Get the barf bags ready — reports Yonhap:
A famous South Korean director said Wednesday he will make a film of the life of a Korean-American who spent almost eight years in a U.S. prison for spying for Korea to explain his agony stemming from the power politics of the two allies.”
How about his agony stemming from being a piece of shit who betrayed his adopted nation?
The famous director, BTW, is Jeong Yun-cheol, who directed the 2005 film “Marathon.”
UPDATE: From Yonhap’s Korean edition:
Director Jeong, who has been working on the scenario for a year, plans to make a film capturing the pain and joys and sorrows Robert Kim had to endure to stick to his conviction of patriotism, centering on his 7 year, 6 month time in prison following his arrest for stealing US intelligence secrets.
His film will also include criticism of the Korean government, which showed no interest in the movement to free Kim from prison, and relook at the Korea-US relationship, which for a long time has been politically unequal.
(HT to reader)
110 Comments
Jeong goes from making a movie about an autistic kid to one about a full-grown imbecile.
#1 lol, maybe Jeong’s got some sort of condition too. I mean, my heart bleeds for the poor traitor.
Really? If say, John Smith moves to Korea, is granted Korean citizenship, granted a security clearance by the Korean government, and then provides classified information to the U.S. government, can he not be punished under Korean law?
Nice turn of phrase.
Well, for some people in Korea there’s ethics, and then there’s “Korean ethics.”
“relook at the Korea-US relationship, which for a long time has been politically unequal” It certainly has been.
Forget about Robert Kim’s treason. The problem is with the people that gave him the clearance in the first place. If the government wants to use people that has hightened ethnocentrism (like Koreans), then they need someone that is particularly senstitive to reading their attitudes.
The US government needs to come to grips with the fact that some people are more ethnocentric that others, that not all people turn spy because of ideology or money, and that race is a priority for some people. Time to end the one size fits all approach to national security.
I’d imagine U.S. security agencies are well aware of the ethnic angle, especially since it comes into play all the time now with native Arabic and Chinese language speakers. There’s only so many checks and balances they can do.
This L.A. Times story on Kim is good (I’m posting the whole thing because it’s archived now):
Unequal Justice: Bitter South Koreans Rally Behind Spy Convicted in U.S.
Defenders call Robert Kim, who gave classified military documents to Seoul, a true patriot.
Barbara Demick - Los Angeles Times - June 8, 2004
SEOUL - It was a case of a little friendly spying among allies.
In 1996, U.S. naval intelligence analyst Robert Kim was arrested for handing over classified documents to South Korea, the country of his birth. After serving seven years of a nine-year prison term for espionage, he was released last week to confinement in his home in Ashburn, Va. But considerable bitterness about the case remains for many South Koreans, who believe that the United States and their own government treated Kim unfairly.
After Kim’s release, bullhorn-toting backers launched a fund-raising campaign on his behalf in the streets of Seoul. The 64-year-old Kim has an Internet fan club, and prayer meetings have been held to support him. South Korean newspapers have run editorials in the last few days extolling his courage.
“The nation owes Robert Kim for giving up his personal safety and career to help his fatherland,” editorialized the English-language Korea Herald on Friday.
The reaction to the case reflects the often-ambivalent emotions of South Koreans, even political conservatives, toward the United States.
“Many Koreans, myself included, believe that America is our closest ally, but there are times that the United States has shown arrogance and hurt Korean pride,” said Lee Woong Jin, a 38-year-old businessman who heads a support group for Kim.
Kim’s defenders hope to raise money to pay off his debts and are petitioning the U.S. government to change the terms of his probation so he can visit South Korea to attend the funeral of his mother, who died last week of a stroke just three days after Kim’s release from prison.
Kim’s case is often compared to that of Jonathan Pollard, a U.S. Navy intelligence analyst who is serving a life sentence for spying for Israel. But his supporters complain that South Korea, unlike Israel, was too intimidated by the U.S. to stand up for Kim.
“Behind the scenes, I think they tried to help … but compared to the Israeli government, the Korean government was relatively passive,” said Kim’s younger brother, Kim Song Gon. The younger Kim is an assemblyman with South Korea’s ruling party. Their late father also served in the National Assembly.
Robert Kim, a naturalized U.S. citizen who moved to the United States in 1967 to attend graduate school, was working as a civilian intelligence analyst for the Navy in 1996 when the FBI arrested him. It charged he had photocopied more than 30 classified military documents and given them to a military attach?with the South Korean Embassy. Many of the documents dealt with the threat posed by communist North Korea.
Faced with overwhelming evidence of his guilt the FBI had installed a hidden camera in his office three months before his arrest Kim pleaded guilty to a charge of conspiracy to gather national defense information. But he was apparently stunned by the severity of the sentence imposed by a federal judge.
In a telephone interview from his home in Ashburn, Kim said he believed he had received an especially harsh sentence because he was foreign born.
“I knew that I violated the rules as a government worker, but no, I did not think it was espionage,” Kim said. “I love my adopted country.”
But in another interview, published last week in a South Korean newspaper, Kim said that he considered himself a Korean above all.
“When the FBI agent asked me why I did such a thing for Korea, I said I would definitely cheer for Korea when Korea goes against the United States in a soccer matches. I do not feel sorry for what I did,” Kim was quoted as saying in Thursday’s editions of Chosun Ilbo.
South Koreans who know Kim said he was naive about the implications of what he was doing. Many of the documents in question were sent by U.S. mail with his return address on the envelope, while others were sent on an office fax.
“I was trying to find out about the true intentions of North Korea, which was our enemy,” said Baek Dong Il, the military attach?who received the illegal documents. “The United States and South Korea had a relationship that was often compared to that of blood brothers. It never crossed our minds that exchanging information [about North Korea] was spying or espionage.”
Baek was demoted after Kim’s arrest and returned to South Korea.
For many South Koreans, it is easy to identify with the personal history of somebody who immigrated to the U.S. but never shed loyalty to his homeland.
“This is the tragedy of a proud Korean who sacrificed everything for his country,” said Park Chang Hyun, a businessman who was plunking money into a collection box last week.
At the time of his arrest, the FBI alleged that Kim hoped to land a South Korean government contract for his younger brother in exchange for the secret documents, but those allegations were never proved.
Choi Jae Han, 24, an office worker who was collecting money for Kim last week, denied any ulterior motive. “He was simply a true patriot,” he said.
Pain = Living among whitey.
Joy = Stabbing whitey in the back.
Sorrow = Getting caught by whitey.
Does the US have the ability to strip a Naturalized Citizen of his US Citizenship? A lot of other countries do that for serious infractions of the law.
Someone mentioned ethics vs korean ethics … are there actually ethics in Korea ??? it always seems to me, that anything goes, along as it benefits ME I saw an article in the papers this week, that under Korean law, lying to the police is not considered an offense. Lying in court is.
The pattern of ideological warfare through misinformation and equivocation in Korean media is once again repeated.
I do not think the public will be sympathetic to this load of crap though there are always the few who will believe anything. Unfortunately, here, entertainment media people will drive the PR on this sort of thing and I doubt the more responsible components of Korean Government can deal with this sort of warfare effectively.
The pro-north/nationalism elements well understand the lessons of “Remember the Maine” and how to wage a war of minds and public opinion.
“anything goes, along as it benefits ME” that’s basically what I meant, but I’m not saying ALL Koreans are this way, Nutizen Kimbab
It’s more like the ethics get mangled by Confusionism and hyper-nationalism, I think.
David Scofield had a good commentary on Kim:
Robert Kim is not a patriot of any country. He is a deeply corrupted American of Korean ethnicity who used his position of trust within the United States government to further his own agenda. He made it known to his South Korean handlers that he would be more than happy to violate both laws and any remaining ethics or morals he may have had in order to build trust and buy him the credibility necessary to broker even larger, more lucrative illegal transactions in the future.
The nation’s reaction to Kim and the insistence that he was somehow noble in his quest to enrich himself through espionage is absurd and deals a further blow to what remains of the “future of the alliance.”
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FF12Dg04.html
“I saw an article in the papers this week, that under Korean law, lying to the police is not considered an offense. Lying in court is.”
Lying in court is an offense of perjury because the lie is a sworn statement made under oath. Even in the U.S., (verbal) lying to the police itself is not an offense under the criminal laws in most or all states. The statement may be used against an arrestee as evidence only after the Miranda warning is given to him.
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“His film will also include criticism of the Korean government, which showed no interest in the movement to free Kim from prison, and relook at the Korea-US relationship, which for a long time has been politically unequal.”
Robert Kim is an American citizen, right? I wonder if the movie will mention that Robert Kim, if he has indeed American citizenship, was made to renounce his Korean citizenship by the South Korean government the moment he turned 18. I guess not, that would ruin the movie. Kind of hard to make him into some kind of Korean martyr/patriot when he gave up his citizenship.
PS. The Korean government makes us get a visa every year for his foreign passport even though he has a right to be here by birth and nationality. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say they are using dirty tricks to pressure us to drop his foreign passport.
I don’t approve of the movie which seems quite unresearched to say the least. But it makes me wonder. If I were in Robert Kim’s situation, what would I do? I certainly wouldn’t commit treason, break the laws, backstab or yadda yadda for the sake of personal financial gain. Never. It’s morally condemnable and sends out the wrong message. A lot is at stake.
But if, say, I were the very author of some such technologies and had a legitimate choice of using this technology either for the benefit of America or for the benefit of Korea, I’d most likely go for the latter. Am I a sell out then? America is a weird, imperfect place in the sense that its ideological individualism is both the starting point and terminus of its operations as a self-sustaining political organization; ie individuals may desire to fight for America to the extent that it embodies a certain set of grand moral principle, yet it’s these principles that, ultimatly, dissolves group cohesion… in favor of something like capitalism, individual profit - “The American Dream”. It’s in the paradoxical framework of this that American has a tendency to become a large, rather mechanical place of residence– of use rather than commitment. Whereas Korea to me would represent more than a system of government, a peninsula or so, and is something quite personal. Thus the choice is: personal homeland vs an impersonal place of work. Everything else being equal chances are I’d side with the former. (And besides that I have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog, and have always routed for them.)
Then again Koreans are not only a minority in the qualitative sense of -”not anglo saxon white like the fore fathers”- they are also very much a minority in quantity, and make up less than .06 % (?) of the total American population and, furthermore, are still in the rough process of assimiliating culturally into America or its history. Until Koreans can speak of 3rd, 4th or 5th generations - and perhaps when there is a larger number of them or other Asians- America is, perhaps sadly, just a place. That said, I can sympathize with the conservative, Fox News, Hulk Hogan types who would have a much stronger, tighter sense of entitlement to the country than the average kyopo would. I do not censure them for that sense of entitlement.
I don’t think that’s true for everyone.
I think it is true for people who’s mentality is to hop over to the U.S. to pop out a kid, or to just try to make some money.
For those of us who believe in the ideals our own forefathers founded the U.S. on, who believe that these ideals live, who believe that we should strive to obtain them even when our own leaders fall short, then there is a commitment. After all, it is our home.
I do appreciate your honesty. It is nice to have some validation, from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, of what I have been saying all along.
Which is? (Just so there’s no confusion)
I don’t see that anyone’s confused.
“It’s in the paradoxical framework of this that American has a tendency to become a large, rather mechanical place of residence– of use rather than commitment. (abcdefg)
I don’t think that’s true for everyone.(dogbert)”
Indeed. Most of us probably know naturalized Americans who love their adopted country dearly. I recall a story told to me by a former KATUSA in Korea, who worked alongside a naturalized Filipina USFK soldier. He wondered whether as a native of the Philippines, she could really feel patriotic towards the US. After many conversations with her, he became convinced that she really did cherish being American, and it changed his thinking about patriotism and about our nation of immigrants.
Definitely one of the best things about my university teaching job in Korea was talking with so many students over the years. I learned much more from them than they did from me.
Let’s remember that abcdefg speaks for himself/herself, not the entire Korean-American community. Blogger James Na and commenter Baduk are so patriotic they must have been born on the Fourth of July. It is a strong testament to lure of America’s open and flexible identity that so many naturalized Americans and Americans born of foreign parents really do love our country as much as we unhyphenated Americans whose foreign roots have withered.
“Until Koreans can speak of 3rd, 4th or 5th generations - and perhaps when there is a larger number of them or other Asians - America is, perhaps sadly, just a place.”
Sad indeed. I can understand a recent immigrant still having loyalty to another country, but I grew up with plenty of 1st gen immigrants (japanese, Indian, Italian), and the vast majority of them considered themselves Australians 1st. Sports (cricket, footbal) would sometimes see some split loyalties if their parent’s country was playing, but otherwise they are all loyal to their country of birth. But split loyalties, (or pro ethnic motherland) after 3 or 4 generations? That starts to get bizarre - and disturbing. Ethnocentrism is a polite word for such stubborn ethnic apartheid - racism is perhaps more apt. What use do western countries have for people who can’t be loyal after 4 generations?
I know it’s hard for westerners (myself included) getting our heads around the whole ethnic patriotism, blood is thicker than water thing, but it seems almost impossible for Koreans to get their heads around the possibility of a reverse situation. It’s an incredibly selfish prism to view the world through.
thus his conviction of patriotism for sticking to his blood brothers, rather than his conviction of treason for stabbing his adopted country in the back.
But here’s the clincher: “I’d like my actions to be defined as arising from a love for the people, rather than a love for the government,” he said, suggesting a different definition of patriotism, from the Korean translation of ‘eh-gook-shim’ to ‘eh-jok-shim’, ‘gook’ meaning ‘nation’ and ‘jok’ meaning ‘people’.
Does he seriously think Canadians, Australians, Americans are bound by love for their government? We’re also bound, like Koreans are, by love for the people - it’s just that most of us don’t make it a prerequisite that those people have the same color skin and eyes. We are also bound by the land, by the culture (though it might be young and quickly changing) and by our shared history (even though some have shared it longer than others.) Get it?
Jeong and his fans need to have a good look at the hurt guys like Kim have done to their adopted countries and try to get a better handle on what constitutes loyalty in multi-cultural societies. Patriotism comes in many different shapes and forms but treachery is pretty easy to define.
BTW way I wonder if they’re planing to release the flick in the states. I can see a feel-good story about a hard-done-by traitor really raking it in at the box-office.
Prior to being busted I wonder whether Kim was Hooah! patriotic when speaking too? Often the surface conceals the substance.
“I’m not sayin’…I’m just sayin’.” - words of wisdom from the NBA.
I’ll give some kudos to a-g for his honesty, though I certainly don’t see any need for him and his devious ilk in America. The pledge of citizenship means nothing to them. And yes, there needs to a better way to ferret out the poseurs from the sincere.
Well spoken, hoju_saram and seouldout !
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Ask Robert Kim.
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Fantasy:
That’s cool, I understand. I am a Korean-American myself, I was born and raised in America, and I understand both sides of the “controversy.” No matter what angle you look from on Robert Kim’s case, he was wrong. But that doesn’t really address the issue of anti-gyopo sentiment on this site.
Gyopos, as all ethnic peoples living abroad are many times placed in positions that Korean nationals or White Americans do not usually face, which is probably why they may be more sensitive to certain issues, or why Korean nationals and White Americans may be less sensitive to certain issues.
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#5’s comment was typically idiotic, especially the part about looking at an American’s Korean ethnicity as a possible barrier to US government employment. I know PLENTY of Korean-Americans serving the CIA and State Dept. now who handle VERY delicate security matters. Should they be fired because of their ethnicity?
Robert Kim was/is a traitor. Plain and simple. And he is being punished appropriately. How a Korean film director views him doesn’t mean squat to the US. Furthermore, why are WE making a big deal of it? It’d be like if a Korean film director made a sympathetic movie about Benedict Arnold.
Robert Kim, the American, is being punished in America. Let’s leave it at that. Comments like #5 show that some people, unfortunately, will use this issue to further their racist agenda.
‘I’ll give some kudos to a-g for his honesty, though I certainly don’t see any need for him and his devious ilk in America.’
Frankly, although I live in Korea, I’ve never seriously entertained the idea of becoming a Korean citizen. Not only is this because, as an American citizen, I have emotional bonds and legally provided freedoms which are very important to me; as a non-ethnically Korean living in Korea, I have never felt that government or society in general accepted me as equal. Instead, I’ve focused on working and maintaining friendships, but I’ve never pretended to be anything that I’m not.
By contrast, Robert Kim pretended to belong the Land of Opportunity, but - by his own admission - actually didn’t. Instead, he lived there and took advantage of his position to enrich himself and the Republic of Korea at the expense and risk of a nation which had offered and granted him citizenship.
Commenter abcdefg wrote that
and it’s possible that Robert Kim felt the same. Certainly Kim had no reason except personal advantage in seeking citizenship and a job with the CIA. There were many alternatives available to him, not the least of which would have been permanent residency and a less security-sensitive form of employment.
There is nothing noble in what he did. He’s only a liar to those Americans who trusted him, just as he was a liar to Koreans when he took the oath of citizenship with the US.
Disgusting…. Robert Kim - one of my all time favorites. If any of the expats who have changed their nationalities to Korean should commit a crime for their “birth nations” - would the Korean government understand? I fully agree with Shaka - the problem lies with the US for granting him the security clearance….
“It is nice to have some validation, from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, of what I have been saying all along.”
Please clarify. I hope it’s not about the entire Korean-American race. As I’ve stated, there are PLENY of Korean-Americans I know serving at the State Dept. and CIA (whom I’ve met as I live in Washington, DC) as well as many I am friends with serving in the US military (some about to go back to Iraq). So there was one traitor of Korean descent. How many Americans of Anglo descent have been traitors? More than one.
Meanwhile, there you are in Korea…..spending your time leaving comments on blogs about the oh-so-bad kyopo and thinking you’re doing right by the good ol’ USA.
Stay there, dogbert. Stay there. Leave it to us Americans, including Korean-Americans, to contribute to America’s continued greatness. Stay there in Korea. Please. You’ll do less damage over there.
Robert Neff,
You may agree with some parts of #5, but I hope you don’t agree with him that one’s Korean ethnicity should keep one from being employed.
If that’s what you believe, you’ll have to see a LOT of Korean-Americans here in DC (and abroad) serving the State Dept, the CIA, and the US Armed Forces, who need to be fired….simply because of their ethnicity.
We’ve had quite a few white American traitors (Ames, the Rosenbergs, etc.) but I don’t see a call to ban whites from high-clearance jobs in the gov’t. Now, we had ONE Korean-American traitor….and the call for kyopo blood is in the air.
davelee,
I think that you’ll find irrational attitudes - such as equating the actions of one man to represent the attitudes of an entire group - just about everywhere, and not only on this blog. Likewise, there are many here who are well-reasoned and well-intentioned. Just sort out the crap from the rest and you should be alright. Anyway, that’s what I do.
“Robert Kim, the American, is being punished in America.”
No. He WAS punished. He has been unrepentant and managed to pay off his debts and squirrel away a wad of cash by exploiting Koreans’ aejokshim. One wonders why he chooses to remain in the US rather than repatriate to a country that venerates him as a hero. The real suckers aren’t Uncle Sam or the American people, but those foolish Koreans who threw money at him. Robert Kim has played the Korean people like a violin.
@ Sonagi, you win! Well put.
#39: Well said. The beef on this site is not with gyopos per se, but with the Korean veneration of this waste of skin and this guy’s obvious play of the fatherland card when all else failed. Grand Clonemeister Hwang has been playing from the same playbook.
Also, as someone who has had a clearance this guy should have done way, way more time, if for nothing else than to send a message to would be violators of that sacred trust.
And to the guy with the alphabet name: Please go back to Korea. If you think America is only about making money, then you have completely missed the point. Return now.
Wedge,
Uh, I was addressing comments 5 and 16. So, wedge, I must respectfully disagree with your comment “The beef on this site is not with gyopos per se….”
Robert Kim is scum. I don’t think ANYONE on this blog disagrees with that. I just hate the generalizations about a whole race of people that have resulted. And yes, they have been made if you look over some of the comments, wedge.
I wrote:
“Robert Kim, the American, is being punished in America.”
Sonagi wrote:
“No. He WAS punished. ”
Okay, he WAS punished. He’s bad. We all agree.
“And to the guy with the alphabet name: Please go back to Korea. If you think America is only about making money, then you have completely missed the point. Return now.”
I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ll respond anyway. Are there supposed to be specific reasons for wanting to come to the US? How about to, uh, Korea? I’m sure there were many Americans with money on the mind when they chose to come to Korea. Not saying ALL Americans came to Korea just to make money, but there are those Americans with that sole goal. Should they leave also? Of course, I am not speaking of those in the US Armed Forces.
Read what I wrote again or enroll in an ESL class. I was saying that ethnocentricity was one of the factors that needed to be taken into account when employing people, in particular people from groups noted for ethnocentricity, like Koreans. There have been white traitors that were motivated by greed or ideology, but as far as I know there are no white traitors that did it for racial reasons, like Robert Kim, which is why if the US government is to use people like that it needs to take those factors into account. In addition, they need to employ people capable of understanding Koreans to interview them when they go for clearance interviews, because a lot of subliminal information can be lost without the appropriate cultural understanding. I am sure Robert Kim would have been stopped before he could do damage had that happened. If I was talking about all Korean Americans being fired I wouldn’t even bother talking about hiring practices.
Ask yourself if you would be a security risk. I think I know the answer.
i think robert kim is one greedy bastard. robert is no patriot. his main motivation, just like many other spies, is money. i wonder how much he will get paid for the movie deal.
I think it is true for people who’s mentality is to hop over to the U.S. to pop out a kid, or to just try to make some money.
the deeper more pressing issue is whether that’s a reprehensible thing. from a psychological point of view, i think it’s just a natural thing. namely, the nature of the tax-paying immigrant in america from a country that has no long sustained history of immigrants from said country in america, is going to be somewhat practical by default. these people have no personal connection, no history, no nothing in america. whereas this connection, would be natural for other people, the fox-news “whitey” for instance. as it is, nowadays immigrants don’t go to america simply because it is america - unless they’re cuban refugees or something. otherwise it’s use, opportunity, hard work, individual talent, and taxes.
For those of us who believe in the ideals our own forefathers founded the U.S. on, who believe that these ideals live, who believe that we should strive to obtain them even when our own leaders fall short, then there is a commitment. After all, it is our home.
the philosophical point, i think, is that these ideals are not properly american or are not exclusively american. they are instantiated by america and can be instantiated by other countries. being a believer of such ideals, therefore, does not entail the full indoctrination of absolute american patriotism. moreover, it’s easy to view america as one’s home and view the forefathers in posessive terms (”our forefathers”) if you’re a white american. but the simple point is that, psychologically, it’s not going to be automatically the same for immigrants, and i don’t believe we ought censure them for it. reprimanding this psychology is absolutely ridiculous, it’s even childish.
i can grant that the criticism given by a few here TO ME may apply to naturalized citizens, those who actively seek or choose to become naturalized. but it doesn’t apply to anyone else. the conclusion of “then go back to korea” is about the stupidest thing i’ve read since comment 5.
i’ll add that how exclusive or americancentric america’s great ideals seem is going to depend on how much you believe what you’ve learned about the country through gradeschool. some people call this education propaganda — the american liberals sometimes do, the french sometimes do. (i don’t, btw. i still have a rather “ellis island” romanticist view of this part of the world and don’t entirely dismiss the lingo of freedom and the american way when i read about it as a justification for america’s current international affairs.)
the hinge, however, is to understand that citizenship is not quite the same as a moral sphere. the laws sustaining a country are not identical to the laws of good vs evil. and so sometimes how one conducts oneself as a citizen is just a matter of law and politics which shouldn’t be criticized outside of political terms. if i were a citizen of, say, cuba and betrayed it then i am most certainly a traitor and a bad citizen. but that’s not automatically tantamount to a moral criminal.
the knee-jerk patriots, those on this blog for whom kyopos make up a special psychological class of boogie men, need to understand that i don’t support robert lee. rather my point was that there are situations where when legitimate, i’d try to help out korea instead of america, and tried to flesh out some of the conceptual background for why and wondered if there were grounds to criticize this. it gets no deeper than that. my comment certainly shouldn’t be taken to be an instance of anti-americanism.
also, having an affection for one’s motherland should not be rebuked on any level. and helping korea out doesn’t mean i am bashing america. not all such cases of choosing to do business with one country means that i have to engage in a zero-sum political game.
It is nice to have some validation, from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, of what I have been saying all along.
as mentioned by the non-idiots here, what i post represents MY VIEWS. i speak on no one else’s behalf, and i’m pretty sure i don’t represent the views of the “G.I. Choe” patriotic K-A’s that i’ve seen.
rather my point was that there are situations where when legitimate, i’d try to help out korea instead of america
This situation wasn’t legitimate so posting what you did post is an invitation for flame IMO.
Asking from curiosity, the “typical view” of the K-A is patriotic to whom, the US or Korea?
Yes, because idiots are prevalent everywhere. I’ll keep that in mind.
Frankly, I think if we placed KA kids on a scale, they would turn out to be a rather “whitewashed” group of people. I can tell this for instance in the way they tend to view social cultural issues. Namely, they are “we, Asian Americans” and think in broad, rather american-centric terms like that. But of course it’s not so simple. KAs are also quite “proud” to be Korean in the ethnic sense and have that bond. But it tends to be heritage thing. I see this same thing everywhere from every body. The Puerto Ricans and Italians, for example, may show pride in their respective groups, but that pride is not exclusive and can even be thought as a kind of unique Americanism.
“I was saying that ethnocentricity was one of the factors that needed to be taken into account when employing people, in particular people from groups noted for ethnocentricity, like Koreans.”
Hmm….exactly WHOM is guilty of ethnocentrism? I for one find you highly ethnocentric and racist. I find a lot of white people ethnocentric. Does that mean the entire white race is???
Furthermore, let’s say, for sake of argument, that Koreans (meaning those in Korea) ARE ethnocentric. How do you then categorize people of Korean descent living in another country as also ethnocentric?? And let me say that you of all people are in NO position to label an entire group of people as racist or ethnocentric.
“There have been white traitors that were motivated by greed or ideology, but as far as I know there are no white traitors that did it for racial reasons, like Robert Kim,”
Regardless of WHAT his reasons for being a traitor to the US were, how do you differentiate Robert Kim from those white traitors??? And how are you so quick to say it’s for “racial” reasons? It was selling out to another country. Period. Quick this sick agenda of implying that Koreans are racist and whites aren’t.
“which is why if the US government is to use people like that it needs to take those factors into account. In addition, they need to employ people capable of understanding Koreans to interview them when they go for clearance interviews, because a lot of subliminal information can be lost without the appropriate cultural understanding. ”
Understanding that you have, huh? That supposedly Koreans as a whole are a racist, ethnocentric people. And this coming from you whom MANY find racist. Funny.
“Ask yourself if you would be a security risk. I think I know the answer.”
No, I won’t ask myself that because I am not a security risk. And if you are trying to imply that I would be, I’d like to hear your reasons behind it. Seriously Matt, give me your reasons. THIS I have to hear.
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I’m Canadian citizen, Korean ethnicity, flew in on a plane when I was 11 and haven’t left since except for some vacations to Korea and US.
Now, I’m hardly the typical Korean (or a person with average moral values for that matter), but I’m of opionion that loyalty to any country or ethnicity is stupid.
I wouldn’t ever do something purely out of patriotism or nationalism. If I lived in Japan-occupied Korea, I’d probably been a collaborator.
If I was in Robert Kim’s position? Wouldn’t have done it, just for the glory of Korea. If someone offered me a bundle of money? Still wouldn’t have done it, but only because there’s too much to lose, not because of any love for my adopted country. A million or two (or any amount of money) for a good chance to spend life in jail? No thanks, I’ll get by.
Take that as you will.
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As opposed to what? White folk who place their financial difficulties, closet homosexual tendencies, etc. above their US citizenship? And just out of curiosity, should we hold Jews up to the same kind of scrutiny because of Jonathan Pollard?
Turn it around on Koreans, fine. But Korean-Americans? Are you suggesting that Americans treat individual ethnic groups in the United States according to the worst tendencies of their respective “Old Countries?”
Yes, and so is everyone else living in the United States in 2007. What’s your point? And he didn’t say that Korean-Americans were the cause of the country’s greatness. He said Americans, including Korean-Americans, were contributing to its continued greatness. That is the responsibility of the current generation of Americans, including Korean-Americans, is it not?
Strangely enough, I know many Westerners here with the same attitude.
Even if this were true, why take what he says and use it to blanket an entire ethnic group of Americans? The same goes for abcdefg’s comments. Just because he says something doesn’t mean the majority of Korean-Americans agree with him.
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Hey DaveLee, just to make it clear (not that I think you’re waiting to hear from me) I was pissed off in the first few comments with R. Kim, the convicted felon who is playing other Koreans for fools with empty appeals to the minjok, and only him.
I don’t get the kyopo bashing stuff on here either….
In Korea though, there are a lot of manipulative people like R. Kim who play on Koreans’ distrust, fear and envy of the U.S. for their own goals. That has a lot to do with how Roh got into office. People here have weird, distorted views of the U.S. based on how they were taught about past events, which included a lot of made-up bullshit by so-called “leftist” teachers. So Kim has supporters like Jeong the director and others who throw money at him, even though Kim is basically just a selfish thief:
“Robert Kim, with a nudge and a wink from the South Korean government, is being portrayed in all media sources, left, right and center, as a patriot who selflessly sacrificed for his homeland. There has been no discussion of his financial problems: the US$200,000 in credit-card debt the assistant U.S. attorney asserted during Kim’s bail hearing; the export license he acquired; the highly sensitive technology he was hoping to sell to the government of South Korea; to say nothing of the fact he’s still clutching his US citizenship, apparently in no hurry to settle in the land of his true patriot love, South Korea.”
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FF12Dg04.html
This guy is no patriot for either country, but for some Koreans any Korean who goes up against the big bad U.S. is a hero, including murdering dictators who live in Pyongyang. They’ve created this mythological U.S. that’s always “arrogant” and “hurts Korean pride” while not acknowledging the continuous support the U.S. gives Korea or the fact that without the U.S. Korea could still be a colony of Japan or part of China or the Soviet Union, or a proxy communist state.
OK, I’m rambling now
What really annoyed me about this proposed movie is how intellectually dishonest it is and how by Jeong’s own words it’s a blatant attempt to play on people’s anti-U.S. prejudices, which mainly come from ignorance rather than reality.
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Not anti-kyopo at all - but as an American I feel that when you choose to live in my country as an American then your first loyalty is to your country. The same with my Western friends who have changed their citizenship to Korea - they are now Koreans and their first loyalty should be to their “country” - which is Korea.
As for the money and religion thing - both are just as disgusting…although the religion thing I might have more understanding for, but I still disagree with it.
I think Robert Kim should have been slammed harder than what he was - I think a long vacation at Leavenworth would have helped him choose what his true nationality is/was.
To be honest - not too big on dual citizenships. I know several people with them and it has always been to my understanding that you could really only have one nation. What gives with the multi-passports? American only when it serves you - what ever other nationality when it doesn’t….I am ranting and raving so I will end here
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Fair enough.
@Michael -
I must say that your ATol citations make me miss the wisdom of David Scofield, who has largely quit Korean studies for other pursuits (and who, rules of disclosure require, is an old friend).
The Robert Kim case caused no shortage of heartburn for Korean Americans when it went down, but what’s left of it is really only a problem for those elements in Korea, chiefly the media and those behind this ill-conceived film, who cling to this scoundrel as a patriot — something the ROK government to its credit isn’t doing. (They no doubt know that Kim was mainly in it for the money and wrapped himself in the Taegukki only when convenient — a point of view ROK masses won’t be exposed to thanks to the “conviction of patriotism” of the Korean media that willfully ignored that key element.)
Can’t someone convincingly explain to the Chosun Ilbo, Yonhap and these filmmakers just how clueless they come across with this Robert Kim as martyr shit?
Yes, he’s an opportunist. That’s clear and simple.
Slim, Mr. Scofield’s articles were always great, never met him unfortunately, hope he’s doing well.
Where would you begin to explain to the Korean media that it’s clueless? It’s a massive undertaking.
I know quite a few Korean-Americans who were/are quite pissed off about/at Robert Kim. Kind of makes them look bad is what they told me. Never did like the word Kyopo either. Sometimes I like turning crap around on Korean nationals who are hypocrites, but doing it to Americans who are Korean is wrong because they’re Americans.
Here’s a little ethnic scheming by the head of Korean associations in America, who wants to ’strengthen ethnic-identity education of Americans of Korean descent [my phrase]‘ and ‘to give shape to a program to assist to formation of a community between themselves [이들끼리의].’
http://news.joins.com/article/.....41547.html
And for balance, an interesting piece about hangeul in Japan : http://article.joins.com/artic.....id=2760902
The United States is unwilling and philosophically unable to take things like “ethnocentricity” into consideration before giving people access to sensitive information. But I think it urgently needs to try anyway. After all they consider everything else.
Candidates are vetted for a range of liabilities; skeletons in the closet, financial vulnerabilities, family living overseas (suseptible to kidnapping for a ransom of secret information) and anything else that would make them more vulnerable to coersion that normal. If they are not already, they need to be that much more circumspect regarding applicants with any ethnic or religious identity tied to a foriegn nation that might compete with their American Nationality. Sorry but, Jews, Koreans and Chinese that means you(to name but a few). I even would go so far as to say that the bar be set to “Korea bar exam” levels for first generation immigrants regards granting access to sensitive information.
I know that this is in fact a form of discriminatin, and let me say that I am not a big fan of it any more than I am of WMDs, but I wouldn’t recomend abstaining from either when it comes to National Securitiy issues. The greater good is served by upholding a life of non-discrimination domestically.
That’s all I’ve been saying the whole time.
“If they are not already, they need to be that much more circumspect regarding applicants with any ethnic or religious identity tied to a foriegn nation that might compete with their American Nationality. Sorry but, Jews, Koreans and Chinese that means you(to name but a few). ”
Hmm….like Wen Ho Lee, the man of Chinese descent falsely accused?
And how do you pick which foreign nation to base it on? And why is Korea included among the list of “suspect” nations?…because of one traitor of Korean descent?
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Wen Ho Lee, huh? It was not Wen Ho Lee’s race that attracted attention, but his incredibly suspicious behavior.
1. Met with a suspected PRC spy in 1982.
2. Had a relationship with the head of the Chinese nuclear weapons design program and did not report the relationship.
3. Met with Chinese nuclear scientists.
4. Downloaded classified data that took 40 hours over a period of 70 days.
5. Failed lie detector tests.
6. Attempted to sneak back into the weapons design area after his clearance was revoked.
7. Deleted files to cover his tracks.
It is all laid out in the indictment.
http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/lee_indict.html
The government needed to know what Lee did with the information that he stole and stored on tapes, so he plea bargained in exchange for telling the government what he did with them. For that deal, he was found guilty of one count.
Lee also had a history of lying. On many occasions he lied about who he had met, and what he had said, only admitting the truth when he was confronted with concrete evidence (like a taped phone call).
The government messed up by not removing his clearance when they discovered his initial deceptions. Wen Ho Lee is the luckiest man in America to get off and pretend to be a victim the way he is. In the minute possibility he is not a spy then he is certainly someone that should not be trusted with security clearance, as he is a known liar, prone to deception.
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The Marmot spake in #60 thus:
“Even if this were true, why take what he says and use it to blanket an entire ethnic group of Americans? The same goes for abcdefg’s comments. Just because he says something doesn’t mean the majority of Korean-Americans agree with him.”
Mr. Robert, the gaping hole in yr argument is that a massive, approaching 99% majority of Korean-Americans agree with him.
Koreans have no loyalty to Korea.
Korean-Americans have no loyalty to America.
(Insert your own country here for above statement)
You ever notice that China NEVER allows Chinese citizens to be “Korean-Chinese”? The Chinese have centuries more experience than others with Korea, and they know : Be nice and let Koreans be independently ethnics, Koreans will spit in your face and refuse to assimilate.
Go look at the kyopo Dogsh*t who beat 3 non-Koreans for being in K-town, LA last week.
The Japanese knew, and know, how to handle Koreans. “Pass me the whip, Matsumata, and let us dispense with this Korean freak over-emoting.”
Alrighty, then…
Hey, Robert, why was my remark to Matt about Wen Ho Lee (and how it DOESN’T relate to people of Korean descent since Lee was from Taiwan) removed? I don’t think I crossed any line of behavior.
Beats me. You’d have to ask the Oranckay.
Oranckay?
Is Hugh a troll or is he serious?
Whatever abcdefg said, was said more clearly and succintly by Victor Rosa (played by John Leguizamo) in the 2002 movie Empire.
Roman citizen and great articulator of the law, Paul of Tarsus apparently felt that citizenship was merely a legal status which entitled him to a trial before having his head chopped off for the treason of defying Caesar’s authority. But his ethnic or spiritual association wasnt necessarily “Roman”. What was good enough for Paul is good enough for me.
In the long run, it wasn’t good for Rome though, was it…
Go break American law then, Bluejives, tell the courts of your apostilic conviction, and see how far that gets you. Heck, for that matter, come over here to Korea and do the same if by chance you break a law, and see what good that does. See, too, how others regard you from your defense.
#94 - I would add that going to prison for betraying trust in favor of filthy lucre hardly compares to laying down your life for refusing to compromise your deepest convictions. Robert Kim qua Paul of Tarsus? Preposterous. A saint he ain’t.
Oh, and Empire sucked.