Sometimes, these posts write themselves:
Cummings wins award: Bruce Cummings, left, professor of history at the University of Chicago, shakes hands with former President Kim Dae-jung at Kim’s residence in Donggyo-dong, Seoul, Tuesday. Cummings, a world -renowned Korean specialist, won the Kim Dae-jung Academic Award on Monday. The award was designated in honor of Kim’s contribution to enhancing democracy, human rights and peace on the Korean Peninsula.
Yep.
43 Comments
Two residents of Fantasyland.
The link doesn’t say if the award includes a substantial cash prize or not.
If there is — a rep from the North should have been present to receive a “piece of the action”.
Huh? Pretty solipsistic. Usually, it’s the recipient who is honored for fulfilling the aspirations the award is created to promote.
Actually, the North’s representative was to be there to HAND OUT the money to Cummings, but canceled because he said the funds were still in transit.
I don’t want to spark another Romanization flame war, but I am interested as to the basis for your choice of spelling for the esteemed profesor’s surname?
Is it too much to ask for a little respect for Cuming? There are a lot worse “experts” getting around in this field, former Newsweek hacks, US Ambassadors, and the like.
I don’t think its too much to ask, most of us here are students of Korea, but going by the comments section, none are anywhere in the league of Cumings.
Blogging and posting anonymously on chatboards is a different kettle of fish to well researched academic work that provokes thought and changes society.
If only the academic work were well-researched instead of cherry-picked to advance the (factually incorrect) political viewpoint of the author.
You can’t go around calling peoples opinions as “incorrect”.
People have different views, you can disagree about facts, differ on opinions, but one can only call another’s viewpoint as incorrect when making a tongue-in-cheek comment.
Mr. Carr said Cuming’s political viewpoint was based on incorrect facts, calling into question that viewpoint. A little different than saying someone’s opinion is incorrect, which I think is perfectly fine to do–but then that’s just my opinion.
dlatn. you can differ in opinion, and argue about what the “facts” of any case are, but once a “fact” is established by overwhelming evidence, refusing to accept it does not constitute intellectual disagreement. Rather, it ia a refusal to recognize any reality that contradicts your previous assertions. Cumings previous arguments that a case could be made that the South (ROK) started the war rested on a selective reading of the evidence available at the time. Taking a side makes one a polemecist, not an historian. Once the Russians released corroborating evidence that the North did indeed start the war, Cumings carefully constructed arguments to the contrary entered the realm of fiction. There is still ample evidence he can use to make a case that the Korean war was civil in nature. But to imply that the responsibility for the destruction caused by the Korean war rests on both sides is to ignore the sine qua non rule. The dogs of total war were unleashed by the north. That is now established fact. No tongue. No cheek.
As for the clan name, Cummings is the more common spelt version, so its use is likely unintentional. Robert the Bruce would be proud to see it rendered in celtic “Cumings” original, but Brendan’s branch are from the southwesterly side of the Irish Sea. (or he’d be a “Kerr” Carr)
Just how did Cumings enhance democracy, human rights and peace in the North? He is not interested in any of those when it pertains to the North. Even if the North attacked again, he would find some way to blame it on the South and its lackeys, the US.
Besides BR Myers’ skewering of him in the Atlantic Monthly last year, it seems that the good Professor is much more refuted amongst us than amongst the “foreign” Koreanist professoriate. Am I misinformed, are they gutless, or is there a third option?
nice to see people really making an effort with comments on this blog Lirelou, however I disagree with your comprehension of what Cumings wrote (if you are meaning Origins?). The book is still in print I believe if you would care to re-read it.
Wow, lirelou is good. As I understand it my family emigrated to America in the 19th century from Oughterard on Loch Corrib in County Galway — far West of Ireland. Yes, Boston was the destination. If the family traits of the American Carr family hold true, I’d expect most of the Oughterard Carrs today are either currently in jail (excuse me, gaol) or recently released.
I agree with dlatn, Cumings does not argue that the South started general warfare. He only asserts that they started limited skirmishes on June 25, 1950 that the North deliberately used as provocation to engage in general warfare; skirmishes that had gone on in the Ongjin Peninsula for much of 1949 and 1948 and were started and engaged in by both sides equally throughout that period. Of course it never led to general warfare. If you read origins you will see that he talks about the North deliberately waiting for the return of the joseonuiyonggun from the civil war in China, connecting railways to make the move to full engagement more convenient and the mass coordination all along the 38th parallel that was not accidental. I mean Cumings is biased, probably more than most, but then so is everyone. Most of my Korean professors refute a lot of the things he writes about on regular basis, but they always emphasize the amount of effort and research he put into proving his opinion. If you feel so strongly that Cumings is the worst thing that could have happened to the study of modern Korean history then I would encourage you all to put in the research it would take to write your own academic book and use it selectively to refute him. The truth will end up being in the middle somewhere anyway.
#12 colour me impressed!
#13. A very interesting and a fair assessment of the red author. Your example of what occurred on the peninsula after WWII illustrates the amount of Korean history that is unknown to me.
The only prize I want to see Kim Dae-jong handing over is the one he should give back to Oslo that was granted under false pretenses.
The only prize I want to see Kim Dae-jong handing over is the one he should give back to Oslo that was granted under false pretenses.
Norway has had mutually respectful diplomatic relations with North Korea since 1973, has fully supported Kim Dae Jung’s Sunshine Policy, and has always tried to advance the cause of peace on the Korean peninsula, as well as the Middle East and Sri Lanka. Therefore they could care less about what Americans think about North Korea.
^ ^
I doubt that in general and know it ain’t so when it comes to banking.
slim, Nobel Peace Prize is a political prize.
Should they revoke Arafat’s prize?
When he died, the Jewish friends I know were celebrating in NYC. They were talking about all this secret money Arafat smuggled into a private overseas account. This account was never brought up by major news outlets.
Should they take the prize away from Nelson Mandela?
Ask a former South African white dude, who white flighted the area.
Kim Dae Jung’s prize wasn’t based on North Korea alone. I think they credited him for surviving political persecution from the 60s to the late 80s. And being a direct or indirect reason for political change in Korea. Plus, he freed Jun Doo Hwan and Roh Tae Woo from jail. A political, but peace making gesture. Which is, very disagreeable to me, and one reason why Kim Yong Sam had a beef with him. Kim Dae Jung essentially un-did one of the primary accomplishments of Kim Yong Sam.
And you know, what? Even after freeing them, close to 0% have even the remotest good feelings toward Kim Dae Jung in East Korea.
You can call him a commy-helper, etc, but because of him, Jun Doo Hwan and Park Jung Hee were pressured by US, Carter, and Reagan to ditch military rule.
Surely, Kim Yong Sam opened Nork up a little bit first, (Kim Il Sung supposedly assasinated by Kim Jong Il before it could happen), but during Kim Dae Jung, is credited with the reason why you see a Kaesong complex, a train test run, once a year political, tourism of North Korea, ngo and religious aid organizations to Nork, paid visits between separated families, etc.. Of course, with $ as the bait.
actually, I wonder how the ROK govt is able to hand aid to North Korea, without parliament approving the $.
Is this a relic of Lt. Okamoto’s days?
Does the President have some sort of power to use tax dollars as he sees it best used or something without approving from congressional bodies like the US system?
It’s not right.
Even $1 spent on North Korea should be done with reps of the people approving it, not the executive office alone.
None of Norway’s views on North Korea changes the fraudulent nature of Kim’s Nobel, which has no more merit than an Olympic medal won on steroids and is only slightly less of a fraud than Arafat’s. He accepted that prize knowing ful well that the 6.15 summit that wsa key to his nomination would not have taken place without the $500 million bribe.
Well, slim, isn’t that the prerogative of the Nobel committee (and not you)?
All great men and leaders have at least one flaw. Rev Martin Luther King Jr was an adulterer, Thomas Alva Edison shamelessly stole ideas from Tesla, Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, Abraham Lincoln was a borderline fascist, Thomas Jefferson had a black slave mistress, etc. Kim Dae Jung has his $500 million deal. It’s not like he tried to pocket that money for his own personal enrichment and gain. Which is a big difference between him and some other former leaders of Korea. Posterity and future students of history will yawn at these puny accusations that will have been eclipsed by bigger accomplishments of greater good.
baduk says Kim Dae Jung replaced heads of the military with Jeolla people.
Well, why shouldn’t he?
I didn’t know that, but it sort of makes sense.
When Kim Dae Jung was elected to office, I remember hearing on Kyopo radio in LA that
“the ROK military announced that there will be no military coup and they will respect the outcome of the election.”
I’m paraphrasing, but I’m not lying.
The year is 1997. A military coup in the ROK because an opposition party member wins the Presidency?
That’s as backward as Indonesia and Thailand in terms of democracy and progress.
Furthermore, isn’t it customary even in the US for Presidents to name their party affiliations into top military positions when they win, and people they know?
You know, William Cohen, Wesley Clark, replaced Bush 1’s, and Bush 2 prompty changed them to people he knew.
Kim Dae Jung had more of a reason. A military that formally announces they won’t stage a coup? After a Presidential election?
The fact that he did so much research is all the more damming since one of the primary flaws is omission of facts contrary to the point he was attempting to prove. To me that is far worse than a mere oversight; the amount of research he did means it’s almost inconceivable that he was unaware of what he selectively left out.
Overkill.
Nestizen Kim, Ouch, some very good points on #23. I think what concerns most of us, though, is an underlying fear that any reunification that meets terms acceptable to the Kim Dynasty will turn out not to have been for the “greater good”.
Jo-el, It has been years since I read “origens”, perhaps it’s time to re-read it.
You really think so, Lirelou? Sexual infidelity, an act committed by a substantial percentage of the populations of both Korea and the US, hardly compares with large-scale bribery.
No, Kim Dae-jung didn’t pocket the money himself; even worse - he put $500 million into the hands of a tyrant who works political dissidents to death in horrific concentration camps. I’m sure that $500 million was put to very good use upgrading electric fences and hiring additional guards to hunt down and kill fleeing North Koreans.
There is considerable irony in speaking of what KDJ did for Kim Jong-il, considering Cumings’ portrayal in “Korea’s Place in the Sun” of Reagan inviting Chun to the Whitehouse – which saved DJ – as some sinister tacit approval of what happened at Kwangju. If Reagan hadn’t done that, KDJ (probably) would be dead rather than helping to prop up a regime that systematically kills political prisoners in concentration camps. Yeah, the irony is thick.
since the death of Kim Il Sung, the famine, and Kim Dae Jung’s buy-in visit of North Korea, North Korea has lost something.
Do you know what that is?
Nobody in North Korea really believes in Juche anymore.
Nobody believes that Kim Jong Il is God.
People from high rank to low rank take every chance they have to flee. Even Kim Jong Il’s very own niece chose suicide in France versus returning to Juche World. His own son tried to flee to Japan.
I think that’s pretty significant.
No one believes in any religion if hardships continue indefinately.
People of North Korea know. When they see South Koreans, they know they’ve been living a lie. They know they’re so behind in the times.
I think that’s significant.
They were running gulags way before the $500 mil came as well.
versus before, they didn’t know. They believed. You heard of Yodok like camps, but never ever saw it on CNN. Who gave the footage to CNN? North Koreans themselves. Who saw the light.
What caused them to do such a betrayal of their own nation, tradition, and social struture?
I suggest the direct or indirect contact with South Koreans. And the hunger.
Better the bastinado than the Nobel “Peace” Prize!
I don’t think trying to go to Disneyland is the same as trying to “flee to Japan” to escape NK.
Also, probably a lot of North Koreans *do* still buy the cult message. Even the disaffected defectors have a hard time abandoning that level of brainwashing, at first. I’ve seen this for myself.
The funny thing I saw is that Korean book stores are still selling more copies of earlier books by Cumings (before the Soviet archives were made public) than his later publications where he’s admitting that North had started the war.
Korean book stores stock a lot of Chomsky too. Another waste of time.
Ah…..Noam Chomsky……I recall my professor trying to shove Chomsky down our throats as a resource. A conservative school at that! The better part of Chompsky ended up a puddle in the bed.
The funny thing I saw is that Korean book stores are still selling more copies of earlier books by Cumings
Cumings gave the publishing rights of the Origins I and II to Yuksabipyungsa, so the available English-language print of that work is Korean.
Maybe the tired old KDJ thought he was meeting Omar Sharif.
Buying a Nobel Peace Prize at the expense of the prolonged suffering of 23 million people and not doing anything to advance the cause of peace is hardly a puny accusation — at least in the reality-based community in which most of us are forced to operate. The prize is tainted and if Kim had any integrity left, he’d recognize that.
Back to topic, Cummings is a perfect fit for a prize associated with DJ and North Korea.
slim, tell me, do you think the US is doing Cubans a favor with the sanctions?
Do you see Cuba collapsing when Castro dies in the next 5 years?
Slim, I lost all respect for the Nobel prize when they gave it to Kissinger and Le Duc Tho. Mr. Tho (first name), to his credit, never accepted the money.
wjk: I’ll bite that red herring.
1 - Sanctions have certainly done Castro a favor, they allow him to blame the failures of his regime on the U.S.
2 - They are purely political, and an example of one of many flaws in a democratic system, where a polticially active minority community can kidnap an issue. (All the communist regimes that collapsed had full trade and diplomatic relations with the U.S. - but that point is moot on SW 8th Street.)
3 - Cuba will outlast even Castro, but the system he instituted will change - or collapse. The changes will likely be incremental, but rapid.
4 - Some of the Castro regime’s social changes will endure.
Never let your sense of morals stop you from doing what is right.
Richardson,
“Also, probably a lot of North Koreans *do* still buy the cult message. Even the disaffected defectors have a hard time abandoning that level of brainwashing, at first. I’ve seen this for myself”
I do know that NK people “do” love their country and their government even they defected.
another perspective for you,
once I talked to a former NK special force soldier who defected to SK. He told me that
the NK people don’t really believe in Juche no more. You should distinguish what people say in front of the camera something like the discovery channel with the other people watching you and what they really think.
Anyway, he told me that what NK people are still buying from the cult message is US is the greatest enemy to destroy *not only NK regime but also to kill or enslave all NK people.*
Believe it or not, this is what I think the true mindset behind the ordinary NK people, the great fear of US.
So it will be interesting how Kim Jung il will brainwash NK people and whether it would work if US open a door to NK.
“So it will be interesting how Kim Jung il will brainwash NK people and whether it would work if US open a door to NK.”
The problem is that even if the US were to open doors to NK, KJI would milk it for its propoganda value, because he can’t do an about face regarding the US. It is a fundamental scapegoat propping up his regime, just as with Castro.
Heck, the US can’t even win the propoganda war with its own allies. There are plenty in South Korea who would be glad to tell NK defectors about all the evils of the US.