For instance, they can’t make up the story that Korean women were systematically recruited forcibly through Teishintai, there was no Korean brokers, there were no (Japanese and) Korea parents who sold their daughters, there is no need to apologize for the Korean comfort women after the liberation.

100% in agreement with you. Though I haven’t seen anyone denying these facts here.

I do see a need to make a distinction. The actions of Korean brokers and (possibly) Korean parents who sold their daughters, while reprehensible, were the acts of private individuals. The establishment of comfort stations whose “employees” were taken from distant lands under colonial control was the act of a government. It’s not valid to equate the acts of a government with the individual acts of private individuals.

As for Korea’s post-war comfort stations, and more generally her tolerance for prostitution, I personally think that Korea has quite a bit of soul-searching to do on these issues. But they deserve to be considered on their own merits. Tossing them out to deflect criticism of Japanese war crimes cheapens them. It leads me to ask the question, does this person really care about the victimization of women? Or is he just cynically dragging out all the dirty laundry he can to confuse the issue? It reminds me of the cynical defense lawyer who tries to drag a rape victim’s sexual history into court and make it an issue during the rapist’s trial. Far from a perfect analogy, I know, but I think these deflection tactics arouse similar sentiments of disgust among many people.

And finally: a~g, well put @ 65.

Some people say Japanese are trying to evade the responsibility by bringing up such facts as there were many Korean brokers,

This is true.

But another interpretation is that Korean people overreact to it because they want to evade their own responsibility.

This is false.

“He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”,the accusers began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones

We are permitted to simplify. This issue is not one about “sin” or something quite so general. Once it’s understood how particular the Korean grievance is, which is about Japanese aggression, not just any aggression, then we can understand why Korea would be able to throw the stone: They have not made sex slaves of Japanese women.

The topic is Japan’s war crimes. By extension, it’s Korea’s relation to Japan as a post-colonial country. If we don’t appreciate that such things as sex slavery or the nanjing massacres are understood holistically, that is as parts of a larger set of offenses, then we will lose focus and misunderstand what is driving the political phenomena that we see. The issue of Japanese politics in Asia is a very live and distinct problem. What would the West be like if Germans took the Japanese route and split hairs and displaced blame everywhere they could?

The topic of the debate was not Korea’s misdeeds

Well after all the topic was not about comfort women at all. Look at the title of the post.
Concerning the related topic, it started with my comment #44 to the effect Robert admitted in the end that Japan as a policy did not forced women into brothels.
I quoted his comment “I don’t believe that the Japanese military kidnapped women as a matter of policy,” on the comment #52.

I don’t want to spend my time on this nitpicking. Instead ,I want to focus other aspects of this issue.
Some people say Japanese are trying to evade the responsibility by bringing up such facts as there were many Korean brokers, there were parents who sold their daughter, there were many geasen houses, Japan as a policy did not kidnap the women, the same system continued after the liberation in Korea in the hands of Koreans people and Korean government.
Well it is a possible interpretation. But another interpretation is that Korean people overreact to it because they want to evade their own responsibility. This interpretation is reinforced by the fact so far there is no imminent movement to atone for the injustice done on the Korean comfort women after the liberation, but just the bizarre silence about it.
Note also if not me but a native Korean points out the facts above , I think many people, non ethnocentric people would praise her.
Comfort stations during Korean war poses the interesting question. Do Korean people accuse the US and will make her apologize because the US was the main player of that while being silent about their government because the women were victimized by Koreans? Or do they not want to accuse anybody because it will reveal injustice of Korea as well?
Japan is to blame as to the colonization, and hence she apologized many times, But that does not means Koran people can demand endless apologies nor does it mean they can impose their myth on the world. For instance, they can’t make up the
story that Korean women were systematically recruited forcibly through Teishintai, there was no Korean brokers, there were no (Japanese and) Korea parents who sold their daughters, there is no need to apologize for the Korean comfort women after the liberation.

When Jesus pointed out “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”,the accusers began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones. His
statement, in one interpretation, functioned to induce the soul-searching on the part of the accusers—this would be especially more so if the women in question had already apologized several times. Young people went out last. But it seems some Korean people would keep throwing stones, nevertheless. Of course there are Korean American bloggers like Asian pages, Kusan A,B Scribblings of the Metropolitician, who take balanced view, but in my impression, that is not the case with Korean media and Korean people in general.
I think many Japanese are sick and tired
of the game with Korea. Historical debates are okay but why not leave them to historians. And this statement hold also for Japanese politicians.

I thank Marmot for giving a dissident like me space to write what I want to say. No sarcasm intended.

ponta - one additional remark to #61. You ask

Are you demanding further apologies from Japan…?

In #53, I wrote,

To my mind, further apologies are not necessary.

Try reading the comments you’re responding to. Really reading them, not just selectively cherry picking points to distort and obfuscate.

And one last thing.

By the same token I can demand apology from you for twisting my claim, but I won’t. Because that does not make sense.
By the way I said it seems you are not familiar with the subject. That means you can prove you are familiar with the subject.

No you can’t, because I haven’t distorted any of your claims. As for “It seems you are not familiar with the subject,” it was a facile dismissal of my commentary with no factual basis. It was an ad hominem attack. That’s why I asked for an apology. By way of contrast, while I have frequently pointed out your illogical arguments, I have refrained from making ad hominem remarks such as “ponta seems unable to construct a valid argument.” See the difference?

Cheers.

Like I said, this is pointless.

Are you demanding further apologies from Japan while ignoring the Korean government and military of the time were complicit in a system of sex slavery and therefore .they were guilty of coercion.?
Did Korea as a policy kidnap the women as a matter of policy?

There you go changing the subject again. The topic of the debate was not Korea’s misdeeds. It was historical revisionism as seen in the Washington Post ad. Further, this is a non-starter, because at the time in question (WWII), there was no Korean government or military! You must know this. Korea was a colonial possession of your beloved Japan.

Quit changing the subject. The tu quoque (someone else did it too!) is a logical fallacy, ponta. STOP USING IT.

“American government issued an apology for the Japanese-Americans who were interned during WWⅡ.”

I would submit the above as a different kind of case. How a government treats its minority groups, and the kind of responsibility it incurs as a government, is outside the pertinent national/international distinction I made above. My point still applies: A disanalogy exists between this, ie US apologizing to Japanese-American, and what you’re pushing for, ie present-day South Korean government apologizing to its own people for the actions of Koreans that have nothing to do with the current government, a government that has no participation in false apologies, no systematic historical revisionism, no cultural commemoration of its past imperialism or war heroes.

“In case of Korea there is continuity. “Sex slave” system in Korea continued after WWⅡ (at least) to the 80’s.”

Even if your premises are accepted, it’s still not of the category of war-time abuse by a foreign nation.

“Does that mean Korean victims under Korea regime need no apology ?”

It means that it’s impertinent. We cannot pretend to think that if Japan commits a failure to apologize in earnest then Korea is hypocritical.

If Bush screws over a segment of the American population, does that mean the President of the United States 20 years from now has to apologize for the actions of Bush’s administration?

American government issued an apology for the Japanese-Americans who were interned during WWⅡ.

WWⅡ believe most Americans would agree and feel the same way where there is no continuity between one administration and the other

In a way there is little continuity between Japanese government during WWⅡ and after WWⅡ.The constitution had changed and the subject of sovereignty had changed from the emperor to people.
In case of Korea there is continuity. “Sex slave” system in Korea continued after WWⅡ (at least) to the 80’s.

I’ll state it this way: You cannot claim Korea is being hypocritical when it’s obvious that Korea has no history of making comfort woman of other peoples and not apologizing for it.

Does that mean Korean victims under Korea regime need no apology ?

Something must be said about the logic of how crimes committed by a government against a people, operates in determining liability. If Bush screws over a segment of the American population, does that mean the President of the United States 20 years from now has to apologize for the actions of Bush’s administration? I’d say no, and I believe most Americans would agree and feel the same way where there is no continuity between one administration and the other. And if a new administration does apologize that would not be an issue of the American government, properly speaking. Otoh, I believe the next or any future president will have to apologize on behalf of America if damage done by any administrationt involves other countries. On this larger level, particularities like indiviidual presidents clearly don’t matter; the gestures made from one country to another and the responsibility a country must have takes on a different level.

My point is that you’re a making a category mistake. What relation does the South Korean government have to either the individual Koreans operating under Japanese rule during WWII or the Korean government of the 50s? Should North Korea apologize too? Does the South Korean government today insult any comfort women by making mock apologies? Did the Korean government initiate wars on other countries? We are talking about war victims under a foreign rule during WWII, crimes committed by folks who are not Korean. What wars has Korea started? Your argument is fallacious because it involves taking entities that matter on one level and applying these to a different level altogether. If that’s not clear, I’ll state it this way: You cannot claim Korea is being hypocritical when it’s obvious that Korea has no history of making comfort woman of other peoples and not apologizing for it.

Robert said, and I agree, that the Japanese military did not kidnap women as a matter of policy.

That is what I had been arguing for. Don’t change the subject. In some cases coercion did take place, and Japan is to blame for that as I said.
But if you remember the debates well, Korean side used to think Japan as a policy systematically recruited women through Teishintai, Women’s work Brigade. That turned out to be groundless.
Japanese government from early on admitted governmental involvement in the sense Kato above specified.
And PMs stand by it and apologized.
It is Korean media who are not familiar with the subject and got excited every time Japanese politicians told the truth like “korea-has-many-gisaeng-houses” “parents sold their daughter “Japan didn’t kidnap women as a matter of policy”
These statements which historians takes as a matter of fact are taken as evading the responsibility.
In Korea probably does telling the truth mean evading the responsibility?
Their demand for apology and nitpicking are endless like this,

And I’ll await your apology for this:

And I am afraid it seems you are not familiar with the subject.

I won’t, however, hold my breath.

By the same token I can demand apology from you for twisting my claim, but I won’t. Because that does not make sense.
By the way I said it seems you are not familiar with the subject. That means you can prove you are familiar with the subject.
Are you demanding further apologies from Japan while ignoring the Korean government and military of the time were complicit in a system of sex slavery and therefore .they were guilty of coercion.?
Did Korea as a policy kidnap the women as a matter of policy?

As for Jiroumaru, I am not a sock puppet, and nobody know Jiroumaru was a sock puppet. For that matter, the comments like Jion’s are frequently made
by other commenter but their punishments was just that their comments were deleted.

Fantasy
I know you like Japan.

the Japanese nationalists, by cheapening the previous apologies Japan has made, are endangering their fine country’s (i.e. Japan’s) reputation.

I would like you to be specific. Which statements by which nationalists cheapened the previous apologies by what
way.
Suppose German prime minister said Nazi didn’t massacre Korean people. Did she cheapen apology? Suppose Korean people strongly believe that Nazi massacred Korean people. Do German people should be silent about it because doing so mean cheapening apologies? Suppose Korean people spread it on the internet and through the media. Is is unreasonable to
deny the statement?

In passing tell me if you are aware of Korea hypocrisy on this matter? Have you read my comment #52?

But anyway I think Japanese politicians should learn the tactics of ignoring and
remaining the silent like Korean government;if you ignore it there is no problem, right?