As a big Wikipedia fan, I looked more into the recent Chosun created brouhaha about the Tokdo dispute on Wiki. Interestingly enough, Wiki has a page it calls “Lamest Edit Wars“. Guess who makes the list? Both Tokdo and the Sea of Japan controversy. I do like the way the dispute is summarized:
A group of sinking volcanic rocks has been claimed by both Japan and Korea since really really long ago. Evidence of ownership for either side rests on hard-to-read decaying pieces of old paper…Luckily, at least the title of the article has been settled on…or has it?
24 Comments
Yes, I wrote about this back in February.
http://english.ohmynews.com/ar.....p;rel_no=1
Well, then who gets the “atta boy”? Hmmm…
A Wikipedia fan? Here is another opinion.
“Wikipedia is a dangerous tool. It spreads ignorance and error under the guise of knowledge, and should be treated with scorn by anyone concerned with fact and scholarship.”
Try this post called Wikinonsense to find out why:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/ste.....ense.thtml
here’s the entire snip:
‘A group of sinking volcanic rocks has been claimed by both Japan and Korea since really really long ago. Evidence of ownership for either side rests on hard-to-read decaying pieces of old paper. This is not a silly dispute as the rocks have important economic and military value, yada yada yada. Serious Wikipedians (of Korean or Japanese citizenship) may even choose to make these rocks their place of residence (living there not required!) to bolster their case. This article extensively documents every little factoid that could possibly indicate ownership by one country, with each, of course, having a countering statement. Few Wikipedians of non-Japanese or Korean descent are part of the discussion, yet everyone claims their POV is NPOV. As properly befitting this major political issue, most edit summaries begin with “rv…” Luckily, at least the title of the article has been settled on…or has it?’
i wonder if drammy left out most of the snip because it makes the japanese look equally foolish. hmmmmmm….
‘I looked more into the recent Chosun created brouhaha about the Tokdo dispute on Wiki…’
the chosun was merely reporting about the actions of wikipedia. the chosun ilbo did not create this controversy since it was the japanese who protested the name. it’s interesting that that doesn’t garner the same kind of ridicule from you as it does for your wife’s people.
some of korea’s ‘friends’ tell her she should just remain silent when the japanese start making claims to korean territory. these people are not korea’s friends as their advice is poor. koreans HAVE to say something when japanese make attempts to change the names of a places IN KOREA! oh, and THAT’S the difference between dokto and the east sea controversy.
you know about the east sea controversy, right, guys? you know it’s the issue that causes many of you to attack koreans for being so allegedly juvenile? interesting we don’t see the same when the situation is reversed.
like minded people like yourselves may agree with what you say about dokto and this and that about korea, but don’t think those fair minded people who pass by here can’t see your contradictions. that is my only obi wan konobi.
I guess there are foolish people - i.e. people who care more about the rocks than the state of the environment, corruption, or education, etc - on either side of the Dokto issue. Like flies to shit, I imagine they would be the ones who would be drawn to a Wiki Editfest related to the topic.
However, Japanese I’ve met and foreign friends who live and work in Japan tend not to have heard of the territory in question, and in the event that they have, couldn’t care less. A few wacko gangster types in their vans might care, but most don’t seem to. As a Japanese guy I met said to me with a shrug when I mentioned the dispute to him, “We have lots of islands in Japan. I don’t know those ones.”
In Korea, as anybody who has been here more than a few days quickly realizes, this is hardly the case. Do Japanese kindergartens encourage their children to produce artwork depicting Koreans defeating the evil Japanese attempting to seize Dokto? Well, they do here, and whether the Koreans are justified in their position (by the way, I reckon they are) over the islets, this kind of behavior is disgraceful.
If I had the impression that this was the way the issue was looked at in Japan, I would be the first to say that would be wrong too.
Well put Pawikirogi the Koreans have long said the Japanese claim to Dokdo is an integral part of Japan’s colonization of Korea and their expansionist policies during the Russo~Japanese War. Sadly enough they haven’t presented documents and maps to back up these assertions.
That’s why I’ve been working on painstakingly translating materials from the Japanese Imperial Naval Archives. These documents show that Japan’s claim to Dokdo is based on a military land grab and inseparable from their other land appropriations (including Chinese territory) in 1905.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....tions.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ions2.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ions3.html
The following pages I’m working on will detail the Japanese Imperials Navy’s surveys of Dokdo before the island was annexed. The logbooks of the battle cruisers Niitaka, Tsushima and Hashidate are proof positve the Japanese Navy surveyed, mapped and zoned Dokdo for military watchtowers and telegraph lines before the annexation of the island. The pages should be finished in a few weeks.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files3.html
To honour Japan’s 1905 claim to Dokdo is to reward their colonial ambitions. In this case the is truth behind the bluster of the Koreans.
Then there is also the dispute over the Tsushima Basin … “The ocean feature is known both under the Japanese name Tsushima basin and under the Korean name Ulleung basin. There is also lots of disagreement which name is the more commonly used name in English for a place that pretty much nobody knows.”
‘However, Japanese I’ve met and foreign friends who live and work in Japan tend not to have heard of the territory in question, and in the event that they have, couldn’t care less….’
then, who’s making all the fuss at wiki on the japanese side? just some right wing gangsters?
‘couldn’t care less…’
yeah, why should they? it ain’t korea claiming something they own, is it? it ain’t korea that’s brutalized their country and actually tried to erase their culture, is it?
context. surely you’re smart enough to see that.
“just some right wing gangsters?”
I forgot to include a few Japanese internet geeks - who no doubt get off on the guaranteed response they can expect from some Korean netizens to their provocations - and a handful of fishermen in Maizuru prefecture. As opposed to almost every Korean. Period.
“it ain’t korea claiming something they own, is it? it ain’t korea that’s brutalized their country and actually tried to erase their culture, is it?”
Korea owns the islets. That won’t change, so relax. The Japanese aren’t going to try to go to war over them. I don’t think events that ended in the first half of the 20th century - but somehow tied to a territorial dispute not unlike hundreds around the globe today - justify the teaching of hate in Korean kindergarden classrooms. Koreans are better than this.
“then, who’s making all the fuss at wiki on the japanese side? just some right wing gangsters? ”
A few losers and rabblerousers, that’s all. It doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority couldn’t care less about the issue.
PS. You do know that many of the Japanese right wing gangsters are ethnic Koreans, right? Prime example of how gangs tend to attract the kind of people who’d sell their grandmother for the right amount of money.
‘I forgot to include a few Japanese internet geeks -who no doubt get off on the guaranteed response they can expect from some Korean netizens to their provocations - and a handful of fishermen in Maizuru prefecture. As opposed to almost every Korean. Period.’
period? hmmmm…japanese government makes proclamation every year that dokto is theirs. i think it’s a bit more than right wingers and internet geeks, or as you say ‘period’. and like i said before, it ain’t korea making claims to japanese land. lastly, can i ask you? what’s your advice to the japanese government and it’s proclamation that they own the rocks and about attempts to change the name of places that exist in korea? so far, you only seem to have advice for one side.
‘PS. You do know that many of the Japanese right wing gangsters are ethnic Koreans, right? Prime example of how gangs tend to attract the kind of people who’d sell their grandmother for the right amount of money.’
the poster who wrote this statement spends quite a bit of time slamming koreans for their racism. and yet, he makes some of the most racist comments on this board.
gang acticity common amongst marginalized people. with regard to yakuza, being korean is everything and nothing at all. the poster will have a difficult time understanding the last sentence.
its similar across the board in korea remember all the protests and violence regarding the FTA with the US however the week after that was signed an FTA with the EU was on the table for negotiations and not a single protest about it!
koreans hate japanese and they hate americans passionately period!
I think most japanese don’t give a damn about Tokdo. The subject never came up once when I was teaching there and I talked about Korea quite alot.
Yet another wikihohumwar that involves Korea…further down the list but i’m sure no less important to our “Host” nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsushima_Basin
“lastly, can i ask you? what’s your advice to the japanese government and it’s proclamation that they own the rocks and about attempts to change the name of places that exist in korea? so far, you only seem to have advice for one side.”
Well, I’d tell them that I think they’re wrong. And that I don’t think their claim is valid. And that maybe they should stop teasing the Koreans. It isn’t very nice.
However, in case you haven’t noticed, it seems to be the Koreans, often at a national level, who deliberately whip people into a frenzy over this dispute (one that they are in no danger of losing, by the way) all the while reminding everybody of the occupation to the point of promoting hatred against the Japanese.
As stated, this may be a minor issue in Shimane prefecture (I mistakenly called it Maizaru prefecture earlier - Maizaru is a port city within the prefecture I think) and with the usual gang of rightist nuts over there, but most Japanese who’ve even heard of Dokto/Takeshima couldn’t care less. Maybe that stings worse than the Japanese claim itself.
Just out of curiosity, what name changes of places in Korea are the Japanese attempting?
“‘PS. You do know that many of the Japanese right wing gangsters are ethnic Koreans, right? Prime example of how gangs tend to attract the kind of people who’d sell their grandmother for the right amount of money.’
the poster who wrote this statement spends quite a bit of time slamming koreans for their racism. and yet, he makes some of the most racist comments on this board.
gang acticity common amongst marginalized people. with regard to yakuza, being korean is everything and nothing at all. the poster will have a difficult time understanding the last sentence.”
Whatever, Pawi. I’m a racist just because I often call you on your bullshit. The reason I have difficulty understanding your last sentence because it lacks certain elements I would like to find as a reader, such as a logical progression and proper grammar.
Are you trying to tell me that these criminals wouldn’t be gangsters if they weren’t in Japan? I doubt it would make any difference if they were in South Korea. Sorry, but Koreans being oppressed in Japan is hardly true anymore. Sure, in the 1940’s and 1950’s, but that still sounds like a convenient excuse that belittles the Koreans who did not turn to a life of crime to make ends meet.
Have you ever met a Korean Japanese? I’ve met several ethnic Koreans while traveling in Japan and they seemed pretty happy to me. They were very nice people, too. I find it offensive that you would suggest otherwise.
“being korean is everything and nothing at all”
I’ve posted something about the Uyoku dantai before. It’s too late for me to go through the trouble of finding all the information I had, so just take a look for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
Yup, some of these groups are manned by Koreans gangsters. Think about it. These people are Japanese ultra-nationalists, not the victims of Japanese society that you paint them to be.
PS. …is because…
I predict in about 20-40 years, due to global warming, there will be no more Tokto controversy.
‘Maybe that stings worse…’
or maybe that’s what gets you off. nobody cares? japanese government cares. you seemed to have ignored that instead focusing on whatever makes you think you’re right. and i’ll say it again:
it ain’t korea trying to claim japanese land, now, is it?
‘Just out of curiosity, what name changes of places in Korea are the Japanese attempting?’
did you read this thread?
“or maybe that’s what gets you off. nobody cares? japanese government cares. you seemed to have ignored that instead focusing on whatever makes you think you’re right. and i’ll say it again:
it ain’t korea trying to claim japanese land, now, is it?”
Doesn’t get me off that few people in Japan care. Neither does the fact that most people in southern California don’t really care that the Anaheim Ducks are in the Stanley Cup Finals, while the opposite is true in Ontario, if not all of Canada at the moment, when it comes to the Ottawa Senators. It just is.
“did you read this thread?”
Yes. Again, what places IN Korea are the Japanese attempting to rename? (Seoul? Busan? Some club in Hannam-dong?)
Please note that I have always supported the status quo - that is, Korea owning the islets - and don’t expect this to change.
The only other group of people who care more about Tokto, besides Koreans, are expats. Some even have entire blogs dedicated to it. I wont name names but one in particular starts with an “O”. Some expats have even lost their jobs because of their passion for Tokto. Again, I wont name names. Other expat blogs wont go that far, but will continuously remind you over and over again that no one cares about Tokto, despite the fact that no one cares about Tokto.
#18…probably. That might be why they are getting worked up about it. It would be difficult for Korea to make any claims for the territory if the surrounding islands disappear underwater. Kind of like Danemark making a move for Hans Island before the polar icecap melts in the hopes of gaining control of the Northern Passage.
#21…lol.
Oops, wouldn’t want to upset Danes, it’s Denmark.