Are you feeling discriminated against? [Korea Times] Seems more like out-of-date laws than intentional discrimination.
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Discrimination
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on May 31, 2007 at 3:09 pm, filed under Asides, Ministry of Barbarian Affairs. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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55 Comments
WTF!!!
What isn’t intentional about laws duly enacted by the legislature that restrict benefits to people on the basis of race, ethnicity or citizenship?
Maybe you can stand the smell, but doesn’t your nose hurt from having it jammed up there?
Sperwer has a point. South Korea has long been a signatory state of the universal declaration of human rights. Not updating its laws to be in compliance with it is nothing but intentional.
I’m just saying, a lot of these laws were probably framed without consideration that people without citizenship — i.e., foreigners — might wish to take advantage of the services provided. Thoughtless, yes, but I don’t think it’s a organized campaign to screw non-Koreans.
There are similar laws around the country. I recall Oranckay relating how he would challenge free admission for Korean nationals to the Korean Folk Museum on holidays.
It’s not an organized campaign; rather, these laws reflect the Korean mindset that foreigners are not “one of us” and therefore not entitled to certain benefits/privileges. It’s not organized, but it is deliberate.
“It’s not organized, but it is deliberate.”
Sonagi has nailed it. Well done.
You mean I can’t into the various monuments to self puffery for free?
On a related note I shall be hosting a smashing slide show entitled: Me, myself and I: There just aren’t enough superlatives.
And yes, admission shall be charged.
Korea: Chinese students not allowed in some PC bongs. Foreigners not allowed in some Saunas
America: Blacks not being allowed to eat in some restaurants.
Sugar coat it anyway you want…it is discrimination.
“Chinese students not allowed in some PC bongs.”
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/m.....2/03/50820
Actually, I remember a case of official preferential treatment at the subway station for foreigners in Korea. In 1992 at Chongyangni Station there was a special ticket line just for foreigners, so foreigners could avoid waiting for ten minutes or so and go right up to the window. Maybe it was leftover from the 88 Olympics, but a few years later it was no longer in operation, and rightly so. Equal treatment is the way to go.
Wow, a old man who can’t get free tickets on the subway is now considered a “human rights violation”? Gimme a break. Please explain to me why Koreans should bestow such privileges to a group of people whose main hobby is looking down on their host nation?
“…a group of people whose main hobby is looking down on their host nation?”
too easy, too easy…
“Please explain to me why Koreans should bestow such privileges to a group of people whose main hobby is looking down on their host nation?”
The man has lived in South Korea for forty years. He’s no guest; he’s a practically a member of the minjok.
Living in South Korea for forty years doesn’t make him a member of minjok, practically or otherwise. He’s not even a Korean citizen.
“Living in South Korea for forty years doesn’t make him a member of minjok, practically or otherwise.”
Thanks for confirming what I wrote in comment #4:
the Korean mindset that foreigners are not “one of us”
the Korean mindset that foreigners are not “one of us”
Maybe this is a chicken and egg thing but, really, if Koreans do not consider foreigners as one of them, then how many foreigners identify as a Korean? Most expats seem to prefer to ridicule Korean-ness. And from what I can gather, expats have their own distinct identity as a group, which is VERY different from the average Korean.
Even in America, the mainstream culture does not bestow privileges upon newcomers unless these newcomers make efforts to assimilate into the dominant culture, such as learning English, etc. Most expats are transitory creatures, their experience in Korea is merely a “phase” and people like the old man in the article are extremely rare exceptions. What percentage of the general population do they compose? Asian-Americans make up about 4-5% of the US population, far more than expats in Korea, I’d presume, and we find that this earns us barely more than a “peep squeak” in terms of a political voice as a constituency in the greatest democracy in the world.
Basically what I am saying is that, as a whole, expats haven’t paid their social dues, in the same sense that generations of immigrants have paid to American society, to be demanding such rights.
#11
“Wow, a old man who can’t get free tickets on the subway is now considered a “human rights violation”? Gimme a break.”
I agree. The example used in the article is pretty lame.
However, I will agree with many other responders that the laws intentionally favor ethnic Koreans and intentionally discriminate against non-ethnic Korean foreigners. The F-4 visa is a perfect example.
“Oh, you know nothing about Korean culture, history, or language, and you want to keep your citizenship in your home country, yet you have Korean blood in you…OK, you’re still considered 100% Korean.”
vs.
The man who has been here for 40 years example and will never be Korean (because he is not an ethnic Korean).
At the same time, the racism works the other way, too. There are numerous examples of how badly gyopos can be treated merely based upon their skin.
It’s time to Korea to shake off its racist laws and social expectations and get with the program.
However, I have faith. Korea will move (perhaps too) slowly to erase the barriers of racial inequality, but it will eventually happen.
Hear, hear. As a loyal American, Netizen Kim, I hope you’ve expressed a similar viewpoint to the State Department (visa waiver and citizenship by ius solis), Social Security Administration (pension benefits), Medicaid and Medicare, local boards of education for elementary and secondary schools, and in-state tuition boards at universities like UCLA — all of which are regularly abused in an organized way by legal and illegal-immigrant Koreans and their “We hate you. Let us in! (And give us your tax money)” attitude. I find that sort of fraudulent benefits chiseling to be far more galling than old folks wanting the same senior-citizens’ discount on their Grand Slam Breakfast at Denny’s.
Netizen Kim,
You are generalizing based on your perceptions of the small group of regular commenters here. I lived in Korea nearly ten years and met foreign nationals of all stripes, including long-term residents who had lived in Korea for decades and spoke the Korean language fluently.
As you noted correctly, a majority of foreign nationals residing in Korea have no intention of staying permanently. The minority who have made the commitment deserve to be recognized. The man in the story has lived in Korea for forty years, probably longer than you’ve been alive. No, he wasn’t born in Korea, but he has spent most of his adult life there. He is the equivalent of a Korean permanent resident in the US.
You know that I myself am fluent in Korean. I liked many things about living in Korea and considered making Korea my permanent home. However, since Korea provides no green card or permanent residency rights to non-ethnic Korean foreigners not married to Korean nationals, I lived from visa to visa, and the maximum stay possible on my visa was 18 years. I didn’t stick around long enough to let the door hit me in the ass on the way out. I am very happy in my new life back here in America, so all has worked out well. I’m glad to live in a country that welcomes people from all over the world to join us.
For cryin’ out loud, Netizen Kim, all the old man wants is free subway tickets, not a seat in the National Assembly. Here in America, Korean green card holders who’ve lived in the US for at least five years are eligible for subsidized housing, food stamps, Medicaid, and other public assistance programs. Elderly Koreans are entitled to senior citizen discounts regardless of nationality or citizenship. All the man wants is to exercise his senior privilege on the subways, and you begrudge him that.
Ah, the appeal to reason. That never works.
And the appeal to fair play. That never works too.
The Hani wrote up a similar, but better piece on virtually the same topic:
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti.....13026.html
Koreans love to think they are special group of people and spend day and night brainwashing their children to believe this. As a group of such special people, they think one of their rights is to discriminate freely. It is discrimination in America but here in this special land it is just a part of the culture.
Once again, sugar coat it any way you want what goes on here is discrimination. Koreans may have brainwashed a few foreigners into believing it isn’t but the majority see it for what it is.
NK,
You have some valid points. However, your logic is lacking on two major points:
1) Not all expats are the same
Just as not all Koreans are the same, not all foreigners and not all ex-pats are the same. There are plenty of whiney ex-pats who have no intention of remaining in Korea. However, they have nothing to do with those who wish to remain in Korea and become Korean citizens other than they are both called “외국인”.
2) Ethnic Koreans get a free pass
It’s called the F-4 visa. To get this visa, you don’t have to speak a word of Korean, know squat about Korean language and culture (much less show respect for it), and you get to keep your citizen ship in the other country to boot ! The only requirement is proof of Korean blood.
So, which person is more Korean : the foreigner who has lived here for a long time, is fluent in Korean, understands and respects Korean culture and history, or simply someone with Korean blood ?
To put it another way:
Which would you rather have in your country : those which know the culture, history, and language and are willing to change themselves to fit into society, or those that simply share the same blood as you with no further requirements ?
Basically, “what does is mean to be Korean ?”
…citizenship…
and
…what does it mean..
Sonagi (crypto Kushibo):
“Thanks for confirming what I wrote in comment #4:
the Korean mindset that foreigners are not “one of us”
I can’t confirm that, at least not in the way that you’re suggesting, as I’m neither Korean nor Kyopo. I think that what you wrote is the truth, though. The difference is that I don’t think it’s inherently bad. Why should your abstract concepts (non-discrimination in this case) have any effect on how Koreans organize their actual society? Should all countries be the same?
At any rate, the fact is that the man in this story is a foreigner (both ethnically and legally) in a place where foreigners are defined very precisely.
“Sonagi (crypto Kushibo)”
Robert and fellow bloggers Richardson and OFK’s Joshua Stanton can confirm that I am not Kushibo. Kushibo is male and was last sighted in Hawaii. I am a woman, and the bloggers named above know my real name, city of residence, and place of employment.
“At any rate, the fact is that the man in this story is a foreigner (both ethnically and legally) in a place where foreigners are defined very precisely.”
And foreign nationals living in Korea have every right to renegotiate that definition. The Human Rights office where the man and other foreigners have lodged their complaints is staffed by Koreans, and judging from the media stories, they are sympathetic to changing laws that are unjust.
“Why should your abstract concepts (non-discrimination in this case) have any effect on how Koreans organize their actual society? “
Dejure non-discrimination is not abstract but very real. Either the law makes distinctions or it doesn’t. Defacto discrimination is also real but harder to prove. Non-discrimination is not an alien concept to Koreans; in recent years, laws have been enacted to break down barriers against women’s participation in employment and society.
“Wow, a old man who can’t get free tickets on the subway is now considered a “human rights violation”? Gimme a break. Please explain to me why Koreans should bestow such privileges to a group of people whose main hobby is looking down on their host nation?”
So you think a guy who has lived and worked here for 40 years is automatically one of those people. Pathetic. Even if it were the case, it is no excuse for discrimination.
I like how the KT article mentions that the gentleman in question “believes” he has paid taxes in Korea. Nice touch.
I agree with the Marmot that discrimination like this probably isn’t done out of malice. Not that this excuses it. Slowly, with developments like the F-2 and F-5 visa, things are improving. As Sonagi pointed out, marriage to a Korean remains a prerequisite, unless you invest hundreds of thousands of dollars, bring a Korean national soccer team to the final four of the World Cup, or something else exceptional.
BTW, Rhesus, it is unusual to meet a non-ethnic Korean literate in both Korean and classical Chinese. What is your background, if I may ask?
Just a point: Discrimination in the United States is allowed IF there is a valid policy reason for it. That last point is generally the crux of all law suits filed over discrimination. As an example here in Asia: Vietnam has a triple pricing system in its tourist and travel industries. There is the tourist price, much higher, the ID card carrying Vietnamese price, much lower in recognition of the economic disparity between Vietnam and the developed world, and in hotels and such, a “Viet Kieu” price, somewhere between the two, for former Vietnamese nationals returning from overseas. I see no problem with Korea having a two-tiered pricing system, but in the case of someone who pays taxes and has been long established here, there is reason to question the rationale behind the policy.
Rhesus; Sonagi isn’t a sock for Kushibo. Kushibo is a male going to school in Hawaii, while Sonagi is neither, and this I know for a fact.
Sonagi (K..uh),
“And foreign nationals living in Korea have every right to renegotiate that definition [that of a foreigner].”
A right granted or declined by Korean society, not something foreigners have by virtue of being human.
“Dejure non-discrimination is not abstract but very real. Either the law makes distinctions or it doesn’t”
Which is more important - the abstraction, or the actual society (in which the law operates)?
“What is your background, if I may ask?”
Sneaky! I lived in Korea for awhile, so I know some Korean. I went to graduate school at St. John’s College in Santa Fe, NM in their “Eastern Classics” program, which has a seminar in Classical Chinese. And what did I get for it? Lotta books…
Richardson,
Thanks, okay. They’ve got very similar writing styles, though.
“As an example here in Asia: Vietnam has a triple pricing system in its tourist and travel industries. There is the tourist price, much higher, the ID card carrying Vietnamese price, much lower in recognition of the economic disparity between Vietnam and the developed world, and in hotels and such, a “Viet Kieu” price, somewhere between the two, for former Vietnamese nationals returning from overseas.”
I remember paying more than the locals to go to the Citadel in Hue, among other places in Vietnam. (Just a few thousand more dong or whatever.) However, most Koreans would not be too happy about being categorized with a developing nation like Vietnam. Because they are not, and haven’t been for a long time. I think a two-tiered system of pricing would be dated here. Also, as a resident (permanent) who pays taxes here, there is plenty of rationale to question policies that, accidentally or deliberately, screw us over.
Ya know - I hate the fact foreignors get dumped on over here (GENERALLY SPEAKING) - via the laws. Wether intentional or not.
HOWEVER, I personnally feel that when the roles are reversed - non-US citizens shouldn’t be garaunteed ANY rights when they are in the States!
I hate it when ILLEGALS (not legalized immigrants) come over, get injured, then get free health care - AND a free trip BACK! That comes out of our pockets (in the states).
ALSO - since I ain’t paying any taxes in Korea (other than sales taxes on the local economy) - they can abuse foreignors in their laws all they want!
No taxation - NO REPRESENTATION!
Thats fine by me. So what if I pay a ‘higher rate’ for entrance fees at some events/locations? So what if I get the ‘guilty by default of being non-korean’ attitude? It’s not my country.
In the end - Koreans HAVE to live here. I can always GO HOME. Its part of the ‘fine print’ of being a foreignor in a foreign land.
Think about how if the ’shoe was on the other foot’.
If you feel NON-CITIZENS have as much rights as CITIZENS - without paying into the government (i.e. taxes) - they yeah, you got a gripe. Albeit - a ridiculous one.
Suck it up. Drive on.
?
#34
Lazy_Contractor, it sounds like things are different for you than some others, including myself.
As a D-7 visa holder, I have to pay Korean income taxes. However, I am not double-taxes, the I.R.S. allows me to deduct my Korean income taxes from my tax liability to the U.S.. As the Korean income tax rate is lower than the the U.S. income tax rate, I’m no worse (or better) off than I worked in the states.
So, you might not want to make sweeping statements about foreigners and how much they do or don’t pay in taxes in Korea.
As for me, if I stay in Korea long enough to be a citizen, act like a responsible citizen, (including having paid taxes all of those years), will keep paying taxes, and make an earnest effort to become a Korean citizen, I sure as hell want representation for my taxation.
I’ll be pissed as hell if they say “Thanks for your money, respect of Korean language, culture, history, and people, now take your non-Korean blood and go back to where you came from.”
And, no, I won’t get in via F-2. My wife is not a Korean citizen nor is she ethnically Korean (and thus F-4′able). I believe this also means I can’t get an F-5 visa since the only path to an F-5 is via an F-2.
It looks like I’ll get the F-off visa.
“A right granted or declined by Korean society, not something foreigners have by virtue of being human.”
Of course, riding the subway for free is not a human right. The elderly man and other foreigners took their complaints to the Human Rights office because that is the office responsible for dealing with discrimination cases.
“Which is more important - the abstraction, or the actual society (in which the law operates)?”
In this case your question is irrelevant because there is both dejure and defacto discrimination.
Sonagai,
You said foreigners “have every right” to try to change how they are perceived and treated in Korean society. Despite the existence of the Human Rights Office, this isn’t a generally agreed-upon right in Korea, obviously. So why do foreigners have “every right?” Your implication is that non-discrimination is, or should be, a universal value which transcends particular, actual societies.
“…dejure and defacto discrimination.”
Laws and customs both arise from a society’s values, and how it understands reality. As a member of this society, I may value abstract principles (Freedom, Democracy), or I may value the actual society in which they appear. Which do you think is more important?
o.t. I was bitten by a parrot last weekend. Really painful, and not healing quickly at all.
“You said foreigners “have every right” to try to change how they are perceived and treated in Korean society. Despite the existence of the Human Rights Office, this isn’t a generally agreed-upon right in Korea, obviously. So why do foreigners have “every right?”
People living in a society have a right to cooperate together to change things they don’t like. This is part of what makes human societies dynamic.
The elderly American man and other foreigners who feel that certain laws or regulations are unfair do not need permission from 46 million Koreans to use the services of an office organized by the government for that very purpose. To say that the right of foreigners to seek change isn’t “a generally agreed upon right in Korea” is your personal viewpoint. Period. Even if I agree with you for argument’s sake, remember that prior to the Civil Rights movement, most Americans did not view people of color as equal citizens under the law. Likewise, foreign passport-holding ethnic Koreans in Japan have long agitated for the abolition of laws and regulations which they regard as discriminatory.
“Laws and customs both arise from a society’s values, and how it understands reality. As a member of this society, I may value abstract principles (Freedom, Democracy), or I may value the actual society in which they appear. Which do you think is more important? “
I think your question is a red herring. Keep sputtering.
Here’s the deal,
Just because you pay taxes in Korea doesn’t mean squat. When you turn on the faucet, is there running water? That’s your tax Won at work. When it gets dark outside, does the street lights turn on? Again, your taxes at work.
Think you’re discriminated against? How many of you had to serve a mandatory 3 years in the Korean military? You cant have your cake and eat it too.
I agree with Netizen Kim. I used to have this argument with my Chinese citizen friends who had been in Korea for 2,3, even 5 generations. They would say they pay taxes and get nothing in return, and I would ask if the road in front of their homes are paved. Now, however, Korea does allow long-term foreigners the right to vote in local elections. Chinese (hwagyo) still don’t have to go to the military, though. (Some did serve as interpreters in the Korean War, however.)
In the meantime I think talking about discrimination in any language other than Korean is interesting and a fine academic pursuit, but contributes to substantial change about as much as waving Mexican flags at immigrant rights protests in the U.S.
“In the meantime I think talking about discrimination in any language other than Korean is interesting and a fine academic pursuit, but contributes to substantial change about as much as waving Mexican flags at immigrant rights protests in the U.S.”
I doubt any Marmot’s discussion has ever contributed to substantial change. I speak Korean well enough to leave my two cents worth on a Chosun message board, but I don’t think that’s going to “contribute to substantial change” either, and without a Korean national ID card, you and I are shut out of most Korean language forums anyway.
“what does is mean to be Korean ?”
Korea would be wise not to let foreigners to deconstruct the meaning of the national identity.
“Think you’re discriminated against? How many of you had to serve a mandatory 3 years in the Korean military? You cant have your cake and eat it too.”
Oh, so by your logic Korean women are second class citizens because they didn’t serve in the military. Nice try.
Well, Korean women are second class citizens, given the widespread discrimination against them in the workplace. In fact, civil service applicants are awarded points for military service. Given the highly competitive nature of securing government jobs, those few points make a difference. It’s easy enough to tell women that they can just join the military if they want the extra points, but that is ignoring the reality that women have a shorter shelf-life than men, for job ads with age limits almost always set a lower age requirement for women.
Sonagi,
I’m not sure I understand your second paragraph (39). African Americans weren’t immigrants, for one. And again, it seems you’re applying a (to you) universal, abstract principle to this situation, which is a mistake, I think.
“I think your question is a red herring.”
Nah, this question is important. Is one’s primary allegiance to a set of abstract principles, or to an actual, existing society? These two kinds of allegiances are not necessarily complementary.
“Keep sputtering.”
That’s a bit antagonistic, don’t you think?
o.t. The parrot bite is starting to get better, finally.
“Korea would be wise not to let foreigners to deconstruct the meaning of the national identity.”
That old ‘Are we losing our national identity?’ fear mongering trick doesn’t work on me. I’ve heard it so many times before in Canada, it’s starting to sound like a broken record.
Actually, national identity as we generally know it is artificial: it is often created by a government trying to manipulate nationalistic sentiment and it rarely reflects the complex reality (or rather realities) of its citizens. Either way, loss of national identity is inevitable because all societies are in constant evolution as a result of the (mainly) innner and (sometimes) outer influence that are place upon it (generally by its members). We just don’t notice the process as it is generally a slow one in democratic societies.
You say it isn’t my right to lodge a complaint. Well, the Korean government says otherwise. Slowly, the rest of Korea is joining in. You think Korea will remain in stasis while the rest of the world adapts? Too late.
My God, open your eyes. Korea will become less discriminitory because it is in its best interest, or so LG, Samsung and Hyundai believe. Sorry, they’re running the show and you’re not.
Now, if you think that this is a bad thing, diminishing discrimination because it is such a wonderful and integral part of Koreanness, then that is subject to a whole new debate.
I do live here. I like it here. I will continue to complain and Korea will continue to grant me that right because it believes that right for me exists.
Hmmm, three years of butt play to get a free subway token later in life or plop down a 1000 won? Okay Netizen Kim, you win that one. You’ve earned your free ride.
“I like it here. I will continue to complain…”
Cheap, but still…
I think you confuse my right to have a voice with you and some others begrudging me that right.
On the small islands of your posts you grant me no dignity and therefore I have none.
Yet on this peninsula the government thinks I should have a voice, that it is of value. They have deigned to grant me a modicum of dignity, otherwise there wouldn’t be a “Whiney Foreigner’s Complaint Department”,(that might not actually be the name). Some people disagree which is their right.
Wherever you call home I certainly wouldn’t begrudge you your voice. No matter how perfect your world, no matter how NICE you find it, I’m sure there are areas for improvement. Your unique perspective is not necessarily a bad thing. Allowing you that voice is tantamount to conceding you dignity. If the government and its people do not grant you that dignity then you have none.
The Nazis allowed the Jews they could find and control no dignity. Therefore the ones they shoveled into ovens had none. But I believe it speaks more of the Nazis than the Jews.
I am generalizing. There are those who accomplish dignity despite the odds. Speak out in the face of horrible adversity. Luckily, my life is not that dire.
There is one thing I do have. I will use a sports analogy. Many teams who lose say the other team was lucky or the umpires or referees blew a call. But the winners have the ultimate argument. Scoreboard! I am, I can and I do.
Wherever you are I hope you have scoreboard too. I know some people don’t.
“I believe this also means I can’t get an F-5 visa since the only path to an F-5 is via an F-2.”
There is a path via D8 if you’ve 500,000USD to spare….
Random, arbitrary acts of discrimination is necessary to remind the foreigner of their proper places, else they soon forget.
“Random, arbitrary acts of discrimination is necessary to remind the foreigner of their proper places, else they soon forget.”
Does that apply to my four year old - Korean/Canadian dual citizen - too? I’ve lived here more than a decade and have permanent residency, so what about me? Do you think that green card holders - or other foreigners in the United States or Canada, for example, regardless of visa status - need these constructive reminders also?
apparently, most ROK men hold grudges against all who qualify for goon dae, but somehow dodge it.
They want ROK women to enlist, and especially overseas Korean males making won in ROK to change their citizenships and enlist.
Does ROK army still waive military duty for what they define as non-full Koreans?
the goon dae issue is still a huge issue, evidently shown by the recent event, where some dude held a bogus easy serve gig, finally confessing after interogation.
ah, the ROK men. Did you know that some war movie heroes and macho men in Korean cinema never were in Goon Dae?
Such hate. It’s like the hot weather.