According to about 100 Japanese governing party lawmakers, the Nanjing Massacre never happened. (!?)
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It Did Not Happen
This entry was written by R. Elgin, posted on June 20, 2007 at 11:55 am, filed under Asides. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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66 Comments
Let the spinning begin…. ponta? gbevers?
Photos don’t lie:
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....index.html
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....oodrds.htm
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....llrive.htm
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....llcity.htm
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....llgame.htm
Nor do newspaper articles:
http://www.centurychina.com/wi.....llcomp.htm
I also doubt people like Rabe, one of the german nazis who helped run the safety zone in Nanjing, would have reason to fabricate an entire diary.
http://findarticles.com/p/arti.....i_53642249
At the end of the day the evidence is irrefutable. To deny Nanjing is aking to denying the jewish holocaust. I wonder what the reaction would be in europe if 100 german lawmakers denied the final solution took place. Unreal.
“The Group concluded that the city turned into “an ordinary battlefield no more and no less”
…Unable to confirm the facts, “unjustifiable” photos.. ”
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/409941
No Proof = No massacre = Nothing happend in Japanese (Military) history.
Even towards own people …
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/409454
NOTHING Happened…
Well, (not debating whether the massacre took place or not)…but, hoju_saram, I remember reading somewhere that some of those pictures are suspected forgeries created by the Chinese government.
Actually the nanjing massacre is well documentated to say safely that it did took place.
Number of the victims are unclear however.
The whole revisionists bunch use a trick in attacking several of those fabricated photos and then try to persude the lay public that the whole massacre was a fabrication and propaganda by the chinese.
By the way, Hoju saram, photos lie. That’s why no academic historian take photos as first hand evidence. You don’t know when it was taken, by whom with what purpose.
You don’t need photos to, say ,prove about the battle of Trafalgar.
I am sure that many know about the following article by Prof.David Askew, through ampontan’s post but I will link it.
http://www.japanesestudies.org.....Askew.html
As tomojiro said, what’s being argued against is the number 300,000… However that part wasn’t included in the IHT article.
The study did not determine that Nanjing was never attacked and taken by the Japanese military, but the number of civilians killed was 50,000. Part of this discrepancy comes from what you can define as a victim of a massacre. Would we for example refer to the killing of the Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima as a massacre? No, of course not, they were soldiers, and they were shooting back! Then is it fair to count soldiers in Nanjing as victims, or should they be counted as soldiers who didn’t do their job? Everyone agrees killing an un-armed civilian is a crime, but not everyone in the city was such.
But what the real issue needs to be is the actual war crimes part (after all, wining a battle isn’t really a war crime now is it — imagine the implications if we applied this consistently.) The cases of rape, and the killing of civilians. There is indeed a collection of photo evidence, but some of it has been proven to be fake. However it’s no matter, because a few of the Japanese soldiers that are still alive today from the invasion give their accounts of what they did, and have no problem admitting what they did (however it did take many, many years to come to terms with it.)
Is this report self-serving? It certainly is. But can it just be dismissed? No more than say any other report ever issued about the topic; if such a report authored by Japanese is thrown out as biased, then we’d better throw out all Chinese ones too, because they’ll be biased as well. The debate over who to and not to count is a good one, and has implications to this very day. For example, are terrorists to be counted as the numbers dead in Iraq, or are they a different category because they were fighting back? Or how about the American soldiers themselves even… Should we feel pity for those who lost a loved one, or tell them, “well hey, he was out there tying to kill people, he’s ‘fair game.’”
The inconsistent application of such logic when it comes to Japan is what agitates the Japanese more than anything. If every race was to be labeled eternally evil for a mistake in their past, I think it might work better since China is certainly no angel in this category.
Nobody here wants to label Japan as “eternally evil”.
The German attitude in this respect is that both WWI and WWII were, as such, unjustified and illegal, thus it follows that every killing committed by a German in the course of these illegal wars, be it of a soldier or of a civilian, must be considered a war crime.
The respective German soldiers are, however, personally excused on the grounds that they did not enough knowledge at their disposal at the time of the killings so that they were not in a position to grasp the fact that they were acting in contravention of international law. This excuse does, however, not exonerate the country as such which must therefore fully face up to its responsibilty…
Yes, I understand that no one here on this blog thinks that way, but we must be honest and realize that there are people who believe that. I did not mean to say that is what the people here think.
Okay, Peter Pan, I am willing to accept that statement.
By no means do I intend to start another online feud with you.
Peace…
“hoju_saram”, photos can lie like a champ. Take a look at this “truthful” version of one of Robert’s site photos.
Photoshop is popsicle-cool.
I’m being hit with the inscrutability ray. I’m still waiting for the next argument after, “We are absolutely positive”. They’ve got to have something more than, “China, take down those photos that don’t quite fit into the pretty mosaic we’re trying to manufacture for ourselves”.
Exactly how big is the Fantasyland portion of Disneyland in Japan?
The real issue here is not how many Chinese were butchered at Najing, but how unwilling so many japanese ‘leaders’ are to admit the barbaric behavior of their forces and reconcile themselves with their neighbors. The real issue is contemporary, not historical.
The Japanese government can say what they want about insufficient evidence or what not, but if they say it NEVER happened, that’s a different story.
Because then neither did the holocaust or slavery.
Sheriff, could you delete it?
“Yes, I understand that no one here on this blog thinks that way, but we must be honest and realize that there are people who believe that.”
Let’s not only be honest but also precise, Peter Pan. The only people who think Japan is “eternally evil” are a fair number of Koreans and Chinese along with a few elderly Western veterans of WWII. Globally speaking, anti-Japanese sentiments are not widespread.
#16, Not just a historical revisionist but a crybaby too. No surprise there.
Well, China does have 1.3 billion people, most being fairly anti-Japanese.
Anti-Japanese sentiment is much more widespread in the West than Sonagi states. ‘Jap’ still seems to be the most common racist slur I hear towards Asians in the States and it’s not just used by WWII vets.
Here’s an example of an overheard conversation between two non-elderly Americans:
‘Did you see the Yankees game last night?’
‘Yea, I saw it until Torre pulled the Jap [Chien-Ming Wang] from the game.’
It’s unfortunate the Japanese aren’t more forthcoming. That seems to be a large impetus for the Chinese to tell utter fairy tales about their own history. (Besides, of course, that the Chinese are dirty red capitalists who have consummated a worst-of-both-worlds marriage of Capitalism and Communism.)
“Anti-Japanese sentiment is much more widespread in the West than Sonagi states. ‘Jap’ still seems to be the most common racist slur I hear towards Asians in the States and it’s not just used by WWII vets.
Here’s an example of an overheard conversation between two non-elderly Americans:
‘Did you see the Yankees game last night?’
‘Yea, I saw it until Torre pulled the Jap [Chien-Ming Wang] from the game.’”
Well, on the basis of that single anecdote, I’m now convinced that anti-Japanese sentiment is widespread. Two guys at a US baseball game referring to an ethnic Chinese as a “Jap” clearly shows that a significant number of Westerners think Japan is “eternally evil.”
You missed my point, Sonagi. ‘Jap’ seems to be the most common racist slur towards Asians whether they’re Japanese or not b/c of still lingering anti-Japanese sentiment in the West.
Yes, many Westerners still see Japan and Japanese people unfavorably. If you were Asian you’d probably notice it more in the States.
1) I’d bet that Western people under 50 see Japan more favorably than Korea or China.
2) I’d also bet that a lot of older Western people don’t see the term “Jap” as racially offensive.
I read this as a challenge to debate one’s position or ideas rather than a personal attack unless you are really part spider or shaped like a circle.
Discuss your ideas well and that will persuade and educate.
Elgin
Thanks I thought “Let the spinning begin…. ponta? gbevers?” insinuated that I was spinning elsewhere , and to discuss it, it will inevitably lead us to the matter off the topic. Hence I thought Not only was it sort of ad hominem attack the but also it was off the topic.
But never mind. After all I was honored being put beside gbevers, who is being bashed because he is telling the truth on Dokdo. I should have ignored the bait.
BTW on the related issue, I have already made my comment on another blog.
http://ampontan.wordpress.com/.....mment-4492
Right. In the future, Ut videam, if you’re going to launch ad hominem attacks, I’d ask that you please limit yourself to those methods employed by Ponta himself, which is to suggest that the commenter shouldn’t be believed because of his ethnicity. You may also raise allegations that he’s taking money from (insert ethnic group here), and bring his fashion taste into the discussion.
Allegations that he’s spin-doctoring, on the other hand, are in poor taste.
Robert Koehler
Thanks
I’d ask that you please limit yourself to those methods employed by Ponta himself, which is to suggest that the commenter shouldn’t be believed because of his ethnicity. You may also raise allegations that he’s taking money from (insert ethnic group here), and bring his fashion taste into the discussion.
This is another comment off the topic.
if you want to discuss the comments I made on another blog, why don’t you comment on the thread where I commented?
Or if Robert does not want to visit Occidentalism, and if Sheriff allows me to talk about it here, I am more than happy to discuss it here. That will inevitably involve the issue off the topic, though. Or just the delete the part that mentioned my comments on another blog, Robert.
Either way, Choose.
Marmot’s throwin’ elbows today.
Actually I have found #1 quite witty.
#26 - Duly noted, Sir Marmot. My sincerest apologies.
By the way, speaking of ad hominem and so as to keep your postings within your field of expertise… know of any good cannibal restaurants?
Ut videam — Don’t apologize. I was being sarcastic while noting the irony of Ponta complaining about an ad hominem attack.
“You missed my point, Sonagi. ‘Jap’ seems to be the most common racist slur towards Asians whether they’re Japanese or not b/c of still lingering anti-Japanese sentiment in the West.”
You missed my point. Peter Pan commented, “The inconsistent application of such logic when it comes to Japan is what agitates the Japanese more than anything. If every race was to be labeled eternally evil for a mistake in their past, I think it might work better since China is certainly no angel in this category.” “Eternally evil” is rather strong. I do not believe that Westerners in general have a visceral hatred of Japan and the Japanese that is historically bred amongst Koreans and Chinese.
“Yes, many Westerners still see Japan and Japanese people unfavorably. If you were Asian you’d probably notice it more in the States.”
How many? Racism and negative ethnic stereotyping exist but are very hard to quantify.
#31 – My apology was offered in that same spirit.
Incidentally, to your list of ponta’s preferred ad hominem methods you might wish to add the tu quoque, which some logicians classify as a form of ad hominem, and which further is ponta’s favorite way to obfuscate when faced with inconvenient historical facts (and revisionists’ deplorable attempts to deny or minimize them).
Sonagi,
Anti-Japanese sentiment in the West is still much more widespread than your initial beliefs that it is limited to WWII vets.
Because it doesn’t reach the same level as in China or Korea doesn’t mean that there is still an anti-Japanese bias in the West.
Another example of the anti-Japanese sentiment here is Toyota’s involvement in NASCAR.
“Anti-Japanese sentiment in the West is still much more widespread than your initial beliefs that it is limited to WWII vets. “
Again, you’re using different terminology, “anti-Japanese;” I did not say that “anti-Japanese sentiments” were “limited to WWII vets.” I said that the notion of the Japanese being “eternally evil” was not found in the West, except among some WWII vets.
“Anti-Japanese sentiment in the West is still much more widespread than your initial beliefs that it is limited to WWII vets.”
Really ?
Is that so in the States ?
In Europe, Japan is one of the most admired nations of all.
And the real shame is that she is putting this hard-earned and well-deserved reputation at risk by her stubborn denial of her wartime guilt…
Ponta says…..But never mind. After all I was honored being put beside gbevers, who is being bashed because he is telling the truth on Dokdo.
Gerry Bevers is just putting his spin on Dokdo, that’s all. He ignores or buries any facts that contradict the Japanese MOFA claim to Takeshima.
The best website on Dokdo is published by a man called Hanmaumy. What a shame it’s only in Korean. He really tore Gerry and his Takeshima lobbyists apart Ponta included.
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie03-1.htm
Nevertheless, Frogmouth,
although this may well be so, South Korea’s unwillingness to have the Dokdo/Takeshima case examined and decided by the International Court of Justice makes me suspicious…
No case is ever clear until it has been decided by the competent court of last instance…
Fantasy,
If I tell you about “courts” generally, a court is not an institute to reveal absolutely truthful facts. In courts, lawyers are “lawyering.” In the perspective of “lawyering,” there is hardly a definitely right or wrong answer, which is one of the first things that law schools teach. A conclusion in a court depends on arguments of parties. Jury is called “factfinders.” Factfinders “decide” a fact. In their discussions, they decide or “vote for” a particular facts based on facts that a courts have “selected.” There are political factors working as well. A skillful lawyer can take someone else’s house that the person legitimately owns and is already living in. There is a reason that people hate lawyers and do not want to go to trial. They are what happen in “courts” generally.
Well it seems Robert is encouraging people to talk about things off the topic, it is inevitable when a
a judge and prosecutor and a culprit is the one and the same person.
Beside after all Robert enjoys trash posting. People might be even encouraged to link HOW TO SPOT A JAP site as Robert did when talking with a Japanese.
As for the my comment he linked, I suggest the readership to visit there and
read my comments in the context to see if Rober represented my comments fairly.
It is Ponta who represented the commenter as a Korean American. It is Robert who claimed citing a commenter as a Korean American is to have people discredit what he says.
It is Ponta who cited a source from a native Korean but it is Rober who doubt its credibility.
I don’t know why Robert takes my comment personally, even citing my comments from another blog but I am thankful I was not banned like Jiromaru, who just said, “jion999 has been banned by Robert Koehler with no mentioning reason”
Thanks anyway I enjoyed the discussion.
There are insane people everywhere in the world. Ji Man-Won is one of those lunatics and has been sued for multiple times for his absurd, groundless assertions. He recently said, at a right-wing meeting, the Korean Army and the law enforcement should have shot civilian demonstrators at a demonstration like the Korean Army did at the “Kwangju Protest” in 1980 where hundreds of civilians were killed. Even the former coup leader and president Chun Doo-Whan (1980-1987) was charged later (1995) for his role regarding the incident. One of Ji Man-Won’s inviters apologized to the public for his remark.
Quoting what Ji Man-Won says is a logical suicide for those who know him.
French Quarter
I didn’t quote what Jimanin said, I quoted what the former comfort women said in the interview with him.
You did represent the commenter as a Korean-American. No argument there. You did so as an ethnic smear, i.e., WJK is Korean-American, and therefor his arguments cannot be trusted. Here’s the comment below:
More from comment #40:
OK, I know I don’t need to explain this to you, but I doubted the credibility of the “native Korean” because he’s widely considered a right-wing extremist, not because he’s a “native Korean.” Now, if I’d said, “BTW, Ji Man-won is a native Korean” as an argument to discredit him, as you did with WJK, then yes, it would be the same. But I didn’t, and it’s not.
But then again, I assume you understood that even before you wrote what you did.
Robert
Thanks.
So if the man who talks about things off the topic, who encourages to talk about things off the topic is the sheriff, it is okay to talk about things off the topic—Is that the rule here ? Well maybe. I thought the most appropriate place to talk about what you are talking
was Occidentalism. But anyway after all you own this blog. I follow the rule.
So what led you think that I was insinuating being Korean American is not
relialble?
Suppose someone said,
Speculate all you like, Ponta. It’s a free country.
Robert Koehler
Thank you for the permission, sir.
He had to admit that in the end? Funny, I never saw that.
Quite the contrary, in fact… As I recall, Robert pointed out something akin to the following:
Even leaving aside the “isolated incidents” of soldiers directly abducting women and pressing them into “service” (read: SEX SLAVERY), the practice of staffing military brothels with women who were:
* recruited under false pretenses (and IT DOESN’T MATTER WHETHER THE BROKERS WHO DID IT WERE JAPANESE OR KOREAN); and
* shipped to locations far from home;
is tantamount to holding them against their will, and if that’s not coercion, what is? Ergo, the revisionists’ claim that the government and/or military did not engage in coercion is execrable.
Sorry for all the bold, caps, etc. but ponta tends to read selectively, so certain points have to be unmistakably emphasized.
… Anyways …
I have to correct myself above. The study did not come to the conclusion that 50,000 civilians were killed, but even less, at 20,000. Sorry for the mistake.
Although I find it hard to believe that a 300,000 is the correct number no matter how you count (the total population was only like 250,000 at the time correct? China didn’t have an infrastructure like Europe that would allow for bringing trainloads of people in either), and I do think it’s important that we try and find the most accurate and factually correct number possible, I really don’t see what good it is going to do for members of either government, or of any political party to try an counter Chinese over exaggerations with a Japanese under exaggeration. It seems as though these 100 guys are taking a ‘used car’ approach to the issue trying to bargain for the best deal they can get, by lowballing at first and working from their.
That bothers me. I think it would be best for politicians to stay out of the research part, and focus on the political aspect of what the results mean. It’s certainly not one’s area of expertise.
French Quarter:
Thanks for enlightening me as to the function of the due process of law.
BTW, not that it really matters, but I had some inkling of the vagaries of the law before, as I hold a British J.D.-equivalent, as well as a Canadian LL.M. But this is off-topic, of course…
I was referring here to FQ’s comment #39.
The first non-ethnic Japanese sumo wrestlers were not welcomed with open arms.
Ut videam
thanks
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ment-75792
And I am afraid it seems you are not familiar with the subject. For your reference,
recruitement
Japan
And sure nobody is dening coesion took place.Why do we know it for sure? because Japanese newspapers reported Japanese police regulated such illegal brokers.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=545#comment-16168
And Japanese military closed the brothel
in Indonesia where Jan Ruff O’Herne was working.
Korea
contract
Japan
Korea
scale
Japan
Korea
Government involvement
Japan
Korea
Support for the former victims
Japan
Japanese activists visited Korea to search for the comfort women. Backed up Japanese activists and Korean organization, the former comfort women came forward.
Korea
(sex among allies)
Apology and the fund
Japan
Asian Womens fund was set up.
Korea
ponta,
This is pointless. The language barrier (possibly) and your nationalistic blinders (certainly) make it impossible for you to even keep track of the point being argued.
Robert said, and I agree, that the Japanese military did not kidnap women as a matter of policy. With me so far?
That being said, physical force is not the only form of coercion. Luring someone by deceit, and then shipping her off to a remote location from which she’s unable to return—presuming of course that the “comfort station” authorities would permit her to leave, which is a rather large presumption indeed—would be defined by most reasonable people as coercion.
The Japanese government and military of the time participated in just such a system as I have described above. Therefore, they were guilty of coercion. The women who were duped into this system and unable to escape can rightly be termed “sex slaves,” as they were forced to perform sexual acts against their will. Hence, the Japanese government and military of the time were complicit in a system of sex slavery.
Any part of this not clear, ponta?
To my mind, further apologies are not necessary. Indeed, to those driven by nationalistic agendas and not by true compassion for the sufferings of these women, further apologies will never be enough. They’ll keep using this issue to beat on Japan as long as it still gets them press—which means probably as long as any comfort women survive. I think we’re 100% in agreement there too.
What grinds my gears is the nationalists on the other side of the Sea of Japan (yes, I said it) who also can’t just let the issue go. They keep trying to define down the misconduct by claiming that there was no coercion (by redefining ‘coercion’ to mean only physical force, i.e. kidnapping) and claiming that the women were prostitutes and not sex slaves. By doing this, they cheapen the previous apologies and insult the sensibilities of the victims—and indeed of all people of good will.
See, ponta, I’m not a Japan-hater by any stretch of the imagination. I just think the nationalistic revisionism (as evidenced in the Washington Post ad, for instance) is despicable. I thought I’d been clear about this all along, but if I wasn’t, I apologize. Nevertheless, your selective reading and reflexive jumping to Japan’s defense don’t help you to see the whole story.
And I’ll await your apology for this:
I won’t, however, hold my breath.
Well put, Ut videam !
Ponta:
We are not Anti-Japanese by any means, you should be aware of this. But the Japanese nationalists, by cheapening the previous apologies Japan has made, are endangering their fine country’s (i.e. Japan’s) reputation.
And I find this most deplorable !
Why ?
Because I like Japan.
Oh, ponta, one more thing. From your #40:
Thankful? Why’s that? Are you, like Jiromaru, a sock puppet for an already-banned troll? It’s pretty clear that’s why he got banned: he was jion999 trying to circumvent his (richly deserved) ban.
So, unless you too are a sock puppet troll, I see no reason for you to fear being “banned like Jiromaru.” Wow, you’re whiny.
You know the story of the boy who cried wolf? Japan is the country that cried apology. Every time they seem sincere and then someone, a politician within the ruling party, seems to recant or rationalize. It makes them appear extremely uncontrite, (is that a word?), as well as bending everything that they say into a less believeable aspect. They refute themselves.
I know that a large percentage of Japanese are rational and disagree with much of what is going on but remain silent. Nobody wants to get their house firebombed.
Ut videam
That is what I had been arguing for. Don’t change the subject. In some cases coercion did take place, and Japan is to blame for that as I said.
But if you remember the debates well, Korean side used to think Japan as a policy systematically recruited women through Teishintai, Women’s work Brigade. That turned out to be groundless.
Japanese government from early on admitted governmental involvement in the sense Kato above specified.
And PMs stand by it and apologized.
It is Korean media who are not familiar with the subject and got excited every time Japanese politicians told the truth like “korea-has-many-gisaeng-houses” “parents sold their daughter “Japan didn’t kidnap women as a matter of policy”
These statements which historians takes as a matter of fact are taken as evading the responsibility.
In Korea probably does telling the truth mean evading the responsibility?
Their demand for apology and nitpicking are endless like this,
By the same token I can demand apology from you for twisting my claim, but I won’t. Because that does not make sense.
By the way I said it seems you are not familiar with the subject. That means you can prove you are familiar with the subject.
Are you demanding further apologies from Japan while ignoring the Korean government and military of the time were complicit in a system of sex slavery and therefore .they were guilty of coercion.?
Did Korea as a policy kidnap the women as a matter of policy?
As for Jiroumaru, I am not a sock puppet, and nobody know Jiroumaru was a sock puppet. For that matter, the comments like Jion’s are frequently made
by other commenter but their punishments was just that their comments were deleted.
Fantasy
I know you like Japan.
I would like you to be specific. Which statements by which nationalists cheapened the previous apologies by what
way.
Suppose German prime minister said Nazi didn’t massacre Korean people. Did she cheapen apology? Suppose Korean people strongly believe that Nazi massacred Korean people. Do German people should be silent about it because doing so mean cheapening apologies? Suppose Korean people spread it on the internet and through the media. Is is unreasonable to
deny the statement?
In passing tell me if you are aware of Korea hypocrisy on this matter? Have you read my comment #52?
But anyway I think Japanese politicians should learn the tactics of ignoring and
remaining the silent like Korean government;if you ignore it there is no problem, right?
ponta,
Something must be said about the logic of how crimes committed by a government against a people, operates in determining liability. If Bush screws over a segment of the American population, does that mean the President of the United States 20 years from now has to apologize for the actions of Bush’s administration? I’d say no, and I believe most Americans would agree and feel the same way where there is no continuity between one administration and the other. And if a new administration does apologize that would not be an issue of the American government, properly speaking. Otoh, I believe the next or any future president will have to apologize on behalf of America if damage done by any administrationt involves other countries. On this larger level, particularities like indiviidual presidents clearly don’t matter; the gestures made from one country to another and the responsibility a country must have takes on a different level.
My point is that you’re a making a category mistake. What relation does the South Korean government have to either the individual Koreans operating under Japanese rule during WWII or the Korean government of the 50s? Should North Korea apologize too? Does the South Korean government today insult any comfort women by making mock apologies? Did the Korean government initiate wars on other countries? We are talking about war victims under a foreign rule during WWII, crimes committed by folks who are not Korean. What wars has Korea started? Your argument is fallacious because it involves taking entities that matter on one level and applying these to a different level altogether. If that’s not clear, I’ll state it this way: You cannot claim Korea is being hypocritical when it’s obvious that Korea has no history of making comfort woman of other peoples and not apologizing for it.
abcdefg
Thanks
American government issued an apology for the Japanese-Americans who were interned during WWⅡ.
In a way there is little continuity between Japanese government during WWⅡ and after WWⅡ.The constitution had changed and the subject of sovereignty had changed from the emperor to people.
In case of Korea there is continuity. “Sex slave” system in Korea continued after WWⅡ (at least) to the 80’s.
Does that mean Korean victims under Korea regime need no apology ?
ponta,
“American government issued an apology for the Japanese-Americans who were interned during WWⅡ.”
I would submit the above as a different kind of case. How a government treats its minority groups, and the kind of responsibility it incurs as a government, is outside the pertinent national/international distinction I made above. My point still applies: A disanalogy exists between this, ie US apologizing to Japanese-American, and what you’re pushing for, ie present-day South Korean government apologizing to its own people for the actions of Koreans that have nothing to do with the current government, a government that has no participation in false apologies, no systematic historical revisionism, no cultural commemoration of its past imperialism or war heroes.
“In case of Korea there is continuity. “Sex slave” system in Korea continued after WWⅡ (at least) to the 80’s.”
Even if your premises are accepted, it’s still not of the category of war-time abuse by a foreign nation.
“Does that mean Korean victims under Korea regime need no apology ?”
It means that it’s impertinent. We cannot pretend to think that if Japan commits a failure to apologize in earnest then Korea is hypocritical.
ponta,
Like I said, this is pointless.
There you go changing the subject again. The topic of the debate was not Korea’s misdeeds. It was historical revisionism as seen in the Washington Post ad. Further, this is a non-starter, because at the time in question (WWII), there was no Korean government or military! You must know this. Korea was a colonial possession of your beloved Japan.
Quit changing the subject. The tu quoque (someone else did it too!) is a logical fallacy, ponta. STOP USING IT.
Ponta is doing his best pursuant to the rule in the comment #1.
Cheers.
FQ - Good point. How quickly we forget.
ponta - one additional remark to #61. You ask
In #53, I wrote,
Try reading the comments you’re responding to. Really reading them, not just selectively cherry picking points to distort and obfuscate.
And one last thing.
No you can’t, because I haven’t distorted any of your claims. As for “It seems you are not familiar with the subject,” it was a facile dismissal of my commentary with no factual basis. It was an ad hominem attack. That’s why I asked for an apology. By way of contrast, while I have frequently pointed out your illogical arguments, I have refrained from making ad hominem remarks such as “ponta seems unable to construct a valid argument.” See the difference?
Ut videam
Thanks
Well after all the topic was not about comfort women at all. Look at the title of the post.
Concerning the related topic, it started with my comment #44 to the effect Robert admitted in the end that Japan as a policy did not forced women into brothels.
I quoted his comment “I don’t believe that the Japanese military kidnapped women as a matter of policy,” on the comment #52.
I don’t want to spend my time on this nitpicking. Instead ,I want to focus other aspects of this issue.
Some people say Japanese are trying to evade the responsibility by bringing up such facts as there were many Korean brokers, there were parents who sold their daughter, there were many geasen houses, Japan as a policy did not kidnap the women, the same system continued after the liberation in Korea in the hands of Koreans people and Korean government.
Well it is a possible interpretation. But another interpretation is that Korean people overreact to it because they want to evade their own responsibility. This interpretation is reinforced by the fact so far there is no imminent movement to atone for the injustice done on the Korean comfort women after the liberation, but just the bizarre silence about it.
Note also if not me but a native Korean points out the facts above , I think many people, non ethnocentric people would praise her.
Comfort stations during Korean war poses the interesting question. Do Korean people accuse the US and will make her apologize because the US was the main player of that while being silent about their government because the women were victimized by Koreans? Or do they not want to accuse anybody because it will reveal injustice of Korea as well?
Japan is to blame as to the colonization, and hence she apologized many times, But that does not means Koran people can demand endless apologies nor does it mean they can impose their myth on the world. For instance, they can’t make up the
story that Korean women were systematically recruited forcibly through Teishintai, there was no Korean brokers, there were no (Japanese and) Korea parents who sold their daughters, there is no need to apologize for the Korean comfort women after the liberation.
When Jesus pointed out “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”,the accusers began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones. His
statement, in one interpretation, functioned to induce the soul-searching on the part of the accusers—this would be especially more so if the women in question had already apologized several times. Young people went out last. But it seems some Korean people would keep throwing stones, nevertheless. Of course there are Korean American bloggers like Asian pages, Kusan A,B Scribblings of the Metropolitician, who take balanced view, but in my impression, that is not the case with Korean media and Korean people in general.
I think many Japanese are sick and tired
of the game with Korea. Historical debates are okay but why not leave them to historians. And this statement hold also for Japanese politicians.
I thank Marmot for giving a dissident like me space to write what I want to say. No sarcasm intended.
This is true.
This is false.
We are permitted to simplify. This issue is not one about “sin” or something quite so general. Once it’s understood how particular the Korean grievance is, which is about Japanese aggression, not just any aggression, then we can understand why Korea would be able to throw the stone: They have not made sex slaves of Japanese women.
The topic is Japan’s war crimes. By extension, it’s Korea’s relation to Japan as a post-colonial country. If we don’t appreciate that such things as sex slavery or the nanjing massacres are understood holistically, that is as parts of a larger set of offenses, then we will lose focus and misunderstand what is driving the political phenomena that we see. The issue of Japanese politics in Asia is a very live and distinct problem. What would the West be like if Germans took the Japanese route and split hairs and displaced blame everywhere they could?
ponta,
100% in agreement with you. Though I haven’t seen anyone denying these facts here.
I do see a need to make a distinction. The actions of Korean brokers and (possibly) Korean parents who sold their daughters, while reprehensible, were the acts of private individuals. The establishment of comfort stations whose “employees” were taken from distant lands under colonial control was the act of a government. It’s not valid to equate the acts of a government with the individual acts of private individuals.
As for Korea’s post-war comfort stations, and more generally her tolerance for prostitution, I personally think that Korea has quite a bit of soul-searching to do on these issues. But they deserve to be considered on their own merits. Tossing them out to deflect criticism of Japanese war crimes cheapens them. It leads me to ask the question, does this person really care about the victimization of women? Or is he just cynically dragging out all the dirty laundry he can to confuse the issue? It reminds me of the cynical defense lawyer who tries to drag a rape victim’s sexual history into court and make it an issue during the rapist’s trial. Far from a perfect analogy, I know, but I think these deflection tactics arouse similar sentiments of disgust among many people.
And finally: a~g, well put @ 65.