smelled awful. He did soil his pants.
But most importantly, the photo shot captured cow shit in mid air.
You gotta time that, man.
Here is how you end this discussion.
Baduk,
Myself and every American here agree that the case you stated (from 1982) is an injustice. America and Americans make mistakes and none of us are proud of this nor will we try to deny it.
Will you admit the same as a Korean? Well…that will be all we hear from Baduk on this subject. Your welcome all. Works everytime.
Unless of course Baduk launches into telling me to go back to America because I refuse to be a good little white person while in Korea and run around with a smile on my face nodding my head like a talking head on EBS.
SomeguyinKorea,
I don’t know how this topic evolved into American justice system, but I still think there is no “preponderance of evidence” in OJ case. If there is even a faintest chance of “doubt”, the first degree murder must not convict. If not convictable, then OJ must be released.
And, he was released. Even at the very beginning of the case, experts said that without an witness or a weapon, it is very difficult to convict. Because without these, you are only working with circumstantial evidences. No convict power.
Henry Lee took care of the foot prints. Other “bought” experts denounced DNA results. Gloves? A racist cop picked up in the bushes. Anybody could have thrown it there.
See, nothing sticks. All circumstantial. All hearsays.
There is another intesting case going on in LA county. Phil Spector shot and killed a woman. I think this case is more solid than OJ’s due to the murder weapon belonging to Spector. However, he is insisting the girl did herself during sexual foreplay.
Sick. But, maybe true. It is LA. With a rich musician. Kinky is in.
And, you know what? Henry Lee, himself, visited the scene and removed an evidence. He is in China right now. He may not come back.
For Brendon, I don’t know if it helps but I wrote something from my experience in weekly open thread. And, I appologize to you for losing my temper.
Back to the subject of beef. Someone in the US mentioned how they had seen nothing about this incident in the states. That is a shame. I know before I left America I was a naive as any other American about how others view America. I was especially naïve about how countries that are more than willing to accept American tax dollars (for decades) show their appreciation. Maybe if more Americans saw examples such as this they would be a little less willing to go to work everyday and allow the government to turn the money they have earned over to every one that steps up with open hands and a smile on their face.
I like to think my fellow Americans are decent when it comes to helping out those in need, but I am starting to wonder if we aren’t just a country of fools.
And no I am not suggesting that any country that accepts assistance from the US should bow to our every demand. We can agree to disagree…how about just doing it in a little more civilized manner.
“The reason this matters is because of the all the imports America takes in from South Korea”
–Peter Pan
The United States has a population more than 6 times that of Korea and a GDP more than twice as large…which country do you expect to buy more products?
But don’t let common sense keep you from throwing your pity party.
“Can you imagine if unemployed former car factory workers stormed a Hyundai showroom and started destroying the cars?”
–Peter Pan
Your analogy bears no relation to Mr. Carr’s comments. Hyundai cars are not a Korean import.
“BUT, as you uncontextually quoted Mr. Carr as saying, Korea is a country where laws only apply if the perceived victim is the collected Korean pride.”
–Peter Pan
Korean pride was never mentioned in the comment posted by Mr. Carr. So I did not take any quote out of context. Please stop lying.
“I’d like to think of SK as a real nation”
–Peter Pan
Funny, I thought it was your country that had all these complexes about becoming a “normal” country…
“So, it’s okay to behave that way so long as the victims are Korean?”
–Brendon Carr
Wow. Glad I dodged that Red Herring. Brendon, stop feigning ignorance. You’re better than that.
My point is simply that America got its money, while Lotte Mart did not. If anyone shoud complain, It is Lotte Mart executives, not those desperate to come up with instances of Anti-Americanism.
“And Koreans don’t read”
–Brendon Carr
Lol. I guess you haven’t been to a Kyobo or Bandi and Luni’s bookstore lately. Anyways, lets see a link so that we know exactly what you’re talking about here. (Just to make sure that you’re not taking stats out of context)
Also, I said you could compare the defense white papers. You’ll see that your country fears China more than Korea.
“This protest is simply because the beef is American in origin.”
–Brendon Carr
Brendon, when you look at the simple facts of the issue, you can see that your arguments just aren’t up to snuff:
1. Bans on American Beef were put in place only recently. The ban on American Beef started in 2003. If beef restrictions are due to Anti-Americanism as you claim, then the bans would have started way before that.
2. The ban has nothing to do with the beef coming from the United States qua being from the United States. The ban was put in place because of the Mad Cow scare combined with lax testing standards for slaughter in the United States. Australia has a comprehensive testing policy in which every head of cattle is tested before slaughter. The United States’ policy only requires the testing of “downer” cows, i.e. cows that are unable to walk. The reason that Australian beef is imported is because Australian beef has higher quality control standards.
I’m actually pretty surprised at your posts in this thread, Brendon. You’re normally a pretty sensible and logical guy, but you seem a little off your swing on this discussion.
Despite all the shitslinging and scaremongering, it appears the good ol’ free market will have the last word on U.S. beef after all:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....60009.html
And isn’t that the way it should be…the consumer is intelligent enough to decide how they want to spend their hard earned money. They don’t need a Korean farmer with a pale of shit to make the decision for them.
opps…pail
“Lotte Mart, the first of the big supermarkets to resume selling the meat, said its stock of 40 tons of chilled beef sold out on the second day Saturday at all its branches”
–Chosun Ilbo
This quote runs directly counter to Brendon and Peter Pan’s ludicrous accusations of Anti-Americanism and beef.
There is no beef between the ROK and the USA when it comes to beef.
Thanks, Ut Videam
Also…what’s up with blurring out the face of the shit-slinging idiot? It’s a news photo of a guy in the middle of what must be an illegal act (although this being Korea, nothing will happen to him) not the arrest of a suspect.
Ah, “journalism” in Korea….
That’s simply because we have not had the experience of living as vassals of the Chinese.
(I’m assuming you mean to say that the U.S. fears China more than Korea fears China, and not that the U.S. fears China more than the U.S. fears Korea, which I would agree with as well.)
From the Chosun Ilbo, April 24, 2007:
There you have it: Koreans don’t read. I am a voracious reader my own damn self, and encourage my children to read as well. My wife, in fact, was a librarian before she devoted herself full time to tormenting our children. But to be frank with you, she doesn’t herself really read. She spends interminable hours “studying” one thing or another, and hectoring our children to Study, dammit, but I have very rarely caught her with a non-textbook or periodical in her hands.
I’m convinced that Korea’s education mania strangles all enjoyment out of reading, and that’s why Koreans don’t read. We have the odd juxtaposition of a country with nearly 100% literacy, where nobody really likes reading. You can see this just looking at the slim pickings on the magazine shelves.
As for Bandi & Luni and Kyobo Bookstore (and Youngpoong Bookstore), I go there all the time — they are truly awesome spectacles of consumerism and it looks like they have a lot of books. But again, take out the non-textbooks and what are you left with? I do read Korean, so I’m not oblivious to what’s on sale, and I can tell you the non-textbook proportion of stock on sale is pretty thin. And a large proportion of the “customers” seem to be there with a notepad and pencil, copying relevant sections from the books.
Also, what’s the penetration of these bookstores in Korea? There are 15 branches of the Kyobo Bookstore nationwide, serving a population of 50 million. America has 696 Barnes & Nobles (according to B&N’s Q1 2007 conference call, they also own B. Dalton Booksellers and there are 97 of those). So the leading Korean bookstore musters 15 branches nationwide, while the leading American bookstore has 800.
Plus there’s Borders Books, which has 499 “supercenters” in the US under the Borders brand, and 700 Waldenbooks located in malls. So that takes us to 2000 American bookstores. America, it seems, is swimming in book vendors. Don’t forget Amazon.com!
To be fair, let’s toss in Bandi & Luni (2 branches, at Coex and Chongno) and Youngpoong. Surprisingly, they have 19 branches. What’s that total, again? Sure, there are lots of tiny neighborhood “bookstores” but they almost exclusively sell textbooks, study aids, and manhwa. But all told, there probably aren’t 50 stores in all of Korea which qualify as a “good bookstore”.
The distribution of these Korean bookstores is also enlightening, but I won’t go into it in detail here. Suffice it so say, when a city like Suwon (pop. 1.1 million) hosts just one of these bookstores (Youngpoong Bookstore, West Suwon branch), something is up.
I’m sure there’s some racist conspiracy you can cite to explain this, but given the information the National Statistics Office and the National Library is providing — my conclusion is that Koreans buy fewer books. My supposition is it’s because they don’t like reading, because it certainly can’t be that they’re too poor for books, and it isn’t that the public library system here is too excellent.
Many of you are wondering why Brendon Carr sounds, well . . . weird. It is because as a lawyer he believes that laws should, ought and do make sense. So laws must be defended or attacked or explained in each and every case. What a burden! No wonder lawyers work within the confines of a definition. They will define and then pontificate about the said definition and narrow it even more till it makes sense in the legal worldview. Once in a while a lawyer will begin to venture from this world of petty paper pushing and begin to go mad. Because you cannot rationalize law and reality and remain sane. For example can anyone define the word justice? It simply cannot be done. The ideas of justice come from a far older, more brutal and exacting world order that we all can instinctively feel our way to be true. Justice, today, is simply a construct, as is government and the feeling that we are part of some sort of collective experience.
I sound weird?
Yes Brendon you do. Not even Alan at Harvard would try to defend any model of justice as rational. Your passion in defending legal opinions point to the fact that you must in person find many of your opinions to be right by virtue of it having an intrinsic value evident via a priori. Even Dersowitch found a lot of his credibility diminished as a legal theoretician due to his social commentary upon law that many serious lawyers found repugnant. It is difficult enough for a trained anthropologist to link causation to social theory. To link causation to social theory and comment on its relationship to law and theory and then to cross link it to a separate judicial code smacks of hubris.
I don’t think he sounds wierd, sumo294, but I think you sound impolite for saying that he does.
sumo294:
I beg to differ with your contention that defining justice “simply cannot be done.” Aristotle did a fine job in the Nicomachean Ethics, and Aquinas contributed great insight in the Summa Theologiæ (the Treatise on Justice is found at II-II, qq. 57–121; NB q. 58 which deals directly with the definition of justice).
#81 –
Not so fast there, YoungRocco.
The quote runs directly counter to the accusation of Anti-Americanism and beef among the general Korean populace—an accusation that Brendon and Peter Pan did not make.
Cowshit, straw men… mucking out this thread’s going to be a Herculean task.
The manure flingers — those who flung actual bovine shit, not prolific purveyors of its rhetorical form — were part of a movement to block the KorUS FTA. They were using BSE talk to scare the gullible — and it worked in one notable case.
I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in the views on China in the ROK Defense White Paper, given that the Seoul government began pushing for the removal of the North Korea as main enemy clause amid unprovoked West Sea naval attacks from the North and at the height of North Korea’s escalation of the nuclear dispute. It would be remarkable if there were not more self-censhorpship toward Korea’s historical overlord.
#73…One problem with that…The DNA evidence. The defense’s expert’s prime role was to make DNA evidence look incredibly boring to the jury that was made up of layperson, not to refute it. It obviously worked. The defense was counting on the fact that most juries, especially if they know little about science, will be reticent to convict someone on DNA evidence since they don’t understand the science.
Ironically, I was actually doing DNA testing when the verdict came out. Let’s just say I wasn’t impressed.
I wonder…Does South Korea test its own cattle for mad cow before slaughter like Australia does?
Well, there is racial justice, moral justice, economic justice, criminal justice, historical justice..
Definition:
1. fairness: fairness or reasonableness, especially in the way people are treated or decisions are made
2. system or application of law: the legal system, or the act of applying or upholding the law
3. validity: validity in law
4. good reason: sound or good reason
5. judge: a judge, especially of a higher court
It sounds pretty subjective to me. I may coin a term, “sexual justice” but I do not know what it means or how it can be used. Somhow, I get the feeling that men will require this from women.
The conversation may go like this:
A man speaking: I bought you movie tickets and dinners. So, you should sleep with me. I demand sexual justice. (It fits definition 1).
SomeguyinKorea,
OJ DNA test was THE FIRST time Los Angeles police department ever did DNA test. The technician said he followed a book!
If you did the test itself, you know one can not follow this from a book. A chemist working for police cannot be neutral. The more he convicts, the higher his pay gets. This is one of the reason I have avoided working for police. Justice is their bowl of rice.
One witness, a former director of DNA testing lab, came and told the jury about the danger of contamination. I give 50-50 chance that OJ DNA testing was intentionally contaminated to produce positive results.
Police use science to convict. They are not doing good science.
#90
Thank you Ut videam. I wasn’t even going to bother responding because I had reason to suspect he would learn how to read the second time around if he didn’t the first time to begin with.
#95
You can do this by following a book, sure. So, now you’re accusing the lab tech of fabricating a false positive? Come on. You’re reaching.
Ut the definition you provide for justice was a snapshot of Hellenic times. It fails to account for the justice as conceived in Pre-Hellenic times and of course fails to address later issues in Hellenistic times. Of the three great minds only Plato really tries to address what Justice is and he fails. Socrates did not even attempt an answer and Aristotle was only probing the ideas of a workable definition of justice. For example he was not really concerned about exactly where justice came from, his main thrust was to chip away at what justice catergorically might or ought to be.
“That’s simply because we have not had the experience of living as vassals of the Chinese.”
–dogbert
Interesting theory. This might explain then why the United States is not afraid of England–The United States having been a former colony of England and all.
But vassalage aside, it would seem that you agree with me that the United States fears China more than Korea does.
“I’m sure there’s some racist conspiracy you can cite to explain this, but given the information the National Statistics Office and the National Library is providing — my conclusion is that Koreans buy fewer books”
–Brendon Carr
Good work, Brendon. Thanks for citing the data. Unfortunately, your argument is fairly weak and has a number of holes. First, your claim of the selection of non-textbooks is false. Second, you ignore the data itself, which only indicates the number of books the average Korean household BUYS 8 books per year, this is not the same as the number of books Koreans READ. Third, your data focuses only on chains and leaves out the number of independent bookstores. Fourth, you forget the fact that a large number of popular novels are checked out not from bookstores or libraries, but from video rental stores. Last but not least, you ignore the number of purchases made on the internet, which, given broadbrand penetration in Korea, I would surmise as fairly robust.
Racism? Don’t flatter yourself. Your argument is too weak to force me to resort to such underhanded methods. I don’t need to complain about racism in Korea, Brendon. You’re the minority in this country, remember? Anyways, my point still stands: Korea is less afraid of China than is the United States. If you believe book publishing data does not confirm my claim, you can look at the defense white papers of the two countries if you want further proof.
Oh yeah, you still haven’t refuted my argument that your Anti-Americanism whining is unjustified.
“Not so fast there, YoungRocco.
The quote runs directly counter to the accusation of Anti-Americanism and beef among the general Korean populace—an accusation that Brendon and Peter Pan did not make.”
–Ut Videam
Looks like you and the guy in the picture have something in coommon, Ut Videam–you’re both full of BS.
Re-read what Brendon wrote. Actually, nevermind. You and Peter Pan are obviously too lazy to do even elementary fact checking. I’ll excerpt the relevant parts of Brendon’s first post:
1. “But the Koreans are afraid of the Chinese.”
Notice he didn’t specify which Koreans. One can safely assume then that he was referring to the general population of Koreans.
2. “If American goods and services aren’t welcome in Korea, then perhaps the welcome mat at the Port of Long Beach ought to be reconsidered.”
Notice the implication here. Again this would seem to refer to Koreans in general. But the article Ut Videam so graciously cited run directly counter to this claim of American goods and services not wanted in Korea, at least as it concerns beef.
3. “i.e., the Yankee and the Jap will accept any provocation without consequence”
This is the main point of Brendon’s whining. However, as I pointed out, the dung-flinging is not provocation of the United States because the beef in question belongs to Lotte Mart, not the United States. Uncle Sam got paid, Lotte Mart did not.
And regardless of whether the point of the protest was, as Sonagi pointed out, to scupper the sale of U.S. beef, the fact of the matter is still that U.S. beef sold out of stores in a matter of a couple days.
So the question is who was harmed here? Lotte Mart. So if you all are going to moan and groan, then you should moan and groan for Lotte Mart.
Now I know what you’re thinking…but but…Brendon’s argument is against the government and law enforcement standards. But if you try to make that argument, you still fail. Remember that American beef was allowed to come here, and was made a precondition of FTA negotiations. So the United States received benefits JUST FROM NEGOTIATING the FTA. The FTA has not been ratified yet, so Korea still hasn’t gained anything. Bottomline here is that there is little grounds for whining about Anti-Americanism as it relates to this incident.
You’re done, Ut Videam.
Strawman? No strawman here. The only straw here is the straw in your head.
@ Brendon Carr
If YoungRocco2 is right about one thing, it’s that the statistics you provide is a bit misleading and kinda unreliable (umm… it’s an editorial, and it’s written to promote some public program Chosunilbo is starting).
“Consumption of books in major chains = readership” is not really accurate. The equation is ignoring libraries, local book rental stores (where, when I was back in Korea, I got most of my books from), internet orders, internet-based literature, “Hey, can I borrow that book”,… list goes on. If only books from Borders or Barnes & Noble counted, then I have read precisely 4 books in past 11 years.
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