Since some of the commentors have asked, I’ve quickly jotted down some commentary as to why I find the WaPo ad on the comfort women offensive.
From Fact 1:
No historical document has ever been found my historians or research organizations that positively demonstrate that women were forced against their will into prostitution by the Japanese Army. A search of the archives at the Japan Center for Asian Historical Records…”
Fact 1 neglects to mention, however, that one reason documentary evidence may be lacking is because Japan had 15 days between surrender and the arrival of the occupation forces to burn its documents:
The difference between the German and Japanese surrenders had a profound influence on each country’s documentation of the army, navy and the war in general. The rapid pace of the Allied advance through Germany meant that a large quantity of historically important material was requisitioned before it could be destroyed. In contrast, Japan had plenty of time to dispose of its records between the announcement of the surrender on 15 August and the landing of Allied forces on 30 August.[1] During this period some 2.5 million Japanese troops remained under the command of the Japanese armed forces, and before the arrival of the Allies they undertook the “Great Incineration Operation” ordered by the government. There is no evidence that measures to stop this destruction of records were taken by the Allies even after their arrival in Japan, though a “strong recommendation” against further destruction was apparently issued from GHQ (according to the Washington Document Centre).
One can only guess at the percentage of documents that was destroyed in the ten weeks between the surrender and the order to halt the incineration. When considering this question in the past I estimated that 99 per cent was incinerated, but I have come to think recently that it is closer to 99.9 per cent. Even the remaining 0.01 per cent has not received adequate historical examination because this period has traditionally been the preserve of political scientists. Recently, however, it has at last become possible for historians such as myself to make advances in this field and to establish the whereabouts of these materials.
More from Fact 1:
On the contrary, many documents were found warning private brokers not to force women to work against their will.
Amazing how those documents apparently didn’t get burnt. And at any rate, the fact that such directives existed on paper doesn’t mean that they translated into practice — the fact that Korea does, in fact, have laws on the books against prostitution and periodically conducts “crackdowns” doesn’t change the fact that the country has long looked the other way at the practice. Even the United States Office of War Information report sited in the WaPo ad says about the recruiting:
Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for “comfort service” in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this “service” was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.
Or how about this US Army document, Kunming-REG-OP-3:
With the exception of Mrs.Hwang Nam-suk, all of the 23 women became “comfortgirls”, apparently under compulsion and misrepresentation. The fifteen who left Korea in July, 1943, for example, were recruited through advertisements in Korean newspapers offering employment for girls in Japanese factories in Singapore. The contingent with which they were sent southward included at least 300 girls who were similarly misled.
Those warning didn’t do a whole lot of good, apparently.
From Fact 2:
There are many newspaper articles, moreover, that demonstrate that these directives were dutifully carried out. The August 31, 1939 issue of the Dong-A Ilbo…
Well, if you can’t believe a pro-Japanese newspaper founded by collaborator extraordinaire Kim Song-su in a colony run by a militarist dictatorship, who can you believe? I guess next we’ll be citing the Rodong Shinmun as evidence that Megumi Yokota really is dead. At any rate, I’ll grant for the moment that the Dong-A Ilbo report (as well as the “many other newspaper articles”) may be factually accurate. After all, I’ve read stories about Korean police conducting campaigns to make drivers respect the stop line. I’ve even seen said campaign with my own two eyes. Back to the point, however, both US Army documents (including the one cited in the ad) and testimonies by former comfort women indicate that many of the women who ended up in the camps were tricked into it. So if those directives were “dutifully carried out,” as the ad claims, even the documentary evidence it cites later on (albeit for a different point) says otherwise. Of course, the number of women in the reports and testimonies, even if completely reliable, are only a fraction of the number who served as “comfort women,” so it’s hard to compute actual percentages, and I seriously doubt we’ll ever find actual statistics in whatever Japanese records may have survived the flames of late August 1945.
Going on, from Fact 3:
There were admittedly cases, though, of breakdowns in discipline.
You don’t say. Again, the two reports suggest and testimonies suggest many women were working against their will, and the officers responsible were not punished — in the Burma camp, the colonel in charge of the camp deserted to avoid enemy capture, while there is no mention of the fate of the commanding officers in the Chinese camp in the part of the report I’ve seen. Since they bring up the Indonesian case, however, it does beg the question, as commenter Jing once pointed out, whether serving as a “comfort woman” counts as “rape” only when it involves white women. From Yuki Tanaka (or a review thereof):
Why did the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal hear mass evidence regarding the ill-treatment, rape and murder of Allied soldiers and civilians and fail to consider evidence of systemic crimes against ‘comfort’ women? One explanation, Tanaka suggests, is that as most of the ‘comfort’ women were ‘Asian’, rather than Western—the largest exception being Dutch women in the Dutch East Indies—the invisibility of the ‘comfort’ women provides further evidence supporting the ‘absence of Asia’ remarks often made about the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, where both the aggrieved and those giving justice tended to be Western (p. 87). Yet Tanaka does not reconcile this argument with earlier discussion regarding the ‘various testimonies presented at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal regarding the Rape of Nanjing’ (p. 29). He admits that details regarding the rape of Dutch civilian women in March 1942, for example, were raised at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal but argues this was only to provide evidence that crimes had been committed against Allied civilians (pp. 61-3). A more concrete example of the fixation with Western victims, Tanaka suggests, can be seen in the proceedings of the Batavia War Crimes Tribunal, which was conducted by Dutch authorities in February 1948. In one case this tribunal tried twelve Japanese in relation to the forced prostitution of Dutch women held in internment camps in Semarang, Java in 1943 (p. 76). Although Tanaka does not make it clear, the basis of the Dutch prosecution seemed to be the Geneva Convention of 1929. While not a signatory to the convention, Japan had given a qualified promise to follow the Geneva rules in 1942, one of which prohibited forced prostitution of prisoners-of-war. Disappointingly, Tanaka does not pursue a line of inquiry as to whether Indo-Dutch, Indonesian, Filipino, or perhaps even Korean, ‘comfort’ women could have had a similar status to the Dutch as prisoners-of-war during this period. He merely notes that the Dutch authorities questioned Indonesian, Indo-Dutch and Chinese ‘comfort’ women about their experiences in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies but that only two cases involving non-Dutch women were ever raised at the Batavia War Crimes Tribunal (pp. 78-9). While it might be expected that a separate Dutch war crimes inquiry would focus on Dutch women in this manner, Tanaka seems to imbue the Batavia War Crimes Tribunal with responsibility for a regional jurisdiction, to which it failed to respond adequately. It appears to Tanaka, therefore, that the victimisation of predominantly Asian ‘comfort’ women inevitably took second-place to other war crimes investigated and prosecuted by the Allies.
However, Tanaka’s primary argument is that the Allied nations’ own ’sexual ideology’—their treatment of non-Western women prior to the war, their practice and attempt to cover-up military-controlled prostitution during the war and their complicity in the establishment of a similar ‘comfort’ system for Allied personnel during the Occupation in Japan—is a telling factor in the lack of Allied prosecution (p. 87). Regarding the Dutch East Indies, for example, Tanaka argues that as the Dutch sexually exploited large numbers of Indonesian women while a colonial power in the region, it followed that the sexual abuse of Indonesian and Indo-Dutch women by the Japanese would probably not have been viewed by the Dutch as a serious crime (p. 82). During the war itself, Tanaka clarifies that the Allied ’sexual ideology’ made it ‘quite natural that [the Allies] were completely unable to discern the criminal nature of the comfort women system’ (p. 109). As the Pulitzer Prize-winning historian of Japan, John Dower, notes in a short review printed on the back of the volume, this is a ’stunning and controversial’ new direction of analysis.
About Fact 4: I find it interesting that it starts by pointing out that the “comfort women” testimony itself supports the notion that the Japanese military did not directly impress women into sexual slavery, but then points out that the women’s testimony is unreliable because it has changed “since the start of the anti-Japanese campaign.” So, are we then to take it that the testimony that they weren’t whisked away by the Japanese Army is reliable, but tales of abuse aren’t?
From Fact 5:
The iafu who were embedded with the Japanese Army were not, as is commonly reported, “sex slaves.” They were working under a system of licensed prostitution that was commonplace around the world at the time. Many of the women, in fact, earned incomes far in excess of what were paid to field officers and even generals (as reported by the United States Office of War Information, Psychological Warfare Team Attached to US Army Forces, India-Burma Theater APO 689) and there are many testimonies attesting to the fact that they were well treated.
This is the most offensive part, IMHO, owing particularly to that last line — well treated, indeed! It also indicates that the ad goes beyond the usual “redefining coercion” (unless, of course, it’s to redefine “coercion” away from “tricked into it by local pimps,” as I’d like to think Shinzo Abe meant it, to “coerced by poverty”) to present the comfort women as highly paid, well-treated prostitutes. The odd thing is, even the report the ad itself chose to cite (which, coincidentally, I don’t entirely trust — the “personality” description leads me to wonder about the individual who wrote it) to prove how well-paid they were ALSO indicates that many of the women at the Burma camp that was surveyed were deceived into their positions, contradicting Fact 2. Sorry for re-citing, but:
Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for “comfort service” in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this “service” was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.
So, is this the form of “licensed prostitution that was commonplace around the world at the time?” Tricking girls to Southeast Asia with false advertisements and putting them to work as prostitutes serving the army of the colonial overlord once they got there? And even if it were, would the fact that other colonial powers took sexual advantage of colonial women make Japan’s behavior any better? Would the fact that both Japan and Korea continued the practice for US troops after the war make a difference? I don’t think so.
Also from Fact 5:
There are records of soldiers being punished for acts of violence against the women. Many countries set up brothels for their armies, in fact, to prevent soldiers from committing rape against private citizens. (In 1945, for instance, Occupation authorities asked the Japanese government to set up hygienic and safe “comfort stations” to prevent rape by American soldiers.)
Where there’s an army base, there’s a brothel. Fine. You can even find brothels in areas with no military presence at all. But if the US had, let’s say, supplied its army brothels in Japan with, say, Filipino women tricked into it by local recruiters while US colonial administrators turned a blind eye, it’s a different story. That’s human trafficking and, yes, sexual slavery. And for what it’s worth, in “Embracing Defeat,” John W. Dower included a very disturbing account of those “hygienic and safe” comfort stations set up in 1945 (can’t find my copy at the moment) — if the inclusion of the last sentence was supposed to make be feel better about the comfort women’s plight, it doesn’t.
For the record, I’d think there’s a lot of bullshit going around in Japan, Korea and the United States about the comfort women.
Korea couldn’t have cared less about the comfort women for most of its post-Liberation history (for a number of reasons, including the low social position of women until very recently and the fact that the country was run by Japanese collaborators for much of that history, including 18 years by a man who spent WWII as a second lieutenant in the Japanese Army), and moreover, if it really wanted to be honest about what happened, it would start with the realization that most of the girls were probably sold to the Japanese Army by collaborating Korean brokers.
Meanwhile, it’s hard to make what the current Japanese government (as opposed to the people who ran the ad) is up to, although some of Shinzo Abe’s past statements on the issue don’t bode well. I’m also afraid — sorry for speculating here — that if a concrete definition of “coercion” isn’t arrived upon soon, “coercion” might get watered down into “coerced by circumstances like poverty,” which might then lead to claims that since Japan “helped modernize and develop Korea during colonial rule,” those circumstances were “native Korean poverty,” completely absolving Japan of any guilt whatsoever.
Lastly, we have the Americans. I’ve already explained that I think Rep. Honda’s resolution is a bad idea. Like the United States doesn’t have enough to worry about right now that it’s intervening in the interpretation of other countries’ history. I might also add that judging from the US Army reports cited above, the US knew women were being pressed into sexual service, but apparently didn’t feel Asians raping other Asians warranted inclusion in the Tokyo Tribunal. This probably shouldn’t come as a complete surprise — Washington didn’t feel biological warfare experiments and live vivisections on largely Chinese victims warranted inclusion, either (as long as it got its hands on the data), although abuse of Western POWs did. Moreover, reports indicate US troops would make use of comfort stations during the occupation of Japan and during the Korean War.
In the end, the Korean comfort women suffered abuse at the hands of three governments, including their own.
Anyway, I’ll let the commentors have fun with this.



54 Comments
Notice how they tried to placate the Dutch (I would say it’s a tactic of appealing and getting approval from the Western senses) by saying “yes admittedly, there were some rape of Dutch women -we’re sorry about that- but we stopped it in time. But as for those Asian women, they’re all lying because they were all well paid whores - don’t believe them”.
As for Honda, I do agree with you, he should not have brought up the issue since it’s not a pressing matter for the US. But I do understand where he’s coming from. His family probably suffered from the same injustices (American Internment of Japanese Americans) as these women, and feel that justice should be universal. I applaud the man, although his methods are not good.
This post is about as fair, balanced, and reality-based as it’s going to get; not as bad as the Koreans claim, but a helluva lot worse than the Japanese and related deniers will ever admit.
Did the Japanese government and imperial army order their people to kidnap teenage girls in Korean peninsula to deport them to the “sex slave” camp in the South-East Asia and they successfully destroyed all of the inconvenient documents at the end of the war?
Did the Japanese government and imperial army allocate their precious resources—soldiers and transportations—to kidnap and deport those Korean girls, while their other soldiers were disparately fighting against the U.S. and other allied forces?
Did the Japanese imperial army and its soldiers have a special taste on Korean girls so much that they deported those girls to the south-east Asia even though they could kidnap local girls as easily as they could in Korean peninsula?
Did the Japanese government and imperial army care about their soldiers fighting in the south so much that they sent “sex slaves” instead of sending medical doctors and nurses (and factory workers)?
Did the family members of those Korean girls not protest at all when they found their daughters or sisters disappeared or forcefully taken? Or, did the police stations in Korean peninsula destroy all of the kidnap related (or missing person) documents successfully at the end of the war?
All of the above do not make sense to me. The Japanese soldiers may be dispensable at that time, but, ships and fuels were extremely precious.
One of the possible explanations is that the Japanese government indeed wanted to recruit and transfer nurses and other medical assistants to the south but there were some bad recruiters (possibly both Japanese and Korean) who sold the girls to the comfort station.
“But I do understand where he’s coming from. His family probably suffered from the same injustices (American Internment of Japanese Americans) as these women….”
Let’s see if I’ve got this right. American WWII internment of US citizens of Japanese descent = moral equivalent of use of Asian “comfort women” by Japanese military, is that correct?
“….In 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act that provided redress for Japanese-Americans. Each living survivor was paid $20,000 for the forced incarceration….”
The Americans paid reparations; the Japanese refused any to their ex-comfort women. But — maybe you consider that fact a validation of your point.
After all — if it two situations weren’t equivalent, everyone knows the Americans wouldn’t have paid anything! Is that how you see it?
Help me out, cm; I’m trying to grope towards a clearer understanding of your “universal justice”.
furthermore, the US gave a blanket statement of “US did absolutely wrong by implementing the Japanese internment camp”
could that be possibly 100% true?
No way.
There were people in the US spying for Japan.
War is war. Every war has a spy.
However, the US, after 50 some years, decided not to even excuse itself.
Japan?
Regarding the comfort women,
1. it was done to prevent rape.
2. they were paid better than generals.
3. everything was within internal law and norms.
4. it was legal.
5. did it for peace and justice in the conquered areas.
Bullshit. Eat shit, LDP Japan.
That was well-said, especially your conclusion. My two won is that the Japanese gov’t ought to pass legislation like the German Holocaust denial laws that acknowledge basic facts about Japan’s WWII actions and prohibits lawmakers from putting out stupid ads like this in the first place. I know some will say it impinges on freedom of speech, but again as in Germnay this is an area that could use some policing and it’s to Japan’s benefit to maintain an official stance of apology that doesn’t get damaged by successive politicians.
“Did the Japanese imperial army and its soldiers have a special taste on Korean girls so much that they deported those girls to the south-east Asia even though they could kidnap local girls as easily as they could in Korean peninsula?”
The whole point of the comfort women system was to discourage soldiers from raping local women. Importing foreign women into Southeast Asia made sense because the women were less likely to run away and because locals would not be outraged by the use of foreign women in the camps.
“Did the Japanese government and imperial army care about their soldiers fighting in the south so much that they sent “sex slaves” instead of sending medical doctors and nurses (and factory workers)?”
There were medical personnel, too. The comfort women were checked periodically by doctors.
“Did the family members of those Korean girls not protest at all when they found their daughters or sisters disappeared or forcefully taken? Or, did the police stations in Korean peninsula destroy all of the kidnap related (or missing person) documents successfully at the end of the war?”
It is likely that families did file missing persons reports and that those reports disappeared. Keeping such records was probably not a high priority during the chaotic period at the end of the war.
Well reasoned post.
I wish every time Onishi of NYT and the Korea media run an article about the “sex slave” under Japanese rule without mentioning the counterpart on Korean part, and the U.S. part—such articles should be offensive by the same token—-, you remind the readership of the comfort women under Korean government and under the US occupation by running the follow-up post like this.
Though I disagree with some points on the post, I agree that Honda, to whom the large number of Chinese anti-acitivists donate, should not brought up the issue.
I doubt if this ad was useful in any meaningful way.
ponta, get off it. The Japanese did wrong by these women.
Others did too, and they should be held accountable. But finger pointing and screaming “They did it too!” every time someone rightly makes an issue of the Japanese wrongdoing—as you and others seem to do every time this issue is discussed—is passing the buck. Others’ wrongdoing does not mitigate or absolve the wrongdoing of the Imperial Japanese Army and the Japanese government. What part of that don’t you understand?!
“Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for “comfort service” in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this “service” was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.”
Not only that, they targeted young single women, most of which were sexually inexperienced. I really doubt many of these young high school girls and young adults thought they would be anything else but nurses or cooks.
SomeguyinKorea
Thanks
As I said again and again I have no intention to alleviate the responsibility of Japan for the failed system of the comfort station just as Yuki Tanaka and others are not absolving Japan by bringing up the topic of Korean guilt on the matter of comfort women as well as guilt on Japan’s part.
As I said again and again, Japan was mostly blame, and as I understand it, the government stands by the statements made by several PMs.
Korean government hasn’t issued any with regard to the comfort women under her government.
Don’t pass the buck by focusing on only Japan but face to the rest of the story in which Korean brokers continued to hold the same evil practice of Japanese rule even after the “liberation” under Korean
government.
I can understand the complaints that
the ad is not telling the whole story, but by the same token, there should be more complaints about Korean media because they are not telling a story a bit about the crime of the same kind committed under Korea.
If I remember correctly, some Korean people are saying that “the western whores” as Korean people call them voluntarily worked for the UN troops while every comfort women under Japanese rule were constricted forcibly and hence, Koreans are innocent, Japan evil. I don’t understand why people who felt this ad disgusting do not feel the reaction of such Koreans disgusting.
The fact is the evil practice continued in Asia.
We have much to learn form it.
If the same amount of energy and time were spent on the comfort women
under Korean government in Korea, Korea will be much nicer society.
What’s stopping you from making Korea better society?
I am sorry , but the comment like yours make me believe that after all
people accusing Japan’s reaction are not doing it for the victims, but as usual it is just one exemplification of Korean Han culture.
“This post is about as fair, balanced, and reality-based as it’s going to get; not as bad as the Koreans claim, but a helluva lot worse than the Japanese and related deniers will ever admit.”
You nailed it right on the head.
“As I said again and again, Japan was mostly blame, and as I understand it, the government stands by the statements made by several PMs.”
I find that increasingly hard to believe as the days go by.
Nice post Robert.
Have you ever thought of going out on your own and getting your own blog?
neastud — Thanks.
And according to my monthly credit card statement, this is my blog.
Well, Ponta.
I don’t believe the Japanese nor the Koreans share some kind of collective guilt. Sure, they need to gaze into the shadow of history (and you could say they are guilty of not having done so with total honesty). But, the argument that the younger generation somehow responsible for events that took place long ago miss a very important fact: they weren’t even born yet. I do believe that Koreans and Japanese who were directly involved in the trafficking of these young women should be prosecuted if they are still alive. The Korean government, on the other hand…It’s a hard sell as there was no Korean government prior to the end of WW2 (the Japanese government, on the other hand…) So, should the Japanese government be made to pay more? Well, they have and they indirectly still do…But, that should be a matter that should brought up to international courts, not the tabloid newspapers.
“there should be more complaints about Korean media because they are not telling a story a bit about the crime of the same kind committed under Korea.”
One cannot lodge a criminal case without victims. To my knowledge, no Korean women have come forward to accuse the Korean government of forcing them into having sex with UN soldiers or American GIs. This is not because Koreans won’t point an accusatory finger at their own government. There have been allegations and charges of political persecution, torture and murderous atrocities during the post-war dictatorships, some resulting in convictions.
“neastud — Thanks.
And according to my monthly credit card statement, this is my blog.”
Ha,ha,ha
That was funy.
No offense intended neastud.
The Japanese set up “comfort stations” in Japan following the surrender ostensibly to “protect” the Japanese culture from what they expected would be the rape and pillage of all Japanese women by the hairy backed, smelly American occupation forces.
The governement asked Japanese women to “volunteer” for as duty to their country and to protect the race. Many did and as part of their employ were given medical examinations, and contaceptives. It took until the late 1940’s for the morality groups in the US to find out about these little secrets and put the cabbosh on all of the “government sponsored” and endorsed facilities.
What is the Korean government stance on the “steam bath and massage” establishments around all the ROK bases?
Are those women employed by the goverment to provide a service to the military? Is it a contract like the AAFES “steam and creams” that closed in the late 80’s?
Isn’t the anemic enforcement of red light districts, escort services and “happy ending” haircuts all around this country the equivalent of support? Why should we be only worried about the grandmothers who were lied to in the 1940’s?
Oh, I forgot, human rights aren’t an issue with the domestic population or the nK’s.
Sorry, just a bad hair day.
Here you are, an almost identical thread on Digg last month:
http://digg.com/world_news/New.....sex_slaves
Around and around you go.
SomeguyinKorea
Thanks.
I am not mainly talking about Korean brokers under the Japanese rule. Sure Japan was mostly blame for that period.
But notice before and after Japanese rule, there have been Korean brokers trading the Korean women.
During Korean War, and around the A-town, there have been Korean brokers abusing the Korean women.
During Korean war, Korean troop was directly involved with setting up the brothels, and administration recruited the sex slave.
And
(Sex among allies)
This is exactly the same system Japan employed.
Some say it is a legacy of Japan, but that is absurd. Why the hell do Korean people have to imitate things they abhor and blame so fervently?
Even the ad admits the women suffered greatly and they cotemplate the tragedy
with profound regret.
Don’t you think those victimized women under Korean government need apology?
Or is keeping ignoring the issue as Korean media and government is doing the best defence because if the Korean media does not pick up the blog like this will not pick up and you can keep nitpicking Japan’s reaction?
Really I want to ask.
What are people trying to do?
Are they trying to help the vicims?
Then why not help the victims who are Korean brethren vicimized by Korea?
Are they trying to set history correct?
Then why not face Korean history after liberation in which the Korea women were abused in the same way as under Japanese rule ?
Japan and Korea and the US has someting in common–the abuse of the women by military—then here is something we can work together without falling into the prey of nationalism.
ponta,
not that i accept the basic framework of your comments, but think of this in terms of civillian murder. koreans murder koreans. americans murder americans. however it is something different when something as variable as tourist-from-foreign-nation-x murders a civillian or someone you know. people don’t feel as disposed to accept such general human ills as homicide when its source is a social variable — a guy who shouldn’t have been in town in the first place. it’s, however, worse if this guy is in town because his nation imperalized yours and the whole nine. it’s worse if his nation is proud of exactly that imperialism, if this nation goes out of its way to “pass the buck” as a political norm and so on. i think it’s a little racist, but that’s just me. anyway, there is good grounds to seperate these issues and treat them as their own, respectively. there’s no need for such conflations.
You mean, like Cho Seung-hui?
abcdefg
Thanks
If you want to say it was wrong for Japan to colonize Korea. I agree. And you can keep complaining as many Korean people are doing. Japan was evil and Japan is evil, and Japan will be evil—I don’t think I would like to change that Korean perception—that seems to be a matter of ethnic identity.
But think of it; Does it matter for the women victimized? what is the difference between a woman victimized by Korean brokers under Japanese rule and a woman vicitimized by Korean brokers under Korean governmen/troop?
What is the difference between a woman raped by Japanese soldiers and a woman raped by Korean or American soldiers.
get;
Korean comfort stations and brothel around American town might not have been as bad as the feminists claim, but I guess ,a helluva lot worse than the Koreans and Americans and related deniers will ever admit.
I think there is very strong biased force going on in Korea against Japan.
When there is ad that does not tell a whole story about the comfort station published by Japanese it is offending.
When there is no story published about Korean comfort women vitimized under Korean government, it is not offending, or nobody pick it up, complete silence.
Who can not see their real motivation of accusing Japan?
d,
the peculiar feature of american ideology and life is that a major part of it is its immigrants, its 1st and 1.5 generation residents who work, grow up, toil and find a way in america as a permanent home. this aspect is in a sense invariable and quite unlike the variable “tourist” my comment presumes above. so, no, it’s not like cho seung hui.
ponta,
i’m sure japanese don’t deflect, generalize, or even “koreanize” what they do because they are so concerned with the welfare of the individuals who sufferred as a result of their or any war, without regard to nation, race, or ethnicity. you may be but your government has other concerns. it’s true, i tend to view the japanese agenda of “passing the buck” or conflating rather seperate issues as a racist agenda, and it seems twofold: 1) minimize the bad in the wars japan has waged. 2) demonize koreans in the process. i’m not sure which of two is more thoroughgoing or deeprooted in japanese society. when j nationalists are so insistent on deflecting the issue, they seem to do it for no other purpose.
it’s called being colonized. korea’s culture viz japan is postcolonial. as such, it’s political in nature (vs ethnic) and can’t be understood fully without a view to this context. i’m not sure if concerned japanese understand this. but, nonetheless, there’s no reason we need to make a particular issue a general one or extend it to other issues. i’m not sure if that’s logically valid.
also, as long as japan continues to tender politics as it does, certain wounds will stay open. who should be criticized in this context? i’m not sure if it matters.
abcdefg
thanks.
So
(1)do you think if korea did the wrong of the same kind , Japanese wrong will be minimized?
So
(2)do you think Korean people are trying to demonize Japan in the process of helping the former comfort women?
I really wonder what this complete apathy among people related to Korea toward the comfort women victimized under Korean government is.
when it comes to Japan, people bother to check the facts, saying “hey this is not the whole story, they are denier etc”.When it comes to Korea, since Korean media or Onishi of NYT are determined to be silent, nobody in Korea care, everyone in Korea wants to forget. Are those who ignore the crime better than those who do not tell the whole story?
When the the issue came out in Japan, Japanese activists visited korea to search for the former comfort women:it is not that first the former comfort women came forward and the issue came out, the truth is the other way around.
why not search for the former comfort women victimized under Korea? They should be much younger. what is clear is Korean (local) government recruited Ianfu, comfort women as Occidentalism pointed out.
Feminist’s description of comfort station druing Korean War and brothels around American town are exactly like the ones under Japanese rule. They might not be totally right. You can check it. I won’t call you a Holocaust denier for doing that. You may disagree with them.
But the fact that there are various interpretations does not mean the government does not, or needs not hold responsibility, in particular when the government makes her position clear. Korean government can make her position clear, and Korean people can make their own government do that for their own people.
“do you think if korea did the wrong of the same kind , Japanese wrong will be minimized?”
– something will change. the strong view of japan as a uniquely evil nation (with regard to comfort woman at least) will be void, for one. but i think the central historical question of interest is whether the systematic rape of various women by japanese is due to wilful japanese administration as a primary cause and not as a trivial side effect where one is basically saying “japan raped but that’s what everybody was doing, and that’s what the girls were for.” what the reality, historically, here can turn out to be gives us 3 cases. 1 case is the revisionist one you represent. another case is the orthodox korean (chinese and generally western) case. the third is a mixture, but it still implicates japan as a nation that’s got a lot of apologizing to do. that’s 2 of 3 in which japan’s wrongs are not triviliazed.
if that’s the case, they are demonizing demon actions. which is not bad — quite unlike the all-purpose racism i see from japanese nationalists every time i visit naver, youtube, occidentalism, or 2ch. monomaniacs they are. their message goes quite beyond comfort women and politics. this last point is very salient here. it’s been noted on this or the other comments page that there was no korean government back then, no lingering political entities that can be held liable. there were, however, koreans but then you are making this a moral and even a genetic, race issue rather than international political one. logically when koreans criticize koreans, they can hold factions, political leaders, or other individuals in condemnation. they cannot hold “koreans” in condemnation. to be totally fair, they can hold their government in the wrong if they or their historians systematically deny the existence of such leaders or groups. but that is not the case.
ponta, I don’t think anyone would disagree (at least, I hope to hell they wouldn’t) that the abuse of women is a bad thing. I think they’d agree that that a government-approved system of such abuse is even worse than isolated incidents of such. Whether it was the Americans, the Japanese, or the Koreans doing it, it was wrong.Okay? No one disagrees with that premise.
But I, for one, am incredibly suspicious of your motives. Because I see you coming around and blowing your trumpet about the Koreans’ and Americans’ comfort stations when (and only when) someone takes Japan to task for theirs.
In fact, the issue at hand isn’t even the existence of the Japanese system. The issue here is the recent denials and revisionism by Japanese academics—and endorsed by some Japanese politicians—stating that coercion didn’t happen, the women were there voluntarily, etc. Their aim is to minimize the culpability of the Japanese military and government.
By coming around and bleating about the Korean and American comfort stations when outrages such as the revisionist ad come to pass, you seem to be defending the mealy-mouthed revisionists. You seem to be attempting to deflect attention from the issue at hand by screaming that others did the same thing. Logic has a name for this: the tu quoque (you too), and it is grouped among the informal fallacies. “Informal” because it doesn’t even address the truth or falsity of the propositions being argued, but rather seeks to distract from those questions of truth and falsity. And “fallacy” because it is a false argument.
Perhaps I’m wrong about your motives, ponta; in fact, I hope so. Perhaps you’re an ardent crusader for vindicating the dignity of the women who have been victims of systematic sex slavery over the years. Perhaps you’re as horrified and revulsed as I am by the revisionists’ attempts to paint these victims as nothing but well-paid whores with second thoughts. I hope so.
But whatever your motives, your drum-banging about the Korean, American, and anyone else’s comfort stations is out of place here. The issue at hand is the Japanese system: it was wrong, and the efforts by some to minimize and justify it are despicable and disgusting.
“I am not mainly talking about Korean brokers under the Japanese rule. Sure Japan was mostly blame for that period.
But notice before and after Japanese rule, there have been Korean brokers trading the Korean women.”
Well, as far as I know, ‘comfort women’ is a term reserved to the women who were forced into prostitution to service Japanese soldiers. That’s what I was talking about. What has happened after WW2 seems like a totally different issue, although not one of lesser importance.
PS. It’s obvious enough that the Korean government actively supported prostitution in the early years and then turned a blind eye to it in the later. You just have count the number of ‘adult’ establishments that are situated just a stone throw away from the police boxes to see that. Heck, Park Jung Hee has such a place build near the Blue House..and he was killed while entertaining ‘the girls’.
abcdefg
Thanks.
So after all that is your purpose?
Hmmm, as expected.
Thanks anyway.
Ut videam
First the ad is not denial. It states there were comfort station.
But, I understand, for instance, the part which says “there are many testimonies attesting to the fact that they were well treated.” is offensive, because it does not tell the whole story.
I guess probably they are talking about the cases like a testimony in Indonesia in which “three Indonesian “victims” who appeared in court as witness, actually testified against the Dutch prosecutors, claiming that, thanks to ishibashi,(Japanese brothel owner–ponta) they had a good life during the war”( page 78 “Japanese comfort woman” Yuki Tanaka)
But we don’t know how many women were like that, as I said, it is imaginable that “many women were made to suffer severe hardships” as the ad said.
And We should keep in mind, as Chung-Hee says,
In response to the question “Is this the form of “licensed prostitution that was commonplace around the world at the time?” Tricking girls to Southeast Asia with false advertisements and putting them to work as prostitutes serving the army of the colonial overlord once they got there?”
One of the reason Tanaka gives why Dutch didn’t take the local women’s case seriously is because there
were similar brothels, temporary wives
system in colonized Indonesia before Japan invaded it. And under the US occupation, according to Katharine H. S. Moo
(Sex among allies)
(Katharine H. S. Moon)
Surely hardly anybody can say say they were well treated.
As for my motive, I am not sure. I can
analyze my “true” motive in my own way you can analyze my “true” motive in your way. Maybe it is mixed—I don’t know.
But anyway I am trying to draw the logical conclusion from the issue.
As I said, here are at least two cases in front of us; one is comfort stations under Japanese rule in which the women were abused. Another is the comfort station under Korea government in which
the women were abused in the same way.
The issue is the abuse of women by military.
Japanese activists visited Korea to search for the comfort women, backed up by Japanese activists and Korean organizations, the comfort women came forward and testified.
The Japanese government apologized several times. But many people complain, saying that they was not sincere. The Korean organization prevented the comfort women from receiving the fund from the foundation, saying that they want money from the government.
The Korean government hasn’t apologized.
It seems people are not even informed of the fact. The victims are left helpless.
But Korean media just keep blaming Japan, ignoring the Korean victims after the “liberation”.
What I am saying is that something is wrong here—I feel some biased force is going on here.
SomeguyinKorea
So sadly you are not informed of the fact
“the comfort women”慰安婦ianfu was used for the women to be registered.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=567
You’re very slithery in your remarks, ponta. But then again, you’re the same guy who once called my own family members in Korea “collaborators” because they were forced to learn Japanese under the colonization in Korea. With that in mind, your recent remarks about the Japanese right-wingers and their denial of Japanese guilt against the Korean comfort women is very well understood.
Robert,
I enjoyed reading this post. It seems like you put a lot of thought and research into it, not to mention that it’s balanced.
Well done, sir
Ponta,
It is true there were and are many in Korea, Japan, the U.S., and other countries alike that are guilt of systematically abusing, raping, and otherwise treating women as less than human beings. However, the specific abuses, motivations, and level of organization are significantly different. Your attempts to confuse the issue by painting all parties with the same brush is naive at best and intentionally deceitful at worst.
The 5 “facts” is a blatant move by the Japanese government* to intentionally mislead others about its past sins. If the Japanese government has not published this document, we would likely not be talking about this subject right now.
I believe it is for this reason - willful ignorance of past sins - that many of Japan’s Asian neighbors do not trust the right-wing elements of the Japanese government. Systematic cover-ups send messages of disrespect and contempt to Japan’s neighbors, who rightly fear that future disasters are thus more likely to happen.
Japan should expect no sympathy or open friendship from its neighbors while it continues to act with such blatant disregard for crimes its military and government systematically committed and then denies.
MigukNamja
Thank you.
And your proof for that is ?
Or it it just a manifestation of the belief Japan was evil Japan is evil, Japan will be evil , Japan is worst?
evil
comfort women. To prevent rape.
Human experiments. To better human life.
Annexing Chosun. To better the land of Chosun.
Conquering Korea, China, Vietnam, Burma, Phillipines.
To protect people of yellow skin from the evil white colonists.
THIS is what Japan is playing with.
Fuck Japan.
Ponta,
Japan is not evil. Please stop acting like a troll.
Excellent analysis there Marmot. Amazing how a hanbok clad mound of mush can produce such a well reasoned critique. From the writings of those who shall not be named, I mistakingly thought the wearing of a hanbok immediately meant you were of a subspecies only good for manual labor to the master race. Thanks for the enlightenment.
If I can make it to Korea again, and I am definitely trying to get clearance, dinner is on me. I’ll keep you informed.
Thanks, Plunge. Good to hear from you, BTW.
MigukNamja
I am sorry if I sounded trolling.
I am asking you substantial argument of your point that “the specific abuses, motivations, and level of organization are significantly different”
Wow, a very interesting and powerful discussion with minimal flaming, kudos Marmot’s Hole.
ponta, you have made some interesting points and I’m glad that you post, but I think that the reason why some people are suggesting that you are trying to pass the buck or trolling could be due to the language barrier.
For example, you said:
“I can understand the complaints that
the ad is not telling the whole story, but by the same token, there should be more complaints about Korean media because they are not telling a story a bit about the crime of the same kind committed under Korea.
If I remember correctly, some Korean people are saying that “the western whores” as Korean people call them voluntarily worked for the UN troops while every comfort women under Japanese rule were constricted forcibly and hence, Koreans are innocent, Japan evil. I don’t understand why people who felt this ad disgusting do not feel the reaction of such Koreans disgusting.
The fact is the evil practice continued in Asia.
We have much to learn form it.”
In this case, you could simply have said:
“I can understand the complains of the ad, but some Koreans are just as disgusting because they employed Western whores for UN troops and did not report/apologize for this. Why don’t you criticize these Koreans instead?”
Much shorter and easier to read, and you make the same point without hopefully any hearsay.
If I bungled the whole western whores thing, my apologies, this was a case where I didn’t understand what you were trying to say, other than that the media doesn’t tell the whole truth.
I’m not trying to make fun of you ponta, I really hope you do keep posting, it’s just that I want to really understand your viewpoint and layman such as myself are not that good at understanding articulate English mixed with some Engrish. I also think that’s why perhaps people think you are trolling or something when that’s not your intent. So yeah, just suggesting you to keep your words as simple as possible and short :).
Also, hopefully you won’t generalize culture as when you said:
“I am sorry , but the comment like yours make me believe that after all people accusing Japan’s reaction are not doing it for the victims, but as usual it is just one exemplification of Korean Han culture.”
Simply because he is replying his opinion on a subject which is currently being discussed and not going off-topic on other issues, doesn’t justify you passing it off as simply, “it must be Korean Han culture”. That comes across as attempting to demonize Koreans, when there is very little grounds to suggest this.
arthjourneyman
thank you very much.
Yes the language barrier must be a big problem. Thank you for pointing it out.
And as for the generalization, yes, if I sounded I overgeneralized, I apologize.
“…the belief Japan was evil Japan is evil, Japan will be evil , Japan is worst?”
Ponta,
very few people outside Korea (and possibly China) believe that THE JAPAN OF TODAY is evil. But then the Japan of today is an entirely different country from the Japan of the period ranging from 1931 to 1945, which was indeed an evil nation.
And so was the Germany of that time. There can be no doubt whatsoever about this latter fact, and you would be hard-pressed to find any German at all who would be prepared to dispute that fact. The notion that the Germany of that time was a manisfestation of evil posing as a nation is so prevalent here that those who try to dispute it are not even regarded as wicked but simply as deluded.
I enjoy living in the Germany of today which is simply a different country from the Germany of those days. A contradictory attitude ? Not really, IMHO.
The admission that the Germany of the fascist period (and to some extent even the Germany of the period ranging from 1871 to 1918) was a manifestation of evil does not in the least detract from the obvious fact that the Germany of today is a very pleasant place, indeed.
Asian people, Koreans, Japanese and Chinese alike, are too deeply steeped in a sense of historical continuity. This attitude is, of course, rooted in Confucianist thought which emphasises the group (and thus the nation) at the expense of the individual.
I (and most other Germans alive today) have never seriously considered us to stand in the shoes of previous generations of Germans. In my case this is particularly obvious (because I have been adopted from outside the country) but more or less the same goes for the ethnic Germans, as well.
If the Germans of the years between 1933 and 1945 were thugs, so what does that mean for us personally ? We weren’t around then, so why should we get upset ?
The Japan of today is a great country, second in economic power to the US only and very pleasant to live in, whereas the Japan of the past was…
post #37:
“Fuck Japan.”
I thought I’d be free of reading kiddie drivel while on summer vacation, but I’d forgotten about those stream-of-consciousness multiple posts at the Marmots.
Fantacy.
Thank you.
As I said on this thread, I think the colonization was wrong and Japan is to blame for the comfort stations under Japanese rule. And as you know, several PMs apologized for it.
I also agree there is nothing upsetting about the past of Japan, however it is evaluated, since we were not living at that times.
As for how we should look at the times of Imperialism, that is a big issue,and a bit off the topic, so let’s discuss it when some related topics comes up.
Still dodging, eh ponta?
“…nothing upsetting about the past of Japan,”
Surely, you’re joking, ponta.
How is it a “bit off topic”? Looking forward to your answer.
Sorry if I failed to convey what I wanted to say.
It was in respond to Fantacy’s comment that”We weren’t around then, so why should we get upset ?” What I wante to say was I agree.
Ponta,
please do not get me wrong - in no way do I intent to attack Japan, quite the contrary. I believe that post-war Japan has continuously been, is, and will remain a much better place to live than countries such as e.g. South Korea, Mainland China etc. (and maybe even better than Germany, as well).
“And as you know, several PMs apologized for it.”
Yes, Ponta, I am aware of this fact.
The problem is, however, that each and every of these apologies has come over to the public as insincere and opportunistic, at least so it seemed to our Western perception. It is this constant “Yes, we have done that, but then again, we haven’t really” attitude of Japan’s which goes so much on everybody’s nerves. Can you modern Japanese not once clearly state “Yes, Imperial Japan was a rogue state and it has committed disgusting atrocities. Full stop.”? In the same vein in which the Germans have recognised the indisputable fact that their country has started two world wars without provocation or good cause and thus is the prime responsible for the loss of some 10 million lives in WWI and of around 55 million lives in WWII (and, in addition, murdered 6 million people in the concentration camps - the most awful crime ever committed in history).
The historical facts are crystal-clear regarding these issues - no ifs, no buts, no cop-outs. Even primary school students in this country are taught extensively about the awful truth. When I was in 1st grade in a regular German primary school as far back as 1971 the teacher dealt with the subject in detail over a period of several weeks. That, of course, was a harassing experience for us six-year olds, but it had to be done. And if I had children of my own I would make sure that they, too, were to be provided with the very same experience.
Maybe we Western people are incapable of understanding the Japanese attitude due to the cultural differences between East Asia and the West - and I am full well aware that the Koreans and Chinese apply the very same tactics when it comes to their own wrongdoings. In spite of the ostensible animosities between them, the three North-East Asian nations are actually quite similar in many respects.
But all of you are shooting yourselves in the foot as the issues will not come to rest and forgiveness will not be granted unless it is preceded by a straight-forward acceptance and admission of guilt…
Japan would have had the Comfort Women issue off the table for decades if she had freely admitted her unmitigated culpability, coupled with adequate compensation for the victims. But the fact remains that her guilt grows with every day she remains in denial…
http://www.reuters.com/article.....mp;sp=true
Wonder what the spin doctors will have to say about this?
Fantasy, well put in #50!
It seems to me everyone is missing the point. Abe and his foreign minister have been engaged in historical revisionism for a very long time. They are part of a LDP clique to restore Japanese “dignity”, in part by doctoring school textbooks. Their entire position on comfort women, as stated in the Washington Post advert (posted by some of the more extreme LDPs) is to delete discussion of such embarrassing issues from books, so that the next generation will have no knowledge of them whatsoever. If you haven’t noticed, they are also denying in the same fashion that the “Rape of Nanking” ever occurred. One of their main authors on that subject is an academician that the US occupation authority kicked out during the reconstruction peiod (his name is Higashinakano Shudo). Abe’s Foreign Minister is from a family that ran a POW slave labor camp. Currently they are maneuvering to amend Constitution Article 19, which forbids a Japanese military. This is an extreme right wing that is engaged in redirecting the entire course of Japanese relationships, somthing like their militarists did during the interwar period. (In a way, theyremind me of Dubya’s administration.) Denying the existence of comfort women is only one leg of their nationalistic/militaristic strategy. It is pretty dastardly of them, though, to take it out on old women who still bear physical and psychological scars regardless of how Abe parses the issue (as in Clinton/Lowinsky, “it depends on what the meaning of ‘forcing’ is”) - cf. Abe’s argument with Diet member Ogawa on YouTube.
Ooops. Mea culpa, with apologies. In #53 above I mistakenly said that historical revisionist Higashinakano Shudo was barred by US occupation authorities post-World War II. Actually it was his colleague and fellow revisionist Tanaka Masaaki. Both have written books claiming that the “Rape of Nanking” never happened, that instead it was propaganda; and that the 141 photographs of atrocities there were faked or taken elsewhere at other times. As to the WaPo advert, I am informed by the WaPo advertising department that it was paid for from Tokyo, by a committee of the so-called “Society for the Dissemination of Historical Fact”. For an adventure in disinformation that would please Joseph Goebbels, check out their website: http://www.sdh-fact.com and read their mission statement. Then click the link to “publications” and you can read synopses of the whacky theories behind the WaPo advert.
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[...] The Marmot’s Hole had this to ad in a very insightful piece, which readers are highly recommended to read: Where there’s an army base, there’s a brothel. Fine. You can even find brothels in areas with no military presence at all. But if the US had, let’s say, supplied its army brothels in Japan with Filipino women tricked into it by local recruiters, it’s a different story. That’s human trafficking and, yes, sexual slavery. And for what it’s worth, in “Embracing Defeat,” John W. Dower included a very disturbing account of those “hygienic and safe” comfort stations set up in 1945 (can’t find my copy at the moment) — if the inclusion of the last sentence was supposed to make be feel better about the comfort women’s plight, it doesn’t. [...]
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