Also on the FTA front, Alan Tonelson of the U.S. Business & Industry Educational Foundation has, ahem, issues with the KORUS FTA.
The money shot?
The biggest problem with the Korea FTA, however, concerns the Bush administration’s reluctance to acknowledge the real nature of the Korean economy. It’s best seen not as a system shielded by hundreds or thousands of discrete tariff and even non-tariff barriers that, however vexing, can be meaningfully opened by canny American diplomats. Instead, the Korean system is best seen as one gigantic, all-embracing trade barrier whose fundamental purpose is to disadvantage foreign competitors, and whose specific forms at any given time are limited only by the human imagination.
(HT to One Free Korea)
56 Comments
Tonelson forgot to mention the role of the local media in the system he describes.
BBC had an interesting story on the 10th anniversary of the Asian financial meltdown (or “IMF crisis” as they called it in S.K.). A Daewoo employee who was laid off then got his job back when GM bought the company said at first he didn’t like the idea that a foreign company owned Daewoo because it would “take the national wealth” out of Korea.
That says a lot about the mentality in Fortress Korea (politicians here say similar things). People think it’s “uri money” and resent foreign companies’ profit on investment, a core part of doing business.
I’ve never read so much about the evils of having a trade deficit with another country as I have since I came to Korea.
As for the tariffs…The South Korean government charges whatever amount of duty that the WTO has ordered them to (typically 8% on most items) and then slaps you with an additional 12% in Korean sales taxes and handling fees. So, yeah, the Korean economy relies heavily on protectionism.
I wouldn’t attribute it to nationalism. Koreans are no more or no less nationalistic than Americans.
I’m as down with Yankee bashing as the next canuck, but the claim that Koreans and Americans are equally nationalistic is totally fucking bonkers. And for one good reason: Korean race and nationality are one and the same. To love your country is to love your race (the Amazing Race, as the Yangpa humorously put it).
Americans love their country, as do Canadians and the rest, but Koreans take it to a whole other level.
“I wouldn’t attribute it to nationalism. Koreans are no more or no less nationalistic than Americans.”
Time to get off the Soju my friend. The mere fact that I have never met anyone in America that finds it necessary to eat hot dogs with every meal or adorn colonial attire (except on Halloween) leads me to question the reasoning that has led you to this conclusion.
There is no point discussing who is more nationalistic. I’ve lived in 7 nations now (including the two in question) and you would have to be retarded or high (or both) to believe that Yanks and Koreans are equally nationalistic.
Fine. Moving on.
The article is excellent. I hope more people in the US (and elsewhere) are starting to think like that. Korea must no longer be allowed the double standard it now has. It isn’t acceptable for racist Korea to get all the preferential treatment in the world and the turn around and be, well, racist Korea. If they want internationalism and trade etc they are going to have to embrace both ends.
I’m not sure racism is behind the trade issues here. I’d call it chauvinism or nativism, maybe — and, above all, mercantilism of a pervasive degree pioneered by the folks at MITI in Japan and copied by Park Chung-hee. In Japan, it really only started to fade when enough people of all social strata traveled abroad and saw the glaring price disparities. Oddly enough, when China was pondering Robert Zoellick’s key 2005 speech urging Beijing to be a “responsible stakeholder”, his use of the word “mercantilism” apparently puzzled the Chinese. When they looked up/translated that word, they couldn’t see what was wrong with those practices.
“I wouldn’t attribute it to nationalism. Koreans are no more or no less nationalistic than Americans.”
–SomeguyinKorea
You’re right on the money. Koreans are not any more or less nationalistic than Americans.
Sure, there are alot of American college kids who, in between puffs on the weed pipe, prattle about how America is the center of all the world’s problems. However, when these same kids enter the workforce, they quickly return to towing the line on “America is number 1!”
Not that there is anything wrong with that. Loving one’s country is a good thing.
But we gotta be honest here. When these folks go around whining about Korea’s excessive nationalism, they’re trying to imply that their own country has an “appropriate” level of nationalism. They’re saying their country is superior, because they don’t think it’s superior.
This would be like someone saying, “Look at me! I’m so great because I’m so humble.”
An obvious self-contradiction.
Too bad most of these guys on Marmot’s can’t see it.
P.S. Is Korea’s trade policy partially protectionist? Sure. No country ever got rich by riding trade deficits.
With such swashbuckling sophistry, our Young Rocco could be a Hankyoreh or even a Rodong Sinmun editorialist.
After considering this issue for an additional 3o seconds, I am certain my county (America) and Korea both have totally “appropriate” and equal levels of nationalism. In fact, Korea and America are almost exactly identical countries in each and every way. There really is no note worthy difference in the food, politics, language, people or history. Korea and America are absolutely equal in every way. To say otherwise would imply superiority.
Are Americans nationalistic? Yes. Will any of us be setting ourselves on fire in an uncontrollable rage of nationalism anytime soon? Don’t think so.
SomeGuyinaWell, Now you did it. You’ve got Young and Rococco on your side.
I don’t think there is any appropriate level of nationalism. Religion is for the masses, nationalism is for the very, very dumb. I’m from Canada but I don’t give two shits about Canada. But it is a great passport to hold.
Koreans link race and nation. That is both dangerous and annoying. Shall we discuss other states in history that have done the same thing?
But the other poster is right. Their trade policies are classic mercantilism. Their racism and economic policies have points of contact but generally Koreans are just victims to powerful individuals who want to protect their power.
Trade liberalization would benefit the masses at the expense of the elite, so the elite block liberalization and use their media to convince the (already racist and xenophobic) population that liberalization is a bad thing.
The only thing that can save Koreans from themselves is massive internationalization. Not just with trade, but ideas and people as well. Otherwise they will whip themselves into a “dukdo” like hysteria every year and eventually China, Japan, Russia or the Norks will swat the obnoxious brats into their proper place. While I would get a perverse pleasure from that, it wouldn’t be in the Koreans best interest.
#8: “No country ever got rich by riding trade deficits.”
So, the U.S., which has had trade deficits for three decades, isn’t rich?
The “trade deficit” is likely the most misunderstood economic concept. If it was called a “capital surplus”, which is a better description, the idiot masses would be in favor of it. But the word “deficit” brings negative emotions.
http://www.independent.org/new.....sp?id=1832
I’d be more sparing with the word “racism” here. Ethnocentrism isn’t all that uncommon, unfortunately, in monoracial (or nearly monoracial) societies.
Korea learned to become a nation by copying the West, but as with so many other things it views nationalism through the distorting lens of race (leaving aside that the “Korean race” is another recent fabrication).
Regarding the OP, this sometimes over-the-top nationalism can sometimes hurt Korea, as it did when people naively donated their gold to the government during the Asian financial crisis rather than demanding the heads of the chaebol owners who recklessly led the country to the brink of economic collapse.
Along with the closed market, the average Korean has had to put up with market collusion and overpriced, subpar goods, getting shafted in the name of “uri nara.”
Sorry dude, but believing that your people are genetically superior to others fits any reasonable definition of racism.
An interesting piece, but it doesn’t take more than two seconds of looking around that site to learn their agenda. Probably not a “fair and balanced” view, if that phrase has any real meaning after hijacked by foxnews.
Korea’s nationalism has been of great benefit to the nation as a whole, I believe. Without a strong sense of pride in Korea as a nation, it’s doubtful the average Korean would have worked as hard as he or she did to bring Korea so far in just 54 short years.
However, the racial component is unfortunate. By equating nation with race, Koreans are automatically excluding contributions from people of other races who would like to contribute to the future prosperity and benefit of Korea.
As for everyone not accepting “a rising tide floats all boats”, that happens everywhere. Just look at the U.S. (my home), where it’s very easy to win votes by pandering to protectionist unions (and much of the general population, for that matter.)
Korean politicians are very much subject to the will of the people, so protectionism is borne more from ignorant self-interest than from selfless nationalism, I believe. This is not so different than the U.S..
However, I agree with many of you that argue that Korea must become more international in terms of trade and racial tolerance to prosper (and perhaps survive !) in the future.
One more thing I want to add:
I actually prefer living in a country where people generally place family, group, and nation relatively higher and self relatively lower versus my home country, the U.S..
The frequency at which people would look out only for #1 in the U.S. was too much. It wasn’t/isn’t vastly different than Korea, but it is enough to be noticable, in my opinion. Then again, that’s just anecdotal based upon my unique experiences.
Sure, there are many major and minor problems with Korea, but greater social awareness is generally a good thing, IMHO.
#21 - A big resounding “Amen!” to that.
You err in referring to the nature of Korean nationalism. So, is Korean any more or any less nationalistic than the US?
You’d say it isn’t if you were a Yankee or a Canadian who’s been kicked once or twice bellow the bible-belt.
Do I need to link to the July 4th thead? Does ‘God bless America’ ring a bell?
The fact of the matter is that Americans are very nationalistic, and yet they have relatively open trade relations with others. Korea is simply stuck in the mindset that it is a developing country that needs to protect its industries from the predatory richer ones.
I don’t think anybody said Americans aren’t nationalistic. That is both a stupid thing to say and a false argument (you are trying to change the terms of the discussion). But Korean nationalism is an altogether different beast because of the state-race link. Accept that and move on.
“Korea’s nationalism has been of great benefit to the nation as a whole, I believe. Without a strong sense of pride in Korea as a nation, it’s doubtful the average Korean would have worked as hard as he or she did to bring Korea so far in just 54 short years.”
Just silly. Koreans grew not because of their nationalism but because of favorable terms of trade granted to them by the Great Satan. Same for Japan and now China. Being able to sell to the world’s richest market while not importing is a very useful tool for development. I’m sorry to burst the Korean racist bubble, but had the Americans demanded reciprocity in their trading relations with Korea the Koreans will still be taking their daily dump in a ditch.
The romantic myths that all nations tell themselves (like the idea that Korea developed because the people just tried really hard) are always and everywhere wrong. Canada, my home, is particularly prone to this affliction (a nation of peace-keepers, polite etc etc). Total bullshit.
“The fact of the matter is that Americans are very nationalistic…”
It’s been extreme since 9/11.
So stupid.
A comment can’t be made about Korea without Koreans saying “oh yeah! Well in America….
Americans being nationalistic, which they certainly are (as are all others) is accepted. We all know that. Le Duh. Now, accept that Koreans connect race and state and, again, move on. This tit for tat is just immature. Not everything has to be a comparison with “X” and America.
And who cares who is more nationalistic? Nationalism is everywhere bad and idiotic. We are talking degrees of idiocy.
Do you have a problem with me saying that?
Saying what? That Americans are nationalistic? No.
Maybe every thread on every site for the rest of time can include a few posts about American nationalism eh? Would you be up for the task?
“Maybe every thread on every site for the rest of time can include a few posts about American nationalism eh? Would you be up for the task?”
Have I posted any American nationalism thing before? You’re whining to a wrong person, while you can’t dare to do that to the others.
“while you can’t dare to do that to the others.”
Do what? To who? Why? ?
“But Korean nationalism is an altogether different beast because of the state-race link. Accept that and move on.”
?????
Thanks for agreeing with me.
When did I ever discuss the nature of Korean nationalism except to point out that it’s irrelevant to my point?
“You err in referring to the nature of Korean nationalism.”
Unless you still don’t get it, I was comparing their respective types of nationalism, but the degree to which they exist.
…and therefore, I was pointing out that the Korean government’s protectionist application of trade barriers has little to do with Korean nationalism…..Just reread my previous posts.
the Korean government’s protectionist application of trade barriers has little to do with Korean nationalism…
The Korean trade bureaucrats who go into print with poems describing trade as war, the prosecutors who are bending or disregarding laws and treaties to get Lone Star, the army of reporters and editors who provide their readers with only Korea, Inc.’s side of the dispute and the civic groups who pull all kinds of xenophobic stunts would be insulted by your assessment of their actions.
I hate to wade into this stupid reverse pissing contest, but since some Canadian guy in Korea has declared himself judge and jury on the matter, I have to ask him, for starters, how he compares Tokdo fever with US positions on the multiple US-Canadian territorial disputes:
Machias Seal Island (Maine / New Brunswick)
North Rock (Maine / New Brunswick)
Strait of Juan de Fuca (Washington / British Columbia)
Dixon Entrance (Alaska / British Columbia)
Yukon–Alaska dispute, Beaufort Sea (Alaska / Yukon)
Northwest Passage
Like easily 200+ million of my fellow nationalists, I had to google just to confirm these disputes existed and I don’t particularly know or care about the merits of the US position or the outcome of the dispute. I’d venture that there is not a single sentient Korean about which you can say that regarding Tokdo.
And I’d venture that if you compared US-Korean attitudes across a battery of issues and topics, it would be the same stark comparison. A Jay Leno joke about dog meat becomes a national issue denounced in the National Assembly, a whole Korean movement with “Fuckin USA” as its anthem — with school children coached to write Death to America or somesuch in thir own blood — barely rates attention outside of a few blogs and the Congressmen they personally write to, Apollo Ohno gets death threats from the netizen mob and his reaction in the US is to express gratitude that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE is paying attention to his obscure sport.
Any outsider who has spent a year or two in Korea could go on for days like this (read or reread some of the Yangpa’s juiciest posts) and no rote recitation of “Yeah, what about Freedom Fries?” would change the equation.
I for one welcome our northern Igloo loving maple leaf overlords and believe they are free to have all of the above mentioned territories. In exchange, please send Canadian Beaver. Thanks
I’m disappointed. Whatever happened to that “Fifty-Four Forty or Fight” Spirit?
“I’d be more sparing with the word “racism” here. “
Lest you-know-who clutter up this thread with his socioethnobabble.
I’m disappointed. Whatever happened to that “Fifty-Four Forty or Fight” Spirit?
I wanted to go to the Strait of Juan de Fuca, cover myself with bees and jump on the Canadian flag, but:
1) We’re almost out of honey bees here in the USA.
2) I don’t know where de Fuca that contested waterway is.
Gentlemen:
Let’s get down to business.
“With such swashbuckling sophistry, our Young Rocco could be a Hankyoreh or even a Rodong Sinmun editorialist.”
–Slim
Flattery will get you nowhere, my friend. I suggest you learn how to form cogent arguments. It’ll get you much further than mere name calling.
“Are Americans nationalistic? Yes. Will any of us be setting ourselves on fire in an uncontrollable rage of nationalism anytime soon?”
–Creo
People have different ways of expressing nationalism. Some express it by self-immolation. Other express it by invading sovereign muslim coutries in the name of spreading democracy. Apples and oranges, but both are fruits.
“Koreans link race and nation. That is both dangerous and annoying. Shall we discuss other states in history that have done the same thing?”
–Tambe
Your discussion of race, albeit intriguing, really doesn’t add anything to the discussion of nationalism. They are two separate entities. Case in point, A white male from the United States may love the U.S., but hate blacks from the U.S. In this instance, racism and nationalism are at odds. On the other hand, a Korean born and raised in Korea, may prefer hiring North Koreans over Bangledeshi’s born and raised in Korea. In this instance, again, racism and nationalism are at odds. You can’t really make a general statement about racism contributing to nationalism because race is international, whereas nationalism is intra-national.
In other words save the “Koreans are racist” meme for another thread.
“A comment can’t be made about Korea without Koreans saying “oh yeah! Well in America….”
–Tambe
What’s the matter? Can’t take the heat?
“Just silly. Koreans grew not because of their nationalism but because of favorable terms of trade granted to them by the Great Satan”
–Tambe
Your understanding of economics is undeveloped. Favorable terms of trade are not a guarantee of economic development. A farmer who makes it to the market is not guaranteed a profit.
The American market, because it is so open, is extremely competitive. In cars, Korea has to compete against Germany, Japan, the United States and Japan. In electronics, Korea competes against the United States, Germany, Japan, and China. In shipbuilding, Korea competes against England, Japan and China. All of these countries are homes to companies that are extremely competitive. Korean companies did not become competitive overnight. They all had to fight their way tooth and nail to the top by developing products that the world wanted to buy. It takes a lot more than ports to New York to build an economy.
“US positions on the multiple US-Canadian territorial disputes”
Like, who cares? Really.
US-Canadian territorial disputes are no more severe or important than the arguments I would have with my younger brother in the back seat of the car because his knee ‘crossed over the line’.
I operate by the standard definitions of “cogent” and “sophistry” — although I’m open to debating whether it is really sophistry if one actually believes the lame, selective arguments and non sequiturs one spouts.
Oh, and you forgot Canada’s territorial dispute with Denmark (actually, Denmark is doing all the disputing…Canadians make funny websites about it).
http://www.radiofreehansisland.com/
http://www.freehansisland.com/
As one blogger said, “Well, it’s not as if it’s called Gordon Island”…”It’s barely large enough to build two Tim Horton’s on it.”
Like, who cares? Really.
My point exactly, someguy.
#41
“I wanted to go to the Strait of Juan de Fuca, cover myself with bees and jump on the Canadian flag”
Short memory? You need to go to bed. Looks like it’s past your bedtime.
Nah. Apples and potatoes, more like. Neocon messianism is at best distantly related to nationalism. In the former, an abstract idea is held supreme; in the latter, it’s 우리 나라 uber alles.
Or perhaps Tambe loathes the tu quoque logical fallacy so often employed in these parts. As has been pointed out so many times, it is a fallacy because it redounds neither to the truth or falsity of disputed facts, nor to the validity of an argument. It’s a deflection, a diversionary tactic.
What the hell are you talking about, someguy? I’m sure you are missing the point (again), but missing it by such a wide margin that I can’t for the life of me figure out what point you are missing. (And for the record, will ALL due respect, since you apparently don’t get out much in Korea, you’re posting at/past bedtime in Asia; I’m wasting my US EST lunch hour dealing with your foolishness.)
“I’m wasting my US EST lunch hour dealing with your foolishness”
Did you forget to turn your clock ahead back in March?
Let me spell this out to you in simple words: get a sense of humor.
You said…
“I operate by the standard definitions of “cogent” and “sophistry””
But, a few minutes before you spoke of covering yourself in bees and jumping on the Canadian flag, which would contradict that statement if it were to be taken literally–which I wasn’t since it was a joke.
“As has been pointed out so many times, it is a fallacy because it redounds neither to the truth or falsity of disputed facts, nor to the validity of an argument”
–Ut Videam
Yawn. But it does “redound” as to whether the speaker is worth listening to. Remove the moat in your own eye and all that. Ut Videam, my friend, We simply don’t have time or energy to listen to people who spew nonsense. You and your buddies shoud have the humility to clean your own houses before you tell someone else to clean his.
“In the former, an abstract idea is held supreme; in the latter, it’s 우리 나라 uber alles.”
–Ut Videam.
For a guy spouting nonsense on a blog, American exceptionalism is certainly abstract.
For a kid in Baghdad…, well, let’s just say that he won’t go to bed at night thinking “‘Democracy’ occupied my country and dropped bombs on my friends.”
#51 - Nor will he think that American nationalism did it, yet that’s what you blamed above.
Nor have I ever advocated “American exceptionalism.” Now you’re just putting words into my mouth. More bad debating, not to mention bad manners—but par for the course from you.
You’re pretty impressed with yourself, Rocco, but I can just about guarantee that you’re the only one.
Oh, and #50 - It’s “mote” in your eye.
We Koreans are more patriotic (read naitonalistic) than the Yanks because welove are people, one people, one strong, pure, proud Korean people^^ Thanks.
Define “pure”.
Or “strong”, for that matter.
yourbutt,
Is “pure” a justification for racism ? If not, how do you keep the Korean race “pure” ?
I thought that “yourbutt” (whoever would wish to call himself that way) was trying to be ironc. Maybe I’m mistaken…